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Physical practices

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Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 6:18 AM
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I am new to the forum and have looked around to see if this has been addressed. Can't find anything, but apologies if I'm mistaken.

I'm curious about whether people have physical practices beyond sitting? When I first started meditating, it was with the Kwan Um school (zen). Kwan Um teaches zazen, of course, but they also have a bowing practice of full prostrations that I found very satisfying. (Interestingly, I also always felt a little sheepish, like it wasn't quite as "good" as zazen. It seemed to be prescribed if practitioners were really struggling with restlessness in their minds.)

For the past few years I've had a daily asana and pranayama practice, which has affected my sitting practice dramatically, in terms of being able to access (and release) bodily sensations.

I suppose what I'm most curious about are the attitudes members of this community take toward physical practices. Means to an end? Remedial -- i.e., only to be used if necessary? Integral part of meditation practice?

Karen

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 6:39 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
Hi Karen,

Does Judo count? It's not exactly a spiritual discipline (though there is a bit of philosophy for those who care for that), but it does seem to have an attenuating influence on excess spiritual "energy", and it literally forces one to acknowledge one's physical limits, to stop conscious planning in favor of trusting one's practiced intuition, and to "get real" in a very immediate, physical way. Also, there's always a host of physical sensations ripe for investigation when sitting after a training session.

I don't really view Judo as an integral part of my practice, but I've been doing Judo longer than formal meditation, and sometimes I like to think that one reason I'm fairly unperturbed by freaky "energetic" phenomena lies in the "grounding" influence of regular physical work-outs.

What I know about asana / pranayama (not much) seems to point at the opposite: aren't they fairly direct energetic practices, roughly in the same ballpark as chigong?

I'm looking forward to more responses,

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 6:48 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: JamesAlexander

Cool, I was just about to publish a similar thread. I truly feel that physical practice should be an integral component of any transformative process. I have a tendency towards being very mental and need physical practice to balance things out.

I practice Qi Gong every morning and I find this to be very fruitful. With the right intention it can serve as shamata practice with movement. It also seems to get the subtle energies moving through the body. I feel my formal sitting practice has become more balanced after i started qi gong - it's easier to feel and sense the body, it kind of gets me "into the physical sensations", not just observing at a distance.

I also practice the martial art aikido. For me this serves as a form of insight practice, because you have to let go of the ego to be able to connect with the partner. The implications of Aikido in terms of practice are huge, so I wont elaborate further right now, but consider what Hakuin Zenji said:

"Improvement in motion is worth a million times more than improvement in silence."

I'll be back with more later.

Peace Karen

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 6:48 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
Hi Karen. I value asanas and find them useful. I'd say that posture is not only something physical, but shows your attitude towards life, and getting my posture straight and developing body awareness helped expressing a healthy attitude in daily life a lot.

Somewhere Chelek posted that he got till 2nd path with Chi Gong only, so it should work with asanas+pranayama as well if done properly (with the right attitude). The problem I found is that in all other virtual places I know of there is no down-to-earth information (for housholders) on how to get enlightened through hathayoga, so when finding a balance for myself, I do the stuff as much as I want to, and that's enough to feel "at home" inside my body. I haven't really practiced "physical" yoga intensively (=fulltime) for a longer time (decades), but it feels like an extreme path for attaining enlightenment.

Btw, I am almost using kriyas, cleansing techniques, with more regularity than asanas.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 1:42 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Judo counts! :-) Anything that challenges the habits of the body wakes us up in an interesting way, don't you think?

James, I had the same impression (that a physical practice can serve as a shamata practice) when I first started Ashtanga. It's a practice that seems like a perfect petri dish for this kind of work: each asana is connected by a specific set of movements, each movement is accompanied by an inhale or an exhale, as well as a specific gazing point. If you want, you can also learn to count each sequence in Sanskrit. So, counting, gazing, consciousness of the body. How could you NOT concentrate? ;-)

I'm not hearing anything specific about the pursuit of enlightenment from the yoga community, though -- at least not overtly. That said, many (most?) yogis seem to be hesitant to put words around their practices (hmmm, how zen-like!) so it may well be that people are consciously using their practices to cultivate concentration but are choosing not to say much about it.

I get that: when you do dream work, it's pretty apparent that putting it into words (or even conceptualizing too closely) invites distortions -- so the inclination to keep deep practice experiences separate from language is, I suppose, understandable. Or is that a heresy in this particular community? =D

What do you mean when you say "an extreme path," Julius? I'm curious.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 11:15 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: understandingcat

Hey Karen!

Thanks for sharing! If anything, sitting has helped me advance in my yoga practice and the other way round! Somehow (I don't know the facts :-) I believe that the Buddha and lots of other cool dudes in India had yoga as part of their daily life but I might be wrong. :-)

I find the embodied practices like yoga to be very helpful for increasing the basic awareness of the bodily sensations. For example thanks to the essentual breath work (less mechanic that in pranayama) I discovered that I feel the breath "better" not in the chest, belly or the nostrils but in the back, between the shoulderblads that move ever so slightly.

If anything yoga is very helpful in discovering the inner resistance and dealing with it in a soft and accepting way, not pushing oneself to be as others. It's great for warming up and energizing the body before the sitting and helps the mind to center and become alert (for me) not to mention all other beneficial effects. :-) I guess I do not consider yoga to be a "physical practice" as such although I can definately see why it has become so in the West and that in many schools (like Ashtanga yoga) it attracts hardcore folks that are pushing themselves because of the physical and somewhat athletic aspect of this particular yoga style. I for one combine the two and when not in a class do hatha yoga, which is more intuitive and allows for improvisation. Hope this helps.

Namasté,

Irina

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/11/09 11:43 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: understandingcat

One more thing I remembered: in his tiny and brilliant book "The Zen of Archery" Eugen Herrigel shares about years of archery training with a Zen master in Japan and from what I could see it was not at all about hitting the target outside himself. Great account of what dropping oneself is!

As you asked about asanas (yoga question) I believe we can do yoga and we can do stretching. Awareness and investigative attention is the basis of any true yoga practice. Getting grounded in yoga helped me to get back to my body, getting to know it better. This is one practice in which I feel body and mind are one, there is no place for thoughts...

Gassho,

Irina

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 3:04 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
hi karen,

by 'physical practice' do you mean 'something involving the body' or 'something that is good for your physical health'? those are pretty different things.

as for me, i do walking meditation just as much, if not more, than i sit these days, and have found it to work well.. often i seem to just know when it's time to sit, and, again, often with speedy, amazing, fruitful results. my thoughts on this matter are that the time i spend sitting around on the computer, skating, walking around, doing whatever, etc, while obsessively churning around in the back of my mind, winds up some kind of power unit which goes to town when its time to get things done. then again, there have been other times when things have gotten done even when its not time for sitting: i got 1st path when walking while on retreat and 2nd path (these are terms used in theravada buddhism) while i was kinda half-way between sitting and reclining, listening to music. as a result, i'm all for practice as it happens in every day life, because i know it works. im not sure i would recommend that for someone who hasn't gotten to stream-entry yet though. its complicated. for anyone who wants stream entry, i recommend, if they're genuinely up for it, going on an intensive retreat of a set time period, during which time they should pound it out in formal practice, virtually non-stop, doing nothing else unless absolutely necessary, with little consideration given to physical health beyond staying alive and keeping health good enough that it doesn't become a hindrance for the period of the retreat. i know a number of people this has worked for and it is by far the most common kind of 'stream-entry story' i've heard.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 3:11 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
on another note, i thought i'd relate this story here:

i know someone not on this board whose a&p led him to do tai chi seriously for a year, which led to an interest in energy work, my influence on which led to an interest in vipassana, which allowed him to see the universal characteristic(s) of all sensations/phenomena, which caused him to see the thing itself. after he learnt vipassana, he eventually tapered off his tai chi (but didnt sit much). rather, he kept his mind on the energy he could perceive moving around, followed the movements until they moved into formations in equanimity stage, and stayed on the formations until they revealed the non-dual, collapsed, and gave him stream-entry.. solid gold star for that one.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 8:39 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
@Karen: Hathayoga was for extremists, they did experiments like not lowering your hands below your head for months as a form of tapa, to gain siddhis and/or transcend the body somehow.

In „The anatomy of Hathayoga“, the author writes about siddhasana, one of the sanyasis' favourites, and that it can damage the nerves and blood vessels in/around your sexual organs when done without support (a cushion). It clearly supports celibacy, transforming your sexual energy and „moving it upwards“.

Another example that comes to my mind is the suggestion I read in the hathayoga pradipika or in books by Vivekananda (in Raja Yoga, funny, no?), that doing alternate-nostril-breathing for 40-80 rounds (not sure), 4 times a day, will cleanse your whole energy system (nadis) within a few months, making your mind ready for meditation. Naively as I was, and having not that much else to do,I tried it (like 20 rounds thrice a day), but my Indian teacher made me stop it immediately as soon as I told him about it because a) I was leaving India a few months later and wouldn't continue the practice and b) it was too strong, drying my energy and physical body out.

In short, hathayoga is an old and I'd say a proven path (leading to raja yoga btw), but it was meant for people doing it fulltime and having no other responsibilities in life but to master body, breath and mind. It's life-long practices mostly, very intense, rewarding and dangerous, and not suited for „retreats“ or changing lifestyle (my personal conclusion).

The best words for asanas as a support to concentration I know of is „romance with yourself“. About pranayama I am not half as sure, I stopped it in favour of Robert Bruce's New Energy Ways (www.xehupatl.com/download_files/freebooks/Robert_Bruce-New_Energy_Ways_1.pdf), I didn't feel like holding my breath anymore. I only do alternate-nostril-breathing with my mind, without fingers or holding the breath.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 8:40 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
JamesAlexander: "Improvement in motion is worth a million times more than improvement in silence."

theprisonergreco: „I'm all for practice as it happens in every day life, because i know it works. im not sure i would recommend that for someone who hasn't gotten to stream-entry yet though. its complicated.“

@JamesAlexander and Tarin:
Very true points, I'd really love to hear more from you on the topic. What would you say about formally practicing for concentration in everyday life? (What about another thread on this?) And why aren't you sure whether to recommend it before stream-entry? Is it that it's easy to trick yourself, or mix first and third training up?

My last experience was that after a day with a few hours of diverse, not-so-successful guided sitting practices (no jhanas or cause/effect), the next day my concentration and equanimity in everyday life were extreme (for my standards). The day was surely more profound than the formal practice the day before, e.g. writing and listening at university with awareness, and not loosing my self-awareness for more than a few minutes, but on the other hand, it would have been impossible without the sitting I did the day before.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 8:45 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
I found switching into an observer mode the most interesting possibility for everyday life, but I can loose it for quite long. When it's a „good day“, I can do it while writing, listening, talking, but only minutes at a time, the relaxation is not deep enough for more (or life's too busy).
Also tried counting breaths from 1 to 10 all day long, there you easily know how distracted you are, but it's quite artificial. But while sitting on my bicycle it works a lot better than observing.
Last option is the Divine. It's similar to „observing“, more playful and crazy to be in this mode, and things can touch me quite at my heart. It's the most free state of the three.

So that's my experience of „improvement in motion“. The less formal, the better it feels, but the easier it is to not use your full potential.
Someone should invent a mobile brain-wave-scanner that gives you an electric shock or something whenever you're getting lost in thoughts, or (more human) whisper a quote of wisdom into your ear emoticon.
After writing this, I feel like trying to formally do everyday activities really well ... maybe expecially doing the things that I do absent-mindedly so far.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 9:38 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: understandingcat

Hi Julius,

I did not read the Pradipika and I don't really see the reason to do it. In my post with "hathayoga" I meant the asanas only. I was curious about pranayama at one point but stopped in time :-) The essential breathwork that for example teachers like Donna Farhi teach (great techniques in "The breathing work" that has changed the way I relate to my breathing) is about becoming consious of the natural state of breath and is very different from controlling or manipulating the breath through quick techaniques and mechanical manipulations. It is about untying the breath and learning to see where we block it instead of trying to control it as it is done in pranayama. Glad to hear you stopped doing those exercises before they caused you any harm.

Let us all breath freely -it is a courageous act. :-)
Gassho,

Irina

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 12:26 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: PavelO

If you look at Patanjali's model (ie. 8 limbs of yoga), you will find that asana and pranayama are not meant to lead to enlightenment - they are preparatory stages before pratyahara, concentration, insight and samadhi.

There are numerous models and types of yoga, but I like picking Patanjali's because it appears to be most lucid and easy to understand. Not forgetting that it fits really well with Buddhist methodology (which comes from and builds upon yoga).

I started with asana some 8-10 months ago, learning on my own, practising daily until recently and I can't say that the effect is similar to concentration. The effect that asana has on my mind and state (during and afterwards) is distinctly different, pleasant but not as spacious and still, there is also an energetic element there that I do not get from concentration.

Asana obviously works on flexibility and more importantly appears to release chronic tension and helps with general movability. I started practising martial arts while doing yoga and I progressed a lot quicker and found things easier than other people. I also managed to heal some very old postural problems and a problematic lower back (injury). So I am certain that asana is a wonderful practice to take on (especially to deal with deep-seated tension) but I do not think that it can act as a concentration practice (apart from staying in one asana and doing concentration, which is exactly what concentration is in the first place).

I have also had some problems since starting asana (which is the reason I do not do it daily anymore) such as lower body temperature (winter was hellish), fluctuating energy levels, increased sensitivity to mind-altering substances (including caffeine, I get shakes from one espresso) and a couple more.

/Continued/

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 12:38 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: PavelO

Pranayama has been much gentler to me - apart from this strange fixation on breath control, which has been problematic when learning how to do concentration properly (through letting go of the breath). It took me a lot of time and I still struggle sometimes.

There are definitely two ways of using the breath (as Irina rightly points out) - control and letting go and they each lead elsewhere. I still struggle trying to combine the two approaches - I do a lot of breath control in Systema and I play around with abdominal breathing in everyday life, but then I pay for it in concentration and I do somehow become more rigid mentally.

In a way I like the yin/yang metaphor - both asana and pranayama are very masculine and power-driven, as is most of yoga, which is fine, but I distinctly feel the need to balance it out (being a boy and doing a lot of boyish things anyway). There is only so much power-driven practice that I can (and want to) handle.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/12/09 6:53 PM as a reply to karen kelley.
Author: JamesAlexander

Julius wrote: "What would you say about formally practicing for concentration in everyday life?".

You know the tibetan masters, when asked about their attainments, will casually say that there is this short moment, just before falling to sleep, that the "lose themselves". (See "Blazing Splendor") Besides that, they're always practicing. I'm not quite sure what to make of these statements, however I feel it`s important to consider what type of practices one should do while in the middle of everyday chaos. I suppose doing hardcore jhana inducing one-pointed concentration exercises will be a bit awkward if your in a social situation? My guess is that the type of practices where you rest in "bare attention" or "witnessing" will serve as the best foundation for a 9 to 5 type of practice.

I work as a teacher and our work situation is a bit stressful, to say the least. When things really get out of hand I find I almost immediately fall into a "witnessing state". I intentionally work to uphold this state as much as possible through the rest of the day as well, but of course it's damn hard.

In one of Alan Wallaces books he spoke about using different modes of awareness for achieving shamata. So I suppose using this "bare attention" or "awareness-ing" as a basis for shamata is also possible. If someone else got something to say abut this please do...

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/13/09 2:08 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
James, I'm still trying to get clear on some of the terms folks use around here, but I'm going to guess that "bare attention" and "awarenessing" are similar to no-mind? If so, it's definitely something I use often at work -- in stressful situations or when I feel aversion to a person or idea. I just try to "blank slate" and be present.

Amusingly, my boss is fascinated by this and asks lots of questions about it. I work in a corporate environment, and it really is a pleasure to bring these practices to the workplace.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/13/09 3:47 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
@ Irina: Hathayoga is a lot more, but it's obvious where the confusion on this comes from ...

1) I like Patanjali, but the sutras are a Raja Yogi's point of fiew, while a Hatha Yogi would have to do a ton of groundwork for gaining steadiness, discipline, detachment and the like so that control of the mind will happen easily. The Indians believe that by controlling citta (~mind, but more than thinking) you can control prana (chi, breath), or you can do it the other way round. So you hold your breath for minutes, and hold the mental suspension that's accompanying it, to control your mind. But that's a Hatha approach, and most of the stories on those practitioners seem to be myths. Patanjali clearly suggested a different methodology and used asana only for meditative postures, and pranayama also in a very special and limited way compared to for example the hatha yoga pradipika (haven't read much of it anyway).

2) You know the basics of yoga philosophy? Purusha (soul) and prakriti (matter), and matter has 3 tendencies (gunas): sattva, rajas and tamas.
The gross tamas is what yama and niyama (the 1st two limbs, moral training) are dealing with, asana (posture) and pranayama (control of prana) fall under the energetic and subtler rajas. Pratyahara (sense control) and dharana (concentration) are sattvic (causal), dhyana and samadhi (meditation) belong to purusha.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/13/09 3:54 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
Same guess here. So how to cultivate it? Can you push it or only give it room to grow? Is doing witnessing practices on the cushion something that helps witnessing in everyday life? I didn't experiment with it yet.

edit: I believe that observing consistently enough in everyday life would be sufficient for insights to arise, but till now to have a good level of attention, I need the boost of formal practice, whatever it is. I'd prefer to support everyday awareness better over powering sitting practice that doesn't help the "rest" of life.

RE: Physical practices
Answer
5/13/09 6:09 AM as a reply to karen kelley.
the reason i dont recommend using an 'every day life practice-only' approach for people who are not up to stream-entry yet is that their insight probably just isn't strong enough (otherwise they'll have already finished that path), a matter that can be remedied by more formal, dedicated practice. after i got it, things pretty much unfolded on their own. but up until that point i'm more inclined to think it was the hard work i put in second after second on retreat that did the trick. of course, an intense, obsessive interest in this stuff in your every day life as well doesn't hurt. there's a kind of gravity field that you need to break out of in order to get path and every bit probably helps. getting stream-entry was the hardest thing i'd ever done in my life.