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Dharma Diagnostic Clinic, aka "What was that?"

New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?

Hello all,
I am new here, so hi.. emoticon I am not sure where to post this, so mods please move if necessary.

About a couple months ago I took my first Goenka retreat... had to leave half way through because of anxiety. The next month I took another retreat determined to complete it and I did.

But the retreat felt incomplete. While I had ups and downs during the retreat, by the 10th day I didn't feel good like you're supposed to feel.

Coming out of the retreat for about two weeks I was practicing the technique an hour or two every day. I practiced after the first unfinished retreat as well.

During both stretches of practice (after the first retreat and the second one), when off the cushion during real life, I would be triggered easily. I would over react to people or situations and a lot of frustration, anger or anxiety would surface. I realize this is all my stuff I've repressed. I've had similar upheavals in the past when I would do other 'cleansing' work whether mental or physical.

But my question is why isn't this stuff coming up during the meditation but during daily life? Am I doing the meditation wrong?

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/22/13 5:49 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Hi Ashwin,

I'm fairly new here too. I have been reading for several years now and decided it was time to start posting emoticon.

I have done a handful of Goenka retreats myself and can relate to your experience of being easily triggered when returning to normal life. I suspect it is not anything you are doing wrong with the technique but perhaps, rather, an adjustment period returning to the normal (householder) life after being immersed in the monastic structure for 10 days, intensively meditating. They do have you begin talking on the 10th day to help with this transition, to a certain extent, but each time I go on retreat, returning to my normal life has challenges.

I find that I am more sensitive when I leave retreats which can have benefits and drawbacks. For example, when driving a car away from a retreat, I experience a heightened sensate experience, tuned into sensations that I am normally habituated to and don't notice, which can be both exhilarating and frightening at times. It does bring clarity to the dangers of driving that I find that I can be ignorant of. This is an example that may be somewhat similar to the reactivity that you are experiencing. You are likely noticing many things that you may have been ignorant of if you had not gone on retreat.

Congratulations on completing the retreat! emoticon

Also, you mentioned that you didn't experience "feeling good like you're supposed to feel." Maybe considering this assumption would be helpful? Is insight practice supposed to feel good? Is your goal to feel good? What are your goals when going on retreat and/or for meditation?

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/22/13 8:52 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
I don't think you're seeing enough in these emotions. Emotions have beliefs/scenarios/predictions and other perceptions behind them. The purpose of cognitive therapy is to destroy ridiculous beliefs and their emotional offshoots and then replace them with healthy ones. With meditation you can do the same thing but you are also developing equanimity towards them (not clinging to narratives and stories that cause stress) and then letting those mental habits weaken with non-use.

If you just do a concentration practice you can block this stuff out and get tranquil but as soon as you're out of these nice mindstates those habitual thoughts come back and wreak havoc on those pleasant mindstates.

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/23/13 7:18 PM as a reply to Drew Miller.
Hi Drew,
Thanks for replying Drew. It's possible that these feelings coming up were because of the retreat itself. I am already sensitive as it is. But my sense is that this is happening because of the meditation.

During my daily sitting at home, which I discontinued for now, I don't feel as many gross/painful sensations as in the retreat. It is mostly subtle/pleasant sensations. This is because I've been told that sitting still without moving for an hour isn't necessary at home so I don't have as much pain in my legs.

So I was just wondering if I was somehow triggering them in daily life instead.

Congratulations on completing the retreat! emoticon

thanks!

Also, you mentioned that you didn't experience "feeling good like you're supposed to feel." Maybe considering this assumption would be helpful? Is insight practice supposed to feel good? Is your goal to feel good? What are your goals when going on retreat and/or for meditation?

My goal wasn't to feel good in the retreat... it's just that you hear accounts of people feeling blissed out by the end of the retreat that when it didn't happen to me and it also felt like I was continuing to process as if it was the 6th or 7th day... I was just wondering.

I might have some expectation for meditation during daily life. I probably do it for peace of mind that I hope will spill over into daily life. Although I realize I am really sitting because I have a lot of "stuff" that I am carrying that needs to be released and healed. But that takes time.

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/23/13 7:16 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
With meditation you can do the same thing but you are also developing equanimity towards them (not clinging to narratives and stories that cause stress) and then letting those mental habits weaken with non-use.

Thanks Richard. Awareness is key in those situations. I was only aware after the fact. But even if I would have been conscious of what was happening, I doubt I would have had the equanimity to be with those powerful emotions.

I'll begin practicing daily again. Let's see what happens.

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/26/13 4:13 AM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Hi Ashwen,

I have a tendency towards anxiety myself, and when I was younger I collected my fair share of "stuff". I have been practicing for 5 or 6 years, on and off, and I have experienced a whole spectrum of wonderfulness and horribleness. I find I am either going through a process of healing or the opposite. I find that during the process of healing it is not me consciously doing the healing, I just try to work on my concentration and see the reality of what I do and why, the three characteristics, the fact that I couldn't even predict the next sensation that is about to arise let alone anything more significant in my life. Often I relapse as all the arising "stuff" and the out pouring of emotions, as well as the uncomfortableness of reality from the perspective of my anxious hermit self haha, it all starts to feel too much. It is only after the relapse that I recognize that that was a time of healing. I find that every moment spent in mindfulness, yet alone ever meditation session, is all a little chip away at the illusions that construct my "stuff", or more accurately I suppose the illusion which creates that which has the "stuff". I have seen enough to make the comfort of my anxious, retreated, shy self feel distinctly uncomfortable.

I think trust in the process, whatever emotion arises is the right emotion for the moment, and however you feel is the right feeling for this stage of the process. There is a lot to be said for determination too, which it sounds like you have plenty of by going back to complete your retreat! emoticon

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/26/13 8:23 AM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Ashwin R:
Richard Zen:
With meditation you can do the same thing but you are also developing equanimity towards them (not clinging to narratives and stories that cause stress) and then letting those mental habits weaken with non-use.

Thanks Richard. Awareness is key in those situations. I was only aware after the fact. But even if I would have been conscious of what was happening, I doubt I would have had the equanimity to be with those powerful emotions.

I'll begin practicing daily again. Let's see what happens.


That's not going to be good enough. You need to be noting all day so when things are starting to get slightly irritating you are already on top of it. If you note lots (not rapid fire noting but slow consistent noting) you can see the mental traps and neurological water-slides that send you down the same paths over and over again.

It isn't easy at first (because of aversion) but you need to use the noting to find out what causes the strong emotions in the first place. I guarantee you there will be some repetitiveness and dry dead old mental habits that are as familiar as your childhood home. Make a list. Then use mindfulness to recognize when items on the list are about to be triggered. Then interrupt the story with noting and continue on in the present moment getting on with your day, because we all have tasks more important than constant mental narratives. You are trying to see what is taking real-estate in your mind and prevent it from taking over. Noting is to prevent stories from continuing on and on and on and to notice the relief when you aren't caught up in emotional narratives.

Cutting new paths in the mind

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/26/13 12:48 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Welcome Ashwin.

The next month I took another retreat determined to complete it and I did.


I'm glad to know that.

But the retreat felt incomplete. While I had ups and downs during the retreat, by the 10th day I didn't feel good like you're supposed to feel.


Your assumption is untrue. Some people do feel great by the end of it. It varies a lot from person to person. I have done 3 retreats and each time I've found day 8 and 9 very demanding as I tend to get a little impatient. So chill out. It means that work is being done.

The emotions coming up in your daily life are your suppressed mental impressions which you've suddenly gain awareness of. As you keep practicing and maintain equanimity, these will not affect you nearly as much. As you eradicate layers after layers, delusion will slowly fade and you'll find simple everyday life more fulfilling.

This stuff also comes up in meditation but ultimately it's your life that you're trying to perceive, right ?
This technique of Vipassana is very powerful and subtle. Even though consciously you're not meditating, some work is ongoing in the deeper levels of the mind.

Everyone else has also given very good answers. You're doing it right.

Being a student of the same tradition, I would like to make one thing clear to you : Cutting edge Sila is extremely important for progress. Without good Sila, your concentration will be dull and you spend more time in frustration than you need to.

For more doubts and queries : http://www.vridhamma.org/Question-and-Answers

Metta,

SN

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/26/13 2:29 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Ashwin R:
Hello all,

But the retreat felt incomplete. While I had ups and downs during the retreat, by the 10th day I didn't feel good like you're supposed to feel.


I think this has already been remarked upon, but there is certainly no "supposed to" about how you feel on a retreat. It's certainly nice when we get cathartic breakthroughs and equanimical integrations toward the end of a retreat, but it is by no means guaranteed.

Have you read Daniel Ingram's work on the dark night stages? It sounds like you may be encountering some of that stuff.


Ashwin R:

During both stretches of practice (after the first retreat and the second one), when off the cushion during real life, I would be triggered easily. I would over react to people or situations and a lot of frustration, anger or anxiety would surface. I realize this is all my stuff I've repressed. I've had similar upheavals in the past when I would do other 'cleansing' work whether mental or physical.

But my question is why isn't this stuff coming up during the meditation but during daily life? Am I doing the meditation wrong?


When emotional stuff starts coming up, it doesn't stop just because we decide to get up from the cushion. When perceptual barriers are dissolved in vipassana practice they don't snap back in place instantly.

I've found that it's helpful to think of every meditation technique being incomplete on it's own. To develop in a balanced way and deal with all the stuff that comes up, you need to practice a variety of techniques at different levels of awareness and be able to move between them skillfully.

For example, if you're being triggered easily in daily life, it could be because emotions are surfacing that need to be dealt with on the level of emotional content. That means that you stop trying to dissolve them (which may only lead to more emotions pouring out). Instead, you take them up as emotions and work with them. If anger and frustration are coming out, ask yourself where the anger is coming from, go for a walk in the woods and scream out your frustration to a tree, journal about it, pray from support and understanding to God or the Buddha or whatever higher power resonates with you. All of these can be valuable ways of moving beyond the trap of trying to meditate your feelings away. If you do want to use meditation to help, I would recommend light loving-kindness and compassion meditation directed toward yourself. You might also want to seek additional support from friends, a therapist, meditation teacher, or community. Once the emotions are tended to, you can resume your insight practices, and you'll likely move through the insight stages more easily without as much emotional resistance.

I am a non-denominational spiritual director with a lot of experience in my own practice in dealing with dark night experiences, and in helping others move through these stages. If you are looking for further support around this, I'd be happy to do a free 30 minute consultation with you by phone or Skype.

Sincerely,
Avi Craimer
Spiritual Direction

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
11/27/13 9:45 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
Hi there,

'Focusing', by Gendlin

What Richard Zen is talking about here is a kind of noting that is very simple and present with what is. The 'focusing' techniques is proof of the effectiveness of noting. By allowing and accepting what is, with mindfulness, the thing that is causing discomfort dislike or irritation will shift/change, even if it is only our 'mental resistance' to a current injury and pain.

Vipassana builds up acceptance, tolerance or teaches us to let go. Letting go can help us get to a point where we feel good, too, but its not the cultivation of good feelings, parse. Thought if they come along, it's good to be with them until they pass.

So Vipassana can sensitise you! So its important to let go, or keep noting, or sharpen the insight by keeping it around the breath. When scanning the body or investigating the body part by part and piece by piece, you can over sensitising the body. This is the advantage of bringing it to the rising and falling of the abdomen, you get better concentration while still developing the insight, because the object is moving and changing, 'khanika samadhi'!

You can still do Goenkha's technique, just not all day during daily activities, and sometimes even while sitting you may be better off not doing it too. Because you may begin to recognise a subtle aversion to all sensations 'Vedana', at this point it is good to strengthen the concentration, which will calm the mind. When the mind is calm, you have the basis for developing some equanimity. (note this equanimity I'm talking about is not high equanimity-but the jhanic factor, which is one of the seven factors of enlightenment-mindfulness, concentration, joy, equanimity, investigation, calm & effort-so it is still good. These seven factors can sometimes be simplified into the five faculties - mindfulness, confidence/faith-from experience, wisdom/investigation & effort.)

"Five Faculties (indriya) and Five Strengths or Powers
Faith & Wisdom balance each other, as do Energy & Concentration.
The Five Faculties are ‘controlling’ faculties because they control or master their opposites.
The faculties and powers are two aspects of the same thing.

Faith (saddha) – controls doubt
Energy/Effort/Persistence (viriya) – controls laziness
Mindfulness (sati); – controls heedlessness
Concentration (samadhi) – controls distraction
Wisdom (panna)/Discernment – controls ignorance" added that in from some buddhist page, this stuff is not made up its basic buddhist understanding, Goenkha, has his own style and doesn't cover everything in those first ten days!

Any way Good luck

RE: New here. Powerful emotions surfacing in between practice?
Answer
12/15/13 6:03 PM as a reply to Ashwin R.
I didn't realize I got more replies, thanks for your replies everyone. It has added to my perspective.

I haven't started meditating again. I haven't experienced any over reactive emotional outbursts since. Although I am contemplating starting the practice again.