Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Practice Logs

RE: Richard's insight practice

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/11/14 1:41 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
I'm getting much better at catching mind states. When you purposefully quiet your mind (also out of enjoyment) you can compare the thinking patterns that appear and see clearly how they affect you and create moods (sometimes involving music).

By interrupting it faster and faster by letting go faster and faster it's very clear these unhelpful mind states are very conditioned and need to be weakened as much as possible and replaced with healthy ones.

By relishing a quiet mind (which may be an attachment, who cares?) there's a natural pull to just enjoy ambient sensation and no more.

Richard, you're right AT the THRESHOLD! Just another step or two, and you will cross it.

BTW, relishing a quiet mind is not an attachment. By relishing a quiet mind, you are able to become aware of what you're thinking (i.e. to hear yourself think!). Ergo, to see the often hidden-from-sight processes of mind. This is a positive thing (accomplishment)!

Consider the following with regard to the ideas of attachment with a quiet mind: there are quite a few suttas in which Gotama is depicted as walking away from an assembly of people who would be arguing (either with one another or with himself) or who would be talking aimlessly with pointless talk. When his point to them was not heard or recognized, he was not above simply walking away, back into the solitude of his own world where things made sense once again. He often sought seclusion from the destructive or mindless thoughts of others. It simply made no sense to him to subject himself to such useless atmospheres.

Once you begin actively seeking quietude and seclusion in everything you do (especially during those times when you are in the midst of outer turmoil being caused by others), you will know nibbana by directly experiencing it. A quiet mind knows what is true and real and does not argue with itself. It is at one with itself. Perhaps that's what the meaning of the word atonement is: at-one-ment.

It's kind of like the poem If by Rudyard Kipling, the first verse of which goes:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs
and blaming it on you; . . . (concentration with equanimity!)
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too; . . . (insight and wisdom!)
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, . . . (equanimity!)
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, . . . (equanimity!)
Or being hated, don't give way to hating, . . . (more equanimity!)
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise; . . . (humility!)

And other salient lines from the poem:

If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim; . . . (insight and wisdom!)
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same; . . . (equanimity!)

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves
to make a trap for fools, . . . (more equanimity!)
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools; . . . (equanimity and humility!)

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone, . . . (concentration!)
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on"; . . . (more concentration and not giving in!)

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, . . . (nobility is sublime!)

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; . . . (more equanimity!)

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/11/14 6:48 PM as a reply to Ian And.
Thanks! That's very clear. As the mental habits get weaker they can be abandoned much faster and I do find that poem very apt for the kinds of "slings and arrows" I have to go through with liars and manipulators. It's easy to abandon yourself when you become a target by another group of individuals.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/17/14 10:28 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I did a 1 hour sitting last night and I just focused on the mind-stream and repeatedly interrupted the habitual thoughts. I now see how pervasive these habits are and how much work there still is to be done. This reminds me of how daunted I was when I first enjoyed the jhanas but found insight and noting really difficult. Now that equanimity is more effortless the weeding of the mental garden looks like a brand new project and a brand new destination. It requires more care and consistency because any perception or evaluation of the practice is just more of the same mental landscapes that cause affect that lead you down similar paths.

The mind gets crystal clear when you interrupt old conditioning repeatedly but the habits are so strong that it requires constant deconditioning. Each time the habitual thought appears and is interrupted it returns almost like water cascading down irrigation. It's like a Trojan horse that penetrated your head years ago and was running the town all this time but Priam still thinks he's in control. The challenge is to change the irrigation so that the thought habits go in the healthy direction. The sense of delusion is really clear and it's also unsettling because of how quickly it comes back. It's like the conditioning is waiting for me to stop interrupting so it can continue on it's merry way. I guess you can call that System 1 of Daniel Kahnenman's Thinking Fast and Slow vs. System 2. System 2 needs a nudge to work but System 1 is automatic so what you program into that is paramount.

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.

We are adapted by nature to receive and are made perfect by habit.

Aristotle


The mnemonic for CBT is helpful and just bring it up can point you in the right direction. I will now create some more mnemonics for basic duties and possibly include many, many more for things that are reminders to aim at purposeful actions. Each time it's recalled it gets etched in the brain more permanently.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/21/14 7:35 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I tried to go "perceptionless"/"evaluationless" throughout the day and interrupting old mental habits. Obviously one can't do this while driving but it's more like letting go of perception and clinging faster and then using perception in a more skillful way. It seems to push up all kinds of mental crap that you normally deal with and shows the remaining mental stress conditioning that is yet to be dealt with. It feels like an answer to the subtlety that one searches for in vain in chasing experience.

It is similar to how Rob Burbea looks at those who've achieved stream-entry and view all experiences as impressions in awareness. Instead of pushing things aside it's more like being prepared for when perception starts objectifying and reacting to the likeability or dislikeability of those objects. Perception is like pincers in your brain constantly readying for an object to react to. The pincers act but their "stickiness" is less because you are recoiling from the useless object. It's like a suction-cup that doesn't quite latch on.

Doing this one feels even more normal than before like one has never meditated yet there is less stress because there's sidestepping of the old mental habits.

This practice makes it more subtle than before and eliminates some of the striving that comes from meditation (though albeit not much striving like I had when I first started). After I completely let go I sometimes go into my CBT mnemonic to create a new positive attitude which is perfectly okay to cultivate.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/23/14 9:24 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
1 hour meditation: Just letting go of perception seems to spark habitual thoughts to arise so I think this may be a good sign, though it's unpleasant how slippery the mind gets in equanimity. I can kind of see what Rob Burbea means in that weakening perception will weaken consciousness but I'm still a long way from getting to that point and will probably need a lot more hours to do this. I'm still at times talking to myself out loud about some of the habitual mental rehearsing/arguments with people that will probably never happen. I think this is just a residue of the last dark night where mental speech and verbal speech re-synced in a different way. I'll be interrupting that more often because it's one thing to do that when you are alone but I don't want to appear like a mental person if this happens in public. LOL! emoticon

I developed a body mnemonic where each body part represents a daily and weekly task I need to complete. This has been helpful coupled with the CBT mnemonic to reinforce the motivation and to downplay the aversion to get things done. For example I can visualize my forearm splashed with toothpaste and that detailed image can help me to remember to brush my teeth when cycling through this mind-palace. A good chunk of the "Incompletion Trigger List" is in my mind so that if I miss something those basic things will be done at a minimum. I've included enjoyment and recreation to the mnemonic so it won't be too austere. Another benefit is that when you use these mind-palaces over and over again things can become automatic and cycling through the mind-palace will be less needed.

Mnemonics FAQ

This will be a good test of how much free time I actually have when things are getting complete as idle time disappears. It'll test actual fatigue versus simply aversion. I haven't used my toes yet so I can still add more tasks. This practice seems to be opposite of what David Allen (GTD) would recommend (which is to get everything out of your mind) but I think with my personality type if it's not in my mind it probably won't be done.

Letting go of perception is now being a nice part of this strategy to give quick relief if there's any doubt or confusion.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/27/14 9:08 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Aversion now just feels like a tension in the skull with a little in the chest but it's impermanent. I can wait and then the usefulness of bringing up the benefits of the right action seems to replace the pain with motivation. Just asking in my mind "where are you aversion?" gets me to stop the old train of thought. The aversion really does pretend to be tiredness but when it's influence dissipates and is replaced with motivation the energy comes back. Very strange but it's fun to manipulate, and matches quite well with what Daniel Kahneman's work on attention and effort is.

F*&k it! If advertisers are so good at manipulating our desires and creating desires we should take charge and create our own desires.

Mnemonics acts as a feedback loop like noting and it gives you that reminder you need to keep going and why you want to keep going. I've been enjoying the benefits of having lunch ready before I leave for work, clean dishes, and laundry when I need it. This may seem obvious but when you have poor habits it can be a revelation. All I'm using from the Willpower guide is feedback loops/developing motivation/disenchantment.

The biggest drain of time and the biggest lure and pull is anything with a screen. I'm sure I'm not the only one. emoticon

When the aversion starts, the feedback loop to remember why I should do what I should do forces the brain to ask "can I be motivated for this?" It's equivalent to having a coach following you except you are your own coach and he/she is always there when you slip up.

This has sparked some inspiration to create a mnemonic for work. I know I still don't follow that "Meet your happy chemicals book" as well as I should so it's time to include reminders that I can bring up at work on how to deal with people. At work it's crystal clear that serotonin is the way that people are motivated. Any little joke or remark will make people lose their serotonin and start thinking negatively about you. If you don't mirror their pain (related to nonsense complaints and fake problems) it will bother them.

My pet peeve of envy is another nut I haven't been able to crack because when you are in close quarters with people, any improvement on your part is instantly noticed by someone and it spreads like a network of Stasi informers. Just BRUTAL! Even cleaning my desk up before other people for an office move was enough to cause envious comments from people. People are hyper accurate and even to the point of paranoia over pecking-order and the most petty differences are evaluated. Many of the managers seem to use cronyism and nepotism to insulate them from this envy. It's like a wolf-pack and you have to be part of the dominant group to survive.

Having this accurate awareness of the craving of serotonin has given me more understanding of my own feelings. One manager made it pretty clear she knows how ostracism works with people even if she doesn't know exactly how. I've been going through some of that ostracism and now I can see it's a need on my part to belong. It's like starving people of oxytocin and serotonin. You can feel it in your body but once you know the game you can let it go because the self-referential thoughts and beliefs are the real problem. It's very easy to get bitter and angry with "the system" but ultimately it's my fault if I let it get to me. As long as there's people watching you there will always be a "the system" to complain about. LOL!

Csikszentmihalyi was right in that people need to find more independent sources of happiness.

“To overcome the anxieties and depressions of contemporary life, individuals must become independent of the social environment to the degree that they no longer respond exclusively in terms of its rewards and punishments. To achieve such autonomy, a person has to learn to provide rewards to herself. She has to develop the ability to find enjoyment and purpose regardless of external circumstances.”


So what I need to remember at work:

Create my own rewards. (Carrot)
Develop skills that make me more autonomous (skill)
Test perceptions with reality to reduce disappointment (disappointed)
Build pride in something once a day (pride)
If I'm not the top dog I should enjoy the fact that I have less responsibilities and pressures those people have (dog)
Imagine yourself in someone else's shoes (shoes)
Build trust with people in small stages (trust)
Match work with skill-level and increase skill-level before taking on more work (match)
Create legacies even if small (small)
Take satisfaction in small influences I have (satisfaction)
Share pain with others (pain)


Bugs Bunny chases the Carrot with Skill but is Disappointed when a Prideful Dog with nice Shoes, who Bugs doesn't Trust, lights a Match for a Small bomb of revenge for the Pain Bugs caused.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/27/14 9:54 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:

(...) I know I still don't follow that "Meet your happy chemicals book" as well as I should so it's time to include reminders that I can bring up at work on how to deal with people. At work it's crystal clear that serotonin is the way that people are motivated. Any little joke or remark will make people lose their serotonin and start thinking negatively about you. If you don't mirror their pain (related to nonsense complaints and fake problems) it will bother them.

My pet peeve of envy is another nut I haven't been able to crack because when you are in close quarters with people, any improvement on your part is instantly noticed by someone and it spreads like a network of Stasi informers. Just BRUTAL! Even cleaning my desk up before other people for an office move was enough to cause envious comments from people. People are hyper accurate and even to the point of paranoia over pecking-order and the most petty differences are evaluated. Many of the managers seem to use cronyism and nepotism to insulate them from this envy. It's like a wolf-pack and you have to be part of the dominant group to survive.

Having this accurate awareness of the craving of serotonin has given me more understanding of my own feelings. One manager made it pretty clear she knows how ostracism works with people even if she doesn't know exactly how. I've been going through some of that ostracism and now I can see it's a need on my part to belong. It's like starving people of oxytocin and serotonin. You can feel it in your body but once you know the game you can let it go because the self-referential thoughts and beliefs are the real problem. It's very easy to get bitter and angry with "the system" but ultimately it's my fault if I let it get to me. As long as there's people watching you there will always be a "the system" to complain about. LOL!


Interesting stuff, isn't it? When you see this happening in yourself -- see it clearly and blamelessly instead of just semi-consciously trying to get the best outcome for yourself, or being pissed off about other people doing it while denying that you're essentially the same in this regard -- it gets really interesting, and pretty funny. (The phenomenon itself, that is; the consequences often aren't funny at all).

It makes it easy to see why human societies are so unstable, and why strife and violence can break out so easily, and how networks of alliances can spread the ripples far and wide. (And in the most extreme case, when there's nothing to contain it... a network of alliances can pull literally millions of sane people into a meaningless meat grinder, as in WWI).

Richard Zen:

Csikszentmihalyi was right in that people need to find more independent sources of happiness.

“To overcome the anxieties and depressions of contemporary life, individuals must become independent of the social environment to the degree that they no longer respond exclusively in terms of its rewards and punishments. To achieve such autonomy, a person has to learn to provide rewards to herself. She has to develop the ability to find enjoyment and purpose regardless of external circumstances.”


Like. Especially if that independent/ autonomous source of happiness is mutually beneficial.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
2/27/14 10:11 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
Like. Especially if that independent/ autonomous source of happiness is mutually beneficial.


It's easier said than done but it's a good goal. If you can start your own business or be so valuable in a business that you are almost a consultant then it's possible. Other people just save money like crazy and retire as soon as possible. Some become monks and nuns or live like that and spend so little money that they don't need as much of it. There are many choices but I think step one is just to have personal goals that have nothing to do with work. If a hard working parent believes that the goal of seeing their child in a recital is just as important as work, then there's a better chance at a life balance.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/2/14 1:08 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I've been doing some meditation for a few hours this weekend. While taking a shower I started getting a sense of being in the body much more completely while still being quite normal. The need to loop into an analyzer and strategizer in the mind has weakened even further. Before it was like the thought loop needed to happen before being with the senses and now it's more I don't need to do anything. It feels so great to cry at a movie and feel full emotions without pain. Love and massive empathy is starting to really come out in a mushy but accepting way. Though I've always had empathy it's now more a beautiful thing I enjoy as opposed to something I want to repress because I don't give two fucks what an "alpha male" is supposed to be, which more and more looks like National Geographic animals ripping each other's flesh and quite possibly deranged and hypocritical. I love my emotions.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/14/14 7:37 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
The subtlety of no-self is strange in that the mind wants to find something significant but it finds normality instead.

The self right now just feels like thinking that's deep enough to mask your senses in the present moment. This can't be avoided because deep thinking will happen. It's how you react when that type of thinking relaxes. When there's reactivity it's just what happened. By viewing reactivity as happenings (which they are) it makes everything look like cause and effect.

Looking at thinking this way creates some freedom in not having to react to the reactivity.

This can cause a strange result in that when looking at people they also just look like cause and effect which has a mechanical feel to it not unlike androids. Reflecting about this is just more reflecting.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/16/14 6:07 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm really benefiting from Analayo's new book. It's interesting in that by improving the context of practical meditation I could benefit from the teachings I've already read. Reading something ancient without context and guidance can be like spinning wheels. Today I've been just following the breath and checking the mind-states. It's like balancing a boat to prevent too much energy or too little energy.

Energy and mental habits are now coming together in that stressful thoughts will lead to sluggish mind-states. Seeing cortisol in real-time messing up my mind-states is a big red flag on how stress does not make us more functional. Letting go of hindrances and increasing investigation improves energy and when there's too much energy the concentration practice calms me down.

I'm also getting a tantalizing preview of a world where I can be mindful and think deeply at the same time. I'll need to develop this further with consistent effort to see if this is really possible. My chest is feeling a little too much excitement and anticipation but that's probably normal.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/20/14 1:38 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
The recent added consistency has improved things and allowed my anger to come under control more. There's still work to be done. Just seeing the thinking without a movement to "see" or "notice" the thinking with force makes what feels like a self appear more like just stuff happening. Very subtle.

Sometimes when a executive function thought appears there's a flash of a face like it's a "me" or something familiar but it's just more sensations. All that's left is all there was but without a self.

On the self improvement front I'm finding it easier to just simplify things by quieting the mind as much as possible and getting on with things. This frees things up further and when there's too much analysis just emptying things and just "getting on with it" is a relief. It's counter-intuitive to my typical INFP mode of behaviour but as I've read in another psychology book, feeling types have trouble moving beyond reflection into action. This analysis is so accurate, (and scary), that only action can solve it. Repetitive reconditioning.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/23/14 11:05 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
While balancing energy with the 7 factors of awakening I'm noticing perceptions more and continuing to relinquish the useless ones. It's starting to become enjoyable to do this as a silent mind has more relief and yes the energy improves with a quiet mind. The habitual perceptions need to weaken. Habitual perceptions also have a feeling tone of boredom, lack of wonder, lack of interest. Those are red-flags to let go of those perceptions.

I still keep coming back to this talk as I understand more and more:

Non-duality and the fading of perception

Letting go of perceptions of Buddhism is also a requirement to have a quiet mind, and so is following what causes unnecessary fear and going towards that while relinquishing those perceptions that are causing the aversion.

Reading books (especially books about self-improvement) is a good way to practice relinquishing bad perceptions. Any skill you want to learn can bring up negative failure schemas and mental scenarios that will lead to anger/revenge/stress. This is a big key for me and will likely be the most important habit to develop which is a quiet mind during stressful situations. Basically bad perceptions limit your life potential because they release cortisol at the wrong time and release happy chemicals at the wrong time.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/25/14 8:04 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Continuing with the 7 factors of awakening and it's obvious that it's about inertia and you have to be on it in the morning and empty the mind of all thoughts (which happily includes the current conditioning) and go about your day. Yesterday was interesting in that it took some time to gain control of the mind. As it gets clearer some outbursts came out in my car driving to work. I started venting about people that did me wrong in the past almost like a Gestalt therapy. It was very angry and loud. When I finished I just shook my head.

I reasserted the 7 factors and gained some control. There was less need to put on some music. I just enjoyed the ambient sights and sounds with a clear mind. When I got to work the control and quietness increased further and everybody at work started looking like animals (which scientifically they are). It's similar to Jill Bolte Taylor's experiences on her TED talk (without the stroke). You can see people lost in their thoughts and looking monkey-like (including myself). I got more work done and felt extremely functional.

What is so uncanny is how things feel when the emotional projections aren't there. Situations feel more like opportunities rather than an affective narrative of your life with a preordained grim destiny. The sense of wonder of existence is amplified. You ask yourself "What I'm I doing here?"

I remembered to view my thinking and I can tell now that thinking and clinging can be separate. It's when the thinking seems to be habitually connected to the addictive chemcials and a loop of separateness appears. When in consistent mindfulness there's plenty of room for deep thinking. I will enjoy practicing this from now on. This is closer to the "thinking without a thinker" ideal. So I would recommend that when people are on the internet or reading something to be completely in the body while doing so. It's possible to be quite functional this way. I still have to experiment with deeper thinking than this. Can I solve more difficult puzzles while still being present?

These are just momentary periods of relief and the practice has to be continually refreshed or it returns to the same old same old.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
3/26/14 7:40 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
As much as the 7 factors of awakening is helping the following post really puts how much farther there still is:

Space between thoughts

The underlying substratum (or gap) that seems to abide apart from thought is actually an illusion created by the supposition that thoughts are relating to each other in time. So thought B is supposing that it follows thought A etc., and then thought B will even suppose it can refer to thought A, but by the time that's occurring it's thought C. None of them ever touch, no two thoughts are ever present together in the immediacy, so a thought isn't referencing anything, but only infers that other thoughts have preceded it, it is an illusion. Even the idea that there is more than one thought. That very idea creates the notion that there is a space between them etc.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
4/3/14 7:34 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
My portable mental seclusion is increasing. It's getting easier with dispassion and disenchantment to have a more quiet mind while still thinking. The struggles I still have are when I quiet the mind with the 7 factors and the mind resists with more mental noise. This is actually a good sign and now I can continue with the cultivation of a quiet mind and continue with the effort to relinquish the mental complaining because it doesn't make things better. Mental complaining doesn't make you more functional.

The mind has a subtle belief that if it's quiet it somehow won't get things done. This is absolutely not the case. A quiet mind can think deeply and taking action will have much more results than just day-dreaming and mentally desiring things. I'm more interested in seeing what happens. The ego has to trust that all there is, is cause and effect. There are applications to day-dreaming when it's aimed at developing motivation but that is targeted and controlled compared to letting the mind free-wheel with every distraction.

I may not have achieved stream-entry but the following shows how being addicted to Buddhist concepts is also another clinging trap:

Gil Fronsdal - Ease and nothing to do

The answer to most questions is to quiet the mind and get on with life. One needs to be at peace while taking action.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
4/5/14 5:57 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
thanks for that talk richard, really nice

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
4/5/14 9:43 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
It's a good reminder that ruminating about Buddhism can create stress the same as any desire.

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
4/5/14 11:04 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
yea, for me it's usually way more lol.

it was also really funny how the talk was like a confessional "guys I hate to break it to you but buddhism is just another attachment"

RE: Richard's insight practice
Answer
4/6/14 12:23 PM as a reply to Adam . ..
LOL! Rob Burbea even laughs and says that there's a place for letting go of ALL clinging. People will probably get farther that way when there's too much analysis.