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How do people's 4th Path experience compare?

How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
attainments 4th path arahat
Answer
2/12/14 7:34 PM
Firstly I want to say, I first discovered Dharma Overground two years ago after my first experience of the the stage of Arising Passing away. Because of this site, I was able to accelerate my practice all the way through the Paths. For this I am thankful to everyone here, especially to Daniel for his hard work on MCTB.

Recently I believe that I attained 4th Path and want check against other’s experience by listing what I “can” do and what I “cannot” do or what has happened and share some thoughts about the whole thing as well. I noticed that people seem quite dissatisfied with 4th Path especially when put against the ideals of the Arahat and many are moving on to PCE. At least I want to establish what we do gain from 4th Path. So let’s get started…


What I have experienced:

1) Probably the biggest fruit of attaining 4th Path, and root of my gratitude, is that I can objectively say that my defilements, that is, all desire, attachment, aversions, anger, pride, jealousy, and all negative mind states in general, have been reduced to only 10% of what it was before I started Vipassana. Defilements is one of the measures of progress and enlightenment.This is based on watching my mind and my reactions very carefully without interference and comparing it to my past reactions and habits. After attaining 1st Path, my defilements seemed to decreased by ~30%, then another ~25% after 2nd, another ~20% again, then 15% after 4th with 10% remaining. And this is across the board on all attachments and aversions. If I had a great attachment to pizza during retreat, it is only 10% of what it was. If I have a small pet peeve with someone at work, it is only 10% of that. It doesn’t seem to matter the original defilement or magnitude, it is still 10% of whatever was there. Speaking of magnitude, this reduction is across the board in terms of different dimensions of the defilements as well. For example, if an explosion of anger arises, the depth or bite of the anger, how long it lasts, its “broadness”, and the range of triggers are all reduced to… 10%. To me this is absolutely amazing and I cannot be more grateful.

Don’t get me wrong, 10% of ginormous defilements is still 10% too much. And I still have all that. I liken this to at first having $100,000 worth of defilements in your savings account. It’s a lot of money without going overboard. Cutting that down to $10,000 is only 10% left. But $10,000 is still a lot of money if you happen to lose it. So even 10% defilements is still too much and I won’t stop until I cut it all to zero. I just want to be clear that by no means am I even near done.

2) Besides defilements, something interesting I am able to do (when my mind is pure) is cognize the formation of conceptions and experience the bare field of sensations of the 6 senses at the same time. This experience is amazing because not only do you truly witness the mind forming conceptions of the reality around you that you normally perceived as real, you get to compare it to the bare sensations it is attempting to define, and see how wrong it is! If there was an experience of “emptiness” this would be it. You get to see exactly what is empty, and empty of what all at once, and see exactly how it is your mind tells you lies through those mental formations. This holds true for the sense of self as well. When in this state, nothing affects me because I truly perceive all as self-created illusions trying to grasp at the 6 sense objects.

3) Another measure of progress is the presence of the sense of self. Nowadays, my sense of self has been permanently (seemingly) reduced, probably again, to 10% of what it was before. It is not completely gone by any means, except possibly during a good sitting. In fact, it feels like I, or my sense of self, survives only as a fragment of its former self somewhere inside this body/mind which is not mine. It is as if, during each Path attainment, my “I” withdrew more and more, like the tide receding from the beach. Even now, these hands typing away seem like just another animated object in my visual awareness.

Speaking of the “I”, I can say that it is directly proportionate to the amount of suffering or defilements I experience. If it is not present, I do not suffer no matter what happens. If it is present then I am susceptible in proportion to the magnitude of its presence. From this, I can infer that if I can 100% be without an “I”, I will not suffer.

4) Another thing that arises is, when my mind is pure (with minimal self), there is a general sense of peace and joy that naturally arises. Sometimes I am just sitting there being in my default state, and I notice that it is already present. I suppose I can describe this feeling as an undercurrent of the Four Abodes. There is joy and there is equanimity. The other two, compassion and loving-kindness does arise easily with external triggers. There is just a general sense of peace, that things are known, and all is alright. Again if there are defilements or a strong “I” present, this state does not arise.


What I did not experience:

1) First, I want to make clear that I am still uncertain of my Path attainment because, without a doubt, I have not experienced cessation or any of the stages beyond Stage 11 Equanimity except for Review. I made a post about it when I first made 1st Path over a year ago and it still stands. After I go past Stage 11, I experience these unknown stages not previously described anywhere including MCTB, before arriving at Stage 16 where the stages begin to cycle. However, the psychological effects are clear and valid. And the stages take 10-15 weeks of cycling to reset before I can start on the next Path. But I do not experience Stages 12 – 15 the way MCTB or anyone else describes, including cessation. This still puzzles me to this day. But I cannot complain about the effects of whatever I got to my mind, and it gets better with each retreat. To further verify that the stages do not reset after 4th Path, I am currently waiting a few more months to confirm as the stages today are still currently cycling.

2) Something else that I cannot attain is good concentration. For all that I experienced, my concentration ability is still amateurish. At times I cannot count past 20 breaths without a thought arising unchecked. This leads to the subject of the Jhanas. Still, I can only attain soft Jhanas as I posted nearly two years ago. But I cannot get hard Jhanas or go to any other non-traditional jhanic states like the “Pureland” Jhanas. This puzzles me because, based on posts, this is somewhat a requirement for attaining 3rd or 4th Path. Regardless, I cannot do this, and plan to devote an entire retreat just to concentration practice.

3) Also, MCTB mentions most people on their way to 4th and beyond experience some kind of siddhi (magick) experience. I have absolutely not experienced any of this, probably due to my lack of concentration ability.

So there it is, this is what I’ve been able to do and not do after getting through 4th Path.

For me overall, the amount of suffering and anguish in life is just reduced to a minimum. I can say, unlike any other time in my adult life, I am “satisfied” and at peace, something I have never felt before. And if my life were to end here, I would be satisfied with my attainment. I suppose this is why I am puzzled that people are going to PCE. Isn’t there more we can follow according to the Buddha’s teachings if the results so far have been promising? Or am I missing something entirely? I will definitely give PCE a try one day.

If it is true that there is nothing more Vipassana can provide after 4th, I will switch over to Tibetan Buddhism and see what they have to offer in there neck of the woods. So far, emptiness meditation seems promising, further reducing the “self” which, seems to be the root misery and defiling mind states.

Please provide comments on your experience of 4th and after. Does it match up with mine? What is different? How much defilements have been reduced? What about overall suffering? How is your sense of self or "I"? Is it significantly reduced like mine, or is it gone completely? Have I missed something else I should mention?

Lastly, has anyone continued to make progress beyond 4th Path by continuing with Buddhist meditation?

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 10:06 AM as a reply to Charles B.
what actually make you believe you are already at 4th path?

to me from your description it seems you are similar in path level as me and I rate myself as at most 2nd path in only model that matter: ten fetter model

you can have insights that will sound 4th path and will actually be needed to formulate true 4th path but that doesn't mean it is already 4th path. It have to go from knowing to KNOWING and that may take years, decades even to really sink in!

there are a lot empty arahats at DhO and reason they are not satisfied with their attainments is because they have not yet done it. They may have done something but not IT. It's that simple =)

as for magick I do experience some of this stuff lately and it imho have to do more with visualization than concentration.

anyhow, 4th path or not keep doing your stuff as it really sound like you are going in right direction emoticon

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 11:16 AM as a reply to Charles B.
Howdy Charles,
i'm really happy for you that you have reduced your attachment / suffering to such a noticable degree. i have been at this stuff for a while now and despite some great retreats, jhanic experiences, obvious personal progress i cannot claim even 1st path due to not having experienced a clear cessation nor any of the immediate deepenings of insight etc. following one.

i also cannot pin down a specific point where cycling began and then settled into the 'next path grind'.

i'm interested to see the replies to this post by people who have experienced the classic pattern outlined in daniel's book.

cheers

tom

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 11:29 AM as a reply to Charles B.
This doesn't sound like 4th path as Dan describes and experiences it.

To summarize your descriptions:

1) Some negative stuff is now only 10% of what it was when you started
2) You are capable of tuning your attention to emptiness in a certain way
3) Your 'sense of self' is also only 10% of what it when I started
4) Sometimes you get a general sense of peace and joy

Compare:
Daniel M. Ingram:
Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.


There is not any overlap at all in your descriptions and Dan's descriptions.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 7:07 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
I can't read Daniel's description without getting some wonky, unpleasant sensations around my solar plexus that make me stop immediately. Does this mean I am enlightened? emoticon

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 8:32 PM as a reply to Charles B.
Thanks to everyone for responding.

Indeed, I may be completely mistaken in my understanding. The only reason I believe I have completed Mahasi 4th Path is because I thought a Path is defined by completing one round of all 16 insight stages. And the stages are completed when reaching Stage 16 Review. At this point the stages cycle naturally over and over until they reset. After they reset, the process is repeated again and again until we complete them a total of four times. After this, the stages will no longer reset and 4th Path is attained. Is this not true?

For me, this has happened. I am still waiting to see if the 4th round of cycling will reset to confirm.

Let me know where this is incorrect or attaining 4th Path can be done without this. If so I am definitely mistaken and withdraw my question with embarrassment! But, this is the point of my post, to verify what is going on.

To Beoman's post, you are correct, sir. After reading the linked posted, I do not overlap with those qualifications in any way. However, this brings a little puzzlement. No agency, no doer, and centerlessness I take to mean utterly no more sense of or perception of 'self'. If self is what brings defilements (attachment, avers, del) and suffering, then those should also cease with 4th Path attainment. Yet, it seems many who describe themselves as completing Mahasi 4th Path still describe suffering and move on to PCE. MCTB also describes anger and agitation arising from 4th pather. Can you help to clear up my confusion?

It seems I still have misunderstanding of the maps, which is fine with me as long as progress is being made, and I appreciate anyone to clarify where I am mistaken.

Thanks to all.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 10:22 PM as a reply to Charles B.
Charles B:
Thanks to everyone for responding.

Indeed, I may be completely mistaken in my understanding. The only reason I believe I have completed Mahasi 4th Path is because I thought a Path is defined by completing one round of all 16 insight stages. And the stages are completed when reaching Stage 16 Review. At this point the stages cycle naturally over and over until they reset. After they reset, the process is repeated again and again until we complete them a total of four times. After this, the stages will no longer reset and 4th Path is attained. Is this not true?

Well maybe as Mahasi said it initially:

When the meditator has thus become skilled in achieving the fruition attainment, he should resolutely set his mind upon the task of attaining to the higher paths and fruitions. What should now be done by one who has set himself that task? Just as before, he should carry out the practice of noticing (anything occurring) at the six sense doors.
[...]
When, however, the spiritual faculties are mature, one who carries out the practice of insight for attaining to a higher path will find that immediately after equanimity about formations has reached its culmination, the higher path and fruition arise in the same way as before (i.e., as at the time of the first path and fruition), that is to say, it is preceded by the stages of adaptation and maturity. After the fruition, the stages of reviewing, etc., that follow are also the same as before.

Anything else concerning the method of practice for insight and the progress of knowledge right up to arahantship can be understood in precisely the same way as described. Hence there is no need to elaborate it any further.


However the way it worked out for Dan and the way it's understood here is that: one cycle gets you stream entry. a second one gets you to 2nd path. then X more gets you to 3rd path, where X is a large number, and somewhere along the way cycles stop making sense, you get cycles within cycles, etc. Then 4th path is either Y cycles where Y is way bigger than X, or more cycles aren't even necessary per se but it's something outside of the cycles.

Whether that is what Mahasi Sayadaw meant... I know not. He also describes the fruition attainment differently than it's understood here. Maybe he's talking about something else entirely?
One should also set one's mind resolutely upon the further tasks: to be able to repeat the achievement of fruition attainment, to achieve it rapidly, and, at the time of achievement, to abide in it a long time, say for six, ten, fifteen or thirty minutes, or for an hour or more.
[...]
The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.


Charles B:
To Beoman's post, you are correct, sir. After reading the linked posted, I do not overlap with those qualifications in any way. However, this brings a little puzzlement. No agency, no doer, and centerlessness I take to mean utterly no more sense of or perception of 'self'. If self is what brings defilements (attachment, avers, del) and suffering, then those should also cease with 4th Path attainment. Yet, it seems many who describe themselves as completing Mahasi 4th Path still describe suffering and move on to PCE. MCTB also describes anger and agitation arising from 4th pather. Can you help to clear up my confusion?

I cannot, other to say that what Dan means by 4th path clearly does not eradicate all forms of suffering. There's definitely some mismatch here between some or all of these: self, sense/perception of self, agency, doer, center, defilements, suffering.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 11:59 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
However the way it worked out for Dan and the way it's understood here is that: one cycle gets you stream entry. a second one gets you to 2nd path. then X more gets you to 3rd path, where X is a large number, and somewhere along the way cycles stop making sense, you get cycles within cycles, etc. Then 4th path is either Y cycles where Y is way bigger than X, or more cycles aren't even necessary per se but it's something outside of the cycles.


Ahah... so the number of genuine cycles does not equal number of Paths. This is great since it means Vipassana has not extinguished its usefulness. However, if this is so, what then is the marker for 3rd and 4th Paths. It seems it is not so clear anymore after 2nd. So the ten fetters model is not used here when talking about Mahasi 3rd and 4th Path, right? Then what is if not the cycles?

The other thing I don't understand is that I am quite happy with what I have achieved even if it has not even reached 4th Path. Why are others dissatisfied with what they have achieved after 4th? I have heard some describe it as "not even close" to the ten fetters model. Am I being deluded in thinking I only have 10% defilements to go? That is possible too I admit.

Ultimately I feel that there is a disconnect between my experiences and others who have "moved on" from vipassana after 4th Path. This is the real reason why I posted to get some understanding on what's going on.

And, by the way, from my limited experience, I am willing to challenge that completely and permanently removing the self does indeed permanently remove all suffering, and that there is something else going on. This is because when I can remove the self temporarily, it holds true. I do not suffer when I hear news of someone I don't know lose his job/wife/dog. If I perceive myself no different than this person, i.e. all are just objects without relating to any 'me', why would I suffer when bad things happen to me? This analogy is experientially valid for me, even if I can only hold it temporarily. Again, there is a disconnect I am not understanding. And I do believe that Kenneth Folk (a 4th Pather from what I know) said the same thing from experience.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/13/14 11:51 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
Paweł K:
what actually make you believe you are already at 4th path?

to me from your description it seems you are similar in path level as me and I rate myself as at most 2nd path in only model that matter: ten fetter model

you can have insights that will sound 4th path and will actually be needed to formulate true 4th path but that doesn't mean it is already 4th path. It have to go from knowing to KNOWING and that may take years, decades even to really sink in!

there are a lot empty arahats at DhO and reason they are not satisfied with their attainments is because they have not yet done it. They may have done something but not IT. It's that simple =)

as for magick I do experience some of this stuff lately and it imho have to do more with visualization than concentration.

anyhow, 4th path or not keep doing your stuff as it really sound like you are going in right direction emoticon


I completely agree that in the end the only model that matters is the 10 fetters. It just seems that the Mahasi model is clear and valid to based discussions on, like the one I am trying to have, even if Mahasi 4th Path does not achieve 10 fetters. But now, I am not even sure the Mahasi/MCTB is that clear to begin with. Or it is my own misunderstandings.

By the way, if you are where I am, are you still practicing vipassana? Do you find that you are still making clear progress on the 10 fetters model?

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 12:41 AM as a reply to Charles B.
4th path is not the end, it is a major attainment though. 4th path is the first true glimpse of emptiness, or that which cannot be conceptualized. After having seen this, or rather attaining the seeing of this, one still has to make the long journey to understand that we are none other than this emptiness ourselves.

Suffering does not stop after 4th path! 4th path is not the end! There's so much more to go. As for why you're satisfied and other of higher attainment are seemingly not, understand this: Enlightenment is the end of suffering. This means one must get FULLY enlightened to end suffering. The whole path is a continuum with suffering on the one end and not suffering on the other, and a range of experience in between. And people are different in what satisfies them, what matters to them, and how they express themselves. The path of insight does indeed lead to reduced suffering, in that it is genuine.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 1:30 AM as a reply to Charles B.
Charles B:
Thanks to everyone for responding.

Indeed, I may be completely mistaken in my understanding. The only reason I believe I have completed Mahasi 4th Path is because I thought a Path is defined by completing one round of all 16 insight stages. And the stages are completed when reaching Stage 16 Review. At this point the stages cycle naturally over and over until they reset. After they reset, the process is repeated again and again until we complete them a total of four times. After this, the stages will no longer reset and 4th Path is attained. Is this not true?

For me, this has happened. I am still waiting to see if the 4th round of cycling will reset to confirm.

Let me know where this is incorrect or attaining 4th Path can be done without this. If so I am definitely mistaken and withdraw my question with embarrassment! But, this is the point of my post, to verify what is going on.


Until you have reached Stream Entry, you'll cycle through stages 4-11 repeatedly. It sounds to me like that's what you've been doing. It seems you have mistaken this cycling for achieving a Path and reaching the review stage. The stages are always cycling, whether or not you've achieved a Path.

A Path is defined by achieving fruition. Since you haven't achieved fruition, I'm guessing you still haven't reached Stream Entry and have just been cycling around without having attained any Paths.

You will know you got Stream Entry when you experience stages 12-16 as described in MCTB, which you say you haven't yet done, right?

By the way, the stages continue to cycle indefinitely at every path, even after 4th Path.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 1:42 AM as a reply to T DC.
T DC:
4th path is not the end, it is a major attainment though. 4th path is the first true glimpse of emptiness, or that which cannot be conceptualized. After having seen this, or rather attaining the seeing of this, one still has to make the long journey to understand that we are none other than this emptiness ourselves.

Suffering does not stop after 4th path! 4th path is not the end! There's so much more to go. As for why you're satisfied and other of higher attainment are seemingly not, understand this: Enlightenment is the end of suffering. This means one must get FULLY enlightened to end suffering. The whole path is a continuum with suffering on the one end and not suffering on the other, and a range of experience in between. And people are different in what satisfies them, what matters to them, and how they express themselves. The path of insight does indeed lead to reduced suffering, in that it is genuine.


Yes, I completely agree that the path of insight leads to a reduction of suffering. What I would really like to know is will it take us to the end, not just eliminate suffering in this life, but cut the root so that it is impossible to experience suffering in the future, in future lives or in the void as they call it? But at least suffering should be eliminated in this life. T DC, if you have attained Mahasi/MCTB 4th, do you feel that you are continuing to make clear and valid progress? And are you continuing insight practice as your vehicle to do so?

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 2:18 AM as a reply to J C.
J C:
Until you have reached Stream Entry, you'll cycle through stages 4-11 repeatedly. It sounds to me like that's what you've been doing. It seems you have mistaken this cycling for achieving a Path and reaching the review stage. The stages are always cycling, whether or not you've achieved a Path.

A Path is defined by achieving fruition. Since you haven't achieved fruition, I'm guessing you still haven't reached Stream Entry and have just been cycling around without having attained any Paths.

You will know you got Stream Entry when you experience stages 12-16 as described in MCTB, which you say you haven't yet done, right?

By the way, the stages continue to cycle indefinitely at every path, even after 4th Path.


Yes, this is a problem with my even claiming to attain stream entry. I have not experienced cessation. Some have suggested that sometimes it is difficult detect even if you do experience it. But I do not believe this is the case with me. This is still a mystery to me that I have not received a valid answer for. I have a theory but it is useless to discuss or even adopt. However, I do not believe that I can get to where my mind is today without "completing" the Stages. And I have no doubt that I arrived at the 16th stage of Review.

The reason is because up to Stage 11, I became very familiar with each stage and know their patterns, behaviors, and how to deal with each one, even before my 1st Path attainment. The stages themselves may cycle down but they will not cycle up without meditative effort. For example, once the stages reset, lets say I start off a new retreat at 4th stage A&P and make it all the way to 10th. If I drop my meditation and pick it back up after a few days, I will restart at 4th, seemingly losing the progress at 10th. But I will not immediately start at 10th. However, if I continue familiarizing myself with 10th, during my next sitting I will start at 10th. But, my mind will not auto cycle to 11th when I am asleep! I can only get to 11th with meditative effort. Even after I get to 11th the first time, I will start at 10th again and again and have to get to 11th again, though with less effort. Once I am practiced enough at 11th, I will start each sitting at 11th bypassing 10th. But if I drop my practice for a few days, I will have to restart at a lower stage and make it back up to 11th. But I will not go beyond 11th automatically. This is the behavior of the stages from 1 or 4 up to 11. And there is no baseline shift that is significant or permanent.

But, once I get past Stage 11. Everything is off the table. There are stages that arise, consistently after 11, that are not described anywhere in MCTB or anything I've read on the Stages of Insight. I will not go into detail here since I described them in detail in a post after it happened.

What I do know is there is always a fundamental baseline shift through these post-11 stages (when not in Stage 16 Review) and the stages start to cycle automatically from 4th up through those post 11 stages then back to 4th, even when I am asleep. No meditation or effort required. The cycling stages themselves have a different quality. They are lighter and more difficult to detect than when they stop cycling. What I can also tell is when they stop cycling, reset and a new Path arises, the stages settle down, attain a 'heavy' quality, and no longer cycle automatically such as when I am asleep. Then I go through them again with meditative effort, and reach another baseline shift, something that does not happen when the stages are cycling in Review.

I have no doubt that I complete whatever stages my mind goes through until reaching review and attaining a baseline shift. And I do not believe that my significant reduction of defilements is possible without at least stream entry or some variant.

This may not be a satisfactory answer which I am comfortable with because it is truly a mystery to me even taken as a whole. But I do know what I have gained, whatever the label. And I do not have attachment to labeling my progress or attainment, or lack of.

It would be nice if somebody could swoop in a provide a good answer, besides you gained nothing... which all experiential evidence suggests otherwise.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 2:53 AM as a reply to Charles B.
Charles B:

Yes, this is a problem with my even claiming to attain stream entry. I have not experienced cessation. Some have suggested that sometimes it is difficult detect even if you do experience it. But I do not believe this is the case with me. This is still a mystery to me that I have not received a valid answer for. I have a theory but it is useless to discuss or even adopt.


What's your theory?


But, once I get past Stage 11. Everything is off the table. There are stages that arise, consistently after 11, that are not described anywhere in MCTB or anything I've read on the Stages of Insight. I will not go into detail here since I described them in detail in a post after it happened.


Can you link me or sum it up? How many stages and what are they like?


This may not be a satisfactory answer which I am comfortable with because it is truly a mystery to me even taken as a whole. But I do know what I have gained, whatever the label. And I do not have attachment to labeling my progress or attainment, or lack of.

It would be nice if somebody could swoop in a provide a good answer, besides you gained nothing... which all experiential evidence suggests otherwise.


Well I would suggest you get a session with Kenneth Folk, or another meditation teacher - he could probably tell you where you are and what's going on.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 4:31 AM as a reply to Charles B.
First three paths you are gathering energy from your body, its limited.
After 4th path you have connected, can recognize unlimited source of energy.

Unlimited source of energy is your awareness. Meditation is nothing else than mixing yin and yang. Opening chakras so you could have more amounts of energy. There is a lot more paths/levels than arahant 4th path.

I suffer, crave, getting angry, jelaous. I have all same stuff what i had prior meditation. I have sense of self.
I meditate only awareness style.

I suffer because of the energy looking a way out through my senses(one reasion and other reason is i am dumb etc). I know it because when i watch movie or drink or daydream suffering will dissappear. When i come aware suffering comes back. Suffering for me is a key to progress, it exactly pinpoints what i need to do.
Ofcourse i don't suffer over things what were on 1st, 2nd, 4th path or 5th..

But 4th path is hard to get, no doubt about it. Every next level is/may be harder and longer, needs more effort..
There is not much materials about 4th path because not many reach there and not many will go beyond fourth level. Its very confusing also because for example 2nd path could mistake himslef for much higher and can relate to every phylosophical thought or know who he is. Even non pathers think they know who they are.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 8:59 AM as a reply to J C.
J C:

Can you link me or sum it up? How many stages and what are they like?


The entire post-11 stage or stages last only a few minutes at most, the longest and most intense being the first time through (1st time ever passing Stage 11). They really are just a process of sensations with a certain behavior that I have never seen described elsewhere.

Here it is:


1) Starting from stage 10 re-observation.

2) Equanimity, then high Equanimity.

3) Unknown Stage 1: Spacious sensations from Equanimity start to close in on and concentrate around middle of forehead. There is lots of activity there. Can feel something is "about to happen". Lasts 2-3 minutes.

4) Unknown Stage 2: This is what I'm calling the Ecstasy stage. Entire body is flooded with high energy sensations. Heavy sensations from bottom half of head down through body. There is a feeling of being squeezed by waves of sensations in the body. Top half of the head has the most activity out of all with highest levels of energy and the subtlest, finest sensations. However, sensations there are so fine, can barely feel anything, like from the brow up, the head is numb. But activity can be felt by subtle waves and occasional high energy sensation popping out. Feels like all sensations through body is moving towards the crown and outwards. Can "feel" there are sensations above the head. Feels like consciousness is trying to exit out the crown. This stage lasts for 2 minutes.

5) Unknown Stage 3: All sensations die down to very low energy or low activity and spread out evenly through body. It's almost like releasing sexual tension and the previous stage was the orgasm, excuse the analogy. Sensations remain stable for about 10-30sec before moving to next stage. This is the stage with the lowest energy sensations and lasts the shortest, it actually may be considered as the conclusion of Stage 2. Lasts 30sec.

6) Unknown Stage 4: Sensations return to concentrate around the forehead like Stage1. Then, remaining grouped together, the sensations slowly travel from the forehead down to the chest as a group spreading out into the torso once there. Then sensations become slightly hardened as it returns to Re-observation. The cycle starts all over again. Stage lasts 2 minutes.

Again, no cessation, no Fruition, unless it was so fast it would have been impossible for me to catch.


And there is always a baseline shift of less self and less suffering after this during a legitimate insight cycle.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 11:57 AM as a reply to Charles B.
Charles B:
J C:

Can you link me or sum it up? How many stages and what are they like?


The entire post-11 stage or stages last only a few minutes at most, the longest and most intense being the first time through (1st time ever passing Stage 11). They really are just a process of sensations with a certain behavior that I have never seen described elsewhere.

Here it is:


1) Starting from stage 10 re-observation.

2) Equanimity, then high Equanimity.

3) Unknown Stage 1: Spacious sensations from Equanimity start to close in on and concentrate around middle of forehead. There is lots of activity there. Can feel something is "about to happen". Lasts 2-3 minutes.

4) Unknown Stage 2: This is what I'm calling the Ecstasy stage. Entire body is flooded with high energy sensations. Heavy sensations from bottom half of head down through body. There is a feeling of being squeezed by waves of sensations in the body. Top half of the head has the most activity out of all with highest levels of energy and the subtlest, finest sensations. However, sensations there are so fine, can barely feel anything, like from the brow up, the head is numb. But activity can be felt by subtle waves and occasional high energy sensation popping out. Feels like all sensations through body is moving towards the crown and outwards. Can "feel" there are sensations above the head. Feels like consciousness is trying to exit out the crown. This stage lasts for 2 minutes.

5) Unknown Stage 3: All sensations die down to very low energy or low activity and spread out evenly through body. It's almost like releasing sexual tension and the previous stage was the orgasm, excuse the analogy. Sensations remain stable for about 10-30sec before moving to next stage. This is the stage with the lowest energy sensations and lasts the shortest, it actually may be considered as the conclusion of Stage 2. Lasts 30sec.

6) Unknown Stage 4: Sensations return to concentrate around the forehead like Stage1. Then, remaining grouped together, the sensations slowly travel from the forehead down to the chest as a group spreading out into the torso once there. Then sensations become slightly hardened as it returns to Re-observation. The cycle starts all over again. Stage lasts 2 minutes.

Again, no cessation, no Fruition, unless it was so fast it would have been impossible for me to catch.


And there is always a baseline shift of less self and less suffering after this during a legitimate insight cycle.


And you don't think that sounds like an A&P event? Sounds like it to me. I think you're just cycling around and going back to A&P without getting stream entry. Just meditating reduces the sense of self and reduces suffering even without any attainment.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 1:13 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
However the way it worked out for Dan and the way it's understood here is that: one cycle gets you stream entry. a second one gets you to 2nd path. then X more gets you to 3rd path, where X is a large number, and somewhere along the way cycles stop making sense, you get cycles within cycles, etc. Then 4th path is either Y cycles where Y is way bigger than X, or more cycles aren't even necessary per se but it's something outside of the cycles.


Hi Charles,

Daniel tells in MCTB page 382 that he attained stream entry in January 1996, second path in July 1996, third path towards the end of 1996 and staid there for almost seven years, going through 27 full new paths before attaining arahatship in April 2003.

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 2:00 PM as a reply to Charles B.
@Charles B regarding initial post:

Equanimity?

RE: How do people's 4th Path experience compare?
Answer
2/14/14 6:51 PM as a reply to Charles B.
I have some specific questions that may be helpful to draw parallels to my experiences...If you don't mind I would then be willing to make a guess at where you are to the best of my ability. I have some guesses now based off several things you have said but I need a bit more info.
Charles B:
What I have experienced:
1) Probably the biggest fruit of attaining 4th Path, and root of my gratitude, is that I can objectively say that my defilements, that is, all desire, attachment, aversions, anger, pride, jealousy, and all negative mind states in general, have been reduced to only 10% of what it was before I started Vipassana.

Your discussion about defilements may or may not be path related. Have you tested your "defilements, that is, all desire, attachment, aversions, anger, pride, jealousy, and all negative mind states in general"? It sounds like you are saying meditation in general has helped and approaching life from an Equanimous state had helped you immensely. Have you spent time with your family/difficult people to test this? If I was in a cave I would be Equanimous all the time....it's only around 2 fighting young kids that lets me see how far I have to go in this....Anyway, congratulations on this major achievement.

Charles B:

2) Besides defilements, something interesting I am able to do (when my mind is pure) is cognize the formation of conceptions and experience the bare field of sensations of the 6 senses at the same time. This experience is amazing because not only do you truly witness the mind forming conceptions of the reality around you that you normally perceived as real, you get to compare it to the bare sensations it is attempting to define, and see how wrong it is! If there was an experience of “emptiness” this would be it. You get to see exactly what is empty, and empty of what all at once, and see exactly how it is your mind tells you lies through those mental formations. This holds true for the sense of self as well. When in this state, nothing affects me because I truly perceive all as self-created illusions trying to grasp at the 6 sense objects.

Explain what you mean by "(when my mind is pure)"; what do you do to do this? When you say "When in this state, nothing affects me because I truly perceive all as self-created illusions trying to grasp at the 6 sense objects." What do you do to enter this state?
Charles B:

3) Another measure of progress is the presence of the sense of self. Nowadays, my sense of self has been permanently (seemingly) reduced, probably again, to 10% of what it was before. It is not completely gone by any means, except possibly during a good sitting. In fact, it feels like I, or my sense of self, survives only as a fragment of its former self somewhere inside this body/mind which is not mine. It is as if, during each Path attainment, my “I” withdrew more and more, like the tide receding from the beach. Even now, these hands typing away seem like just another animated object in my visual awareness.

Can you go into detail of the I/self reduction shifts path by path? What happened 1st path....what happened next etc? You mention your hands typing animatedly, is this always or do you have to shift focus for this to be prevalent? What stage did this happen at?
Charles B:

Speaking of the “I”, I can say that it is directly proportionate to the amount of suffering or defilements I experience. If it is not present, I do not suffer no matter what happens. If it is present then I am susceptible in proportion to the magnitude of its presence. From this, I can infer that if I can 100% be without an “I”, I will not suffer.

So the I/self comes and goes? There is magnitude? Please explain.
Charles B:

4) Another thing that arises is, when my mind is pure (with minimal self), there is a general sense of peace and joy that naturally arises. Sometimes I am just sitting there being in my default state, and I notice that it is already present. I suppose I can describe this feeling as an undercurrent of the Four Abodes. There is joy and there is equanimity. The other two, compassion and loving-kindness does arise easily with external triggers. There is just a general sense of peace, that things are known, and all is alright. Again if there are defilements or a strong “I” present, this state does not arise.

To clarify, do you mean when negative emotional states occur this obscures the general positive ones?

I'd be happy to video chat with you on Google hangouts if you have an account....message me if interested.
You have some good stuff happening, I'm glad you are happy with the results so far....that is what is important isn't it? Progress that has positive effects?
Good luck
~D