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Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?

Forum: Practical Dharma

just watched this old interview with the Dalai Lama on ABC. here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zpf1DdArek

in the interview, the Dalai Lama was asked about the Buddhist view of heaven, nirvana, and enlightenment. i find that the Dalai Lama's answers don't fit with my contemporary understanding of Buddhism (as interpreted by other Buddhist teachers in other schools and lineage). for example, the Dalai Lama is very confident with the concept of reincarnation (e.g. animals reincarnating as humans and vice-versa). also, the Dalai Lama's definition of Buddhahood is "the highest Nirvana" wherein all negative emotions are all "completely eliminated." (that's his exact words). hmm, this seems to be inconsistent with the idea i understand from Theravada, wherein negative emotions are not totally eliminated but are seen as what they are so they are not a problem.

however, what really surprised me was when the Dalai Lama was asked directly by Barbara Walters, "are you enlightened your Holiness?" to which his answer was: "no. i do not know what will happen tonight." and then he laughs. and then he goes off saying that an enlightened person remembers everything. hmm. was the Dalai Lama referring to a "higher" level of enlightenment (e.g. Buddhahood)? according to the story the Buddha remembered everything after his enlightenment, including his past lives. maybe that's the kind of enlightenment the Dalai Lama was referring to.

is this one reason why other Buddhist (Tibetan, Zen, or Theravada) don't claim that they are enlightened? do they equate enlightenment with Buddhahood? if the Dalai Lama doesn't claim "enlightenment" then i can imagine why other "awakened" teachers won't even claim "enlightenment", how dare they? and so, from this perspective, is the Dalai Lama a big contributor to the Mushroom culture?

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 4:34 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
P.S. for those who are not familiar with the term "Mushroom Culture", it's based on Ingram's "Mushroom Factor". see this link: http://bit.ly/16XSbQ

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 6:03 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
I saw the interview when it first aired. I was more in to the mushroom culture back then, so his statements on enlightenment and Buddhahood didn't really bother me.

Honestly, I'm still torn on whether or not he's doing or saying anything all that wrong. One the on hand, he's from a completely different culture than my own which carries significant differences in worldview and ideology. His saying that he is not a Buddha is not him saying that he isn't a skilled meditator, or that he hasn't gotten some insight. I've read some statements by the Dalai Lama regarding his ability to keep up with even the most renowned Dzogchen masters, which to me says he acknowledges some level of attainment.

And there's the problem... on the other hand, you have this colorful foreign gentleman talking about Buddhahood as if there are no stages in between. Even Daniel has said (in one of the Buddhist Geeks episodes) that he thinks that Buddhahood is a beautiful ideal and goal, if that's what someone wants to aspire to. But when any level of "enlightenment" gets confused with some ideal of a highly perfected being, problems in view arise. The models are a mess, and unfortunately, even highly realized masters (on the insight front) may be totally ignorant of this fact.

I guess my beef lies more with the Western teachers who perpetuate this stuff rather than place it in its proper context. Your thoughts?

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 7:26 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
In my opinion, he is a heavy, heavy Dharma cat who treads very, very lightly. I'm pretty convinced. Can't explain why.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 9:46 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: GhostLLP

The Dalai Lama is a very wise and valuable teacher of Tibetan Buddhism.

The answers he gave are perfectly in line with Buddhist thought, and with his own realizations I'm sure.

I'm certainly not aware of any authentic school of Buddhism which does not teach reincarnation. I'm also not aware of any authentic school of Buddhism in which Enlightenment does not entail elimination of negative emotions.

The Dalai Lama does not claim he is Enlightened simply because he is in fact not enlightened. This has nothing to do with any kind of "mushroom culture."

I'm not so sure a "mushroom culture" even exists. It seems to be a phrase meant to water down enlightenment to the point where we can all go around pretending to be highly realized Arahats while at the same time feeling no relief from the suffering we have supposedly escaped.

Peace
Lucas

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 10:48 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
H.H. is a genius and a very advanced practitioner even by most lofty Mahayana standards (i.e. ten Bodhisattva bhumi). He's also the Dalai Lama, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. He's also a spokesman for a traditional, conservative Buddhist establishment in exile, trying his best to help preserve what's left of his culture, including it's values and ideals.

On the other hand, the mushroom culture is very real. I'm much less bothered with traditional models of full awakening, than with bizarre ideas like flying humans and miracle working as basis for a homemade model of awakening - hybrids of pseudo-Buddhist beliefs and Asian mythology and folk-psychology and Western newage thinking - parading as a "view" on awakening. The problem with mushroom culture is that it won't admit it exists, it won't take a no-nonsense, clear stand on the reality of awakening, and so it won't provide an antidote for such bizarre ideas. Thus, mushrooms...

Traditional Buddhists, modern Buddhists, postmodern Buddhists, and then those who wish to ride the wave of emergent Dharma, will certainly not hold the same view on either mushrooms or awakening. At every one of these levels there is legitimacy of models, and a method of establishing legitimacy. Therefore, every one of these should come up with their own definition of mush-culture, right?

Now, H.H. is very aware and inquisitive of all Buddhist doctrines, bold in affirming evolution and science, but also thoroughly embedded (trained and supervised from early childhood) in a specific cultural and social system. I wouldn't say he "contributes" to the mushroom culture as such. I would say he doesn't help with our mostly postmodern version of it, but then he isn't supposed to. This is the task of new generations of practitioners everywhere, students and teachers equally. Fresh minds, fresh thinking, fresh awakening.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 10:57 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: garyrh

If the answer is yes or no how has any cause been furthered speculating what the Dalai Lama may or may not believe. If you get him in a different context the answers would likely be different. He maybe making allowances for the masses popular view on enlightenment. He might have considered the consequences of saying I am enlightened while attempting to change the masses model of enlightenment.
That said, he may not hold the views of DhO, just like many Budhist traditions do not. In so far as the Dalai Lama's relevance to the "mushroom factor" he is the keeper of a particular tradition not any more than that.
It is fair enough to ask any question but to answer this one the divisiveness is for little gain.
Obviously just my opinion emoticon

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 11:48 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
I think that's basically right and understandable, ultimately. But one of the shadows cast by doing that is the one that fosters mushroom culture.

cont.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/11/09 11:49 PM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
This is a true story. A few years ago, when I was ready to give up meditation and my obsessive reading of anything related to practical enlightenment I could find, I found a DL book on the stages of meditation. Sounded perfect! And it was well written and not too cryptic (especially compared to what I was finding), but it ended somewhere well before stream entry. As such, it really wasn't helpful at all. It was a very classic example of how traditional schools will hold back material. As a result, it subtly suggest this stuff is mythical and unattainable except by people who live it 24/7.

I'm pretty sure I gave up after that... until I found Brad Warner's book -- which basically said it could be done by a typical dude. Brad's book doesn't say what really doing it and getting it done is, unfortunately. And then I found Daniel's book -- which described the path in full. At that point, I didn't have any overarching doubts. It was real, it could be done, and there was a way to do it.

I think DL has to tell a lot of white lies to keep his tradition and mythology (for the religious tibetian buddhists) established. He probably knows that there is a baby and dirty water and getting rid of the latter without losing the former is difficult. Yet he pushes scientific objectivity and rejection of things like the actual existance of hell realms and other traditional elements. It's got to be a hard job and a difficult balance. It's funny, I personally don't dig the public-version of the guy -- in a hip-shot, snap judgement way. It's easy for me to think of him as part of the anti-woman, anti-gay contingent of traditional religion. But I think he carries a heavy load, so I try to recognize the bigger picture and show some compassion -- ironically, for the embodiment of compassion.

(I'm getting deja vu -- did we have this discussion before?)

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 12:07 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: garyrh

There is plenty of mushroom culture out there, there is little value in singling out DL. Further why single out the "mushroom factor" with Budhism. What about the dogma of Christianity, Islam ...

There is nothing left of a mushroom after the sun shines on it for a few days. The best part of your story was the sun!

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 12:56 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: josh0

My, admittedly perhaps incomplete and/or flawed, understanding of rebirth and enlightenment would suggest that the Dalai Lama, who presumably expects and is expected to die and be reborn to continue the Tibettan spiritual lineage is therefore, by definition, not enlightened (we're talking nibbana here). If he were, he wouldn't be reborn, no?

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 1:17 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
A bit off topic, perhaps, however, awakened individuals can choose to be reborn and do so by power of their previous determination. Freedom from ("wisdom") and freedom to ("compassion") are generated, developed, cultivated, and (or ought to be) perfected alongside from the very beginning of one's training in all "northern" schools of Buddhism. Therefore, there's no contradiction in being enlightened and reborn. What is destroyed with full awakening in this context is unconscious or compulsive rebirth, and has itself been classified in three stages of accomplishment in accordance with the three stages of rebirth process, depending on the stage until which full lucidity is retained. In short, the basis for the two (awakening and rebirth) being inclusive seems broad and acceptable. However, there are very few actual i.e. conscious tulku-continuums in the whole Tibetan tradition, the Karmapa usually being offered as the prime representative.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 1:56 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Forgive me for showing my ignorance here, but I understood that attainment to the level of arahat was, ipso facto, the attainment of buddhahood.

Granted, I am not yet as well-read in traditional buddhist writtings as I probably should be, but I remember reading of a conversation between the Buddha and an inquisitor that went something along the lines of, "Well, if you're not a god, what are you?" To which her responded, "I am awake."

I took that to mean that the measure of buddhahood is awakening, e.g.., "there is nothing more to be done", "housebuilder, you will build no more", etc.

Am I mistaken?

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 2:00 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: josh0

Ah, thanks for the clarification. This is all a little outside my general area of knowledge. emoticon

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 2:07 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Right! Mushroom Culture is equally applied to all mystical traditions that have become obscured or hidden by needless secrecy. And there's hope for all traditions because the heart of it is still there to be discovered or re-discovered.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 2:22 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
You're not necessarily mistaken, depending on the meaning of "buddhahood" and "arahathood", at least not in the broad sense. But strictly speaking, those two are not identical, even in the Pali Canon, not to mention later traditions.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood

See also "Buddhahood and buddha bodies" by John Makransky http://www.johnmakransky.org/article_10.html

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 3:41 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
The vast majority of the participants in this forum are not claiming to be arahats. The ones that do claim to have attained arahatship do not do so lightly.

I still don't understand why proclaiming that awakening is possible, while also attempting to demystifying the whole process, ruffles the feathers of so many people, especially those who practice some form of Buddhism -- which is all about awakening!

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 4:41 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Nice discussion. I like Hokai's reference to View. I share Triplethink's gut feeling, knowing that it's (just) a gut feeling.

I think repeating Daniel's definition of "mushroom culture" at this point would put some of the points raised here into perspective: "students are kept in the dark, and fed manure". That's mushroom culture in the sense the term is used in MCTB.

I didn't watch the interview; but I have read an anthology of HH's writings (Christmas gift... I don't really like anthologies), and while those bits I read don't always shine the full force of sunlight on all that is touched, they are certainly not manure either. More like collecting mushrooms in the forest than cultivating them in the cellar? Tasty, but hard to find?

@Lucas "mushroom culture seems to be a phrase meant to water down enlightenment to the point where we can all go around pretending to be highly realized Arahats while at the same time feeling no relief from the suffering we have supposedly escaped." - Actually, I think here you almost gave a rather nice definition of "mushroom culture", instead of debunking it. It's the "pretending but not getting it" that is at the heart of mushroom culture. Not pretending about attainments, though: Pretending they are not within reach of real, live human beings, and perpetuating that position in order to solidify some comfortable delusion.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 5:03 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Well said, Florian.

I think that "comfortable delusion" is a great way to put it. It would seem that the ideas surrounding outrageously unreasonable enlightenment models are to the tune of, "I couldn't possibly reach this, so I'm off the hook!" This outlook brings a sense of rest to one's practice and life in general, which is very comfortable in a mundane sort of way. The "tension" that says there's more to be done is uncomfortable, which makes it tempting to conceptualize that enlightenment is out of reach in order to bring resolution to the unsettling predicament.

I would suggest (as would most others here) that it is better to resolve the tension by practicing well and gaining insight. But in order for that to be an option, someone (or some community) must be willing to present the option and speak clearly about what is possible and what it takes to get it done... hence the reason why the DhO exists.

RE: Is the Dalai Lama Contributing to the Mushroom Culture?
Answer
3/12/09 6:06 AM as a reply to C4 Chaos.
Author: GhostLLP

I agree. So let's talk about what's possible.

Freedom from negative emotions is possible. Contentment is possible. It is possible to never feel bad ever. To never feel sadness, to never feel depression. These emotions can be completely removed from our psyche.

I am here to tell you this is possible. The Dalai Lama is here to tell you this is possible.

Most people here seem to be under a mistaken impressions that this kind of enlightenment is too extraordinary, it's too lofty. It is not possible, so let's lower our expectations.

So my question is, who is really contributing to a mushroom culture? eh? haha

Peace
Lucas