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Shinzen Young

Not to suppress his sense of self

Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 5:29 AM
In this interview (2009) Shinzen says he learned not to suppress his sense of self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CdP1gQBlvAE

I assume this is part of what he teaches too. It seems a little different from hte explanations I've heard of a non-dual "enlightened" for example as described by Daniel.

Would be great to hear more about Shinzen's take on this. Thanks.

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 6:14 AM as a reply to Mark.
Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn't suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?

http://www.sasakiarchive.com/

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 8:33 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
sawfoot _:
Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn't suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?

http://www.sasakiarchive.com/
Sawfoot can we please have this thread focus on the question in regards to Shinzen. This was posted in the sub-forum for Shinzen not Sasaki. Have you worked with Shinzen's methods ?

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 9:28 AM as a reply to Mark.
There are debates in Buddhism but suppressing a sense of self is aversion which should also feel like a self.  You need a sense of likes and dislikes but to cling to them less.  It's hard to say that Daniel is against a sense of self when his book talks about how emotions are still apart of you even if you're an arhat.  He also posted that all the meditation masters he's met have signs of emotions on their faces.

The main goal that teachers look at is whether greed, hate and delusion are greatly attenuated.  Shinzen's interview in batgap talks about preparation for extreme things like Syrian torture.  This shows there's a gradation and most people (including masters) aren't anywhere near a Syrian jail and if they were suprised without prepration they would fail.  I think desire and ill will continue on in all people but it's reduced enough so that they can pursue higher values and in some people it's not gone far enough and they are living hypocritically.

This makes sense in myself in that I have gradually more disenchantment but it's nowhere near 100% and I don't believe I'll achieve that or even want that.

In the same interview Shinzen talks about how despite the blissfulness of awakening, people still have sexual relations.  These are big flags to show people what awakening is and what it is not.

I personally like the idea of monks who have strong sexual desires to disrobe and live a layman's life.  They should shack up with someone like Stephen and Martine Batchelor did.

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 9:33 AM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
sawfoot _:
Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn't suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?

http://www.sasakiarchive.com/
Sawfoot can we please have this thread focus on the question in regards to Shinzen. This was posted in the sub-forum for Shinzen not Sasaki. Have you worked with Shinzen's methods ?
Not in any substantive way.

It seems relevant to me - Shinzen says he learned not to suppress his sense of self from the teachings of Joshu Sasaki Roshi. So if he teaches it, it is a teaching of this teacher. Though from what I know it isn't a main feature of Shinzen's public teachings.  


RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 10:05 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
There are debates in Buddhism but suppressing a sense of self is aversion which should also feel like a self.  You need a sense of likes and dislikes but to cling to them less.  It's hard to say that Daniel is against a sense of self when his book talks about how emotions are still apart of you even if you're an arhat.  He also posted that all the meditation masters he's met have signs of emotions on their faces.

The main goal that teachers look at is whether greed, hate and delusion are greatly attenuated.  Shinzen's interview in batgap talks about preparation for extreme things like Syrian torture.  This shows there's a gradation and most people (including masters) aren't anywhere near a Syrian jail and if they were suprised without prepration they would fail.  I think desire and ill will continue on in all people but it's reduced enough so that they can pursue higher values and in some people it's not gone far enough and they are living hypocritically.

This makes sense in myself in that I have gradually more disenchantment but it's nowhere near 100% and I don't believe I'll achieve that or even want that.

In the same interview Shinzen talks about how despite the blissfulness of awakening, people still have sexual relations.  These are big flags to show people what awakening is and what it is not.

I personally like the idea of monks who have strong sexual desires to disrobe and live a layman's life.  They should shack up with someone like Stephen and Martine Batchelor did.

Hi Richard,

It makes sense to me that suppressing the self is not a good thing. But I seem to have heard the idea of the self "dissolving" many times. 

Maybe I'm reading into it too much. I guess a "sense of self" does not require a dual perspective. Someone with a dual perspective can appreciate the self is an illusion and I guess someone with a non-dual perspective could appreciate the notion of their self.

I was surprised by Shinzen's explanation in that interview as it seemed more than a "sense of self". He spoke of an oscillation between absolutely no self and full on self. It is the first time I've heard that type of description.

I suspect that the experience of awakening is largely influenced by the goals and techniques used. So if suppression of self (e.g. Gary Weber) is the goal then that might be quite radical. 

In BATGAP Shinzen talks about his "sain grandiosity" and I guess this makes a lot of sense if the self is still there.

I like the idea of stopping the second dart. Which seems to be a driver for my initial interest in meditation. Is Shinzen proposing a sort of reformatting of the ego as opposed to getting "rid" of it ?

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 11:01 AM as a reply to Mark.
This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then "thing-ness" including "self-ness" becomes something that isn't actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I'm sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It's the clinging that's the problem.  Have preferences but don't HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else. Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).

To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it's not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don't want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It's kind of asking "what next, what next, what next?"  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.

These talks might help you:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html
Especially 35:25
http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/9553.html

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 11:11 AM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
I assume this is part of what he teaches too. It seems a little different from hte explanations I've heard of a non-dual "enlightened" for example as described by Daniel.

Would be great to hear more about Shinzen's take on this. Thanks.


Here is my take on it -
Duality means there are sensations perceived wherein some of them are a much higher priority than others as well as some implying that there is a permanent "self" as a thing/object/doer.
In non-duality sensations get the same priority and there is no longer the possessive difference between certain internal vs external sensations(as well as the elimination of stress that is associated with this). The particular identification of some sensations that imply a "self-object" are gone but sensations that imply a self as "process" continue. (there is no thing/object/doer that is "me" but the process of existence continues) Choosing to suppress certain sensations are then forcing an artificial low priority to achieve an egoistic goal of supposed awakening to "no self never in anyway" (no pain or emotions etc.)
Good luck
~D

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 1:12 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Hi D,

This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.

I've heard (mainly a few BATGAP interviews) a notion of living purely in the present. I assume that means being unable to imagine consequences of potential actions. It seems the creative process is often not about running with the first idea but playing out the ideas and throwing most of them away. Not being able to perform that type of activity seems more handicap than advantage.

I've also heard reports of sensations getting the same priority, so for example loosing the ability to concentrate (obviously not everyone on BATGAP reports that). Again it is hard to see the advantage of that - I mean sensations are not equivalent in the real world - admire the big wall painting or notice the small flicker which is the shadow of a saber tooth tiger emoticon Another example, I like being able to reach a state of flow in an activity to the point of not hearing/seeing things around me, I suspect it is more effective for the particular activity.

When Shinzen states "sane grandiosity" that seems to suggest a real ego at work - but maybe not an ego functioning on fear ?

I should have framed the subject better. I don't think suppressing the sense of self is a good thing. The way Shinzen explains how the self is experienced is like a wave function. This seems very different from the way it is typically described on this forum (your description aligns with what I woulds have expected). Have you watched the video?
 

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 1:37 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then "thing-ness" including "self-ness" becomes something that isn't actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I'm sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  



I imagine so. But you could imagine seeing those behaviours as arising without owning them. Things "unfolding" in the only way they can etc...

The character and behaviours could be perceived as conditioned arisings - nothing to own, nobody to own them.

I get the impression some people experience that extreme and Shinzen is talking about a very different experience. Where the self is "oscillating" between being fully present and not present. Have you watched that video ?


Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It's the clinging that's the problem.  Have preferences but don't HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else.



People seem to report many other things going - like thoughts for example (and not just self referential thoughts).



Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).

To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it's not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don't want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It's kind of asking "what next, what next, what next?"  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.

These talks might help you:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html
Especially 35:25



That was very interesting thanks. And thanks so much for pointing out the time! Do you think that the cycling of self that Shizen talks about equates with the cycling in that talk i.e. Shinzen had not progressed beyond that point ?


RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 1:58 PM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
Hi D,

This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.
I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then "did I watch the video?" answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 2:46 PM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
Richard Zen:
This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then "thing-ness" including "self-ness" becomes something that isn't actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I'm sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  



I imagine so. But you could imagine seeing those behaviours as arising without owning them. Things "unfolding" in the only way they can etc...

The character and behaviours could be perceived as conditioned arisings - nothing to own, nobody to own them.

I get the impression some people experience that extreme and Shinzen is talking about a very different experience. Where the self is "oscillating" between being fully present and not present. Have you watched that video ?


Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It's the clinging that's the problem.  Have preferences but don't HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else.



People seem to report many other things going - like thoughts for example (and not just self referential thoughts).



Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).

To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it's not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don't want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It's kind of asking "what next, what next, what next?"  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.

These talks might help you:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html
Especially 35:25



That was very interesting thanks. And thanks so much for pointing out the time! Do you think that the cycling of self that Shizen talks about equates with the cycling in that talk i.e. Shinzen had not progressed beyond that point ?

I do imagine people get this.  When I stay present I could think lust for something or someone and the dependent arising consequences of that happens.  Due to being present and welcoming the sensations (to avoid repression), I can let it drop and then get rewarded with a relief.  I could then wonder how it got started and realize that the conditioned thought came out of nowhere and is not located anywhere now.

It's debatable if these cycles really die down for good.  Ron Crouch said to me that he doesn't meditate much anymore and rarely out of the blue he might get angry in traffic and feel "wow I haven't seen that for a long time?"  Desire and Ill Will are weakened but not completely eradicated. All the awakened instructors are cagey in saying they are fully enlightened because nobody is.  Maybe a person is fully enlightened if they are secluded from temptations and not given the chance to fail.

The best prescription is to keep relaxing the push and pull of likes and dislikes and be ready for them no matter how many years you've meditated.  Having no illusions that they may come back is the right attitude.  Look at Philip Seymour Hoffmann.  He stopped drugs for decades and fell back into them from a weak impulse.  I don't think anyone should feel safe.

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 3:16 PM as a reply to Mark.
Not really an answer but this helped explain more about what Shinzen thinks of enlightenment. 

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

One difference it seems is on DhO enlightenment seems reserved for 4th path whereas Shinzen considers Stream-Entry as enlightenment (only to a much lesser extent).

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 3:21 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Thanks Richard. You are right that these are not big issues for my own practise at this stage. I was wondering about exploring Shinzen's instruction more and I think there is some truth to - the expectations and methods influencing the results. So I wanted to get a better understanding of the results Shinzen believes he has achieved and what he thinks of them. So far I've found his attitude reassuring for exampel absolutes don't seem to play a big part in his communication. 

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 3:44 PM as a reply to Mark.
I would look at these interviews if you haven't already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoAbCgmhqdM
Enlightenment "Downsides"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N7A5kAESTQ
How Shinzen Broke Through an Addiction
1:45 "You spend the rest of your life refining yourself"

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 4:15 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Nice, thanks Richard!

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 4:18 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Mark:
Hi D,

This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.
I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then "did I watch the video?" answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.

I'll try to rephrase:

What do you think Shinzen is meaning by "sane grandiosity" in regards to ego ?

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/25/14 4:40 PM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
Dream Walker:
Mark:
Hi D,

This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.
I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then "did I watch the video?" answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.

I'll try to rephrase:

What do you think Shinzen is meaning by "sane grandiosity" in regards to ego ?
Link/time? I just watched it again and couldn't find the reference..

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/26/14 3:05 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Mark:
Dream Walker:
Mark:
Hi D,

This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.
I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then "did I watch the video?" answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.

I'll try to rephrase:

What do you think Shinzen is meaning by "sane grandiosity" in regards to ego ?
Link/time? I just watched it again and couldn't find the reference..

Oops, sorry I got confused. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CdP1gQBlvAE 5:28 is the cycling of self & no self

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbznm2NLais 2:14:30 is the sane grandiosity

He mentions the "sane grandiosity" is not to be taken too seriously (I am probably doing that). But the lead up to that remark seems to imply enlightened people using insights to bring about more effective change in the relative world (e.g. new medative technologies). That level of planning and projection seems to be different from the "in the now" attitude of some other interviews on BATGAP.

I've since learned that Shinzen considers stream entry to be enlightenment (he seems to have a gradual scale) so maybe the cycling of self is related to experience prior to 4th path ?

RE: Not to suppress his sense of self
Answer
8/26/14 9:10 AM as a reply to Mark.
Hi!
I think Shinzen's definiteion of Stream Entry includes more advanced realizations per this community's standards. his descriptions sound similar to descriptions of 4th path. He appears to be using the 10-fetters model in which 2nd and 3rd path are marked by emotional transformation culminating in the dissapearence of attachment and aversion and 4th path is marked by the dissapearence of the last subtle illusions. So totally different standards.

Also, in regards to living in the present vs. being able to think about the future, my sense from personal experience and conversations with people is that the only people who think there is a dichotomy there at all are not very awakened, if at all. It is self evident from the point of view of equalizing sensations that sensations that make up thoughts of the past and future are happening spontaneously right now.

**People who are trying to imagine what awakening looks like might imagine it involves no thoughts of future or past, no ability to plan, etc. but I don't know of anyone who claims to be awakened and also claims to be incapable of those things emoticon**