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frustration / access concentration

frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/6/13 3:02 PM
Hi,

Been lurking this forum for a while now: need some help.

I've been meditating for 1,5 years now. I've gone the last 239 days without missing a day of meditating.
I'm currently meditating 50 minutes sitting (eyes open) + 10 minutes walking (immediately after sitting) every day.
The meditation style I do is the Mahasi Sayadaw noting-style meditation.

Here's the problem: I haven't even reached Access Concentration yet.
This is really frustrating to me. I'm really motivated to meditate, but it seems like I'll never reach Access Concentration.
I'm afraid this will take away my motivation to meditate if it will take me much longer.

I quote Daniel in MCTB:
Until you can get into access concentration, you ain’t got squat.

... but the rest of the paragraph on access concentration is so short I don't know what to expect.
How long did it take you guys to reach Access Concentration, and under what circumstances?

I'm also getting really frustrated by the amount of 'mind-fog' I have in daily life. It's like I'm distracted and 'turned inwards' 95% of the time.
It has always been this way and it's holding me back in getting my law degree. How am I supposed to focus on anything if I'm always 'zoned out'?

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/6/13 4:23 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Hi,

Welcome to the forum.


How long did it take you guys to reach Access Concentration, and under what circumstances?
Could you supply the experiential definition of "access concentration" that you're using?
By sharing the definition that you're using people may be able to more accurately share in your thread.

I'm also getting really frustrated by the amount of 'mind-fog' I have in daily life. It's like I'm distracted and 'turned inwards' 95% of the time.
It has always been this way and it's holding me back in getting my law degree. How am I supposed to focus on anything if I'm always 'zoned out'?
Is this after lunch/meals/snacks?
Are you dependent on caffeine stuff?
As two starter considerations: a) removal of gluten from your entire diet for 7-days, and b) removal of starchy carbohydrates from your pre-work/study meals and snacks. Have you already adhered to such efforts for 7-10 days?

Are you exercising (getting your heart rate up to the point where it is hard to speak) and how often?

Thanks for your post.


Best wishes,
Katy

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/6/13 7:24 PM as a reply to katy steger.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/6/13 8:48 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
What exactly are you doing when you meditate, mind wise?

I have found that it doesn't matter if you meditate 2-5 hours aday if it is not quality meditation. If you don't feel your concentration strengthening then it is very likely you are not applying enough mental/directed effort, and most importantly, the object that the effort is directed at should be consistent in each practice session - at least I have found this to be most helpful. 10 minutes of quality meditation is far superior than 1 hour of poor quality meditation. What helps me is if I keep my wits and intent about me as I am meditating, and have a general idea of what I am striving for in the background of my mind.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/7/13 1:24 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
katy steger:
Could you supply the experiential definition of "access concentration" that you're using?

I quote Daniel in MCTB: "the ability to stay consistently with your chosen object with relative ease to the general exclusion of distractions."
This has happened to me maybe 3 times in total over the last 1,5 years. And it seems to be completely random in when it happens.

About the 'mind-fog':
  • I think it's almost all the time. When I wake up I'm already in this distracted state of mind. I don't know if it's worse after eating.
  • I tried drinking coffee to increase my ability to focus, but I feel like it's just not working. I still drink some coffee, but I don't 'need' it.
  • I heard eating no gluten might help, but I never tried it. Are the things you list under A and B two seperate things, or should they be combined? I study throughout the day so removing bread from my pre-study meals would be almost impossible. I did try eating Primal/Paleo for 1 week (about half a year ago), but it was too expensive and I became grumpy because I couldn't eat enough to still my hunger.
  • I lift weights 3-4 times a week, but I don't do cardio (yet), so I don't raise my heartbeat that much.

Nikolai .:

Thanks, I will try it.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/7/13 5:01 AM as a reply to Red Beard.
I first got access concentration on retreat. Try a week long retreat. Get access concentration. Then realise that you don't need access concentration for insight.

Access concentration - concentration on one object. Momentary concentration - concentration on constantly changing objects.

You haven't described you mahasi style practice in detail, but as I understand it isn't going to get you to access concentration, if you are noting different objects (thinking, touching, sitting etc...), though you can still get very concentrated - just in a different way. If you want access concentration, you could try doing something like an anapanasati practice (with focus on nostril area rather than rising/falling of belly, which seems to be easier for most people), though as I suggest, a retreat would help.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/7/13 4:35 AM as a reply to Red Beard.
Hello

What you're describing seems a bit like ADHD. Please see a good psychiatrist about that. I emphasise "good" because, as you know, Ritalin is overprescribed. However it can be lifechanging for people who actualy have ADHD. I know of one person who wasted 2 decades of his life because of ADHD. It may not be pleasing for you to have to take Ritalin because of the precepts, but if the medication is for medicinal purposes, it is not a breach of the 5th precept.

If you have bipolar disorder or hypertension, you shouldn't take it. Otherwise, I think there's no problem.

Meanwhile, the best thing I can say to you, is for you to seize the "time waste" moments, such as washing dishes, sweeping, walking to work, etc. to practice mindfulness. It is a wonderful use of your time and will calm the hindrances.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/7/13 8:20 AM as a reply to Red Beard.
Hi,

I quote Daniel in MCTB: "the ability to stay consistently with your chosen object with relative ease to the general exclusion of distractions."
This has happened to me maybe 3 times in total over the last 1,5 years. And it seems to be completely random in when it happens.


Okay. This is the utility of providing one's definition. In the Anapanasati Sutta, these are the criteria for first jhana (which you probably already know):
First jhāna (pathamajjhana)
applied thought (vittaka)
sustained thought (vicāra)
rapture (pīti)
bliss (sukha)
one-pointedness (ekaggata)


So I have this question for you in regards to your ability to begin cultivating the first focused mental state (jhana), which could be preceded by something people call "Access Concentration", another step in a step-by-step logical training):
What is motivating you and your practice/efforts?

I lift weights 3-4 times a week, but I don't do cardio (yet), so I don't raise my heartbeat that much.
Cardio gives the body a different kind of energy than just weight bearing. If you can try ball-of-the-foot running in flat cheap shoe (no big heel pads, heel doesn't touch) on a treadmill/street/path or in place for just 7 minutes. Make those 7 minutes have a cardio effort that makes it hard to speak. Gently stretch calf muscles after this. Ball-of-the-foot running seems to put much of the surface impacting of running into the muscles (calves, gluts, quads) versus bones and joints (e.g., knee joint and lower back vertebrae)


I heard eating no gluten might help, but I never tried it. Are the things you list under A and B two seperate things, or should they be combined? I study throughout the day so removing bread from my pre-study meals would be almost impossible. I did try eating Primal/Paleo for 1 week (about half a year ago), but it was too expensive and I became grumpy because I couldn't eat enough to still my hunger.
Definitely try no gluten for 7 days. Then try slower sugars and less sugar when the mind needs to be alert. Example, yesterday I had collards, carrots, peas and spicey lentils--- those are all quite sugary so I did not have this with brown rice; the rice would have made me too tired, while the carbs from the veggies kept me full and alert (and very fortunate to be a being who can eat at will in the first place).

Lastly, how's your moral conduct? This is not a test, only to say that when we do/say things we personally find questionable, then the remorse/dread consumes the energy of our minds with distraction. Thus one can take one's regretful actions/speech and convert them into conscientiousness-- a skill of conduct that is grown like riding a bike, step-by-step.


Maybe none of these apply to you, maybe some do. Those are my thoughts, though emoticon Good luck.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/10/13 12:08 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
sawfoot _:
Try a week long retreat

I'm going to do this in the summer holiday (first time I will have the time).

Modus Ponens:
What you're describing seems a bit like ADHD.

I know. I don't want to use any medication, but I'm going to get checked soon.
I heard that many people with ADD benefit from certain diets, so I'm interested in that.

Modus Ponens:
Meanwhile, the best thing I can say to you, is for you to seize the "time waste" moments, such as washing dishes, sweeping, walking to work, etc. to practice mindfulness. It is a wonderful use of your time and will calm the hindrances.

Thanks. I try to do this a lot, but often I just don't think about doing it, because I'm too caught up in my thoughts. But when I do it, it's really relaxing!

katy steger:
What is motivating you and your practice/efforts?

My main driving factors are gaining concentration and reaching buddhahood/enlightenment/whatever you want to call it. The last one seems impossible from where I'm at right now, but I hope this will change if I ever get the ability to concentrate.

katy steger:
[Try cardio.] Definitely try no gluten for 7 days. Then try slower sugars and less sugar when the mind needs to be alert.

Will do. As a matter of fact: already started.

katy steger:
Lastly, how's your moral conduct?

I live by the eightfold path as much as I can. The only conflicting thing I can think of is that I eat meat, but I'm not sure I feel bad because of this.
I will stop eating meat at some point in my life, I'm certain of that. But as a 'poor' student I think it's 'justified' for me to still eat it.

I think searching distractions (facebook, movies, etc) as little as possible would help me in my 'quest for concentration', so I will also keep this in mind.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
11/16/13 9:34 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Red Beard,

I can relate. I also have ADHD. But meditation has improved it immensely although I still haven't gotten access concentration either.

As mentioned already on this thread I think you are doing the wrong type of meditation for what you want. Noting is an insight practice, it can help with concentration, but it is not specifically used for developing strong concentration. Noting is what Daniel recommends you do AFTER you have gotten access concentration.

To get access concentration you should be focusing on a single object and keeping your focus there. Such as the movements of your breath. You may want to check out Alan Wallace's book "The attention revolution"

Or his guided meditations over at his website.

I would also recommend the Paleo Diet. This diet helped with my concentration. Exercise is an obvious must. Good sleep is an obvious must, and so is avoiding just surfing the internet.

The Paleo Diet

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/18/14 11:33 AM as a reply to Red Beard.
I thought it would be polite to give an update on how I'm doing.

I really appreciate all the suggestions you guys gave, but nothing seems to help for me (including the gluten-free diet). I'm losing hope/faith that this is something that can be done by anybody, or that the people who succeed in their meditation practice are just a bunch of lucky people with the right 'concentration-genetics'.

Is there anybody on this forum who used to have similar ADD-ish problems, and solved them using some technique or by going on a retreat or something, without using medication?

I used to meditate for about an hour every day, but because I see no improvement whatsoever, I've gone back to only 5 minutes a day. That won't help either, of course, but I can't motivate myself to do more than that at this point. Right now meditation seems like forcing my mind to do something it can't, which only creates more suffering.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/18/14 12:25 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
i didn't succeeded either.
All my states are accidents. I don't know how to reproduce anything either. It occured to me that i am doing something different and more better(in my opinion better).

Don't worry.
Mind overlaps everything, but some people when they start meditate they automatically enter into a (no-mind) reality, there is no overlapping, thats why you can't achieve concentration states.

i think i have ADD or what it is too, i am very impatient and meditation makes it better, i am now even more impatient haha. Im so impatient that i won't risk anymore, i take only sure things what works. (i take that claim back, i googled ADD and didn't understand anything whats there written..)

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/18/14 12:21 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Hi Red Beard:

Straining to reach something in meditation tends to push whatever it is we're looking for further away, and for certain sensitive individuals trying to place the attention on one object heightens frustration and can feel very constraining and increases agitation. I do not have ADD (that I'm aware of), but it may be useful to shift the focus of your practice. Perhaps somatic mindfulness may be useful, or, if you are looking to build concentration, which I would advise against it as it doesn't seem to be yielding productive results, you could use metta which builds concentration but in a gentler way.

Bill

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/20/14 6:18 AM as a reply to Red Beard.
:-) Hi Red Beard!

I am sorry that you have been having such a struggle despite your endeavours.

The chapter in which Daniel referred to “access concentration” relates not to Mahasi Sayadaw's noting-style meditation but to samatha (calm abiding) practice, though both may be approached via anapanasati. I am not sure if you understand this, or perhaps I have misunderstood when you explained…
The meditation style I do is the Mahasi Sayadaw noting-style meditation.

Here's the problem: I haven't even reached Access Concentration yet.

One could practice both types in a day but not simultaneously.

If you want to practice samatha-style meditation (which you can do with eyes closed), here are some guidelines for getting started…you will note that in “Stage Two” one has dropped the naming/labelling. If you have 55 minutes to spare, here is Ajahn Brahm giving a talk on how to approach anapanasati samatha-wise, not to be confused with Mahasi Sayadaw's noting-style meditation.

I cannot offer a suggestion on improving mind-fog, other than that I hope you are keeping yourself healthily-nourished and well-hydrated. Tight schedules, commuting and working in noisy hectic environments, and hours of intense cogitation as part of ones working day, may set ones mind “under starter’s orders” upon waking and leave it like a “madding crowd” long after heading home…and next day one wakes up for the same thing!... On the bright side, this is a lesson in the skandhas not being 100% under ones control (and therefore not-self), but unfortunately pleasure at this discovery is likely to be short-lived:-)

Working with what you have, here is an extract from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta that may give you some morale support for your mindfulness practice (for “monk”, read “person”), if none for getting your law-degree…

And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind [i.e others’ minds, recognising similar states] in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.

Wishing you success in finding a way forward with kindness to yourself (-:

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/20/14 11:03 AM as a reply to Anne Cripps.
Dear Red Beard and others

emoticon Many thanks to the Ajhan Brahm video link. I just sat with him for an hour and found it delightful.

He talks about how important kindness is. Loving acceptance of our present state, present self and loving the meditation is a prime indicator of how it is going.

I've been very pleased with the response you have received. I read them a few days ago and started to add to the conversation but time and login necessity slowed me down. So I went away thinking about you and your post. There are several topics to cover from my perspective.
ADD and ADHD are often over used. As a school psychologist and school counselor for 20 years I can attest that they are real. There are a variety of ways to treat it. I like Daniel Amen's www.amenclinic.com approach where he looks at diet, exercise, vitamins, neurofeedback, and medications. He also shows pictures of blood flow in the brain with SPECT scans.

Heartmath has a few varieties of devices that measure the variation in beat to beat of your heart. Using one of them you will know as soon as you start to drift away and can make corrections. There is also a device through MyBrainSolutions that does a similar monitoring. These allow you to be meditating all the time you are sitting.

Every time you return to the object of meditation you have strengthened the cortical region of the brain governing attention. Just like every time you do a physical exercise it makes a difference with the muscles concerned. So be happy if you have noticed drifting because you are meditating by returning and have increased your capacity to do so, despite present circumstances.

There are many beneficial reasons to meditate. Whenever we do so we accrue the dividends. If you want a deep experience or taste of 'enlightenment' and do not have extended time available, I suggest you participate in an 'Enlightenment Intensive.' They use a technique of koans while sitting across from another person. With another person watching we spend a lot more time on task than sitting anonymously in a group or alone. Typically about a third to a half of participants have very deep experiences in a three day event.

When your not sitting, but moving about you might try the 'Just say gone' game. It is a noting technique where you note when you notice something leaving your awareness. There are three or four areas to pick from, visual, auditory, kinetic, and emotional. I lump the last two together and use three words: see, feel, hear. These all come from Shinzen Young. If you get competitive with this noting you have to be very present tense, with no other thinking. Daniel suggested the higher limits on these might be 50 or more notes per second. LOL I have no idea how to measure that, but I do know the more notes I make the more present I am, and the more relaxed and peaceful I become. So you can pay attention to music noting with wild abandon every sound drifting out of consciousness. That could include each base beat, drum beat, each time there is a lapse of notes from an instrument, etc. Similarly from breathing to walking you can note each major change but also every minor muscle movement as it fades into history. Visually if you are walking there are so many objects drifting away peripherally. Even sitting if your thinking in pictures there are changes to be noted as you follow a thread of thought.

Ahh, so many things to enjoy. But also include noticing all the alarms, and complaints that come up during the day. Accepting and enjoying these compete life in other ways....

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/20/14 1:40 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Red Beard:
nothing seems to help for me
I'm losing hope/faith that this is something that can be done by anybody
the people who succeed in their meditation practice are just a bunch of lucky people with the right 'concentration-genetics'.

I used to meditate for about an hour every day, but because I see no improvement whatsoever, I've gone back to only 5 minutes a day.
I can't motivate myself to do more than that at this point.
Right now meditation seems like forcing my mind to do something it can't, which only creates more suffering.

Lets get back to basics.
1) Daily practice
2) Interaction with a teacher experienced in the area of your goals
3) Retreats

You say you do mahasi noting but we don't even know that. That's the problem with a forum interaction at times...too many assumptions. It really sounds like you're self sabotaging. Stop listening to yourself and get an experienced teacher who can guide you thru this. Your definitions may be wrong/misunderstood/self-sabotaging; get some good one on one guidance.
Go on a retreat.

What are you getting out of your daily practice? Why are you doing it? What motivated you the first 1,5 years / 239 days such that you are still doing this?
I don't mean to be harsh on you but sometimes we gotta face the fact that we can be our own worst enemies.
Good luck
~D

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/20/14 2:44 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
imho ADD is disorder in which person is wasting too much brain power for whatever things they are doing and then using unskillful ways to conserve power which is this zoning out. This crap is doing very bad job at conserving power so should be stopped and used only when there is power and not then it is lacking. It is so bad that it is biggest power hog, except maybe 'self' and some not necessarily necessary processes regarding feeling sick (there are things that trigger that even when definitely one is not sick and those can be stopped too)

much better is just to disable whatever process that is not very necessary and seem to take a lot of resources. There are a lot of those both unpleasant and pleasant. I try to shut down different things and see what happens and sometimes one momentary action that is taken on right process can mean difference between feeling crappy or great for like the rest of the day! And when there is nothing overloading your brain anymore and it have free resources to spare life become pure joy.

you do not need to name such things or see those crappy sensations 40 times per second. What you need is firepower and proper concentration gives it to you. Without simple concentration abilities no amount of insight is going to help you because you won't be able to use it!

So sit on the cushion, close your eyes and concentrate on breath. Do not try to see yourself concentrating on breath but become breath to the point of there being only breath that you cannot identify with because there is no concept of identifying or even being anything and such. When you will be able to do that for like ten seconds you will be able to do nice things. And when you will be only able to see yourself being with breath for an hour you won't be able to do squat except maybe being more suited to do really simple and boring jobs ; )

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
1/20/14 4:13 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Have you tried noting vanishings instead of arisings of phenomena? That puts the mind on the restful side of the street. The easiest practice is to hear cars go by (provided your street is not very busy nor very silent). I'm posting my experience with it in my practice log, see 12/8/13 and 12/20/13 posts. Also, please check Shinzen Young's "The Power of Gone" and pages 36 and 95-99 of SY's "Five Ways to Know Yourself".

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
2/6/14 9:47 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Red Beard:


Is there anybody on this forum who used to have similar ADD-ish problems, and solved them using some technique or by going on a retreat or something, without using medication?




Hi Redbeard. I have diagnosed ADHD, and have gotten to access concentration despite it. The technique I use when concentration is weak is simple: talk to yourself.

Use your inner voice and give yourself instructions, ask yourself questions. "How am I feeling? Can I feel my arm? Can I feel the hairs on it? What about my foot? Can I feel.all the unpleasant feelings in my body? Okay, let's try focusing on the breath for a second. Can you feel it?" Etc.

I often speak to myself in third person when doing this. I find that the attention responds to my inner voice, even if it doesn't respond to my simple intention. For now, I'd recommend just trying to build the strength of your inner voice, make it loud, strong, and under your control. Then, once it is doing your bidding, telling the attention to stay on the body/breath/whatever, you'll calm down a bit and maybe won't need the voice as much. For me, starting with the voice first, then letting that drop.only once the mind has some constancy of focus, works.

Also, I'm going to try doing doing 50 squats right before I.sit, as I think that might help too, would be curious to see if it helped you.

RE: frustration / access concentration
Answer
3/2/14 8:37 PM as a reply to Red Beard.
Thanks for all your replies.

I have gotten diagnosed with ADD a week ago. I don't know if I will use medication yet: it might help me but I don't really like the idea of a 'magic pill'.

I have lately dedicated my practice to metta meditation. I don't think it improves my concentration, but that's not my goal anymore. I feel it really improves the way I behave towards myself and others, so that by itself is already worth the effort. I think it has helped me speak less negatively to myself and be more open, loving and kind in my communication with others.