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Claims to Attainments

RE: Fruition and stream entry?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 1:58 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Here's the link to the book about Dipa Ma on amazon. She believed you could get enlightened while ironing the laundry, and apparently she taught a few students who did just that. Good stuff.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 2:58 PM as a reply to Eric M W.
Thanks a lot. I'll read it. Seems good.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 3:01 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Well, some people cross the A&P, hit the Dark Night, get to Equanimity, and get Stream Entry. They are the very lucky ones, as this is extremely unusual.

The vast majority of people who cross the A&P and then subsequently hit the Dark Night won't get to Equanimity in any easily recognizable way the first (or even second or third...) time around, and will then fall back, and later on recross the A&P, hit the Dark Night again, and at some point will get to Equanimity.

The vast majority of those will not get stream entry after attaining Equanimity, but will again fall back and likely recross the A&P again at some point.

Walking up and down this territory again and again is very common before getting stream entry, as the lessons at each stage are subtle, not easily learned, and they must be learned sufficiently for stream entry to arise.

I personally crossed the A&P at least 6 times in daily life before going on retreats, and so had at least 6 Dark Night episodes during that time, wasn't sure I ever crossed to Equanimity during that period, and then on retreat crossed the A&P on my first two retreats and hit the Dark Night again, also without an obvious Equanimity phase, and then crossed the A&P on my third retreat, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, retreat ended, and then I fell back into the Dark Night, and then finally, on my fourth retreat, crossed the A&P, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, and finally landed Stream Entry. This is a very normal sort of general pattern, and I call it the Standard Pattern for this reason. Notice descriptions here of very similar things by many, many practitioners.

Helpful?

Daniel
I'll give another thought, just food for thought.

It seems to me that the stages and jhanas relate to attitudes that we have regarding things that are important to us or blockages. Like a learning process.
For example, lets say we have an negative attitude regarding money. So:

We change that attitude, the mind feels released and focus on how to get money and how good it is (AP).
We find that we cannot make that much money and we even loose some (DN).
We find that we did our best effort and gained some and loosed some (EQ).

Now, these stages apply the same to insight (3Cs), even more because insight really changes the way we look at things.

So, if you are at EQ in insight but something changes drastically in your life you instantly focus and go back to AP.
It seems that the mind doesn't keep "multitasking" like: Money = AP, Insight = EQ.

The other difference is that, for some people the same attitude is used for everything and some make compartments. And sure there is leakage.

So, the stages of insight are the same stages that we happen for everything and it has to do with how the mind copes with disruptional information.
And, for sure, insight is disruptional information.

Most of the problems occur because insight stages leak that state into a lot of important things in our life (not insight related), where we are in a different "stage".

Again, just food for thought.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/1/14 2:38 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Reorganizing. Adding more "virtue" in activities and kicking bad habits (mind habits too).

Not noticing any improvements (in fact, all "wow" experiencies vanished or I do not pay attention to them), but seems like something is moving "right". Like I'm doing what I was supposed to be doing from a long time.

Very hard to explain or put into words.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/2/14 11:36 PM as a reply to J C.
I thought MCTB said that pre-path one falls all the way back to Mind&Body, that only after First Path does one start at A&P after falling from EQ. I find this topic unclear in MCTB, and people on the forum keep saying different things. emoticon

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/9/14 3:27 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thanks, Daniel. I think SE happened today. If not, it was a really good impression of it. I'm going to take the advice of not drawing firm conclusions, but wait and see.

I had a very clear A&P phase and culminating A&P event last July (2013). Then DN promptly ensued, where I cycled around and around and around until the second week of June 2014. I had barely grazed low EQ a few times. But after second week in June, the EQ just took hold, formations showed themselves at every sit.

My apprehension of formations is usually visual, but until today I wasn't seeing the beginnings and endings clearly. Today they became crystal clear, very regular, much more slowed down than usual, and I effortlessly stayed with each arising and each passing away. These are visual for me--though it can occur in the dimension of sound and even tactile feeling, too. In a kind of pre-verbal way, today I saw the arisings almost as blooms. And then I watched the passings-away, and the passings-away seemed like black, inverted blooms. So I had the sense that the "gone!" was also, still, a kind of arising, and I had the sense that this was so precisely because of the contextual frame that was the "real" arising, now known to be "gone." So, several more of these arisings and passings and then--what the hell was that? I don't know if I can even find words. But "I" was just gone as sense recognition returned from . . . where? And that "nothing in the seeing but the seen" now makes perfect sense!

Now, this said, I don't recall a "bliss wave." But something was very strange after all this. I was in a group setting, and right when sensory experience was kicking back in, the mediation bell rang, and I had the strangest feeling of not being able to come out of meditation. I even walked up to the cafe with my meditation friends, totally in a diffused meditative way. . . . This strangeness lasted about 10 minutes, and then I felt normal.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/9/14 3:41 AM as a reply to _.
I must be one of the "lucky ones," because if this was SE, it was ridiculously easy and fast to attain. I've been meditating only 3 years, never been on retreat, seldom sit more than 30 minutes, have dropouts bad during DNs, and generally have been comparatively half-assed about the whole practice, for reasons I don't know. I had A&P phenomena at my second or third sit ever. I have had a lot of weird experiences since a teenager, some terrifying, and think I was an unwitting DNY for decades. I don't want to get hung up on the story of how this was fast and easy for me once I read MCTB, but I would like to figure out, if possible, why it may have been that way--in case it could help others.

But first I better shut up and wait to see if this seeming SE was for real.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/14/14 2:30 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
One easy way for me to determin in which phase I am is the sex drive.
AP=Need, DN=Aversion, EQ=No need, no aversion.

I've noticed this, too, as a clear way to tell. I think SE happened for me last Friday, and return of sex drive, and a kind of heady exuberance, is telling me that I'm now back at A&P. 

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

I never know what to make of it when people say that the "lessons" of the Dark Night have to be learned before stream entry can happen. I went through two rounds of really horrific Dark Night from last August till this past June. I pretty much quit practicing, went on antidepressant medication so as not to end up on a psych ward, and wanted only to escape the Dark Night and consciousness itself. So, if by "lessons," one means learning that the Dark Night sucks . . . then, yeah, I "got" that lesson loud and clear. But I really don't recall anything else as a grand lesson or insight. Maybe that is what Review is for. I came to the Desire for Deliverance when I finally figured out that this abject horror could stop no other way than by Path. Maybe the lesson pre-SE is just that extreme suffering points the way out. I don't know.



RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/14/14 1:34 PM as a reply to _.
Jen Pearly:
I never know what to make of it when people say that the "lessons" of the Dark Night have to be learned before stream entry can happen.

The only thing you can really "learn" from dark night experiences is that a) they suck, and that b) you have to surrender to them. This is how you progress from dark night to equanimity. The knowledge that deepens is that you have nowhere to run from these dark night feelings. Instead, you must choose to surrender to them-- after all, they're here to stay. If you push them away, they will stay. If you observe them and allow them to be, they will pass very soon.

Of course, other ideas might strike you at the intellectual level though, they just won't really progress your insight forward. I often get very aware of karmic patterns of thought during the dark night, and make personal commitments to avoid those patterns as best as possible moving forward.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/15/14 8:36 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Still cycling.

Someone said that when you fall back you go back to "Mind and Body" (if you haven't got SE).
I tend to agree with that.

Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.

I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.

A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/15/14 1:04 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.
I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.
A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

Keep going! You'll undoubtedly attain stream-entry very shortly. Looking back, those experiences of "space" are what will grow and ripen with stream-entry-- at least in my experience. You're on the cusp!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
8/16/14 1:59 PM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Daniel Moretti:
Two new experiences. When walking on open spaces, the mind get "spacefull", panoramic vision and two things happen:
- I kind of seem like observing from the distance all experience, usually from a higher position (visually).
- There is a "deja vu" moment when experience "catches" with yourself, like a time displacement of part of the experience that gets slower and then it "catches on". Like a slow motion thing that accelerates and melts into the present time.
I'm pretty sure I have hit equanimity (I can definitely relate to the James Bond thing when I'm in it) and I'm cycling back and forth.
A thing I found useful when in daily life is to alternate between noting, effort in seeing sensations, feelings, thoughts, etc and deep breathing, relaxing.

Keep going! You'll undoubtedly attain stream-entry very shortly. Looking back, those experiences of "space" are what will grow and ripen with stream-entry-- at least in my experience. You're on the cusp!
Thanks. I'll keep meditating.
I'm moving forward on a lot of fronts, and I have to be careful with my knees.

Congratulations for getting SE!

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 8:43 AM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Something happened today. I was meditating in the early morning (5am).
My mind got caught in a story (as usual when I'm very quiet). I was beliving the story and suddenly there was a shift and I "woke up".
There was a discontinuity.
I felt extremely still. I somehow could understand something about making stories, beliefs.
I could (and still can) "feel" the process of "painting" my life with beliefs.
I felt a lot lighter and felt a lot of confidence. So, I made some resolutions.

While having breakfast I knew something had changed. It felt unimportant at first but it continues to shine. I felt kind of stupid too. Like, "this was it?".

Now, the things that have changed:

- I now "believe" in meditation. Before this, I always had some doubts.
- I can't "harden" stories, assumptions, beliefs. The mind is lighter.
- I can concentrate better. A joyful concentration.
- The mind has this tendency of "waking up", of being "brighter" on its own. Before it had the tendency to "sleep", "doubt".
- There's no effort whatsoever. In fact, I feel I could not go back to the way I was before even if I wanted.
- I feel a lot more my emotions.
- I do feel some pressure in the back of my head, but there is little effect on the body (compared to other experiences).
  It's all about the mind, about understanding.

In a sentence, the mind seems lighter, a lot lighter.

Another important point. I wasn't looking for that experience. It happened completely on its own.

I think it could be stream entry.
I'll give it some time to be sure anyway.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 9:18 AM as a reply to Daniel Moretti.
Another thing.

Today I have this tendency to smile, to laugh. I can't contain some deep feeling of joy or grattitude. I cried of joy (really, the feeling is that strong). It's a very profound sense of relief. I even had trouble breathing.

This is very rare because I'm not the emotional kind of person.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/2/14 7:07 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
I think it could be stream entry.
I'll give it some time to be sure anyway.
From what you've written, things are different, and hopefully you can use the objective sense of that to help demark this moment in time. Don't worry so much about whether it was specifically stream entry or not, and you'll sleep (even) easier emoticon

I think many of us feel the need to have the attainment confirmed, but at some point you may come to see that this confirmation is really pretty irrelevant. If it results in making the experience fit the description, it could even be very counter-productive (I wish I wouldn't have spent so much time wondering/researching/enumerating "signs" of stream entry). Rather, take the experience as an experience, enjoy whatever fruits may have resulted from it, continue to practice diligently and with good purpose.

I'm a much happier meditator for having dropped the need to categorize my experiences on (and really, off) the cushion.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 9:55 AM as a reply to Small Steps.
Thanks for the advice.

The most amazing, weird experiences I had were in the a&p phase, by far. I learned a lot from them.

I was very dissapointed when I realized that a very powerful experience that I had was not SE.
It sort of downgraded it like: "nah, thats just a&p". On the other hand, I knew it wasn't SE.
I could feel it fading, each up less strong than each down. They were also inestable.

I had given up on SE. I meditated out of habit.

Regarding the experience I had, it was very different from all other experiences:

It was unexpected. I was still. There was nearly no body phenomena. I felt like falling in the story and then I "woke up", staring at something in front of me (the wall?).
There was no rapture, no bliss, no EQ. Just this very profound relief that some paradox in the mind was finally resolved. The grattitude for this relief is inmense.

In daily life, the mind feels "softer", yet brighter, like when you stare at a picture, the stars or clouds and the lines between you and the thing you see or think about begin to blur.
The connections between things, thoughts, etc are "difussed". It's not that you see them difusse or blur, they already appear or feel difussed, softer, lighter.
It's a definite change of perspective and I can't go back even if I wanted. I can feel a lot less stress, but I really don't know how did it dissapear.

Categorizing experiences is useful if you can manage the hit on the ego, comparisons, neurotic stuff, and use the information to your advantage.
It depends a lot on how you feel. The latest cycles I didn't know in what stage I was.
If you feel categorizing is not good for your practice, don't do it.

For now, I do claim SE, not carved in stone but pretty sure. I don't worry too much about it, anyway.

Good luck with your practice and congratulations for the experiences that you had.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 10:36 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Your experience sounds very promising. There are a few things that really help to "diagnose" SE, especially considering this is an internet forum and therefore it is a limited way of communicating.

Have you noticed any more blips or discontinuities? What happens if you incline your mind towards one?

Is there any sense of cycling?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 11:48 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
No more blips or discontinuities.
I do feel some continued light pressure in the back of my head (every moment) that intensifies with time.
I'm trying not to force the mind to do anything (I'm not even noting) to understand what had changed (which is very subtle yet pervasive).

My eyes are more open. I really feel more awake.
The shift between things (thoughts, visions, hearing, etc) in the mind is a lot faster and smoother now because there is less "conceptualizing".
This results in better concentration and, when in a place with a lot of people an inmense joy.
The joy comes because now I can focus on many things faster and the vision is brigther. And the most important thing, for some reason, the mind doesn't get tired of doing so.
The mind delights more on things.

No sense of cycling yet.

I'm going to try to incline my mind towards a blip and I tell you how it goes.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
10/3/14 1:49 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
For now, I do claim SE, not carved in stone but pretty sure. I don't worry too much about it, anyway.


hey congrats! (claps with one hand)
I'm glad you are enjoying where you have gotten to.
Good work, whether carved or not.
~D