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The Middle Paths (2nd and 3rd)

The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 11:50 AM
I was inspired by Tom Tom's practise thread.
It seems to be getting hijacked a bit and I also want to jump in and chat about his practise....but I feel that since I am not fourth path that anything I say will just be more hijacking stuff....So here is a solution that lets me yammer on and not feel bad.

There are very few 3rd path to 4th path theads on the Dho. I would be very interested in what people are doing to get to 4th.

Tom Tom, what are you doing in what order and for how long...On cushion and off cushion? ( I realized I have been pretty lax with myself across the board compared to earlier paths esp. concentration exercises)
Tom Tom:
Most of my investigation during sits has been going toward investigation of the sensations in and around the neck and the subtle dualities between these and thoughts.  The main investigation has been the impermanence of these sensations, but a few sits have gone towards the unsatisfactory (dukkha) nature of them.  

Analysis off cushion has been toward a continuous dissection of agency.  A subtle sense of agency seems to be all that is left, and as I have stated, I experience no sense of time.

Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention. Investigation of neck sensations has been a priority, but this does not seem to exclude the other sensations much. There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

I've noticed that a lack of attention does not seem to mean I lack the ability to tune things out if I'm not listening.  For example, if I'm reading and people are talking I won't always know what they're saying since the focus is on what I'm reading and not what the people are saying.  I've been looking at this, and strangely, I tend to hear some jumble of sounds but it is not processed in a way that makes it understandable if the "focus" is on something else.  Whether this constitutes some form of attention or not I'm not sure.

A kick to the left-over sense of agency is my top priority and since sitting I have noticed some significant diminishment in agency when not on the cushion.  I'm still not where I want to be in terms of a 100% lack of agency, but I seem to be getting closer (quantitatively, it's currently at about 85%).   To what extent some remaining sense of attention may be creating some small sense of agency is also a consideration and is an additional thing I'll be analyzing in future sits.

The Attention thing is interesting, as is Focus, Choosing etc....they all seem to combine to create the illusion of agency. I have been playing with focus of the eyes trying to stay in panoramic mode without a focal point as my off the cushion practice. On the cushion I have been playing with noticing sensations and whether there is an internal quality or external quality to them. I think there is some spacial relational aspect that creates some of the agency...lets say that at 3rd path the sense of self in space goes away but what about all the external "objects" that are still in reference to where this hollowed out circle is? I am trying to vipassanaize this internal/external duality.I notice what my eyes are doing when I move back and forth...they try to change focus which I find strange especially when I move back and forth between the Nada sound and an external sound...I also move from thoughts to external objects....I have not tried to find permanent objects and dissolve them....interesting...
Gotta go meditate....hope you don't mind me starting this thread.
Good luck
~D

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 12:49 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:20 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively 'letting go' is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen's 'Do Nothing' practice?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:36 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?

Is this a question?

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread
Answer
9/29/14 2:46 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice. 

One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.

The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed. 

Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana's everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..