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RE: Practice log

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
3/25/14 5:04 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Cool, that makes a ton of sense. Personally I've always been a bad 'believer' in life in general-- too skeptical-- except that when i was younger and (even more) hot headed I believed pretty strongly in my skepticism ;) However I've always been a good pragmatist and enjoyed 'make believe' ever since childhood so...

Hey have you ever read James Austin's "Zen and the Brain"? If not I think you might like it. He's a pretty good neuroscientist from what I can tell and has an interesting method in the book. basically he takes some interesting experiences-- both of the concentrative and awakening variety if I recall correctly-- and then does informed speculation about brain mechanisms that could be implicated in the various experiences. Pretty fascinating stuff.

A lot of the newer brain/meditation crossover stuff I am familiar with looks more at neuroplasticity and possible long term results in brain structure and function from regular practice.

For some reason my gmail doesn't work at work anymore as of the past few days so i will get back to you this evening when I return home, thanks for the note emoticon


Yep, I know Zen and the brain (and the other two). There isn't much else like it, which makes me appreciate them, but also find them pretty frustrating, being hard to read and taken anything from, for me. Lots of nuggets, but perhaps he needed a better editor.

The neuroplasticity angle is important and interesting, but not really what excites me, which if I had a put a finger on is to consider what Buddhism (as a set of practices embedded in a religion) might look like if it was invented now.

John Wilde:
sawfoot _:

One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption, well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of "emptiness" or aliveness (or God or whatever), if we strip away what obscures it, is intrinsically good and amazing. That our enlightened state is our natural state. I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness (when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this "naturalness"). And then, so what? We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self-referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters. I don't think it tells that the "universe is love" and so on. But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life, a means to an end.


That there's something intrinsically good and amazing underneath all the suffering and strife that exists in minds and hearts is something that makes complete sense to me. I know it. It was the initial inspiration for all this .... and it's the reason why true cynicism will never be an option here.

And although I get your point about the paradox of calling something a "natural state" when nobody's in it and people work years to attain it, it still seems spot on to me.... because it's what's left when all the crap is gone, and it's clear that the crap is not intrinsic.

What exactly this is, in anyone's language, or in any tradition, I've given up caring. There are aspects of so many teachings that point in that general direction but also veer off into stuff that doesn't fit my experiences or aims at all, and the same goes for actual freedom. So be it. Nowadays, I'm looking at practice not as a means to a specific end but as a way of making all the
crap increasingly transparent.


Probably this is what religious faith really comes down to. Just faith in this, And probably a key "issue" for me, is my lack of faith in it. My skeptical angle on it is that being awareness is just pretty awesome, though I can't really go as far as saying anything is intrinsically anything. Not a very grand vision though, I admit, but intuitively I am being pulled in this direction (I guess you could call this "awakening").

If you take the naturalist perspective (which I do!) then I think you do get an answer to what "exactly this is". It might not satisfy everyone as an explanation, but the direction it leads you to is inexorable - the experience of being a brain that evolved in a meaningless universe. This makes this all both utterly mysterious yet at the same time unmysterious. Still doesn't really solve any problems about being alive though.

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
3/27/14 6:04 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
sawfoot _:

And emotionally, emotions can contain contradictory elements each other, e.g. awe, or the same emotion (in its physical manifestation) can be interpreted in different ways, with different results.


Have you ever closely contemplated the difference between afflictive emotions and transcendent ones?

Some emotions just hurt. Feelings of anger, hurt arising from rejection, grief, etc... they just hurt. But feelings like love, beauty, compassion and bitter-sweet melancholy feelings.... they hurt too... but they don't, at the same time. They hurt, but they're not afflictive emotions; they're transcendent ones.

Some people don't get this; I can only assume they don't have these feelings. But if you do, it can be really interesting to contemplate what exactly is that afflictive element.... in and of itself...

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
3/29/14 5:42 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
John Wilde:
sawfoot _:

And emotionally, emotions can contain contradictory elements each other, e.g. awe, or the same emotion (in its physical manifestation) can be interpreted in different ways, with different results.


Have you ever closely contemplated the difference between afflictive emotions and transcendent ones?

Some emotions just hurt. Feelings of anger, hurt arising from rejection, grief, etc... they just hurt. But feelings like love, beauty, compassion and bitter-sweet melancholy feelings.... they hurt too... but they don't, at the same time. They hurt, but they're not afflictive emotions; they're transcendent ones.

Some people don't get this; I can only assume they don't have these feelings. But if you do, it can be really interesting to contemplate what exactly is that afflictive element.... in and of itself...


No, not closely, or recently. Just speculating based on memory, it feels like the non-transcendental ones involve a retraction of the self from the world, whereas the transcendent ones involve a movement outward to the world, but then a flip-flopping where the self and world meet. But that doesn't say anything about raw feel. I will try having a look out for this. Difficult, actually, because my emotional life is often one where such emotions get shunted from view, and its almost like I don't have enough raw materials to work from. I know in some Tibetan practices they deliberately induce negative emotions in controlled settings as a way to work with them.

Throwing out the maps
Answer
3/29/14 6:05 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
"thoughts for the day"

I am increasingly coming round to the view that I should throw the pragmatic dharma maps out the window, for two main reasons. One is that I always have been sceptical about them, and that manifest in resistance rather than acceptance, which probably does more harm than good. I lack experience to be much of an expert, but I have plenty of experiences which have fitted the maps. Yet much of these I could probably explain away confirmation bias and other cognitive distortions. Overall, I think the maps are capturing something useful and potentially important, yet I see a tendency in pragmatic dharma circles to look for explanations where the maps are no longer just descriptions but linked to causal explanations. So for just one example, the idea that you reach a "cutting edge" in meditation for a stage of insight which then permeates your life outside meditation. For a lot of phenomena I have been mystified on what kind of explanation could account for such experiences (e.g. stream entry and resulting shifts). And a lot of that confusion would be allayed if reasserted my primary scepticism, i.e. if it sounds like its nonsensical, it probably is, roughly speaking, approximately nonsense (with some interesting nugget of truth).

The other reason why I get bothered by the stages of insight, in particular the big "E", is the promise of the right condition for happiness without conditions. Conditionality of happiness is deeply entrenched culturally. If only I got a girlfriend, that job, that promotion, the retirement, then, finally, I would be happy. And the pragmatic dharma positioning of "E" can turn out to be a particularly insidious manifestation of that (IMHO). And despite being aware of this, I have still found myself getting sucked up into the snare, and that bothers me in the same way that knowing that a better job etc.. isn't going to deliver my happiness, and yet I can't help shake my conditioning that it will.

Anyhows, I should stop worrying about it. The point is that I should look for motivation not in promise of future reward but from recognition that increasing awareness of "non-duality" has a positive impact on my life.

RE: Practice log
Answer
3/29/14 6:27 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
In the last week, 30-40 minute daily sits, trying some more formless sitting. I was getting the feeling with more formless sitting of how easy is it get into a reasonably calm and relaxed state, where it feels like you are "meditating", but layers of undercurrent of thinking and stances which means you aren't really getting anywhere.

Today sat with local soto zen group.
- First sit 30 mins getting struck with instructions and trying to do too many things at once
- Second and third sits of 20 minutes each. Decided to try and stick with proper soto zen instructions, and sat with eyes open and with focus on not getting involved in thoughts and to just sit (and return) to "embodied presence" - sitting, feeling the body, hearing my breathing, the birds, my awareness of the room and others. And for each sit, alternated between this presence and getting lost in thought and losing my awareness of presence, and returning to the presence, again and again. Reminded myself that this is what zazen is all about - just presence, and returning to presence. Falling down, and getting back up again.
- As I become mindful of when I had got lost, I started remembering that sensation of losing, or softening. When I have got good at concentration in the past it feels like I have been able to really hit this spot, the transition where I lose it. And I remembering talking about this before on another thread somewhere (couldn’t find it). But from what I can recall, we talked about how the transition was preceded by a moment of tension. And what I have found before is that there is a way of riding that tension and following it through to a release which can leads to something like mini-bliss. So I reminding myself to keep on the look out for this transition - e.g. setting up the mindfulness guardian.

Couldn't find thread, but found some old notes about this:

"but at times where I got into jhana land what happened is that the transition from the end of the out breath to the in breath. When I try to catch those moments where I tend break into proliferation thought I feel a slipping away, a tension (lightly felt) and a drifting away - whereas that drifting away would normally slip into a new thought, if I catch the moment when that happens and float along with/into it then I then seem to slip into a fast track to access concentration/jhana. This I also associate with a release of tension in the eyes, a small feeling of relaxation or mini-bliss (at times), which when I analysed before seems to be due to eye blink muscle response (with eyelids shut)."

"- tried to find point where I got distracted. detected something of a movement. based on something I read on the DhO tried to shift my attention to the tension that preceded the movement, which had limited success with.
- also suggestion on DhO that proliferation was preceded by a movement in the belly, with a downward movement with slothfullness and upwards movement with agitation proliferations. Instead or succumbing to the release of the tension, try to stay with it. "

EDIT:

It was bugging me not be able to find it, so I found it:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5006564

Adam . .:
So funnily enough I was meditating earlier and I was trying to catch how distractions arose, and I what I perceived to be happening on several occasions was a gap where awareness faded, then there was this moment of decision, where the mind "decided" to move in a certain direction (which I supposed was an instance of grasping), so an instance of a fabrication of experience in a certain way, an imposition or ordering towards something.

Now Jake talks about seeing such things in real time, which I thought was the point (i.e. of vipassana) but you talk about locking down, tightening and shutting down such processes - I thought just seeing was enough? And I don't quite understand what you mean by such terms as "tightening".


I have been investigating similar phenomena, what I have found is that there is a moment of tension, felt as bodily affect, which can be described as an "upward movement" in the gut just before restless proliferation or "downward movement" in the gut just before sleepy proliferation. The movement grows in intensity and is relaxed when you enter into proliferation, and by tolerating/not being overwhelmed by the intensifying movement, and just being dispassionately aware of it, you can avoid entering into proliferation.

I would say that it is important not only to know about this, but to try and isolate it more and more via not accepting its invitation to enter into proliferation. What starts to happen is that the affective trigger for proliferation stabilizes due to repeated instances of not accepting its invitation, and then one can incline one's mind such that it relaxes entirely and suddenly it takes no effort to "stay present." The way I have found to relax it is to pay attention to the aspect of it that is already fading and also to shift attention down below the navel to the spot where it seems to fade into. When that trigger for proliferation fades then there is the experience of body moving on its own, if you look at your hands they don't seem to be "yours," there is just "in reference to the seen there is only the seen" with no sense of "I am".

Just seeing this and not trying to isolate and relax may be enough for certain attainments but in my view being a slave to this process is inherently dissatisfactory no matter how you observe it, as this is the process of becoming. No matter how clearly you can see it it still has an influence on your behavior. It seems to me that every time this process occurs while I am interacting with someone, they subconsciously sense it and it creates a subtle "power dynamic" between me and them. Also it is obnoxious to be constantly pulled into proliferation.

RE: Throwing out the maps
Answer
3/31/14 2:34 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
There is some kind of weird forum voodoo going on.

I checked the other day and read John's post in reply to this thread, and yet when I go back now it has vanished, though it says on the main page that the last poster was John.

I sort of remember what it said. You talked about your version of the 4 noble truths. I prefer the translation as "4 truths for noble ones" that David Brazier uses. But yeah, put like that, it all seems pretty...simple. and pretty, mundane, really. But no great newsflash, but I becoming solidified in my view that spirituality, like religion, is a bit of con. I think it "works", but these days the myths of eternal salvation, discovering the "Ulimate Truths" or an end to endless rebirths don't really cut it. And it comes down to that choice to be happy. Sometimes, when I have moments of clarity or "happiness", I think, actually, this is quite easy and straightforward - why don't I do this all the time? But then I forget. And so a religious/spiritual practice is really a way of remembering - remembering there is a choice, a choice in the present for present conditions and a choice in the present for future conditions.

RE: Throwing out the maps
Answer
3/31/14 5:03 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
sawfoot _:
There is some kind of weird forum voodoo going on.

I checked the other day and read John's post in reply to this thread, and yet when I go back now it has vanished, though it says on the main page that the last poster was John.

I sort of remember what it said. You talked about your version of the 4 noble truths. I prefer the translation as "4 truths for noble ones" that David Brazier uses. But yeah, put like that, it all seems pretty...simple. and pretty, mundane, really. But no great newsflash, but I becoming solidified in my view that spirituality, like religion, is a bit of con. I think it "works", but these days the myths of eternal salvation, discovering the "Ulimate Truths" or an end to endless rebirths don't really cut it. And it comes down to that choice to be happy. Sometimes, when I have moments of clarity or "happiness", I think, actually, this is quite easy and straightforward - why don't I do this all the time? But then I forget. And so a religious/spiritual practice is really a way of remembering - remembering there is a choice, a choice in the present for present conditions and a choice in the present for future conditions.


Sorry, not forum voodoo, just me. I posted a message (reproduced below from email archive), and a short while later decided to delete it because I thought it might come across as frivolous or insulting -- which wasn't the intent, but could be the effect for someone who doesn't know me well.

There is one element of forum voodoo in that, even when you delete a recent post, you're still listed as the most recent poster in the thread until someone else contributes.

Anyway, here it is again, for referential integrity, so to speak:

*************************

sawfoot _:

The other reason why I get bothered by the stages of insight, in particular the big "E", is the promise of the right condition for happiness without conditions. Conditionality of happiness is deeply entrenched culturally. If only I got a girlfriend, that job, that promotion, the retirement, then, finally, I would be happy. And the pragmatic dharma positioning of "E" can turn out to be a particularly insidious manifestation of that (IMHO). And despite being aware of this, I have still found myself getting sucked up into the snare, and that bothers me in the same way that knowing that a better job etc.. isn't going to deliver my happiness, and yet I can't help shake my conditioning that it will.


It's not an easy one to shake, cos it might not be just conditioning. The fantasy of a radical life-redeeming transformation somewhere in the future can be a neurotic's refuge -- a "fictional final goal" in Adler's terms -- and it has a very powerful and enduring appeal.

sawfoot _:

Anyhows, I should stop worrying about it.


You sure? ;-)

sawfoot _:

The point is that I should look for motivation not in promise of future reward but from recognition that increasing awareness of "non-duality" has a positive impact on my life.


Speaking of which, I like the possibility of taking a really pragmatic approach to "right view", i.e., approaching all aspects of practice in terms of the four noble truths -- which aren't really true, and therefore need to be customised.

Take your pick. Mine's as follows:

1) By default, there is psychological and emotional affliction.
2) There are ways of being and behaving that perpetuate and exacerbate these afflictions.
3) They can come to an end -- preferably without having to do away with "birth", "aging", "death" and the whole universe.
4) There are ways of being and behaving that don't perpetuate or exacerbate affliction. Choose them.

RE: Throwing out the maps
Answer
3/31/14 5:16 PM as a reply to John Wilde.
oh, right, I thought that might be the explanation...though I didn't recall anything contentious!

Yes, "The Problem"...

"It is the task of the therapist to show the patient other ways than that of his psychological dead end, and to show him that, even if he would reach his goal, at that moment he would see that it is a miscalculated goal." (From a translation of "The Dream as the Key of Character" (Der Traum als Schlüssel des Characters), a lecture by Dr. Franz Plewa, presented February 27th 1939.)

Barry Magid has a nice discussion of a version of this, which he calls our "secret practice", in "Ending the Pursuit of Happiness". A pretty good book title I think.

RE: Practice log
Answer
4/1/14 3:49 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
Based on this thread I am reminded that the body is important in "Psycho-energetic Enlightenment"
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5201846

So I am going to try doing some bodywork as part of integrated meditation practice

Yesterday, did some breathing/chest opening Lowen type exercises, and couldn't do for long. Felt like a shock to the system, and brought some negative emotional states, and had to engage parasympathetic nervous system to calm down. Brought back a lot of memories of A&P, but not in a good way.

- did a bit of "charging" and "grounding" before sit (these are Lowian terms). Have the theory that "unblocking" bodywork should encourage "energy" which should make jhana states more accessible. So for example, my A&P involved a radical amount of unblocking in short space of time, which was very destablishing, but it was associated with increased jhana ability ("flowing energy")
- 20 minutes today, again didn't go in with clear intentions and therefore had a muddled practice. Most consistent was the intention to experience (or non-verbally note) bodily sensations and figure which parts of the body were present and which were absent. Noticed a lack of feeling around shoulders, neck and jaw.

RE: Practice log
Answer
4/2/14 4:23 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
- morning sit 0 minutes. Went on dharmaoverground and replied to several posts
- had insight that I should probably stop spending so much time on dharmaoverground

repeat after me:

GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE
GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE
GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE

RE: Practice log
Answer
4/2/14 7:06 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
sawfoot _:
- morning sit 0 minutes. Went on dharmaoverground and replied to several posts
- had insight that I should probably stop spending so much time on dharmaoverground

repeat after me:

GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE
GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE
GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE


LOL! Right there with you man. A good chunk of my free time is spent by lurking around this board and some other dharma websites and just filling my brain with mostly useless information. Then I wonder why I haven't made substantial progress with meditation emoticon

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
6/11/14 4:18 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
So hows practice going on sawfoot?
i was really looking forward to this journal. Gave up?

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
6/11/14 6:48 PM as a reply to ftw.
hi wtf,

Gave up practice? Or the journal?

I started working with a teacher from a different tradition to pragmatic dharma, but got thrown off course recently with some life events, but I am trying to get back on track, which I guess is part of the reason I have been posting here recently. 

RE: How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment
Answer
6/12/14 4:06 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
I  really do hope you continue with practice and share whatever you experience with us. 
All the best!