[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]Hi Claudiu,
I appreciate your well thought out responses.
Although my tone and general attitude towards AF is admittedly skeptical. It is never my intention to attack the AF movement or its practitioners. How can I possibly be against people who seek to be happy and harmless...
I hope to continue this dialogue further...
Sure, I have fun dialoguing in a light-hearted manner.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
e. Fear causes your heartbeat to increase. Your heartbeat increasing is a physical thing, not affective - but the fear is affective.
Consider the following...
If a person sees a tiger and their heart rate increases, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?
Hmm, maybe. Why is their heart rate increasing? Consider this quote:
Richard:
I also watched an account on television, by a U.S. naval pilot flying off carriers during the battle of Midway, and other battles that followed, where he spoke of himself and other pilots experiencing fear prior to take-off. He said that, instead of trying to overcome fear like his buddies, he would ‘go into the fear itself’ (direct quote). He would encourage it to grow and increase in intensity until, sitting strapped into the pilot’s seat as the plane catapulted down the flight-deck, the very intensity of terror would propel him into ‘another world of utter calm’ (or words to that effect) wherein all his senses were heightened and he was spontaneously super-alert ... without any effort. He was able to conduct his designated sortie with outstanding assurance, born out of the enhanced clarity of his unafraid state of being ... until he came back to the ship and – having landed safely – would slip back into the normal world and start compulsively shaking with delayed-action fear at the enormity of what he had just done. [
link]
So one could say that while the pilot was in that 'other world of calm', he wasn't feeling fear, yet he was being driven by affect - in particular, he had created an altered state of consciousness out of that fear.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]If a person sees a tiger and runs to safety, without feeling the slightest bit of fear or adrenal response is s/he being driven by affect?
Again, maybe, but not necessarily. It could just be an actually free person, or somebody not easily frightened where the tiger doesn't trigger any fear, rationally deciding to run to safety.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]If a person ruminating on his wife's death, feels weird energetic stuff without the slightest bit of emotional response in his body is he being driven by affect?
Maybe, but not necessarily.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
The knowledge that the affective faculty is gone, i.e. that one is actually free, is experiential. So I would say knowing the energy was calorific is experiential in that same vein. Consider that he was a 'normal' person, and then an 'enlightened' person, wherein he had lots and lots of experiences of affective and psychic phenomenon. So his experiential report is of a non-affective and non-psychic phenomenon occurring. You are saying, what if he is wrong? Then he wouldn't be actually free, and actually there would be no such thing as actual freedom (or there would be, but he wouldn't be actually free, but somehow while being deluded that he was actually free he was able to help others become legitimately actually free).
Various realizations or attainments can shift they nature of experience. So energetic stuff he experience as a normal person wouldn't feel the same to him as an enlightened person. And if Richard as an AF person could feel energetic stuff, it reasons that it would have a different quality to it.
Sure. But would it be the same energetic stuff experienced differently? Or something fundamentally different with perhaps certain similarities? Hard to say from where we're sitting, except that if the energetic stuff was affective in nature it would mean everything Richard has written about is a gigantic delusion, which doesn't quite fit together from my experience of the actual world, and my experience interacting with him.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Than it needs to be if what? What would a less convoluted interpretation of these events be? It seems to me he is mostly just describing the sequence of events:
1) He found himself impressing the importance of out-from-control to Vineeto.
2) His associates noticed they no longer experienced a block barring their access to actuality.
3) He later found out that Devika/Irene had died shortly before these things were noticed.
4) While alone he contemplated the significance of her death.
5) He experienced a new phenomenon, one he would never have thought could happen before from my conversations with him, described as a surge of energy.
6) This phenomenon somehow helped facilitate others becoming actually free.
etc. So what is convoluted about that? Most of it is just a report of what happened.
This is easily explained by the following
1) same mechanism that causes us to see shapes in the clouds.
2) A belief that no affectively related phenomenon could possibly result in some sort of bodily sensations for the AF founder.
3) First virtual conivivum meeting taking place.
So you are saying it was a coincidence that certain things started happening shortly after Devika/Irene died but before anybody found out about it? That might very well be the case. As to #2, not sure what you're getting at.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]Based on what I read toady, Richard had some energetic stuff arise as he contemplates his wife's death.
Rather than considering that the energetic phenomenon may have something do with his ruminations on her death.
Where does he say he doesn't consider it had something to do with his ruminations on her death? He exactly does consider it had something to do with her death.
He considers that it had to do with her physical death removing the psychic force field set up by her (on others).
I think it may have had to do with the brain-body interaction of his
ruminations on her death. i.e. not something special compared to other phenomenon.
Well in any case I would call it "special" in that it was different enough from what was experienced before to warrant Richard to write about and describe it. Nothing like it features in what he's written before. As to it happening just because he was thinking about his ex-wife's death, maybe. Then it would just be a coincidence that it was also the convivum gathering and that it helped other people become actually free? Very possible. I asked him in person how the thing gets started or why it starts or whether he can turn it on, he said he couldn't turn it on and that he had no idea how or why it starts or stops.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]He considers her death has having lifted some sort of psychic blockage from him. That she had set up as a feeling being during her lifetime. And it only gets weirder from there.
No, if you read it all again, the blockage wasn't lifted from him. It was lifted from the human psyche. He never experienced the blockage nor experienced it being lifted. But he noticed something was different about the feeling-beings he was hanging out with. This eventually led to the (calorific) energetic phenomena he described.
Ok. So the idea is that an AF person is not capable of being blocked, due to lack of psyche.
Yes. Basically an actually free person is totally removed from the psychic and emotional realm. While other people have a presence about them, and there are vibes in the air when there's a lot of people together, actually free people emit no such vibes. I had an experience with Richard & Vineeto at the airport, and I could feel out other people as intuitive dots of presence, yet when I tried to feel out Richard & Vineeto, I got nothing - they were like the tables and the chairs. Plus the atmosphere was thick with vibes, yet they completely passed through Richard & Vineeto, neither affecting them nor being affected by them, plus they were totally oblivious to them all. It was quite the interesting experience.
[quote=(D Z) Dhru Val]
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Yes, it is definitely some weird stuff.
It is more the sort of cultish aspect that I am weary of. To be fair I find that in tibetan buddhism as well to some extent.
I hear ya. When those alarm bells start loudly ringing, it's worth taking a look to see why they are. They might be accurate. But also maybe not. In any case, anything that's new and radical is going to set off a lot of alarm bells and ruffle a lot of feathers, that is for sure.