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Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
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Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/9/10 7:57 AM
Hey, everyone at the DhO!
I stumbled upon this video, and must confess that I do not understand if fully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0WUgmTndc

I personally don't think there is any truth to the statement that the dura mater should contract where there is craving, but I am not an MD, of course.

Anyways, I posted it if anyone is interested, and if there is any discussion, maybe I'll learn something from it!

Baby steps emoticon

Regards,
Mike
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/9/10 10:30 AM as a reply to Mike Gee.
Hi Mike,
I met this guy a few years ago and it really changed how I practice. The tension he speaks of is quite real - and noticeable with practice. Whenever I am caught up in thoughts, if I turn my attention toward the sense of tension in the forehead (also face and back of head in my experience), there is tension there. After relaxing this tension (takes practice), there is a sense of release. Following it up with a light smile kind of energizes the release in a nice way.

The tension is habitual and directly related to a sense of stress, striving, etc. At first I was only able to release it partially for a brief period of time and then it crept back in. You have to keep repeating the process -but eventually it leads to releasing tension much deeper in the body - sort of a chain reaction.

I think you can verify it for yourself pretty easily within a few days.
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/9/10 5:38 PM as a reply to Mike Gee.
Mike Gee:

I personally don't think there is any truth to the statement that the dura mater should contract where there is craving, but I am not an MD, of course.


i don't know about the dura mater specifically either, but i appreciate bhante vimalaramsi because i appreciate anyone who says 'there must be more' (and is able to substantiate it with a first-hand account of accomplishment).

also, i can report that there is something to the point about head tension. a tension inside my head 'popped' when i got stream-entry (which i did by practising the very same mahasi method vimalaramsi criticises by the way), then later, funny sensations (approximating a pleasant tension) at the crown of my head showed up and stayed for quite a while, and other unusual sensations played on the back of my head for a long time (which had the effect of making my sense of perspective seem wide and expansive).

like chuck wrote, you may be able to verify the coincidence in which certain tension felt in the head occur along with stress rather quickly. whether these tensions have anything to do with contractions of the dura mater is perhaps another matter.

tarin
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/13/10 3:56 AM as a reply to Mike Gee.
Some psychology to it... and my experience.

A.H. Almaas talks a lot in his book ´The Void´ about the 'genital hole' (related to the freudian castration complex), that we all experience in our body-image (that is a part of the self-image), which - according to him - is just the presence of space. He says that we normally react to this space or hole by contracting the pelvic area and the forehead (especially near the ocular area). I don't know if this is true, but it relates to my experience in a interesting way.

I begun to feel a strong tension in my forehead for the first time in january - while I still was at the 3 characteristic stage. When I completed the cycle (early march) it got really intense, and was present almost all my waking hours. Recently completed a new insight cycle (my second), where I begun to feel the hole that he describes during the dark night - which brought a lot of stuff, as one can imagine - and later in equanimity, after feeling the energy channels in my forehead and eyes burning like hell, a really 'complex' tension pattern relaxed: it begun in the forehead, went down thought my neck to the spine to the heart region, and to the lower back. My shoulders droped immedeately and I never felt so relaxed in my life... Later, the lower back released a little and some time latter pelvic tensions showed up for the first time. This was the first time I managed to relax the dura matter; and now if I pay attention to it, I manage to keep it relaxed, but whenever I begin to think too much it contracts. Also when I strain or try to focus too hard, I feel it contrating and it makes my whole body tense.

Thanks for the video by the way. This was the sort of thing I've been looking for. After this last cycle I've been feeling a need to find a more relaxed and less intense approach to meditation.

Regards,
Bernardo
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/14/10 2:58 AM as a reply to Bernardo Vasconcelos.
Thanks for this info. I had never heard of of this guy. I appreciate his message though. Its easy in the Hardcore Dharma tradition to get caught up in craving. Yesterday I listened to a talk on his site, very good. I think a blend of relaxing the tension and then moving to noting practice will be what I am going to try out for a few days. Went well this morning. He is a suttra thumper which generally turns me off, but I dunno I think he has got something to say... So Chuck do you do noting practice as well or just the practice he lays out?
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/24/10 11:52 AM as a reply to Clayton James Lightfoot.
Along these lines, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, also a sutta guy, did a great guided meditation in his recent talks at IMC in which he systematically went through different chakras with a view toward relaxing tension at each. He started at the naval and gradually moved up the body to the center of the head and then down the back to the base of the spine. This was all "tetrad" stuff from the satipatthana sutta. The instruction was to "breathe" at each center.
The talks are available at the link below. I think the particular guided meditation I'm referring to might have been the fourth talk.

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-cur.html

Overall, I'm pretty darn sure I could use a lot more "receptive effort" in my practice--the non-effort that involves softening, relaxing, easing up, doing metta practice. Alan Wallace gives a good instruction that has to do with perking up or paying attention on the in-breath, but really relaxing and kind of "going out" on the out breath.

I actually think Vimalaramsi might be quite correct that for a lot of people metta is actually the key to jhana. Even Pa Auk asks a lot of people to start with metta, I believe...
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
5/26/10 6:26 PM as a reply to Clayton James Lightfoot.
Clayton James Lightfoot:
So Chuck do you do noting practice as well or just the practice he lays out?

Hi Clayton,
Now days I use a sort of hybrid method that combines the Breath Energy practices that Thanissaro Bhikkhu teaches (lots of talks here) with the more explicit relaxing/smiling technique that Vimalaramsi teaches. I start off with long breathing while maintaining awareness of the whole body which includes inclining the body/mind towards calming during the in and out breath- then if I drift off, employ Vimalaramsi 6R's method. The object is the breath energy throughout the body.

The other practice I use quite often is a lying down chi-gong method of sweeping energy through the body - starting with the feet.

Started with internal chi-gong for a few years, then I did what was called 'dry vipassana' (kind of like what Daniel teaches but not such intense noting) for about 6 years. Then came upon Than. Bhikkhu and started with his practices which I found very compatible with my earlier Chi Gong training. Then sort of folded in Vimalaramsi's stuff.

-Chuck
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
6/7/10 10:26 PM as a reply to tarin greco.
Dhamma Greetings Tarin.
My name is Rev. Sister Khema. i have been studying with Venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi for 10 years now and am a nun in the new Buddhist Order called American Forest Tradition.

It isn't the "dura matter" that Bhante refers to tensing up. It is the surrounding sack called the Meninges membrane that behaves like a muscle when tension arises. This is documented pretty easily by using an EEG.

As the meditator becomes very still and progresses with the practice, they will learn how to identify this sensation and learn how to RELEASE mind's attention from any arising phenomena and RELAX any left over tension and tightness in mind or in body.
Then they RE-SMILE to lighten up mind and sharpen awareness. YOu can see this part on the EEG also when it occurs. Then they return mind's attention to the object of meditation and continue on repeating this process whenever they recognize mind's attention shifting away from the obj of meditation.

The practice does not work fully unless the student understands that these steps are actually the buddha's process called Right Mindfulness as described in MN 77.
The 4 steps of Right mindfulness are
1. RECOGNIZE any unwholesome arising in mind ( during meditation, this means any arising phenomena which turns out to be a hindrance to continued meditation practice)

2. RELEASE the unwholesome;

3. BRING UP A WHOLESOME ( and your practice of meditation is the MOST wholesome you can do in life.)

4. KEEP the wholesome going.

The 6 steps that Bhante gives us to do, actually are simply fulfilling the practice of RIGHT EFFORT.

RECOGNISE = our RECOGNISE step when we first notice mind's attention moving away from the object ( sending the loving kindness out to the spiritual friend..)

RELEASE/ RELAX = the RELEASING of the unwholesome hindrance that arose and then adding the step of Relaxing any leftover tension after that release. ( There are two steps here and for most of modern times this second step has been left out. IT makes a real difference if you do the second relax step and then bring back less tension to the object each time you continue. If you practice this way, you are systematically reducing the tension and you will find that you can fall into deeper states naturally.

BRING UP A WHOLESOME = the RESMILE/ RETURN steps . As i said above, the smile lightens up mind and sharpens awarenss more. the next time you will notice the arising tension sooner because there will be less in your mind!

KEEP THE WHOLESOME GOING = This equals the REPEAT the process as needed when we are practicing.

by following the Buddha's guidance literally concerning Right Effort you will find a deeper experience is possible ...

At the same time if you have a guide who fully understands this stuff, they can help you to see which parts of Dependent Origination you can actually observe during this entire experience. As you begin to understand this very impersonal process you will begin to see clearly what Atta and Anatta actually are as the Buddha taught them. This is rather an extraordinary experience and it comes out very clear.


Hope this helps you to see better what Bhante Vimalaramsi is passing along to us. When he teaches he is teaching right out of the texts and his understanding is truly exceptional. He finds not reason to change around how the buddha was teaching. So we learn to practice using the same drills and exercises the monks did. Experimenting with this, one sees more deeply faster and clearer than expected. Slowly the movie of life is revealed to us as Frames of a film and we begin to udnerstand how everything is really working. it's just great.

Metta and smiles.
Rev. Sister Khema
RE: Vimalaramsi vs Sayadaw teachings?
8/27/10 4:18 AM as a reply to Sister Khema.
That's right Sister, the instruction is right there for all to read and learn in MN118 Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing,

You say "There are two steps here and for most of modern times this second step has been left out. IT makes a real difference if you do the second relax step and then bring back less tension to the object each time you continue."

You bet and here it is:

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, ... 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, ... 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.

Now there is no confusion "calming bodily fabrication" means relaxing. "releasing the mind" means exactly what you describe in your explanation.

You go on to say: " If you practice this way, you are systematically reducing the tension and you will find that you can fall into deeper states naturally."

This is exactly my experience when I added these steps. Adding the release and relax steps result in a feeling or sense of relief. Lightness. The mind/body immediately brightens and energizes. I bring this relief back to my object of meditation. That's what I call a wholesome state. It was a little clunky to lean at first but quickly became fluid and natural, even in every day life.

Releasing and relaxing quickly softens and eases the mind. It become quieter and quieter, and quieter. This quality of tranquility and peace is not gained though forcing Samadi but by releasing distractions and relaxing. This stillness is what you describe as the deeper natural states and wow what that's about is another story.