Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Vipassana: Noting/Mahasi Style

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting

Toggle
Hi all. I'm relatively new to the forum. I'm pre-path, and working towards SE.

I have some questions for experienced yogis about the Goenka style body scanning method. All my meditation from 2005 up to now has been in the Goenka tradition. Since I got onto MCTB and the DhO a while ago I've been building up my noting skills. However, I am wondering if there is anything of value to be gained from persisting with the body scanning method. Is it simply an inferior practice when compared to noting? Or, when practiced skilfully, is it possible that it is an equally effective insight tool?

So I'm wondering, are there any post-path yogis out there who used body scanning as the principle technique to achieve stream entry?

Are there any post-path yogis who employ/employed body scanning as a core component of their practice post-path?

Is there anyone out there who thinks that body scanning is a useful tool for a pre-pather working towards stream-entry?

If so, is anyone able to elucidate some of the finer points of body scanning practice from their own experience – for example, instructions that might diverge from or expand upon the standard 10-day Goenka instructions; or provide any tips, pointers, or suggestions that you feel you might have benefited from in pre-path body scanning practice.

Is anyone able to give suggestions as to how body scanning could be taken to the next level, as it were, and practised with a high degree of skill and precision?

Or is it simply the case that body scanning is just lame and cumbersome, and noting is the way to go? ;) Is it best if I just let go of this antiquated method, and focus on noting? ;)

I understand the commonly cited benefits of noting practice – for example by Kenneth Folk - ie “it keeps you honest”, it dis-embeds you from the various strata of the mind, it uses up the processing power of your mind, etc. Personally, I've found it an extremely valuable addition to my practice, and has really kicked things up a gear. I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there with a view on body scanning that might be helpful for someone that's been brought up in the Goenka tradition.

Cheers

Dylan

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
vipassana goenka
Answer
1/19/12 4:13 AM as a reply to Dylan ..
Hi Dylan,

i found the Goenka scanning method and advice from the ten day courses (especially the emphasis on the three characteristics) to be excellent for fast progress both pre and post-stream entry. i would say the problem with the Goenka courses is not the technique or teachings, but the lack of non-scripted personal guidance.

i got stream entry with that technique, on the ninth day of my first Goenka course (which was my first meditation practice of any kind). fortunately, a year prior to that, i had experienced a short glimpse of what i considered to be the ideal condition i wanted to pursue (also called a "pure consciousness experience"), and the memory of it served as my guide throughout that course. that glimpse was not a permanent shift of any kind, and it could happen to anyone. i was still full of inner turmoil, craving & aversion, discomfort, confusion, etc. going into the course, so i don't think it was much of a head start in terms of progress, but invaluable in that it made me know what i was working towards--heightened, undistorted, equanimous awareness and getting rid of all suffering/emotional baggage/problems of self. also, having seen a glimpse of a perfect life made me see my usual "normal" condition as so unacceptable that i would have rather died than continue living that blindly. i practiced very very strictly, mostly because i was afraid of screwing up practice and not getting results, and that 100% effort every single second of the course paid off. basically, if you have a clear idea or at least some idea of what you're trying to develop, then the scanning technique can be a very effective tool.

i suspect that the natural tendency of one's attention might have an effect on whether scanning or noting would be better for a vipassana meditator. i think the Goenka scanning technique was good for me because my attention tended to be on the diffused and panoramic side and would very rarely become unintentionally absorbed and one-pointed. knowing how to keep the attention full and panoramic seems to be important for balanced development, leading into the equanimity ñana, and driving development post-path, but it's not taught as a technique in Goenka's 10-day courses. he only hints at it from time to time by advising yogis to constantly stay aware and live in the present, but he does not mention sights and sounds as practice objects. since my attention was more on the diffused side and hard to make one-pointed, the scanning advice worked out nicely for me because i always had at least some awareness of everything else in the background (sounds, thoughts, intentions, and sights when with eyes open) while scanning body sensations. i rarely got absorbed in the pinprick of a sensation or in altered states or imagination. sometimes there would be more extra attention to spare, and other times less, but it's important that all the attention you've got is applied to stuff arising in the present. for instance, if you're busy scanning but there is some restless energy and attention that's giving fuel to wandering thoughts, then while scanning you could apply that excess attention to sounds.

for someone whose attention tends to get focused in a one-pointed way easily (when attention gathers and stays on one thing and nothing else), especially if this tends to happen unintentionally, then i think it would be better to start off or switch to the Mahasi noting method, because this practice ensures that the attention gets thrown around like a pinball so that everything in the present gets noticed.

if you do the Goenka technique while sincerely and vigilantly doing all you can to figure out how to stay in the present, stay equanimous, and stay observant and objective, giving importance to the three characteristics, then you can make quick progress, but if you just "body scan" all day without a clear objective in mind, then you might achieve just that--the ability to scan the body for an hour at a time, but not much progress. actually if you listen carefully to all the practical advice he gives, which includes the evening discourses, i think the teaching is very complete and should take you straight to the kind of integrated, customized(to suit you), advanced and effective practice in which the techniques of noting and body-scanning join up and become almost the same thing. but because the advice is not personalized, you might not hear what you need to hear most at the right time.

another thing (copied from here):
one drawback of the lack of non-scripted personal guidance at Goenka courses:
the emphasis on perfect equanimity--“every moment aware, every moment equanimous” can really throw meditators off at some points, and this is where knowledge of the insight maps and stages helps. you don't need to figure out what exactly which stage you're at, but it's helpful to realize that there are times in a diligent meditator’s practice when good equanimity is simply impossible. these include certain pre-path stages of insight progress (dark night stages from fear through re-observation), and perhaps other instances not related to stages when intense personal issues are coming up. you’re following directions to the letter, doing all you can, vigilantly staying with sensations and not getting swallowed by content, and still it seems impossible to achieve the objective of “remaining equanimous.” you get frustrated because you’re giving it your very best and are apparently failing. the frustration and thoughts about “i just can’t do this” start disrupting and complicating the practice, possibly making you give up or slack off, when phenomena-wise everything was moving along just fine. what this Goenka student needs to hear is that “every moment trying to be aware, every moment accepting” is good enough practice, because at certain periods maintaining stable equanimity is just not possible, and at the most difficult points the very best you can manage is to squeeze out barely enough tolerance to keep attention sputtering—and that is totally natural and in fact expected in the stages of insight.

do you feel that you've (not) made significant progress since 2005?

jill

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
8/1/11 5:03 AM as a reply to Dylan ..
Dylan .:

Is anyone able to give suggestions as to how body scanning could be taken to the next level, as it were, and practised with a high degree of skill and precision?

like i mentioned above, apply any excess attention to objectively noticing other things arising in the present, so that your attention is totally engaged and not just completing the task.
keep in mind the bigger picture--the point is not to become an expert body-scanner, but you're trying to sharpen your awareness of the present and equanimity towards everything, so while sitting, use this bigger objective to solve obstacles as they come up. both when sitting and daily living, figure out how to stay in the present as much as possible: as constantly, perceptively, equanimously, objectively, continuously and as relaxed as possible.

looks like you're already "taking it to the next level" by starting to post questions/issues/discussions to get feedback from the forum...

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
8/1/11 9:17 AM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
Hey Jill. Thanks for the really engaged response. I've been following your posts over the last few months, and I thought that you might be one of the people to have an insightful view on this topic. From reading your posts I can see that you adopted a real intuitive optimization of the Goenka scanning method...this is an approach that I would definitely like to emulate.


do you feel that you've (not) made significant progress since 2005?


Well...I would call the progress I have made since getting exposed to MCTB and prag dharma significant, at least for me. I hit the A&P in pretty spectacular fashion on day 4 of my first Goenka course, but it took me finding MCTB a few months ago to put that experience into perspective. I've only held up a sporadic practice since 2005. After my first course I sat and served for a bit, but then wandered off and only seriously returned to the practice last year. I've been living at a Goenka centre more or less full-time for about 12 months. I've posted a thread on my recent stream entry “attempt”, which might give an idea of where I'm at. It's slightly embarrassing for me in hindsight, but I learned a lot.

Anyway, I think you've confirmed that I am indeed going in the right direction with my practice. While noting has brought a depth and rigour that wasn't there before (specifically the conscious aim of continuously dis-embedding or dis-identifying with all phenomena that arise in my field of awareness), the reason I posted these questions is because there is something about the body-scanning technique that I feel intrinsically comfortable with, and I guess I was fishing around for confirmation that it's worth pursuing. In fact what really interests me is the marriage of scanning and noting. You said:

i think [Goenka's] teaching is very complete and should take you straight to the kind of integrated, customized (to suit you), advanced and effective practice in which the techniques of noting and body-scanning join up and become almost the same thing.


I found this very interesting. Yes, from my recent experience I have definitely found that noting and body-scanning does join up and become a kind of cohesive, mutually-reinforcing practice. It was exactly this experience that I was hoping to have confirmed. I guess for me I simply find it easier, especially in the early stage of a sit, to focus on scanning, and as I get more focused, more concentrated, to incorporate more noting. I have been experimenting, for example, with trying to do an hour sit of just pure choice-less noting, but I find it much more difficult to get to the same level concentration and awareness as I can when I'm working with scanning.

So yes, your thoughts about differing natural tendencies ring true for me.

In response to my question:

"Is anyone able to give suggestions as to how body scanning could be taken to the next level, as it were, and practised with a high degree of skill and precision?"

you said:

apply any excess attention to objectively noticing other things arising in the present, so that your attention is totally engaged and not just completing the task.


Do you think another way to describe what you're pointing to here would be something like 'noting while having part of the attention anchored on bodily sensations?' If so, then this is pretty much what I'm trying to do.

I guess I'm at a point where I really need to have the confidence to embrace the spirit of free exploration and experimentation with my practice, while grounded in the fundamentals, to find out what combinations of things work best for me. So thanks, you've given me some confidence that I'm on the right track.

In another post I noticed that you said this:

there seems to be something very valuable in the technique of noting body sensations in order--slowly scanning the body in a set sequence instead of jumping to random dominating sensations that happen to grab your attention at each moment...


Are you able to elaborate on this at all? One thing that I think about in my practice is that perhaps I'm not diligent enough about methodically moving through every part of the body. Do you consider that to be important? I have a tendency to give more attention to certain 'trouble areas', like the chest and throat. Any advice on this one?

Once again, thanks for the great response. I love this place.

Cheers,

Dylan

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
8/2/11 2:29 AM as a reply to Dylan ..
Dylan .:
In fact what really interests me is the marriage of scanning and noting. You said:

i think [Goenka's] teaching is very complete and should take you straight to the kind of integrated, customized (to suit you), advanced and effective practice in which the techniques of noting and body-scanning join up and become almost the same thing.

I found this very interesting. Yes, from my recent experience I have definitely found that noting and body-scanning does join up and become a kind of cohesive, mutually-reinforcing practice.

yes, come to think of it, you could totally do both at once. actually it sounds like the ideal full practice of vipassana. i never thought of it that way--as scanning+noting together--because i tend to think of Mahasi practice as requiring verbalizing, but that's more in the beginning, isn't it?

Dylan .:

apply any excess attention to objectively noticing other things arising in the present, so that your attention is totally engaged and not just completing the task.


Do you think another way to describe what you're pointing to here would be something like 'noting while having part of the attention anchored on bodily sensations?' If so, then this is pretty much what I'm trying to do.

yes. or scanning systematically while allowing the rest of the attention you can spare to notice stuff randomly and freely. i used to do a lot of scanning while keeping track of the breath.

Dylan .:
In another post I noticed that you said this:

there seems to be something very valuable in the technique of noting body sensations in order--slowly scanning the body in a set sequence instead of jumping to random dominating sensations that happen to grab your attention at each moment...

Are you able to elaborate on this at all? One thing that I think about in my practice is that perhaps I'm not diligent enough about methodically moving through every part of the body. Do you consider that to be important? I have a tendency to give more attention to certain 'trouble areas', like the chest and throat. Any advice on this one?

the problem i see with not moving attention systematically is that sore spots of blind habit may never be seen. if you let the attention jump around wherever it pleases, of course it will avoid going where it's most uncomfortable. it will skip over the areas, sensations, or circumstances of most emotional pain or conflict or places that take "too much" discipline and stillness to look into. or imagine if we didn't have those one-hour sits--we might end up always getting up after some discomfort after ten minutes, noting boredom and the decision to get up, and noting every inch of movement while getting up, but never really looking into the aversion to de-condition it. this suggests that it's probably better to give too much attention to problem areas than too little...but what if that means ignoring other subtler problem areas that are harder to identify as problems?

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
8/18/11 7:16 AM as a reply to Dylan ..
I've just come across this thread on KFD which addresses some of the questions I was raising above. I can see that for the old heads around here these questions have probably been long resolved. Now you're all off cultivating sensousness and triggering PCE's! ;) It's still interesting for relative newbies like me though.

The take-home message? "Scanning and noting two tools that can be used together or separately". (Kenneth Folk)

The thread points out the danger for Goenka yogis is the common tendency to focus purely on physical sensations to the exclusion of all other phenomena, sometimes to the extent of denying or repressing emotions, which is clearly a hindrance to progress. This misunderstanding of the technique seems to be propagated by insufficient personal guidance and under-qualified instructors. It is indeed a shame, but from my own experience I have seen just how much time and energy goes into perpetuating this very kind of misunderstanding.

The good news? It doesn't have to be that way.

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
5/22/14 12:22 PM as a reply to TJ Broccoli.
Hello,

I am very intrigued by this conversation since I have had similar experiences and questions...

I started out a Goenka "junkie", after sitting my first course in 2011 I sat and served on and off for about 9 months (which I unfortunately spent a great deal of rolling in thought and mind noise), but it wasn't until aftter that that I discovered MCTB and this website which has accelerated and focused my practice; although I am still working towards stream entry at least now I know what that is and have it to work towards!

I just sat a 10 day this month and I found noting to be a nice accessory to body scanning, in a sense that when I found my mind to be wandering I would note, "mind wandering" and it helped to keep me on track. I found that during the "break periods" noting was very helpful to keep my mind focused and present, for example if I was walking I would note walking and also try to feel the sensations in my legs. 

Jill- do you have any tips for staying present for the times not sitting and meditating? Like do you mainly focus on physical sensations while walking, eating etc as Goenka suggests or are you aware of other sensations such as sound as well? Continuity of awareness is something I find very challenging on courses, and I am especially distracted when making decisions like, "should I go for a walk? should I sit in the hall or in my room? should I turn here or here on the walking path?" I know that seems neurotically nitpicky but those type of small decisions happen often and I struggle to stay present during that type of thinking.... any suggestions?

Dylan- Since it has been some time since this post has been edited I would be curious to see how your practice has grown and if you are still practicing body-scanning, noting, or a combo.

Warmly,
Derya

RE: Questions on Goenka-style body scanning vs. noting
Answer
5/22/14 4:33 PM as a reply to Dylan ..
I have asked several Godenka students how they were taught to deal with feeling tones thought and emotions. They said they weren't covered. Disembedding from physical sensations, feeling tones, mental condition/emotions and thoughts are, for me, best accomplished with a noting/noticing practice directly involving all 4 areas.. Does Goenka handle that in advanced courses.