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New Moderation Policy

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New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-28 下午8:38
Please note, due to recent events, that the moderation policy has been changed. In particular, this section has been added to the front page of the DhO:
To help keep the place more inviting of participation by those who can benefit from helpful friends supporting friends in their practices and sharing the intimate and deep adventures that these explorations can produce, the following ground rules have been adopted:
  • No name-calling or ad hominem attacks
  • No on-and-on repetitious, angry rants that marshal no supporting evidence, target an interlocutor, and have the effect of intimidating the interlocutor.
  • No threats of violence, even if metaphorical or aimed at no one in particular
  • No taunting, mocking, or intimidation of an individual or a group on the basis of race/ethnicity, sex, disability (including mental illness), sexual orientation, religious preference, or spiritual practice
  • No speech acts that would be actionable under US criminal or civil torte law 

When in doubt, ask, "Is this helpful and conducive to clarity, wisdom, and the alleviation of suffering?"

The intent is that the mods will now take a more active role, when needed, to maintain a basic level of civility on the site.

Cheers,
Beoman Claudiu Mod Emu Fire Golem

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-28 下午11:20 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
Hi Beoman,

Like the new rules.

Just a small typo to correct for the front page: "civil torte law" should be "civil tort law", unless you are referring to cake law emoticon.

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-28 下午11:57 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
The intent is that the mods will now take a more active role, when needed, to maintain a basic level of civility on the site.

Cheers,
Beoman Claudiu Mod Emu Fire Golem

Here is a thanks for a thankless job...Thanks

Requests-
Perhaps list the Mods and contact procedure after the rules so new people know how to contact/lodge a complaint...does the flag button work?
Please update the list of Moderators here - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/DhO+Management+and+Moderators
Could you explain the active role? What are the various actions that will happen to violators of policy? This should be published near the rules too for clarity. When a person is banned/unbanned will this be known to the general populace?
~D

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-29 上午8:30 回复Dream Walker。
Agree... good points. 

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-29 上午10:43 回复Dream Walker。
Dream Walker:

Requests-
Perhaps list the Mods and contact procedure after the rules so new people know how to contact/lodge a complaint...does the flag button work?

I'm not sure. I'll flag my post and see if I get any notification.
Dream Walker:
Could you explain the active role? What are the various actions that will happen to violators of policy? This should be published near the rules too for clarity.

Florian has added this section:

The Moderators will warn and, as a second step ban posters who are absolutely not willing to respect these rules. You can contact the moderators by using the Messaging system


Dream Walker:
When a person is banned/unbanned will this be known to the general populace?

Mods responsible for moderation will post warnings & ban notices in offending threads. As for unbanning.. I'm not sure, stay tuned.

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-29 下午1:49 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Dream Walker:

Requests-
Perhaps list the Mods and contact procedure after the rules so new people know how to contact/lodge a complaint...does the flag button work?

I'm not sure. I'll flag my post and see if I get any notification.

Hi Beoman,

I sent you a private message regarding flag notifications.

Simon

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-29 下午6:31 回复Simon Ekstrand。
"Who will watch the watchmen?"

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-29 下午7:12 回复William Golden Finch。
William Golden Finch:
"Who will watch the watchmen?"


Daniel does. And no doubt the vocal among you will voice concern if Daniel is seen out of line as well. We all watch eachother. 

Being a mod with divine eye would be pretty cool. 


Nick

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-30 上午12:49 回复carrot top。
carrot top:
Hi Beoman,

Like the new rules.

Just a small typo to correct for the front page: "civil torte law" should be "civil tort law", unless you are referring to cake law emoticon.
Didn't you get the memo? This site will now be exclusively about the culinary arts. Any topics not about cooking or baking will be closed accompanied by a harangue using extremely abusive language. This should foster a sense of community in those brave, noble souls who remain. 

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-30 上午1:25 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
So we can use phrases like the following German idioms (derived from the sphere of eat/drink)?

1) "Ist mir wurst!"
literally: "It's sausage to me." i.e. What do I care?

2) Use of "Gemuese" literally "vegetables", to mean garbage, inane, of no consequence

Wikipedia:
"Gemüse n (genitiveGemüses, pluralGemüse)
  1. vegetable
  2. (mildly offensive) A person whose brain has been severely damaged."

How about brewing, in addition to cooking and baking?

3) "Ist nicht mein Bier!"
litarally: "it's not my beer." i.e. similar to above (1).

Also, at the extreme:

4) "Ist zum koetzen" -- "makes me want to vomit"


All best with a little added mustard and metta...

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-30 上午2:08 回复Nikolai .。
Nikolai .:
William Golden Finch:
"Who will watch the watchmen?"


Daniel does. And no doubt the vocal among you will voice concern if Daniel is seen out of line as well. We all watch eachother. 

Being a mod with divine eye would be pretty cool. 


Nick

Being one of those more vocal amongst you, I am glad this point is taken (as I have made it recently...). Mods (including Daniel).need to "lead by example". Ad-hominen attacks begat ad-hominen attacks and so on. Part of the culture of "hardcore dharma" is this idea that we need to "call people on their bullshit" and expose "shadow sides". Whether this has value or not or is on target or not, it is my estimation that the need to do so (especially in a public forum) is normally pretty well entangled with the own shadow side of the person doing the calling. And it isn't conducive with an atmosphere of civility that the DhO needs at is core if you want this diverse bunch of people to get along with each other. Which means you can't have your torte and eat it too. And there has to be room for doubt and regret, as otherwise you can justify pretty much any action against another ("tough love", "for the benefit of the community" etc...). But basically, everyone has to play nice, and this is a step in the right direction. 

And since half the mods aren't on the site any more, perhaps room for vacancies? I will think about it *-). But Katy gets my vote!

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-30 上午5:27 回复sawfoot _。
sawfoot _:
Nikolai .:
William Golden Finch:
"Who will watch the watchmen?"


Daniel does. And no doubt the vocal among you will voice concern if Daniel is seen out of line as well. We all watch eachother. 

Being a mod with divine eye would be pretty cool. 


Nick


And since half the mods aren't on the site any more, perhaps room for vacancies? I will think about it *-). But Katy gets my vote!

That needs to be updated by Daniel when he has time. he is on holiday overseas atm. 

Our current active mods are:

Florian
Katy
Nikolai
Jen
Beoman Emu

I asked Daniel to consider more. He'll decide. 

Nick

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-9-30 下午1:54 回复Dream Walker。
Dream Walker:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
The intent is that the mods will now take a more active role, when needed, to maintain a basic level of civility on the site.

Cheers,
Beoman Claudiu Mod Emu Fire Golem

Here is a thanks for a thankless job...Thanks

Requests-
Perhaps list the Mods and contact procedure after the rules so new people know how to contact/lodge a complaint...does the flag button work?
Please update the list of Moderators here - http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/DhO+Management+and+Moderators
Could you explain the active role? What are the various actions that will happen to violators of policy? This should be published near the rules too for clarity. When a person is banned/unbanned will this be known to the general populace?
~D

Dreamwalker,

Daniel is in and out because on vacation, but I wrote up a template of headings and subheadings for a more complete Code of Conduct section and Vision/Mission section. I agree that reporting and enforcement protocols need to be clear, consistently followed, and transparently communicated out to the membership. So maybe more to come when Daniel is back and has a chance to make decisions and implement.

Jenny

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-1 下午4:49 回复_。
Jenny:
Dreamwalker,

Daniel is in and out because on vacation, but I wrote up a template of headings and subheadings for a more complete Code of Conduct section and Vision/Mission section. I agree that reporting and enforcement protocols need to be clear, consistently followed, and transparently communicated out to the membership. So maybe more to come when Daniel is back and has a chance to make decisions and implement.

Jenny
Speaking of vision and mission, although I think the new rules are a step in the right direction as I stated above, I do have some member concerns about how we enforce our enforcement protocols.

It feels like if we try to force people to be nicer to other then it means we lose out what this place is really about. It could end up being just another "Awake Network", and who would want that. After all, this is a place for hardcore meditation practice.

I think Daniel has to take the lead here:

Oh, yes, a brief warning. I should mention that I am hardcore, into hardcore practice, into very hard-hitting dharma, and sometimes I let it out with both barrels. This seems to happen more when I talk on the phone with people, which I do on occasion, but it also happens in emails at times. I expect people to be self-reliant to a high degree, and projections both negative and positive tend to piss me off. I probably should be more understanding, but clearly at times am not. If it happens with you and you are sure nothing good came of it, my apologies, but at least you were warned.From <http://integrateddaniel.info/contact/>

And so by being nice to each other, aren't we going to miss out on the possibilities of that very hard-hitting dharma that Daniel describes, truly "heavy dharma"?

One possibility is that we have a little flag next to a username. This could something simple as a wallet (echoing Jule's wallet with the inscription "Bad M***** F*****" from the well-known film written and directed by Quentin Tarantino called "Pulp Fiction") or perhaps a picture of a skull and crossbones, with the skull wearing a cowboy hat, inspired by a description of Daniel here:
He does not claim to have any special knowledge of how to live skillfully in the conventional world, but has found that a positive attitude, non-pretentious kindness, and a sense of humor will take you a long way. If you imagine that you want to bust out some hardcore practice but are in fact just looking for a daddy, shrink, social worker, or someone to help you prop up your self-esteem, Daniel is unlikely at this stage in his development to be the best person to help you meet your needs. He considers himself to be one badass Dharma Cowboy and prefers similar company or at least those who aspire to be so.
From <http://batgap.com/daniel-ingram/>

That way, if some pisses you off, and you decide to let it out with both barrels, then at least they would have been given some fair warning.

And as for shadow sides, as I mentioned above with the new rules, it seems like it would compromise real hardcore dharma if we don't get people to call them on it. Again Daniel takes the lead here:
Daniel is an extroverted Gen X intellectual. He is known for his pronounced enthusiasm, lip-flapping, grandiosity, eccentricity, and calling people on their stuff and shadow sides regardless of whether or not this is helpful or even accurate. 
But then again, perhaps if we are able to give the people that piss us off "both barrels" with a positive attitude, non-pretentious kindness, and a sense of humor, and this is transparently communicated, then it would be ok? 

Thoughts from my mods?

Sawfoot_  AKA "The Violator"

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-1 下午4:47 回复sawfoot _。
My book and this forum are not the same thing. Your odd logic relates to helping people and yourself to reduce suffering how?

Daniel

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-1 下午10:18 回复Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem。
New policy but noone addressed abusing of moderation privileges in the process.
Guess we're just gonna forget bout that...

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-1 下午10:29 回复ftw。
ftw:
New policy but noone addressed abusing of moderation privileges in the process.
Guess we're just gonna forget bout that...
The general rule is: if a mod is involved in a thread as a participant, then you have to get another mod to moderate it, just as if they were another participant. That should address most concerns no?

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-2 上午2:36 回复sawfoot _。
It's confusing trying to reconcile the talk of 'hardcore', 'being pissed-off,' 'shadow side,' 'both barrels,' etc. with the time-honored (too traditional, ideal?) notion of focusing on words and views, rather than persons; and ways of coaxing those caught in personal or ad-hominem fixations to discern the difference.

To use another traditonal tack, discussion groups are by nature 'a thicket of views,' and arahantship was associated (e.g. Visudhimagga) with abandoning the 'canker of views,' etc. But views, like other fabrications, such as models, maps, etc. also comprise the rafts used by those of us not yet arrived to navigate towards the other shore.

Complication, and perhaps contextual risk, so to speak, is that much of the interplay here does deal with personal stuff, by necessity, or at least by design.

"…a positive attitude, non-pretentious kindness, … a sense of humor, and … transparently communicated…" does sound reasonable, if challenging.

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-3 上午1:18 回复Chris J Macie。
Chris J Macie:
It's confusing trying to reconcile the talk of 'hardcore', 'being pissed-off,' 'shadow side,' 'both barrels,' etc. with the time-honored (too traditional, ideal?) notion of focusing on words and views, rather than persons; and ways of coaxing those caught in personal or ad-hominem fixations to discern the difference.

To use another traditonal tack, discussion groups are by nature 'a thicket of views,' and arahantship was associated (e.g. Visudhimagga) with abandoning the 'canker of views,' etc. But views, like other fabrications, such as models, maps, etc. also comprise the rafts used by those of us not yet arrived to navigate towards the other shore.

Complication, and perhaps contextual risk, so to speak, is that much of the interplay here does deal with personal stuff, by necessity, or at least by design.

"…a positive attitude, non-pretentious kindness, … a sense of humor, and … transparently communicated…" does sound reasonable, if challenging.
That last part is absolutely reasonable, and it is challenging.

But isn't this just a place for discussing meditation practice?! It seems like a nice simple idea...but life is complicated...

I think it does make sense to consider a discussion forum like this a "raft". And my assumption is that everyone here still has a need for that raft, as no-one has yet "arrived". We are all in the same boat. 

RE: New Moderation Policy
答复
14-10-3 上午2:22 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Daniel M. Ingram:
My book and this forum are not the same thing. 
One of the quotes was from your website discussing how you respond to questions you don't like (verbally or via email). And it seemed pretty indicative on your vision of what the "hardcore" in "hardcore dharma" is all about. The other is a bio about yourself from a recent interview, which I am guessing was written by yourself, and also quite indicative on your vision of "hardcore dharma", in your embodiment of it and setting of an example. Neither was directly related to your book (though they obviously greatly inform your book). 
Daniel M. Ingram:
Your odd logic relates to helping people and yourself to reduce suffering how?
It is a simple question really - how do you reconcile being nice and being hardcore? Can you have both? I suggest not. So which one do you want? You can't have your torte...etc

The logic of your response to this issue in this reply, as far as I can tell, is "I do more to help people reduce their suffering than you, therefore, I am better/I win".

I think my logic is pretty straightforward, but I will spell it out again. It seems clear to me that a lot of the recent and past problems on this site (e.g. people enjoying people getting hit with both barrels, and the blasting of people with those barrels) stem from inherent problems in the culture surrounding it. People (both users and mods) have justified their suffering-causing behaviour because they believe they are acting in the vision of what this place is all about, a place for "hardcore dharma" and "hardcore practice". As this is your site, it feels like you need to take some responsbility for that vision. And that vision, or more favourably, the distortion of that vision, causes suffering. Exposing and opening up for discussion the contradictions and problematic aspects of that vision (or its distorted aspects) may be helpful in reconciling some of those problems and moving forward (and reducing suffering in the future), as having a stricter moderation policy doesn't really get at the root causes.