Zendo Calrissian:
Sounds like you are assigning me a koan, Ian
I think I see what you mean, but actually not at all. I'm just encouraging you to wait until you experience the state before forming any opinions about it.
I really didn't know it was possible until I experienced it. Once I had experienced it (to be clear here, the cessation of perception and feeling), it wasn't a state that I wanted to revisit anytime soon, given that at the time I hadn't yet been able to fully satisfy my aspiration for self realization (enlightenment and the "end of suffering").
Besides, I gave you two gigantic hints that, if you will just rationally think about them, should provide you with the insight you are seeking!
To make this even easier, let me help you with that definition for
nibbana. Nirvana (in the Sanskrit) means to "go out" like a flame; when it loses its fuel, it blows out. Or, as I was first introduced to the significance of the word when I came across it in Alan Watt's book
The Way of Zen, he described it thus (which I find satisfactory and insightful): " has been variously connected with Sanskrit roots which would make it mean the blowing out of a flame, or simply blowing out (ex- or de-spiration), or with the cessation of waves, turnings, or circlings (
vritti) of the mind. . . . If nirvana is related to the cessation (
nir-) of turnings (
vritti), the term is synonymous with the aim of yoga, defined in the Yogasutra as
citta-vritti nirodha – the cessation of turnings of the mind. These turnings are the thoughts whereby the mind endeavors to grasp the world and itself. Yoga [and Zen koan practice] is the practice of trying to stop these thoughts by thinking about them, until the utter futility of the process is
felt so vividly that it simply drops away, and the mind discovers its natural and unconfused state."
See also Thanissaro's enlightened definition for this word in his essay
A Verb for Nirvana.
But failing that, let's go over the questions I asked and see if you agree with the answer I was hoping you would recognize as plainly as the nose on your face.
Is it possible to attain enlightenment about the ending of suffering while
in a state of cessation?
Not likely. Can you see why?Are the three characteristics realized more fully while in this state?
Again, not likely. How about the five aggregates? Not to speak of paticca samuppada or dependent co-arising?
Again, not likely. Do you think one could realize any of these truths while in this state?
Again, not likely. Zendo Calrissian:
The quote I took is from MCTB's description of SE. Despite what you call it, phenomena, state, non-state, non-phenomena, it is out of ordinary perception of reality.
Could you provide the page number and paragraph where this quote can be found (or a link if you read it here on this site) so that I can be assured to be on the same page with you? I ask because that quote does
not sound like stream entry to me!! Therefore, I would like to see it in context in order to verify your characterization of it as such.
Zendo Calrissian:
So if someone hasn't experienced this 'non-event' or anything else out-of-the-ordinary, can they be enlightened?
Or is it possible that this is so subtle that one may not have noticed? Doesn't seem likely given the description...
First question: In my opinion, yes they can. It just enhances the enlightenment, though, if they have experienced it. Once again, just my personal opinion based on the reaction I had to the experience and what I realized afterward.
Second question: Yes, I think you are correct in your supposition. It may very well be so subtle that one may be confused as to whether or not they just experienced it. It takes a high degree of mindfulness (remembering the moments up to the moment just before everything blanked out, then recalling afterwards the fact that there was some time unaccounted for during the meditation) to be able to recall having had the experience once one emerges from it. The mind can become so calmed, the breath so shallow that in the enjoyable experience leading up to becoming enveloped by this state one simply finds it difficult to recall just what occurred. Until one realizes that everything just blanked out.