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More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/18/09 3:52 PM
Forum: The Big Issues

There have been more issues raised about people claiming whatever, usually stream entry but occasionally higher paths or stages of enlightenment, and these issues are claimed by those who raise them to have caused themselves to spend less time here, and, given that these are some talented and knowledgeable practitioners, this a loss of some kind.

Some of the issues raised are:
1) That by keeping this place open and informal, people can claim whatever and be embraced regardless of the validity of their claim without much validation, questioning, skepticism, application of standard or non-standard criteria, and the like.
2) That some of the more recently attained may be too quick to jump to the decision that others have also.

There have been previously raised issues that raise contradictory points to these, such as some more seasoned members being to quick to judge claims as being false without investigating whether or not the person they were accusing of falsely claiming an attainment had, in fact, actually done it.

I personally am somewhat loose on the issue, though things that I think need clarification are sorting out common mimics, such as the A&P and stream entry, and the like. I am not so particularly interested in people claiming whatever so long as they are not too terribly fooling themselves and giving bad advice based on their misconceptions to others who come here looking for good guidance on progressing on whatever front.

I hope that people will join in this discussion to help flush these things out in an open and productive way.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/18/09 6:32 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Probably the most helpful thing would be to make sure to qualify any 'judgment' with phrases like, I'm not sure, its hard to tell from a relatively short post, but, have you considered, it sounds like, my take is, etc along with solid encouragement that progress is being made and keep practicing. That and asking clarifying questions before giving an opinion.

Hope this is helpful.

Ed

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 3:49 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Author: Adam_West

Yeah, the 'can do' approach, I find very appropriate and empowering, yet it can be very problematic given human psycho-dynamic needs for success, achievement and social validation, and the well documented tenancy towards fantasy and grandiosity in both children and adults. I estimate 90% of the claims documented on this site represent this kind of psychological phenomena in conjunction with theoretical misunderstanding due to lack of wide exposure to reading materials from different traditions and teachers and insufficient personal experience in practice, rather than actual real fruition of a significant nature. That is not to say we 'can't do', just that most evidence points to decades and not months or a few years. Furthermore, in an environment of balanced robust scrutiny - which is not present here, for the most part - it clearly would not hold up in the light of day. Which is fine, no harm done, for the most part, as we don't want to oppress or diminish the very spark we are trying to foster either. Clearly, we see yet again the Buddha's wisdom in a middle path of aspiration, 'can do' empowerment and robust reality testing and personal discrimination.

There are many things both good and bad with the traditional spiritual formats, one thing useful is the quality control necessary to respond to the inevitable forces of human psychology.

With time, the Overground seems to be finding a good middle path between support and stifling the 'can do' approach. And like any system, it will and is in a process of self-correction, so I don't think we need apply much agent intervention.

Seems to be coming along quite nicely! :-P

In kind regards,

Adam.

*Edited* for spelling.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 5:24 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
a good question you raise, but one that probably should be spelled out further to be useful beyond speculation. whatcha got in mind? what are the indicators to you that 90% (or so) of claims made here are bunk?

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 12:41 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Author: Adam_West

Hi Tarin!

I wouldn't go quite so far as to phrase the claims as bunk. Rather, perhaps a little too optimistic in interpretation. :-P

In kind regards,

Adam.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 2:18 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Stating you have experienced a path invites all kinds of reactions from others. To a certain extent that should be expected.

I used to assume that path moments must be the same for everyone and it is only in the past couple of years that I realized (so to speak) that not every one experienced them the way I did :-( Imagine that. I don't at all feel qualified to judge someone else's attainment at this point (and most definitely not through a few posts on a forum).

The power of this site is in its ability to encourage and help people in their practice. I don't think this place would be where I would want to verify a path. We live at a time when there are many very good and accessible teachers - so I hope anyone who feels they have gone through stream entry or another path would have that verified by one of these teachers.

-Chuck

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 2:40 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
As one of the recent claimers, I believe being very open about feelings regarding attainment could be very beneficial for the community. More accurate self-assessments for future practitioners may be possible with more data points available not only of the experiences in question, but also the various feelings and thoughts regarding those experiences. Especially as those same practitioners are encouraged to share openly as they continue to learn. I believe my own practice would have benefitted if I had been less shy about describing my experiences and related thoughts and feelings 6 months ago. Perhaps any illusion of attainment would have been dispelled then instead of now. I know very well I will be engaged in the fool's journey for some time. Perhaps the mishaps of the fools of today will benefit the fools of tomorrow.

I've come to enjoy entertaining fantasies of a time in the not-too-distant future when enlightenment won't require any more from one seeking it than what is required to earn an associate's degree. I believe that this community could help bring that fantasy closer to reality. The wider perspective of the old hands will be necessary for this community to realize its potential. It saddens me to learn that my own precociousness may have caused the loss of some of that wisdom.

Keith

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 10:31 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
hi adam,

you know, my original phrasing was 'for lack of better word, bunk' but then i decided to simplify. turns out you had another word in mind, 'optimistic', which does carry a different meaning, but for the purpose of my inquiry they are both suitable. given that, lemme rephrase: what are the indicators to you that 90% (or so) of claims made here are optimistic? is it the descriptions that don't line up with what you regard as being the paths? is it the writing (both content and writing style) and online behaviour of claimants that make you dubious? or is it simply the sheer numbers that leaves you sceptical?

it could be argued that claims, particularly accurate ones, need no affirmation but i disagree. peer review is important. i remember when i first got stream-entry, i _knew_ it, without a shadow of a doubt*, and yet i wanted to know if my teacher thought so too. after a while, he did, but somehow i still wasn't satisfied. eventually though, after about a week of almost non-stop compulsive scrutiny, i was (got too pointless to argue with the constant stage shifts and cessation-resets). i learnt a lot from that week or so of observation and conversation, as well as what continued unfolded during the next few weeks: easy access to samatha states (inc the formless strata), the next a&p, the next path-completion, all clear as friggin day. what i learnt then for myself then and what i got out of talking to my teacher and some other folks, is most of what informs me about how to assess others' descriptions here, which means that what i am able to call may be limited in scope but is probably also accurate as hell.

*there was a whole lot of doubt but it didnt cast a shadow, which was unnerving

(cont.)

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 10:35 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
i've called a couple people's attainments here, both path-wise and jhanic, based solely on their descriptions. not that my calling them changes whether they were what they were or not, but i call things for other people when they look clearly spot-on to me (like maya81's did, for example). the others i pass over in silence, because i have nothing noteworthy to contribute (but hopefully somebody else will, if there is anything at all to say). now, of all the claims presented on this board, i have had something to say about 10% or less of them. the other 90% (or so) of claims have been mostly 'i dont know's, with a couple 'man that seems unlikely's. but here you are, saying 90% seems optimistic, which is a far huger number than what i've been used to thinking to myself, and i want to know how you arrived to that. capisci? emoticon

tarin

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/19/09 10:49 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
chuck,

im with you here.. i think.

now that you realise this, that other people who experience things differently from you might be experiencing the same thing (in a manner of speaking), you can't say to them, 'no that's not it' ... but are you not still able to say to those who experienced things very similarly to you, 'yes, that is it'? or would you go as far as to think that just because someone experiences something soooo similarly to you, it is still not grounds to determine that they experienced the same thing you did (such as, say, a path moment)?

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 2:09 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I think the big question that comes up for me is: is this the right place to make and have claims of attainment assessed? My feeling is No, it isn't. That said, I think there are plenty of great people on these boards, who if they knew enough about a persons experience (not just several posts to a threaded discussion) probably could come up with some helpful assessments offline. Also, as Chuck says there are many, many skilled teachers out there who deal with this stuff all the time. I have found those teachers to be extraordinarily helpful in figuring out how to work with where I'm at currently (whether or not they've been willing to tell me explicitly where they think that is).

So, my feeling is that this really isn't the best place to make assessments of other people's practice, though I'm not saying that at times (especially leading up to 1st path) assessments can't be useful for some people. But as chuck says, there is such a huge variance in terms of how people describe (and perhaps even experience) the stages of the path, that for everyone to be throwing in their interpretation of someone's "attainments" is in some ways demeaning to the point of attainments. And, I think as Adam says people are becoming overly optimistic about their claims (as our some of us in our assessments). Again, this could be due to inexperience on our part in assessing, but in either case I think the onus falls directly on those of using making the assessments, and being looked up to as knowing what we're talking about, to be responsible in how we address people's descriptions of their experience.

Cause in the end, someone believing that they are a stream-winner or that they're in equanimity or whatever (when it's more likely they crossed the A&P or are in the 3 characteristics / A&P) ends up leading both to a misunderstanding of the maps and the territory.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 2:39 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
As to the possibility that many people are too optimistic in placing themselves on the maps, while I won't try to evaluate the site itself or its members, there is good evidence that people in general predictably do evaluate themselves as being in the upper percentile of whatever. Whether it is in evaluating their driving skill, intelligence, future grades, the superiority of their kids, whatever. I am would be guilty of that last if it weren't for the fact that my kids truly are superior. ;-) Why would enlightenment be any different.

In the end that is probably a good thing. It keeps us going and is mostly self correcting.

Ed

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 2:50 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
This community isn't about assessing your realization or stage in practice, though bringing more clarity to early stages and therefore employing stage-specific effort can be product of conversations that take place here. However, a lot of self-deception, as well as mutual deception, can take place as well, embedded in this already virtual, avatar-populated realm. Offline, in-person, actual relationship with skilled, seasoned teacher(s) and other practitioners isn't optional, even for post-awakening stages, especially when it comes to "claims" and "attainments".

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 10:41 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hi Tarin,
So far, I haven't been confronted with that situation. So I am going to have to delve into some speculation: Yes, for me it is still not grounds for making a determination. Why do I need to make such a determination? Now, I am not opposed to speaking about these experiences and discussing them – I think that is quite valuable and an important role of this site. And I may think to myself 'Great, sounds like they did it', but I don't think I have the experience to make some sort of public determination.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 5:52 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Here are a couple of snippets from the Home page.

"discussions about how to determine what experience was what,"

"a lack of taboos surrounding talking about attainments"

With that in mind,

"Hi! I am Somebodyorother. Last week on retreat thus and so happened and I think I got Stream entry. What do you think?"

How is it possible to reply to that without implicitly or explicitly assessing the original posters realization or stage in practice?

Of course, if somebody here says, "Yeah, I think you nailed it!" you shouldn't go put "Written by Somebodyorother, Stream Enterer as certified on DhO" on the cover of your new book, "Stream Entry for Silly People" Nor should you take it too much to heart if someone says, "Nope, better luck next retreat."

As Hokai says, DhO really can't replace a qualified teacher/s and a mature sangha and as Vince says, that this really isn't the best place to make assessments of other people's practice.

But can DhO prevent these sorts of discussions without creating the taboos that Daniel says he wants to avoid on this site?

Ed

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 6:07 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I also feel alluded to...

Since this place is pretty much defined by open exchange about a dharma practice free of attainment-related taboos, I see nothing wrong with people making claims. Or else, what? Talk about progress, encourage each other, etc. etc., and suddenly become awkwardly silent when Something happens?

I would qualify this by saying that any such claims should ideally not be naked assertions. That wouldn't be useful since then all you learn is "someone thinks (s)he did X", and not "someone thinks (s)he did X, it presented in this particular way, is pretty sure because of Y and Z, but is still checking out the new territory to see if it's really X". The latter is more useful since it explicitly gives openings to conversation about what happened, and conveys a better sense of how grounded the person making the claim is. Also it gives more information about the diversity of ways in which these things can show up.

Incidentally, I didn't really stick to this standard when I claimed stream entry recently... I hope to rectify that. I did talk to Kenneth and have been having quite a bit of back-and-forth with Jackson by email, so maybe that cured my need to talk about it a lot. But I've been saying to them both that I'll write something more detailed about it and I still plan to. [insert sound of crickets here]

-Antonio

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 6:12 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Right emoticon I hadn't read this when I posted above, but that's part of the point I'm making, and I agree completely. As I said, I didn't quite stick to the standard (in part because I waited until I was really sure to say anything in DhO).

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 7:18 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I don't find my life experience, which has been predominantly solitary and meditative, map-able or conducive to categorizations, but then I am not one to seek affirmations from others. I've followed the 'make yourself an island' doctrine since before I knew it existed.

I really think open discussion of meditative experiences is long overdue and vitally needed. On the other hand Interpreting this experience is increasingly problematic and this attainment stuff is sort of an extreme case of that. What is an arahat really? Well, schools of thought vary, considerably, let's leave it at that. Want to argue about it, go where someone wants to argue about it - a dozen places come to mind. Is that what the group here wants this place to be about? Why? Is yet another such environment vitally needed?

imho attempting to plot this stuff on a bell curve, as if beings can be put into that kind of a box, is particularly 'not enlightened'. What we desperately need is more people in the world who are willing to be REAL, with themselves and with others.

I've pondered this attainment stuff, on occasion throughout the years, as many others doubtlessly have. As I have eventually come to see it, the less this stuff matters to me the further ahead I actually am. At this point the only benchmark that really serves is how much of my 'self' (in any notable sense whatsoever) I have actually erased in any permanent way. Please don't ask me to elaborate on that, I don't have time for getting into it.

One can use whatever measures one likes to measure whatever one wishes. Does it make it so? Time will tell. Worldly freedom from the forces of concretizing institutions is especially fleeting, I suggest we'd best enjoy it as a conditional factor where and when we find it, while it lasts.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/20/09 11:51 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
why? it's like trainspotting or bird-watching i suppose, or perhaps hide-and-seek, or peek-a-boo, but even better since someone stands to benefit from it either because they will feel affirmed in what they already knew or motivated to go back to the treasure hunt or both.

RE: More on Claims to Attainments
Answer
5/21/09 12:13 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
i really don't see why any of this is a big deal. like ed says, someone comes in and writes up a big long post about how they might've done it and here's why, and what, we're supposed to ignore it or reply with ambivalent or ambiguous statements by default? what, people gonna get fixated on stream-entry? i thought that was the whole point.

someone i know on this board read maya81's 'novice follows instructions' thread, thought 'how come other people can do it but i cant?' and got upset, and i thought 'good, get upset.' getting upset about this shit is part of what's inspired me to heights that have far exceeded what my pathetic limitations used to be (and i certainly intend to continue). is it not like this for other people? is it/has it not been like this for you? i have spoken with enough, here and elsewhere, to know that the knowledge that one and one's efforts have been inadequate thus far is prime motivation for serious training. so yes, go feel inadequate, feel doubtful, then get tired of being weak/lazy/whatever, get competitive, and get things done. deal with the moral consequences later, that's a different training.

(cont.)