Report of my stream-entry

April V, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 9:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 9:38 AM

Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/7/10 Recent Posts
It's been nearly 3 weeks since my stream-entry. This report is coming out now after some discussions and feedback when everything is clearer from present perspective. It's coming out of gratitude and the fact that reading how other ordinary people got it done was when I realized that I can do it also.

I've been very much involved in Goenka's tradition since my first A&P event by doing retreats one after the other and serving long-term at the centers. Even so, there was a clear sense that I am not able to make a progress. The given goal to ,,clear out some sankharas'' did not convince me and not seeing the way out I stopped practicing entirely.

Everything changed for me after finding Daniel's book, the maps and switching to noting practice. I went on a self-retreat for a week in June and proceeded with a goal-oriented attitude and discipline for two weeks at home. The breakthrough happened after understanding that noting needs to be dropped while in Equanimity at some point, because it clearly starts to get in the way. This resulted in getting to High Equanimity and I needed to just stay there while every mental or physical sensation was objectified by awareness automatically and energy build-up was happening as pressures on the 3rd eye and the crown.

My fruition occured not during meditation but in relaxation while listening to a dhamma talk. I found I could tune in to 4th jhana by observing sensations on the 3rd eye. Then started to incline the mind towards nibbana and repeated three times that I allow myself to exprerience it for the benefit of myself and other beings. Just sitting there for some time got into very deep tranquility. There was nothing but a wave of awareness floating in space. Then suddenly my eyes went up, everything disappeared for just a brief instant and I was back with a light, soothing wave of ease and questioning myself: could that be IT? After standing up felt very normal and usual, therefore decided that this was not IT, but a hint that I was on a right track.

The next day I started to suspect that the ,,damage'' is already done. The energy in the spine got highly activated and started to do some intensive cleaning work in my chakras, especially solar plexus. The mind was very sensitive and easy to concentrate. The meditation started from the first minute with the crown wide open, energy rising up and A&P like vibrations. The cycling pattern got clearer in the following days. I practiced much even during this review phase trying to induce a repeated fruition, although it never happened (later I found that it's not so uncommon). I soon got really bored and fed up. I realized that I can be concentrated or spaced out, note or not, move awareness like this or like that - there was no difference to how the sensations were showing themselves. There was urge to move on soon I found myself in Mind and Body with solidity, narrow awareness and fresh looking sensations. At that point it felt like a beginning of something new and I felt relieved, in a mood to laugh at everything and relax.

After some days, however, doubts started creeping in whether this was a stream-entry or not, it's like the mind wanted verification from the outside. That said I don't seem to worry if this ,, self'' doubts or feels confused, most importantly fundamental confusion about this ,,self'' is seen through LOL. Just in simple life situations, for example:

-just walking down the street I remember how I walked here some months ago feeling all stressed out and worried. It strikes me how unnecessary suffering for this ,,self'' is. There is just life happening whether I worry about it or not.
-I'm having an argument. I start to see that this body is gesticulating and words are flowing, but I don't influence what is happening. There is nobody here to own it and I am ok with it. I feel the one who sees and observes and it feels quite interesting.
-watching a video by non-dual teacher. When he talks about no-self it makes sense to me like never before, It seems I know what he means.
-I find myself in a situation which causes some anxiety to arise. It lingers in the mind for a short time, but ...does not find platform to stick to and so disappears. I smile.

So finally I feel deep grattude to Daniel for writing the book and experienced practitioners of this forum who collected such a wealth of knowledge on these threads with insight practice tips.

May all who are inclined to awaken believe that they can do so in this lifetime!
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 9:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 9:44 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Congrats April emoticon
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Nikolai , modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 10:13 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 10:13 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Awesome April! Just Awesome! Congrats. Get ready for one hell of a ride!

Mudita,

Nick
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Dark Night Yogi, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 10:29 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 10:24 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 138 Join Date: 8/25/09 Recent Posts
Congrats April!! By the way, some people easily get 2nd path soon after 1st path like in a few weeks after : ) if you wanna go for it. I got mine a month after by continuing with the strong practice!

Mudita & all the best!
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Clayton James Lightfoot, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 11:31 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 11:31 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 41 Join Date: 1/21/10 Recent Posts
Sounds a lot like my SE... buckle up...I like what Daniel said during the Hurricane Ranch discussion... "Once you get Stream Entry you're really screwed" haha Just keep practicing and I am sure thing will continue to progress...

Clayton
Derek, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 1:08 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 1:08 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
April V:
Even so, there was a clear sense that I am not able to make a progress. The given goal to ,,clear out some sankharas'' did not convince me


April, I wonder if you'd share with us what you attribute the lack of progress to? Was the stated goal not correct, or was the method ineffective for reaching the goal? Or is the method appropriate for some but not for others?
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Nikolai , modified 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 7:42 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 2:04 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Derek A Cameron:
April V:
Even so, there was a clear sense that I am not able to make a progress. The given goal to ,,clear out some sankharas'' did not convince me


April, I wonder if you'd share with us what you attribute the lack of progress to? Was the stated goal not correct, or was the method ineffective for reaching the goal? Or is the method appropriate for some but not for others?


Thought I'd give my 2 cents worth.

I was immersed in the Goenka tradition as well for many years and only when i switched to noting did I make fast progress to Stream Entry.

The object of Vipassana is to objectify / dis-embed from / dis-identify from / generate dispassion for / be completely equanimous with / not cling to ALL phenomena, mental and physical. That includes all sensations and their tones (pleasant/unpleasant/neutral), mind states, emotions, thoughts, images...ALL OF IT!! The sense of self is made up of thoughts, mind states, sensations and images too. So you can objectify it too. In my opinion the noting method will do this most effectively. The Sweeping method with just bare awareness focuses purely on the sensations. A yogi may ignore the other phenomena. A big mistake. But you could still have bare awareness of all phenomena without noting it.

Noting should be preceded by "noticing". That means "being aware" of phenomena as it arises and passes away. Mentally noting re-enforces the objectification of the phenomena once it has been noticed. There is a danger of observing and noticing phenomena but still being "embedded in" and "clinging" to it at the same time if there hasn't been a good deal of concentration developed. Lot's of concentration is needed to remain dis-embedded from phenomena without noting. This is where, in my opinion, a lot of yogis in the Goenka tradition get stuck. They get "lost" or embedded in certain phenomena instead of dis-identifying / dis-embedding from it and don't get to escape velocity.

When you notice phenomena and then mentally note it, even verbally noting it out loud, you have immediately objectified that phenomena. You have DIS-EMBEDDED from that phenomena. Whatever you note is not "I". It is not the self. You dis-embed from all phenomena including the sense of self, and....POP--------> Stream entry!

Within the Goenka tradition there is the belief that one must "eradicate" sankharas/formations. What a misunderstanding!!! You dont eradicate sankharas. You see them for what they truly are, particularly in the 11th ñana with equanimity. There is no eradicating of them, but a shedding of light on them and a releasing of the clinging to them. An eradication of the "stickiness" if you will. Not of the sankharas themselves as they still can occur at 4th path. Just without the clinging. With the belief that one must eradicate sankharas there is also the belief that it will take a yogi a bloody longtime to eradicate ALL of the sankharas they seem to have. And seeing as "I" am so full of sankharas, It will take lifetimes to do it. So there is this non-negotiable mindset formed within that tradition that Stream Entry is not something that can be attained quickly. Sorry for saying this but it is my true sentiment... What a load of utter bullshit!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra (Ignorance is what is eradicated. Not sankharas!!! It is the clinging to them that causes misery.Without clinging, they arise and pass away like all phenomena)

My 2 cents.

Nick
Derek, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 2:21 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 2:21 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai S Halay:
The Sweeping method with just bare awareness focuses purely on the sensations. A yogi may ignore the other phenomena. A big mistake.


Yes, my reading suggested to me that there is volition involved in choosing only to be aware of sensations and not to be aware of other phenomena. No matter how much one practices in this way, one will always be identified with that volition. Thank you for confirming this on the basis of experience.

Nikolai S Halay:
Within the Goenka tradition there is the belief that one must "eradicate" sankharas/formations.


Your explanation makes very clear the the distinction between undoing the sankharas versus letting them be as they are but not sticking to them.

Nikolai S Halay:
My 2 cents.


Thank you -- good value for 2 cents!
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Dark Night Yogi, modified 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 11:04 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/30/10 11:04 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 138 Join Date: 8/25/09 Recent Posts
Excellent and clear post Nikolai on telling the 2 shortcomings of Goenka tradition!

1) has incomplete technique
2) aims to remove sankharas but not remove ignorance
April V, modified 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 2:23 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 2:23 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/7/10 Recent Posts
Thanks everyone! Nikolai, a special credit goes to you, because some time ago you answered me a few questions and encouraged to go for it. Your own story of someone who also struggled with Goenka was my inspiration. It's because of such people like you I see sangha as a jewel.

Derek, Nikolai already gave you a perfect explanation, I could never give a better one. Many of his ,,2 cents'' results in being gold worth.
Ron Crouch, modified 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 8:06 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 8:06 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 2 Join Date: 6/5/10 Recent Posts
Wonderful April - congrats!
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 11:24 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/31/10 11:24 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
April V:
It's been nearly 3 weeks since my stream-entry. This report is coming out now after some discussions and feedback when everything is clearer from present perspective. It's coming out of gratitude and the fact that reading how other ordinary people got it done was when I realized that I can do it also.

I've been very much involved in Goenka's tradition since my first A&P event by doing retreats one after the other and serving long-term at the centers. Even so, there was a clear sense that I am not able to make a progress. The given goal to ,,clear out some sankharas'' did not convince me and not seeing the way out I stopped practicing entirely.

Everything changed for me after finding Daniel's book, the maps and switching to noting practice. I went on a self-retreat for a week in June and proceeded with a goal-oriented attitude and discipline for two weeks at home. The breakthrough happened after understanding that noting needs to be dropped while in Equanimity at some point, because it clearly starts to get in the way. This resulted in getting to High Equanimity and I needed to just stay there while every mental or physical sensation was objectified by awareness automatically and energy build-up was happening as pressures on the 3rd eye and the crown.

My fruition occured not during meditation but in relaxation while listening to a dhamma talk. I found I could tune in to 4th jhana by observing sensations on the 3rd eye. Then started to incline the mind towards nibbana and repeated three times that I allow myself to exprerience it for the benefit of myself and other beings. Just sitting there for some time got into very deep tranquility. There was nothing but a wave of awareness floating in space. Then suddenly my eyes went up, everything disappeared for just a brief instant and I was back with a light, soothing wave of ease and questioning myself: could that be IT? After standing up felt very normal and usual, therefore decided that this was not IT, but a hint that I was on a right track.

The next day I started to suspect that the ,,damage'' is already done. The energy in the spine got highly activated and started to do some intensive cleaning work in my chakras, especially solar plexus. The mind was very sensitive and easy to concentrate. The meditation started from the first minute with the crown wide open, energy rising up and A&P like vibrations. The cycling pattern got clearer in the following days. I practiced much even during this review phase trying to induce a repeated fruition, although it never happened (later I found that it's not so uncommon). I soon got really bored and fed up. I realized that I can be concentrated or spaced out, note or not, move awareness like this or like that - there was no difference to how the sensations were showing themselves. There was urge to move on soon I found myself in Mind and Body with solidity, narrow awareness and fresh looking sensations. At that point it felt like a beginning of something new and I felt relieved, in a mood to laugh at everything and relax.

After some days, however, doubts started creeping in whether this was a stream-entry or not, it's like the mind wanted verification from the outside. That said I don't seem to worry if this ,, self'' doubts or feels confused, most importantly fundamental confusion about this ,,self'' is seen through LOL. Just in simple life situations, for example:

-just walking down the street I remember how I walked here some months ago feeling all stressed out and worried. It strikes me how unnecessary suffering for this ,,self'' is. There is just life happening whether I worry about it or not.
-I'm having an argument. I start to see that this body is gesticulating and words are flowing, but I don't influence what is happening. There is nobody here to own it and I am ok with it. I feel the one who sees and observes and it feels quite interesting.
-watching a video by non-dual teacher. When he talks about no-self it makes sense to me like never before, It seems I know what he means.
-I find myself in a situation which causes some anxiety to arise. It lingers in the mind for a short time, but ...does not find platform to stick to and so disappears. I smile.

So finally I feel deep grattude to Daniel for writing the book and experienced practitioners of this forum who collected such a wealth of knowledge on these threads with insight practice tips.

May all who are inclined to awaken believe that they can do so in this lifetime!


a very clear report. please keep the forum updated, if you wish, on what goes on (and how you continue to practise, if you do) these next few weeks.

tarin
April V, modified 13 Years ago at 8/1/10 1:23 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/1/10 1:23 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/7/10 Recent Posts
Tarin,

One second of nibbana has diminished my cravings, aversions and ignorance considerably more than all the days on Goenka's retreats and hours of sweeping up and down in daily practice. Was your experience contrary?

Doing Vipassana for the sake of clearing all defilements, surely may seem like a lifetime job and therefore discouraging for someone who is dark nighter.
Or even pursuing AF for such person who is reactive and cranky or even depressed - does not sound to happen anytime soon. Staying in the dark night without making the way out damages lives, I would never recommend it to anyone.
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 8/1/10 2:09 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/1/10 2:02 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
April V:
Tarin,

One second of nibbana has diminished my cravings, aversions and ignorance considerably more than all the days on Goenka's retreats and hours of sweeping up and down in daily practice. Was your experience contrary?


no, it was not (contrary to what you have written). have you read something i have written which states or suggests so?

April V:

Doing Vipassana for the sake of clearing all defilements, surely may seem like a lifetime job and therefore discouraging for someone who is dark nighter.


sure.. but how about doing vipassana for the sake of clearing away a sufficient amount of the coarse defilements, which then gives rise to the experience of nibbana?

from the day 7 discourse (which, given your extensive experience with his courses, you would have heard many times):

S.N. Goenka:

The Buddha said, "When a meditator practises ardently, without neglecting for a moment awareness and equanimity towards sensations, such a person develops real wisdom, understanding sensations completely." The meditator understands how one who lacks wisdom reacts to sensations, and multiplies his misery. The meditator also understands how one who bears in mind the impermanent nature of all sensations will not react to them, and will come out of misery. The Buddha continued, "With this thorough understanding, the meditator is able to experience the stage beyond mind and matter—nibbana." One cannot experience nibbana until the heaviest sankhara have been eliminated—those that would lead to a future life in a lower form of existence where misery would predominate. Fortunately, when one starts to practise Vipassana, it is these very sankhara that arise first. One remains equanimous and they pass away. When all such sankhara have been eradicated, then naturally one experiences nibbana for the first time.

(...)

By remaining equanimous towards gross, unpleasant sensations, you will proceed to experience subtler, pleasant sensations. If you continue to maintain equanimity, sooner or later you will reach the stage described by the Buddha, in which throughout the physical structure, the meditator experiences nothing but arising and passing away. All the gross, solidified sensations have dissolved; throughout the body there is nothing but subtle vibrations. Naturally this stage is very blissful, but still it is not the final goal, and one must not become attached to it. Some of the gross impurities have been eradicated, but others still remain in the depths of the mind. If one continues to observe equanimously, one after another all the deeper sankhara will arise and pass away. When they are all eradicated, then one experiences the ‘deathless’—something beyond mind and matter, where nothing arises, and therefore nothing passes away—the indescribable stage of nibbana.

Everyone who works properly to develop awareness and equanimity will certainly reach this stage (...)


tarin
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 12:51 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 12:34 PM

Thread Splitted

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
i have, in addition to having already split off derek cameron's comments to another thread, just now split off my, nikolai halay's, april v's, and others' discussion about sankharas (and other things) to yet another thread, as the topics of these discussions are tangential to april's original post as well as differ from each other. while both threads bear the title 'RE: Report of my stream-entry', the first thread is 'started by' derek cameron, and the second thread, by tarin greco.

tarin
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Daniel Johnson, modified 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 5:16 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/6/10 5:16 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Congrats.
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/7/10 11:45 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/7/10 11:45 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
April V:
Staying in the dark night without making the way out damages lives, I would never recommend it to anyone.


So friggin' true! How many miss this essential point and spin off on so many other tangents and whatnot.

Nicely done, April. Please do keep us informed as to how things go if you wish. These sorts of reports and the ones of the period that follows always help inspire others to practice well and also help sort out what it what.

I would try to resolve and attain Fruitions. Just remember and incline, then cycle up and see what happens. If one Fruition is good, more are better, in general terms, assuming that was a Fruition, which it sounds a lot like, but repeat and see.

Keep in touch,

Daniel
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Constance Casey, modified 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 12:31 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 12:31 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 50 Join Date: 9/21/09 Recent Posts
"There is just life happening whether I worry about it or not."

Yes. Keep going.

Constance
April V, modified 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 4:37 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 3:05 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/7/10 Recent Posts
Thanks again, Daniel.
I don't have conditions to go for 2nd path at the moment, therefore I cannot update much about my practice. Fruitions would be good ,of course, but I don't seem to have control to attain them. If I couldn't during review cycling, I expect them anymore at the bottom of present cycle.

I just feel at ease with everything. It seems I've been depressed, but now it is gone. Worrying about past and future is gone. Equanimous awareness stays present whenever the mind is not busy with thinking. I lost an interest to make my ,,self'' right and other people wrong. This diminished sense of ,,self'' makes relationships a lot easier. The most interesting thing I notice is synchronization of inner processes with outer events, which makes everything seem delusional.

Until I go to retreat, which will not happen soon, perhaps I won't make more updates on this thread.
Trent , modified 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 10:39 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 10:39 AM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 361 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
April V:
I don't have conditions to go for 2nd path at the moment


I challenge you to rethink that. Going from 1st to 2nd path seems to not take most people a long time or much effort at all, especially if they power through it after getting 1st (using the momentum of 1st to hit 2nd; plus, concentration strength is quite potent for a while after a path moment).

Trent
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 9:41 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/8/10 9:41 PM

RE: Report of my stream-entry

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I second that.

D