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Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats

Author: Abe_Dunkelheit
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

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Assuming Daniel is right in his views,

which he holds in his combative way he is not going to have changed in any case,

(say never never),

but assuming he is right,

and I do not have any qualms with it,

because I do not have any investments into beliefs to the contrary,

but if he is right,

it would pretty much completely crash the whole edifice of what is currently going under the label ‘Buddhism’;

it would mean an Arahat is still enslaved to most of the 10 fetters;

and it brings me back to the point that I do not see much of a point in the whole enlightenment business;

from a utilitarian point of view,

I do not see for what it is good to be an Arahat;

or put differently:

would USD 10 million on the account not be of greater benefit?!

*

I had the impression that 'Buddhists' regard craving as that which holds the sense of I AM-ness, the sense of who I am; but if there is still craving in the Arahat even after having seen through the sense there is an independent observer --- that pretty much crashes everything I ever heard about it; b/c that would mean the sense of I AM-ness is still there even after the realization that there is no I AM in the first place;

that turns pretty much every spiritual teacher out there into an impostor;

what Daniel is saying is something like

‘you can have unprotected sex and worship the Devil and still being a good Christian,’

which is a cool thing!

Haha...

I would even go so far and say that if Daniel is right Buddhism is outright dead;

because it simply invalidates the attempt to pretend that there is a closed system of familiarities within which you can operate meaningfully,

and we are back in full circle to the fact of total existential uncertainty --- the last word in all questions, so it seems!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/27/08 12:12 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
"... but if there is still craving in the Arahat even after having seen through the sense there is an independent observer --- that pretty much crashes everything I ever heard about it; b/c that would mean the sense of I AM-ness is still there even after the realization that there is no I AM in the first place..."

Hello, Abe. Why do you suppose that in order to be fully realized you have to give up your most human attributes?

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/27/08 12:45 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Hi Chris,

I wrote:

"...that pretty much crashes everything I ever heard about it..."

which is not a supposition,

but an observation!

I am ASTONISHED, so to speak, about Daniel's claims, because they contradict everyting I ever heard about it.

If Daniel is right in his views,

based on the principle that something cannot be both itself and its opposite,

this means pretty much every commentator out there must be wrong in their views about 'Arahats'!

It is as simple as that!

*

I was also just thinking that Daniel rejects all limiting models, which implies that an Arahat is only limited by the conditions that happen to condition him; to the extent that these conditions are unique, the Arahat will be unique; hence the Arahat will be able to do what his conditions allow him to do; and will not be limited by anything else;

at best an Arahat should be less conditioned (read: have more degrees of freedom) than the average person;

to the extent that the Arahat's conditions are unkowable his action will be unpredictable;

so an Arahat could be a serial killer

IF

his conditions are such that they give rise to certain killing urges;

we basically don't know what any given Arahat can or cannot
do b/c we do not know his conditions;

and accordingly to Daniel all limiting models designed to predict the actions and abilities and conditions of an Arahat are

WRONG,

so we are left with an

NOT KNOWING ANYTHING,

really,

about the 'Arahat',

because every single one is different,

so this totally crashes all traditional views!!!

I am only pointing this out; am reasoning it through; I do not have any problem with it, or suppose anything; I simply find it all extremely ASTONISHING!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/27/08 9:53 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Abe,

First, the Buddha teach Dharma (what means in this case reality) and not Buddhism. Buddhism has to take care of previous masters, delivered suttas, traditions etc. That's why I think that traditions wherein the Dharma stay has to go to a scientific separation process. The same happens with the medicine of the Middle Ages. After this process (that is actually not finished now) we got the modern medicine of today.

It is also important because the Dharma is not only for religious people. If I give a modern western enlightened (in sense of "well-educated") person e. g. the book of Mahasi Sayadaw "The Progress of Insight",it is very likely, that, if he reads the first sentence, he will close it because he thinks that is only an extreme Cult. (That sentence is "Homage to the Blesses One, the Worthy One, the Fully Enlightened One")

I think after the scientific separation process we will have an easier way, a better understandable way, a better knowledge of the benefits and may be a better world too because more people would be enlightened (in sense of "liberated") etc.

> I do not see for what it is good to be an Arahat;
> or put differently:
> would USD 10 million on the account not be of greater benefit?!

I am not enlightened but I can easy imagine the benefits:
You got an basic deep understanding what you are and what not (a very important right view). And with this new knowledge there will be a complete change of such structures of the mind which was based of your old wrong view.

The enlightened persons here could describe the benefits better than me. I imagine e. g. the following:
- no fear of existence
- a better ethik (which means a better together, may be if we have enough enlightened persons we could overcome the war)

Paticca

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 2:36 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

Here are a number of bogus myths and falsehoods about arahats; [they are] simply being untrue:

Arahats must ordain within 7 days of becoming an arahat in the Buddhist order of monks or they will die.

Arahats cannot feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other "bad" emotion.

*

Bhante Vimalaramsi at the Chuang Yen Monstery in New York (Feb 25, 2008) during his Dhamma Talk on MN 148 The Six Sets of Six said the following:

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-6699525614694657028

See from 7:00min --- “All of the fetters will disappear if they are an Arahat; that means they … never again have doubt arise in their mind; never, they know the path, they know that is right; they experience the cessation of all hatred; that will not arise in their mind again; they experience the cessation of all lust; that will not arise in their mind again; they will let go of --- restlessness will disappear, no more restlessness, more slope and torpor; no more desire to experience higher realms; you lose all pride; no pride will ever arise again; and all ignorance disappears. Those are the ten fetters; when you have the fruition of Arahatship that means those things will never arise again.”

See from 9:20min --- “What happens for people if they are laymen, and whey become an Arahat; they have a decision that needs to be made, and I know a awful lot of people don’t like that idea, but that is what it is. You either become a monk or in seven days you will die from cyclical existence but you won’t be reborn again – so you make a decision what you want to do.”

See from 10:50min --- “When you attain Nibbana you don’t have any more craving arise ever again; … ;

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 2:39 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

So where do these direct contradictions leave us?! It would be hilarious if it was not so disconcerting; after 2500 yours there is no consents about most fundamental questions as to what or what not Arahatship entails.

Daniel’s recommendation to “get enlightened to a high degree,” as “only will end the debate” is fair enough, but still, I am left with great ASTONISHMENT as to the contradiction b/w highly accomplished meditation practitioners! Are they all making up the rules as they go along?!

I cannot know who is right, but I can know that Daniel and BV cannot be both right at the same time; at least one (if not both) cannot be as accomplished has he claims to be; or is self-deceived, or tells deliberate lies;

and that is SHOCKING!!!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 3:13 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Hi Paticca,

I definitely agree that there is a need for a 'scientific separation process' with regard to what the Dhamma is and what it is not!

As to your imagination of what the benefits are of becoming an Arahat; there is certainly still fear, and other undesirable things, otherwise Daniel could not have written in his article that it is a bogus myth that

"Arahats cannot feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other ‘bad’ emotion."

Notice especially:

“the mind and body of the being that has realized the Truth of Things is completely bound up in the same conditions and causality as before.”

Daniel holds “the process of falsely imputing a ‘self’ from the sensations that make up the body, mind, and world has stopped [in the Arahat] because these sensations have been directly perceived as they are [by the Arahat]” --- BUT, and that seems to be the important point, this does not stop these sensations from arising!!!

What is then the advantage of Arahatship, after all?!

Nanavira Thera writes that “suicides – with the attainment of arahatta - were fairly common amongst the bhikkhus in the Bhuddas day.” [L. 94]

HOW ENCOURAGING!!! < I have a cynical day.>

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 3:20 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Dear Abe,

Once again I think it's worthwhile for someone to point out--and not because I think my comment is going to change your way of thinking, but rather because I think other people may already be thinking this--is that your simple dichotomizing logic just doesn't hold up. The "this vs. that" model of reasoning, especially in this case, just isn't sophisticated or useful enough to lead to anything helpful. Your assumption that both can't be right, that one is right and one is wrong, is to me, the only SHOCKING thing I can see in your arguments. More shocking, is that piting people's views about arhantship against one another, really doesn't do much to support one in awakening. All it does is stir up theoretical controversy, about which, only a few here are qualified to say much about. The rest is projection, interpretation, idealizing, and posturing.

A developmental perspective--one that recognizes evolving worldviews--or even a perspective that can conceive of their being multiple ways of interpreting the same change would re-frame the whole conversation in such a way as to immediately make your reasoning obsolete. And again, I don't say this because I think I'm going to change your mind, but because there are others here who are already able to see the debate in these terms, and hence for the them there is no debate, at least not in the way you're framing it.

My suggestions would be to echo Daniel's, and suggest that the benefits of awakening are to be known by those who have awakened. It's easy to dismiss that point, as you've done several times, but no amount of arguing or working your thoughts out here, will do it for you.

Best,

-Vince Horn

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 3:20 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Nanavira Thera writes In L. 50 :

I venture to think that if you actually read through the whole of the Vinaya and the Suttas you would be aghast at some of the things a real live sotápanna is capable of. As a bhikkhu he is capable of suicide (but so also is an arahat); he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules (M. 48: i,323-5; A. III,85: i,231-2); he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthisáriputta -- A. VI,60: iii,392-9); he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy, stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness (A. II,16: i,96). As a layman he is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of the five precepts (though as soon as he has done so he recognizes his fault and repairs the breach, unlike the puthujjana who is content to leave the precepts broken).

There are some things in the Suttas that have so much shocked the Commentator that he has been obliged to provide patently false explanations (I am thinking in particular of the arahat's suicide in M. 144: iii,266 and in the Saláyatana Samy. 87: iv,55-60 and of a drunken sotápanna in the Sotápatti Samy. 24: v,375-7). What the sotápanna is absolutely incapable of doing is the following (M. 115: iii,64-5):

To take any determination (sankhára) as permanent,
To take any determination as pleasant,
To take any thing (dhamma) as self,
To kill his mother,
To kill his father,
To kill an arahat,
Maliciously to shed a Buddha's blood,
To split the Sangha,
To follow any teacher other than the Buddha.

All these things a puthujjana can do.

*

Daniel writes:

"peaking in generalities, realized beings are capable of doing, saying, feeling and thinking anything that non-realized beings are capable of. "

So does this mean Arahats CAN actually kill their fathers, mothers, their fellow arahats, and even Buddhas?!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 3:25 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Thank you, Vince.

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 4:22 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
"I am ASTONISHED, so to speak, about Daniel's claims, because they contradict everyting I ever heard about it."

And as we all know, Abe, what really matters in investigating these things is what we hear others say about them. Not what we experience directly. Not what we find through meditation. Not what the evidence shows us. Nope, what matters is what other people say.

Bye, Abe.

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 4:26 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Vince,

with all due respect; what kind of thinking then would reconcile the irreconcilable?! It is all fine and well to take into account developmental perspectives; but does this mean in New York it is ‘you die in 7 days” and in Northern Alabama it is ‘you do not die in seven days’, because the people in New York are no yet as developed as the people in Northern Alabama?!

What exactly do you mean by “multiple ways of interpreting” that would make my reasoning obsolete?! Are you thinking in terms of exoteric vs. esoteric resp. literal vs. symbolic meanings?! So that when one person talks about ‘you have to die in 7 days’ this is symbolical, but means literally ‘you do not have to die in 7 days’? Or are you talking in terms of a dichotomy of laity vs. monk elitism, so that you would allow a monk like BV to use ‘expedient means’ [euphemism for lying], a kind of Dhamma politics, to spread interest in the Dhamma across the laity?!

Also, I am not debating anything here; I do not have any investment into any of these beliefs on Arahats that Daniel disputes; but he wrote the essay or didn’t he?! I do not have any opinion about who is right or wrong, or what an Arahat can or cannot do; I am also not “piting” [?] people’s views about arahatship against one another, all I am making is a COMPARISON!!! I am trying to get a grasp on all the CLAIMS on ‘Arahats’ by sifting through the literature. And these claims are very CONTRADICTORY.

I do not see at all why you would say that “all it does is stir up theoretical controversy, about which, only a few here are qualified to say much about. The rest is projection, interpretation, idealizing, and posturing.”

There is something like rational communication; and this does not have to stir up anything! As I said, I do not have made up my mind and am totally open as to what you and others have to say; how best to look at these contradictions I stumbled across.

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 4:30 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

I am also not dismissing the point that “the benefits of awakening are to be known by those who have awakened.” I AM WONDERING what these benefits could possibly be, b/c Daniel denies all the benefits that are generally pointed out to be there (like cessation of the 10 fetters) in his essay to be the benefits! So what are the benefits?! ---

I would have been fine if you had said something along the line:

“I do not know; and Daniel knows but he cannot explain them in a way that it would satisfy your curious mind; so you have to believe him (like I do) that there are benefits (and it is not the one’s people tend to believe in like he expounds in his essay) that make it worth to put all your time & effort into the awakening practice.”

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 5:14 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
"I am trying to get a grasp on all the CLAIMS on ‘Arahats’ by sifting through the literature. And these claims are very CONTRADICTORY. "

Then do what people here have been exhorting you to do -- practice! Find out for yourself and stop the swirling and confusion that plagues your mind. The ONLY way to get to the root of these dilemmas is to experience the Dharma for yourself.

Over and out.

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 6:04 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Chris,

if you had not heard what others had to say you would not even know your own name, let alone the Dhamma or anything else that matters about the Buddha; but you certainly have the right to deny rational communication,

best,

Abe

*

I really have to wonder; there is Daniel who writes essays, and there are monks who give Dhamma talks, but when a guy like me comes along who actually reads the essays and listens to the Dhamma talks and does active enquiries, compares notes, makes observations, aks questions etc. he is faulted by the rest of the community.

*

It appears to me of the utmost importance to gain a perspective on what 'Arahatship' entails; that is not a theoretical question at all; I am not impressed that you would take no issue with the suggestion that a lay person attaining Arahatship would have to die within 7 days unless he ordains as a monk; I know --- "go and experience directly"! Haha... but wait, we know Daniel is an Arahat and he confirms to us that we will not die; we are not as stupid as Abe; we have mastered the art of "multiple ways of interpreting" and therefore applaud BV's affirmation that we all will die when not ordaining; and of course there is nothing wrong in in BV saying 99% do not do the meditation the Buddha taught, because it is all the same; hello, Abe, .... mediate more and you too will master the art of "multiple ways of interpreting"; and anyway even if we die --- everything will be alright; b/c that proofs we are Arahats!!! Get it? It's a win:win situation, no matter what! We are always right! Everybody is right, just do not question that! Meditate upon it. We of course do not know for what this is good to be an Arahat, but we know that it is good for whatever we believe it is good, but it is not what you can understand! Meditate upon it... and everything will be just fine!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 6:05 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Abe,

I don't simply believe Daniel, I followed the practices and realized them for myself. I found his models helpful, and I've found that they hold up to reality testing better then any of the other models that explain the benefits of awakening (at all of their various stages). I am not an Arhant yet, but I know enough about the path (nearly up to that point) to know that much of it is simply dogma and doesn't hold up to reality testing. All of the dogma you referenced about Sotapanna's is completely ridiculous.

Though there are benefits to awakening, things DO fall away, and at a fundamental level there is less craving/aversion/etc. that isn't the same as not feeling the full range of human emotions. But this isn't theory to me Abe, this is the years of dedicated practice, and of deciding that theory-alone wasn't enough. If you don't want to wake up, no worries. If you do, get to it. No amount of theorizing will do it for you, as several very smart, and very realized people have already told you here on this forum.

Best,

-Vince

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 6:27 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

But I am practicing at least 2 hours per day; and have been doing this for good 4 months now; there is THEORY and PRACTICE; so what is your issue in me trying to gain a perspective on what Arahatship entails?!

And even if I did not mediate, what I do not do, I repeat I DO MEDITATE, but even if I did not meditate, I still could become an Arahat, because the Buddha confirms that next to serenity & insigt there is another way, which is SEIZURE BY AGITATION ABOUT THE TEACHING (see An 4:170; II 156-57)

But who knows, maybe I am just an unlucky guy and that is one of the fake Suttas! So I hedge my bet and meditate; but I will certainly not stop enquiring only because you guys twist and whine like Christian Bible fundamentalists.

*

Hokai, Daniel, Vince,

You have, of course, the right to deny rational communication and censor me from the Dhamma Overground and turn back to the quiet times when there was 1 posting per day; I do not take offense;

but I would recommend you guys to have a look into the mirror from time to time:

"I do this because the false dogmas hinder and obscure the development of wisdom that comes from seeing life directly as it is." (Daniel)

Sure, but Vince tells me that there are not false dogmas ---- there are only "multiple ways of interpreting" things! And Hokai applauds; and Chris is appalled!

And I still do not know whether I will or will not have to die in case I attain Arahatship, which I still do not know what it is good for, but I at least am assurred in Daniel's essay it is not good for what people tend to think it is good for, which is ok when you see it in terms of a 'developmental perspective"; but then Vince's "multiple ways of interpreting" things makes me less confident I actually understand what Daniel reassures his readers in his essay; but it does not matter --- because there is no contradiction. So just meditate!

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 6:45 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Abe_Dunkelheit

Vince,

That is a helpful reply, but as I also pointed out a couple of times I DO MEDITATE; I am somewhat confused about you guys or maybe I do miss the point of this forum; there is PRACTICE and THEORY; all my "theoretical" question ALWAYS have a practical background; besides, it is not theoretical at all whether one will or will not die or will or will not lose one's fetters! So I would hope you correct your views I AM NOT THEORY ONLY [I have expererienced all the stages up to stage 9] --- but of course I cannot meditate in this forum; I can ask questions about things that bother me about the Dhamma etc;

granted you guys are highly realized, I am happy for you and happy for me that you are, but there is something not quite right in the way communication takes place here,

so maybe it is best you guys tell me what you are willing to discuss / not discuss, b/c I would have thought my questions are all very relevant, but if you do not think so, that is fine, just tell me the limits of what can / can not be discussed.

Best,

Abe

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 7:06 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Thank you Abe. We will be working on putting together some helpful guidelines for discussion soon. And please understand I'm not saying that you don't practice at all, but rather that your interest in theory seems extremely excessive (much of which doesn't seem to have an impact on practice, including whether or not you think you'll die if you attain arhantship, which based on what you've said about your practice you are in no danger of doing anytime soon). We will hammer out some guidelines to clarify that, but for the time being, please tone it down.

Best,

-Vince

RE: Some thoughts on Daniel’s Essay about Arahats
Answer
6/28/08 8:48 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Abe,

> As to your imagination of what the benefits are of becoming an Arahat; there is certainly still fear,...

I don't mean that you have no fear anymore but e. g. all fear depends of a wrong view of a self will disappear. Every insight even a normal worldly insight will change your mind (even a simple thought will do that).


> Nanavira Thera writes that “suicides – with the attainment of arahatta - were fairly common...

If that is true and this arahats are not terminally ill, I think they have a theoretical lack of moral otherwise he would not do that. This shows me that a parallel theoretical education is important too. I think if someone have a simple mind he can awake but the mind will stay simple even now.

As in every Knowledge you need to know the benefits to have a motivation and you need a theoretical and practical education. There is no rational reason why not to ask for benefits in Awakening. More, my own experience shows me it is dangerous not to ask. Most Cults will tell you "Follow only our way and you will get it." This is only blind faith. If you find the right people then you have good luck only.

Fortunately in the Theravada-Suttas are many benefits told because they knew that not all people are motivated by faith. I think why here in this forum faith should be the only motivation is because the people don't know to explain the benefits well.

To me this is really a strong motivation to go on with the pactice because if I am enlightened I will workout it exactly.

vjhorn does it a little bit (thanks):
>Though there are benefits to awakening, things DO fall away, and at a fundamental level there is less craving/aversion/etc...

Paticca