Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Practice Logs

cittanupassana (practice log)

cittanupassana (practice log)
Answer
2/5/14 2:43 PM
Hey DhOers,

Yesterday morning I had a meditation experience which has altered my practice direction (a bit). Nothing too drastic, really just a different focus for mindfulness. Apparently drastic enough for me to decide to start a new practice log, but I think that such a log will be useful as I have definitely seen others report similar practices so they could probably help me with this one.

Anyway, the experience I had was one of "cittanupassana" or "contemplation of the mind." i.e. observing the one's mental state like so:

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.


satipatthana sutta

I was experiencing some practice doubt, i.e. thinking about how to practice, what constitutes "liberation" etc... Many times I have simply gone on and on, acting out the doubt in thought word and deed, spinning the topics around in my head and reading books and webpages in a never-ending cycle. Many other times I have attempted to suppress the doubt via focusing away from it or yelling at myself or whatever. Rarely do I take the standard mindfulness advice of just observing it without judgment, but also without "indulging" in it. That is what I did, and the doubt totally dissolved in seconds. I just felt all of the emotional sensations, noticed all the thoughts, considered how often I had gone down the doubt-road before and the effect it had on me and others. Rather than it feeling "disgusting" as it usually does when I realize I had fallen for the doubt again, this time it just felt empty, like a bad joke[1]. Like "ok man, we can just stop already."

Anyways, the doubt dissolved and I enjoyed the rest of the day in, I felt very well, very peaceful, friendly etc. I noticed that those around me were uplifted and there was an absence of the typical power struggles I normally feel with others, as well as an absence of discontent in general. What was really striking to me, more so than all the other stuff I just mentioned, was the sheer effortlessness of it. Once the anxiousness and doubt were wholeheartedly let go of, the good mood was just what naturally was reverted to, no intention to sustain it or keep attention firm or anything was necessary.

Anyway since that happened I have shifted my practice to simply keeping track of all the subtle mood shifts, catching them, and then... well that's it really, just letting them be there and standing next to them. It occurred to me with that big ceasing of doubt that left such an impression that the difference between this practice and others which have also aimed at eliminating unfortunate mind-states is that this one didn't try to rush the deal. It didn't try to speed the process up or get rid of the discomfort as fast as possible. It was a genuine listening, a receptive observation. A genuine "what is this? why is it here?". It wanted to understand the suffering rather than just kill it as fast as possible. It was a much more friendly approach to the emotion, and it led to that empty feeling of "wow, i genuinely don't need this any more, no part of me wants this to continue."

Normally one part really wants the emotion and I "split" myself by creating an ideal that says "that emotion shouldn't be there" and then try to use the ideal to crush the other part of me that wants the emotion to stay. I think maybe I had to do that 100,000 times before realizing how misguided and disingenuous it was. I am going to work on just going no farther than keeping track of my mind-state and being with it. My goal is to always consciously know what mood I am in, i.e. to practice cittanupassana, and then to be with the emotion and listen to it's story. I'll report on what happens.

-Adam

[1] you know how sometimes someone tells a joke in poor taste, trying to hard to be funny, and it is just so universally obvious to everyone that he or she just "fucked up"... it's so obvious that it was a bad joke that no one really has to say anything and it just feels awkward, and you kind of feel sorry for the poor guy because he is not gonna say anything else for the next hour... that's what this wholehearted disinterest in the doubt was like.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
12/17/13 7:49 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Thank you.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
12/19/13 8:37 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
This is where my practice has been going lately, after probably a year where I may inadvertently have been trying to suppress incessant thoughts and moods by drowning them out with sensory clarity. (It never works, does it??)

Your description was spot-on!

I will say that it seems like this is what the Trungpa types are talking about when they have people do Six Realms practices (right now you're in hell fighting things, then you're mindlessly shoveling in food like an animal, then for three seconds life goes absolutely right and you're a god, then you're lonely because there's nobody to share it with and nothing will ever fill the hole--hungry ghost,and then you pull yourself together and set some goals and try to reach out to old friends far away--human,, but you envy others' success and you're suddenly one of the jealous gods obsessed with proving yourself.) But those seem clunky compared to the detail and flexibility of that section of the Satipatthana Sutta.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
12/19/13 9:57 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:

Normally one part really wants the emotion and I "split" myself by creating an ideal that says "that emotion shouldn't be there" and then try to use the ideal to crush the other part of me that wants the emotion to stay.


This kind of experience is all too familiar to me. There was a time a couple of years ago when I suffered tremendously from this kind of internal conflict, particularly from suppressing/crushing emotional experiences. It was highly disorienting, and made it difficult to work. What really helped was verbally noting thoughts/ideas and feelings/impulses/emotions as clearly, accurately and quickly as I could. The more clearly I was able to observe the interaction of thoughts & feelings, the more my mind let go of what was going on.

Thanks for the great reminder.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/21/14 2:35 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
thanks for the comments guys

here's a practice update:

I have been noticing how "tangled" these emotions/mindstates are. They build on themselves and become really complicated.

For an example I have observed in myself: I start out observing the thought "They are assholes." Referring to some people I felt like were unkind to me. I then trace that back to "people shouldn't judge me" it's only because I believe I shouldn't be judged by them that I separate myself from them, judge them, and dislike them. I then notice that it is only because I myself have the belief "I am weird and unlikable" that I am so sensitive to apparent judgment. So "they are assholes" is really just the fear "I am weird and unlikable" wearing a mask.

If I then just allow "I am weird and unlikable" I allow the mind to generate all the images that are "evidence" for this idea, it brings up memories of awkward encounters and times where I did unkind things, it's job is simply to provide evidence for its belief. I then look at these situations, and imagine what they would have been like if I were incapable of thinking the thought "I am weird."[1]

This experiment of looking at life without the "first generation thinking" allows me to realize that it was only my beliefs that opposed reality which caused any suffering. Those events which my mind brought up as evidence are nothing, or are indeed wondrous and enjoyable, without my emotional reactions to them. Just doing this experiment lets me separate reality and my mind state, which causes me to be less invested in the mindstate.

When this practice is followed through life opens up and I can see all the effects of that mindstate, like how it made me avoid talking to people and dislike them. Suddenly life seems filled with many more possibilities, it would be totally possible for me to approach some random person I didn't know, or be friendly with someone who apparently judged me. All this because I recognized that it wasn't these people who were scary, but my beliefs and reactions to them that were problematic. Reality is totally fine, even friendly and amazing, and this can become obvious by recognizing that "problems" only arise when I oppose the way it is.

[1] this is a byron katie practice (thework.com)

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/21/14 5:08 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Suddenly life seems filled with many more possibilities, it would be totally possible for me to approach some random person I didn't know, or be friendly with someone who apparently judged me. All this because I recognized that it wasn't these people who were scary, but my beliefs and reactions to them that were problematic.
: ) Thanks for sharing your practice, Adam.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/25/14 6:03 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Another brief update...


I realized that the person who I think I would be without the need for approval is someone I am really afraid of being. In my practice I often imagine who this person is and compare it to who I am with the need for approval and normally I just imagine the "spiritually correct" version of who I would be without that need. I imagine someone open, kind, friendly, relaxed, free etc. But when I let my inquiry be a bit more honest I realize that while I see someone with those attributes, I also see a "loser" a "fool" and someone "clueless" or "unaware." I see a carefree idiot oblivious to what is going on around me. Someone who is seen as harmless by others, but ultimately not part of the group.

Realizing this, I see that I have sustained a lie in my mind that I want to be free of the need for approval, when really the thought is terrifying to me and almost unimaginable. Yet, having admitted to myself that I am scared of losing this need for approval, I have felt some of it slip away a bit more easily. I have felt a subtle fear in my gut almost continuously for the last couple days after doing this more honest inquiry, as well as a reduced need for approval. I continue to look at who I am with the need for approval and who I am without the need for approval as honestly and specifically as I can, and it seems I continue to move effortlessly towards the latter as it "resonates" for me at a deeper level more clearly. What is key here is honesty it seems.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/25/14 7:43 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
I realized that the person who I think I would be without the need for approval is someone I am really afraid of being. (...) What is key here is honesty it seems.


Recollection might help too. Can you remember times when you felt no need for approval? What were you actually like?

A lot of people fear that unless they're sufficiently self-conscious and other-conscious, they'll seem either goofy and gauche, or weird and potentially dangerous. But given half a chance to feel lucid, non-threatened and non-threatening, they don't seem anything of the sort.

Edit: Another aspect of this -- different kind of turnaround, if you haven't tried it already -- what happens if you give up approving and disapproving of others in habitual ways? Does that affect your own sense of being dis/approved of?

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/26/14 1:11 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
Adam . .:
I realized that the person who I think I would be without the need for approval is someone I am really afraid of being. (...) What is key here is honesty it seems.


Recollection might help too. Can you remember times when you felt no need for approval? What were you actually like?

A lot of people fear that unless they're sufficiently self-conscious and other-conscious, they'll seem either goofy and gauche, or weird and potentially dangerous. But given half a chance to feel lucid, non-threatened and non-threatening, they don't seem anything of the sort.

Edit: Another aspect of this -- different kind of turnaround, if you haven't tried it already -- what happens if you give up approving and disapproving of others in habitual ways? Does that affect your own sense of being dis/approved of?


thanks for the questions and advice. Firstly, that "different kind of turnaround" has definitely been something I have used often and it is very good. When I am judging others and myself I feel judged always. It is a pretty ironclad thing. The way to use this I have found is by noticing that although my thoughts want others not to judge me, that would actually not really affect me, what would affect me is not judging myself and others.

As for recollection, I have tried to use that too. Kind of an Actualist approach to the "4th question" in BK's the work. As I said it can be unimaginable for me to think about what it would be like to not have a shred of "approval seeking" in a socially difficult situation, so I have resorted to recollecting times where I was "free" and imagining that state in the difficult situation.

The fact is, although seeking approval is pervasive and manifests as nearly-constant planning, facial expression holding, other-judging, false politeness, false confidence etc. There are even more times where I am not thinking about approval. In every moment that I am distracted by a thought about being hungry or whatever, or in moments where I am just happy and content, there is no approval seeking. It has been helpful to remember that as continuous and integral to life as approval-seeking seems, it is continually broken up by other thoughts and absences of thoughts.

Anyway the times where I had the least need for approval are probably some of the times in the past few days. Actually last night really stands out, I went to a club with my friends an hour away from our college and I said I would drive so I was sober the whole time which can make it difficult (for me) to not be self-conscious. I was surprised though at how open and natural I was. I found myself dancing freely and smiling at people, also I found my eyes flashing around to notice movement as it seems they naturally do when they aren't held in a position of "cool-boredom" or "cool-amusement" or something. It was as though a weight had been lifted off of me and my whole body could move naturally, compared to "normal" when it feels often as though I am paralyzed and every movement has to be made in spite of some fear.

I noticed myself being considerate, accepting, friendly, and happy. Though the moments in which this was noticed were actually moments in which these qualities decreased and self-consciousness, unkindness, heaviness, coldness, and fear increased. It seemed that the best moments were moments in which there was so little need for approval that it did not even occur to me to take an inventory of what I was like in that moment. Naturalness/openness can't be conscious I guess.

So yes, I agree with your observation about self-consciousness not having the vital importance we assume it does. At least, the part of me that wants to seem spiritual does ;). I have found however that when contemplating this fact, self-consciousness increases, what happens is that my mind picks up this idea about self-consciousness being a hindrance to being approved of, and then fakes confidence and freedom. My face changes, my posture relaxes, even my thoughts shape themselves into a "positive form." I feel excited, but it isn't freedom, and the feeling of excitement can easily become negative. It seems to me that freedom from the need for approval has to come through the happy-fool/open-child route rather than the happy, independent, relaxed, free, awesome guy route. As soon as I start reassuring myself that I will still be cool, or even cooler, without the need for approval, it all gets fake and the openness and wonder are as absent as if I was being transparently self-conscious.

Not that you were necessarily suggesting anything different, and I do think it is valuable to notice that our thoughts about how we need things don't help us much in getting them, but this is just reflection on a trap I have fallen into throughout my practice career.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/28/14 3:49 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:

(...) Naturalness/openness can't be conscious I guess.


I get what you mean by this, but I like to distinguish between self-awareness and self-consciousness. Self-awareness doesn't interfere with being natural and open, it's part of it. But there definitely is something that can add another layer to experience, and it's painful and crippling to varying degrees. Sometimes it's hard to separate the two, as if one necessarily entails the other, and this sometimes makes you think that the only relief lies in forgetfulness or distraction. (And then good luck chasing that, it's like trying to outrun your shadow). But it isn't true. I think even if relief isn't immediately at hand, it could still be useful to bear this in mind.

Perhaps one way to look at this: self-awareness is something that comes and goes, arises and subsides, and doesn't really mess with anything. It's a function. On the other hand, self-consciousness is a frame of mind that settles in and acts as a paradigm that you operate out of. And from within that paradigm you can't dislodge it; any attempt to do so is yet another expression of it.

Adam . .:

So yes, I agree with your observation about self-consciousness not having the vital importance we assume it does. At least, the part of me that wants to seem spiritual does ;). I have found however that when contemplating this fact, self-consciousness increases, what happens is that my mind picks up this idea about self-consciousness being a hindrance to being approved of, and then fakes confidence and freedom. My face changes, my posture relaxes, even my thoughts shape themselves into a "positive form." I feel excited, but it isn't freedom, and the feeling of excitement can easily become negative. It seems to me that freedom from the need for approval has to come through the happy-fool/open-child route rather than the happy, independent, relaxed, free, awesome guy route. As soon as I start reassuring myself that I will still be cool, or even cooler, without the need for approval, it all gets fake and the openness and wonder are as absent as if I was being transparently self-conscious.


Heh... I guess someone who's been there is allowed to laugh at this. (Not so much these days, but can remember what it's like well enough). The best I can suggest is the highlighted bit above.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/28/14 5:03 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
I am having trouble grasping the difference between self awareness and self consciousness. I can find freedom in the moments in which I am so absorbed into the moment that my actions are unquestioned and my situation un-critiqued. this seems like an absence of both.

I don't see this as distraction because it comes directly from not perceiving whatever is normally be worried about as not really a problem. distraction would be something similar but coming through shifting attention rather than letting attention be naturally focused after recognizing its object of concern was not really concerning. I am using "attention" in a more every day sense here.

would you characterize unquestioned action and uncritiqued world as an absence of self awareness?

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
1/28/14 5:41 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:
I am having trouble grasping the difference between self awareness and self consciousness.


Okay. See below.

Adam . .:

I can find freedom in the moments in which I am so absorbed into the moment that my actions are unquestioned and my situation un-critiqued. this seems like an absence of both.


Possibly, but not necessarily. It's certainly an absence of self-consciousness (as I mean it), but not necessarily an absence of self-awareness.

Adam . .:

I don't see this as distraction because it comes directly from not perceiving whatever is normally be worried about as not really a problem. distraction would be something similar but coming through shifting attention rather than letting attention be naturally focused after recognizing its object of concern was not really concerning.


Agreed.

Adam . .:

Would you characterize unquestioned action and uncritiqued world as an absence of self awareness?


Hard to say because being unquestioned / uncritiqued doesn't necessarily imply lack of self-awareness.

Let's say you're unreflectively immersed in something, then you become aware that it's happening. To me, there are two different flavours of this. The difference between self-awareness and self-consciousness is that self-consciousness has an extra layer, a feeling of slight embarrassment and awkwardness, a sense that you're trapped on the inside of something, and being looked at (even if only by some split-off notion of yourself).

That's not intrinsic to [what I mean by] self-awareness. Self-awareness is just knowing that this experience is happening as it's happening. Awareness of being aware, and awareness of doing. You know what's happening, you know your body and mind are potential objects-for-others, but you don't feel trapped on the 'inside' of that somehow. (That only comes from the extra layer that I'm calling self-consciousness).

I dunno if that makes any sense to you, but that's how I'd characterise the difference. (Could probably do better if I give it some more thought, but maybe that'll give an inkling of what I mean).

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/5/14 12:44 AM as a reply to John Wilde.
Let's say you're unreflectively immersed in something, then you become aware that it's happening. To me, there are two different flavours of this. The difference between self-awareness and self-consciousness is that self-consciousness has an extra layer, a feeling of slight embarrassment and awkwardness, a sense that you're trapped on the inside of something, and being looked at (even if only by some split-off notion of yourself).

That's not intrinsic to [what I mean by] self-awareness. Self-awareness is just knowing that this experience is happening as it's happening. Awareness of being aware, and awareness of doing. You know what's happening, you know your body and mind are potential objects-for-others, but you don't feel trapped on the 'inside' of that somehow. (That only comes from the extra layer that I'm calling self-consciousness).


I wonder if self awareness is not simply a subtler form of self-consciousness. For me even when what you call self-awareness arises, there is that sense of being "trapped" on the "inside" of that. When I make any comment on what my experience is, or what my actions are like, there is inevitably comparison and discontentment.

Here is a relatively non-self-conscious comment which I think would fit into what you call self-awareness which I made to myself today. I was sitting in my room and had the thought "I am feeling bored now." In the instant before that, I had been looking out the window, and there was not apparently any dissatisfaction present. When I had that thought, which was an apparent "awareness" suddenly a problem was introduced into my perceptual universe. Within that very thought "I am feeling bored now" there was the knowledge that I have accumulated that boredom is an inferior state, that it means I am not practicing well enough, that it means I should be doing more meaningful and socially acceptable things. Similarly when it occurs to me that "I am feeling happy now" a problem is introduced which is "well why am I happy now?" "Why wasn't I happy yesterday?" "what do I do about maintaining this?" "what do I do to create happiness always?".

As soon as I am "aware" of anything it seems that there's a recognition/naming, then inevitably a judgment/comparison, then inevitably discontentment.

The absence of self-awareness as such is way harder to point out and pin down. I prefer to describe it to myself (when making comparisons, judgments, and discontentment) as "wonder." It is like being completely lost and having no reference point, none of the knowledge you have seems relevant, but it can be resorted to if necessary. There is no thought of how to act, nor of consequences of actions, nor of how good or bad something is. The image that comes to mind for "wonder" is like blurred panoramic scene with lots of movement, but not requiring me to do a thing about it (even though this body is part of the scene). This is the state I move towards when doing the work, particularly when asking "is it true" and "who would you be without that thought".

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/5/14 4:39 AM as a reply to Adam . ..
Here is a quote from Gary Weber who tacks on The Sedona Method to Byron Katie's questions.

"As i used this process(Byron Katie's questions) myself and w/folk, it didn't feel "complete". In looking for something to use with Katie's process, the Sedona Method manifested, created in 1952 by Lester Levenson, a physician sent home by his doctors to die. In this dire state, Lester realized two great truths:

1. His own feelings were the cause of all his problems, not the world or the people in it as he had previously thought.
2. He had the ability to let go of those feelings.

Lester's "releasing method" that became the Sedona method is also simple:

1) Allow yourself to feel what you're feeling in this moment
2) Could you let it go?
3) Would you let it go?
4) When?
5) Repeat until you feel lighter, freer, happier, etc.

IME, put these simple questions after Byron Katie's, and the work is more compete. Byron Katie brings you into the feeling, now use Levenson's approach to let go of it.

you may find that with both processes, there are layers "underneath" that may be more fundamental, and more potent. Handle these the same way."

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/5/14 11:29 AM as a reply to Jack Hatfield.
hey jack,

thank you for the suggestion. I find that asking is it true and who would I be without that thought can be effective for letting go. things are moving fast for me and the only barrier seems to be my own willingness to go deeper so I don't think any other methods are necessary though that method seems like it could very well be effective

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/6/14 4:29 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
So I have been working with the stressful thought "I need to get enlightened" or permutations of it such as: "I am not happy enough" "I need to become actually free" "I need to deal with my fear" "I need to eliminate my aggression" "I should be in harmony with everyone." These thoughts for me are recurrent and stressful.

I have done many "worksheets" with these thoughts:
I need to get enlightened, is it true?
How do I react when I believe i need to get enlightened?
Who would I be without that thought?
Is it just as true that "i dont need to get enlightened?"

But something about this inquiry has always been blocked for me. It's like the paradigm that I need to get enlightened is so pervasive in my life, and indeed it is the cause of the inquiry, that I can't get perspective on the thought enough to question it. This morning felt like the first time the inquiry made a genuine dent in the belief.

Usually when I ask "I need to get enlightened" is it true? It is almost like the syllables are just heard as sounds in my head and no meaning is given to them, whether it is true isn't actually considered. I try to sit with the thought for a while and let the meaning of what I am asking genuinely fill in the empty syllables. Yet it is like my mind is truly closed to even considering for a moment whether it is true. Often I resort to entering a sort of intellectual inquiry, where I make arguments as if to another person. This has never felt effective at an emotional level because it has just been me spitting up things I've heard people say about enlightenment. "I do need to get enlightened because it is wonderful" "I don't need to get enlightened because here I am, the ground is supporting me, my body is fine, everything is working great" Just spitting out these "dead" ideas I have heard from spiritual teachers and philosophers.

This morning, I asked "Is it true that I need to get enlightened?" And instead of defensively jumping into a pre-memorized argument or just refusing to actually ask the question and instead just hearing the sounds of the words, I really asked myself. I asked "seriously, is there any need for me to get enlightened?" And perhaps because I was feeling particularly happy with the world, I for a moment was able to genuinely consider a life without spirituality and the search for enlightenment. The "image"[1] of such a life arose in my mind, and lasted for a fraction of a second, and then "defense" started. A mental door slammed shut on the picture and I was bombarded with thoughts about how meaningless and "ordinary" my life would be without that seeking for enlightenment. Yet that cracking open of the door into the other "polarity" of mind which I left behind when i decided I needed to get enlightened seemed very significant. There were lots of energetic bodily phenomena, a rush of fear etc.

I am now apparently back squarely within the "polarity" where I am 100% closed to "no need to get enlightened." (here I am writing in a practice journal, trying to get enlightened) Yet, I now see it as possible to genuinely look into that thought, though my mind shies away from the inquiry and in this moment I am not willing to even make an effort to inquire again, though I see intellectually that I "should."

The very fact that I am so excited about this implies that I am still trying to get enlightened, and it still seems pretty much unimaginable that I could be someone who is (truly, not just as a trick to get enlightened) not trying to get enlightened...

Usually when I post stream of consciousness type posts like this one, I get no response. I wonder if this is due to unclear expression or just my stream of consciousness not being relatable. I am posting it though because it seems like it would be helpful (solely for me) to have this out there.

[1] for some reason, "images" as such have been really interesting to me lately. They are like a single frame taken from a dream, they include both a visual element as well as an inherent knowledge of the narrative of what's going on, what I have to do about it, and an emotional "feeling." I can find an "image" associated with lots of individual words or more complex ideas. This image of life without a spiritual "search" is seen as a "frame" of me walking to the campus center in the morning to get coffee before class. I notice that I have very little sense of a plan or desire for anything in particular. I notice that I am looking for absolutely nothing "deeper" from life, which is a confusing prospect. It seems like it could be shallow, but peaceful... as well as enjoyable but foolish. I see a happy and peaceful fool, someone beneath everyone else. This is just what I happen to see when imagine the notion of having absolutely no search for something spiritual in life. It is not necessarily what I would put my money on happening, nor is it something I am trying to achieve, it is just what my subconscious mind throws up at the prospect of having no spiritual search.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/8/14 6:49 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Felt bad today, a lot of confusion and unhappiness. It seemed to center around a problem I am having with a friend, but I have been finding that concepts are basically interchangeable as causes of stress. It could be just as true for me to say that I am stressed because I want to have a smoother relationship with this person as it would be if I said it was because I wanted to get enlightened. The beliefs at some level are all the same, they are the desire for things to be better than they are, and it isn't even really possible to separate the beliefs from "me." I am these beliefs, I am stress, stress is the desire that I become a better person/the world become a better place.

Every time I (sincerely) question whether I really need to find something "better" "deeper" "truer" in life or I question whether I really need to get enlightened, it is like I am firing arrow after arrow at myself. If this demand for something deeper was taken away and not replaced with anything then there would really be nothing left of me... so it seems.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/10/14 6:11 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
Adam . .:

I wonder if self awareness is not simply a subtler form of self-consciousness. For me even when what you call self-awareness arises, there is that sense of being "trapped" on the "inside" of that. When I make any comment on what my experience is, or what my actions are like, there is inevitably comparison and discontentment.


Can you remember ever being able to say "this is great!", "this is amazing!" without that reflective awareness having a dampening effect? No matter how rare those experiences might be, they at least show that reflective awareness (awareness that you're experiencing this) isn't inherently painful. That's something I'm certain of. That's why I make the distinction between self-awareness and self-consciousness. (Though I'm well familiar with the dampening effect of suddenly realising you're happy or carefree or whatever, and then, as a result, no longer being so).

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/10/14 7:09 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
Adam . .:

I wonder if self awareness is not simply a subtler form of self-consciousness. For me even when what you call self-awareness arises, there is that sense of being "trapped" on the "inside" of that. When I make any comment on what my experience is, or what my actions are like, there is inevitably comparison and discontentment.


Can you remember ever being able to say "this is great!", "this is amazing!" without that reflective awareness having a dampening effect? No matter how rare those experiences might be, they at least show that reflective awareness (awareness that you're experiencing this) isn't inherently painful. That's something I'm certain of. That's why I make the distinction between self-awareness and self-consciousness. (Though I'm well familiar with the dampening effect of suddenly realising you're happy or carefree or whatever, and then, as a result, no longer being so).


You could be right, I am not sure. It always seem to create a very subtle division, but I am not ready to say that with total certainty.

RE: cittanupassana
Answer
2/10/14 11:39 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
The very fact that I am so excited about this implies that I am still trying to get enlightened, and it still seems pretty much unimaginable that I could be someone who is (truly, not just as a trick to get enlightened) not trying to get enlightened...


Yeah, I don't like the archaic view of "you can't get enlightened if you want it". That's simply a cute idea that they like to idealize. If you notice yourself wanting enlightenment simply observe it like all other phenomena.