Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Practices Inspired by Actualism

My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice

话题 [ 上一个 | 下一个 ]
Hello forum,

I'd like to do a practice log on here to keep track of my thoughts and progress.  The core purpose of my practice is that I'm interested in "freedom" - whatever that term might mean as things change over time.  (This is the word I've used for a long time to describe my goal).  Right now, my main source of inspiration is the Actual Freedom Trust, so undoubtedly this thread will focus on that heavily.  This will probably read a bit differently from the meditation practice logs, but I hope some other people might find it useful, no matter what your practice might be.  If you see me working through an idea you've already figured out for yourself, I'd love to hear about it.

Right now I see myself in a phase of development where I'm unifying my beliefs and habits around the concept of trusting spontenaity by relying on tranquility.  As I go throughout the day, I keep an eye open for negative emotional reactions, and I challenge them with logic to justify themselves.  A lot of my methods have been inspired by cognitive behavioral theory.  I treat even the slightest mental disturbance as an "illness" that can be remedied through full understanding.

The way I've come to see the mind is that, for it to function smoothly and without stress, all beliefs and ideas need to be unified and complementary.  I believe emotional stress is a signal from the mind that two concepts are in conflict and need to be resolved.  Consider anxiety - it's a signal from the mind that we MUST remember something.  We must hold on to it or we'll lose track of it and then something bad will happen.  The logical resolution of this conflict is to find a way to trust ourselves and genuinely believe we have the ability to encounter any situation and deal with it appropriately in real time.

One of the ways I do this is through negative visualization.  When I feel like I'm grappling with anger or sadness or anxiety, I take some time to sit down with the cause and imagine myself encountering it calmly in real time.  I might imagine a group of people insulting me, or myself getting into a car accident, and I practice calming my reactions to these things.  As I've done this over time, I've seen that most of the things we see as specific problems are actually part of larger interrelated thought patterns that, once they are resolved, can remove whole chunks of stress from daily living.

Another way is what I was reffering to by relying on tranquility, where, as stressful situations present themselves, I allow myself to trust the spontenaity of the intellect to resolve things.  When emotions appear, I can usually see their cause fairly quickly, and I allow myself to accept the concequences of any failure.  I like to call this "throwing caution to the winds," or "living recklessly."  It works similarly to negative visualization in that the feelings are released by removing the concept of responsibility.  It seems reckless in real time because the emotions are there to remind us how we're supposed to act, but in hindsight the intellect proves itself, over and over, to be more caipable when it doesn't feel these reminders. This hindsight works directly to remove trust in emotional states and the intellect is free to function more and more without them.

********

So today I was thinking through a particular situation, and I was reminded of one of the important tennants of Actualism, which is that both nurture and malice are equally harmful in interpersonal relationships.  I was debating with a friend about an ethical dilema in a star trek episode (if you're interested, it was "Cogenitors" in the Enterprise series, haha), and I realized I was feeling an interesting mixture of malice towards him, since he was disagreeing with me, and the desire for him to understand, which was nurture.  I realized that this mixture was often present while I was explaining things to people, so I decided to give it a bit of an examination.

Thinking back, I can see that, not only was I feeling the emotions themselves, but I was also wishing I didn't feel them, and I had created a false tension in my mind that could only be resolved by a specific situation.  I had an imaginary scene that I was waiting for where he would suddenly understand what I was saying, and accept it in a deferential and grateful way.  Now, the interesting part to me is that this scene has never actually played out that way for me.  I can't remember a time where anyone has accepted an argument I was making at all, let alone in real time in a specific situation.  Obviously the only solution would be to remove that expectation.

So I set about considering how I might disable this imaginary scene, and I felt a ping-pong effect between both nurture and malice as I tried to make my mind understand that it could trust the actual moment of discussion, rather than expecting an imagined scene at the end.  The first idea it presented was to attempt to consider the wellbeing of the other person while talking.  This would diffuse the malice experienced due to my perception that the other person didn't understand.  The problem with this, though, is that it would still activate an urgency in the mind to teach other people my ideas, and this urgency is specifically what causes people to be defensive rather than open minded.  If my aim, in having a debate with someone, is to thoughtfully explain my own ideas and find the truth - even if I'm wrong, then all urgency and expectation must be removed.

From here my mind jumped to feelings of malice.  I realized I would have to "unilaterally disarm" myself because no one else could be expected to act this way, even if I had disabled my own offensive stance.  This malice was also directed at my own mind for being so sensitive to conflict.  Of course, both of these things are ridiculous.  There is no need for defence in a PCE because there is no malice in the mind.  Malice only needs malice to defend itself.  If there is none in the first place, there is no need for defense.

After this my feelings were resolved.  I realized that I could give myself permission to be wrong, and I could also give other people permission to be offensive towards me.  The mind wants to preserve its dignity and status, but those things have little value in the search for tranquility.  Most of all, I realized that the feeling that defense is needed in a conversation is absurd, and I can simply trust myself.  All of these things are obvious intellectually, of course, but the realizations themselves were more visceral.  I trusted I could end my thoughts about the situation because I no longer had any emotional reactions present.  I might practice later with some negative visualization - as this always "cements" these understandings.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-19 下午12:12 回复Not Tao。
I think I'm beginning to understand something about what virtual freedom might be. It isn't really a phase of development so much as a decision that is made. Each time I examine my worries, I understand that the only way to be free of them is to accept the worst. It feels like a betrayal, or like I'm turning my back on all of my responsibilities. The issue at the center of all of it is: can I trust myself completely? Can I allow this emotional control center to go offline, and just drift on the wind like a spore? As much as I want to say yes completely, my mind isn't yet on board fully.

Anger is part of this too. I've already seen a remarkable difference in how I actually FEEL about things, but many reactions are still in place. Whatever phase I'm in right now, it's dominated by the need to constantly remind myself to a few specific things:

- I can decide that I have all the time in the world. There is no urgency in anything.
- I can allow myself to be demeaned, degraded, judged, even destroyed. There is nothing I need to protect.
- I am not responsible for anyone. I can fail to meet their needs, and I can allow other people to have malice and anger, as long as I don't add my own.
- The main reason I can allow these things is because, at my core, I know I will spontaneously do what I believe is correct. I don't need to remind myself in advance or rehearse situations.

I feel a bit like a badly tuned radio. I will resolve an issue, then find it springing up again minutes later. It isn't tiring though because each time I see it limping back a little heavier. It almost feels like it's only a matter of time.

I'm going to start sitting in the mornings again. Just sitting and enjoying what's happening. It seems so much easier now than it used to, and I think it could do a lot of good.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-19 下午1:23 回复Not Tao。
Not Tao:
I think I'm beginning to understand something about what virtual freedom might be. It isn't really a phase of development so much as a decision that is made. Each time I examine my worries, I understand that the only way to be free of them is to accept the worst. It feels like a betrayal, or like I'm turning my back on all of my responsibilities. The issue at the center of all of it is: can I trust myself completely? Can I allow this emotional control center to go offline, and just drift on the wind like a spore? As much as I want to say yes completely, my mind isn't yet on board fully.

Have you figured out yet what the term "pure intent" refers to, experientially? It should be experientially evident, in the PCE, what it is, and you should be able to tap into it even outside of PCEs, once you get a handle on it. Pure intent is vital to making that decision to allow the emotional center to go offline.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-19 下午6:21 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
I looked that up to refresh my memory, and I think I might know what it's referring to.  Lately I keep getting this funny feeling that it's a holiday.  Everything seems to be kind of special.  Not really in any logical sense...it just seems like there is something special happening.  It's fairly easy to access it if I examine the feeling of time (does anything seem urgent ATM), and whether or not I feel something should be different.  If I can diffuse those, it just feels like chirstmas eve.  It does seem to be related to the PCE now I think about it... How does that description sound to you (in terms of pure intent)?


I also wanted to report something unusual.  I've been having some anxiety register as tension in my throat.  I've never had it happen like that in the past.  It feels kind of sore and tense - the same way it would normally feel in the chest.  If I pick through the feelings, the tension will go, but old habits die hard, as they say, so its going to take some more work to dismantle them completely.  In some ways it's a slight improvement because the emotional component is very muted.  Dismantling the emotional cause feels more intellectual - in the heart area, it feels like I need to abandon something important.  In the throat it just takes a bit of logical reasoning.

This phenomena kind of reminds me of the chakras though.  They say all myths are based on reality.  The chakras seem to be representation points for emotions.  Hard to say if there's any use for them, though.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-20 下午12:15 回复Not Tao。
Not Tao:
I looked that up to refresh my memory, and I think I might know what it's referring to.  Lately I keep getting this funny feeling that it's a holiday.  Everything seems to be kind of special.  Not really in any logical sense...it just seems like there is something special happening.  It's fairly easy to access it if I examine the feeling of time (does anything seem urgent ATM), and whether or not I feel something should be different.  If I can diffuse those, it just feels like chirstmas eve.  It does seem to be related to the PCE now I think about it... How does that description sound to you (in terms of pure intent)?

Hmm I'm not sure but you might be headed in the right direction. The thing to keep in mind about pure intent is that it is actual, it is outside of 'me' - it is present in a PCE, and when actually free. What you describe above seems like it might more be a feeling - of something special about to happen or of a generally positive disposition - than something actual. However the act of noticing and tapping into and allowing pure intent does tend to lead to felicitous feelings as a result - or even perhaps that ambiance you relate above. So maybe you did tap into pure intent, but mistook the effect (everything seeming kind of special) for the cause (pure intent).

Something that might help is that felicitous feelings are the closest affective imitation to the PCE. The way Richard devised the actualism method was to imitate the actual as close as possible: "The ‘I’ that used to inhabit this body did everything possible that ‘I’ could do to blatantly imitate the actual in that ‘I’ endeavoured to be happy and harmless for as much as is humanly possible." [link]

Not Tao:
I also wanted to report something unusual.  I've been having some anxiety register as tension in my throat.  I've never had it happen like that in the past.  It feels kind of sore and tense - the same way it would normally feel in the chest.  If I pick through the feelings, the tension will go, but old habits die hard, as they say, so its going to take some more work to dismantle them completely.  In some ways it's a slight improvement because the emotional component is very muted.  Dismantling the emotional cause feels more intellectual - in the heart area, it feels like I need to abandon something important.  In the throat it just takes a bit of logical reasoning.

Hmm that's interesting. When did that start happening? Did anything change around that time? Maybe it's a new set of anxieties, or an old set that has resurfaced.

Not Tao:
This phenomena kind of reminds me of the chakras though.  They say all myths are based on reality.  The chakras seem to be representation points for emotions.  Hard to say if there's any use for them, though.

There is a clear link between chakras and emotions, and chakras can definitely be experienced... they disappear in the PCE though don't they?

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-20 下午4:29 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
Interesting that the list in the link you posted puts sincerity at the top. I think that's what I was talking about with the idea that freedom is a choice rather than a stage. You just decide that nothing is worth upsetting the mind. So far it's been important to see, in real time, why each problem is not worth it, but as time goes by here, the reasons themselves are whittling down to what I think you would call Pure Intent. It's kind of like a memory of the PCE where I suddenly see the divide between the emotion and the reality of the situation, and the emotion seems tacked on and unhelpful. The holiday type feeling comes after this, so I must be talking about "felicity" with that. It is a feeling, definitely. I didn't realize pure intent was referencing something seen in the PCE.

As for chakras, I think the best definition of the PCE might be that they are finally gone without a trace (along with suddenly having all the time you'd ever need).

The ‘I’ that used to inhabit this body did everything possible that ‘I’ could do to blatantly imitate the actual in that ‘I’ endeavoured to be happy and harmless for as much as is humanly possible. This was achieved by putting everything on a ‘it doesn’t really matter’ basis. That is, ‘I’ would prefer people, things and events to be a particular way, but if it did not turn out like that ... it did not really matter for it was only a preference.


This is it for me - removing the urgency from things. Anything that could happen, be it I hurt someone else, they hurt me, I am insulted, I am angered, the world is ending, life is unstable - in the end, the only thing that makes these things stressful is the fact that they "matter". Once the mind is granted permission to be the worst, the lowest, bad, wrong, broken, etc, etc, then it can be free of the urgency behind any of the things it thinks, and it's free to be happy and harmless.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-21 上午3:29 回复Not Tao。
Hey Not Tao,

I originally posted a reply to your notes with some notes, I've decided to reproduce it here:


RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-24 下午11:30 回复Not Tao。
This is a slight update to the list I posted earlier, but I've whittled it down to something snappier I can ask myself on a regular basis.

Do you feel a sense of urgency?
Are you comfortable in the space around you?
Does your social standing seem threatened?

I think these are the only things that stop me from being completely content all the time.  Urgency is the cause of impatience, worry, and boredom - it feels like there isn't enough time to do things.  Being uncomfortable is the cause of tenseness, agitation, anxiety - it feels like the body is physically cringing away from the world around it.  A threatened social standing is the cause of anger, jealousy, or malice in general - there's a strong motivation to put people in their place. EDIT: Social standing plays a big role in shame and guilt too. If I let go of my superiority, I can allow myself to be wrong or to look stupid.  I don't have to watch what I say because it doesn't matter what people think of me.

Each time these come up, there's a specific feeling that can counter them.  It feels a bit like giving up in a good way.  I think I can understand why Richard talks about "self-sacrifice".  I'm not a very altruistic person, so I didn't understand that turn of phrase before, but it seems more and more to be along those lines.  Like taking yourself out of the game, or slowly dying without losing your body.  There are very deep changes that seem to be possible in terms of directly modifying the personality.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-9-26 下午12:04 回复Not Tao。
I am going to start going through the jhanas again each morning.  (I'm posting here to help keep myself honest, lol.)  If I'm looking back at the last year or so, at the time I was having the most PCEs, I was spending a lot of time in contemplation during the day.

I'll be more specific about what I was doing though.  I came to call what I was doing jhana because it seemed to fit the descriptions in the suttas, but I never spent much effort concentrating.  Mostly what I did was let go of everything, and allow myself to enjoy the moment as it was.  This would lead naturaly to the progression of altered states like bliss and equanimity. My main interest in practicing now will be to find the PCE, which I do think has a relationship to contemplation (Richard mentions this in a few places as well).  I'm considering this an experiment, so I'll keep notes here for myself (and whoever is reading this) to reference later. emoticon

EDIT: I think a better practice will be to commit to "sitting" each morning.  The jhanas, in particular, can come if they like, but I'm not too fond of sitting still, which always was a requierment in the past for me to reach them, haha.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-5 上午1:46 回复Not Tao。
Something interesting I've noticed about my three questions is that, when I am feeling seriously about one of them, it can be a huge relief to purposefully adopt an attitude that is negatively indulgent.  For example, when there is a sense of urgency, I let myself feel that it's impossible to succeed, and I have no hope.  When I feel uncomfortable, I let myself revel in the grime or the pain of a situation (a bit like picking a scab, I suppose, haha).  When I feel like someone is trying to cut me down to size, I take their side and treat myself like an opposing team in a sports match.  This way of thinking is incredibly cathartic.  When I remember to do it, there is an instant release of all seriousness.

I suppose I should emphasize that the main purpose is to see things humorously.  I think seriousness is probably the only enemy of contentment.  It's a trusting and humorous attitute that brings tranquility.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-7 上午1:35 回复Not Tao。
I'm in the midst of the first PCE I've had in a long time.  I think I've been a bit off track trying to sort through the emotions on a logical level.  I've been playing with this idea of letting go of control, and just now, after just a few minutes of purposefully stopping my resistance to all emotions, thoughts, moods, and feelings, I dropped into the PCE.  I wasn't feeling very felicitous or even happy at the time, which is interesting.  It's more like the emotional center just disipated completely.  Everythig feels completely effortless - which is telling, I think, because the way I entered this state was by becoming effortless.  I'm going to try practicing this way exclusively for a while and see where it goes.  Back in May when I was spending almost every day in this state, I was basically doing the same thing.

If anyone reading this is interested in what I did exactly (I'm sure my future self will be highly interested, haha), the best way I can explain it is, I stoped trying to do anything.  Maybe you could call it radical acceptance, letting go...you know, I think my taoist is showing - this is probably wu wei.

EDIT: Here I am again today!  I think I lied a bit yesterday.  There were felicitous feelings before the PCE, but they were just a little blip as things flipped over.  Right now I just feel very happy and cheerful.  The key is definitely making peace with the emotions.  I was trying too hard before, all that's really required is to open up to them in a raw and naked way.  Dismantling the triggers is very important as well, as that's what causes the negativity to go.  I can't make it go, though.  It has to be that the mind finds peace with the belief.  Logic and observation really is key for that.  Back in May, my contentment was part of these dramatic emotional shifts, and I think the reason is that radical acceptance addresses the issue of control - you stop trying to suppress the emotions - but it doesn't address the issue of cause.  The PCE can still happen, but it's somewhat unstable because the triggers are only being ignored or dealt with subconsciously.

This feeling really is incredible, though.  Everything is just tingling with happiness. emoticon

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-8 上午2:39 回复Not Tao。
I've noticed that, when the mind encounters something it doesn't want to think about, there's a snapping sensation and the mind puts a barrier around it.  This barrier seems to be the direct cause of the negative emotions.  Specifically recalling the thought that caused the process can diffuse the whole thing pretty quickly.

EDIT: Actually, this is kind of an interesting practice.  I spent some time narrating every feeling that came into my head.  This might be similar to noting, ha!  It went something like this, "I should be working.  It feels good to relax, though.  I shouldn't agrue with myself.  I like this idea.  I'm good at coming up with ideas.  I shouldn't be so conceited.  It's good to have self esteem, though."  As each one came up, it had a little voice.  It felt like empyting a queue to let them each say their piece.

EDIT2: I just had a major breakthrough!  I've been dealing with a lot of uncertanty about my job lately, and I've had a little bubble of anxiety about it reappearing over the last month or two.  I've been able to let go of it somewhat, but it's been persistent.  Just now, I realized that my fear of driving has been the actual anxiety.  I'm not afraid of trying to find a new job, I'm afraid I might have to start driving regularly in the near future.  Right now I work at home, and my partner does all the shopping, so it's been easy for me to avoid working through the phobia.  I think it's time to conquer this thing, though.

This is interesting...  I was using the pathway toward the anxiety - uncertainty about work - to block myself from having to think about the problem itself - my fear of driving.  It's amazing how tricky the mind can be!

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-9 上午3:15 回复Not Tao。
When that snapping sensation occurs (it's suppression, really), and I intentionally think about the thought that caused it, there is a point in there where I've seen I can intentionally pluck the emotion from the thought and get rid of it.  The snapping sensation is a kind of recoil, where the "guts" or "heart" almost feel like they're trying to run away from the thought. Sometimes I need to rethink the thought a few times because the recoil is so automatic. The recoil manifests as a really wide range of negative emotions, so I'm almost tempted to say it IS the emotional center itself.

Plucking the emotion off is basically just a decision. It's very important that the true cause is seen clearly, though. In the past I think I've tried to do this when I haven't seen the causes clearly, and it just ends up making the feeling worse. Some of the emotions are very sneaky. The most difficult one for me to detect is a physical tension that seems to build up over time and I slowly recoil from the environment I'm in.  It's related to two things, I think - one is that I don't want to damange anything, and another is that I don't want to make anything dirty.  I'm pretty sure this one has been with me since childhood, and I'm always amazed how easy it is to get rid of it when I remember to check for it.  I need to keep a close watch on that and also whether I feel like I'm pressed for time.

A list of things I'm currently working through and how I'm working on them:
- Fear of driving - negative visualization / plucking the emotion from it's cause
- Fear of spiders - essentially cured, but occasional negative visualization to reinforce the good habit
- Sense of urgency - simply noticing it is usually enough to diffuse it (if it goes on, I look for hidden causes)
- Physical Discomfort - I try to embed myself within my environment, touching surfaces and occupying space
- Anger - this is where plucking off the emotions is very effective - it's easy to see anger coming.

EDIT: It's interested, there's always been this dichotomy in my practice.  On the one side, there is the letting go of control, and on the other side, there is this intentional modification of beliefs to affect mood.  Sometimes it's difficult to know which one to work with at what time.  For example, surrendering to anger does not seem to work for me, but I've had lots of success specifically changing habits. My anxiety has causes, but they're more difficult to understand sometimes, and in these instances, simply letting go seems to work better. Perhaps that's telling though. If the anxiety is caused by vigilance - trying to see the mind-state clearly - then stopping that vigilance is more useful.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-10 上午7:13 回复Not Tao。
Aha!  I think I'm finally getting a grasp on this.  This "plucking" I mentioned must be what Richard refers to as "nipping in the bud".  Actually, it seems a lot of things are coming together today.  As I keep a watch on how I feel right now, I can see these emotions starting up.  They're very insistent.  But each time I see them starting, I just decide not to keep going down that path.  I wish I could find a better way to explain this, I just know I'm going to forget how to do it, haha... Maybe it's like this, the emotion feels like a little bubble starting. It's a pressure somewhere in the body. When it starts inflating, pop it. Think the thought that caused the emotion a few times, and remove the emotion manually. It's exactly the same thing that I used to deal with my fear of spiders. I would look at pictures of spiders, feel the fear rising, and then stop the fear dead because I didn't want to feel that way anymore.

As a note to my future self, if you're having a hard time of things, don't sit around trying to accept your anxiety.  Go distract yourself and get out of the emotion ASAP.  Then, when it comes back, you can see it forming and figure it out there.  In the end, it's all about deciding that, even if it seems completely justified to feel an emotion, you simply aren't going to accept living that way anymore. You have to change your mind about these things, they're not going to go away until you no longer see a need for them.

Maybe using that "escape hatch" a la Earhart Tolle is good for this - come back to the present and ignore the emotional quality. Then when it's toned down, face the cause and remove the emotional judgement from it. The method is to be happy and harmless right now, no other time.

EDIT: As a side note, I've been getting strange pressures in different "chakra areas" of the body as I work through these things.  It almost feels like the pressure from the heart area moves into the throat and then up into the third eye area. It can get very strong there if I pay any attention to it. The funny thing is, if I rub my forehead to make the feeling go away, the lump appears in my throat again. I've had some success treating it as an emotion and nipping it in the bud when I see it coming on, so I think it must be some kind of emotionally related habit.

EDIT2: I should mention that this thing I'm talking about is definitely not a kind of suppression. I think the initial clenching that happens when an unwanted emotion appears is the suppression. When I ease the clenching, the emotion arises along with the thoughts that trigger it, and that's when I stop the emotion and allow the thought to continue. It's really as simple as making the decision not to continue it - I think that's the best I can do for explanation.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-11 上午7:03 回复Not Tao。
If something is a legitimate concern or reason to be angry, Instead of trying to reason it away as not serious, it's better to accept that it is seen as serious and allow that, itself to be the thought that gets through. It isn't the urgency or even the importance of a thing that causes the problem, it's the feeling of responsibility or ownership that goes with it. The weight of any thought comes from how much I wish it didn't exist. Allowing discordant thoughts to come through will relieve the tension because they don't need to be avoided.

It's a tricky thing, though, separating the emotion from the thought. Letting them both through can mire me in a feeling until I purposefully distract myself. Distraction really does work though - I need to use that more when things get tough.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-11 下午6:18 回复Not Tao。
Here's a thought: try to feel the emotion with the notion in mind that it signifies nothing, and that it doesn't really matter whether it is "legitimate" or not. it is just a bit of energy that is "trapped outside of life." it doesn't need to be seen as wrong and it doesn't need to be seen as right, it is just a superfluous disturbance. the feeling sticks around if you effortfully try to move away from it in the direction opposite it (because you think it is illegitimate), or if you cling to it and believe it is important (for keeping you motivated to deal with xyz). the emotion fades if you don't even consider whether it is leading you in the right direction or not, and you simply stay focused on the idea that it is unnecessary (because you can just act however the situation requires without it there) and unpleasant. i wouldn't even necessarily think that perception out in your head, i would rather just stay steady in the knowledge that that is true and thus be aware of the emotion without concerning yourself with its legitimacy.

trying to reason away stuff is basically just expressing the emotion i have found, better to not even give it a hint of importance which would be given to it by asking the question of whether it is legitimate or not. ultimately emotions may very well be leading you to the action that you would have taken if you were unemotional, or they may be leading you to do the opposite, but you don't really know which is the case with this particular emotion (and it is only by ruminating more that you can attempt to find out, and fail to do so.)

I have found myself oscillating between either trying to get rid of emotions by reasoning them away or trying to get rid of them by simply giving them 0 significance. for a while i didn't even realize these were two different things, but lately i think i have been mostly using the second option to good effect.

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-12 下午1:04 回复Adam . .。
Some good points.  I think you're right to point out that the legitimacy isn't so important sometimes.  The fact is, there's a feeling, and the feeling is sucky.  Knowing where it comes from is helpful if it really is somethign silly (like a phobia) because you can drop it very quickly.  Those aren't so difficult to get rid of with a little practice, though.

I think the goal is to become very receptive without dwelling.  Trying to logic the feelings away is just fighting with yourself if you really do see it as something important, and that's just as bad as sitting around  trying to accept the thing for hours.  Instead, it seems like you can go around the whole thing by just giving it as little attention and importance as possible.

That said, if it really is something silly, you can save a lot of time by letting go of it right away.  I have a physical tension that builds up over time that I can just let go of if I realize it's happening - same with fear of spiders or driving.  I just need to understand what it is and then it drops away instantly.  I've been able to get ot this same place with more legitimate fears as well, if I can really see that they aren't useful.  This is one of the reasons I spent time going down that route.  Maybe it's more effort that it's worth, though.  It hasn't given me consistent results.

EDIT: Actually, this is good, I don't think there's such a big difference.  You're basically saying to treat the whole emotional package the way I've been treating the phobias.  I can look at emotions themselves as the unnessicary component - just like with spiders, I didn't need to figure out if some spiders were poisonous and others were harmless, I just dropped the whole thing because it's the FEAR that's silly.  I can still run away from a poisonous spider without being afraid of it

So I don't need to reason out if this emotion is justified and that isn't, I simply need to realize that the whole emotional core is beyond help and toss it all out.  Basically what Richard says - we're rotten to the core, haha.  I'm staring to see how this could work. emoticon

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-12 下午9:21 回复Not Tao。
Not Tao:
Some good points.  I think you're right to point out that the legitimacy isn't so important sometimes.  The fact is, there's a feeling, and the feeling is sucky.  Knowing where it comes from is helpful if it really is somethign silly (like a phobia) because you can drop it very quickly.  Those aren't so difficult to get rid of with a little practice, though.

I think the goal is to become very receptive without dwelling.  Trying to logic the feelings away is just fighting with yourself if you really do see it as something important, and that's just as bad as sitting around  trying to accept the thing for hours.  Instead, it seems like you can go around the whole thing by just giving it as little attention and importance as possible.

That said, if it really is something silly, you can save a lot of time by letting go of it right away.  I have a physical tension that builds up over time that I can just let go of if I realize it's happening - same with fear of spiders or driving.  I just need to understand what it is and then it drops away instantly.  I've been able to get ot this same place with more legitimate fears as well, if I can really see that they aren't useful.  This is one of the reasons I spent time going down that route.  Maybe it's more effort that it's worth, though.  It hasn't given me consistent results.

EDIT: Actually, this is good, I don't think there's such a big difference.  You're basically saying to treat the whole emotional package the way I've been treating the phobias.  I can look at emotions themselves as the unnessicary component - just like with spiders, I didn't need to figure out if some spiders were poisonous and others were harmless, I just dropped the whole thing because it's the FEAR that's silly.  I can still run away from a poisonous spider without being afraid of it

So I don't need to reason out if this emotion is justified and that isn't, I simply need to realize that the whole emotional core is beyond help and toss it all out.  Basically what Richard says - we're rotten to the core, haha.  I'm staring to see how this could work. emoticon

Your journal is very interesting, I'm looking forward to future posts. There were some issues that I was able to absolve completely using methods like just not going there with an emotion and essentially accepting whatever. For instance, for a while I had issues with my girlfriend talking to her male friends or other guys in general. Eventually I just dropped the need to go down that path and the emotions dissolved over time (a few years later, I never have any of those issues). Unfortunately this hasn't seemed to work for all sorts emotional pain for me as of yet. For example, I have a phobia of public speaking that is very sticky because the feelings are simply so strong that I know if I just forced myself to do it unmedicated (I take propranolol for this) the outcome could be legitimately embarrassing.  

RE: My Stoic Taoist Psychotheaputic Actual Freedom Practice
答复
14-10-12 下午9:43 回复Elijah Smith。
"I think the goal is to become very receptive without dwelling.  Trying to logic the feelings away is just fighting with yourself if you really do see it as something important, and that's just as bad as sitting around  trying to accept the thing for hours.  Instead, it seems like you can go around the whole thing by just giving it as little attention and importance as possible."

Best Advice Ever