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Stages of non-dual perception

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Stages of non-dual perception
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14-6-7 下午5:31
From my experience there are three distinctive levels of non-duality: non-non-dual, half-non-dual and full-non-dual.

non-non-dual is this flat self obsessed perception in where everything is referencing to everything through mediator in form of self. Its usually some kind of concentrated wanna-be-real-badly bunch of sensations. Sensations in this mode seems dry, flat and bleak in itself and all imply self and they being pleasurable or not depend on usability to self and those that are not get ridiculed and trimmed.

half-non-dual have space which condition how sensation will look/feel when they arise as sort of a template. It can be influenced by will (which is just bunch of strong sensations) and sensations influence it too. Because of that it is important to keep sensation field clean and not allow unskillful sensations which can force other sensations to be like them and... self can happen. There is way more vibrancy of sensations but because of template the kinda feel like another copies of template sensation, not truly unique sensations. Its good enough mode to be in imho when mind is clean and concentrated on doing rightful stuff. Its also fallback mode from which I work up to full-non-dual, its pointless to try to go from non-non-dual to full-non-dual as that cant work.

full-non-dual at some point central space seems to vanish and there is nothing to be template to sensations. Sensations seem to be only for themselves. They can influence itself but not necessarily globally which make landscape of sensations more differentiated and enable to extreme depth of vibrancy, bliss and immersion, etc, depending on what is used to draw on this canvas it can look and feel very differently. Usually it feels like letting go of control of anything and let stuff happen on their own. Its not necessary to even know own personality or wherabouts or anything at all. It can get quite spaced out but not necessarily. Its crazy pleasurable with no effort at all.

Going from dual to non-dual make many painful sensations be felt as actually pleasurable and not just some mind noise. Like most of my synesthetic sensations can't really work properly in duality and only cause suffering even if in non-duality they give bliss. Similarly other sources in bliss in non-duality people use are suffering in duality. Example is Joshu's Dog and answer 'Mu' to question if dog have buddha nature or not. Its pure suffering in non-non-dual state, drive dual mind crazy. Its non-dual state where point of this koan is revealed and its great bliss in itself. Same with other bliss ways like color synesthesia. In non-non-dual it would have to point to at least some taste to work at all and in non-dual it is hardly color->taste synesthesia as it is not even pointing to taster but to non-duality itself and different tastes of bliss... kinda like in Christianity God stop pointing to whatever one think of God but to bliss from non-duality itself.

I myself very rarely fall into non-non-dual and usually remain in half-non-dual though it can still happen which is bad and sad. State of full-non-dual can happen when conditions are right by which I don't mean only sitting meditation but normal everyday situations too. Difference between these states is quite big and between non-non-dual and full-non-dual just impossible.

names I picked are just example, different people name those stages differently, that doesn't even matter and what matter is how experience present itself and there seem to be those three stages. Half-non-dual is already very non-dual, just not fully and duality of it is in control of sensations. Full-non-duality is when duality does not arise in mind anymore with 'full' not implying some kind of ultimate or final state but just that mind is not fixed on controlling itself or controling anything for sake of accuracy or good performance but just express itself however it want at the moment.

I wonder how it compare to other people experiences, especially of those skilled folks who often reside in full-non-dual or no-dog or actual freedom or whatever they like to call it in their tradition of choice.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-7 下午7:20 回复Paweł K。
I have inklings of non-duality, by non-duality do you mean "lack of self sensations"? If so that only occurs rarely to me. I wish it would happen more often as I often feel that a 'self' is in the way all the time, hence the increased friction.

I would say that I experience an 'inkling' of non-duality all the time, that I have the core or essence of it, all the time. But it hasn't really expanded that much, if at all.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
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14-6-8 上午5:24 回复J J。
hi James
yes, by non-dual I mean lack of any sensation regarding self and no selfing
obvious elephant in the room 'the self' can't be there but also more subtle things like body skin tension or sensations regarding if thing I see is mine or not, how I feel, what I want, etc Nothing of the sort can arise, not that you think "I am one with the world" but that nothing like that ever arise in non-duality. Regarding my favourite mu koan you study it and realize that you do not know question and answer is pure bliss because it doesn't matter if that mean yes or no, it doesn't even matter if you have answer or not or that you have question or not. There is only nibbana and mu represent not caring for having it or not, being enlightened or not. Like thought 'I have done it, I am enlightened' is worst thing possible because it push you back and is hurting you so you rather remain ignorant of your own enlightenment status and remain in non-duality.

it does sound kinda ridiculous to be in such mind state all the time in our violent and demanding world and rather too big of a difference between normal dual perception so between dual and non-dual there is intermediate state which is neither dual nor non-dual, hence I named it half-non-dual

there is idea of me but only as aggregate of all the stuff that make up perception and my reaction to things, by which I mean knowledge of causes and their effect to eg. allow or not some sensations. Body's skin tension is almost not felt but instead of total transparency there is this kinda numbed down like one gets from local anesthesia and kinda blurred sensations that do appear. It is not felt as pure selfing but its obvious that it is something that relate to it but not actualized like seeing that from some distance through thick blurring glass that allow only blurred outlines without details. Same with all selfing sensations and self itself. Because of that blurriness it is possible to enter from dual/non-non-dual to this half-dual/half-non-dual mode relatively easy compared to sharp difference between dual and non-dual, kinda like with shift stick cars you do not start with eg. 4rd gear but you have to build momentum first on lower gears. Also with this half-non-dual perception what is important stuff you see that is not you is partially you, part of you, seen as indifferent from you and you indifferent from reality around you. What make it not full is that in full non-duality there is not even slightest idea about you and not you hence idea of being with reality does not arise either. But if thought 'I am exactly what?' arise you do not counter it with 'I am all the things in universe!' or something like that which would make just another version of subtle duality but you mark it as dual and unskillful loaded question and refuse to answer it. Just not worry if mind gets irritated several dozen thousandths times at first, the point is to unlearn to ask stupid and ignorant question and not to find answer.

general advice for anyone who haven't experienced non-dual more deeply and have issues to go there is that final goal should be final goal but intermediate goal were main focus until they are mastered and one of those intermediate goal is mastering half-non-duality that is like good foundation and main body of work is done there. Its there where one actually practice Noble Eightfold Path by which I mean choosing to allow or deny sensations from arising and if they arise stopping them. And one have to stop all stuff that describe him/her so its dirty work with a lot of hard choices. Thankfully as it seems there is no need to do like most spiritual masters advice to throw those babies with bathwater and instead all is necessary to throw bathwater. As I always said, desire is aggregate of skillful and unskillful sensations. It is possible to feel oneness with object of desire without suffering of not having it. In dual perception mode one can't really do any of these things like that so it is necessary to first get to stable ground of partial non-duality. In dual perception desire hit and it hit hard because it hits both mind and body, it create tension in your skin, in your muscles. How can you stop tension in your muscles? You can't and because of that you have to not feel them is such way in the first place.

I kinda get what you mean by 'inkling' and my advice would be to mix it with duality, with self. Its impossible for you to jump from dual to non-dual directly. You will only feel irritation from trying it. You have to merge those sensations of dual and non-dual into one. Try to feel duality and non-duality at once without any flickering back and forth, that should do the trick and open your way to half-non-duality like it did for me. I had the same issue, I tried to enter non-dual directly from duality and while it was not complete failure it is now considered by me to be unskillful way to do that that made me needlessly suffer. Well, there was probably benefit from practicing that but true change came with attainment of proper half-non-dual mode. There is even topic about that URL. Just mind that my then 'full non-dual' is nowhere near my current full-non-dual perception and realization that topic is about is what I call half-non-dual now. My no-self mode then was one of important ingredients of non-duality but not really what I call non-duality now. In no-self there were a lot of question, answers were just hard to find or pointed to non-existence, to fact that things like my own body movement is doing itself. In non-duality as I have it now there are no such questions, I just couldn't care less, and if one do arise (which is act of unskillfulness) I can answer 'mu' and be done with it. In half-non-duality there is answer to those questions but compared to 'mu' its just dry burnt and bitter toast. Still it is better to know those things to not ask those questions anymore.

ps. sry for wall-of-text above ;)
ps2. you probably already had half-non-dual state at some point in your life, as a kid for example. It is nothing out of ordinary. Its us who complicated those things with our ignorance and unskillful ideas. Imho many people never really fall down to state of self, they instinctively avoid dwelling in self based stuff too much. So technically it is nothing out of ordinary. Though there is difference between it being attainment and just natural state and it is in reliability and not falling from it. People even when are >90% in half-non-dual still easily fall to non-non-dual, are too dependent on conditions. Non-duality practitioner that have similar mind state as people around him differs in that he won't fall off this bull when there is some disturbance and this is what make main body of difference. Maybe after some time its possible to not fall even from full-non-dual but that for now is only speculation and its not like I even care bout that. I was caring about that I wouldn't be able to hit full-non-dual at all. I can't worry about any state being there for me or else I fall into duality and suffer. Feel where it is heading?

edit://
ps3. I should also note that this realization is not really even touching Three Characteristic or 'blips'. It skips all that entirely. 3C is such a dual idea anyway as eg. for impermanence there should be permanence and the point is to not ask question about permanence of things at all and not having any answer for those unasked question either. It doesn't matter if sensation is permanent or not if you do not allow yourself to desire it or cling or get away to it to the point that mind does not desire anything or cling or use aversion toward anything. In full-non-dual ideas like impermanence, non-satisfactoriness and no-self of sensations do not arise, ideas of being, of sensations, of emptiness, etc they all do not arise. Mind abides in nothing at all. If anything arise then it is not full-non-dual but half-non-dual, mind has fallen out of nibbana and one is not really enlightened anymore

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-8 下午12:12 回复Paweł K。
Hey Pawel,

Interesting, I would say that ever since December that I abide in a state of full non-duality. In other words I have penetrated and ended sakkaya-ditthi.

Acc. Pali Canon

"And what, bhikshus, is self identity?
It should be said: The five aggregates of clinging."

Those things were uprooted entirely for me in December, perhaps due to habitual tendencies I occasionally fall into old habits or do strange things.

But yes the existential angst or friction is completely gone. At first I was wary of claiming that in response to this thread because of my past here and so I feigned modesty, I lied in essence.

But yes I have ended the aggregates entirely and uprooted them. This is precisely why I had visions of being the Tathagata etc.

Because I was the Tathagata.

Thoughts?

-James

P.S The experience I had is essentially called the heart release (ceto vimutti), it is called the heartwood in the Saropama suttas. 

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-8 下午5:55 回复J J。
hi James
my thoughts would be to congratulate you and ask you nicely to describe it more thoroughly on sensation level in fine detail this experience and what changed after it, what you saw (visualizations), how it influenced perception of energetic body and physical body. Also do you have all chakras opened? Was this December experience opening heart chakra? I would be interested in crown chakra too, what it changed when you opened it?

unfortunately DhO lack good description of states, even though many people claim high path stuff they refrain from describing anything about it except claiming it. Its more probable than next person will quit DhO right after claiming 4th path than that he/she will describe anything about it that will be of use to anyone. Isn't this just saddening?

I have but one question more: what do you get from boasting about attainments?

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-8 下午6:49 回复Paweł K。
Hey Pawel!

Not entirely sure what I get from being here, as this place is entirely about speaking openly about attainments.

Phenomenologically there isn't much to describe, other than that the heart angst was uprooted, at the core. It is very satisfying, bodily, like touching the Deathless with the body.

Phenomenological descriptions often miss the point.

Description: I feel the physical body very rarely, for the most part I experience an energetic relaxation 24/7, the solidness of 'self' is gone, it is no longer solid, but penetrated and seen through.

I still experience pain, but its cause is seen through. Existential pain has no... something. I don't have angst, I experience dukkha fully knowing its cause and escape. As opposed to a solid and indestructible kernel of 'self' in the chest. Make sense?

I still experience aches and pains of the subtle body, but physically, almost no pain. The visions were experiences of 'seeing' myself as the Tathagata. It is a bit like seeing a destination when you're in a ship or on a car, you see the end point or destination in the horizon. In the same way, I saw the Tathagata, I was the Tathagata. I did not hallucinate and visually see anything, rather I saw with certainty. The dharma eye, so to speak.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-9 下午6:07 回复J J。
you see, there is a problem with descriptions like 'touching the Deathless with the body', they literally tells nothing about associated sensation because without any description its not possible to pick which sensations you are pointing to exactly. Its not like there is only one type of sensations that can happen...

sure there are a lot of people claiming attainments at DhO, its to be expected but it only show immaturity. Imho most of those claims are just silly including mine or yours. Strong meditative states and interesting perception changes can make impression of having ultimate enlightened and similar stuff but when one needs confirmation or approval prove its not it. One should mark those sensations as unskillful and be done with them. If one cannot do that then one is definitely not enlightened =)

anyhow, you failed to convince me of your full non-duality, your posts do not even show half-non-dual behavior, you seem rather unstable and more on a duality side than non-duality.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-10 上午8:06 回复Paweł K。
Pawel,

I agree with most of what you write, here is my factual rebuttal:

Yes, I am a stream-winner. The Pali Canon indicates that this is the case, no I have not attained "full non-duality". I find it odd for people (such as yourself) to be discussing Buddhism and Buddhist Dharma on a forum with such a lack of understanding that you possess, furthermore you are not even a stream-winner. How could you then discuss the Buddha Dharma?

You don't even have an intellectual understanding of the Dharma. I am nonplussed that you would presume to judge me (well not really nonplussed as I can see why would you judge me, given my "behavior"). But in reality my behavior is more of an attempt to assimilate myself into what I saw as a Buddhist community, which I just now realized is not Buddhist at all, but really a secular and synthetic Dharma. And the reason it has been dying (this community), is simply because it IS a secular and synthetic Dharma, sort of like a tree cut off from its roots.

So yes, I am better than you. Yes, I have more attainments than you. No, I am not boasting. I am establishing the factual basis of this conversation.

You strike me as someone who does not even meditate, but rather prances about this forum writing random crap and quoting the Heart Sutra and the Bible. And who knows, maybe even the Diamond Sutra!

Peace.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-10 上午11:12 回复J J。
But in reality my behavior is more of an attempt to assimilate myself into what I saw as a Buddhist community, which I just now realized is not Buddhist at all, but really a secular and synthetic Dharma. And the reason it has been dying (this community), is simply because it IS a secular and synthetic Dharma, sort of like a tree cut off from its roots.

I do not see it as dying. All communities that are longer than are few years have people bitching about 'community dying', even when they flourish. It depend on mind state. If someone think world is getting worse, web forums dying, etc then it only is sign of developing depression and nothing more. BTW DhO is about hardcore-dharma and not another Buddhist portal. Also as I see it as rather open community that while prefering some methods over others is not condemning different traditions than Theverada/MCTB/Buddhist. The fact that there are a lot of folks from different traditions like eg. AF is DhO biggest strength and as long as those people do not try to convert others its all good as all traditios have something to add to community... even AF...

Yes, I am a stream-winner. The Pali Canon indicates that this is the case, no I have not attained "full non-duality". I find it odd for people (such as yourself) to be discussing Buddhism and Buddhist Dharma on a forum with such a lack of understanding that you possess, furthermore you are not even a stream-winner. How could you then discuss the Buddha Dharma?

according to MCTB criteria I am at least SE as I had multiple fruitions, some of which are like being taken straight from book. Maybe not that much in quantity as Daniel describe I should have but I have my own theories why is that.
according to my own criteria which is following Noble Eightfold Path I am too SE
and lastly because my suffering level improvement I really do not care what path level I am at. I could be below typical human in path level for all I care. If I cared even a bit I would suffer and I don't like suffering so I do not care.

You don't even have an intellectual understanding of the Dharma. I am nonplussed that you would presume to judge me (well not really nonplussed as I can see why would you judge me, given my "behavior").

I do not have to care about proper understanding of dharma and will just make my own dharma instead, the one which works for met. I won't be misinterpreted as long as I describe in good detail what I mean by some concept like eg. non-duality, even if Buddha taught something different by that name.

So yes, I am better than you. Yes, I have more attainments than you. No, I am not boasting. I am establishing the factual basis of this conversation.

Good for you. For me it changes absolutely nothing. There were, are and will be people better than me even in stuff I put my whole heart to. I do not aim for being best or better at anything than anyone, like at all. If I was then I would suffer and I do not like suffering so I am not.

You strike me as someone who does not even meditate, but rather prances about this forum writing random crap and quoting the Heart Sutra and the Bible. And who knows, maybe even the Diamond Sutra!

its not random crap but my observations and theories which while might not be of any use to anyone or might not be too accurate, but are something I post wholeheartedly without intention to just troll. I sometimes quote various texts but rather seldom. What of it?
As for my meditation, I meditate enough to see that I suffer, to find source of my suffering, to end my suffering and to walk path that leads me to end of my suffering. And still there is/was enough meditation time left to open all chakras, develop means of having bliss in body, get rare forms of five-fold-synesthesia that advanced mediators have, to find my God and to feel love for world and myself. If I meditated any more I would probably have too much time to wonder about my neurotic self crap... so no, thank you for caring but I have just enough meditation for my personal needs.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-10 上午11:51 回复Paweł K。
I actually like this model, it being very similar to my own models and experience, that we progressively see phenomena as just phenomena, just where they are, on their own, as what is happening in the field of manifestation, and this becomes more complete until finally it flips over and then finally stays that way. I think where people get into trouble is when they are sure they understand what all of the more relative implications of that are and try to predict, map and model that for every person from every practice background and how that will specifically manifest.

The DhO doesn't seem to be dying from my point of view, though it has its periods of what I feel is better and worse, more and less active, with posts of higher and lower quality, etc, and there is plenty of traffic (I now host it at home so can monitor the traffic), plenty of hits on posts, as the counters clearly show, and still there are plenty of strong practitioners and eager adventurers who show up and learn from each other, so, while I do sometimes miss that very unusual and early period, there is plenty still today that I think is healthy, and I also don't miss some of the drama that was also part of that early period and has thankfully largely vanished for the time being.

RE: Stages of non-dual perception
答复
14-6-10 下午1:41 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Unfortunately it often still feels like I was doing something to sensations. Calling their cessation can happen automatically without me and when it does it that way they just seem to appear less and less and handle itself even more automatically. Unfortunately sometimes I have to step up and do it myself or otherwise it will develop into self. Its kinda ridiculous as this 'I' that is calling sensation cessation comes from the same consciousness that is to disappear so its kinda like committing mental suicide. In past I tried to find where do this 'mine', where do 'I' come from to maybe do something... I do not know what though... its just like itching which one can't scratch as it always is able to escape and trying to catch it make itching stronger and stronger until it becomes full blown suffering. Not to mention that methods to do that are all somewhat painful, no matter how I look at it now. So I gave up for time being and I will just practice being closest non-duality I can and maybe it 'flips' as you say, though I am not holding my breath. Reality is already just fine as it is when I do not let bad sensations to overtake mind.

Its nice you like my model. Usually my models become obsolete after few weeks after their creation. Will soon (month/two) see how this one will stand =)

Oh, and BTW, I'd like to thank you for taking time to write description of spaciousness of sensations you wrote not so long ago. My mind took it seriously and started feeling quality of spaciousness. At first it was kinda sweet white like samatha jhana bliss but also had black and bitter feel to it but now its more transparent. Also it probably helped me to open heart chakra more. It was somewhat opened (as in not clenched tight) already and now it is opened more. Not fully though yet. It made those spaciousness sensations more transparent.

Each chakra add qualities to sensations, like eg. 1st make them solid, 2nd make them kinda jello, 3rd dispersed and kinda flowery, 4th apparently spacious and volumetric, 5th smooth and airy, 6th glowing and to be experienced one sensation next to other, 7th enable them to be experienced at multiple sides, 8th point to external world, enable feeling other peoples bodies as my own. Each chakra add their own version of sweetness and change glow of colors to its own palette when activated. Also opening 6th allow me to feel colors as tastes though lately almost exclusively chakra tastes. That's my all chakras overview without going too much into details. Does that make any sense and is it how they present itself to you too?