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Emotions
Answer
11/24/08 12:46 AM
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Emotions. We all, evey one of us, are blessed and cursed with them. That said, we all seem to be a bit afraid of them, and I notice dharma students seem to be more leery of emotions than most. Now, I'm sure that's a drastic over-simplification of the true situation, but why when we generate strong emotions do we dharma students tend to back off? Is it because we think being constantly calm is what an enlightened person does? Is that really true? How do you, as a Buddhist practitioner, deal with strong emotions?

If this topic is a duplicate then moderators, please remove it and direct me to the original.

RE: Emotions
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11/24/08 2:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Great, now I have Areosmith's "Sweet Emotions" going through my head!

Before we get into this, could you say what's the goal of these questions?

RE: Emotions
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11/24/08 2:53 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The first goal, if there must be one, is really about if and how we're managing (coping with?) the natural human emotional range. Are we practicing to eliminate our emotions? Control our emotions? If it's not that, what are we doing in our practice in regard to strong emotional reactions?

Second, I've been to many a sanga, heard many a teacher. There seems to be an unstated rule at play among them: strong emotions are unseemly. They're "bad." So why is that? I think it has partly to do with the models people carry around in their heads, but maybe I'm missing something else.

Third, David (haquan) and I had a minor altercation on these message boards yesterday evening and this morning I was reading the reactions of some of the other posters afterward. David and I have exchanged messages since and we're fine. In fact. I think we ended up on a more direct and honest footing with each other, which often happens after such altercations.

How about you, betawave?

RE: Emotions
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11/24/08 4:01 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm glad goal three is accomplished! I was worried that talking about emotions in a separate thread (when the topic seemed to be related to the "intentionallity" thread) was going to expand the conflict and still not address it head-on.

I'm going to have to think a bit more beyond that.

RE: Emotions
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11/24/08 4:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Practice has taught me that the best way to address anything is head on, with honesty. I don't always do that, of course, but I try.

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 1:21 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this.

I think the critical distinction is between a natural emotion and a reaction. The former has a sense of being grounded with the heart and compassion. The latter has a sense of being founded in ignorance, anger, fear, hurt, etc.

Strong emotions can belong to either category, but it's sort of like playing with fire. If I really know if an emotion is natural or a reaction, I think it's best for myself to show restraint. I would say about 95% of the time I'm glad I bit my tongue, so it seems like a decent guideline.

I haven't been in that many Sanga situations, but I think I know what you mean. I'd say about half of it is compassion (trying not to intrude on other's space and practice) and the other half is a holier-than-thou display. Does that sound about right? It might be the lesser of two evils. Imagine a retreat that was not-silent and full of displays of strong emotion... things would fall apart. That said, there can be a kind of repression reaction that happens when any group has to stifle their normal range of emotions for too long. It can get ugly, sometimes taking the form of demonizing the other or outsider.

I guess a lot of this deals with the morality/psychology side of the practice. Emotions really are onions and some great thing happen when the layers are peeled away.

When it comes to insight practice, it seems to be more about seeing emotions come and go rather than eliminating them (although they do seem to become attenuated with growing insight).

I guess that's all I got.

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 1:22 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Should read: "If I really DON'T know..."

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 1:25 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The sentence above should read "If I really DON'T know if an emotion is natural or a reaction..."

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 3:34 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Emotions can be great objects of investigation just like anything else. However I suspect one reason strong emotion is downplayed has to do with creating a safe container for practice. Much like guarding your senses and taking precepts, tempering emotion can help protect practice from from long periods of ego absorption. The Buddha placed emphasis on cultivating wholesome mind states and abandoning unwholesome ones. Handling the full brunt of challenging emotion skillfully can be of great benefit but I suspect only advanced practitioners can do so consistently without losing touch with process and indulging in content.

Lee

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 4:37 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yes, all true, leemore. But you can't put your emotions on hold forever. Or can you?

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 1:31 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
check out this nutter, he hit delete on something and got totally rewired:

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au

i'm all for it, makes sense to me. but it aint buddhism, thats for sure

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 3:07 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
that text is too small and the pages too long. what are the cliff notes?

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 5:17 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
and i thought *i* had add..

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/aprecisofactualfreedom.htm might be what you're looking for

RE: Emotions
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11/25/08 5:19 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Vipassana for marines? Among other things, he knocks down a straw man of escapist eastern religions, and asks "How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?"

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/actualfreedom3.htm

RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 2:05 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Odd, that. It looks cult-like.

But back to my question -- is putting emotions on hold, or avoiding them altogether somehow, what we should want to do? If, as leemore says, they are objects of investigation, doesn't that point to the need to maintain emotions at some level? Or, as I asserted at some point here, aren't emotions part of what makes us human beings? How does all that fit within the practice of Buddhism?

And David, please feel free to join in. I assume you're still around?

RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 5:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Gurdjieff had a prohibition against expressing negative emotions in his teaching, and along with "self-remembering" it provided the "second shock" to one's system. I think there's something to this, with some qualifications.

Incidentally, Jack Kornfield has a lot to say on this subject (especially insofar as the specific questions that Chris raises) in "A Path With a Heart" in the chapter called "True Self vs. No-Self." I can paraphrase later if people are interested.

Emotions arise from the older parts of our brains, and are linked with both our physiology and our "karma" on a collective level (as a species). It seems to me that emotions not only provide motivations, and direct our behavior on a social level, but they may also contain useful information about both ourselves and the object of the particular emotion. While in insight work emotions may be objects of investigation as far as the three characteristics goes, dealing with them on a practical level is part of the moral discipline.

I work with this stuff a lot, and I believe it's important that people feel their emotions - I just think that you shouldn't act out on them. My process, if I'm experiencing a strong emotion is to ask myself "Where is this coming from? Does this situation remind me of someone or something?" (A knowledge of common defense mechanisms is helpful here). Many times this has lead to insight about myself, the situation or person, or both. Sometimes the answer is no, and then I can count on it being an accurate intuition (like the sense of danger). Finally, communicating emotions (without acting on them) can be helpful if done skillfully. Instead of, "You $%*#@!" say "When you did or said ____ I felt angry, because ____" (As long as who you are communicating with has similar skills).

I work with

RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 6:43 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
cmarti,

i dont understand how emotions being objects of investigation points to the need to maintain them at some level. the reason we're investigating them is due to their already being there (as opposed to being there because they're being maintained), doesn't have anything to do with trying to make them there or not there.

why does it matter if we're human beings or not? who we trying to fool?

in another sense, many emotions are painful and i would like them to not be there. i have no qualms in admitting i'm trying to do away with the more involved, conflicted aspects of my experience and things have gotten better on this front to a noticeable degree (causation or correlation? don't know).

--

haquan,

strongly agree. the experience of emotions is truly telling, and its value in doing what i want to do with my life is priceless.

--

everyone,

hey, have you guys ever distinguished between emotions and (don't know what to call it really) 'surges' in the flow that don't translate into clear emotions but are a kind of on-going experience of feeling ('underneath', if you will)? when my mind chatter dies down the latter becomes more apparent. anyone resonate?

RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 8:23 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
This is an interesting question, one that I've often pondered for the very reasons that people mention here: emotions are a central feature of our existence. In order to add to the conversation I would invoke the simple 3 trainings model, not as a ridgid divider but rather as a helpful means of making theoreticaly and practical distinctions. Emotions are clearly involved in all three trainings, ethics, concentration, & insight. W/r/t concentration and insight the various techniques are fairly clear about how to work with emotions. With concentration we largely avoid them in favor of the primary object and in insight we treat them like any other object, noticing the 3 characteristics in emotions. Where do they arise (do they have a physical manifestation, a mental manifestation)?, How do they persist? How do they change? What mind states accompany or follow them? What thoughts accompany or follow them? is there clinging, aversion, or lack of seeing associated with them? Emotions are objects, like everything else, worthy of our investigation and containing the seeds of wisdom and insight.

In the realm of ethics, my personal opinion is that the Buddhist framework, while generally helpful, is massively lacking. The precepts and suggestions regarding wholesome actions and thoughts are useful, but I've personally found Western psychology and practices associated with that to be far more helpful when looking at emotions. The contemporary notion of neurosis and shadow-work all stems from Western psychology, and is largely lacking in Buddhist psychology. Personally, I've started dabbling in particular shadow practices that work with unwanted behaviors, feelings, etc. that are based on NLP technologies. I've found them extremely helpful in actually changing particular patterns of unhelpful emotional responses.


RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 8:25 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
So, in short: I absolutely think that there's value in dealing with our emotional life (which is so vast and rich) from many different perspectives, not just the ethical framework of the Buddhist tradition. And, it is ok to work with our emotions at the level of content, so long as we know that this is what we're doing. Clearly, doing this is not the same as insight, and likewise insight is not the same as doing emotional content work. Both are helpful, I think, in living a full and meaningful life. :-D

RE: Emotions
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11/26/08 8:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
And to add a simple observation in how skills in each can in fact support each other: I've noticed that because of my meditation training I can now engage in NLP techniques (one in particular) with much more mental clarity and precision. It's much easier for me to steady my attention and do these interior practices, and I think because of that I've had relative success with them. There are other examples of the overlap's between them, but this is just to point out that the three trainings are intimately related and can support one another a great deal.