Newb Question: Attention on Note vs Object

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Noah, modified 10 Years ago at 1/3/14 6:33 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/3/14 6:33 PM

Newb Question: Attention on Note vs Object

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Hello all, I have a quick technique-related question. I have begun Mahasi noting in both formal meditation sittings and daily life. What plagues me again and again whilst sitting is that it feels like I have to choose between focusing on the voice in my head which notes vs the actual phenomenon being observed. When I really concentrate on what I'm observing, I forget to note or there is not enough 'space' in my attention to note (meaning 100% of my mind is on the sensation).

When I let my attention go, I am able to note continuously. However, I am not as concentrated on the object(s) of attention.

I would assume that a close examination of the object is more important than the note. Or is it more important to get used to noting at first, even if it means sacrificing some concentration/close observation?

I looked around but couldn't find this exact issue addressed in any previous threads. If I'm wrong, please point out the discussion.

Thanks for reading,
Noah
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 1/3/14 8:40 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/3/14 8:01 PM

RE: Newb Question: Attention on Note vs Object

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Noah S:
Hello all, I have a quick technique-related question. I have begun Mahasi noting in both formal meditation sittings and daily life. What plagues me again and again whilst sitting is that it feels like I have to choose between focusing on the voice in my head which notes vs the actual phenomenon being observed. When I really concentrate on what I'm observing, I forget to note or there is not enough 'space' in my attention to note (meaning 100% of my mind is on the sensation).


Have you tried slowing down the notes? Experiment with the speed at which you note. perhaps you are noting too fast to the poin the mental labels seem to becoming more dominant? Perhaps slow it down a little. Wait a few seconds, first noticing the phenomena arising in the moment, then a short note, then wait a few seconds, then another note for whatever is presenting. How fast are you noting?

When I let my attention go, I am able to note continuously. However, I am not as concentrated on the object(s) of attention.


Perhaps you are noting a little too fast. Often it depends on concentration levels and where one may find themselves concerning nanas that conditions what we can see and not see or what the mind finds easier to pay attention to and how fast one can note effectively. We might need to tweak our technique to suit what is going on in the moment. Like I said already, perhaps slowing down the noting speed will give more space to notice what is arising. The noting is there as a tool to keep you honest about what is arising and passing from moment to moment. If the noting is becoming and interruption, experiment with ways of making it not an interruption to paying attention.


I would assume that a close examination of the object is more important than the note. Or is it more important to get used to noting at first, even if it means sacrificing some concentration/close observation?


To paraphrase Mahasi Sayadaw, it is more important to notice phenomena first. End of paraphrase.


Sometimes 'objects' will be extremely fleeting. Let them play out their own path in and of themselves without trying to 'concentrate' on them so they stick around a little longer. Just let the 'objects' arise and pass in and of themselves in their own time.... not seeing details, seeing details, not seeing details, ....it will fluctuate like this depending on stages and mind states. The trick is to accept it all and not give weight to the act of seeing details over not seeing details and viceversa. Same, same. Let seeing details happen in and of itself when the moment matures in and of itself.

Nick
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Noah, modified 10 Years ago at 1/4/14 7:09 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/4/14 7:09 PM

RE: Newb Question: Attention on Note vs Object

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Thanks for your answer Nikolai,

It seems like there are advantages to both observing closely/concentrating and to letting sensations pass/focusing more on noting. As you said, it depends on my mind-state at the time. I'll continue to experiment with speed of noting, attention, etc. I have definitely been having some good results across the board.
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Jason Snyder, modified 10 Years ago at 1/4/14 7:51 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/4/14 7:51 PM

RE: Newb Question: Attention on Note vs Object

Posts: 186 Join Date: 10/25/13 Recent Posts
I have the same general issue, it feels like by noting I am sacrificing bare awareness. I asked about this in a different post and I found this response by RichardZen helpfull:

Noting is a feedback loop to keep you honest about your consistency in mindfulness and it's good to use to notice subtle areas you might be trying to ignore. By looking for elements of the 4 foundations of mindfulness in your noting practice you are more likely to notice what's there than if you just started with bare awareness and didn't know what to look for. Of course you could figure out everything the Buddha learned by yourself but what are the chances you would see that much detail?

Sometimes noting slower while noticing more detail is better than too much fast conceptual noting. I'm more into bare awareness now but still use noting here and there where needed (new things I didn't notice before).

What I usually do now is just look at what the thoughts and narratives are doing to me. Asking the questions "what did that thought do to my body?", "why think about this now?", "is the peace still here?" or "how is this thinking affecting my choice?" This is zeroing in on the mental habits that are influencing you constantly. Usually it's influencing you to do the same things you've done before whether they are healthy or not and they are always perceiving/conceptualizing or objectifying something to like or dislike. Asking the questions would only be the beginning and eventually you can just silently notice whether there is stress present or not, because it's all registering in your body anyway. Verbalizing isn't necessary to ask these questions so it's another feedback loop to check in to what's happening instead of drifting.

When you let go of the narratives the mental silence and relief of stress should be compared to when you're daydreaming about likes and dislikes, or even when you're fabricating a concentration state. You'll eventually get really good at noticing when the stress is just about to start and then you just drop the narratives and get on with your main goals. Try doing something difficult and notice how stressed the mind gets and try to let go of whatever mental narratives are happening until you feel better and just continue with your tasks. Notice the real difference between tiredness and aversion. Eg. if you're exercising and thinking about complaining thoughts compared to having a quiescence of mind you will likely stop sooner before your body is actually tired.

Notice that the intention to pay attention has a little stress in it. Notice how thoughts are trying to experience things that aren't actually happening. There's always a chemical payoff to these narratives like a little drug addict that wants more serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin etc. Notice how resting in the now doesn't need much pushing/striving/intentions because consciousness is already noticing experience. A person doesn't need to screw-up their face and furrow their brow to concentrate. Keep relaxing tension in the body as it arises because it always does (especially after stressful thoughts).

As the brain sees how it's stressing itself out the brain will gradually want to stay in the moment. That's what most of the mental shifts are: which is the brain bit by bit resting in the now instead of "resting" in mental narrative. Resting in mental stories always hurts more (cortisol). The amygdala always gives you a carrot (happy chemicals) and a stick (sad chemicals) and unfortunately because the carrot is impermanent and subject to outside conditions we end up getting more of the stick. Let go of the carrot and the stick (within reason of course) and you'll have more peace.

Notice when stress is there and when it isn't there and what makes the difference (perception of likes and dislikes). Try and get on with your life as per usual while still checking in to see what can be mentally let go of, so the peacefulness you had experienced before returns and remains more consistent in your life. Sometimes going into a concentration jhana and enjoying the rest and then seeing the benefits fade will help because you can see the types of thoughts that made it fade to the point of needing to get back to the jhana, which is another form of stress because it's just another carrot that disappeared. Letting go in the long run is less stressful than pushing for a jhana and it also lets those mental habits that bother you weaken so the impulses will fade and be less of a problem. Concentration just blocks them temporarily. It's like trying to forget a bad mental habit on purpose.

Make sense?

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