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Stream Entry

Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?

Hi, all. Last Friday, August 8, during a lunchtime group sit, something staggering happened that may have been stream entry. I don't have time at the moment to detail what happened, but I will elsewhere later, when I have more time, perhaps tonight.

I know people can easily be fooled by imposter states and stages, so I'm following Daniel's advice to let what happened settle and just continue to practice with curiosity and wait to see what happens. 

However, here is my question: Is it possible to have stream entry fruition after 2 months of Equanimity and experiencing formations--and then after SE afterglow to find oneself knocked completely out of Equanimity and off of the ability to sense formations? Can a dramatic cessation event actually usher in a falling back down the stages instead of SE?

After 2 days of really impressive afterglow despite my having a migraine for almost the whole 2 days, my sits are now shit. I can't sense vibrations or any cycling at all, certanly not formations. I now don't even have the EQ I enjoyed for 2 months straight. I've done only 2 sits since that Friday event, because of migraine, but those two sits were like I was a beginner at mediation--lots of obtrusive discursive thought, itching, aching, restlessness, and the like!

Any idea what could be going on and whether the sudden knock off EQ is a sign for or against SE?

I know I'm being impatient and need to keep practicing, regardless, but I'd still like to know what is possibly going on with the sudden inability to meditate after stunning High EQ and an SE-type cessation event.. Again, I'll post the whole event in diagnostic clinic when I have time.

Love and thanks,

Jenny

Without really knowing anything about the suspected SE event, maybe you dropped back into re-ob? It is pretty crummy to drop from EQ down to re-ob, but they are right next to each other. My last retreat was mostly tottering from EQ to re-ob daily. It feels like being above the clouds with a vast and panoramic awareness, then dipping below them and finding yourself beneath a storm of neurotic obsessive thoughts, reactivity, itching, pains, and chaotic sensations to me. Stream entry ought to do some sort of damage to your sense of center point though- possibly physically, with a feeling of space where a sense of observer was contracted, but most definitely with a perceptible change in your relationship to experience, like sensations are no longer being fed through a vantage point, like observation is occuring without some undefined point which observations happen to. That's my take on it, at least.

Sensations that implied self are still intact, but the weight/gravity/contraction around them should greatly loosen. Like seeing a reflection on the water and realizing that it has no substance/has no actual matter. 

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/12/14 4:33 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Yes! I totally have that loss of contracted "self" and center--and it is not subtle! It started right after the event. I feel very, very different.

It is just weird that I'm not experiencing further fruitions or noticing cycling. Maybe it is too soon. Maybe I'm just not good at noticing the cycling. And maybe I've not had another full cycling and  fruition because I have not had a chance to sit for longer than 25 minutes since Friday.

I will detail what happened Friday when I am home from the office.

Jenny

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/12/14 4:34 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
This is an apt expression of the shift. So maybe it is so. Time will tell.

Daniel's nana and jhana mind map walkthrough is pretty much essential viewing. Something that really caught me off guard / I had completely misunderstood was the trip back to mind & body after review, which had me feeling like something of a total impostor. Four days seems like a rather short time to spend in review, but this is just my own experience -- I'm sure others can weigh in. Keep in mind that an inability to sense cycling doesn't mean it's not happening anyway.

That video also addresses the re-observation <--> EQ chin-ups, including a funky little detour / near miss that can trigger from the EQ mini dark night, punting the practitioner back to desire for deliverance. Not saying this is necessarily the case, just some food for thought.

If anything kept me from enjoying SE, it was worrying over whether or not I had actually landed SE. Which is silly, and more than a little counter-productive. In short: don't worry, be equanimous.

Hey Jen, I am not a stream-enterer so I unfortunately can't speak from personal experience (yet!), but I do have some points of interest.

First there is the possibility that you fell back into Re-Obs, but the "contracted sense of self" you describe is certainly interesting, and indicates that something else may be going on.

Stream entry isn't always light and bunnies. For some it is quite unsettling or confusing, at least at first. I've read numerous threads about "post-path headaches" that are apparently common. It is quite possible that the shockwaves of stream-entry are just giving you a difficult time. Fruitions are not always obvious, especially after first path. For some they don't become obvious until later paths (I hear third path can be a doozy). 

Something you might try-- "just sitting" and seeing what the mind does by itself.

Also, you already know this, but believing one has attained a path, when one in fact hasn't, can really screw up your practice. Keep meditating as usual to be on the safe side.

On a different note, could you shoot me a PM or email?  I have a question I would like to ask you. It pertains to my practice and I think you may have some insight (ha ha). My email is ayearhasgone@gmail.com. 

Mark your calender for a year and a day so we can plan a celebration. emoticon

Eric

and then after SE afterglow to find oneself knocked completely out of Equanimity and off of the ability to sense formations? Can a dramatic cessation event actually usher in a falling back down the stages instead of SE?


In short, no.  If you had attained path there should have been three little blips (or something resembling three blips) and then a cessation event (a bigger blip) followed by the A&P which then automatically cycles through the dark night and back up into equanimity (with formations) and then it starts over again.  It's true that it's possible for someone to miss all 4 blips.   

I suppose starting over at the A&P could be mistaken for "falling back down," but if you find this experience being more like re-observation then you didn't hit stream-entry and instead fell back to re-observation which isn't really a big deal.  Just meditate to go back into equanimity and try again.

The inability to meditate could be symptoms of being back in the dark night (re-observation).

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/12/14 9:20 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I did have three of those and then an absolute discontinuity, and then reality "rebooted." And the rebooting was very interesting, to say the least.

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
stream entry equanimity formations cycling review
Answer
8/12/14 10:53 PM as a reply to Mind over easy.
Brief Background

Okay, quick version of history is as follows: I've been meditating for 3 years, never been on retreat, and rarely sit more than 30 minutes a day. I experienced A&P phenomena during the second or third time I ever sat. I do not practice "noting," but rather just "noticing," without labeling, as labeling has always been too slow. 

From April through July 2013 I was in a clear A&P phase, with lucid dreaming many nights, culminating in the A&P Event during one of these dreams, in which I meditated. I had all the zealot post-A&P clarity that is classic, and from that point on intense faith in my eventual awakening. Exactly a week later, and almost a year to the day before this possible SE event I'll describe, I entered DN and cycled around in that twice at the macro level until the second week of June 2014, when it broke and low EQ began. 

From second the week in June, I steadily climbed to High EQ, all the while seeing/hearing/feeling (but mainly seeing) formations, although without being able to clearly see the beginnings and endings . . . until this past Friday. I saw formations at every single sit for 2 months and experienced all the other characteristics of EQ, but assumed that I would fall back down the through the earlier stages again because, honestly, I've put very little total time into my formal practice (yeah, I'm a lazy Buddhist).

My longer and weirder history is here, in case you are mobidly curious:

[url=]http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4542709?_19_redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_keywords%3Dlet%2Bme%2Boff%2Bthis%2Bride%26_19_searchCategoryId%3D0%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_redirect%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%252Fweb%252Fguest%252Fdiscussion%252F-%252Fmessage_boards%252Fmessage-boards-home%26_19_formDate%3D1407898323199

(How do I make links shorter?)

Night Before Event: My Sit and My One and Only Resolution to Meet Stream Entry

Thursday night, the night before the event I'll try to describe, I logged my sit with just the following words to show the sequence of what I noticed:

1.      Fast vibrations (seeing, feeling)
2.      Intense multilayered hearing of "silence" as particles
3.      Flows in the carpet arise, flows in the walls, flows wherever I look (formations)
4.      Trying to locate sense of self watching, failing
5.      Several feelings of rapid, momentary dislocation
6.      Intimacy with the flowing arises
7.      Fear arises
8.      Remembering to investigate fear
9.      Fear alternates with strange rapture
10.    Thought arises that I want and expect stream entry but am afraid of cessation
11.    Mild nausea arises (physical)
12.    Expansive feeling of love arises, nausea vanishes
13.    Surprise, wonder blooms
14.    Resolve formally to reach stream entry as soon as possible [this was the first and only time I've resolved this.]
15.    Bell and stop

Friday, August 8, at a Lunchtime Group Sit at Work (30 Minutes)

The event happened unexpectedly, right after the moment that an intensely clear realization arose about the now slowed-down, almost rhythmic formations I was watching arise and pass away clearly, from beginning to gone. What I call formations are like 3D "blooms." And their passing away is like a concave, inverted bloom that is blank at center--even black, to tell the truth. They are big and constantly fluxing and flowing. Normally they are moving so constantly that I cannot catch the instant of arising or the instant of "gone." Moreover, one tend to overlap another, so this fact makes seeing specific beginnings and endings hard (impossible till this day).

The realization was pre-verbal, but the way I would put it now is that the "gone" I could suddenly watch is actually still a kind of arising, and the reason that it is so is that there is, or was, the frame of reference that was the "real" arising. As far as I can tell, this crystal clear realization ushered me into a kind of collapse of duality.

As soon as I realized that "gone" wasn't actually GONE gone, absolute discontinuity! So I remember up to that moment, and then I remember back to what it was like when reality was coming back online. And that was really the most earth-shattering moment--the rebooting of the world: During those few moments, "I" was dislocated into everything around me, with nothing on "my" side, no center, no sense of within-body or location-grounding. "I" was gone!

I knew something transformative was happening, or had happend. I remembered to try to see clearly.There was this hard-to-describe quality that was visual, I think (but I'm not absolutely sure I was physically seeing), and the closest I can come to describing it is to point to what happens in planetarium shows or movies when they are trying to convey warp speed through the stars, and the stars turn into whiteness bleared out into bright white lines. The difference in this case was that there was no contrasting darkness or outer space background, so I'm not even positive it was visual apprehension of white lines at all. If so, my sense was of white-on-white/clear. I guess sometimes experiences are so unusual that all we can do is grab onto metaphors for them. At any rate, there was a quality of ZOOM! and radical dislocation, or diffusion, of center and ground--no "this" side. I now understand, "In the seeing, only the seen. . . ."

Immediately, and to my confusion, the meditation bell rang. And the oddest thing then was that I was almost paralyzed. I couldn't stop meditating, even when I finally rose, stunned, and we walked upstairs to the cafe and ate! 

The "door" was emptiness, with impermance secondary. I'm not sure why I think this; maybe it was the other way around.

Afterglow

Thereafter, I felt different--and not subtlely different, but very different. Specifically, I feel noticeably less concentrated/localized within the boundaries of my body and immediate reach. I flow out further into the far off. Saturday I experienced cycling sensations of being diffused into all that surrounds me, feeling intense gratitude and weepy love for everyone (and telling them), and feeling a little bit scared/queasy at the sheer intensity of whatever has happened. At the restaurant I ate in Saturday, I could distinctly hear all the voices and conversations at once, individually, hearing each so acutely that "I" was there in the sound, not where I usually am, in me. It is hard to describe, but something is very, very different now.

I had a migraine headache all Saturday and most of Sunday. I sat only about 25 minutes Sunday night and again Monday night--but was itching, restless, aching, and unable to see even vibrations that I always do, both times. So I started to feel doubt. I guess I assumed one stayed in EQ for a bit after SE. Whatever the event was, after 2 days of afterglow, it kicked me out of EQ. However, the diffused sense of "me" remains. If this was not SE, it was a stunningly convincing imitation--especially given that my "progress" through the stages to that point was "by the book" and I have zero doubt that I was in High EQ.

If this was not SE, it was a stunningly convincing imitation--especially given that my "progress" through the stages to that point was "by the book" and I have zero doubt that I was in High EQ.


It looks like you've probably gotten stream-entry. See if you can call up a fruition when you're meditating.  If you can't call one up, then watch out for ones that might happen spontaneously  Don't get too obsessed about this if you can't get one or one doesn't come up.  See if you can call them up in a relaxed un-obsessed way.     

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 6:20 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Also look for A&P. Sometimes it is more noticable than the fruition/cessation. You might see flashes of lights or get energetic tingles.

Also see if you have better access to the jhanas. Intend to cultivate manic pleasure, then sunbathing tranquility, then cool bliss, then spaciousness. The cool bliss sensations may come easiest, since cycling takes you back to the A&P --- which coorrelates to the third jhana.

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 10:10 AM as a reply to _.
Congradulations! Being around equanimity myself, hearing your story is very encouraging!

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 11:28 AM as a reply to _.
Congats! (claps with one hand)
Sounds pretty textbook....you did read the textbook though...
May I reccomend making a new strong resolution to move thru the Nanas and get to cessasion again....They are amazingly fun for quite a while...until the newness fades.
This is something I recommend doing....Panoramic Awareness; unfocused awareness of the entire visual field...add a little awe feeling to it. I wish I had practiced the Panoramic Awareness more because when it
faded I really missed it a bunch. At second path it came back and I
could with sustained effort reside in it. At third path it is your
baseline state until you add thinking layers to it which obscures it,
until you let go of thinking again.
You are in the honeymoon phase now and it lasts for most people about month or so and then the energetic intensity wears off and you get so used to the new state that everything calms down to your new baseline "normal". Enjoy the intensity now.
Play around while the intensity lasts and maybe explore the jhanas a bit....resolutions/intentions have much power to them right now too.
Have fun!
~D

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 6:53 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Thanks--will do. I think it was your idea to make a formal resolution to meet SE--which I read on someone else's thread and then tried. Wow, that worked quickly! I guess I need to resolve more often!

Cheers,
Jenny

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 6:57 PM as a reply to John M..
I too have been feeling like an imposter--particularly since I really put in very little total time on the cushion. I think I just have leaky boundaries, openness to alterned states and weird happenings, for whatever reason. But I also feel that my Dark Nights were particularly horrific. I guess there is no correlation between horror of DN and speed to SE, though. 

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 7:02 PM as a reply to Jason Snyder.
Good--you can do it! Or something can if you just stay with it. I read what seemed like contradictory advice: to make strong resolutions, and to let whatever happens happen without obsessing. I did both in the end. I made the resolution the night before, a strong welling up of verbalized intent and faith, but after that, in meditation itself, I relaxed and didn't strain toward SE--in fact, it seems that it won't occur unless you are really geniunely focused on the formations/equanimity and not on anticipating SE. Or--that's how it seemed to be for me, anyway. 

May you reach SE soon!

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 7:07 PM as a reply to x x.
Yes, last night again I did too short of a sit, but I did have the vibrations, a few sparkles, and then nausea and fear. So maybe this is a bit of cycling. 

That is a really helpful way of describing the jhanas! I will have to remember that.

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/13/14 7:10 PM as a reply to Tom Tom.
So a couple of times I've had momentary feelings of spinning and falling out a split second, but there was no discernible bliss wave or anything dramatic like the event from Friday. I'll keep looking. I need a longer sit, I think--so I need to stop spending all night on the DhO!

RE: Can Stream Entry Knock One Out of Equanimity and Formations?
Answer
8/14/14 3:24 AM as a reply to x x.
Okay, well, still no sign yet of another fruition. I've been tired in the evening so doing short sits, but sleeping little (kind of wired) and seeing flashing images in my minds eye when I try to sleep, which is why I'm still up. I do see fine vibrations when I sit and just a few sparkles during here and there (not nearly as dramatic as last year's A&P), followed by mild nausea, oddly enough.

The really standout thing in the past few sits, though, has been twitching and trembling--also a bit of swaying, but I had that swaying thing first emerge in low EQ, too. Tonight my left elbow and upper arm muscles twitched involuntarily (fasiculations) pretty much the whole sit, which was very distracting. It also feels like my eyelids are not so much twitching as just prone to fluttering. Really weird.

Return of high sex drive and heady exuberance and excitement too high to sleep suggests to me that I am generally hanging out in A&P currently. The nausea thing is like Disgust. The rest, if there, is vague.