I seem to remember there's a retreat center in or near Chiang Mai that has a program encouraging stream entry within 30 days. Please, anyone, send me the name and if possible the link so I may make further inquiries and possibly a reservation to go there in September or October. Thanks for any help.

Google this -> site:http://www.dharmaoverground.org retreat mahasi chiang
Good luck,
~D

I haven't sat there but I visited the place about 11 years ago. Looked nice enough. Technique is good. Big trick is to follow instructions all day long. That is basically the difference between people who do well vs don't. Avoid mosquitos.

Avoid mosquitos like the plague. I second this. My brother is in Thailand (and ironically enough got SE as well, though he is a hard worker. Not suggesting you aren't, just an FYI) and he tells us stories of having HUNDREDS (you read that right) of mosquito bites on his feet. He unfortunately got some nasty disease, that is curable, fortuantely. Something like Dengue fever or something.... he can tell you when he gets back on here.

Anyways, good luck Go get it!

I got dengue coming out of Cambodia, hit about the time my plane landed in Bangkok, and I went from 60 to 0 in about 30 minutes, the headache was truly amazing, the fevers up to 104, the body aches moderately terrible, but not worse than real influenza (apparently the name "breakbone fever" applies much more to local populations and doesn't affect tourists quite as much for reasons unknown), and the fatigue was so bad I could barely crawl down the stairs of the crappy little hotel that I stumbled into as a place to ride it out. It lasted about a week, but I was bone tired for 2 more weeks afterwards: major time lost, seriously unpleasant, highly unrecommended.

haha highly unrecommended?? Yes I would agree haha.... that made me laugh uncontrollably...


Sounds like my brother didn't get it as bad as you did.

There a few centers in Chiang Mai, 3 of those offer a modified technique of Mahasi noting developed by Ajahn Tong. Those places usually have a very high rotation level of yogis. Many backpackers only staying for a few days. Still, if you follow the instruction, which are sometimes confusing, you can get somewhere.

1. Wat Ram Poeng (max 28 days)
When there 2 times. The monks aren't very nice to be honest (I'm not the only one saying that) and I found their instructions lacking. Andrew got stream entry there and offer a good review:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4193658

2. Chom Tong in Chom Tong village. (28 days course but no limits on the length of stay)
The instructions are provided by laypeople in the international center and there was a lots of confusion sometimes. I seriously doubts the achievements of some of the "teachers". Still, a very nice place to stay and I heard that it might be possible to get instructions from a Thai monk with a translator. This is where Ajahn Tong resides. 

3. Doi Suthep (max 21 days)
http://www.doisuthep.com/?p=80
It's the same technique but taught in a shorter time. I like the schedule of Doi Sutep. There is a Dharma Talk at 5:30am, nothing profond but entertaining and its helps me starts my day. There is chanting at 5pm followed by a short Dharma Talk. There is only one monk that do the interview, Dharma talk and chanting and he is really dedicated, but a bit crazy (in a funny way). 

It's only at Doi Suthep that I finally got to figure out the idea behind the technique. Basically, it's an energy practice, and the various points they make you pay attention, and the order, is to have the energy circulate and released.  

The weather is also nicer at Doi Suthep. The monk pretty much let you mind your own business and the daily interview is usually quite basic. Monks at Wat Ram Poeng are more demanding but their attitude isn't too helpful.

Another place in Chiang Mai that offer a different technique is Wat Umong but I never took a course there.

Avoiding mosquitoes in SE Asia is a bit like diving into the ocean and trying to avoid water, if you ask me 

30 days is more than enough time to get stream-entry with fast, diligent noting and good concentration. No special monasteries or techniques necessary.

The basic is the same as the Mahasi technique, you note rising/falling and the 6 senses doors, with the distinction that at every other breath, you move your attention to a point in your body. 

A. So, you breath-in, breath-out, note Rising/Falling,
B. You relax (usually mean paying attention to your whole body) for one or two breath (Using the mental note "relaxing" is sometimes recommended) (the instruction is to not care about the breath during that step)
C. You move your attention to point #1 (you can note "touching" while doing it but it's not necessary) and you don't care about the breath during that step either. So you can rest your attention there for one or two breath.
D. Repeats steps ABC except that you move to another point of attention.


In total, there is 28 points of attention, but since I only stayed for 10 days, I only learned the first 14. 

Here is my loosy attempt at showing where the points are:

http://imgur.com/rTd12X1

I personally had difficulties with the techniques but it allowed me to figure out patways to release tension from my body, by figuring out how my muscles are connected. I will move tension down from my back, then along my hips, moving on the side of my legs, to the side of my feet and then to the top of my feet. The muscle there can allow some release of tension. If not, then up to my knees, and up to my quadriceps. 

The walking meditation is exactly the same as Mahasi. Also, we are required to use a timer to determine our sitting/walking time (incremented by 5 minutes everyday, usually).

thanks simon. i like it and will check out your link.
otm

howdy simon,
i just wanted to comment on that technique after i had practiced it a few times.  it is pretty powerful and makes sense on a lot of levels.  it also agrees and integrates some of the key points made by some teachers.

the anapansati is pretty much straight mahasi sayadow, the relaxing step ( i like your commentary about it too!) follows the vimilaramsi interpretation emphasizing the "relax" instruction on anapanasati, and the focusing on specific bodily sensations is closely analagous to the MCTB excersize of alternating noticing of the sensations on the index fingers.

i found myself getting much clearer on distinguishing between the actual sensations and the subsequent mental impressions.

thanks for the instruction.

tom

I know this is late for you perhaps. There is an international meditation center in Wat Chom Tong, about 60km sothwards from Chiang Mai. The monastery is lead by Ajahn Tong, and the basic course culminating in stream-entry takes around 25 days (they compress it down to 15-21 days in Europe - see e.g. the excellent Dhammacari center in Germany). The center is in Chom Tong described here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Chom+Tong+Insight+Meditation+Center . You find the contact at http://www.northernvipassana.org/about.html if needed.

I have been to all 3 centre in Chiang Mai that teach the Chom Tong method (Wat Chom Tong, Doi Suthep, Wa Ram Poeng). They all have their plus and cons. My main issue with Wat Chom Tong at the time is that the teachings were provided by laypeople who didn't have much experience and there was a somewhat cult-ish spirit around Ajahn Tong that had developed there.  My wife and I went back there some time ago and discussed with a western guy that just ordained after spending 6 months there. I know it's bad etiquette to diagnose others but still, it was clear as daylight that the guy hadn't crossed the A&P yet and was simply ridding on the A&P stage bliss. When he told me who was teaching him it didn't surprise me. 

Don't get me wrong, Chom Tong is a very important master and there is no doubt that there are good teachers under his umbrella. But there are issues with the development of the laypeople side of the monastary and I hope they will figure out a way to sort this out.

Another place in Chiang Mai that used Mahasi's technique:  Tanag Laenang - http://tananglaenang.wordpress.com/  (Sorry, but there seemed to be only Thai on their website, but the place looks really nice.  You can use google translate, I guess.)

This is the place where I have been interested in going, but it's simply too far away from BKK where I live.  It seemed to be in the similar lineage as the place I went to in July in Saraburi, which was very nice and had knowledgeable teacher.  I don't know how this place in Chiang Mai is though, as I have never been there myself.  I also don't know whether there will be any translators for foreigners.

I think I know what you talked about Wat Ram Poeng.  I have been to another place in that same tradition, and I really did not like their attitudes and their approaches to practice at all.

EDITED: The last paragraph about Wat Ram Poeng was from my wrong memory about different lineages in Thailand.  I don't know anything about the practice at Wat Ram Poeng.  (There is a comment about it after this, so I don't want to delete it.)

Their approaches to the practice is pretty strait forward present moment oriented: "Note (also using labeling) whatever experience arise then bring your attention back to the body (posture, breath, touching points)..."
Ok can feel a little bit dry but if you able to follow the instructions then good progress is possible.

NM
 

Sorry for being unclear.  I did not mean their approaches like what you said; that's the general approach for all Mahasi's tradition.  I mean (from my weekend-long experience in Luang Po Jaran's tradition that was not at Wat Ram Poeng), they did not emphasize being present enough with everything you do.  They only emphasized sitting and walking meditation in a very specific form, also with heavy emphasis on body.  Not much was mentioned about the other three foundations of mindfulness.  Also, there are usually so many people, making the place extremely crowded.  You can take 3 short steps during walking meditation (if you are lucky), and you have to turn around.  Although honestly, what turned me away from them was actually not the conditions of the place, it was that I did not trust the teacher.  The person did not say anything to convince me that he knew what he was talking about.

EDITED
I should not have said things without checking carefully.  I double-checked, and Wat Ram Poeng is not in the tradition of Luang Po Jaran.  Whatever I said above about the place is completely irrelevant, and I know nothing about the practice at Wat Ram Poeng.  Sorry about this.

I  would recommend Chom Tong if you still looking for places in Thailand in Mahasi tradition. Ok the way they teach is a bit different but effective as you have daily interviews with the teacher. I heard they have also english speaking monks you can practice with if you like.
Also 4-5 bigger meditation halls so enough space, rooms are good, food is good.  

Hi Noting Monkey,

Chom Tong sounds kind of interesting to me now, and considering that I'm living in Thailand, maybe I will try to go there to sit some years just for a change.  I have some questions about the center though: When were you there last?  How were the teachers when you were there?  If I'm working on a higher path, would they be able to guide me effectively?

My comment was specifically about the international center run by laypeople that is attached to Wat Chom Tong, and depending on the teacher someone get when he is there, as there are more than one and they are not all living there in all year long for most, your millage migh varies. If you want a review of Wat Ram Poeng, Andrea B. wrote the most accurate report on it:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4193658

Since you are in Bangkok, flying to Yangon to go to a place like Chanmyay Yeiktha or any other center in the Mahasi tradition in Myanmar, would give you a better chance of having an English-speaking monk that will also take you seriously. Chanmyay Yeiktha also have a center in Singapore. Getting to MBMC might be another option. Without speaking Thai, finding a good teacher in Thailand remains difficult.

Hi Julie,

I was there 4 years ago and last year. I can tell only positiv about the teachers and yes they can guide you on the higher path. (ok I can speak for teachers I used to work with) 
Some facts:
- they are not open for discussions. Can feel extremly disappointing when you want to tell your stuff and they don't really pay attention and only give the answere "ok nice, good, but did you note it?" "be more mindful...". Even if you tell that you are SE or higher path they won't blink ones or congratulate for your previous experiences. (which is I think not a bad thing...I was very thankful for this after...) 
- you have to follow the technique and report daily
- they are only interested in one thing: what have you experienced in the last 24 hours in walking&sitting meditation
- no other techniques are allowed
- so this is not a place where you can go and keep going with your technique you were practicing before! It is important to keep in mind

- this things maybe will give you the feeling that they don't take you seriously (I got the same. But if you can overcome your doubt, anger, disappointment etc, and come back to the present then you will see that their only goal is to make your practice going strait forward) 
- if your previous practice was different maybe you will have hard time to follow the instructions (which is I think normal as many doubt will come to you...)
They have 21 days "basic" course and after 10 days courses. They of course recommend to do the full course others you won't get the full benefit. (maybe they are more open for discussions when you finished the course, but not before and between)
So I say it is good to give a try if you don't have problem with the facts above.

Hope it helps
NM

Simon and Noting Monkey,

Thank you for all the detailed description about the center.

I actually speak Thai, so I guess my situation might be a little different from yours.  That's a reason that I want to stick with practicing in Thailand, even when my previous teacher in the US recommended that I went to practice in Myarmar.  In this way, I don't need a translator.

Chom Tong center does sound interesting.  The small Mahasi center in Saraburi I went to was quite similar in terms of daily interviews, but it might be good to have a change once in a while too.  I wonder if monks will interact with lay Thais the same way though, which is probably something I will have to find out for myself.

I'm glad you had a different experience that mine. I might just have been unlucky and ended up going there when the main teachers were away in their home country. As my comments are a bit inflammatory, I should explain how I end up having such opinion of the place. For most part of the time I have been there (12 days) I received my instructions from 3 differents students plus 1 teacher, and it was sometimes contradictory. It's seems a common practice in the Mahasi tradition to not discuss the stages with students (but some teachers discuss them), as knowing too much about the stages can mess up with the instructions. The irony in my case is that I wasn't very familiar with the stages at that time, and I was unkowningly in re-observation when I entered Chom Tong and for most part of the retreat. So, while I was working my ass off and had occasional foray in equanimity (I figured that out much later), they were expecting me to have pre-A&P symptoms (keeping asking about if I'm seeing lights, for one). I will not get into the details of the kind of confusion in instructions this has led to. So, as much as student scripting is said to be possible, teacher scripting is also a thing. My inquiries about if indeed there was such things as difficult stages (the teacher outright denied that such difficult stages could be encountered)   but this is how the young Anakin Skywalker in me became Dark Nigher, and in a fist of Re-Ob frustration left the retreat and I vowed myself revenge and now advocate for open discussion about the stages.

That surely give a lot more options. How is your experience with monks as a layperson in Thailand? I hope the effort to revive the Bhikkhunis will succeed in reversing the ban on their ordination. It would be a good start to reform the more conservative and traditional aspects of the traditions.

 I forgot that Chanmyay also have a center in Thailand. Chanmyay is straight Mahasi technique. 

http://www.chanmyay.org/oversea.htm

I feel that I'm not used to interacting with monks yet!!!  I would say though that at the two centers I went to so far, a lay practitioner did not have so many chances to interact with them, except during the daily interviews.  During this past retreat, I found myself interacting more with a laywoman, who serves as a volunteer to help run the retreat center and give basic instructions.  She definitely played a big role at the center and seemed to know what she was talking about very well.  She does not resume a role of a teacher though, but act more like staff; this is something very different from my experience at IMS where staff almost had no roles with our practices.  This seems to be the trend at many retreat centers in Thailand.

With that being said, I don't think the monk, who was our teacher, acts like he was superior to us in any ways.  In fact, he was very kind and friendly to us and want to connect with us, and I could feel a lot of metta and compassion from him.  During my daily life now, there is also another monk in Thai forest tradition coming to teach at the university I'm working at.  He also was very kind as well.  Yes, it might be a little difficult to get really close and be the best buddy/ friend as normal people would think of, but I feel that all my monk teachers give good suggestions/ warnings on this path and are friendly enough.  That's all I expect from them, I guess.

Of course, It would be great if they can revive the Bhikkhunis, and in fact, there are Bhikkhunies already fighting for this movement in Thailand.  I somehow doubt though that Bhikkhunis will truly be accepted by Bhikkhu community any time soon.  I found lots of religious places here very conservative, and many centers are very conservative, e.g. females still need to wear sarong during retreat, and everyone has to dress the same way, even though it has nothing to do with the practice.  I doubt that the conservative cultures/ thoughts will disappear any time soon.

Thanks for pointing this out.  It seemed the center is very closed to Bangkok too.  I will definitely check this out.

Hi Simon,

thanks for the explanation. It sounds really unlucky (as I was with the main teachers). I can imagine now the situation... 
It happened also to me that somebody was sitting on my report and started to ask (maybe on 2 days max) but the 
main teacher was always there. I was also annoyed by the questions first. It took me some days to get over my doubts but later
the whole thing just worked out well. The technique they are using helped my practice for sure.
But yes I can understand your point. Good that you mentioned.

Hi Simon,

Simon T.:

I really like Wat Ram Poeng and had a positive time there even though I did also find it tough as well. I liked the energy of the place even though yes it is a big busy noisy monastery with lots of other stuff going on. But if you keep you head down you can just get on with it and use all the noise as part of the practice anyhow. I think a lot of the positive vibe comes from the Abbot Ajahn Suphan who has a really great energy about him. Although I didn't interact with him much (I reported to him once) and I'm not sure how good his English is, you can see he is a man so at ease with himself and life whether he is just walking alone through the grounds or giving a Dhamma talk to 300 odd people on Buddha Day marking start of rains retreat.

I went there last in July for 30 full days plus a day either side when arriving/leaving. They didn't question me at all about the length I wrote down to stay. It says on their website that you can stay for 6 weeks and you need approval if you want longer (which I'm sure would be fine if you're already there and have "behaved yourself" ie not freaked out). There was another guy there for 40 days (if you do the basic 26-day course you can come back multiple times to do their 10 day "advanced course"). The enrolment monk is a bit rude or eccentric or both depending on how you look at it but you don't deal much with him once you're there. At least I didn't have cause to. Basically as long as you stick to the rules and don't talk he won't have a problem with you.

The monk who gives the daily interviews for foreigners was pleasant enough. He looks like a Westerner (his mother was German and father Thai) and is fluent in Thai, German and English. Yes, you have to follow the script as it were and as I'm not an advanced practitioner I'm not sure how helpful he would be if you were having higher stages of insight. He was good to me and yes he pushed me to sleep only 4 hours a night and also prepare me for the determination (3 days and nights continuous practice without sleep - I went 86 hours!!! so impressed myself in that regard because it's quite a process to "force" yourself through). He also told me that he had been meditating since he was about 13, and that he ordained when he was 38 (he is 42) and during the first 9 months as a monk he was on retreat. So, read into that what you will about his possible insight attainments. I'd like to think Ajahn Suphan would not have given him such a responsibility for teaching unless he actually had reached 1st path or beyond...
But I've no idea.

When were you at Wat Ram Poeng Simon?

Simon T.:

I was at Doi Suthep in 2010. Unless it's changed the Dhamma talk was given then at 8 am. And if it's the same teacher I had back then still then yes he is rather eccentric and his English is not very good but he told his stories with such warmth and heart that it was very enjoyable. I didn't quite know what the heck I was up to as I'd only really done Goenka till that point, so I didn't figure out the idea behind the technique at that time. I also felt quite alone there as although there were a few other foreigners around noone seemed to be making the effort to practice continuously. And many were talking too. It wasn't at all strict. Not sure why it is 21 days basic there and 26 days just a few km away at WRP for the same technique. Also, the determination seemed to be optional at Doi Suthep when I was there (I still tried it then but had much more difficulty and bailed out on the 3rd night) whereas at WRP it seemed to be mandatory.

Simon T.:

Depends what you like I guess. I was there in November/December and being up a mountainside it really got quite cold for Thailand and also very windy at times and because the glass windows (the slatted time) didn't shut properly it cut through my room so I had to wrap up warm at night. No need for fans!! However, they had nearly finished building a new accomodation block, dining hall and meditation hall. So, the battered old halls and rooms I was in are probably not used any more.

The temperature in WRP which is just a few km West of old Chiang Mai city was not too hot in July. Some rain at times. As for mosquitos, well that's to be expected in Asia. The rooms and the hall all have mesh protectors on the windows so it's really not a problem in the buildings.

Based on my experiences I would definitely recommend WRP as a place to practice Mahasi style. Oh yes, you only get one Dhamma talk a week given by a really lovely Bhikkhuni (yes a fully ordained nun in Thailand wearing brown robes!). She speaks English well and although the talks are based at beginners (and most seem to not have done much meditation before I think) I still found them endearing talks because they come from the heart and are not dry! I think you could probably see her too if you really felt the need (or were perhaps having some problems with your Dhamma practice there).

I also wouldn't rule out Doi Suthep.

It seems a bit random at any of these places (having read others comments) about how good a teacher you'll get.

Piers

Hi Pier,

This a good review of Wat Ram Poeng. It was a very poor choice of words of mine and more based on my first retreat there. Iwas there 3 years ago and again this winter. Ajahn Suphan was out of the country on my first retreat and the replacing monk wasn't much into teaching, it seems.  I'm pretty sure Ajahn Suphan is considered an arahant and he gave me a very good vibe and I should have noted that.  I had a few interviews with him during my last retreat and he speak very little English but he understand it. 

I love the monk at Doi Suthep. He is one of a kind. Some other monk told my wife that even monks think of him as being on the crazy side. He doesn't have much social filter, talking of never have experienced sex and so forth, and his dharma talk are all over the place but following his train of thought is a good meditation. His life is completely dedicated to teaching and he don't want to have anything to do with ceremonial stuff. Possibly his English has improved since 2010 as it was now good enough to answer my questions and he would give me important precision.

Doi Suthep might be more of a place to learn the technique and explore it in a relaxing environment without too much pressure. As you said, people don't practice very hard and it's mostly backpacker wanting to experience meditation, some staying only for 5 days. Still, I found other meditators less distracting there than at WRP, where I really had to isolate myself.

WRP is more about really pushing the thing. Maybe a critic I have about the technique and the way that it is taught, it's that there are so many steps to it and they are being added at such a fast pace, if we are entering the retreat in a difficult stage (think Re-Observation) it's too much to handle. The mind is not receptive to form the habit of each of those steps as it depends on memory recall at each breath. It's a technique that package a lot. It's like combining noting of the 6 senses, nothing of the breath, relaxation work, energy work, and counting backward all at the same time. Despite what I said about Chom Thong, if someone want to learn it more progressively it would be a better choice as there is no limit on the lengh of the stay (there is no perfect center). My advice would be to learn the technique in Doi Suthep and then move to one of the other center to practice it well.