A rather serious practice

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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 3:58 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 3:19 AM

A rather serious practice

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The Vietnamese monk -- Thích Quảng Đức -- who self-immolated in June, 1963 to end massive persecution of Buddhists in his country.

Wikipedia information on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c

Story of the news coverage and famous pictures (that at the time went 'viral' in the media):
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/11/18886161-burning-monk-photo-how-a-moment-became-breaking-news-in-15-hours?lite


At the end of the story there's a page or two of discussion / comments from the public, which in comparison makes DhO seem a haven of sanity and compassion.

A video made of the event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo_iV7kOGe4

Another video briefer but better color:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB_6Pm0gjF8

(both videos I think are edited versions; first hand reports were that the burning body was fully erect for about 10 minutes, which isn't fully covered in the video versions.)

This topic was mentioned earlier in the thread "Meditation skill(s) and working with pain?"
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5696942

This monk was claerly an advanced practitioner, and obviously went into some sort of very hard jhana -- sitting erect, no movement, no expression, etc., until the body sinews could no longer hold the position, said to have taken about 10 minutes.

And the topic mentioned earlier an earlier discussion of Buddha's attitude about suicide in one of the Kenneth Folk threads in early February.

In the last day or so I chanced across the internet references and thought to share here.
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 8:01 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 8:01 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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[quote=
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This monk was claerly an advanced practitioner, and obviously went into some sort of very hard jhana -- sitting erect, no movement, no expression, etc., until the body sinews could no longer hold the position, said to have taken about 10 minutes.

Or, perhaps Thích Quảng Đức had abandoned all Ten Fetters and was fully Enlightened, that too would explain how he could have endured.

I had always wanted to bring up Thích Quảng Đức, but it was so graphic, and controversial, the timeless picture of Thích Quảng Đức is also seen on a Rage Against the Machine album cover.

Psi
Oochdd, modified 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 10:05 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/9/15 10:05 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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If it was a hard jhana he was able to get in there very quickly though: according to the reports he basically sat down, was doused in gasoline and immediately lighted a match. Are you able to light a match while in hard jhana? Are you able to get into jhana while on fire?

Whatever it was, it was both impressive and seemingly senseless. 
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/11/15 8:04 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 3:30 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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Oochdd:
If it was a hard jhana he was able to get in there very quickly though: according to the reports he basically sat down, was doused in gasoline and immediately lighted a match. Are you able to light a match while in hard jhana? Are you able to get into jhana while on fire?

Whatever it was, it was both impressive and seemingly senseless. 

Thich Guang Duc was 66 y/o then, and probably practiced since at least age 15.

A teacher of mine (Shaila Catherine) who has trained in jhana for more than a decade (written books on it), and much of that with PaAuk Sayadaw (in several 3-month retreats), relates that the Sayadaw would train more advanced students in various techniques such as switching in and out of jhanas rapidly, even several times/second. And she had earlier trained in the PaAuk way that's famous for being rather rigorous -- holding nimitta-access samadhi for hours before absorbing; then absorbing for hours in various jhanas, even for days. And mastering the "5 masteries" 1) in adverting to absorption; 2) in entering; 3) in pre-setting the duration of absorption; 4) in emerging; and 5) reflecting upon it  after (vipassana).

[PaAuk Sayadaw is famous for his initial intensive training methods in Visudhimagga-type samadhi / jhana -- visudhimagga hardcore HARD jhana --  BUT, just like Mahasi is famous for just about the opposite (i.e. initial emphasis on vipassana) when you read PaAuk's writtings, see the whole program (just like looking at Mahasi's writings and his whole program) -- aside from variations in beginning phase didactics, the deeper the trainings go the more they converge, and at the later stages, they are identical -- hardcore modern Burmese Theravada!]

Duc was a senior monk (and Mahayana in tradition), but after 4 decades of full-time practice, most certainly thorough master of samadhi and insight practices; and very likely well into the "paths", if not arahant.

Watch the video -- after the other monk pours the gasoline, there's a long pause while Duc just sits there, before striking and dropping the match. And watch closely -- the body is erect, motionless, for minutes -- there's "no-one" there, no pain, no suffering; "Mara cannot find him anywhere". I actually find it not gruesome, or sad, or cause for grief. As you put it, impressive, and I would add profoundly so.  Though unfortunate always when we who are still living lose a presence and teacher like that.

Read the wikipedia and the media article background. The American-supported puppet government in South Veitnam had intensified dis-enfranchising, persecuting the ca. 70% Buddhist majority in favor of those who converted to Roman Catholicism and bowing to exploitation by American business models. Buddhists were discriminated against politically and financially, and when they protested (peacefully) they were attacked and masacred by goverment soldiers. Thich Guang Duc chose his dramatic protest at a point shortly before the government was planning to attack, murder thousands of monks and other Buddhists. (Like what the Chinese did in Tibet a decade earlier.)

Preventing that, which his actions did, I don't find "senseless".

(The puppet leader Diem was overthrown 4 months later, after JFK withdrew support for those policies, and Diem also then assasinated (about the same time Kennedy was, in fact, and after his own policy towards Vietnam had started to shift in the direction if getting out of there).)
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 4:10 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 4:07 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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In fact, watching that video reminds me of the classic 1927 movie "La Passion de Jeane D'Arc" by Theodor Dreyer -- particularly the ending scenes where she's burned at the stake... and the intertwined political themes -- she gave her life fighting to save her people.

Various links:
https://www.google.com/search?q=dreyer+joan+of+arc&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Watch the whole movie here, but the subtitles are in French (the movie is silent, no original ound track):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Q6FVhqLY0

Also a version of the whole movie, with English subtitles to the French subtitles, but also an obnoxious, over dramatic sound-track music added, and you have to watch an ad before it starts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxJSGMK9yRE
Change A, modified 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 9:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 9:59 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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Chris J Macie:
Someone has commented that this footage is from a movie, not of the actual event.
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 11:11 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 11:09 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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David Halberstam wrote:

I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think ... As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.[url=[27]][27]





C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 4:36 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/10/15 4:36 PM

RE: A rather serious practice

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I've never watched those videos before and wasn't aware that he didn't move or cry out. Up until now I didn't think it was possible for a human being to endure immolation in that manner. It's beyond amazing. I'm inspired. If it is possible to train in such a manner as to be able to do something like that, then eradicating greed and hatred seem like a smaller challenge.
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svmonk, modified 9 Years ago at 4/11/15 1:03 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/11/15 1:02 PM

RE: A rather serious practice

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Just reviewed some videos on Youtube (search: Tibetan fire protest) of Tibetans practicing self-immolation to protest the Chinese injustice in Tibet. Over 100 Tibetans have set themselves on fire since maybe 2009. Some of them survived to die later. Most of them don't seem to be ordained Sangha. They mostly run or roll about. I saw one, though, of a nun who just stood there burning until she lost consciousness and toppled over, like Thich Quang Duc except standing.
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/12/15 7:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/12/15 6:30 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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re: Change A. (4/10/15 9:59 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )
"Someone has commented that this footage is from a movie, not of the actual event."

The Thich Guang Doc video appears modified but authentic:

Having studied the couple of versions of the video, and several photos from the event, it seems to me the video is edited and in some ways touched-up, for instance color modification. And some versions have a long trailer of background and aftermath of the political-religious broader context, and religious devotion. So it is a sort of documentary with some degree of biased framing. It is framed as a martyrdoom, very similar (if you study the Dreyer film – clearly a cinematic reconstruction, but based on the extensively recorded official transcripts of the trial of Joan of Arc; and read some of the extensive historical documntation and analyses) to the case of (Saint) Joan of Arc, as a national and religious hero to the Frenchpeople,to this day.

On the other hand, several prominent Western journalists were present, and some took photos which align with the video scenes. While there is some (religious) propandistic distortion, a bias towards imparting a message and meaning to the event, I believe the footage can be assumed to be genuine. There were so many first-hand witnesses of various sorts (reporters, soldier, devotees, monks, etc.) that a fraudulent movie would have easily been exposed as such.

Look at it in the sense that the event is so stark that any interpretation is almost necessarily touched by reactive bias of one sort or another. For instance the impression given in the report of lasting impression by David Halberstam. And, on the other hand, the hint of sceptical reaction in a couple of posts here reflects a less than objective reaction. It's as if hardly any human being could witness something like that and then remember it as neutral or purely objectively, so to speak. Witnessing human death has a strong impacton human observers, evokes intense attention.

Ritualistic human sacrifice is historically ubiquitous:

Look at the fact that almost every major human culture, at least in their earlier phases, used human sacrifice as a, perhaps the major religious ritual. The Hebrew God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son – that wasn't an exceptional event for the time. The "passion" of Jesus Christ, the defining moment (as setting up the "resurrection") for Christianity, was human sacrifice. Ancient Greek cultures, Mezzo-American medieval cultures (Aztex, Mayan). early Indian Vedic culture -- all routinely and centrally used human sacrifice, and the victims were often voluntary.

Medieval European (and colonial American) witch-burnings were major public spectacles, as were beheadings during the French Revolution.

Look around today (20th- and 21st-centuries). State-sponsored executions are a form of human sacrifice (to the gods of modern legal systems). Look at newsphotos of public executions (e.g. in the USA in 20th-century) where huge crowds gathered to watch, to "experience" the event. Look at the highly ritualistic  human sacrifices carried-out and broadcast today, almost every week, by the ISIS/ISIL movement, and which, btw, are apparently highly effective in propagandizing their cause to motivate potential recruits around the world.

Ritualistic self-sacrifice is also traditional in Buddhist history:


(from Wikipedia article on"self-immolation")

"Self-immolation is tolerated by some elements of Mahayana Buddhism and Hinduism, and it has been practiced for many centuries, especially in India, for various reasons, including Sati, political protest, devotion, and renouncement."
...
"The act of sacrificing one's own body, though not by fire, is a component of two well-known stories found in the ancient Buddhist text known as the Jataka tales, which, according to Buddhist tradition, gives accounts of past incarnations of the Buddha."
...
"The monk Fayu (d. 396) carried out the earliest recorded Chinese self-immolation.[10] He first informed the "illegitimate" prince Yao Xu– brother of Yao Chang who founded the non-Chinese Qiang state Later Qin (384-417) – that he intended to burn himself alive. Yao tried to dissuade Fayu, but he publicly swallowed incense chips, wrapped his body in oiled cloth, and chanted while setting fire to himself. The religious and lay witnesses were described as being "full of grief and admiration.""
...
""Spontaneous human combustion" was a rare form of self-immolation that Buddhists associated with samādhi "consciously leaving one's body at the time of enlightenment". The monk Ningyi (d. 1583) stacked up firewood to burn himself, but, "As soon the torch was raised, his body started to burn 'like a rotten root' and was soon completely consumed. A wise person declared, 'He has entered the fiery samādhi.""
...
"An important source of inspiration for the monks and nuns who self-immolated is the twenty-third chapter of the Lotus Sutra which recounts the life story of Bodhisattva Medicine King. In this section of the Sutra, Medicine King demonstrates his insight into Śūnyatā and the selfless nature of all things by ritualistically setting his own body aflame, which burned for twelve hundred years to demonstrate the immeasurable power of theBuddhadharma. Thich Nhat Hanh adds: "The bodhisattva shone his light about him so that everyone could see as he could see, giving them the opportunity to see the deathless nature of the ultimate."
...
And an interesting side comment there:


"While the burning of vital tissue can be very painful during self-immolation, shock or asphyxiation quickly make the event painless,[21]
as do the onset of third-degree burns which destroy the nerve endings."
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 12:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 12:23 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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re: C P M (4/10/15 2:36 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"… If it is possible to train in such a manner as to be able to do something like that, then eradicating greed and hatred seem like a smaller
challenge."


That relates to why I thought to bring it uphere. This thread is not about keeping a noting log, but touches, big time, an issue which is otherwise s/w fuzzy here in Dh0 – what can one actually get out of all this practice, of whatever sort?

A broad range of possible answers: some degree of self-improvement… better able help oneself and others with "suffering"… enlightenment / awakening / liberation… This thread adds the dimension: living without fear and with purpose in the face of death, which is "right there," just around the corner, for all of us.
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 12:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 12:25 AM

RE: A rather serious practice

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re: svmonk  (4/11/15 11:03 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.
"…a nun who just stood there burning until she lost consciousness and toppled over, like Thich Quang Duc except standing."

Thanks for the heads-up on that one. I had glanced thru some of the youtube offerings that came up on the sideline to the Thich Guang Duc one, but saw only those cases walking around, getting dowsed, etc. Have you found any longer versions of the video of the nun that might give more of the context?
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svmonk, modified 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 2:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/13/15 2:54 PM

RE: A rather serious practice

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No. Most of these videos are taken with cellphones by Tibetans and you can see the Chinese police on the sidelines in some of them rushing in to put out the person on fire and arrest them. I imagine the onlookers don't want to be caught up in the dragnet.

                          jak

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