Hi, One and All, a pre-thank you for advice & insight given on the topic stated.
Just went back and looked at the entry in MCTB, on Equanimity, there are a few points of clarification that I would like, as I am planning on doing a three month retreat in Lambini or Malaysia, and plan to prepare well for getting stream entry.
Are Equanimity & High Equanimity both levels within the 11th Vipassana Jhnana and High Equanimity, a deeper experience of that Equanimity associated with the 11th Vipassana Jhnana?
Or are they merely the same?
Can you have High Equanimity without Formations?
How do you describe Formation what kind of ranges of experience do they encompass?Many years ago (maybe over 8 years ago), while doing a Goenka retreat, I had a very strong experience, not the kind you forget. Retrospectively it fits the Equanimity bill. But there are aspects to that experience that I would like to clarify, that maybe, are evident of a formation styled experience and/or a formless realm experience, but definitely I believe, a nothing but vibrations experience as referred to below.
Reality can now be perceived with great breadth, precision, and clarity, and soon with no special effort. This is called “High Equanimity.” For those with strong concentration and technique, vibrations may become predominant, and reality may become nothing but vibrations. Vibrating formless realms may even arise, with no discernible image of the body being present at all. It may feel like reality is trying to synchronise with itself...and mental and physical phenomena may appear nearly indistinguishably as just vibrations of suchness, sometimes referred to as “formations.”
Referring to the quote above from MCTB: I was in deep equanimity, there was a 'dissolution' in the Goenka sense of the word, no unpleasant sensations, my experience was nothing but subtle, soft, fast or humming vibration like the sound of a bee. I could perceive that, this was an experience, and could shift out of that mode and become aware of my body again, either by opening my eyes and focusing on the physical or with my eyes closed extending my awareness to the physical aspect of my body while still staying with the vibration experience. I was curious about how and where my body existed within the frame work of this encompassing vibratorary experience that sort of dissolved the experience of the body.
So I believe this was definitely 'a reality can become nothing but vibration' styled experience.
But is that a vibrating formless realm and if not what is a vibrating formless realm?In this quote from MCTB, there is a correlation between formations and High Equanimity.
I am going to define formations as the primary experience of insight meditation when one is solidly in the fourth vipassana jhana, the eleventh ñana, High Equanimity...
I realise formations have associations with suchness and no self and am inclined to think it possible they can occur without these fancy vibration experiences, but not sure because this quote seems to suggest otherwise?This is most of the stuff on formations in MCTB, I am going to continue to describe and clarify my experience which I think was a formation. Because if this experience is the kind of thing that I should be experiencing in high equanimity (that will provide the readiness of stream entry), then I need to confirm the relevance of this experience or redefine my understanding of formations.
# When the fourth vipassana jhana is first attained, subtle mental sensations might again “split off” from “this side,” much as in the way of the Knowledge of Mind and Body, but with the Three Characteristics of phenomena and the space they are a part of being breathtakingly clear. Until mental and physical sensations fully synchronize on “that side,” there can be a bit of a “tri-ality,” in which there is the sense of the observer “on this side,” and nearly the whole of body and mind as two fluxing entities “over there.” As mental phenomena and physical phenomena gradually integrate with the sense of luminous space, this experientially begs the question, “What is observing formations?” at a level that is way beyond just talking about it.
# Formations are so inclusive that they viscerally demonstrate what is pointed to by the concept of “no-self” in a way that no other mode of experiencing reality can. As formations become predominant, we are faced first with the question of which side of the dualistic split we are on and then with the question of what is watching what earlier appeared to be both sides. Just keep investigating in a natural and matter-of-fact way. Let this profound dance unfold. If you have gotten to this point, you are extraordinarily close and need to do very little but relax and be gently curious about your experience.
# When experienced at very high levels of concentration, formations lose the sense that they were even formed of experiences from distinguishable sense doors. This is hard to describe, but one might try such nebulous phrases as “waves of suchness,” or “primal, undifferentiated experience.” This is largely an artifact of experiencing formations high up in the by products of the fourth vipassana jhana, i.e. the first three formless realms.
"As stated 'fourth vipassana jhana' is first attained, subtle mental sensations might again 'split off' from 'this side'
there can be a bit of a 'tri-ality,' in which there is the sense of the observer 'on this side,' and nearly the whole of body and mind as two fluxing entities 'over there'."
In this experience that I'm describing, there was this primal, undifferentiated experience or wave of suchness, I was really feeling the 'Being'. That "Awareness' was non-conceptually aware of this voice of my subconscious-or conceptual mind, crapping on which was distant small and quiet, but there was no real location though it was still within the field of my awareness, which was expansive or spacious.
But when you look at that spaciousness carefully, it can appear small and contained, or if you sink into it can feel at though it reaches without edge and boarder.
"Formations are so inclusive that they viscerally demonstrate what is pointed to by the concept of “no-self” in a way that no other mode of experiencing reality can"
This passage relates to what I mean by 'being' and how I understand it generally and in relation to this experience.
So in conclusion the experience was defined by 'Being' or Suchness, Vibrations and Spaciousness/Formlessness.RE: link to the reformed slacker's guide to stream entry
1/13/10 3:54 AM as a reply to tarin greco.
I ask that because it seems (just reading the threads here and in KFD) that before Stream Entry a lot of things could go unnoticed (lower nanas 1-3, A&P Event, even Fruitions).
I'm confused, I thought fruitions were that disappearing thing that happens at stream entry and the follow stages up to arharatship ? Someone else said something along the line of what your saying, Could someone clarify.
RE: Questions for the Stream Enterers
2/10/10 6:20 PM as a reply to Pavel O..
2) have you had repeat fruitions since? - either on or off the cushion?
Yes. Right after the first time I had a period of a week where I was reviewing everything. Especially how I did it. How I got there. It was very automatic. I discovered I could control the cycles and will myself to have a fruition. I could also call up a fruituion that seems independent of a cycle. One method which I learnt from Kenneth Folk, is the eye lid flicker. You observe the sensations of flickering and the pay attention to the last flicker when the sensation ends. Then a fruition occurs.
I also discovered there are three doors to the fruition. These are the three characteristics. So depending on which characteristic you are observing in a phenomena of the body or mind then that characteristic will influence the way you enter the fruition. The dukkha one was like the one I explained above. It was the last characteristic which was dwelled on. It is like a slight pulling up on the crown and then cessation and then release and bliss wave. The annica one for me more like the term "conk out" There is a slight build up of sensations ont he crown and then cessation and the head jerks slightly. Theses days it is smoother but was really obvious when it first happened. The anatta one is smoother and sometimes I miss it. These days they are much smoother experiences and sometimes if I am not paying attention, I miss them only realizing that it happened because of the bliss wave after.
If I observed the touch of breath on the nostrils for example and was aware of the anicca charactersitic of the sensations there, when it ended I would get an anicca door fruition. if I was observing the anatta charactersitic of a phenomena I would get a fruition through that door and the same for the dukkha door.
Initially the cycles occurred quite a lot during the couple of weeks after it happened maybe 5 to 20 per day and sometimes more. Now they are slow moving and sometimes I don't get a fruition for days. I think this maybe because I am passed the review phase and moving to the next path. But I can call up a fruition through the ways i described above which seem independent of a cycle. There seem to be cycles within cycle within cycles and it gets hard to describe.
MCTB 12. Conformity
This is why understanding things just as they are is so important. This stage lasts only one moment and never arises again until one attains the next stage of enlightenment. The same is true of the next two stages. Stages twelve to fourteen (Conformity, Change of Lineage, and Path) also share the fact that they represent the three moments of the first entrance to transcendent ultimate reality (stage fifteen, Fruition) through one of the Three Doors. In subsequent attainments of Fruition at that path (during the stage of Review), the three moments before Fruition are not called Conformity, Change of Lineage and Path. These three stages will get extensive treatment in the chapter on The Three Doors.
I thought fruitions were that disappearing thing that happens at stream entry and the following stages up to arharatship ?