bob d:
A reply to that extended quote. It is absurd to create a new 'map for enlightenment' every few weeks. The fact that these 'meditation teachers' who claim to know it all add a new stage at the end every five minutes undermines any use of what they have to say. First we have 4,5,7 now 10. And that's all before running into one supramundane power, which is meant to be the halfway point by vedic texts. Stop trying to teach people and just do the work...
Certainly not everyone is adding stages and models every 5 minutes, though there are those who are revising what they previously thought due to having access to new and better information. Science does that also. The problem with revising models based on new and better data is?
It should be noted, as one who has spent a whole lot of time over about 18 years thinking really, really hard about the models and talking with a lot of people about them as well as living them: it is not easy to model these things. What is found in the world of meditators, the jungle if you will, is extremely diverse, and various people develop all sorts of interesting and transformative abilities, perceptual changes, and understandings in various sequences that don't all line up, don't all come in the neat packages people think they will, don't all conform to ancient maps and yet may be truly remarkable and produce profound benefits. The diversity of this continues to surprise me, but, given the complexity of the mind and the many, many innovations in meditation and large numbers of combinations that are happening these days, it is not really that strange, and probably should have been expected.
bob d:
And there's no use skirting round the issue, Daniel, of claiming arahantship, by saying it's not really full enlightenment anyway. Buddha's definition of arahant was always a bit wet, saying that anything after arahantship (liberation from rebirth) was icing on the cake. Buddha kept meditating in order to reach full realisation, which requires perfect control of the psychic powers. He didn't meditate because it was just some intrinsically good thing to do, like several of you suggest.
Yeah, the powers... I have spent a lot of time playing with the powers. To say they are the be all and end all, or even some serious marker of definite transformation and understanding, or to try to perfectly map them based on some very arbitrary model of awakening: all are a definite recipe for trouble and disappointment. I would consider revising your models.
bob d:
Buddha said the four jhanas were a worldy reward for attaining arahantship, since nirvana is only inferred, rather than experienced. This doesn't even mean quick access to the jhanas, as he calls those with instant access particularly skillful recluses.
So the bar for arahantship is rather low. I can enter the jhanas rather quickly with great intensity, but I find them highly gross, and take no pleasure from it. Does this mean I have destroyed the fetter of desire for heavenly birth?
Hard to say just based on one sentence. Weak jhanas actually? Just not much of a jhana fan? The notion of no pleasure from them and jhana is so nearly a contradiction that it makes me wonder what you call jhana, but then again, perhaps massive bliss, staggering peace, and other more exotic and wonderful experiences are not your cup of tea... To each their own. De gustibus non est disputandum. What does flip your skirt up if not great intensity of jhana? BTW: to say you have all the jhanas is probably a larger number than you think. How many do you have? What are they like? Why do you say great intensity and gross at the same time? To say that Neither Perception nor yet Non-Perception is gross somehow strikes me as odd if you are really getting it. Something doesn't add up, or perhaps I am misinterpreting you.
bob d:
Patanjali says the powers are definitely encountered, at least in part, and must be set aside before getting anywhere near cosmic union. You're fooling yourselves if you think otherwise. Patanjali said mental modifications were needed to attain this, such as what we would call jhana. Sleep is another mental modification. 'Actual freedom' is a mental modification which is tragic if it leads people away from the goal, thinking they are already done.
People with various "terminal" or seemingly terminal transformations have a lot of fun competing for whose is the best and whose is the most true, most terminal, highest, and the like. While I can on the one hand see the practical implications of this, yet, given that it is hard to be sure that even those who are doing what seem to be real A-B comparisons are, in fact, comparing the same things, and are you so sure that you personally can be sure that, given the ability to do a real A-B-C-D-etc. comparison between them (say you could put on, say, 5 hats, each of which would temporarily engender the feeling and perceptual abilities of one of them), are you sure you know which you would choose?
It is a difficult problem, and to be sure you have the one, true solution is an old notion. Perhaps you will derive skillful benefit from your true, exclusive, and zealous faith in that particular seemingly highest path of many possible highest paths, but as those who have been doing this a while usually realize, it ain't always so simple.
bob d:
While I follow Patanjali as the best teacher, the insight cycles described in hardcore dharma are curious and I follow it, jhana or samadhi is a more positive way forward than pushing into the refresh rate of vision.
Please examine the sutras of Patanjali, you'll all be better off. It deals with the entire moral side of practise on one or two sentences, which is all it deserves. I'm glad to see this forum dying, it means people are following their own meditation.
bob
I have read and examined the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, particularly when I was big into my power's phase in the mid-late 90's (not that I might not have another one at some point, not trying to say that I am done with them (as in, "Oh, Patanjali was sooo 1998") by saying that, as who knows when I might suddenly find them worth of further development for some reason again?). I found his writings interesting and enjoyable.
As to this forum dying, the whole world is dying and also being reborn, but at the moment, at least, there are more posts here than I can keep up with, and more to respond to that I have time for, and so, as least for this one person, it is more than meeting my needs and hopefully still meeting the needs of whoever else is looking for the sort of thing that happens here, and, rather than feeling it is dying, I find it more than I can keep up with, if that helps you perceive things from a different perspective.
Best of luck finding places that more fit with your particular style, interests and true faith in the one highest path. If you are interested in having an exclusively Patanjali-based community, let me know and I will create a new community on the DhO for you with its own forum, as Liferay (the platform this place runs on) is large, that is easily done, and perhaps it will be helpful.
Daniel