<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Samatha-Vipassana: Tranquillity and Insight, Hand-in-Hand</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=1191942</link> <description>Discussion about developing samatha and vipassana in conjunction.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:31:35 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:31:35Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: applying "transmission/gears" metaphor to anapanasati sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5541122</link> <description>A very good book to reconcile these perspectives is Rosenberg&amp;#039;s own most recent work, &lt;a href=""&gt;&lt;em&gt;3 Steps to Awakening&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;.  From that book, it&amp;#039;s clear that he is in line with the subset of Thai practice that emphasizes using the instructions of the sutta to widen out to a panoramic awareness. Yes, he says, you can use the same 16 steps to dive deep into hard jhana, but he considers that an optional development for those who are interested. There are definitely a few pieces of that Thai tradition that think anapanasati will lead you to wide-open embodied choiceless awareness rather than hard jhana, which is just more proof that these suttas have had a lot of readings over the millennia.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The book itself basically says, &amp;#034;Oops. I taught a lot of people via the Anapanasati Sutta, but a lot of my Western students got obsessed with the steps, so I have come up with a pared-down version based on Buddhadasa&amp;#039;s concise method of anapanasati.&amp;#034;  His three gears end up being:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1)Open breath awareness, focused on the whole body breathing. Unlike many versions of the sutta, this version doesn&amp;#039;t have you pick a spot to watch the breath but has you just turn your attention wherever it shows up each moment, following the moving target.&lt;br /&gt;2)Panoramic awareness, focused on the whole body breathing including feeling tones, thoughts, and other sensations. Breath is basically held onto as an anchor in the background, while the flow of whatever arises is the main object of concentration.&lt;br /&gt;3)Pure choiceless awareness of whatever arises moment by moment without using the breath as an anchor. If the breath shows up, it&amp;#039;s just one more thing that&amp;#039;s there sometimes. This section has a lot of focus on the three characteristics.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In this treatment, Rosenberg admits to mostly doing #3 these days, and finding its benefits very special, but he still seems to de-emphasize ranking the gears, because of all the cycles that concentration power goes through.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For me, this system works pretty well, and worked out some of the kinks in my concentration I&amp;#039;d been stuck on the past year or so. But people have radically different ways of learning and sets of mental faculties from each other, so YMMV.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2014 21:21:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5541122</guid> <dc:creator>Michael A.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-02T21:21:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5538193</link> <description>More Dukkha, and thoughts of Dukkha, what is it anyway?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What if one contemplated Dukkha in this way.  Looking at the Noble eightfold path as a wheel, with eight spokes going towards the center.  Now, all eight spokes must be of equal strenth and fashioned correctly for the smooth operation of the wheel, so it will not wobble and bounce along, etc.  Now, look at Dukkha as the axle hole, (which I believe is the literal translation for Dukkha), If one is not &amp;#034;aligning&amp;#034; with the Noble EightFold path, one will create friction, tension, resistence , etc. towards reality.  One is &amp;#034;fighting&amp;#034; with reality, not accepting reality as it is in the moment.  In this way Dukkha is viewed as the cause for hinderance, fetters, clinging, resisting reality as it is, stemming from the wishes to change things , clinging to impermanent formation, etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, I also want to firmly state, that I do not believe in dogma, nor do I find it healthy for a mind to cling to dogma.  One truly must investigate everything on their own for any spiritual progress to commence.  Otherwise everything is just a belief, and a belief is just a mental formation, impermanent and ephemeral at best.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan</description> <pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2014 19:52:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5538193</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-26T19:52:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536555</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paweł K:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Root of Dukkha&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;dukkha&amp;#039; itself is not only caused by desires that cannot or can be fulfilled but by just pointing to &amp;#039;this side&amp;#039; where so called &amp;#039;watcher&amp;#039; is supposed to be. One way to look at reason why is that is Dream Walker explanation (this with fight or flight stuff) and other which I am currently exploring does with what is actually needed to sustain this illusion. And what I discovered is that sensation could be easily &amp;#039;followed&amp;#039; and illusion would not work if it wasn&amp;#039;t for pain they generate. Without pain one could see exactly that sensation is not switching sides from &amp;#039;that side&amp;#039; to &amp;#039;this side&amp;#039;, nor does it leave sensation field. It just go in some direction and increase pain/dukkha so it can&amp;#039;t be followed anymore and then go back with so called &amp;#039;our will&amp;#039; decreasing pain/dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With this model it is easy to explain why &amp;#039;normal&amp;#039; people suffer much less because of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; than meditators do: because normal people just don&amp;#039;t look at all and when it comes to mind shy off easily so its easy to make this illusion going without that much suffering. Meditator or just someone who dwell in his mind too much on the other hand try to notice too much and only increase amount of suffering that is needed to keep this illusion going so ultimately meditator have to drop it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Desire&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its aggregate of sensation of selfing and pleasurable sensation depending on given desire. There is always those two things and imho the best way is to deal with this selfing part by seeing sensations that make it clearly and leave pleasurable stuff where it is. Most common error is trying to fight pleasurable part with aversion with is like putting small fire with rocket fuel. Without selfing part desire stop being desire and start being indicator of available options. Obviously options which can end badly will have unpleasant sensations associated with them which will make them unappealing and those desires that indicated skillful actions witch skillful results will be seen as worth taking, even without actually being desires. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Stopping sensations that havent arisen yet&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;when you learn eg. playing a piano and play bad note you just know you have to practice more. So if you notice that you have fallen into desire trap then you should also know you have to practice &amp;#039;not falling into desire&amp;#039; more&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Okay, I have to admit, I have much work to do. &lt;br /&gt; It seems that while I intellectually have figured out there is no &amp;#034;watcher&amp;#034; there is still a feeling of a watcher, and that feeling is a sensation, for me it is a sensation within my skull area, behind the eyes, around the nasopharynx&lt;br /&gt;But, really this is only when I &amp;#034;think&amp;#034; about it.  When there is the state of &amp;#034;no thinking&amp;#034; there is no self sensation there.  It seems it is time to &amp;#034;go back to the drawing board&amp;#034; and investigate  this &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; sensation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From MCTB No-Self&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x2b;No-Self"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+No-Self&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;One of my teachers once wisely said, “If you are observing it, then it isn&amp;#039;t you by definition!” Notice that the whole of reality seems to be observed. The hints don&amp;#039;t get any better than this. Here are three more points of theory that are very useful for insight practices and one’s attempts to understand what is meant by no-self: 1.There are absolutely no sensations that can observe other sensations! (Notice that reality is made entirely of sensations.) 2.There are no special sensations that are uniquely in control of other sensations. 3.There are no sensations that are fundamentally split off from other sensations occurring at that moment. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;To begin to unravel this mystery is to begin to awaken. Simply put, reality with a sense of a separate watcher is delusion, and unconditioned reality, reality just as it is, is awakening. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for your reply&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan </description> <pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2014 09:56:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536555</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-22T09:56:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536435</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;How do you see something that happens before consciousness?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;By letting go, the mind stilled, stopping at the sensation(feeling) level.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;The vast majority of information available in the world is filtered by your sub/pre-consciousness and only information that meets certain threshholds is passed to the consciousness for you to be aware of. Stilling the mind allows clarity to this information but most of the time does not allow access to the sub/pre-consciousness. Since classic Buddhist doctrine does not go into the sub/pre-consciousness your understanding of this topic seems pretty standard and classic. I want to understand what is happening regardless of the theoretical background and look to neuroscience and psychology to help explain what is happening along with Buddhist philosophy. I&amp;#039;m taking the pragmatic approach and mixing it all up for better or worse.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Probably, you were able to tie your shoes without thinking, &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; were tying your shoes at the sensation level, nothing more was needed, the rest of the act of tying your shoes was performed by the impersonal nature of the mind and body carrying out a samskara or habit, set up and ingrained previously repeated many times in your past based on causes and conditions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Calling it a habit does not explain it. Here is a fun thing to think about and apply your understanding of the various methodologies of understanding - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Alien_hand_syndrome"&gt;Alien hand syndrome&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So , basically, there are two mind MODES here, one that uses the thinking process ( or is USED by the thinking process monkey mind) , and two the mind mode of bare attention, kind of a &amp;#034;silent running&amp;#034; of sorts.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Are you sure there are two or is the thinking one entangled with a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sense_of_agency"&gt;Sense of agency&lt;/a&gt; and therefore perceived as self and that makes them seem different?&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, exactly, neuroscience, psychology (study of mind), neuroscience, Buddhist philosophy, well, they are all terms and concepts, all tools to be used by a seeker of the Truth, wherever that may lead. What I was trying to share was the Experience of  the pure awareness consciousness, consciousness without the thinking added, or rather consciousness with the thinking subtracted might be a better way to phrase.  So the experience of tying the shoes was to try to connect with actual experience and leave the hypothetical behind.  The Ego Tunnel Metzinger describes sounds like some of Daniel Dennett&amp;#039;s work, and Buddha&amp;#039;s Anatta  , ( I have only just read reviews and excerpts), of which is true, it is all sensations, including thoughts, no-self, no homonculus, no soul inside, sorry, can&amp;#039;t find it, can just find processes and sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your last question:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are you sure there are two or is the thinking one entangled with a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sense_of_agency"&gt;Sense of agency&lt;/a&gt; and therefore perceived as self and that makes them seem different?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, exactly the point, one mode is with the self concept/mind program running, and the other mode is with the self concept/mind program not running.  I was trying to prove, by sharing the experience, of mind with the self and mind  without the self, both of which can perform tasks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In conclusion, the &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; insight to be gained was that there is indeed a &amp;#034;self&amp;#034;, but it is an illusion,  it is just thoughts and concepts.  So in reality, humans idea of a self, is just that , an idea and a concept.  The self or Ego delusion is prime suspect numero uno to the origination of Dukkha.  Craving and the ego delusion go hand in hand, easier to drop them before they originate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; have some more non-thinking to do, lol&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan</description> <pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2014 01:22:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536435</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-22T01:22:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536312</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;How do you see something that happens before consciousness?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;By letting go, the mind stilled, stopping at the sensation(feeling) level.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;The vast majority of information available in the world is filtered by your sub/pre-consciousness and only information that meets certain threshholds is passed to the consciousness for you to be aware of. Stilling the mind allows clarity to this information but most of the time does not allow access to the sub/pre-consciousness. Since classic Buddhist doctrine does not go into the sub/pre-consciousness your understanding of this topic seems pretty standard and classic. I want to understand what is happening regardless of the theoretical background and look to neuroscience and psychology to help explain what is happening along with Buddhist philosophy. I&amp;#039;m taking the pragmatic approach and mixing it all up for better or worse.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Probably, you were able to tie your shoes without thinking, &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; were tying your shoes at the sensation level, nothing more was needed, the rest of the act of tying your shoes was performed by the impersonal nature of the mind and body carrying out a samskara or habit, set up and ingrained previously repeated many times in your past based on causes and conditions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Calling it a habit does not explain it. Here is a fun thing to think about and apply your understanding of the various methodologies of understanding - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Alien_hand_syndrome"&gt;Alien hand syndrome&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi aka &amp;#40;Bryan S&amp;#41;:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So , basically, there are two mind MODES here, one that uses the thinking process ( or is USED by the thinking process monkey mind) , and two the mind mode of bare attention, kind of a &amp;#034;silent running&amp;#034; of sorts.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Are you sure there are two or is the thinking one entangled with a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sense_of_agency"&gt;Sense of agency&lt;/a&gt; and therefore perceived as self and that makes them seem different?&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 19:04:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536312</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T19:04:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536270</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;ptf&amp;#x2f;dhamma&amp;#x2f;sacca&amp;#x2f;sacca2&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca2/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Craving inevitably leads to more &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If this sticky, uncouth craving&lt;br /&gt;overcomes you in the world,&lt;br /&gt;your sorrows grow like wild grass&lt;br /&gt; after rain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If, in the world, you overcome&lt;br /&gt;this uncouth craving, hard to escape,&lt;br /&gt;sorrows roll off you,&lt;br /&gt; like water beads off&lt;br /&gt; a lotus.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#x2014; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;kn&amp;#x2f;dhp&amp;#x2f;http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;ptf&amp;#x2f;dhamma&amp;#x2f;sacca&amp;#x2f;http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;ptf&amp;#x2f;dhamma&amp;#x2f;sacca&amp;#x2f;sacca2&amp;#x2f;sacca2&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x23;dhp-335"&gt;Dhp 335-336&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 18:07:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536270</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T18:07:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536266</link> <description>&amp;#034;How do you see something that happens before consciousness?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By letting go, the mind stilled, stopping at the sensation(feeling) level.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;People have this mind state all the time. When one plays darts, pool, basketball, one isn&amp;#039;t always thinking, thinking, &amp;#034;okay&amp;#039; if i angle a little more here, and use this tangent, or this arc, adjust for wind spped, tighter grip, etc, etc,   Someone in the game , and one well practiced at their sport just &amp;#034;shoots&amp;#034;, no thoughts interfering, one just naturally &amp;#034;shoots&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe one could try an experiment in letting go, even for just one mind moment, and experiencing the mind as it is right at the sensation level.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The five skandhas[&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;w&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;title&amp;#x3d;Skandha&amp;#x26;action&amp;#x3d;edit&amp;#x26;section&amp;#x3d;3"&gt;edit&lt;/a&gt;]The sutras describe five aggregates:&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-8"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;R&amp;#x25;C5&amp;#x25;ABpa"&gt;&amp;#034;form&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; or &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;matter&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-9"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; (Skt., Pāli &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;R&amp;#x25;C5&amp;#x25;ABpa"&gt;rūpa&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;; Tib. &lt;em&gt;gzugs&lt;/em&gt;): external and internal matter. Externally, &lt;em&gt;rupa&lt;/em&gt; is the physical world. Internally, &lt;em&gt;rupa&lt;/em&gt; includes the material body and the physical sense organs.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-10"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vedan&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81"&gt;&amp;#034;sensation&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; or &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;feeling&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt; (Skt., Pāli &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vedan&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81"&gt;vedanā&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;; Tib. &lt;em&gt;tshor-ba&lt;/em&gt;): sensing an object&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-11"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; as either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-12"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-13"&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sa&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81"&gt;&amp;#034;perception&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;conception&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;apperception&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;cognition&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;, or &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;discrimination&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt; (Skt. &lt;em&gt;samjñā&lt;/em&gt;, Pāli &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sa&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81"&gt;saññā&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, Tib. &lt;em&gt;&amp;#039;du-shes&lt;/em&gt;): registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sa&amp;#x25;E1&amp;#x25;B9&amp;#x25;85kh&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81ra"&gt;&amp;#034;mental formations&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;impulses&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;volition&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;, or &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;compositional factors&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt; (Skt. &lt;em&gt;samskāra&lt;/em&gt;, Pāli &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Sa&amp;#x25;E1&amp;#x25;B9&amp;#x25;85kh&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81ra"&gt;saṅkhāra&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, Tib. &lt;em&gt;&amp;#039;du-byed&lt;/em&gt;): all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-14"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vi&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;B1&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81&amp;#x25;E1&amp;#x25;B9&amp;#x25;87a"&gt;&amp;#034;consciousness&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; or &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;discernment&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-15"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; (Skt. &lt;em&gt;vijñāna&lt;/em&gt;, Pāli &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vijnana"&gt;viññāṇa&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;,&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha&amp;#x23;cite_note-16"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; Tib. &lt;em&gt;rnam-par-shes-pa&lt;/em&gt;): &lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Skandha"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First untie your shoes, take them off,  set them aside.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Second,  I would suggest take a few minutes to calm the mind, take some deep breaths, whatever, or if one can get into jhana fairly easily, get into jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Third, keep the mind still, no internal verbalization, if one can, just stay quiet internally.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fourth, put on your shoes, and tie your laces.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fifth, reflect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Probably, you were able to tie your shoes without thinking, &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; were tying your shoes at the sensation level, nothing more was needed, the rest of the act of tying your shoes was performed by the impersonal nature of the mind and body carrying out a samskara or habit, set up and ingrained previously repeated many times in your past based on causes and conditions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hopefully , you were able to &amp;#034;tie your shoes, while tying your shoes&amp;#034;  same as they say, &amp;#034;washing dishes, while washing dishes&amp;#034;  &amp;#034;chopping wood, while chopping wood&amp;#034;  etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So , basically, there are two mind MODES here, one that uses the thinking process ( or is USED by the thinking process monkey mind) , and two the mind mode of bare attention, kind of a &amp;#034;silent running&amp;#034; of sorts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Better explained here in detail:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Power of Mindfulness An Inquiry into the Scope of Bare Attention and the Principal Sources of its Strengthby Nyanaponika Thera&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;nyanaponika&amp;#x2f;wheel121&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;F_termsOfUse"&gt;© 1994&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;nyanaponika&amp;#x2f;wheel121&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel121.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anywho, I recognize you are fairly advanced in your practice, and hope this isn&amp;#039;t too elementary, but sometimes just hearing things from a different viewpoint helps, it does for me, anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Walk on,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 18:02:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536266</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T18:02:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536263</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Root of Dukkha&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;dukkha&amp;#039; itself is not only caused by desires that cannot or can be fulfilled but by just pointing to &amp;#039;this side&amp;#039; where so called &amp;#039;watcher&amp;#039; is supposed to be. One way to look at reason why is that is Dream Walker explanation (this with fight or flight stuff) and other which I am currently exploring does with what is actually needed to sustain this illusion. And what I discovered is that sensation could be easily &amp;#039;followed&amp;#039; and illusion would not work if it wasn&amp;#039;t for pain they generate. Without pain one could see exactly that sensation is not switching sides from &amp;#039;that side&amp;#039; to &amp;#039;this side&amp;#039;, nor does it leave sensation field. It just go in some direction and increase pain/dukkha so it can&amp;#039;t be followed anymore and then go back with so called &amp;#039;our will&amp;#039; decreasing pain/dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With this model it is easy to explain why &amp;#039;normal&amp;#039; people suffer much less because of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; than meditators do: because normal people just don&amp;#039;t look at all and when it comes to mind shy off easily so its easy to make this illusion going without that much suffering. Meditator or just someone who dwell in his mind too much on the other hand try to notice too much and only increase amount of suffering that is needed to keep this illusion going so ultimately meditator have to drop it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Desire&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its aggregate of sensation of selfing and pleasurable sensation depending on given desire. There is always those two things and imho the best way is to deal with this selfing part by seeing sensations that make it clearly and leave pleasurable stuff where it is. Most common error is trying to fight pleasurable part with aversion with is like putting small fire with rocket fuel. Without selfing part desire stop being desire and start being indicator of available options. Obviously options which can end badly will have unpleasant sensations associated with them which will make them unappealing and those desires that indicated skillful actions witch skillful results will be seen as worth taking, even without actually being desires. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Stopping sensations that havent arisen yet&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;when you learn eg. playing a piano and play bad note you just know you have to practice more. So if you notice that you have fallen into desire trap then you should also know you have to practice &amp;#039;not falling into desire&amp;#039; more</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 17:50:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536263</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T17:50:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536186</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bryan Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hmmm, okay seeing the moment to moment sensations as they are and labelling them as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.....SCREEECCHHH!!!! Too late, If the mind has gone this far, THEN Investigation of Phenomenon would be prescribed, &amp;#034;sprinkling&amp;#034; the investigation of anicca, dukkha, anatta.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, what I am trying to point to, is the chance at the pre-emptive strike, proaction, BEFORE Craving arises, BEFORE labelling the sensations, for it seems that if one continually lets all sensations arise to the labelling stage one has missed the train.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to re-formulate, the phenomenon of a pleasant . unpleasant or neutral sensation occurs, then one just stays with Equanimity, not letting the mind waver and/ or react.  This also presupposes that one is training their mind in Right Effort:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First , to abandon an unwholesome state that has already arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Second, to not let unwholesome state arise that has not yet arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Third, to arouse a wholesome state that has not yet arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fourth, to maintain a wholesome state that has already arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then, when one has established the fourth effort and maintains the fourth effort, (wholesome state being Brahma Viharas, and Equanimity being Supreme of those)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, to re-re-formulate, in this way one can cut off craving at the pass, so to speak, and thus dukkhawill not follow, at least from each successful mind moment that is maintained by Bare Attention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, that being all said, Investigated with the 3C&amp;#039;s investigations and contemplations, or Noting phenomenon, or other methods not as yet mentioned are all excellent to pull the mind from the mud and molasses of craving and clinging.  escpecially, since many mental formations, cravings, and clinging patterns, may and do exist pre-dating themselves form time immemorial.  But, in order to work on pre-existing craving and clinging fetters, one should STOP the adding to the pre-existing craving and clinging fetters.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do want to add that establishing Equanimity and noting all sensations and phenomenon as they arise and pass away, is very important.  From my view, it seems as if , supposing one is being an objective observer in equanimity, that when phenomenon arises and passes away, it kind of &amp;#034;burns&amp;#034; itself out on the shores of Equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Noting, the definition of noting, seems to not convey what is actually and eventually needed when observing phenomenon.  But, is there a better word in the english language?  Noting seems to preclude that one &amp;#034;verbalizes&amp;#034; each phenomenon, this is not so true, but can be a useful tool.  Can&amp;#039;t &amp;#034;Noting&amp;#034; be , (aware of phenomenon without criticism)  or instead of noting, isn&amp;#039;t NOTICING a better word?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have to get to the second part of your post later, but want to add that , yes, exiting out of the craving and clinging trap, overrides the response system involved in the general adaptation syndrome, not kind of like ahacking the system, but mindfulness, (Mind Full of the Present Moment) is definitely and intentionally hacking the system.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for interacting, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many Blessings to all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was working at looking at the skandas and hit a roadblock. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;form&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;feeling&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;perception &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;formations &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;consciousness &lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How do you see something that happens before consciousness?&lt;br /&gt;I realized that by the time I &amp;#034;saw&amp;#034; something it had already passed the first four layers. I could then reverse engineer back to the feeling but this was in the consciousness and then I could then try to mess with the feeling at that point....Being in the stage 11 Nana/state 4th Jhana of EQ tends to let the feeling stage do it&amp;#039;s own thing without clinging.&lt;br /&gt;Katy Steger experienced the Skandhas after cessation/reboot and described it...-&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;4415915"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4415915&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After this I stopped trying to work on this at a conscious level as I realized it was describing a sub/pre-conscious thing that I could only fool myself into thinking I was seeing by scripting. This is my current opinion substantiated by the book &amp;#034;The ego tunnel&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Good Luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536186</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T15:47:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536159</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Craving is the root, what is Craving?  Wanting or wishing to have some thing or situation, and the flip-side, wanting or wishing to not have a situation as it is or wanting some thing. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Well that is one way to look at it. I would say that if you are seeing the moment to moment sensations as they are and labeling them as pleasant, neutral or unpleasant I think this would be a fine practice. I would add a little of the 3 C&amp;#039;s too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Also, if craving is not let to arise, there is no &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; illusion present either, if there is no wanting something or not wanting something, there doesn&amp;#039;t have to be an &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; present either.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hmmm....don&amp;#039;t know about that. Could you explain why you think this? &lt;br /&gt;I tend to think that seeing reality very clearly might be the key to letting go of the layers of selfing processes. Whatever meditation practice that allows you to see very clearly would probably work fine as long as you sprinkle a bit of the 3 C&amp;#039;s as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So far dukkha translates best to stress in my experience. Anything that is &amp;#034;yours&amp;#034; tends to be hooked up to the defensive center of the brain like the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Fight-or-flight_response"&gt;Fight or Flight&lt;/a&gt; center. From wiki-&amp;#034;This response is recognized as the first stage of a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Stress_&amp;#x25;28biological&amp;#x25;29&amp;#x23;General_adaptation_syndrome"&gt;general adaptation syndrome&lt;/a&gt; that regulates &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Stress_&amp;#x25;28biological&amp;#x25;29"&gt;stress&lt;/a&gt; responses among &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vertebrate"&gt;vertebrates&lt;/a&gt; and other &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Organism"&gt;organisms&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Fight-or-flight_response&amp;#x23;cite_note-Pathology_-_Theory_Medical_Student&amp;#x2e;27s_Library-6"&gt;&amp;#034; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Seeing reality clearly over and over somehow allows the selfing processes to shut down and then the connction to the stress center is eliminated. This also tends to free up the overall process running in the brain to it&amp;#039;s benifit. &lt;br /&gt;There are many definitions of dukkha and beliefs surrounding them. My explanation is just one from my experiences so far and I am sure that there is much more to it.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hmmm, okay seeing the moment to moment sensations as they are and labelling them as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.....SCREEECCHHH!!!! Too late, If the mind has gone this far, THEN Investigation of Phenomenon would be prescribed, &amp;#034;sprinkling&amp;#034; the investigation of anicca, dukkha, anatta.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, what I am trying to point to, is the chance at the pre-emptive strike, proaction, BEFORE Craving arises, BEFORE labelling the sensations, for it seems that if one continually lets all sensations arise to the labelling stage one has missed the train.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to re-formulate, the phenomenon of a pleasant . unpleasant or neutral sensation occurs, then one just stays with Equanimity, not letting the mind waver and/ or react.  This also presupposes that one is training their mind in Right Effort:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First , to abandon an unwholesome state that has already arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Second, to not let unwholesome state arise that has not yet arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Third, to arouse a wholesome state that has not yet arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fourth, to maintain a wholesome state that has already arisen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then, when one has established the fourth effort and maintains the fourth effort, (wholesome state being Brahma Viharas, and Equanimity being Supreme of those)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, to re-re-formulate, in this way one can cut off craving at the pass, so to speak, and thus dukkhawill not follow, at least from each successful mind moment that is maintained by Bare Attention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, that being all said, Investigated with the 3C&amp;#039;s investigations and contemplations, or Noting phenomenon, or other methods not as yet mentioned are all excellent to pull the mind from the mud and molasses of craving and clinging.  escpecially, since many mental formations, cravings, and clinging patterns, may and do exist pre-dating themselves form time immemorial.  But, in order to work on pre-existing craving and clinging fetters, one should STOP the adding to the pre-existing craving and clinging fetters.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do want to add that establishing Equanimity and noting all sensations and phenomenon as they arise and pass away, is very important.  From my view, it seems as if , supposing one is being an objective observer in equanimity, that when phenomenon arises and passes away, it kind of &amp;#034;burns&amp;#034; itself out on the shores of Equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Noting, the definition of noting, seems to not convey what is actually and eventually needed when observing phenomenon.  But, is there a better word in the english language?  Noting seems to preclude that one &amp;#034;verbalizes&amp;#034; each phenomenon, this is not so true, but can be a useful tool.  Can&amp;#039;t &amp;#034;Noting&amp;#034; be , (aware of phenomenon without criticism)  or instead of noting, isn&amp;#039;t NOTICING a better word?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have to get to the second part of your post later, but want to add that , yes, exiting out of the craving and clinging trap, overrides the response system involved in the general adaptation syndrome, not kind of like ahacking the system, but mindfulness, (Mind Full of the Present Moment) is definitely and intentionally hacking the system.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for interacting, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many Blessings to all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 12:50:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536159</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T12:50:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5535996</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Craving is the root, what is Craving?  Wanting or wishing to have some thing or situation, and the flip-side, wanting or wishing to not have a situation as it is or wanting some thing. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Well that is one way to look at it. I would say that if you are seeing the moment to moment sensations as they are and labeling them as pleasant, neutral or unpleasant I think this would be a fine practice. I would add a little of the 3 C&amp;#039;s too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Also, if craving is not let to arise, there is no &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; illusion present either, if there is no wanting something or not wanting something, there doesn&amp;#039;t have to be an &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; present either.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hmmm....don&amp;#039;t know about that. Could you explain why you think this? &lt;br /&gt;I tend to think that seeing reality very clearly might be the key to letting go of the layers of selfing processes. Whatever meditation practice that allows you to see very clearly would probably work fine as long as you sprinkle a bit of the 3 C&amp;#039;s as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So far dukkha translates best to stress in my experience. Anything that is &amp;#034;yours&amp;#034; tends to be hooked up to the defensive center of the brain like the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Fight-or-flight_response"&gt;Fight or Flight&lt;/a&gt; center. From wiki-&amp;#034;This response is recognized as the first stage of a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Stress_&amp;#x25;28biological&amp;#x25;29&amp;#x23;General_adaptation_syndrome"&gt;general adaptation syndrome&lt;/a&gt; that regulates &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Stress_&amp;#x25;28biological&amp;#x25;29"&gt;stress&lt;/a&gt; responses among &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Vertebrate"&gt;vertebrates&lt;/a&gt; and other &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Organism"&gt;organisms&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Fight-or-flight_response&amp;#x23;cite_note-Pathology_-_Theory_Medical_Student&amp;#x2e;27s_Library-6"&gt;&amp;#034; &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Seeing reality clearly over and over somehow allows the selfing processes to shut down and then the connction to the stress center is eliminated. This also tends to free up the overall process running in the brain to it&amp;#039;s benifit. &lt;br /&gt;There are many definitions of dukkha and beliefs surrounding them. My explanation is just one from my experiences so far and I am sure that there is much more to it.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 02:52:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5535996</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T02:52:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>The Root of Dukkha</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5535985</link> <description>The Root of Dukkha&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Craving is the root, what is Craving?  Wanting or wishing to have some thing or situation, and the flip-side, wanting or wishing to not have a situation as it is or wanting some thing.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Where does Craving come from?  From  sensations , any kind of sensation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So what happens? A sensation happens, then the &amp;#034;mind&amp;#034; registers pleasant or unpleasant.  STOP THERE, insert bare attention, or pure mindfulness, no judgement or criticsm, let the sensation slide off immediately without reacitng.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So what happens , again? A sensation happens, that&amp;#039;s it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as I can tell, this is the core practice that cuts off craving.  Then by continually cutting off craving at the point of origin, craving is abandoned, and thereby craving stops receiving nourishment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So then, just as one would observe a campfire, and if one would not add any more wood to the campfire the campfire will eventually die out.  But this takes patience and perserverence, even when the fire is hot, one must remain unmoved, even when the fire is going out, and one is cold, one must not add fuel to the fire.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Support to make it easier to deal with craving?  The Noble Eightfold path, Cultivating the Seven Factors of Enlightenment, and all the other wholesome techniques and willpower one can muster.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, my main point is to eliminate Craving at the source of the infection, in the present moment and from moment to moment, especially during daily activities, formal meditation being the training groundwork for all other life activities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this sound about right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So far this has been my experience, for when the craving is not cultivated , it does not arise, and the mind remains still.  If craving is nourished and let to arise, well, then the whole mess of shit starts to roll....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, if craving is not let to arise, there is no &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; illusion present either, if there is no wanting something or not wanting something, there doesn&amp;#039;t have to be an &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; present either.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, by the way, (if anyone were to ask), yes &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; have work to do upon this mind, and no, my task is not done.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any comments or questions??  Does this sound like the most direct way to the source of  Dukkha?  Did I make sense to anyone?  Is this the same path different words?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Upekkha&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bryan</description> <pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2014 00:46:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5535985</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-21T00:46:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Daily Mahasi practice in combination with occasional samatha [Eudoxos .] [M</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527570</link> <description>Daily Mahasi practice in combination with occasional samatha [Eudoxos .] &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eudoxos . - 2014-04-28 09:40:32 - Daily Mahasi practice in combination with occasional samatha&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi everybody,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am fairly new here. I&amp;#039;ve been doing daily non-buddhist concentration practices since 1998, then stopped in 2008 due to psychosomatic problems (spiritual perfectionism), went almost by accident to the basic course in the Ajahn Tong tradition in Dhammacari in 2011; that solved most by physical&amp;amp;neurotical troubles, I&amp;#039;ve done 8 retreats with various teachers from that tradition since then, with (extended) fruitions in last 2.5 years, and substantial changes to my personality (in good ways) and such.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the Ajahn Tong tradition, concentration practices are really recommended against (they lead to attachment since they are pleasant, suck up a lot of energy, and don&amp;#039;t lead to permanent uprooting of suffering - those are arguments I&amp;#039;ve heard).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In last few weeks, besides daily vipassana practice (usually 30/30 walking/sitting), I try to do 30-60 minutes of samatha (breath concentration) practices when I have time. When in a good shape (not tired and such), I go up to the 2nd or 3rd jhana, usually spelling out some intention when the practice is finished (regarding insight of mine or people close to me, or in general - sort-of like the traditional metta meditation); developing some basic siddhi would be welcome, though it is not the goal.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Contrary to what MCBT says, I don&amp;#039;t seem to experience pleasant states during samatha (save for absence of unpleasant feelings, plus some kind of self-satisfaction from being able to make the mind very concentrated). After the practice, I usually have higher &amp;#034;energy level&amp;#034; (mind buzzing, but in a sort-of pleasant way), but also being less grounded (which already is my problem in daily live usually), as if slowed down externally and sped up internally.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, well, the questions I am asking myself (and I welcome any comments on) are: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* how is the pleasure aspect to be cultivated? Is it desirable? My sense of pleasure has been rather damaged through my extreme renunciation before I started vipassana and learned to accept myself a bit, could that be the root cause, and perhaps also a thing I might deal with in samatha by focusing on the pleasure aspect? &lt;br /&gt;* is there an interference between vipassana and samatha, when practiced in separate sessions?&lt;br /&gt;* how strongly should I concentrate on the object (breath)? I am generally over-concentrated (being programmer, my usual problem when being with people, with headaches and such), perhaps I am missing the pleasure because I ignore it?&lt;br /&gt;* anything else basically &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers!</description> <pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2014 09:59:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527570</guid> <dc:creator>Migration 6.2 Daemon</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-07T09:59:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for some pointers re: current practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5361870</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This link came to mind.... - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;jaytek&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;KFD&amp;#x2f;KFDForumOld&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;wetpaint&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;page&amp;#x2f;Jhana&amp;#x25;2Band&amp;#x25;2B&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;91ana&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Herding chickens Kenneth Folk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;An extremely interesting read -- I have to say that this served to un-muddy the water. Thanks very much for passing it along.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also went over the MCTB&amp;#039;s descriptions of the nanas (material I hadn&amp;#039;t revisited in some time) and Daniel&amp;#039;s description of &amp;#034;formations&amp;#034; under Equanimity were eerily congruent with my own &amp;#034;fields of experience.&amp;#034; Still, I tend to be reluctant to declare myself as experiencing any particular insight territory for fear of supplanting what &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; for what &lt;em&gt;should be&lt;/em&gt;. After all, isn&amp;#039;t a misapprehension of our interpretation of reality for reality itself the whole god damn problem?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, I popped through an A&amp;amp;P during a dream last night. Typical coursing, turbulent somatic energy stuff followed by a complete fracture and collapse of perceptual awareness, reminiscent of experiences one might encounter on psychedelics. Woke up to bliss waves for a short time thereafter and then immediately into dukkha nana territory. Rode these out doing samatha in savasana and it was oddly enjoyable in spite of the territory covered, like hearing a good ghost story. This morning I awoke in jhana with heavy piti and sukha, so dense I wasn&amp;#039;t able to determine the position or location of my body for some time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For the moment, feels an awful lot like equanimity, but who knows!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:36:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5361870</guid> <dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-30T20:36:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for some pointers re: current practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5361093</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;John M.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;First, object has shifted from the breath to stillness itself. This wasn&amp;#039;t deliberate, and it took a couple sits to even realize what was happening. Lately, I relax directly into stillness from the word go. I might hit jhana, I might not. The sense of stillness is so nourishing and enveloping that I find myself mostly indifferent in that regard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Secondly, with stillness as object, my &amp;#034;fields of experience&amp;#034; have broadened significantly. They tend to be much more spacious and inclusive (especially in contrast to breath as object). These fields form, expand, contract and eventually collapse entirely. Increasingly, awareness is drawn toward and rests within the shifting qualities of stillness and space that these fields create, more so than the comparatively frenetic activities of any &amp;#034;discrete&amp;#034; phenomena.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Briefly put, a shift from micro to macro. I hope that makes sense as I&amp;#039;m at a loss for how else to describe it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All of this feels intuitive enough and the gains in concentrative steadiness are notable. I&amp;#039;ve hit a couple states as a result of this practice that were absolutely solid and imperturbable. Left to my own devices, I&amp;#039;d no doubt continue down this path. However, I can&amp;#039;t quite shrug off the feeling that I might be fooling or otherwise short-changing myself, perhaps having veered too early from pure concentrative development. Or, is this a reasonable foundation from which to pursue insight?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Kinda sounds like Equanimity...a little insite; a dash of 3 C&amp;#039;s and some EQ and BAM...you got a recipe for stream entry. The unfolding sounds like it&amp;#039;s going well...see what comes up next. (could also be A&amp;amp;P depending on your jhanas definition)&lt;br /&gt;This link came to mind.... - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;jaytek&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;KFD&amp;#x2f;KFDForumOld&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;wetpaint&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;page&amp;#x2f;Jhana&amp;#x25;2Band&amp;#x25;2B&amp;#x25;C3&amp;#x25;91ana&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Herding chickens Kenneth Folk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2014 05:26:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5361093</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-30T05:26:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Looking for some pointers re: current practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360224</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5234426"&gt;Practice log, for reference&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Initially my sits focused on developing concentrative awareness through observation of the breath. However, I&amp;#039;ve noticed a shift within the past couple weeks and am hoping for input from more experienced practitioners (read: just about everyone!)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First, object has shifted from the breath to stillness itself. This wasn&amp;#039;t deliberate, and it took a couple sits to even realize what was happening. Lately, I relax directly into stillness from the word go. I might hit jhana, I might not. The sense of stillness is so nourishing and enveloping that I find myself mostly indifferent in that regard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Secondly, with stillness as object, my &amp;#034;fields of experience&amp;#034; have broadened significantly. They tend to be much more spacious and inclusive (especially in contrast to breath as object). These fields form, expand, contract and eventually collapse entirely. Increasingly, awareness is drawn toward and rests within the shifting qualities of stillness and space that these fields create, more so than the comparatively frenetic activities of any &amp;#034;discrete&amp;#034; phenomena.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Briefly put, a shift from micro to macro. I hope that makes sense as I&amp;#039;m at a loss for how else to describe it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All of this feels intuitive enough and the gains in concentrative steadiness are notable. I&amp;#039;ve hit a couple states as a result of this practice that were absolutely solid and imperturbable. Left to my own devices, I&amp;#039;d no doubt continue down this path. However, I can&amp;#039;t quite shrug off the feeling that I might be fooling or otherwise short-changing myself, perhaps having veered too early from pure concentrative development. Or, is this a reasonable foundation from which to pursue insight?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any and all thoughts welcome!</description> <pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:28:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360224</guid> <dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-29T23:28:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Skillfulness through the 4 frames of reference, a practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5184818</link> <description>There&amp;#039;s no jhāna&lt;br /&gt;for one with no discernment,&lt;br /&gt; no discernment&lt;br /&gt;for one with no jhāna.&lt;br /&gt;But one with both jhāna&lt;br /&gt; &amp;amp; discernment:&lt;br /&gt; he&amp;#039;s on the verge&lt;br /&gt; of Unbinding.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#x2014; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;kn&amp;#x2f;dhp&amp;#x2f;dhp&amp;#x2e;25&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;dhp-372"&gt;Dhp 372&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Knowledge of the ending of the effluents, as it has come to be, occurs to one who is concentrated, I tell you, and not to one who is not concentrated. So concentration is the path, monks. Non-concentration is no path at all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#x2014; AN 6.64</description> <pubDate>Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:16:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5184818</guid> <dc:creator>Bruno Loff</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-04T16:16:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Skillfulness through the 4 frames of reference, a practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5170530</link> <description>Brilliant. Thanks! I had a similar intention, but really needed a better understanding of how to use the four frames of reference in terms of daily practice, and this is it.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 23:02:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5170530</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T23:02:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Skillfulness through the 4 frames of reference, a practice</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169420</link> <description>This is the main practice I plan to do for at least the first month of my upcoming retreat. It is an approach to develop skillful qualities of mind by focusing on the four frames of reference.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;Four frames of reference&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The &lt;strong&gt;four frames of reference&lt;/strong&gt; tell me what kind of objects I should pay attention to during meditation, and how I should pay attention to them. The four kinds objects that I should attend to are:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Bodily phenomena in and of themselves&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Feelings in and of themselves&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Mental phenomena in and of themselves&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Mental qualities in and of themselves&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The in-and-of-themselves part means essentially that I should pay attention to these objects in the phenomenological mode of perception. That means that I should see them in their own terms. For instance, if I focus on the body, I should not be concerned with its relative worth or utility in terms of the values of the world &amp;#x2014; its beauty, strength, agility, etc; instead, I focus merely on the sensations that are usually associated with the body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first three frames of reference stand for phenomena as they are presented to consciousness, whereas the fourth frame of reference stands for those qualities of mind which should be either abandoned or developed throughout the path.[1]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt; Bodily phenomena are things such as breath, blood flow, chi, muscle movement, etc.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; Feelings are the feeling-evaluations that are either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; Mental phenomena are things like mental chatter, cognition, intention, etc.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; Examples of mental qualities are mindfulness, or sensual desire, more generally the five hindrances and the seven factors, etc.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;Stages of development&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;According to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, the development of a given frame of reference happens in three stages (&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;wings&amp;#x2f;part2&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;part2-b"&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt; The &lt;strong&gt;first stage&lt;/strong&gt; consists of &lt;strong&gt;focusing on bodily phenomena [feelings, mental phenomena, mental qualities] in and of themselves in the present moment&lt;/strong&gt;. Here, I &lt;em&gt;remain focused on bodily phenomena [feelings, mental phenomena, mental qualities] in &amp;amp; of themselves &amp;#x2014; ardent, alert, &amp;amp; mindful &amp;#x2014; while putting aside greed &amp;amp; distress with reference to the world. &lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is essentially a concentration practice, developing the skills of mindfulness, alertness and ardency,[2] and should take me all the way to the first jhana. If I am furthermore able to drop all directed thoughts and evaluations, then I should attain the second jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; After concentration is strong, I move to the &lt;strong&gt;second stage&lt;/strong&gt;, that consists of &lt;strong&gt;understanding the causal relationships between bodily phenomena [feelings, mental phenomena, mental qualities] and other events by learning to manipulate them skillfully&lt;/strong&gt;. Here the instruction is to &lt;em&gt;remain focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to bodily phenomena [...]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to bodily phenomena [...], or on the phenomenon of both origination &amp;amp; passing away with regard to bodily phenomena [...]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;This is essentially a discernment practice. The goal here is to use the power of concentration developed in the first stage to help me in understanding this/that conditionality (what leads to what).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I might notice origination and passing away with respect to (a) skillful mental qualities, for instance noticing that certain postures are conductive to feeling alert, or that I can become more calm and equanimous by breathing in a certain way. I might also notice origination and passing away of (b) unskillful mental qualities, for instance noticing that I always feel tense in some particular spot when my mind is restless, or that thinking of a certain theme ignites sensual desire. Finally, I might notice origination and passing away of (c) events that are neutral with respect to the development of the path (neither skillful nor unskillful). For instance I might notice that my eyesight is better in the morning, or that my left hand feels colder than my right.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the case of (c), it is enough to simply notice these conditions and let them be, but in the case of (a) or (b), it is appropriate at this stage in the practice to remember those conditions leading to skillful and unskillful mental qualities, &lt;em&gt;promote&lt;/em&gt; the former and &lt;em&gt;subdue&lt;/em&gt; the latter. This is done until the different factors for awakening have been taken to the culmination of their development.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As this process leads to stronger and more refined states of concentration, it should refine my sensitivity to the fact that the grosser my participation in the process of origination and passing away in the mind, the grosser the level of stress that results. This should lead me to let go of the grosser levels of participation as I am able to detect them. This may lead to even more refined states of concentration, as I abandon the factors that obscure equanimity, or as I focus my equanimity on ever more refined objects.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; At this point, as concentration and equanimity are very powerful, and the mind is bright and pliant, it is possible to move into the &lt;strong&gt;third stage&lt;/strong&gt; of the frames-of-reference practice, which consists of &lt;strong&gt;arriving at a state of fully developed equipoise, transcending even one&amp;#039;s skill, free from any present input into the causal network&lt;/strong&gt;. To do this, I must realize that even the process of developing equanimity is a fabricated process (fabricated for the sake of non-becoming). This should lead me to develop dispassion even for equanimity itself, and that should take me right into a state of *non-fashioning *where my mindfulness of bodily phenomena is maintained simply to the extent of &lt;em&gt;knowledge and recolection&lt;/em&gt; (?), and is completely free from any form of clinging. [3, description of the attainment]&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;A practice session&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Choose&lt;/strong&gt; a frame of reference to work with for the session.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Remain focused&lt;/strong&gt; on this frame of reference in &amp;amp; of itself &amp;#x2014; generating and protecting the qualities of mindfulness, alertness and ardency &amp;#x2014; while putting aside greed &amp;amp; distress with reference to the world.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;As concentration becomes strong and self-sustained, &lt;strong&gt;pay attention to what&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;strong&gt;leads to what&lt;/strong&gt;, with special attention to skillful and unskillful mental qualities (such as the seven factors and the five hindrances)&lt;strong&gt;.&lt;/strong&gt; I.e., besides noticing what is happening, I notice also how it affects mindfulness, concentration, sloth &amp;amp; torpor, etc.&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt; If something leads towards skillful mental qualities, I should &lt;strong&gt;promote&lt;/strong&gt; its occurence by whatever means I have available.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; If something leads towards unskillful mental qualities, &lt;strong&gt;subdue and prevent&lt;/strong&gt; its occurence by whatever means I have available. &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; (such means include inclining the mind, moving the body, tensing or relaxing somewhere, saying or thinking something, etc, here I am suposed to &lt;strong&gt;experiment&lt;/strong&gt; a lot to figure things out by myself)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Finally, &lt;strong&gt;be unwilling&lt;/strong&gt; to rest content with lesser levels of stillness when higher levels can be attained.[4] This affirmation is a good way to end the practice.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 32px"&gt;Footnotes&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[1] &lt;em&gt;The four objects that act as frames of reference fall into two classes. The first class &amp;#x2014; the body, feelings, and the mind &amp;#x2014; act as the &amp;#034;given&amp;#034; objects of meditation practice: what experience presents, on its own, as an object for meditation. The meditator takes any one of these objects as a frame of reference, relating all of experience to his/her chosen frame. For example, although one will experience feelings and mind states in the course of taking the body as a frame of reference, one tries to relate them to the experience of the body as their primary frame. A feeling is viewed as it affects the body, or the body affects it. The same holds for a mind state. (...)&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;The second class of objects &amp;#x2014; mental qualities (dhamma) &amp;#x2014; denotes the qualities of mind that are developed and abandoned as one masters the meditation. The list of &amp;#034;dhammas&amp;#034; given in §30 would seem to belie the translation &amp;#034;mental qualities&amp;#034; here, as they include not only the five hindrances and seven factors for Awakening, which are obviously mental qualities, but also the five aggregates, the six sense media, and the four noble truths, which would seem to fit better with another meaning of the word dhamma, i.e., &amp;#034;phenomena.&amp;#034; However, if we look more closely at each of these other classes, we will see that they actually deal with variant forms of abandoning the hindrances and developing the factors for Awakening. The section on the sense media focuses less on the media than on the abandoning of the fetters &amp;#x2014; passion and delight (SN 41.1; MFU pp. 52-53) &amp;#x2014; associated with those media. The section on the aggregates describes a state of practice that is elsewhere [§149] identified as a developed form of concentration, in which the aggregates that comprise the state of jhāna form the object of analysis [§173]. The section on the noble truths describes a state of practice that elsewhere [§169] is said to require the sort of mental stability and clarity found only in jhāna. Thus all the approaches to &amp;#034;dhammas in and of themselves&amp;#034; would appear to be variations on the abandoning of the hindrances and the development of the factors for Awakening. Because the stated function of the frames of reference is to bring about the culmination of the factors for Awakening, and through them the development of clear knowing and release [§92], the translation of dhamma as &amp;#034;mental quality&amp;#034; seems an appropriate way to keep that function in mind and to avoid getting lost in the details of its different aspects. &lt;/em&gt;&amp;#x2014; Thanissaro Bhikkhu&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[2] Four terms in this passage are key. &amp;#034;Remaining focused&amp;#034; (anupassin) can also be translated as &amp;#034;keeping track.&amp;#034; This denotes the element of concentration in the practice, as one tries to stay with one particular theme in the midst of the welter of experience. &amp;#034;Ardent&amp;#034; (atapi) denotes the factor of effort or exertion in the practice; the Commentary equates this with right exertion, which contains an element of discernment in its ability to distinguish skillful from unskillful mental qualities. &amp;#034;Alert&amp;#034; (sampajano) means being clearly aware of what is happening in the present. This, too, relates to discernment. &amp;#034;Mindful&amp;#034; (satima) literally means being able to remember or recollect. Here it means keeping one&amp;#039;s task in mind. The task here is a dual one &amp;#x2014; remaining focused on one&amp;#039;s frame of reference, and putting aside the distractions of greed and distress that would come from shifting one&amp;#039;s frame of reference back to the world. In other words, one tries to stay with the phenomenology of immediate experience, without slipping back into the narratives and world views that make up one&amp;#039;s sense of the world. In essence, this is a concentration practice, with the three qualities of ardency, alertness, and mindfulness devoted to attaining concentration. Mindfulness keeps the theme of the meditation in mind, alertness observes the theme as it is present to awareness, and also is aware of when the mind has slipped from its theme. Mindfulness then remembers where the mind should be focused, and ardency tries to return the mind to its proper theme &amp;#x2014; and to keep it there &amp;#x2014; as quickly and skillfully as possible. In this way, these three qualities help to seclude the mind from sensual preoccupations and unskillful mental qualities, thus bringing it to the first jhāna. &amp;#x2014; Thanissaro Bhikkhu&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[On attaining the fourth level of jhāna] there remains only equanimity: pure &amp;amp; bright, pliant, malleable &amp;amp; luminous. Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith&amp;#039;s apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a pair of tongs, place it in the crucible. He would blow on it periodically, sprinkle water on it periodically, examine it periodically, so that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined, flawless, free from dross, pliant, malleable &amp;amp; luminous. Then whatever sort of ornament he had in mind &amp;#x2014; whether a belt, an earring, a necklace, or a gold chain &amp;#x2014; it would serve his purpose. In the same way, there remains only equanimity: pure &amp;amp; bright, pliant, malleable, &amp;amp; luminous. He (the meditator) discerns that &amp;#039;If I were to direct equanimity as pure &amp;amp; bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space, I would develop the mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of mine &amp;#x2014; thus supported, thus sustained &amp;#x2014; would last for a long time. &amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[3] He discerns that &amp;#039;If I were to direct equanimity as pure &amp;amp; bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. &amp;#039; He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that &amp;#039;Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.&amp;#039; &amp;#x2014; MN 140&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[4] [If one is unwilling to settle for lesser levels of stillness] in this way, the stages of concentration, instead of becoming obstacles or dangers on the path, serve as stepping-stones to greater sensitivity and, through that sensitivity, to the ultimate peace where all passion, aversion, and delusion grow still. This peace thus grows from the simple choice to keep looking at the mind&amp;#039;s fabrications as processes, as actions and results. But to fully achieve this peace, your discernment has to be directed not only at the mind&amp;#039;s fabrication of the objects of its awareness, but also at its fabrications about itself and about the path it&amp;#039;s creating. Your sense of who you are is a fabrication, regardless of whether you see the mind as separate or interconnected, finite or infinite, good or bad. The path is also a fabrication: very subtle and sometimes seemingly effortless, but fabricated nonetheless. If these layers of inner fabrication aren&amp;#039;t seen for what they are &amp;#x2014; if you regard them as innate or inevitable &amp;#x2014; they can&amp;#039;t be deconstructed, and full Awakening can&amp;#039;t occur.&amp;#039; &amp;#x2014; Thanissaro Bhikkhu&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This unwillingness to settle for less than what is possible is part of &lt;em&gt;samvega.&lt;/em&gt; See &amp;#034;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;affirming&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Affirming the truths of the heart&lt;/a&gt;&amp;#034; by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;My experience with this kind of practice so far&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have never systematically and continuously did the practice described above. However, parts of my practice resemble this, and when I meditate I naturally tend to do something like paying attention to the body, and then seeing if I can release some tension from it, which is similar to a first-frame-of-reference type of practice, where the skillful quality being cultivated is mental and bodily ease. Some, but not all, of the most dramatic shifts I have experienced came when some part that was seemingly tense was relaxed by paying attention to it and trying to get that to happen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This practice is more systematic and encompassing:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt; There is an emphasis on having good concentration as a foundation for the practice: with this practice, I plan not to try and figure out what leads to what until I can sustain my concentration well enough (i.e., no dry insight).&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; The focus is not only always on the body, but on the other three frames as well.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt; The skillful qualities being cultivated are not simply &amp;#034;what intuitively feels right&amp;#034;, but there is a nice list of them that I can refer to (five hindrances and seven factors), and then evaluate: is this quality present or not? The ability to do such an evaluation is itself one of the factors, called &amp;#034;analysis of qualities&amp;#034;.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, there is a &amp;#034;map&amp;#034;. The practice I used to do (more MCTB-style) also had a map (the &amp;#034;stages of insight&amp;#034;), but after stream-entry or maybe first path I could no longer place myself in it or find it useful in some other way. I could no longer recognize cycles, and though I occasionally have fruitions and they are OK, there is nothing systematic about how they come to be, at least nothing I can tell. Also weird things happen, like for instance having a good idea, or seeing something I wasn&amp;#039;t seeing before --- but here I mean in a fully story-mode context, without any particular focus on sensations and vibrations --- and then getting a fruition. I was expecting a rise through 13 well-delimited stages ending in fruition, but what I get is a pretty random jumble of ups and downs, and some fruitions on seemingly unrelated points in time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another problem I&amp;#039;ve had with the MCTB approach: I am no longer certain which sensations are being &amp;#034;interpreted as self&amp;#034; and which are not. Though it used to seem obvious that such sensations were there, now I have the feeling that if such a misclassification ever happens, it happens when I am unaware, or in a way I cant really see. Whenever I put myself to actively look at sensations, I can&amp;#039;t really find any that I feel are &amp;#034;forming a sense of separation&amp;#034;. Though I definitely feel that something is wrong somewhere, so I&amp;#039;m certainly not done yet, so that&amp;#039;s probably still happening. But unfortunately, &amp;#034;sensations implying a sense of separation&amp;#034; seems like a vague pointer to something I am not really sure where to look for, or how to recognize.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On the other hand, practicing concentration seems pretty straightforward to me. I can certainly point out sensations of mental noise and restlessness (&amp;#034;agitation&amp;#034;) any time I decide to. So these seem like easier targets. And Thanissaro&amp;#039;s approach is more centered on these.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So this seems like a good practice, and it has a map, too, so I&amp;#039;m going to start off my retreat by practicing this.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:36:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169420</guid> <dc:creator>Bruno Loff</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T15:36:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Concentration and Mahasi-noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5011534</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think one of the best ideas is to reserve the first 10-20% of a sit to concentration practice and then note your ass off for the remainder. Personally I would favor the Mahasi retreat, but even more so I would favor year-round daily practice if you&amp;#039;re not already doing it. I would also not lean on the breath too much in the noting. If that is truly what is predominate in your awareness at that moment, note the breath, but there&amp;#039;s a lot of other stuff going on. Use the breath as more of a fall back if necessary.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric, why is it that you favor year-round daily practice? Is this because it yields more hours of meditation and therefore better results than a retreat here and there?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if one were to adapt this daily practice, what would you recommend in terms of length of meditation and whatnot?&lt;br /&gt;I know it&amp;#039;s difficult to recommend anything without first knowing my background and all that and I&amp;#039;d be more than willing to share if thats what it takes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your post has helped my practice. Thank you &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And thank you Oystein for posting the thread.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:35:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5011534</guid> <dc:creator>Travis Gene McKinstry</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-10T16:35:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Concentration and Mahasi-noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4984231</link> <description>Kind of hard to do a one size fits all answer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Generally speaking, people who end up making faster progress often have done a bit of concentration practice first, but not necessarily to the point of mastery or maybe even of basic experience of jhanas, they just did some concentration practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Mahasi style (my personal bias) seems to lead to fast progress and eventually, in many if not most cases, some experience of jhanas will arrive from the dynamic concentration of that style.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think one of the best ideas is to reserve the first 10-20% of a sit to concentration practice and then note your ass off for the remainder. Personally I would favor the Mahasi retreat, but even more so I would favor year-round daily practice if you&amp;#039;re not already doing it. I would also not lean on the breath too much in the noting. If that is truly what is predominate in your awareness at that moment, note the breath, but there&amp;#039;s a lot of other stuff going on. Use the breath as more of a fall back if necessary.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:12:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4984231</guid> <dc:creator>Eric G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-05T23:12:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Concentration and Mahasi-noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4976189</link> <description>The samatha vs. vipassana question is a biggie, one of main factors that distinguishes different approaches, and every teacher will have his say on the matter. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My ten cents is a &amp;#034;middle way&amp;#034; approach, so I woudn&amp;#039;t do one to the exclusion of another. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The mahasi technique (as I understand it) was designed as a &amp;#034;one size fits all&amp;#034; approach that a monk could teach to a lay person in a very short period of time, and if followed with disicipline and effort would be enough to get you all the way to ...somewhere nice. The pragmatic dharma community has more of a pluraistic, less dogmatic, more individualistically tailored approach, where different approaches can be employed at those times where you need them. Having a teacher to help in these decisions of what and when...helps. In the absence of a teacher though, then mahasi style is pretty straightforward, hard to mess up, and should get you results. And you don&amp;#039;t want to switch around too much and not stick with any one thing long enough to get any benefits. I guess you have to trust your instincts. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My experience (and I think is what other people say) is that it easier to get in touch with the &amp;#034;pleasure of the breath&amp;#034; - and hence jhana-ville - with breath concentration on a nostril point compared with the belly.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:53:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4976189</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-04T15:53:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Concentration and Mahasi-noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4975879</link> <description>Hi Oystein, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Welcome to the DhO :]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Oystein Dalsegg:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hello!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is my first post in this forum. Here is some background information about me and my practice:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im a 29 year old male living in Norway. &lt;br /&gt;I have practised anapansati/body scanning aka goenka/Mahasi Noting in various degrees for the last two years, but I have not achieved any of the &amp;#034;states&amp;#034; described in MCTB. Neither vipassana jhanas or samatha jhanas. I having been doing a little bit of that and a little bit of that without going wholehearted into one practice. &lt;br /&gt;So I have thought that it might be a good idea of setting up a &amp;#034;pratice-program&amp;#034;. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes! I agree: if a person wants to see a result, then it&amp;#039;s great to turn ALL of one&amp;#039;s attention sincerely and willingly to a practice within some defined time period of practice. At the end of the period of practice, it can be considered, &amp;#034;Should I keep this up?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Oystein Dalsegg:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To have some kind of structure on my practice seems like a good thing. And therefore I have some questions: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. In the Mahasi retreats I attended I have been told to use the movement of breath in stomach as the main meditation object. &lt;br /&gt;I suppose it also ok to use the breath in nostrils as the main meditation object. Is there some pros/cons between these to objects? Some times i feel its easier to concentrate while using the breath in the nostrils. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you would go to the Wikipedia entry on &amp;#034;Anapanasati Sutta&amp;#034; and the subheading of &amp;#034;Interpretations&amp;#034; you will find you are in great company. There are different ways to interpret the Pali, apparently, and so people have started traditions of both a) breathing with attention at the upper lip-nostril area and b) breathing with attention body-wide. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No matter what choice you make, eventually decide on one; each method will have sticky areas (challenges) and these challenges are pretty trivial. The dedicated practitioner can through practice and study experience the temporary mental condition of tranquillized mind with single-point focus (as called: unification of mind; jhana) and this is useful, in my bit of experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Oystein Dalsegg:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. I have read that its preferable to &amp;#034;master&amp;#034; the first jhana before practicing vipassana. &lt;br /&gt;Is it then preferable to practice for example &amp;#034;clean&amp;#034; anapanasati until one masters the first jhana and then start With for example mahasi noting? &lt;br /&gt;Or will you develop enough concentration while practicing mahasi noting? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So if you practice meditational release such that the mind is stable and single-pointedness (aka: unification of mind) arises, then insight will also happen. I think noting is used as tool which gets around the struggle to learn jhana, just the way in the West we have cognitive behavioural therapy to treat exaggerated affective states. So if you like noting, then you could do that; personally, I think noting is first a &amp;#034;dry&amp;#034; insight practice (one that comes with some aspect of analytical reasoning afterwards), but that it can move itself into a concentration practice: that the noting becomes a kasina and the mind can release its egoic arisings and that jhanic results can arise when noting becomes like this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Oystein Dalsegg:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im planning a longer retreat next summer and i dont want to attend a mahasiretreat if had been &amp;#034;smarter&amp;#034; to attend a jhanaretreat. I you know what i mean... &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it comes down to deciding what you will practice, how long you will practice and study that method and how sincerely you manage to practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Oystein Dalsegg:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be very Nice if someone would share theire experiences/knowledge around these questions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes!&lt;br /&gt;: )k</description> <pubDate>Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:37:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4975879</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-04T13:37:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Concentration and Mahasi-noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4964528</link> <description>Hello!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is my first post in this forum. Here is some background information about me and my practice:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im a 29 year old male living in Norway. &lt;br /&gt;I have practised anapansati/body scanning aka goenka/Mahasi Noting in various degrees for the last two years, but I have not achieved any of the &amp;#034;states&amp;#034; described in MCTB. Neither vipassana jhanas or samatha jhanas. I having been doing a little bit of that and a little bit of that without going wholehearted into one practice. &lt;br /&gt;So I have thought that it might be a good idea of setting up a &amp;#034;pratice-program&amp;#034;. To have some kind of structure on my practice seems like a good thing. And therefore I have some questions: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. In the Mahasi retreats I attended I have been told to use the movement of breath in stomach as the main meditation object. &lt;br /&gt;I suppose it also ok to use the breath in nostrils as the main meditation object. Is there some pros/cons between these to objects? Some times i feel its easier to concentrate while using the breath in the nostrils. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. I have read that its preferable to &amp;#034;master&amp;#034; the first jhana before practicing vipassana. &lt;br /&gt;Is it then preferable to practice for example &amp;#034;clean&amp;#034; anapanasati until one masters the first jhana and then start With for example mahasi noting? &lt;br /&gt;Or will you develop enough concentration while practicing mahasi noting? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im planning a longer retreat next summer and i dont want to attend a mahasiretreat if had been &amp;#034;smarter&amp;#034; to attend a jhanaretreat. I you know what i mean... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be very Nice if someone would share theire experiences/knowledge around these questions.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 01 Dec 2013 11:17:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4964528</guid> <dc:creator>Oystein Dalsegg</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-01T11:17:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: applying "transmission/gears" metaphor to anapanasati sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691940</link> <description>Thanks Fitter - I have a similar understanding of Kenneth Folk&amp;#039;s 3 speed transmission, where it isn&amp;#039;t so linear as the anapansati sutta. And certainly, much of the anapansati sutta would just be &amp;#039;first gear&amp;#039; in his system. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I am sort of being inspired by his metaphor of the transmission, just as a way to help me understand this particular sutta. I will check our Thanissaro Bhikku&amp;#039;s essay that you link to. I had listened to his multipart dhamma talk on the sutta a while ago, and that was also helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe a better metaphor with the anapansati sutta would be building a house, brick by brick, or something? You certainly don&amp;#039;t start with the roof.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 18:04:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691940</guid> <dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T18:04:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: applying "transmission/gears" metaphor to anapanasati sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691782</link> <description>Unless what you&amp;#039;re asking is whether or not there&amp;#039;s something analogous here. In other words, is there a kind of &amp;#034;shifting&amp;#034; that occurs in Anapanasati, even if it&amp;#039;s not the same shifting that Kenneth describes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In answer to that question, I would say &amp;#034;sort of&amp;#034;. There can be shifting in the sense that there is movement between the tetrads, and if you find that the mind is beginning to lose focus while in one of the tetrads, you can calm things down by returning to the sensations of the body, and once the body is calm, work your way back up. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The main difference, though, is that Anapanasati is a pretty linear thing, but Kenneth&amp;#039;s 3-gear transmission is not. Kenneth says (paraphrasing), &amp;#034;If you can do 3rd gear, just do 3rd gear.&amp;#034; But there&amp;#039;s very little point in just jumping into the fourth tetrad in Anapanasati, because you&amp;#039;re not tranquil or concentrated enough for work at that level to be fruitful. Instead, you build it up carefully, step by step, first calming the bodily fabrications, then the mental fabrications, and THEN looking at the development of skillful mental qualities in real time. It&amp;#039;s a more careful, step-by-step thing in my experience that doesn&amp;#039;t permit of too much jumping around.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One of my favorite essays on the Anapanasati Sutta is &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;media&amp;#x2e;audiodharma&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;documents&amp;#x2f;The_Breath_-_A_Vehicle_for_Liberation&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;The Breath as a Vehicle for Liberation&lt;/a&gt; by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, who I think is friends with Larry Rosenberg.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:14:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691782</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T17:14:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: applying "transmission/gears" metaphor to anapanasati sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691696</link> <description>You would have to ask Kenneth himself for a definitive answer to your question. I encourage you to do that, as he would probably be happy to answer. He can be reached through his site, &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;contact&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Kenneth Folk Dharma&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But my understanding is that the Anapanasati instructions are talking about jhana and the four foundations of mindfulness. These topics all fall under what Kenneth would call &amp;#034;first gear&amp;#034;.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 17:06:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691696</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T17:06:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>applying "transmission/gears" metaphor to anapanasati sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691331</link> <description>Hello, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is just a thought of mine. Kenneth Folk talks about the &amp;#039;3 speed transmission&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;downshifting when things get difficult&amp;#039;. His &amp;#039;transmission&amp;#039;, though, shifts between fairly different approaches from different traditions (no complaints here, just setting up my point).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve been sort of mentally wrestling with the anapanasati sutta for a while (MN 118), with its 16 steps. I used to drive myself nuts trying to jump around different steps. That was probably just my being neurotic, but I felt really unclear on how to deal with these 16 steps. I read Larry Rosenberg&amp;#039;s book on the sutta multiple times, but it still felt vary vague and the &amp;#039;condensed practice&amp;#039; wasn&amp;#039;t really satisfactory to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, I have lately been thinking of the 16 steps using KFD&amp;#039;s metaphor of a transmission with &amp;#039;gears&amp;#039;. &lt;u&gt;So 1st/2nd gear would be just being aware of long/short breath. &lt;/u&gt;The metaphor of transmission/gears itself answers where you should be, as Kenneth Folk remarks in one of his videos, it is about where you are getting &amp;#039;traction&amp;#039;. So if you are trying to calm the body at step 4 of the sutta, but not getting traction, then you downshift to 1st/2nd gear or 3rd gear. Or, if you are already quite calm and focused, you could shift into &lt;u&gt;high gear (the fourth tetrad&lt;/u&gt;, the last four steps) and contemplate dhammas, because that is where you are able to get traction at that ponit. So it is like at 16 speed transmission, like a mountain bike with lots of gears for very steep hills.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyways, this might be only a slight rewording of a point that is already obvious to most people. But this just made sense to me. Interested in how others handle this same issue.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mike</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:45:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691331</guid> <dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T15:45:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Retreat report and some reflections</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4150074</link> <description>Retreat report. From Thursday 28th afternoon to Monday 1st noon, so 4 days, silent at Gaia House, with Jake Dartington and Kirsten Kratz.&lt;br /&gt;Background: see &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;forum&amp;#x2f;viewtopic&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;f&amp;#x3d;5&amp;#x26;t&amp;#x3d;13"&gt;http://kennethfolkdharma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&amp;amp;t=13&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Goal: stream entry&lt;br /&gt;Result: epic win. But no stream entry ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Day 0&lt;br /&gt;Arrived in the early afternoon full of energy, and even when the retreat was starting formally at 6PM, I used the extra time before that for walking meditation with the intention to set up some good momentum for continuous attention throughout dinner, which wasn&amp;#039;t to be held in silence. Noting out loud for 45 minutes with good flow, with much pressure at the right temple and vibrating visual field towards the last half of the walk. &lt;br /&gt;Hard to keep attention continuous through dinner and improving slightly during the dharma talk later. Sat for 45 minutes after that, with fireworks similar to the walk towards the end.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Day 1&lt;br /&gt;The general feeling of this day was that of a struggle. Started the day with some samatha and was able to get into a strong 1st and 2nd jhanas, and then didn&amp;#039;t try to go further on the samatha side so I started noting. The energy ran out very soon, and I found myself battling sleepiness and dreaminess big time, during most of the sits. To top it all, I decided that during the rest period after lunch I&amp;#039;d use the time to do walking meditation. About the worst thing I could have done for my energy. The walks were relatively mindful but still much more distracted than I would have liked. No recognisable progression through the ñanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Day 2&lt;br /&gt;Woke up with much more energy, and most meditations were spent in good mindfulness, but still was sloppy off the cushion. Good concentration up to 2nd jhana in the first sit. Then did pure vipassana and managed to climb up the ñanas throughout the morning, at the apparent pace of one vipassana jhana per period of practice (30 minutes). Also used the rest period after lunch to do walking meditation. The sit after that was very sleepy, but only for that sit. Mindfulness good, and for the rest of the day I kept feeling strong pressure at both temples, intense tension at the third eye area and also a lot of tingling at the crown that soon morphed into pressure, like someone trying to drill a hole into it. In one of the last sits I felt this sucking sensation under the crown. All this activity was met with much excitement and the heart was often beating very fast when the energetic activity at the crown unfolded. Lots of Path thoughts, progress thoughts, and trying to figure out what is missing from my investigation before I can get Path. Spending some time caught in trains of thought about that before reacting and noting them as just one more phenomenon. Beating myself up after reacting to them, but that bit was seen immediately. Towards the end of the day, concentration waned somewhat and I found myself wandering in thoughts about random stuff. But path thoughts and frustration about not getting it were big.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As an aside, since about two months ago, pretty much ALL of my sittings feature a thought about different moments of my trip to Dublin in February last year. It wasn&amp;#039;t an important trip for me, it lasted only a weekend, and I never think about it off the cushion, it&amp;#039;s just something random that comes up. I&amp;#039;ve done other weekend trips but they never appear during my sits. It&amp;#039;s so random. The retreat included its fair share of them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Day 3&lt;br /&gt;I woke up full of energy after a pleasant night&amp;#039;s rest and noted from the moment I woke up for the first time. It was really easy to do it, as the thoughts at that time were so gross and obvious. Got into the first sit while already noting, and I got the same pattern of sensations described in Day 2, but less intense and with extra warmth added on the whole left side of the face. Path thoughts were less pervasive and I felt more accepting of reality just the way it was. At 11 I had my only individual interview with the teacher, where I described my experiences and striving and asked &amp;#034;what&amp;#039;s missing from my practice to get Stream Entry&amp;#034;, to which he answered &amp;#034;what&amp;#039;s missing from the present moment?&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;see if you can balance your thoughts on the future and the developmental approach with more of a sense of acceptance of what is already here&amp;#034;, and finally recommended I do a longer retreat. I took in really deeply his advice on letting go, although my initial thought about it was &amp;#034;but I&amp;#039;m going for stream entry not rigpa!&amp;#034;. During the rest of the day I gradually let go of my intention to &amp;#034;get&amp;#034; Path and the mind grew increasingly separate from those thoughts. Path thoughts kept arising, but I wasn&amp;#039;t invested in them any longer. Together with this, more thoughts started to arise about the after-retreat life. By the time I fully internalised this acceptance, my mindfulness was already getting weaker. Physical sensations towards the middle and end of this day were of the same type and intensity as on Day 2. The were quite a few moments when I asked myself, both during and outside meditation, what was missing from the present moment, and I found all was perfect. A few seconds later, a nagging mind thread would kick off along the lines of &amp;#034;isn&amp;#039;t that called Conformity? Why am I not enlightened yet?&amp;#034;. That thought took progressively longer to arise as the day went on.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Day 4&lt;br /&gt;Very little (around 45 minutes) formal meditation and silence broke quite early, so little to comment at this point. Integrating the effects. Mainly, craving for Path has diminished noticeably. It is still desired by the thinking mind, but the gut has definitely let go of it at some level. Unsure about the extent of this letting go, and the extent of just scripting it because I rationally know it&amp;#039;s needed, but I guess time will tell.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;End of the retreat report.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some overly intellectual reflections on what I thought was a requirement for Path, spun on purpose when in bed after my last meditation yesterday (also lying down in bed, a nice samatha practice which helps greatly for sleep when not sleepy) :&lt;br /&gt;1. Continuity of attention (source: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;2468036&amp;#x23;_19_message_2468896"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2468036#_19_message_2468896&lt;/a&gt; ). I initially aimed hardcore for 100% mindfulness throughout the day and all I got is burnout. I realised I needed to be gentle, even at the expense of some lapses. But then I got more lapses than I would have liked. &lt;br /&gt;2. Trying to figure out what core process of the mind I hadn&amp;#039;t noticed yet (source: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;2472907"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2472907&lt;/a&gt; , search for &amp;#034;land a Fruition&amp;#034;). That led me to intellectual, conceptual enquiry, but I couldn&amp;#039;t find any way to do a direct investigation of that question. &lt;br /&gt;3. Balance concentration and investigation while powering up both of them with energy.&lt;br /&gt;4. Letting go.&lt;br /&gt;5. Particular experiences, like energy patterns shifting from the third eye area to the crown (got quite a bit of those, see various practice logs in DhO around Hi EQ) and seeing the mind inclining to investigate the empty parts during the vibrations, like silences while the hearing is vibrating or dark frames while the visual field is flashing (got a little of those as well during day 3 but could as well have scripted them massively. Source: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;alohadharma&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;the-map&amp;#x2f;equanimity-2&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/equanimity-2/&lt;/a&gt; , see &amp;#034;tapping&amp;#034;).&lt;br /&gt;6. An amazing insight (source: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;mahasi&amp;#x2f;progress&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;ch6&amp;#x2e;12"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch6.12&lt;/a&gt; , and also various practice logs). But also some other logs don&amp;#039;t feature this, so I wonder if it&amp;#039;s universal and fixed at ~15 minutes before the Path moment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems to me that 1, 2, 3 or 4 or some combination of them is required for Path, but I&amp;#039;m not sure what the relative importance of each is. And that 5 and 6 are just markers expected to arise en route to Path, and one can&amp;#039;t do anything direct to experience them, they are just byproducts of this development. But I&amp;#039;m not necessary if they are necessary, sufficient or both, for a Path moment to occur.&lt;br /&gt;Reflect less and note more? Maybe. But also figuring these things out intellectually will help me better understand how to best allocate these efforts.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 02 Apr 2013 00:18:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4150074</guid> <dc:creator>Nick P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-02T00:18:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4008952</link> <description>I have found that investigating inside jhana is not easy and should be done &lt;u&gt;gently&lt;/u&gt; at least at first, otherwise you will most likely be thrown out of the jhana into 1st nana. It is something I have only been able to approach relatively recently.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It should be said though that even if you involuntarily exit the jhana and start cycling through the nanas, there will be a considerable benefit from a sustained period of concentration and tranquillity beforehand, over dry insight practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 19:27:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4008952</guid> <dc:creator>Dodge E Knees</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-13T19:27:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4007994</link> <description>with strong enough concentration, and I mean REALLY strong, the sort of concentration that has visualized objects bright and clear and well-developed, as in MCTB&amp;#039;s candle flame descriptions, with no distractions arising, and using non-physical objects such as candle flame image sequence described there or others, and barely any to no bodily sensations arising, as one is strongly in that world, it is possible, if one attends to the moving, fluxing nature of those objects, and with proper understanding of how to navigate the strange aspects of attention in the 3rd jhana, it is possibly to bypass DN effects almost entirely, and thus, doing it in realms of light, image, and geometry, to have no significant problems&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;for me, getting to that level of concentration takes me about 10 days of constant work on retreat&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;others might be able to get there faster&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;some don&amp;#039;t seem to be able to get there at all&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thus, this is not an easy solution, but it serves as proof of concept that it can at least be done somehow, and thus can likely be done by other methods also&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;if you try this method, realize that the standard jhanic traps await&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;d</description> <pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:27:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4007994</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-13T14:27:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4007301</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If accessable, fabricate the 4th jhana, and then note, pay attention towards the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. all the movements, creations, sparks, urges, shifts, formations of mind. It is how I got to &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;yogis-journal-from-chronic-dark-night&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;1st path&lt;/a&gt; as talked of around here.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just to be clear - you didn&amp;#039;t bypass the DN nanas altogether, did you? That is, before 1st path, you did go through them and experience them until you got to 11 nana the vipassana way (that is, Mind &amp;amp; Body, Cause &amp;amp; Effect, 3Cs, A&amp;amp;P, Dark Night, then finally Equanimity)? It sounds like what you quoted yourself saying happened only after you had gotten to high equanimity already anyway, without having had access to all 4 jhanas.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just to be clear, yes I did experience them and no I did not bypass a &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039; like experience over the years pre-1st. I also had no samatha jhana access unlike others have expressed having on this thread. I think they could use such access to their advantage, which would have been an ideal way to walk the path if I was to walk it again, that is if I had known what I was getting myself into previously. I did not. A 10 day goenka course just plonked me in such territory. I had no samatha jhana access until 10 years later a day before 1st path occured. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The dukkha nanas are &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039;. Thy do not have to be set up as a period of personal crap and suffering. Fabricate the path over that stuff, see the dukkha nanas as &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039; as opposed to set periods of misery, what &amp;#039;knowledge&amp;#039; do they impart? Samatha on up to the 4th jhana, switch to paying close attention to the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. formations of mind and body and let things do themselves. Note the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; if you will. You fabricate your path.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also just to be clear, in your experience, were the dukkha nanas (I&amp;#039;m asking about pre-1st path in particular) a period of personal crap and suffering? I remember you saying you practiced for 8 years before getting 1st path (correct me if I&amp;#039;m wrong) - how much of that was going through the dukkha nanas and how much of that was periods of misery?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hard to say what was what these days, as it&amp;#039;s all &amp;#039;in hindsight&amp;#039; whether life stuff corresponded with out-of-nowhere unpleasantness or not. I think assigning such meaning to every unpleasant experience I had to be dubious. I do think &amp;#039;beliefs&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;views&amp;#039; condition how the mind reacts or does not react, what is fabricated, how one relates to experience, how experience plays out and what one does and does not do in one&amp;#039;s practice. Assigning a projected idea of &amp;#039;dark&amp;#039; (from the notion of a &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039;) to anything being called a &amp;#039;dukkha nana&amp;#039; can be problematic, as it could condition a specific way of relating and reacting to phenomena which simply results in an overlay of mental unsatisfactoriness. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Questioning, seeing the cessation of and perhaps changing the view of what the &amp;#039;dukkha nanas&amp;#039; are could well bypass the blind fabrication of &amp;#039;dark-ness&amp;#039; that was previously assigned to such stages by the taking onboard of the belief that such stages are and always will be experiences of misery set in stone. Stabilizing and making the mind more pliant and malleable, such as when one cultivates samatha jhana, could also aid one in bypassing much of the five hindrance &amp;#039;darkness&amp;#039; of a &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039;, by subduing such blind subjective reactions temporarily in order to reach prime baseline shifting territory (11th nana/4th jhana).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;An experience/stage that will always be &amp;#039;dark&amp;#039; and miserable for me&amp;#039; VERSUS &amp;#039;an experience/stage to gain knowledge/wisdom from in order to progress in the eventual dismantling and cessation of such a miserable &amp;#039;me&amp;#039;? I think as a belief/view, each is going to condition differing results for the yogi. In later stages, shifting such a view eventually led to an absence of a &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039; in my own experience, thus I give such advice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be clear, my advice is for anyone with the 4th samatha jhana access wondering how to utilise such access. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2 cents subject to change,&lt;br /&gt;Nick&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edited a few times as per usual.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 06:45:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4007301</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-13T06:45:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4006594</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Brother Pussycat:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;FWIW, I&amp;#039;ve seen people claim that yoga, tai chi, qi gong and similar can make the DN pretty much a non-entity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You might also wanna have a look here: http://www.dhammasukha.org &lt;br /&gt;Bhante Vimalaramsi supposedly says that if you practice according to his instructions, there will be no DN.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some Taoist lineages have much more intense A&amp;amp;P and DN, as they celebrate energetic phenomena. They tend to bypass thoughts by focusing 100% in the body plus long and sometimes heavy bodywork.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Other Taoist lineages flatten &lt;u&gt;both&lt;/u&gt; A&amp;amp;P and DN, in a long signpost-less journey towards Equanimity. In other words, things happen but are not investigated. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have briefly tried Bhante V&amp;#039;s method, and the one (big) difference I see is that after after releasing tension you ought to &amp;#034;smile&amp;#034;, an &lt;u&gt;active&lt;/u&gt; technique to install a positive feedback. Plus, they put quite an emphasis on Metta.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:20:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4006594</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-12T23:20:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005718</link> <description>FWIW, I&amp;#039;ve seen people claim that yoga, tai chi, qi gong and similar can make the DN pretty much a non-entity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You might also wanna have a look here: http://www.dhammasukha.org &lt;br /&gt;Bhante Vimalaramsi supposedly says that if you practice according to his instructions, there will be no DN.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:30:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005718</guid> <dc:creator>Brother Pussycat</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-12T16:30:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005677</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If accessable, fabricate the 4th jhana, and then note, pay attention towards the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. all the movements, creations, sparks, urges, shifts, formations of mind. It is how I got to &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;yogis-journal-from-chronic-dark-night&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;1st path&lt;/a&gt; as talked of around here.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just to be clear - you didn&amp;#039;t bypass the DN nanas altogether, did you? That is, before 1st path, you did go through them and experience them until you got to 11 nana the vipassana way (that is, Mind &amp;amp; Body, Cause &amp;amp; Effect, 3Cs, A&amp;amp;P, Dark Night, then finally Equanimity)? It sounds like what you quoted yourself saying happened only after you had gotten to high equanimity already anyway, without having had access to all 4 jhanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The dukkha nanas are &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039;. Thy do not have to be set up as a period of personal crap and suffering. Fabricate the path over that stuff, see the dukkha nanas as &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039; as opposed to set periods of misery, what &amp;#039;knowledge&amp;#039; do they impart? Sanatha on up to the 4th jhana, switch to paying close attention to the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. formations of mind and body and let things do themselves. Note the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; if you will. You fabricate your path.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also just to be clear, in your experience, were the dukkha nanas (I&amp;#039;m asking about pre-1st path in particular) a period of personal crap and suffering? I remember you saying you practiced for 8 years before getting 1st path (correct me if I&amp;#039;m wrong) - how much of that was going through the dukkha nanas and how much of that was periods of misery?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:53:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005677</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-12T15:53:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005488</link> <description>Thanks Nick for your advice here - really helpful - I will try this and see what happens and thanks BB for starting the thread.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regards&lt;br /&gt;Rod&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 11:34:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4005488</guid> <dc:creator>Rod C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-12T11:34:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004757</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;B B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If the 4th jhana corresponds to the 11th nana, is it possible to bypass the dukkha nanas by practicing samatha up to the 4th jhana, then &amp;#034;vipassanizing&amp;#034; it, arriving in EQ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If this is not possible, why is this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What got me thinking about this was a passage from &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;ie&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;01&amp;#x2f;talking-in-jhanas&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;, where Nikolai Halay writes:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;a yogi could technically bypass the &amp;#034;rougher&amp;#034; dukkha nanas via developing direct access to the first four &amp;#034;samatha&amp;#034; jhanas and practice discernment in them. Either way, &lt;strong&gt;if a yogi gets to the same strata of mind that is the 11th nana/4th jhana, a path moment is on the agenda.&lt;/strong&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The reason I ask is because my samatha practice really took off a few weeks ago (I can now reliably enter all 8 jhanas), but any attempts I&amp;#039;ve made at dissolving any coarse blocks of sensation from within these jhanas (even when concentration is especially strong and there&amp;#039;s very little discernible mental movement) have proven disappointing, often with no real increased ability to perceive more subtle sensations at all (I should add that I&amp;#039;ve only ever tried this for a few seconds at most). So I&amp;#039;m unsure whether to continue with samatha as I&amp;#039;ve been doing, down that long, dark tunnel towards Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s definition of jhana (actually I&amp;#039;m getting some faint nimitta now and a gradual loss of hearing, so that&amp;#039;s promising), or to take up vipassana again.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another consideration is that I&amp;#039;m currently doing a very tough computer science degree, so if I really am below the A&amp;amp;P (as was the conclusion reached &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3524213"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;), I&amp;#039;d definitely like to stay that way. I&amp;#039;m finding that hard to believe though, given that any time I&amp;#039;ve stopped for a few moments and entered (very light) jhana in daily life, it always seems to be 3rd or 4th, and my mood always seems to be correspondingly anxious/irritable or calm/equanimous, plus some recent, more intense experiences that seem to roughly match up with descriptions of the A&amp;amp;P and DN symptoms when my concentration has been stronger.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice on where I&amp;#039;m at and what I should do would be great.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is much experimenting you could do to use the jhana access you have to lead to &amp;#039;progress&amp;#039; and permanent perceptual and suffering level baseline shifts. You could use such access to see what each jhana is empty of in sequential order such as explained in the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2012&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;appreciation-cula-sunnata-sutta&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;culasunnata sutta&lt;/a&gt;. You could do a bit of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;07&amp;#x2f;yogi-toolbox-actualizing-jhanas&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;juxtaposing&lt;/a&gt;, experimenting with how the jhanas are viewed and &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;yogi-toolbox-pceaf-like-approach-to&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;experienced&lt;/a&gt;. In the last link at the end of the article is a list of suttas that might trigger curiosity and experimentation utilising the access one has expressed, seeing how the jhanas can be utilised to bring on positive chnages in one&amp;#039;s life. An example of bypassing the &amp;#039;darkness&amp;#039; of a &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039;, would maybe be &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;106&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;this sutta.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Experiment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 00:04:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004757</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-12T00:04:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004750</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Rod C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thanks for asking this question B.B. - I am experiencing exactly the same thing at the moment and was considering asking the same thing. I routinely move through the Shamatha Jhanas to 4 and have probably been in 5th but haven&amp;#039;t tried much to go beyond 4 thought. Apparently 4th Jhana and 11th Nana (on the maps) are the same strata of mind so to the same question - if you can reach and abide in 4th Jhana firstly how related is that to 11 nana and secondly can you progress from within that level? I have tried Vipassana in 4th and not really sure what I am doing either. So hopefully a good answer from someone here will be forthcoming.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks&lt;br /&gt;Rod&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Consider Tarin&amp;#039;s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2012&amp;#x2f;10&amp;#x2f;the-yogi-toolbox-attaining-jhana&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;advice&lt;/a&gt; on how to cultivate the 4th jhana:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4th jhana is the background mind apparent in equanimity regarding formations stage (11th nana). Open awareness, wide, panoramic, still, neutral. open sky, clouds moving through.. except, for these shamatha purposes, ignore the clouds and solidify the sky. This one is my personal favourite.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If accessable, fabricate the 4th jhana, and then note, pay attention towards the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. all the movements, creations, sparks, urges, shifts, formations of mind. It is how I got to &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;yogis-journal-from-chronic-dark-night&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;1st path&lt;/a&gt; as talked of around here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;On this day an amazing discovery: I discovered that I had access to the first 4 jhanas. I really don&amp;#039;t know how this happened. It just felt like a gift and I really am not too familiar with jhanas anyway but I checked and they so correspond to their descriptions. No idea how. One moment I was in high equanimity and the next I just found how I could will the mind into an absorbed version of the 11th nana which I intuitively knew as the 4th jhana. I even experimented with 5th, 6th, 7th and maybe 8th but they felt weak and also I had this strong intuition that they weren’t necessary and I basically could use the 1st, 2nd and 3rd to get to the 4th again and from there keep noting away at the sensations of the illusory &amp;#034;Self&amp;#034;. It was so fascinating and my resolve to attain 1st path got stronger.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In hindsight, i ignored the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; and solidified the &amp;#039;sky&amp;#039; while in the 11th nana thus discovering instant access to 4th jhana. From there i would will the mind at each sit on that course up to the 4th jhana and then switch to paying close attention to the fabrications, formations, objects, subject, all the movments of the entire field of experience, thus practicing in the vipassana jhana that is the 11th nana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The dukkha nanas are &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039;. Thy do not have to be set up as a period of personal crap and suffering. Fabricate the path over that stuff, see the dukkha nanas as &amp;#039;knowledges&amp;#039; as opposed to set periods of misery, what &amp;#039;knowledge&amp;#039; do they impart? Sanatha on up to the 4th jhana, switch to paying close attention to the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; i.e. formations of mind and body and let things do themselves. Note the &amp;#039;clouds&amp;#039; if you will. You fabricate your path. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:45:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004750</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-11T23:45:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004620</link> <description>Thanks for asking this question B.B. - I am experiencing exactly the same thing at the moment and was considering asking the same thing. I routinely move through the Shamatha Jhanas to 4 and have probably been in 5th but haven&amp;#039;t tried much to go beyond 4 thought. Apparently 4th Jhana and 11th Nana (on the maps) are the same strata of mind so to the same question - if you can reach and abide in 4th Jhana firstly how related is that to 11 nana and secondly can you progress from within that level? I have tried Vipassana in 4th and not really sure what I am doing either. So hopefully a good answer from someone here will be forthcoming.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks&lt;br /&gt;Rod&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:42:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004620</guid> <dc:creator>Rod C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-11T21:42:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Bypassing DN nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004225</link> <description>If the 4th jhana corresponds to the 11th nana, is it possible to bypass the dukkha nanas by practicing samatha up to the 4th jhana, then &amp;#034;vipassanizing&amp;#034; it, arriving in EQ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If this is not possible, why is this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What got me thinking about this was a passage from &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;ie&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;01&amp;#x2f;talking-in-jhanas&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;, where Nikolai Halay writes:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;a yogi could technically bypass the &amp;#034;rougher&amp;#034; dukkha nanas via developing direct access to the first four &amp;#034;samatha&amp;#034; jhanas and practice discernment in them. Either way, &lt;strong&gt;if a yogi gets to the same strata of mind that is the 11th nana/4th jhana, a path moment is on the agenda.&lt;/strong&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The reason I ask is because my samatha practice really took off a few weeks ago - I can now reliably enter all 8 jhanas. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, any attempts I&amp;#039;ve made at dissolving any coarse blocks of sensation from within these jhanas (even when concentration is especially strong and there&amp;#039;s very little discernible mental movement) have proven disappointing, often with no real increased ability to perceive more subtle sensations at all (I should add that I&amp;#039;ve only ever tried this for a few seconds at most). So I&amp;#039;m unsure whether to continue with samatha as I&amp;#039;ve been doing, down that long, dark tunnel towards Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s definition of jhana (actually I&amp;#039;m getting some faint nimitta now and a gradual loss of hearing, so that&amp;#039;s promising), or to take up vipassana again.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another consideration is that I&amp;#039;m currently doing a very tough computer science degree, so if I really am below the A&amp;amp;P (as was the conclusion reached &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3524213"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;), I&amp;#039;d definitely like to stay that way. I&amp;#039;m finding that hard to believe though, given that any time I&amp;#039;ve stopped for a few moments and entered (very light) jhana in daily life, it always seems to be 3rd or 4th, and my mood always seems to be correspondingly anxious/irritable or calm/equanimous, plus some recent, more intense experiences that seem to roughly match up with descriptions of the A&amp;amp;P and DN symptoms when my concentration has been stronger.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice on where I&amp;#039;m at and what I should do would be great.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit: slight changes to &amp;#034;The reason I ask...&amp;#034;, made &amp;#034;However, any...&amp;#034; a new paragraph &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:26:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4004225</guid> <dc:creator>B B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-11T17:26:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3964078</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;ADR:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;My current experience is that this correlates to the more lower body, physical sensations side. While in this &amp;#034;mode&amp;#034; my practice involved riding the line of some kind of enjoyable sensations in the body. In this way, there was kind of a &amp;#034;this is it,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;I like this,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;yes&amp;#034; kind of mentality almost like a woman having sex (at least that is how I have experienced it from time to time).&lt;br /&gt;What I have noticed and did notice was that whatever line I am riding eventually kind of shows itself to be a dead end.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can relate to this also. Big time. Well, apart from the sex bit.. heh! This &amp;#034;line of experience&amp;#034; is very much like how i go into jhana, or tune jhana on the fly --by focusing on the line (i have referred to this in the past a few times as &amp;#034;strands of experience&amp;#034;) the vibrations speed up, the body feels light and things get &amp;#034;interesting&amp;#034;. But like you, eventually they prove to be dead ends. My current strategy is to develop dispassion for all this &amp;#034;fluff&amp;#034; and focus on the real bodily sensations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope that helps,</description> <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 15:45:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3964078</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-30T15:45:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3959569</link> <description>Hi ADR, sorry for the late reply!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can relate to some of what you say but not all. In particular, shifting focus to where it feels right is very much in line with my experiences. I have dropped focusing on this kind of mid-brain spatial location exclusively as on further examination it seemed to be causing too much &amp;#034;strain&amp;#034;. Now though it seems kind of incorporated into the wider focus, &lt;em&gt;assimilated&lt;/em&gt; into the wider range of body and breath. I can feel it wanting to dominate but it helps to not let it!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:37:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3959569</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-29T19:37:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3950283</link> <description>Just another something to add here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did a little sit and noticed that I was primarily working out of a &amp;#034;left eye&amp;#034; perspective. My current experience is that this correlates to the more lower body, physical sensations side. While in this &amp;#034;mode&amp;#034; my practice involved riding the line of some kind of enjoyable sensations in the body. In this way, there was kind of a &amp;#034;this is it,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;I like this,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;yes&amp;#034; kind of mentality almost like a woman having sex (at least that is how I have experienced it from time to time).&lt;br /&gt;What I have noticed and did notice was that whatever line I am riding eventually kind of shows itself to be a dead end. I want it to go on but it doesn&amp;#039;t. I reached this point in my practice and consciously broke my concentration, shifting my body position slightly.&lt;br /&gt;From this perspective a new position emerged, more of a &amp;#034;right eye,&amp;#034; theoretical, in the head perspective. Rather than clinging to some enjoyable sensation there is a more &amp;#034;I want it,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;where is it&amp;#034; kind of approach. Almost as if whatever is occurring is not what I want, I kind of consciously blank my mind and ride this line. Its more of an attainment like approach. The cue I use to break this concentration is when I notice the thought &amp;#034;ah there is what I want&amp;#034; and yet am not at that point (its kind of like noticing a theoretical space that you want but doesn&amp;#039;t actually exist). In the past I have caused myself some pain and suffering by going for this space even when it was causing me great pain in the present moment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, if my experience in the past few days serves as a guide, the above process will repeat, collapsing down until I cross the A&amp;amp;P in some kind of new light (have yet to cross it with complete clarity of formations, still a bit out of sync). After this point I will kind of just cruise through the some vague dark night stages, my ego saying &amp;#034;oh yeah, I can handle this, I know exactly where I am.&amp;#034; Some kind of low equanimity will arise, pretty chill, and then at some point my ego starts to feel really cramped and freak out. This is where I got my headache a few days ago.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The above process seems to be accelerating somewhat. The ego freak out mode is what has inspired a lot of my frantic posts on here I think. Following this it kind of recovers, finds somewhere new to hide, and the whole process repeats again.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its almost like the garbage from all the fractal junk that I was dealing with a few months ago started coalescing and is trying to complete a circuit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit: Just realized I perhaps should have started a new thread for this. Oh well...</description> <pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:45:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3950283</guid> <dc:creator>Adam Dietrich Ringle</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-27T22:45:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3949270</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Something I stumbled on &lt;em&gt;seems&lt;/em&gt; to be paying dividends of late. But I&amp;#039;m not certain what is happening, (or if it really is paying dividends) so wanted to find out if anyone had similar experience or knew what was going on...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instead of diving right into piti/sukha at the start of meditation I have been focusing &amp;#034;inside my head&amp;#034;. It *seems* like focusing on the mind as object, complete with this spatial element (dead centre of the skull, maybe a bit closer to forehead than back). The concentration is off the scale (for me). Totally nuts. There&amp;#039;s a lot of speeding up of vibrations but also clear progress through the stages of insight. I typically go through the A&amp;amp;P with lots of &amp;#034;free falling&amp;#034;, a little fear, exhilaration etc, then the DN --BUT it&amp;#039;s like a hot knife through butter --although there is a sense of hanging on for dear life in the A&amp;amp;P, the equanimity is rock solid, like being very matter of fact about a roller coaster ride. All the while, anchored in this odd focus. In the DN it&amp;#039;s the same. Crappy sensations come and go, but it&amp;#039;s over with very quickly. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I focus, sometimes piti / sukha arise, get strong, then fade away. But they seem silly things compared with this. I don&amp;#039;t know what &amp;#034;this&amp;#034; really is. I thought it was 4th jhana for a while but that seems unlikely. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In EQ things seem to be heading in the right direction, though after about 2hrs I can start to get a good deal of tension in the head. I will have to experiment with dropping the focus at that stage. Maybe it&amp;#039;s too much at that point?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does anyone have a clue as to what is going on here?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t have a clue, but I thought I might share my practice notes and see if it is anything similar to what you are experiencing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically I have noticed that there is kind of a gap in communication between my upper and lower body, as well as my left and right brain. Sometimes it feels good to keep my focus on the (lower) body (root, abdomen, chest). Other times it feels &amp;#034;right&amp;#034; to stay in more of a witness(?) mode. There could very well be a correlation between these two in regards to hemisphere (left and right respectively), as I have noticed this before. Taking this only as a working hypothesis though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yeah, I will shift my practice focal point back and forth on this x/y scale as pleasantry dictates, following vibrations (it is clear they are not complete or in sync, however...sometimes I can give a guess which nana I am in that moment by what temporal element of the vibration is most clear)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For whatever reason, it is kind of hard for me to see specific nanas and jhanas (really not a fan of this word) at this point on a larger macro scale. I did, however, develop a nasty headache on my left side radiating down into my stomach (nausea) a few nights ago after a couple hours in what seemed like a equaninimous state. Eventually something felt like it kind of slightly dislodged (not completely) and I went to sleep, but I was a bit anxious the next morning wondering if it would return.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does any of this sound familiar?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:27:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3949270</guid> <dc:creator>Adam Dietrich Ringle</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-27T20:27:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3904584</link> <description>A few additional observations for anyone interested...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;During EQ it gets to be &amp;#034;too much&amp;#034; I think, though it could also be just the amount of tie I spend doing it beforehand. It can become unpleasant/tension filled and seed a headache. &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Although the concentration seems quite amazing, it kind of isn&amp;#039;t also. Its easy to wander off in thought even whilst focusing solidly. &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Letting jhana build and &lt;em&gt;then&lt;/em&gt; focusing on this space seems to work very well as it keeps concentration in check. &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;It seems I can &amp;#034;take a break&amp;#034; from it then return quite easily once in jhana but at a certain point it becomes hard not focus on it. Force of habit? Maybe..&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:34:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3904584</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-14T22:34:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3901262</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Sounds like a second gear practice of using the &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; behind the eyes as a watcher to concentrate on and if you stay on that there should be some relief as the self drops away.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes. This does seem to happen Richard. At some point in EQ that focus area seems to widen to the whole body (note that I have the whole body in focus anyways, and this is in addition to) and there is an attenuation of the &amp;#034;centre point&amp;#034; --if that&amp;#039;s what it is. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s an astonishingly good technique that needs more exploration..</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:35:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3901262</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-14T12:35:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3900743</link> <description>Sounds like a second gear practice of using the &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; behind the eyes as a watcher to concentrate on and if you stay on that there should be some relief as the self drops away. I had a couple of great experiences of equanimity doing that. I remember eating a plain sandwich and it just seemed so good.&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2013 04:38:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3900743</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-14T04:38:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Mind as Object, Or..?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3899431</link> <description>Something I stumbled on &lt;em&gt;seems&lt;/em&gt; to be paying dividends of late. But I&amp;#039;m not certain what is happening, (or if it really is paying dividends) so wanted to find out if anyone had similar experience or knew what was going on...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instead of diving right into piti/sukha at the start of meditation I have been focusing &amp;#034;inside my head&amp;#034;. It *seems* like focusing on the mind as object, complete with this spatial element (dead centre of the skull, maybe a bit closer to forehead than back). The concentration is off the scale (for me). Totally nuts. There&amp;#039;s a lot of speeding up of vibrations but also clear progress through the stages of insight. I typically go through the A&amp;amp;P with lots of &amp;#034;free falling&amp;#034;, a little fear, exhilaration etc, then the DN --BUT it&amp;#039;s like a hot knife through butter --although there is a sense of hanging on for dear life in the A&amp;amp;P, the equanimity is rock solid, like being very matter of fact about a roller coaster ride. All the while, anchored in this odd focus. In the DN it&amp;#039;s the same. Crappy sensations come and go, but it&amp;#039;s over with very quickly. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I focus, sometimes piti / sukha arise, get strong, then fade away. But they seem silly things compared with this. I don&amp;#039;t know what &amp;#034;this&amp;#034; really is. I thought it was 4th jhana for a while but that seems unlikely. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In EQ things seem to be heading in the right direction, though after about 2hrs I can start to get a good deal of tension in the head. I will have to experiment with dropping the focus at that stage. Maybe it&amp;#039;s too much at that point?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does anyone have a clue as to what is going on here?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:16:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3899431</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-13T22:16:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>relation between jhanas and nanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3783892</link> <description>Hi All,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am working on the assumption that I got SE a month ago. I&amp;#039;ve started up practicing pretty solidly again (2-3 hrs per day) over the last week once it seemed that the review phase had ended. Now I&amp;#039;m assuming that I&amp;#039;ve begun second path - whereas review phase of first path seemed like a rocket-fueled pass through the path again and again (with a fairly powerful baseline shift in daily perception that has held up so far against a good bit of real world testing), about a week and a half ago things suddenly calmed down, my experience of what I am aware of dramatically opened up and I seem to now have access to the samatha jhanas and have been able to get the first three to consistently arise in textbook fashion (i.e. all of factors are clearly recognizable, inspection of the 3C&amp;#039;s of the dropping factor of a jhana allows for the progression into the next jhana, etc). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Question 1: I&amp;#039;m trying to understand how the jhana&amp;#039;s and nanas work together. I&amp;#039;m aware of the map Ingram lays out in MCTB where the first three nanas correspond to the first samatha jhana, A&amp;amp;P to the second samatha jhana, dark night to the third and EQ to the fourth. However, it seems from my experience that the center of gravity insight-wise is currently in the 3C&amp;#039;s. Yet I think I&amp;#039;m able to work into the 2nd and 3rd samatha jhana? I think I&amp;#039;m not clearly understanding how the nanas and jhana&amp;#039;s fit together...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a hypothesis that I&amp;#039;ve been playing around with, which is that I&amp;#039;ve noticed that the samatha and vipassana characteristics seem to be somewhat orthogonal, so it seems possible that within jhana, the samatha level determines how pleasant, concentrated and effortless one&amp;#039;s experience is while the vipassana level determines what parts/aspects of awareness one&amp;#039;s investigation naturally focuses upon. Thoughts?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Question 2: I&amp;#039;ve been curious about this interesting dropping experience I&amp;#039;ve been able to reproduce on many occasions after SE. Basically I go into a very tranquil and alert state, with a very clear awareness of what feels like the whole of the mind and body (i.e. I feel like i&amp;#039;m able to expand awareness to choicelessly watch all mental/physical sensations). Sometimes it almost seems like the mind and body both disappear and yet I&amp;#039;m still aware. This isn&amp;#039;t a fruition (those (at least what I think are fruitions) always feel like slightly stupefying transitions into 4th vipassana jhana (like a sudden movie scene change)) as there is still some kind of very subtle awareness. I&amp;#039;ve also found that when this experience is particularly intense, the dropping experience is somewhat jarring and I&amp;#039;m launched out of meditation (like the mind and body seem to disappear into the void and then they reappear with the mind and body then automatically exiting meditation and trying to stand up / sit up). I mentioned this in a previous post when Shashank suggested I might be falling asleep - this prompted me to try and replicate this experience and it&amp;#039;s happened enough times in a clear and alert enough setting that I honestly don&amp;#039;t think I&amp;#039;m taking a micro-nap. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this an experience that can be further cultivated? I&amp;#039;m not really sure how to go about cultivating it as it generally appears when I&amp;#039;m able to get into choice-less awareness (I see through the effort exerted in trying to direct the faculty of attention and let phenomenon present themselves rather than try and turn a spotlight upon them), so I&amp;#039;m not sure how one goes about... doing things at this level of meditation. Also, even if this state can be cultivated, is it productive to do so while working towards 2nd path? (I found 1st path was primarily oriented around body and lightly on the mind whereas 2nd path so far seems to be like the mind opening up into high-definition while the body often seems to fade)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;~Super Fox</description> <pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 02:16:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3783892</guid> <dc:creator>super fox</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-12T02:16:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3774765</link> <description>Right. Just one more thing then: In the 3rd jhana in particular I&amp;#039;ve found it sometimes helpful to focus on a pleasurable sensation that comes about with some focus on an area just below the naval. It should feel like surrendering deeply into something. A little unfamiliar and perhaps uncomfortable at first, for me there seems to be a lot of tension there and it can be hard to deeply relax it. It can feel similar to if you were to just drop your bowels right there, but it&amp;#039;s not quite the same fortunately! That pleasure often spreads across the behind and down each leg, like it&amp;#039;s all a big branching nerve. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This odd experience may be related to other leg/naval sensations I&amp;#039;ll talk about when I get another practice thread up. It&amp;#039;s certainly worth exploring though. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The other thing is this: when those harsh vibrations are coming on good and strong, can you relax into them and experience them really really fully? I hope you&amp;#039;ll find that if you do that they will speed up and get finer, losing their DN aspect. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck</description> <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 08:50:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3774765</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-09T08:50:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3773577</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hmmm interesting stuff Eric. I would definitely recommend working with it rather than against it. Could these harsh vibrations be the 3rd vipassana jhana / DN in an unfamiliar form?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had been thinking along those lines, with &amp;#034;unfamiliar&amp;#034; being the key thing. My on the cushion dukha nana crap had always been rather surfacy and not all that hard to get through. With what&amp;#039;s been going on, I don&amp;#039;t always get into the first jhana, not always to the second when I get to the first, seldom to the third when I get to second and never to the fourth, which does point to teh 3rd vipassna jhana. You&amp;#039;re right about my working with it rather than against it. Thanks BTG.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:06:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3773577</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-09T00:06:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3772847</link> <description>Hmmm interesting stuff Eric. I would definitely recommend working with it rather than against it. Could these harsh vibrations be the 3rd vipassana jhana / DN in an unfamiliar form? Recently my DN has been taking one or other of two basic forms: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. My jhana is so strong (due to momentum from starting the sit pre or during A&amp;amp;P that I barely feel it or, &lt;br /&gt;2. The pleasure is uncomfortably strong and very &amp;#034;edgy&amp;#034;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the second instance I have learned to relax into it and let it be whatever it wants to be. It&amp;#039;s hard because that amount of &amp;#034;pleasure&amp;#034; is not pleasurable. It&amp;#039;s a bit scary really, but it&amp;#039;s quite doable. And, it beats the shit out of the vice-like grip of a pounding headache without the jhana &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can&amp;#039;t wait to dive into those Thanissaro talks! Thanks. I just wish I could get Right Mindfulness (and other ebooks) in a regular printed form. He&amp;#039;s got more than enough material there to make a really good print book. I am near blind so have to get the mac to read the PDF to me which sucks. I may have to get a printer to make me a book of it as it really is very good indeed!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers Eric,</description> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 20:30:38 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3772847</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-08T20:30:38Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3772031</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you describe this piti in detail please?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s like the jhana factor piti, but more intense. It&amp;#039;s felt througout the body like a buzzing. It become grating and any pleasant vedana becomes unpleasant vedana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Somtimes it&amp;#039;s palpably more intense in the hands and I get the urge to uncurl my fingers and stick them straight out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sometimes I can get past this by dispersing the attention to the whole body. Last night I was listening to a Than Geoff talk and he recommended trying to see through it to a more subtle energy that you know is underlieing it. I haven&amp;#039;t tried this yet, but will next time it comes up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Other times I feel it move along the skull from the jaw to the 3rd eye area, where it sinks in and fades. When this happens it tends to come in sucessive waves one after the other. This is what I have been calling the &amp;#034;energy surge&amp;#034;. When this has happened, I&amp;#039;ve never gotten past it; either the bell goes off or I get up and turn off the timer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stuff like this used to come up every few weeks, last maybe a day or two then go away. For the past month though, it has been more the rukle than the exception.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yester day I was poking around over at &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org"&gt;dhammatalk.org&lt;/a&gt;, and downloaded theses talks by Than Geoff which I think are apropos to what&amp;#039;s being discussed here in this thread. One of them contains the suggerstion I cited above, but now I don&amp;#039;t remember precisely which one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120612_Tranquility_&amp;#x26;_Insight_in_Tandem&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Tranquility &amp;amp; Insight in Tandem (14:50)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120621_Stilling_Mental_Fabrication&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Stilling Mental Fabrication (14:28)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120725_Feeding_on_the_Breath&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Feeding on the Breath (10:59)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120821_Concentration_through_Samvega&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Concentration through Samvega (11:00)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120901_Right_Resolve&amp;#x2c;_Right_Concentration&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Right Resolve, Right Concentration (12:44)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120906_Breath_Energies&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Breath Energies (14:42)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;120917_Insight_from_Jhana&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Insight from Jhana (20:12)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;121002_Do_Jhana&amp;#x2e;mp3"&gt;Do Jhana (13:52)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These are all from the past few months. I need to go over there are look around more often. Also, thanks for pointing out &amp;#034;Rigth Mindfulness&amp;#034; in your other thread.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 16:05:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3772031</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-08T16:05:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3769547</link> <description>I will indeed beware of that Eric, thanks. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you describe this piti in detail please?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 21:28:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3769547</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T21:28:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3768366</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Currently I am doing just this. But rather than actively scanning/sweeping the body I am simply watching the vibrations across the whole body as it fades in and out of perception. Last night I focused very intently (counter to the gentle investigation suggested above) on the characteristic of impermanence in the fast vibrations. This felt a bit edgy, but possibly the right track nonetheless. I just need to work at doing it with a little less intensity perhaps. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;,&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BTG, I should keep this in mind. For the past couple of weeks most of my sits have degenerated into coarse body-wide piti that I inevitably feel aversion to.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:32:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3768366</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T14:32:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3767577</link> <description>Well that&amp;#039;s a good point Blue. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Currently I am doing just this. But rather than actively scanning/sweeping the body I am simply watching the vibrations across the whole body as it fades in and out of perception. Last night I focused very intently (counter to the gentle investigation suggested above) on the characteristic of impermanence in the fast vibrations. This felt a bit edgy, but possibly the right track nonetheless. I just need to work at doing it with a little less intensity perhaps. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I could not find a searchable reference to this but Analayo in his book &amp;#034;Satipatthana, the Direct Path to Realisation&amp;#034; talks about the analogy of the pile of dust at the crossroads. That a chariot could level the dust by driving though it by any of the 4 directions, but that a more thorough job would be done (in faster time) by 4 chariots from 4 directions. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To this end (and, as it happens per U Ba Khin&amp;#039;s own instructions) I am also including mind states / sensations in this practice when appropriate. Firstly it helps guard the mind against wandering, but it is also an excellent use of excess processing power it would seem. I like to also include sounds arising and passing away as it can be a bit noisy where I am. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t intend to throw the baby out with the bathwater as I move away from the U Ba Khin tradition. I&amp;#039;ve spent nearly 2 years on body sensations and the body as a whole. I&amp;#039;m just changing the technique for working with those frames of reference. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:03:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3767577</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T09:03:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3767027</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Maybe it&amp;#039;s enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You are meant to choose only one of the four bases and focus on that. What is wrong with entering into the 4th Jhana and practicing Goenka&amp;#039;s method? Body sensations are one of the four foundations of mindfulness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-d</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:07:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3767027</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T02:07:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766846</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eran G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did Santikaro have other recommendations?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It was on a page listing all of Buddhadasa&amp;#039;s available books (including the serious beginners one). There is another page there with various recomended readings, none of which struck me as new or different.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:01:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766846</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T00:01:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766656</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eran G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sound advice Eran, thanks. I&amp;#039;ll reread the Buddhadasa book, or at least that particular section. As to sensations though, because of my Goenka training my whole body is just a mass of tingling sensations most of the time, but particularly when i sit. I can do as you suggest for sure, but there are bazillions of sensations with the occasional isolated grosser sensations. Do you have any thoughts on that? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can see two ways to go with that (and obviously there are more): &lt;br /&gt;1. Do what I did at the time, and just start with the breath. Once samadhi is established, turn attention to the breath and notice the arising and passing of each breath. No need to stay too forceful with that. Once noticing the moments of arising and passing is easier you can start to bring in more sensations and expand your attention if that feels right. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. Open awareness, very much like noting. Just notice the arising and passing of whatever sensation is the most prominent at the moment and then move to the next one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Try it both ways and see what feels more natural. If that changes with time, let it change. If you wanna blend the two methods, do that. Trust your intuition. You can always try it some other way if you try something and it doesn&amp;#039;t work.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 22:04:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766656</guid> <dc:creator>Eran G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T22:04:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766523</link> <description>That&amp;#039;s a shame! I&amp;#039;ve only used that book as a reference for specific bits and have never read it completely. There&amp;#039;s Mindfulness of breathing: a manual for serious beginners that is also pretty good, though a little short. http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Breathing-Manual-Serious-Beginners/dp/0861711114/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did Santikaro have other recommendations?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:53:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766523</guid> <dc:creator>Eran G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T21:53:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766367</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eran G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa&amp;#039;s lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eran, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This book always seem chopped off at the end, leaving the last tetrad incomplete. I&amp;#039;d always wondered about this. Following your link to Santikaro&amp;#039;s website, he confirms that it is incomplete. What is there is great stuff though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:56:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3766367</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T20:56:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3765707</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Sami Mandeel:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Bagpuss,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I believe i&amp;#039;m in a similar(ish) position to you, though not quite as far down the line.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve been doing a bit of research and like the sound of these retreat centres:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;Satipanya&amp;#x25;20Budhist&amp;#x25;20Retreat&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;Satipanya&amp;#x25;20Budhist&amp;#x25;20Retreat"&gt;satipanya&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;Dhammacari&amp;#x25;20Vipassana&amp;#x25;20Meditatioszentrum&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;Dhammacari&amp;#x25;20Vipassana&amp;#x25;20Meditatioszentrum"&gt;dhammacari&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve also been quite taken by these guys and the prospect of becoming an apprentice&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;arobuddhism&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://arobuddhism.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this helps!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Sami, thanks! As far as I know though those are both Mahasi centres... I&amp;#039;ll check out the Aro thing though, cheers. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eran G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sound advice Eran, thanks. I&amp;#039;ll reread the Buddhadasa book, or at least that particular section. As to sensations though, because of my Goenka training my whole body is just a mass of tingling sensations most of the time, but particularly when i sit. I can do as you suggest for sure, but there are bazillions of sensations with the occasional isolated grosser sensations. Do you have any thoughts on that? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Fitter Stoke:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Aro is very cool, but I wouldn&amp;#039;t bother looking at other traditions right now. I wouldn&amp;#039;t even worry about a retreat (though if you can do one right now, that&amp;#039;s cool).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would keep doing what you&amp;#039;re doing. If you&amp;#039;ve gotten up to 4th, you&amp;#039;ve mastered something. Go with what you know, and practice it every day as intensively as you can. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Check out &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3539878"&gt;this thread here&lt;/a&gt;. It sounds like Jake was doing something similar to what you&amp;#039;re doing. Daniel gave him advice, and he got path within a month, IIRC. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck, and let us know what happens.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have 15 days booked in March, but I agree (now..) on traditions.. it seems I&amp;#039;m best off doing as you suggest. I&amp;#039;ll keep digging this hole I&amp;#039;ve been digging for some time now &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 17:45:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3765707</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T17:45:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763500</link> <description>Aro is very cool, but I wouldn&amp;#039;t bother looking at other traditions right now. I wouldn&amp;#039;t even worry about a retreat (though if you can do one right now, that&amp;#039;s cool).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would keep doing what you&amp;#039;re doing. If you&amp;#039;ve gotten up to 4th, you&amp;#039;ve mastered something. Go with what you know, and practice it every day as intensively as you can. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Check out &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3539878"&gt;this thread here&lt;/a&gt;. It sounds like Jake was doing something similar to what you&amp;#039;re doing. Daniel gave him advice, and he got path within a month, IIRC. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck, and let us know what happens.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 01:36:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763500</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T01:36:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763417</link> <description>In that case, I recommend pretty much what Fitter said above. Get into whatever level of samadhi you have available and start investigating. You can use the form of investigation that Ajahn Buddhadasa describes in his books; having a certain structure to you investigation may keep you from drifting off. You can use the abridged version of the investigation which basically focuses on the 4th part of the Anapanasati sutta. For me that took the form of looking very clearly for the arising and passing of sensations. I did not find it necessary to label sensations (although, again, that may help keep you on track) and I did not find it necessary to notice every single sensation that arises (at least not initially, things speed up at times and slow down at other times). Willingness to experiment and find what works for you is essential. You have a lot of support available here and a sharp mind. What more can you ask for? &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:59:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763417</guid> <dc:creator>Eran G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-06T00:59:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763175</link> <description>Hi Bagpuss,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I believe i&amp;#039;m in a similar(ish) position to you, though not quite as far down the line.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve been doing a bit of research and like the sound of these retreat centres:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;Satipanya&amp;#x25;20Budhist&amp;#x25;20Retreat&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;Satipanya&amp;#x25;20Budhist&amp;#x25;20Retreat"&gt;satipanya&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;Dhammacari&amp;#x25;20Vipassana&amp;#x25;20Meditatioszentrum&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;Dhammacari&amp;#x25;20Vipassana&amp;#x25;20Meditatioszentrum"&gt;dhammacari&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve also been quite taken by these guys and the prospect of becoming an apprentice&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;arobuddhism&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://arobuddhism.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this helps!</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:16:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3763175</guid> <dc:creator>Professional Idiot</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T23:16:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762660</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Ian And:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;What is this &amp;#034;TWIM folks&amp;#034; that you refer to?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That would be Bhante Vimalaramsi and Sister Khema at &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammasukha&amp;#x2e;org"&gt;Dhamma Sukkha&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:33:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762660</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T19:33:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762646</link> <description>What is this &amp;#034;TWIM folks&amp;#034; that you refer to?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:24:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762646</guid> <dc:creator>Ian And</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T19:24:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762596</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eran G:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa&amp;#039;s lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey Eran, good to see you! I have that book, it&amp;#039;s fantastic! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I should have mentioned. I can&amp;#039;t feasibly travel to the US or much further than say France/Germany as I&amp;#039;m in the UK...</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:51:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762596</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T18:51:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762592</link> <description>That&amp;#039;s very encouraging Fitter, thanks! That drifting off thing is somehting I&amp;#039;ve heard people mention before. I think Daniel mentions it in MCTB. It&amp;#039;s often hard not to drift off a bit in 4th.. I have taken to trying to include as much as possible in my awareness at this stage. Mostly this helps.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:49:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762592</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T18:49:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762581</link> <description>Try this book on Anapanasati by Ajahn Buddhadasa - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you find this interesting, you may want to contact or sit a retreat with Santikaro - http://liberationpark.org/ he was an abbot in Buddhadasa&amp;#039;s lineage and translated at least one of his books. He now teaches in the US and leads retreats several times a year. I sat a 9 day retreat with Santikaro a couple of years ago and found it very helpful.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:45:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762581</guid> <dc:creator>Eran G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T18:45:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762502</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi everyone, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I might get you to help me come up with some structure to my practice. I am finally doing what i&amp;#039;ve been talking about doing for ages and stopping the U Ba Khin practice for good. There are lots of reasons for this, but I won&amp;#039;t bore your pants off with them &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Jhana&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My goal is to attain stream entry of course. And I want to take the Jhana route to this goal. I&amp;#039;m very much of the school of thought that the Buddha taught jhana, right concentration as a necessary component required for awakening and I would like to practice in that way. The problem is, I don&amp;#039;t have a teacher, or set of specific teachings to follow (though I have collected much information in general on the subject). I realise I could trawl through the Majjhima Nikaya but that really isn&amp;#039;t feasible. I would have no time left to practice &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not want to follow the TWIM folks. I just can&amp;#039;t figure out how they have arrived at such an interpretation of MN118, nice folks though they truly are. And I&amp;#039;m not certain if following MCTB (aggressively looking into the 3C&amp;#039;s) will really fit with such practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe it&amp;#039;s enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One thing is for sure. I don&amp;#039;t want to just &amp;#034;hope&amp;#034; im doing it right. If there were some school of budhism or teacher (maybe Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though Im not sure if he talks much about actual stream entry), where I could get some &lt;strong&gt;direction&lt;/strong&gt; that&amp;#039;s be really good. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just looking for some suggestions... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thanks!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edited for clumsier than usual wordage..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re already hitting 4th jhana, you don&amp;#039;t really have any problem. Just hang out there and do some gentle investigation until the moment happens. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You might try some self-inquiry up there. I got path right after bringing that into my practice up in the 11th ñana/4th jhana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s interesting. I just went through my meditation journal, because I wanted to show you exactly what I was doing when I got path. I thought I was doing self-inquiry up in 4th jhana, but it looks like I was just noting. Here it is:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Immediately felt detached as soon as I started. I’d notice a sensation, and my thought was immediately behind it to note it. It was like watching one bird fly past and then another bird chase it. Throbbing, burning, and tingling began to predominate, and I followed these sensations around the body with ease. I still felt detached, but I wasn’t bothered by it for long, and pretty soon I was just enjoying the ability to chase my sensations around. I was enjoy the cool breeze and the light of the sun and just enjoying being alive.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As soon as I sat, though, I was half-asleep. There were lots of mental images, as though I were half-dreaming. Noting was still there, but it was taking a lot of work. Annoyance started creeping in as I felt my equilibrium go off as I’d start falling asleep. Anger started up, and I had to keep widening the circle of acceptance to encompass not only the wobbliness and dream images but also the irritation and anger at having to endure this. I really wanted to give up, because I was feeling lousy, but I just kept noting and reminding myself that I go through this every time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This probably went on for about 20 or 30 minutes. And then pretty much out of nowhere - while my mind was trailing off listening to some people outside - there was a POP. It’s like someone hit me with jumper cables. There was a shock to the middle of my chest, and flash in the center of my vision, and my entire visual field was bright behind me eyes. I sat bolt-upright and was suddenly very awake and noting like a champ again. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, the principle is pretty much the same. Don&amp;#039;t push on it too hard. I&amp;#039;m tempted to say &amp;#034;look into this and that&amp;#034;, but really, I think it will happen on its own.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 17:34:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762502</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T17:34:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Moving Forward, Practice Options?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762456</link> <description>Hi everyone, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I might get you to help me come up with some structure to my practice. I am finally doing what i&amp;#039;ve been talking about doing for ages and stopping the U Ba Khin practice for good. There are lots of reasons for this, but I won&amp;#039;t bore your pants off with them &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Jhana&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My goal is to attain stream entry of course. And I want to take the Jhana route to this goal. I&amp;#039;m very much of the school of thought that the Buddha taught jhana, right concentration as a necessary component required for awakening and I would like to practice in that way. The problem is, I don&amp;#039;t have a teacher, or set of specific teachings to follow (though I have collected much information in general on the subject). I realise I could trawl through the Majjhima Nikaya but that really isn&amp;#039;t feasible. I would have no time left to practice &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not want to follow the TWIM folks. I just can&amp;#039;t figure out how they have arrived at such an interpretation of MN118, nice folks though they truly are. And I&amp;#039;m not certain if following MCTB (aggressively looking into the 3C&amp;#039;s) will really fit with such practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe it&amp;#039;s enough to use the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati sutta to try and really cover all 4 bases of mindfulness when in the 4th jhana? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One thing is for sure. I don&amp;#039;t want to just &amp;#034;hope&amp;#034; im doing it right. If there were some school of budhism or teacher (maybe Thanissaro Bhikkhu, though Im not sure if he talks much about actual stream entry), where I could get some &lt;strong&gt;direction&lt;/strong&gt; that&amp;#039;s be really good. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just looking for some suggestions... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thanks!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edited for clumsier than usual wordage..</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:51:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3762456</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-05T16:51:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Alan Wallace Samatha: concentration or insight?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3677160</link> <description>It&amp;#039;s an old thread I know, but I was searching for info on the same book the OP mentioned and a specific item jumped out at me. Mario wrote, in the context of candle-based kasina practice:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mario Nistri:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;...I would stare back at the flame and then, when I would close my eyes, no dot would appear in the center, but only black, and some forms around the black center...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And Daniel replied:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The blackness with subtle stuff around it is the 3rd jhana aspect.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But couldn&amp;#039;t it just be retinal fatigue? Or is retinal fatigue itself a component of 3rd jhana?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 23:04:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3677160</guid> <dc:creator>Robert McLune</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-11-08T23:04:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3626650</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3626322"&gt;Access Concentration Jhana High Equanimity &amp;amp; Vipassana Jhana&lt;/a&gt; I moved this thread there.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2012 03:57:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3626650</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-19T03:57:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Samatha with Vipassana</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3579535</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been meditating regularly since April. I slip into samatha pretty readily now -- when I&amp;#039;m driving, reading, in conversation. Sometimes it&amp;#039;s just by pure accident ... I&amp;#039;m in it &amp;amp; then I have to decide if it&amp;#039;s opportune to stay that way. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;[ed. A friend of mine (an experienced meditator) says this sounds to be samadhi. I make no claims this way or that, but as I read more it appears to be consistent with what&amp;#039;s in the literature ... Marge says I&amp;#039;m soaking in it ....]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, I&amp;#039;ve noticed lately that increasingly I get what in signal processing might be called &amp;#034;artifacts&amp;#034; -- a characteristic delay in sensory experience, usually visual (driving), but I&amp;#039;ve noted sensory recognition impedance. I&amp;#039;ve been referring to this as attenuation -- attention that attenuates extrinsic sensuality. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s tricky to catch just-seeing or just-hearing but I also felt a slight disidentification moment pass quickly this morn, first time fully sensed (visual) ... so it sounds about right. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But ... I haven&amp;#039;t read up much on the exact details &amp;amp; I&amp;#039;m really &lt;strike&gt;reluctant to&lt;/strike&gt; concerned I&amp;#039;ll start intellectualizing about this process. It&amp;#039;s happening &amp;amp; I don&amp;#039;t wanna get hung up on it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So ... is this what the hybrid method is? To me the two feel contiguous. The float-in-the-flesh-bag concentration experience seems to invite the attenuated-sensory insight. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m exploring what other ways to cue just-sensing experiences via samatha. I&amp;#039;ve also tried this w/ other intrinsic organic senses -- cravings, pangs. The entire field of sensual phenom. looks game to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lee&lt;div class="lfr-code"&gt;&lt;table&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class="line-numbers"&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;1&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class="lines"&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 04:35:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3579535</guid> <dc:creator>lee rogers</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-07T04:35:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3568616</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;M F SanSevero:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Ian,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On another forum, you posted a thread titled &amp;#034;Essential books for those of the Theravadin persuasion&amp;#034;. Would you care to repost it here? I would appreciate it, as well as some hint as to in which order to read this list. Thanks so much.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s been here all the time. &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;1296955"&gt;Essential Books from Theravadin Resources&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as reading order goes, that&amp;#039;s dependent upon the individual and where they are at in terms of their study of the Dhamma. If you are just starting out, Walpola Rahula&amp;#039;s book &lt;em&gt;What The Buddha Taught &lt;/em&gt;will provide an excellent grounding in the Dhamma that Gotama taught along with Bhikkhu Bodhi&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Noble Eightfold Path, Way to the End of Suffering&lt;/em&gt; if you haven&amp;#039;t already read it. But in general, read whatever aspect you&amp;#039;re studying about that interests you most. But start out with any of the Pali translations of the canon the Digha, Majjhima, Anguttara, and Samyutta Nikayas. Probably the Majjima would be a good one to start with; then the Digha. Save the longer last two main Nikayas for afterwards. Try to go for reading one sutta a day (or part of a sutta if it is a long one). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One book that is an absolute &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;must read&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; at some point in a person&amp;#039;s study is Bhikkhu Nanananda&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought&lt;/em&gt;. This is one better read and understood AFTER you&amp;#039;ve spent some time (several months typically) contemplating the mind and how it works, so that you have some direct experience to work with in order to understand what he is talking about. That is to say, it&amp;#039;s not something I would recommend to a beginner. But definitely do read it at some point. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another great book for practice is Ven. Analayo&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization&lt;/em&gt;. This along with Nyanaponika Thera&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Heart of Buddhist Meditation&lt;/em&gt; will give you a good grounding in the practice of &lt;em&gt;satipatthana&lt;/em&gt;, an indispensable practice for understanding mind and how it works.&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 00:11:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3568616</guid> <dc:creator>Ian And</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-03T00:11:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3567651</link> <description>Ian,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On another forum, you posted a thread titled &amp;#034;Essential books for those of the Theravadin persuasion&amp;#034;. Would you care to repost it here? I would appreciate it, as well as some hint as to in which order to read this list. Thanks so much.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 17:15:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3567651</guid> <dc:creator>August Leo</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-02T17:15:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3554584</link> <description>Ah, Neem, I forgot to add:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The essay is really interesting and worth a read as it appears Bikkhu Bodhi knows his sutta.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Yes indeed. One can find his lectures on line as well as his classes on Pali, the suttas and commentaries. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Okay, best wishes, good luck with your work and bye for now.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:16:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3554584</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-26T21:16:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3554573</link> <description>Hi Neem - &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I see you&amp;#039;re amending and locating citations for attributed statements. Awesome. To me that is a valuable practice to model and uphold. Knowledge survives with high fidelity over hundreds of years across territorial and social changes due to maintaining correct citations and correct memory of the information.&lt;span style="color: #FFFFFF"&gt; (I&amp;#039;m still getting through some of this, so I don&amp;#039;t know what&amp;#039;s cited and what&amp;#039;s outstanding and I haven&amp;#039;t even gotten to some conclusions that are posited in the thread!)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I am still reading through your compilation here and the links, but have to shift to prepare for a retreat coming up. You&amp;#039;ve got quite a brainstorm going. If I can contribute usefully to this thread, it will probably be in early-mid November. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes,&lt;br /&gt;Katy</description> <pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:45:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3554573</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-26T20:45:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3549147</link> <description>Lovely, Katy. Also interested finding some stuff from the Visuddhimagga on definitions of access concentration. The essay is really interesting and worth a read as it appears Bikkhu Bodhi knows his sutta.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Learning about Vipassana Jhana is of high significance, there are no scriptural references for Vipassana Jhana in Sayadaw U Pandita book &amp;#039;In This Very Life&amp;#039;, to my knowledge. What are its scriptural references and does the term really match actual jhana, so far i have only found one reference to Vipassana Jhana from Mahasi and I&amp;#039;m yet to read this and find out what his reference for the idea is?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These following quotes, that I am in the process of compiling, may after editing, help form some basis for my continued discussion on Access Concentration in the field of Jhana &amp;amp; Vipassana Jhana and the associated Hard and Soft Jhanas of Vipassana Jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;search&amp;#x3f;hl&amp;#x3d;en&amp;#x26;as_q&amp;#x3d;mahasi&amp;#x2b;&amp;#x2b;&amp;#x26;as_epq&amp;#x3d;vipassana&amp;#x2b;jhanas&amp;#x26;as_oq&amp;#x3d;sayadaw&amp;#x26;as_eq&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_nlo&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_nhi&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;lr&amp;#x3d;lang_en&amp;#x26;cr&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_qdr&amp;#x3d;all&amp;#x26;as_sitesearch&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_occt&amp;#x3d;any&amp;#x26;safe&amp;#x3d;images&amp;#x26;tbs&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_filetype&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x26;as_rights&amp;#x3d;"&gt;&amp;#039;In This Very Life&amp;#039;&lt;/a&gt; U Pandita&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Access to the First Vipassanā Jhāna Requires Insight into Mind and Matter&lt;br /&gt;It is not sufficient to have all five factors present for one to say one has attained the first vipassanā jhāna. The mind must also come to penetrate into the Dhamma a little bit, enough to see the interrelationship of mind and matter. At this time we say that access to the first vipassanā jhāna has occurred.&lt;br /&gt;A yogi whose mind is composed of these five jhānic factors will experience a new accuracy of mindfulness, a new level of success in sticking with the object. Intense rapture, happiness and comfort in the body may also arise. This could be the occasion for him or her to gloat over the wondrousness of the meditation practice. “Oh wow, I’m getting really precise and accurate. I even feel like I’m floating in the air!” You might recognize this reflection as a moment of attachment.&amp;#034; pg.273&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;When awareness is clear, especially when the passing away of things is noticeable, one can appreciate intuitively the characteristics of impermanence, of suffering, or of absence of self that are inherent in all phenomena. The intuitive understanding of all three of these characteristics is included in a particular stage of insight, sammasana-ñāṇa, meaning the insight that arises out of verification. Often this term is translated as “verified knowledge by comprehension.” One comprehends or verifies the three characteristics through a personal experience of seeing the disappearance of phenomena.&amp;#034;pg 295-96&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;At this point in the practice, there begins to be a strong presence of all five factors of the first jhāna, discussed above. Aiming and impinging, vitakka and vicāra, have strengthened. Concentration, rapture and comfort join them. The first vipassanā jhāna is said to be complete, and vipassanā ñāṇa or vipassanā insight knowledge can begin to arise.&amp;#034; pg. 288&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The Second Vipassanā Jhāna&lt;br /&gt;He or she leaves behind the childhood of reflective thinking and enters the maturity of simple, bare attention.&lt;br /&gt;Now the meditator’s mind becomes lucid and sharp. He or she is able to follow the very fast rate at which phenomena appear and disappear from moment to moment. Because of the continuity and sharpness of mindfulness, there is little discursive thinking. Nor is there doubt about the impermanent, momentary nature of mind and matter. At this time, the practice ￼seems effortless. In the absence of effortful application and reflective thought, there is space for joy and rapture. This nonthinking bare attention is called the second vipassanā jhāna.&lt;br /&gt;In the first vipassanā jhāna, then, the mind is congested with effort and discursive thinking. It is only when the second vipassanā jhāna arises at the beginning of insight into the arising and passing away of phenomena that clarity, rapture, faith and great comfort begin to predominate.&amp;#034; 301-302pg.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The Arising of the Third Vipassanā Jhāna&lt;br /&gt;￼Rapture will gradually fade, but mindfulness and concentration will continue to deepen. Then insight into the true nature of what is happening will become very strong. At this point, the enlightenment factor of upekkhā, equanimity, becomes predominant. The mind remains unshaken by pleasant objects as well as unpleasant ones, and a deep sense of comfort arises in the body and mind. Yogis can sit for long hours without pain, and their bodies become pure, light and robust. This is the third vipassanā jhāna, whose two jhānic factors are comfort and one-pointedness of mind. The third jhāna arises at a more mature stage of the insight into arising and passing away.&lt;br /&gt;The transition from the second jhāna to the third is a critical turning point in practice. Human beings have a natural attachment to thrills and excitement which agitate the mind. Rapture is one of these agitating pleasures; it creates ripples in the mind. It is rather adolescent, though. So when you experience it, be certain to increase your vigilance and note as meticulously as you can. As long as a yogi remains attached to rapture, he or she will not move forward into the more mature, subtle happiness that comes with peace and comfort.&amp;#034; pg.303-4&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The scriptures illustrate the transition with the story of a mother ￼cow who is suckling her calf. It is important to wean the calf early, so that the cow’s milk can be used by human beings. If the calf is not weaned, it will constantly drink up all the cow’s milk. This calf is like the second jhāna which feeds and thrives on pīti or rapture. The mother cow might be the third jhāna, and the person who is able to drink the sweet, fresh milk is like a yogi who has successfully gone beyond his or her attachment to rapture.&lt;br /&gt;The happiness or comfort that can be tasted in this third vipassanā jhāna is said in the scriptures to be the peak or climax of happiness that can be experienced in vipassanā practice. It is the sweetest. Nevertheless, the yogi can dwell in it with equanimity and without attachment.&lt;br /&gt;To continue noting precisely remains crucial, lest the comforts of mind and body, the sharpness and clarity of insight, give rise to subtle attachment. If you feel that your insight is fantastic, sharp and and clear, you should note this. However, attachment is less likely to arise, since a comprehensive, panoramic mindfulness is present which notes each object easily and without slipping.&amp;#034; pg.304-5&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Dissolution of Phenomena: The Comfort Disappears&lt;br /&gt;￼The third jhāna is called the climax of happiness because there is no more happiness in the next jhāna. As you note phenomena, you will gradually pass beyond the stage of insight into arising and passing away, into the stage of dissolution of phenomena. At this point the beginnings and the middles of objects are no longer clear. Instead the mind perceives continuous dissolution of phenomena, which disappear as soon as they are noted. Often it seems as if there is no body at all, only bare phenomena dissolving away continuously.&amp;#034; pg.305-6&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The Appearance of the Fourth Vipassanā Jhāna&lt;br /&gt;During the maturation of insight into the arising and passing away of phenomena, the rapture of the second jhāna gave way to the third jhāna factor of comfort. The outrageous pleasure of rapture was replaced by milder and subtler feelings of comfort and peace. As comfort disappears in the dissolution stage of insight, it still does not incur mental displeasure. Now the third jhāna gives way to the fourth, whose characteristic jhāna factors are equanimity and one-pointedness of mind.&amp;#034; pg.307&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Summary of the Four Vipassanā Jhānas&lt;br /&gt;In the first jhāna, balance is quite undeveloped. Predominant instead are vitakka and vicāra, aiming and rubbing or initial application and sustained application. As discussed above, the vitakka and vicāra of the first jhāna often include large amounts of discursive thinking.&lt;br /&gt;In the second jhāna, the thrills and chills of rapture overshadow equanimity. Come the third jhāna, there is the sweetest happiness and comfort, so that balance has no chance to show itself. When comfort evaporates, however, bringing about that feeling which is neither pleasant nor unpleasant, then balance has a chance to shine. In just this way, when dusk sets in and darkness begins to thicken, the moon reigns splendidly over all￼ ￼the sky.&lt;br /&gt;After the insight into dissolution come successive insights into fear, disgust, and wanting to be liberated. Equanimity is not strongly shown until the stage of insight known as “equanimity regarding all formations.”&lt;br /&gt;This is a deep level of practice where things begin to move very smoothly. Mindfulness is so agile now that it picks up the objects before the mind can begin to be perturbed by pleasantness or unpleasantness. There is no chance for attachment or aversion to arise. Objects which normally are very unpleasant, lose their influence completely, as do thrilling and exciting objects. Because this is true at all six sense doors, the kind of equanimity now present is known as “six-limbed equanimity.”&amp;#034; pg.308-9&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Each of the four vipassanā jhānas is characterized by a distinct type of happiness. In the first vipassanā jhāna, one can experience the happiness of seclusion. The hindrances are kept away, and so the mind is remote and secluded from them.&lt;br /&gt;In the second jhāna, one experiences the happiness of concentration. Good concentration brings happiness in the form of rapture and comfort. As rapture is abandoned, the happiness ￼in the third jhāna is simply known as the happiness of equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;Finally in the fourth jhāna, we experience the purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;The fourth type is the best happiness, of course. Like the first three, however, it still occurs in the realm of conditioned phenomena. Only if the yogi transcends this realm can he or she experience the ultimate happiness, the happiness of real peace. This called santisukha in Pāli. It occurs when the objects of meditation and all other mental and physical phenomena, as well as the noting mind itself, come to a complete stop.&amp;#034;pg.310-11&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like this synthesis of the Vipassana Jhanas, though his definition of a hard jhana and moving from the nana into the jhana makes total sense from my experience in relationship to his definitions of those terms. His definition of hard jhana or any jhana is totally with out relationship to the Visuddhimagga or Mahasi, but does conform to U Panditas view and description of jhana, As far as I know.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;viet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;anson&amp;#x2f;ebud&amp;#x2f;ebmed020&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Access and Fixed Concentration&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;What is the general idea behind the word jhana ? Jhana usually means strong concentration fixed on the object. Here we quote an excerpt from a book written by Mahasi Sayadaw, The Wheel of Dhamma:&amp;#034;Jhana means closely observing an object with fixed attention. Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such as breathing for tranquillity concentration, gives rise to samatha jhana, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality brings about vipassana jhana. There are two types of jhanas : samatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Fixed attention that develops into tranquillity is called samatha jhana. Contemplating on the three characteristics constitutes vipassana jhana. There are also three kinds of samadhi (concentration): momentary, access and absorption concentration.&amp;#034;&amp;#034; (Access and Fixed Concentration, Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;We have to understand that upacara samadhi is very wide. There is a wide level of upacara, access concentration. It covers many experiences. And it differs with different objects. Generally, we can say a person reaches upacara samadhi when the five hindrances are inhibited. That means the concentration goes up to the level where greed, anger, sloth and torpor, worry and restlessness, and doubts do not arise. When the concentration has reached up to the level where the five hindrances are pushed aside (although they may come back after one comes out from the meditation) one can be said to have attained initial access concentration. Because the function of putting away the defilements or hindrances is satisfied, you can, if you want, go into the practice of vipassana and observe with a sharp and calm mind.&amp;#034; (Access and Fixed Concentration, Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;From the description I&amp;#039;ve given on the absorptions you definitely cannot know it while you are in the jhana. While you are in these absorptions it is like you are in deep sleep, you are in a state deeper than deep sleep so how can you know while in it? You know it only before you go in, because before you enter it will be clear which factors are stronger and which are weaker and have to disappear, or after emerging, through making of proper resolutions to reflect on the factors present.&amp;#034; (Access and Fixed Concentration, Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The vipassana jhanas as taught by U Pandita contrast with the samatha jhanas as described by Buddhaghosa in his work the Visuddhimagga. (Source: Wikipedia: Vipassana jhanas) just something off a random web page from a google search.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;vipassanaforum&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;forum&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;topic&amp;#x3d;1275&amp;#x2e;5&amp;#x3b;wap2"&gt;Stream Entry on a 10 day Goenka Course?&lt;/a&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;There are many ideas on what jhana is and isn&amp;#039;t. In my own experience, one can experience two types. Samatha jhana is more what you seem to be talking about (trance-like states), which have the mind deeply absorbed, embedded and unmoving. From the Visuddhimagga, we have this type of jhana. According to Buddhaghosa and perhaps your Thervadin teacher on your last retreat, the yogi must come out of it to start practicing insight. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then we have those that say that insight can and should be practiced within the jhana itself. Some like U Pandita, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw, call this type of jhana a &amp;#034;Vipassana jhana&amp;#034;. And some, like myself, see the first 4 material jhanas as corresponding to certain nanas. Nanas are to do with insight and not to do with getting embedded within an non-investigative trance-like state. Not all the nanas correspond to a jhana as they are not stable strata of mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The nanas (knowledges/stages of insight) that are stable correspond to a material jhana. If a yogi is investigating within this type of nana they are technically in the &amp;#034;Vipassana jhana&amp;#034;. If they wish, rather than investigate the phenomena of the nana with insight practice, they can ride the vibrations/sensations and general pleasantness and get absorbed in it. They then end up in the samatha version of the jhana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The 1st nana of Mind and Body corresponds to the 1st jhana. The 2nd and 3rd nanas do not correspond to a jhana as they are unstable strata of mind (lots of aches and pains ie. dukkha can arise thus they are unstable). The 4th nana of Arising and Passing corresponds to the 2nd jhana as it can be quite a blissful nana and easy to stabilize. The 5th nana of Dissolution can also be a pleasant experience and corresponds to the 3rd jhana. The next 5 nanas are the dukkha nanas and are often not so pleasant thus they are quite unstable and have no corresponding jhana. The 11th nana of Equanimity of Formations corresponds nicely with the 4th jhana. Directly after the 11th nana are the nanas (and cessation of nama and rupa) that result in Stream Entry, thus they do not have a corresponding jhana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Each of the nanas that corresponds with a jhana has a similar set up as the jhana; the mental focus and vibrational experience. If one gets embedded in the pleasant phenomena, riding and soaking the mind in the pleasantness, they can become absorbed into the samatha version. One can get really really abosrbed in a &amp;#034;hard&amp;#034; version of the jhana. If one investigates the reality within it via seeing the three characteristics and remaining dis-embedded and dis-identified with the phenomena of it, then they are in the &amp;#034;Vipassana Jhana&amp;#034; or nana version. This latter type of jhana, in my opinion, leads to the cessation of the mind and body i.e. nibbana. The great thing about having access to the samatha jhanas up to the 4th is one can quickly rise up to the 4th jhana then turn around and start practicing discernment and insight practice within it. Hang out long enough in the 4th jhana and eventually a cessation/path moment will result. But if you don&amp;#039;t have access to samatha jhana you can practice Vipassana through the nanas (whether being aware of them or not) and end up in the 11th nana where the mind is quite naturally equanimous with all the phenomena arising and passing away, any formation of mind and matter including the patterns of phenomena that are misread as &amp;#034;self&amp;#034;. Hang out here long enough, and a cessation/path moment will result. And if you have mastered hanging out in the 11th nana, you can trun around, stop investigating and &amp;#034;ride&amp;#034; the pleasant phenomena into deep, deep , hard samatha jhana.&amp;#034; Forum &amp;gt; Meditation, Practice And The Path, author: nibs&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Access (or &amp;#034;neighbourhood&amp;#034;) concentration (upacara-samadhi) is that degree of mental concentration that approaches, but not yet attains, the full concentration (appana-samadhi) of the first absorption (jhana). It still belongs to the sensuous plane (kamavacara) of consciousness, while the jhanas belong to the fine-material plane (rupavacara). (Mahasi, Progress of Insight, 25)&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2012 23:47:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3549147</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-23T23:47:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3545259</link> <description>Hi Neem,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I found this article you mention,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;P.S. tell me where you think you might look so we don&amp;#039;t cover the same ground.&lt;br /&gt;P.S. Looks like I&amp;#039;ve found the text by Bikkhu Bodhi, &amp;#039;The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I will read this and re-read the related parts of your post, probably by Sunday/Monday. How&amp;#039;s that?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:08:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3545259</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-21T18:08:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3529154</link> <description>I spent a few hours, looking online for a book that deals with the themes of Samatha Yanika &amp;amp; Vipassana Yanika By Bhikkhu Bodhi. I saw a quote in a thread that remind me of the book, which referenced &amp;#039;A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma&amp;#039; by Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is available as a free pdf. I&amp;#039;m beginning to wonder if the original book which I picked it up in a Monastery in Malaysia, was an abridged or compiled work of &amp;#039;A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma&amp;#039; or other essays by Bikkhu Bodhi. So I&amp;#039;m starting to read that now.&lt;br /&gt;After I&amp;#039;ll read the Visuddhimagga. Id like to find a quote about Access Concentration being in the ball park of 4hrs from the Theravada. If you have a copy of &amp;#039;Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond&amp;#039;, there may be a reference to that, mines in Melbourne. I&amp;#039;ve talked to Ajahn Kalyano about that book, an Australian Resident from the Thai Tradition and we have discussed that Jhana is 8 to 12 hours, or just meditating through the night in the case of advance practitioners or as the Thai Masters describe in their biographies. The problem is they don&amp;#039;t like to talk to specifically about these things. &lt;br /&gt;So &amp;#039;Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond&amp;#039;, is one of the best likelihood&amp;#039;s for a quote from a current practice lineage. The Visuddhimagga is my best hope, or maybe the Vimuttimagga, for a scripturally referenced time frame for Access Concentration. &lt;br /&gt;The 24 hr Jhana quote from the Visuddhimagga from &amp;#039;The Attention Revolution&amp;#039; covers traditional definitions of Jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I may be able to find reference else where about the commonality of Samadhi &amp;amp; Jhana in the Sutta&amp;#039;s and the Minimum reference to Dry-Insight. There is a book by a student of Mahasi Sayadaw that Mahasi advise the author on, it that covers the debate between the Samatha Yanika&amp;#039;s and the Vipassana Yanika&amp;#039;s, in the day. Gotta look through that maybe. But I have read over other references to this dilemma within the Sutta&amp;#039;s about representation of the Dry-Insight.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lastly Samadhi is just concentration, where as Jhana is a special state that results from concentration. Jhana has a range of factors i.e. Sukha, Píti, Vitakka, Vicara, Ekagatta &amp;amp; Upekkha. Basically you get really absorbed in bliss of body &amp;amp; mind, in the first 4. Using the above maps Samadhi implies anywhere from stage 4, in the Tibetan &amp;amp; Thai Theravada Map, which is associated with Mindfulness, i.e. maintaining continuity of object above or below thought. Right through to being in Jhana, as you must be in Samadhi to be in Jhana, but basically it is just concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Kind Regards Neem. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;P.S. tell me where you think you might look so we don&amp;#039;t cover the same ground.&lt;br /&gt;P.S. Looks like I&amp;#039;ve found the text by Bikkhu Bodhi, &amp;#039;The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas&amp;#039;. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:32:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3529154</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-16T09:32:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3528717</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ll have to look on line for that book by Bikkhu Bodhi&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Which Bhikku Bodhi book? I can look into this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am interested in this thread. To clarify, by samadhi, do you mean the stable bright mind or the jhanas?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;____________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; I&amp;#039;m out in a caravan in the country in N.S.W..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; ah. happy trails.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 03:17:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3528717</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-16T03:17:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3527994</link> <description>Yeah totally Katy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I got that book at my sisters in her garage in Melbourne, I&amp;#039;m out in a caravan in the country in N.S.W.. There is a lot of work to do to turn it into a proper academic essay. Also, still need to refine the notes from Alan Wallace,s book too. I&amp;#039;ll have to look on line for that book by Bikkhu Bodhi, and I need to read the Vissudhi Magga. So when I say its almost finished, in truth, that is merely the body of the argument based on my former readings &amp;amp; practice. It could be a few weeks at best before some of those things are filled out. I&amp;#039;ll start with Bikkhu Bodhi and then refine the note from Allan Wallace&amp;#039;s book to more clearly represent his views.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for encouraging me to finish it properly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Neem.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:25:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3527994</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-15T23:25:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: High Equanimity and Access Concentration are the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3526719</link> <description>Hi Neem,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for starting on this thread.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I would like to state that this essay is near completion but still needs some more work.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would you please add footnotes when you attribute statements to teachers, for example:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Bikkhu Bodhi state that there are only a few ambiguous references in the Sutta&amp;#039;s of anyone attaining full Arhatship as a Dry-Insighter, compared to thousands of references to Jhana based attainments? At minimum Dry-Insight requires Access Concentration as described by Bikkhu Bodhi in his Sutta References.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is extremely important to the integrity of the information you are providing and its integrity builds proper conviction, or at least, faith in people to keep trying.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, on the bottom of page 237 In Venerable Analyo&amp;#039;s book &amp;#034;Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta: the Direct Path to Realization&amp;#034; footnote 21 has abundant sutta references to samadhinimitta, nimitta, cittanimitta, the penetration in nimitta (nittam pativijjhitabbam), and so forth. This book is rich in footnotes and is clear when the author speaks for himself. This I find to be very helpful for developing a home practice and the will to proceed with practice even when practice may be sluggish or &amp;#034;stuck&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;___________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I should note here that concentration is considered to be built upon relaxation; the foundations, stability;the wall &amp;amp; vividness the roof.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;fundamental in my experience &lt;em&gt;(though please consider being very clear about when you are citing texts and when you are speaking personally, since this thread involves sutta, teachers and your own thoughts. Please consider keeping these clearly delineated without ambiguity)&lt;/em&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:37:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3526719</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-15T11:37:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>High Equanimity and Access Concentration are at the same level of Samadhi!</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3525636</link> <description>High Equanimity and Access Concentration are at the same level of Concentration! Access Concentration needs to be defined from the more commonly accepted definition used by the Concentration Tradition (i.e. Samatha Yanikas). This is because Access Concentration be it Fixed or Momentary, is the comparative springboard for the attainment of Insight in the Sutta&amp;#039;s and in both Buddhist Traditions (i.e. Samatha &amp;amp; Vipassana Yanika). It is the Dry-Insights definition of Access Concentration that is wrong and sourced in associated terms like Vipassana Jhana which are either out of context with the terminologies of the Sutta&amp;#039;s and misleading or even wrong in their context of use.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By correctly defining the achievement of the later stages of Equanimity Regarding Formation/i.e. High Equanimity and its associated level Access Concentration. It becomes clear what the achievement and difficulty level of the two states are. Therefore confusion is eradicated when diagnosing the last two sub-nanas and also the achievement of Access Concentration is put in perspective with its associated difficulty.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the Suttas, it is often in post Jhanic states of high concentration that one attains Path, as is pointed out by Bikkhu Bodhi in &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;hkims&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;documents&amp;#x2f;bodhi-jhanas&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;The Jhanas &amp;amp; the Lay Disciple: According to the Pali Suttas&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, we read, he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the &amp;#034;five hindrances.&amp;#034; When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhānas, described by a stock formula repeated countless times in the Nikāyas:&amp;#034;(The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas, 1) &lt;br /&gt;Though this may be the common case, it is not alway the case in Suttas dealing with individuals. Many of the Samatha Yanika schools have used the larger majority of case of individuals attaining Jhana prior to Path in Suttas as well as &amp;#039;Significant Suttas&amp;#039; which are actually descriptions of gradual training, to say Jhana must be attained before Stream-entry. These Suttas dealing with gradual training are actually generalised teaching for the attainment of Path. Bikkhu Bodhi later clarifies this point saying all the stages of awakening are telescoped into one series, basically he is saying these are not specific cases. &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;In the suttas dealing with the gradual training, all the stages of awakening are telescoped into one series, and thus no differentiation is made between the preparatory attainments required for stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship. We simply see the monk go off into solitude, attain the four jhānas, and then proceed directly to arahantship, called &amp;#034;the knowledge of the destruction of the taints.&amp;#034;&amp;#034;(The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas, 1&amp;amp;2) &lt;br /&gt;Bikkhu Bodhi, find support for the attainment of Dry-Insight Practioners, but interestingly enough isn&amp;#039;t convinced that one can attain Arahantship with out Jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;bare insight (suddha-vipassanā)... Apparently,...finds support from the Visuddhimagga and the Pāli Commentaries, though it is not given a very prominent place in the commentarial treatment of the path, which usually follows the canonical model in placing the jhānas before the development of insight.[2]...It is possible that the Jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the path. I believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner. &lt;br /&gt;Several teachers of meditation are insisting that Jhānas are needed to attain even stream-entry. The Nikāyas themselves do not address this problem in clear and unambiguous terms, and it is difficult to derive from them any direct pronouncement on its resolution.&amp;#034; (The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas, 1&amp;amp;2) &lt;br /&gt;So we see here, that: (deciding)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Additionally I would like to state that in the process of acquiring Fixed Concentration, the meditator is not fixed until the final attainment and therefore is dependent on investigation or aspects of insight to balance laxity &amp;amp; excitation. So the difference between fixed practice and momentary concentration is not so clearly delineated in practice.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Buddhaghosa drew this distinction between mindfulness and introspection: &amp;#034;Mindfulness has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding. Introspection has the characteristic of non-confusion. Its function is to investigate. It is manifest as scrutiny.&amp;#034;45 &amp;#034;(The Attention Revolution, 79)&lt;br /&gt;In this passage, B Allan Wallace defines introspection and its investigative functions, this is mentioned because it is required to be mindful of laxity and excitation to develop Shamatha and it is the investigative function of introspection which is one of the similes of Wisdom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With Vipassana Jhana the idea conveyed, is that a meditator is attaining full Jhana at the comparative Vipassana Jhana or Insight Stage. Where I believe they are merely accessing an earlier state of concentration with associated effects &amp;amp; factors that precedes &amp;amp; imitates real Jhana. I would promote the idea of a Micro &amp;amp; Macro Jhana which is parallel to Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s idea of the Micro &amp;amp; Macro Stages of Insight. The micro-fractal of the first four stages of insight mirror the greater macro-fractal of the later Stages of Insight i.e. Dark-night and Equanimity, This is why there is often such confusion determining the stage of development of practitioners. Early and later Stages of Insight mirror each other this is also the case with the states of Micro &amp;amp; Macro Jhana. I sate that in both cases they are not the same, it is not the full attainment of Jhana nor is it the final Stages of Insight. Daniel Ingram talks about the sub-nana Late-Mastery being a Mini-Dark-Night within the sub-nanas of Equanimity, which like the spiral of musical tone vibrating upward some have flats/sharps and some do not.&lt;br /&gt;Daniel Ingram also talks about Soft and Hard Jhana and I question the notion that a Soft jhana is the same as a Hard jhana and would prefer if it was seen as a micro of its macro.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A Soft &amp;amp; Hard Jhana Map or a Samatha Yanika Map of what Access Concentration is, determines the relatively ease of attainment. Within a Traditional Jhana Map that describes Access Concentration, such as from B. Alan Wallace&amp;#039;s book &amp;#039;The Attention Revolution&amp;#039; which is in the Tibetan Shamata Tradition, Access concentration is described in terms of being able to sit for at least 4hrs.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;You are now able to maintain flawless samadhi, effortlessly and continuously for at least four hours.&amp;#034;(The Attention Revolution,143)&lt;br /&gt;Wallace, describes later in his book that though 4hrs is the minimum for Access Concentration it can extend up to 7hrs. &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;At the end of a one-year shamatha retreat lead by Gen Lamrimpa in 1988, one meditator sat four sessions each day, each one lasting three hours. Another sat for just two sessions, each more than seven hours long. Neither one, according to Gen Lamrimpa, had achieved shamatha at that point, but both had made very good progress. When they arose from their meditations after so many hours, it felt to them as if no time had passed at all, and their bodies and minds were filled with blissful and relaxed sensations&amp;#034;(The Attention Revolution, 163)&lt;br /&gt;In this Tibetan Map (refer to the map below), the practitioner sitting 7 hrs is at the 9th stage and is still in Access Concentration and the other is likely at the 7th or 8th stage. So we see here that Traditional Samantha Models of Access Concentration describe it as a high level attainment around 4hrs. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some people in discussion have tried to define Access Concentration as a very low level state comparative to a General Mindfulness as described by the Concentration Traditions, i.e. being able to maintain attention without forgetfulness of the object. When using the 10 stage model of Tibetan Shamata described by B. Alan Wallace, this General Mindfulness is the 4th stage in the Jhana Map, and it is the 9th stage that is considered to be Access Concentration. When using Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s Thai Theravada Map for Jhana, the 4th stage is General Mindfulness and the 6th Access Concentration. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have chosen to prioritise the Tibetan Jhana Map as it breaks up the later stages of the development of Samatha with more clearly defined stages and I have therefore found it more relevant to my practice. The two Maps are totally parallel, and Wallace compares the Tibetan Map with references to Pali Texts, showing that it conforms to Theravada and Mahayana Buddhist understandings of the development of Jhana. Also I don&amp;#039;t have my copy of Mindfulness Bliss &amp;amp; Beyond, but, though it doesn&amp;#039;t specify the time for Access Concentration it does talk about early and later stage of the development which also places Access Concentration in a similar ball park, will try to add that in later. And will be looking for something from the Visuddhimagga, which, by the way, places full accomplishment of fixation at 24hrs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are arguments around the Suttas and the Commentaries, for the paths being attained without Jhana. This essay by Bikkhu Bodhi is my main base for such opinions, &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;Books10&amp;#x2f;Bhikkhu_Bodhi_The&amp;#x25;20Jhanas_and_the_Lay_Disciple&amp;#x25;20&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple: According to the Pāli Suttas (alternate link)&lt;/a&gt;, Bikkhu Bodhi states, &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;bare insight (suddha-vipassanā)... Apparently,...finds support from the Visuddhimagga and the Pāli Commentaries, though it is not given a very prominent place in the commentarial treatment of the path, which usually follows the canonical model in placing the jhānas before the development of insight.[2]...It is possible that the Jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the path. I believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner. &lt;br /&gt;Several teachers of meditation are insisting that Jhānas are needed to attain even stream-entry. The Nikāyas themselves do not address this problem in clear and unambiguous terms, and it is difficult to derive from them any direct pronouncement on its resolution. In the suttas dealing with the gradual training, all the stages of awakening are telescoped into one series, and thus no differentiation is made between the preparatory attainments required for stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship. We simply see the monk go off into solitude, attain the four jhānas, and then proceed directly to arahantship, called &amp;#034;the knowledge of the destruction of the taints.&amp;#034; From such texts, there can be no denying the role of the jhānas in bringing the path to fulfilment, but here I shall be concerned principally with the question whether or not they are categorically necessary to win the first fruit of the path.&amp;#034; (The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas, 1&amp;amp;2)&lt;br /&gt;Also indubitably of significance, are the living cultural traditions supporting attainment through Dry-Insight, i.e. the Mahasi Tradition. In the Mahasi Tradition, In the later stage of Equanimity Regarding Formations i.e. High Equanimity is seen as a 4 to 5 hr achievement, after the intensity of the fast flowing vibrations associated with the descriptions of Late Mastery i.e. at the ¾ development stage of Equanimity Regarding Formations has pasted. If one is experiencing enough of the qualities or factors associated with H. Eq. but is still only sitting for 2 and a half hours, you&amp;#039;re not there yet. This is what teachers Sayadaw Dr. Sununda and Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. have both directly told me. Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. is the fellow that helped Daniel Ingram attain Arhatship, he stated in his book, and Dr. Sununda was recommended to my by U Pandita Jr. and he learned directly in the presence of Mahasi himself. I have done a 1 month retreat with Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. and 5 weeks along with 6 weeks and 5 wks back to back, they informed me of this point to help realise that I had not yet attained High Equanimity during different stages of hubris in my practice. So this is a very significant point.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please keep in mind, when I am saying High Equanimity I am using Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s description of Mahasi&amp;#039;s Model that elucidates the sub-nanas which are very briefly described in, &amp;#039;Practical Insight Meditation&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;Progress of Insight&amp;#039;, or both. In &lt;a href=""&gt;Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s Sub-ñana Table&lt;/a&gt;, the Nana stage of Equanimity Regarding Formations is divided into 4 categories or Sub-Nanas. And it is in the 4th Sub-Nana of High Equanimity, that concentration is high enough to achieve a pliancy of body, to a level of being able to sit for at least 4 hrs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have recently finally found a reference in a Mahasi book where Vipassana Jhana is mentioned, something I&amp;#039;ve previously failed to notice in his books. As the definitions of Vipassana Jhana bear relevance to definitions of Access Concentration, I am interested in Mahasi&amp;#039;s source for the term. Generally Mahasi, provides references to Sutta&amp;#039;s for relevant terms in which he gives detailed definition of the Pali. In &amp;#039;Progress of Insight&amp;#039;, Access Concentration and Vipassana Jhana are not even mentioned!&lt;br /&gt;In my readings of Mahasi and Sayadaw U Pandita, the definition of Access Concentration isn&amp;#039;t so definitive. The possible problem for them may be, that the Visuddhimagga defines Access Concentration as that used by the Samatha Yanika path (I will be adding quotes after I have read it, but I&amp;#039;ve definitely read about this). &lt;br /&gt;This maybe the reason that Sayadaw U Pandita in his book, &amp;#039;In This Very Life&amp;#039;, avoids the topic of Access Concentration and avoids quotes and references on anything about Vipassana Jhana, even though he writes a whole chapter on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is link to a Face Book site, were someone describes Access Concentration, debating the correct definition of Access Concentration with me. This description of Access Concentration is indicative of what some people use to describe Access Concentration within the Dry-Insight or Mahasi Tradition. &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;facebook&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;permalink&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;story_fbid&amp;#x3d;340683262691971&amp;#x26;id&amp;#x3d;129350517109215"&gt;General Mindfulness&lt;/a&gt; is the term, I would use for this definition of Access Concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;What U Pandita and Ingram mean by Access Concentration is completely different from what Brahm and Wallace do. In the dry-insight tradition, access concentration means only being able to consistently pay attention to an object. This means, the minimum mental stability required to observe the three characteristics. &lt;br /&gt;As you rise through the insight stages, reaching equanimity concerning formations, you may (if on intense retreat) be able to sit for such a long time. Wallace and Brahm, on the other hand, want you to work on really deep levels of concentration and stability before paying attention to the three characteristics and attaining the insight stages. And that means being able to sit for such a long time regardless of the insight stage you&amp;#039;re at.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;it is one thing saying that really high on the insight path you&amp;#039;ll be able to sit for a long time, with many jhanic qualities; it is another saying that you have to sit for a really long time for attaining access concentration. They are not the same: 1) in the dry-insight tradition, access concentration is kept to a bare minimum and is used straight away to lead you through the insight stages. (Once you get to high equanimity you will have many jhanic qualities to your experience and teachers tend to push students for a really high level of effort at this stage (as a lot of people get stuck here)). 2) That is compleatly different from what Wallace is saying. He wants you to work on really hard jhanic states, which he names access concentrarion, even before any insight stage. That means sitting for four hours before mind and body, cause and effect, and so on. &lt;br /&gt;Your identification of their individual and separate claims is not accurate, as they are not referring to the same thing.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, it may be acceptable to conceive of High Equanimity as a four hours sit as I have described my teachers have told me. But Access Concentration is just general mindfulness. The relationship between fixed and momentary concentration are clearly delineated as delineated. And the notion that Fixed Access Concentration could change to Momentary Concentration and on into High Equanimity might be to hard grasp for someone with the above ideas. Even though loving kindness is often used as a Sweetener in the practice, in the early stages it is rarely developed to a useful level of concentration nor is pure concentration seen as a viable and complementary and inter-changable route. Or if it is, its without comprehension of what concentration is and how it runs parallel and in tandem with insight inter-changably. &lt;br /&gt;Lastly, Mahasi says outright, that access concentration is a developed stages that has suppressed the hinderances. This quote is elucidated below.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;purification of mind... momentary duration,..corresponds to... access concentration… means… is not overwhelmed by the mental hindrances.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is the passage on concentration, from Mahasi Sayadaw&amp;#039;s book &amp;#039;Progress of Insight,&amp;#039; which covers the development of the practice in terms of concentration, from start to fruition. Mahasi uses very dense language and in his writing can pass from one sub-nana to another sometimes with a short sentence or a few, or even do the same with full nanas on occasions. &lt;br /&gt;In these passages he moves quickly, from the development of general mindfulness described here, &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;During the early part of the methodical practice, as long as the meditator&amp;#039;s mind is not yet fully purified, wandering thoughts arisen by his thinking of objects of sense desire, etc., will also appear intermittently between thoughts of noticing (the objects of meditation). Sometimes the beginning meditator will perceive occurrence (of these interruptions) and sometimes he will not. But even if he perceives them, it will be only after a short time has elapsed after their appearance. For then the momentary concentration of his mind is still very tender and weak. So these wandering thoughts continue to hinder his mind while it is occupied in developing the practice of noticing. Hence, these wandering thoughts are called &amp;#034;hindering thoughts.&amp;#034;&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;as learning to keep the thoughts in check and with the object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He continues on, to describe the attainment of General Mindfuless, i.e. not forgetting the object by my definition.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;When, however, the momentary concentration of his mind has become strong, the thought process of noticing becomes well concentrated. Hence, when attending to the objects to be noticed -- the abdominal ￼movement, sitting, touching, bending, stretching, seeing, hearing, etc. -- his noticing thoughts now appear as if falling upon these objects, as if striking at them, as if confronting them again and again. Then, as a rule, his mind will no longer go elsewhere. Only occasionally, and in a slight degree, will this happen, and even in those cases he will be able to notice any such stray thought at its very arising, as expressed in common speech; or, to be exact, he will notice the stray thought immediately after its actual arising. Then that stray thought will subside as soon as it is noticed and will not arise again. Immediately afterwards he will also be able to resume continuous noticing of any object as it becomes evident to him. That is why his mind at that time is called &amp;#034;unhindered.&amp;#034;&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;This wondering of the mind or straying of thought is not at the level where one totally forgets the object. One will remember to note the rising and the falling of the breath, as thoughts below the attention move to predominance and as thoughts sink beneath the attention of the primary object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For those that may be thinking, Buddhist dogma states that only one object can be perceived at a time. I say to take this to literally in the context of experience, doesn&amp;#039;t reflect how we actually perceive the flow of phenomena. There are 600,000 or 6,000,000 thought moments in a second, Buddhist dogma also states. Science sees visual perception in terms of frames, humans can render changes &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;psychedelic-information-theory&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;Limits-of-Human-Perception"&gt;in visual reality&lt;/a&gt;, at roughly 13-15 frames per second (fps, or Hz), which means that our perception of reality fully refreshes itself roughly once every 77 milliseconds (ms). Additionally there&amp;#039;s the question of what is one object. Which mind, you no traditional teacher I have asked, has ever really had the courage to approach answering, it seems to fall into the unanswerables the questions that Buddha didn&amp;#039;t respond to, that is my attempt at explaining how teachers avoid this question. A finger is one object, a hand is one object, a body is one object, a mountain is one object if one has enough perspective, even the world. This answers clarifies how a musician hears all the layers of rhythm and melody in a band or even and orchestra. Composites of things can be perceived as one object and remembered that way, like a friends face. Also everything can be divided almost endlessly, if not endlessly, to some extent this is what devices like electron microscopes have proven. Sorry to diverge so much. My main point is, we do perceive thoughts as quieter or louder, while we maintain our attention on the rising and falling. Maybe our attention is blinking between things, but its so fast that it can easily appear as simultaneous and one of those things may be a tree or a large ache through the leg or a sharp tingle or a fruitfly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This section of the passage, Purification of the Mind from &amp;#039;Progress of Insight&amp;#039;, Talks about the Attainment of Access Concentration, using the method of Momentary Concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;While the meditator is thus practising the exercise of noticing with unhindered mind, the noticing mind will close in upon and fix on whatever object is being noticed, and the act of noticing will proceed without break. At that time there arises in him in uninterrupted succession &amp;#034;the concentration of mind lasting for a moment,&amp;#034; directed to each object noticed. This is called &amp;#034;purification of mind&amp;#034;.[18]&lt;br /&gt; Though that concentration has only momentary duration, its power of resistance to being overwhelmed by opposition corresponds to that of access concentration.&lt;br /&gt; In the Commentary to the &amp;#039;Visuddhimagga&amp;#039;, in the explanation of the chapter relating to mindfulness of breathing, it is said thus: &amp;#034;&amp;#039;Momentary unification of mind&amp;#039; means the concentration of mind lasting only for a moment. For that (type of concentration), too, when it occurs uninterruptedly with its respective object in a single mode and is not overcome by opposition, fixes the mind immovably, as if in absorption.&amp;#034; ...&lt;br /&gt; &amp;#034;Is not overcome by opposition&amp;#034;: this means that the momentary concentration in its uninterrupted flow is not overwhelmed by the mental hindrances.&amp;#034;[20]&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Of relevance in this passage, is that the hinderances are removed. As a practitioner matures in their practice they become more acute at noticing, absence of attention and the very subtle qualities of aversion and clinging that are still present, despite the refinement of their state. To attain real Access Concentration the hinderances must be completely suppressed, in the above passage Mahasi states, &amp;#034;momentary concentration in its uninterrupted flow is not overwhelmed by the mental hindrances&amp;#034; and that this corresponds to Access Concentration. Of relevance also is that this is in the final stages of the development of Momentary Concentration. So near the end of the development of Momentary Concentration you attain to a level of concentration that corresponds to access concentration and access concentration has always been defined as suppression of the hinderances. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If your blissing out in a Jhanic factor of space and you body has ceased to be present and there are no problems what soever, the likelihood that all hinderance are removed is in direct relationship to your attachment to that state, &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;For ... absorption, ... it does not mean that when you have these five factors you have the first jhana. Even if you don&amp;#039;t have any concentration these five mental factors are already there. When you think of food, when you miss very much your food, or your &amp;#039;Penang Laksa&amp;#039; there are also these five factors present , because the mind keeps running to the Laksa, it stays on it thinking &amp;#039;how nice if I have Laksa&amp;#039;, and then after that when you think of the Laksa you have joy &amp;#039;when I had Laksa it was so nice, I was enjoying myself&amp;#039; and you feel very happy also and the mind is actually as if you could taste the Laksa, then these five factors are there but it is more like wrong concentration, greed.&amp;#034;(Access and Fixed Concentration, Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara)&lt;br /&gt;Funny. Many people in these so called soft Jhanas if they developed some insight, even from a fixed position, might begin to notice that their attachment to the state was interfering with the development of concentration, this is basic wisdom in Ajahn Brahms book on Jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lastly this passages of quotes from Mahasi jumps from General Mindfulness in the earlier quotes to Access Concentration in the above Mahasi quote. The distance that traverses in terms of real practice for Pure Concentration Practitioner i.e. Samatha-Yanika Practitioner, could be measured in terms of a year retreat or even two years! The Tibetan Map breaks down the development of concentration in more detail that the Thai map. So in relationship to that my centre of gravity for concentration is around stages 5 &amp;amp; 6, I peak at 7 and may have, with my few best experiences achieved stage 8 on a few occasions. This bears direct relationship to being stuck at Late Mastery, because I lack the required level of concentration be it fixed or momentary!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Finally in this paragraph Mahasi, talks about the competition of the practice of momentary concentration to the achievement Jhana &amp;amp; Stream-Entry. Which if you didn&amp;#039;t know, are actually at the same level, Stream-Entry is always accessed via a Jhana.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;As if in absorption&amp;#034;: this means that the strength of the momentary concentration is similar to that of concentration which has reached full mental absorption. However, such similarity of momentary concentration with fully absorbed concentration will become evident (only) when the methodical practice of insight reaches its culmination.[21]&amp;#034; (Mahasi Progress of Insight 6-7)&lt;br /&gt;So Momentary Concentration has become Full Absorption and the practice of Insight reaches its culmination! Yay.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Following up here is a quote from &amp;#039;Access to Insight&amp;#039; &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;...in a dry-insight meditator who lacks jhana, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but does not use it as a basis for insight, and the path arisen by comprehending formations after emerging from the first jhana, are all paths of the first jhana only... Buddhaghosa,.. there is the recognition that the insight immediately preceding the supramundane path determines the jhanic character of the path. For this insight is the proximate and the principal cause for the arising of the path, so whether it be the insight leading to emergence near the basic jhana or that occurring through the contemplated jhana or that fixed by the meditator&amp;#039;s wish, it is in all cases this final phase of insight that gives definition to the supramundane path. Since the fruition that occurs immediately after the path has an identical constitution to the path, its own supramundane jhana is determined by the path. Thus a first jhana path produces a first jhana fruit, and so forth for the remaining jhanas.&amp;#034; (The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation, Henepola Gunaratana)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;gunaratana&amp;#x2f;wheel351&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;ch5&amp;#x2e;4"&gt; The Jhanic levels of a Fruition &lt;/a&gt; are introduced in this quote. So I state, that from Access Concentration in High Equanimity Regarding Formations one makes the leap to the insight stage of Jhana &amp;amp; Fruition simultaneously, the only debatable point here is the bit about Access Concentration and its definitions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Those above quotes, from &amp;#039;Progress of Insight&amp;#039;, conform to the definitions of Access Concentration, that I am advocating within this essay. I would argue that they even support it.&lt;br /&gt;Lastly if any one has any quotes from books by Mahasi Sayadaw or Sayadaw U Pandita at clearly and directly define Access Concentration in contrast to what I am arguing for here please, contribute to the thread! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also of relevance, I read through the relevant chapters in Sayadaw U Pandita&amp;#039;s, In This Very Life and found no significant mention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;budsas&amp;#x2f;ebud&amp;#x2f;ebmed020&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Access &amp;amp; Fixed Concentration&lt;br /&gt;Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Got to read this are it may be one of the primary sources for definitions of Vipassana Jhana and therefore by implication Jhana &amp;amp; Access Concentration within the Mahasi Tradition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here we quote an excerpt from a book written by Mahasi Sayadaw, The Wheel of Dhamma:&amp;#034;Jhana means closely observing an object with fixed attention. Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such as breathing for tranquillity concentration, gives rise to samatha jhana, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality brings about vipassana jhana. There are two types of jhanas : samatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Fixed attention that develops into tranquillity is called samatha jhana. Contemplating on the three characteristics constitutes vipassana jhana. There are also three kinds of samadhi (concentration): momentary, access and absorption concentration.&amp;#034;&amp;#034; (Access and Fixed Concentration, Venerable Sujivo, Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara) Before I found this quote i suspected that U Pandita had made up the notion of Vipassana Jhana, i still think he has greatly stretched its definition in &amp;#039;In This Very Life&amp;#039; because Mahasi seems to be only seeing the attainment of real access concentration as a later stage of development, where has he is even trying to imply it is present in the dukha nana&amp;#039;s, what a load of nonsense! it may be present at the A&amp;amp;P but does it have to be! Any way just adding this passage in will develop it later.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;“There is only one instance in the Visuddhimagga” (Bhadantácariya Buddhaghosa), “where he openly advances an opinion of his own, with the words “our preference here is this” (XIII.123). He does so once in the Majjhima Nikáya Commentary, too, saying “the point is not dealt with by the Ancients, but this is my opinion” (M-a I 28). The rarity of such instances and the caution expressed in them imply that he himself was disinclined to speculate and felt the need to point the fact out when he did. He actually says “one’s own opinion is the weakest authority of all and should only be accepted if it accords with the Suttas” (D-a 567&amp;#x2013;68). So it is likely that he regarded what we should call original thinking as the province of the Buddha,” (Vissuddhimagga, translated by Nanamoli, 38-39)&lt;br /&gt;I have added in this quote because it, bares relevance to Mahasi notion of Vipassana Jhana and were information is sourced from. I would ask the reader to consider this point when they used the contemporary insights definition of Jhana, something it seem Mahasi may have himself never used, because in my reading of him he shared a simiplar oppinion to that of Buddhagosha, as that is the primary source for the notion of Vipassana (still reading the Visuddhimagga &amp;amp; The Wheel of Time).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Continuing on with the main body of my argument, I offer my notes from the two best books on Concentration I have found so far. I will endeavour to quote directly from B Alan Wallaces book as I have a copy with me. That is the next bit of work I will do on this essay. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; Ajahn Brahm has quite a few things on Jhana on the net, I will do my best to revise those notes with quote to, but nearly all of those notes are paraphrased anyway. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Below, I have summarised the Thai Map, which is a &amp;#039;Traditional Samatha Yanika Theravada Map&amp;#039; from Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s book, &amp;#039;Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond&amp;#039;. This Map has also been validated to me personally by the only Monk able to ordain in the Thai Forest Tradition in Australia (since Ajahn Bram was disqualified from the Thai Tradition for breaking with it after disregarding the period of novice-ship for nuns when fully ordaining the) Ajahn Kalyano who concurs with the map in Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s book. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have spent the last 2 ten week retreats exploring Jana along with Insight. I believe you can&amp;#039;t attain stream-entry without access concentration. After all this time studying and practicing, I&amp;#039;ve only just put it into perspective in the last 6 months, that is, what the achievement of Access Concentration really is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mahasi teachers Sayadaw Dr. Sununda and Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. have both directly told me while on retreat with them, that when one is at the peak of Equanimity Regarding Formations one achieves a pliancy of body that allows one to sit for at least 4 hrs i.e. with great ease of body; they were specifically talking about the final stages or the sub-nana High Equanimity. This physical pliancy of being able to sit for 4hrs is the same equivalent standard of pliancy for Access Concentration within the Samatha Tradition. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Practitioners believing they are opening out into High Equanimity or the final stages of Equanimity Regarding Formations may having referenced Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s Nana Map and believe they have attained High Equanimity (Here are his descriptions of H.Eq.: panoramic, near perfect, airable, peaceful, ordinary, boredom, forgetfulness, balance, deep wisdom seems very natural and ordinary attachment to mastery vanishes, effort to attain or do vanishes, it all happens by itself.). &lt;br /&gt;After the intensity of the fast flowing vibrations associated with the description of Late Mastery have pasted, and if one is experiencing enough of the qualities associated with H. Eq. as stated in the description above, but is still only sitting for two and a half hours, your not there yet. &lt;br /&gt;This is what teachers Sayadaw Dr. Sununda and Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. have both directly told me. Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. is the fellow that helped Daniel Ingram attain Arhatship, he has stated in his book. &lt;br /&gt;Even though the experiences stated above, may fit those descriptions of High Equanimity, I sate that what is occurring is the rising and falling or the micro-cycling of the nana stage of Late Mastery, as it refines within its self toward H. Eq.. At this point one is at the doorway or precipice like state, that sits between Late Mastery &amp;amp; High Equanimity or alternately, sits at Late Mastery&amp;#039;s peak after the fast flowing vibration stage is finished. &lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s here you experience an openness that mimics the factors of High Equanimity, but it&amp;#039;s not there yet. It&amp;#039;s this state that you cycle up and down from and refine before you attain the real High Equanimity, which requires more concentration! Or more Mindfulness and more Khanika Samadhi i.e. concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can&amp;#039;t attain Stream-Entry without Access Concentration, a book by Bikku Bodhi that referenced the Sutta&amp;#039;s as well the Visuddhimagga stated. Though Bikkhu Bodhi came from a Samatha Tradition he found references in the Sutta&amp;#039;s and the Commentaries that support the notion of attaining Stream-Entry from Access Concentration and therefore from Dry-Insight.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Visuddhimagga i.e. The Path of Purification, which retains the original description of The 16 Stages of the Path, describes Access Concentration in a Shamata Yanika way! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Visuddhimagga references Jhana as being a 24 hr attainment when fully mastered.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Once you have achieved the actual state of the first stabilisation, samadhi an be sustained, according to Buddhaghosa,&amp;#034;for a whole night and a whole day, just as a healthy man, after rising from his seat, could stand for a whole day&amp;#034; (The Path of Purification, 120)&amp;#034;. (The Attention Revolution, 159).&lt;br /&gt;Jhana may be accessed in a shorter period of 8 to 12 hrs and one can chose to shorten Jhana to the time one desires as one gains control of it, also there is the possibility one may attain full Jhana for a shorter period. But it you&amp;#039;ve attained to Jhana you should be able to do at least an 8 hr sit on another or many occasion, to confirm your attainment of jhana and then begin to move up to 12 hr minimum sits or even 24 hr sits to confirm and fully consolidate the attainment.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;Dry-Insight is an ambiguous thing in the Sutta&amp;#039;s and Bikkhu Bodhi thinks there are only clear precedents for the the attainment of of the lower 3 Paths in the Sutta&amp;#039;s and quotes different Sutta&amp;#039;s to show that. I&amp;#039;m not putting all my eggs in the Sutta Basket either. But often after attainment it is easier to attain high levels of concentration Daniel Ingram, states, and else where he also made reference for the need for strong levels of concentration to attain stream-entry. &lt;br /&gt;So in respect to those themes how many Arhats attained without any Jhana, Bikkhu Bodhi state that there are only a few ambiguous references in the Sutta&amp;#039;s of anyone attaining full Arhatship as a Dry-Insighter, compared to thousands of references to Jhana based attainments? At minimum Dry-Insight requires Access Concentration as described by Bikkhu Bodhi in his Sutta References.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Sutta&amp;#039;s when referencing Attainment, often refer to period of concentrated where insight is present, sometime this concentration is clearly post Jhanic states of concentration, other times concentration is just stated as being present. So these people are in high states of concentration, very close to Jhana or in post Jhana states i.e. A.C. where they are able to contemplate clearly. Coming from the Suttric position of someone like Bikkhu Bodhi he talks about people attaining Path from Access Concentration, before and after jhana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All the Sutta&amp;#039;s make reference and prioritise the need for concentration to attain but an interesting point is that they don&amp;#039;t actually distinguish between Jhana and Access Concentration, Wallace stated.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The distinction between access and the actual states of meditative stabilization is not made in the discourses of the Buddha as recorded in the Pali language, but first appears in the commentaries.&amp;#034; (The Attention Revolution, 165)&lt;br /&gt;So therefore it is from A.C. that we are attaining, as described by the Samatha Yanika Tradition. As this is comparative to H. Eq. because good concentration is required for the pliancy of body associated with a 4 hr sit and for attainment within Equanimity Regarding Formations. Also because Jhana is traditionally describe as being devoid of thought and therefore investigation, as total fixation is in place, the ability to investigating changing phenomena must be post Jhana, i.e. A.C. is seen as the platform for investigation in the Samatha Yanika Tradition. Basically I am going back and forward in cross referencing argument.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For Access Concentration to be the bases of the attainment of path it needs to be investigative, it has to change from a fixed object when in jhana to a changing object or one cannot realize anything. This is the state of Samadhi that is described as the basis of attainment in the Sutta&amp;#039;s. Access Concentration is not that different from Kanika Samadhi, and investigating in Access Concentration is likely at the same level as High Equanimity, if the investigation is good, actually I believe they are the same. During the development of Shamata over the Ten Tibetan Stages, it is really only in the last 3 stages that one really starts to develop some fixation on an object. And it would be more correct to say that its only in the last stage i.e. Jhana that full fixation is actually achieved. Before then there is a reliance on qualities of investigation to develop the practice. So Shamata cannot be developed without functions of wisdom being developed, this is another reason they are the same.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The level of concentration at High Equanimity using Kanika Samadhi to the level of Access Concentration is 4 or 5 hrs. But one can easily slip into spacious states of Samadhi that I have experienced that are like 5th Jhana: (some would call that a soft 5th Jhana) no body awareness, next to no thought, high lvls of peace, bliss and ease of body sitting for 1 &amp;amp; a half to 2 &amp;amp; a half hrs. This is still not enough concentration, and not at the lvl of concentration described as Access Concentration in the Vissudhimagga and by the Shamata Yanika Traditions. Which brings us again full circle back to me reminding you of the students of Mahasi Sayadaw telling me, of sitting 4 to 5 hrs for High Equanimity and Ajahn Brahm and the Tibetan tradition saying the same time period is required for Access Concentration. What a coincidence, I think not!&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;By the way, the later two teachers would be saying you need full Jhana with the ability to sit around 8 to 12 or even to 24 hours to attain. But not only are there Suttric references that state otherwise, but there are living traditions that give evidence to the minority of reports in the Sutta&amp;#039;s, of people attaining with Dry-Insight. I believe attainment is definitely available to the Dry-Insight practitioner, but only to those who have attained Khanika Samadhi to the level of Access Concentration. This can be either with Khanika Samadhi / Momentary Concentration or Access Concentration Upacāra-Samādhi (which working towards Appaṇā-Samādhi) or both! Because the difference between Kanika Samadhi and Fixed Attention is not that distinct. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a larger predominance in Buddhism of viewing Buddhist Practice throughout the world in the context of the Samatha Tradition, basically the Burmese are the only Dry-Insighter&amp;#039;s. It would seem to be broadly ignorant to disregard all other Buddhism&amp;#039;s definitions of Access Concentration and Jhana, and the Visuddhimagga that describes Jhana as a very high lvl of attainment. So if you give some relevance to what Shamata Yanika describes as Access Concentration what we get is a clearer definition of H. Eq. that is supported by the scripture more clearly and is built from a base of A.C. or its equivalent level in Khanika Samadhi! What is occurring is a cross reference, where each supports by the other. Because H. Eq. need 4 hrs and the description of Shamata Yanika AC also need 4 hrs, this actually validates both Yanika Traditions. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now to clarify an additional point or two, I&amp;#039;m not saying that Ingram&amp;#039;s definitions of soft &amp;amp; hard Jhana that can include thoughts are without validity, I don&amp;#039;t know, but I definitely wouldn&amp;#039;t water down Jhana or Access Concentration to the random experience of Jhanic factors that can arise in the earlier stages of Samadhi. The Jhana/Samata Yanika Traditions are defining Access Concentration in the ball park of 4 or 5 hours, so whatever your so called experiences of Jhana are, they&amp;#039;re not really at the required level of the attainment of stream entry if you can&amp;#039;t attain access concentration or equanimity to the level of around 4 to 5 hours as I have defined it earlier.&lt;br /&gt;Yeah sure some dude may have attained in 1 hour, that doesn&amp;#039;t mean they didn&amp;#039;t have access concentration to the level I stated before though. Though for most us, we may have to do the hard work, and if we haven&amp;#039;t done a 4hr sit, we probably wont get Stream Entry.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jhana Notes: I am Still Working on these.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Notes from, &amp;#039;The Attention Revolution&amp;#039; by B. Allan Wallace, on &lt;u&gt;The 10 stages of Jhana in the Tibetan Shamata Yanika Tradition.&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;the sequence of shamatha training begins with relaxation, then stabilising attention., and finally maintaining relaxation and stability while gradually increasing vividness… If you want to develop exceptional vividness, first develop relaxation, second develop stability, and finally increase vividness. Between formal meditation sessions, it is vital to maintain a high degree of mindfulness and introspection throughout the day&amp;#034; pg.68.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Psychologists have found that the time generally needed to acquire expertise in a variety of high-level skills is five to ten thousand hours of training in a discipline of eight hours each day for fifty weeks in the year. This is roughly the degree of commitment required to progress along the entire path to the achievement of shamatha.&amp;#034; pg. 66.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1st stage: &amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;directed attention&lt;/em&gt;... is simply being able to place your mind on your chosen object of meditation fro even a second or two. If you are directing your attention to a... complex visualization, this may take days or weeks...But if your chosen object is your breathing, you may achieve this stage on your first attempt.&amp;#034;, pg.13.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2nd stage: &amp;#034;In the 2nd...stage, &lt;em&gt;continuous attention&lt;/em&gt;, you experience occasional periods of continuity, but most of the time your mind is still caught up in wondering thoughts and sensory distractions.&amp;#034; pg.30. &amp;#034;For most people.., the problem is...excitation.&amp;#034; there are, &amp;#034;...three levels of excitation. The 1st is called coarse excitation, which we typically encounter during the initial stages of attention training. The 2nd two levels of excitation, &lt;em&gt;medium excitation&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;subtle excitation&lt;/em&gt;, become apparent only during more advances stages of attention training.&amp;#034; pg.29.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;...on the second stage, although you experience periods when your attention was continually engaged with the object for as long as a minute, most of the time you were still caught up in distractions.&amp;#034; pg.43.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3rd stage: &amp;#034;When you reach.., &lt;em&gt;resurgent attention&lt;/em&gt;, during each practice session your attetnion is fixed most of the time upon your meditative object. By now, you will have increase the duration of each session beyond the initial 24mins to perhaps twice that.&amp;#034; &amp;#034;When you reach teh 3rd stage, your attentional stability has increase so that most of the time you remain engaged with the object. Occasionally there are still lapses where you when you completely forget the object,.. The third stage is achieved only when your mind remains focuses on the object most of the time in virtually all your sessions. &amp;#034; pg.43. &amp;#034;...coarse excitation is the predominant problem during the third stage of attentional development.&amp;#034; pg.47. &amp;#034;The further you progress in this practice, the subtler the breath becomes. At times it may become so subtle that you can&amp;#039;t detect it at all. This challenges you to enhance the vividness of attention.&amp;#034; pg.48.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4th stage: &amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;called close attention&lt;/em&gt;… due to the power of enhanced mindfulness, you no longer completely forget your chosen object,.. your sessions may now last an hour or longer, your attention can not be involuntarily drawn entirely away from the object. You are now free of coarse excitation.&amp;#034; pg.59. &amp;#034;While your attention is no longer prone to coarse excitation, it is still flawed by a medium degree of excitation and coarse laxity. When medium excitation occurs, you don&amp;#039;t completely lose track of your object of attention, but involuntary thoughts occupy the centre of your attention and the meditative object is displaced to the periphery.&amp;#034; pg.62.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Bhante Gunaratana&amp;#034;&amp;#039;s, &amp;#034;description of the Vipassana view of mindfulness in his book, &amp;#039;Mindfulness in Plain English&amp;#039;.&amp;#034; is a &amp;#034;bare attention,.. is present-time awareness…if you are remembering,.. that is memory. When you become aware that you are remembering… that is mindfulness.&amp;#034;33&amp;#034; this &amp;#034;description is representive of the current Vipassana tradition as a whole, it is oddly at variance with the Buddha&amp;#039;s own description of mindfulness, or sati: &amp;#034;And what monks, is the faculty of sati? Here, monks, the noble disciple has sati, he is endowed with the perfect sati and intellect, he is one who remembers, who recollects what was done and said long before.&amp;#034;…it is weel known that the Pali term sati has its primary meaning in &amp;#039;recollection&amp;#039;, or &amp;#039;memory,&amp;#039;… in addition to its connotations of &amp;#039;retrospective memory,&amp;#039; sati also refers to &amp;#039;prospective memory,&amp;#039;&amp;#034; pg.60-1. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Buddhaghosa…wrote: &amp;#034;Sati&amp;#039;s: characteristic is not floating; its property is not losing; its manifestation is guarding or the state of being face to face with an object; its basis is strong noting or the application of mindfulness of the body and so on. It should be seen as like a post due to its state of being set in the object, and as like a gatekeeper because it guards the gate of the eye and so on. &amp;#034;quote 36 &amp;#034; pg.61.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;5th &amp;#034;stage… called &lt;em&gt;tamed attention&lt;/em&gt;…you find you can take satisfaction in your practice, even though there is still some resistance to it… Free of coarse excitation, you must now confront another problem that was lurking in the shadows of your mind all along: coarse laxity… the symptom of this attentional disorder is that your attention succumbs to dullness, which causes it to largely disengage from its meditative object… attention fades,.. that leads down to sluggishness, lethargy, and finally sleep. This is a peaceful state of mind, so the ignorant may mistake it for the attainment of shamatha,&amp;#034; pg.77.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;In addition to the… problem of medium excitation-…-you now have the task of recognising and counteracting a medium degree of laxity,.. having achieved the third and fourth stages with the power of mindfulness, the fifth stage is achieved by the power of introspection, is… monitoring the quality of your attention,.. so that you can detect more and more subtle degrees of laxity and excitation.&amp;#034; pg.78.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Buddhaghosa drew this distinction between mindfulness and introspection: &amp;#034;Mindfulness has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding. Introspection has the characteristic of non-confusion. Its function is to investigate. It is manifest as scrutiny.&amp;#034;quote 45 &amp;#034; pg.79.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Buddhist psychology classifies introspection as a form of intelligence (prajna),&amp;#034; pg.79.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;6th &amp;#034;stage, known as &lt;em&gt;pacified attention&lt;/em&gt;… is achieved by the power of introspection, and by now you no longer experience resistance to the training. You must still be on guard against… medium laxity, in which... the object of mindfulness,… is not very vivid. In addition, you… ned to be able to detect subtle excitation, in which the meditative object remains at the centre of attention, but involuntary thought emerge at the periphery.&amp;#034; pg.99.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;At times when we become fixated on something, our mind become very small. Trivial issues loom up in our awareness as if they were very large and important. In reality, they haven&amp;#039;t become large. Our minds have become small. The experienced magnitude of the contents of the mind is relative to the spaciousness of the mind.&amp;#034; pg.99-100.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Throughout the development of shamatha, even at this relatively advanced stage, a myriad of emotions and other mental and physical conditions may arise,.. One of the more common challenges in this practice is the emergence of fear… As lapses between thought occur more and more frequently and for longer periods, your awareness hovers in a kind of vacuum devoid of personhood… Another emotional balance that may crop up at any time throughout this training is depression, which may be related to a deep-rooted sense of guilt and low self-esteem… treat them like any other mental event: watch their emergence, see how they linger, then observe them disappear back into the space of the mind. Examine them with intelligence,..&amp;#034; pg.100-1&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The Vajra Essence emphasises… Everyones mind is unimaginably complex… Here is a list of just some of the kinds of meditative experiences cited… that may arise during this training, especially when it is pursued in solitude for many hours each day, for months on end: 57 &amp;#034; pg.105.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;The impression that all your thoughts are wreaking havoc in your body and mind,&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A sharp pain in your heart as a result of all your thoughts,&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The ecstatic, blissful sense that mental stillness is pleasurable, but movement is painful&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The perception of all phenomena as brilliant, coloured paticles&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;An inexplicable sense of paranoia about meeting other people, visiting their homes, or being in public places&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Such unbearable misery that you think your heart will burst&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt; There are many more.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;7th stage, &amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;fully pacified attention&lt;/em&gt;… as your mind settles more and more deeply… there is nothing … to attach to…. the seventh stage is achieved by enthusiasm: the practice itself now fills you with with joy… Having overcome the medium degree of laxity, subtle laxity remains, in which the object of mindfulness appears vividly, but you attention is slightly slack… subtle … laxity… is detected only in relation to the exceptionally high degree of vividness. Subtle excitation also occurs from time to time.&amp;#034; pg. 117.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;You have become highly adept at balancing and refining your attention, the rest of the journey to the realisation of shamatha is all downhill… the mind has become so refined that your meditation sessions may last for at least two hours with only the slightest interruptions by laxity and excitation… Now you don&amp;#039;t even prefer thoughts to be absent. Instead of deliberately letting them go--banishing them from your mind--you let them be, without deliberately influencing them in any way.&amp;#034; pg.118.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In comparative terminology, in my opinion, this is where you are &amp;#039;after&amp;#039; the fast flowing vibrations have finished in the insight jhanas of late mastery which has a later stage that models or is a micro-cosm of actual high equanimity. The evidence for this in terms of self diagnosis is, are you alternating between fast flowing vibrational states (the mini dark night of late mastery) and peaceful spacious states; not totally refined though. Then at peak experiences, intermittently getting to a peaceful spacious state of great ease of body that is only lasting 2 or 2 ½ hours, before a come down effect comes into place, where you go back to the alternating of the first two. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;8th &amp;#034;stage, known as &lt;em&gt;single point attention&lt;/em&gt;… You can now sustain … highly focused attention, free of the imbalances of even the subtlest laxity and excitation for at least three hours or so. Only the slightest degree of effort is uses at the beginning of each session to ward off these obstacles, and you continue in you practice motivated by the power of enthusiasm… the overall quality of this state of samadhi is on of stillness.&amp;#034; pg. 131.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;9th stage &amp;#034;known as &lt;em&gt;attentional balance&lt;/em&gt;. You as now able to maintain flawlessly samadhi, effortlessly and continuously for at lest four hours. Due to the power of deep familiarisation with this training, you can slip into meditative equipoise, free of even the subtlest traces of laxity and excitation, with no effort at all… If for some reason you discontinue the practice, your will find that laxity and excitation erode your attentional equipoise… Contempatives who have achieved this ninth stage of attentional balance describe the quality of this experience simply as perfection.&amp;#034;pg. 143.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is access concentration and one can sit for at least 4hrs with pliancy &amp;amp; ease.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;10th is Jhana&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I state, these last 3 levels are hard to acquire and very subtle and directly applicable to letting go into high equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These notes about Jhana from Ajahn Brahms book are basically how the Theravada Samatha Yanika tradition views Jhana: &lt;u&gt;The 7 stages of Jhana In the Thai Shamata Yanika Tradition&lt;/u&gt;. When I get another copy of the book will try to quote directly from it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage1: &lt;br /&gt;Present Moment Awareness: Be here now, listen, look, feel body awareness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage2: &lt;br /&gt;Silent Present Moment Awareness: Bring the mind to the now, free from the past, future &amp;amp; elsewhere. Sense the space &amp;amp; silence of mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage3: &lt;br /&gt;Silent Present Moment Awareness of the Breath: Spacious silent Awareness, in the now relaxing the body, starting to follow the breath. Breathing in the now calmly…Breathing out the now calmly, allow the natural breathing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage4: &lt;br /&gt;Full Sustained Attention on the Breath: Attentive moment to moment awareness of the in &amp;amp; out breath. &lt;br /&gt;This is reached by letting go, relaxing into the attentive moment, not through forceful attentiveness&lt;br /&gt;You do not do reach this stage the mind does. this is where the doer, the major part of one&amp;#039;s ego, starts to disappear &amp;amp; unity and peace start to become present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage5: &lt;br /&gt;Full Sustained Attention on the Beautiful Breath: The beautiful breath is when we maintain the unity of consciousness by not interfering the breath which will begin to become subtler, smooth and peaceful. Take time to saviour the sweetness of the beautiful breath (as Piti needs to be developed). You do not do anything, if you try to do something at this stage, you will disturb the whole process, from now on the doer has to disappear. In the later stages the breath will become very subtle and eventually disappears, all that&amp;#039;s left is the beautiful, the mind is now taking the mind as its own object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage6: &lt;br /&gt;The Beautiful Nimitta: When one lets go of the body, thoughts and the five senses (including awareness of the breath) so completely that only a beautiful mental sign remains. Also the Breath and Space can be a Nimitta though this is not described much in this book. Some see a white light, some a gold star, some a blue pearl, for others perception chooses to describe this in terms of a physical sensation such as intense tranquillity or ecstasy; these are not physical perceptions associated with the body or the eyes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Qualities of the Nimitta: &lt;br /&gt;1) It appears only after the meditator has been with the beautiful breath for along time. &lt;br /&gt;2) It appears when the breath disappears. (Some argue this is merely the perception of the breath which has become extremely subtle others that it has stopped all together)&lt;br /&gt;3) The external 5 senses are completely absent. &lt;br /&gt;4) It only manifests in a silent mind. &lt;br /&gt;5) Strange but powerfully attractive. &lt;br /&gt;6) It is a beautiful simple object. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If the nimitta is dull or unstable, flashing and disappearing in both cases one should go back to the previous stage.&lt;br /&gt;The weak nimitta is caused by not enough depth of contentment and wanting, let go of the doer and enjoy, let the mind incline where it wants, which is usually the centre of the nimitta. If no nimitta arises after the breath disappear and instead peace, space, nothingness or emptiness is left, (this is not jhana) this could be because there isn&amp;#039;t enough piti or sukha. Within the calm-space, cultivate the contentment into delight, delight is generated by letting the energy flow into the knower, strengthening present moment awareness, which will increase bliss and then the nimitta will appear. It is possible the nimitta is a feeling nimitta, of strong bliss, but this nimitta is more difficult to gain access to jhana with (in this situation space may be associate).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stage7: &lt;br /&gt;Jhana: Attention gets drawn into the centre of the nimitta or the the light expands to envelope you, let the mind merge into bliss, then let the jhana occur. The obstacles of exhilaration and fears need to be subdued in favour of complete passivity to attain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The qualities of Jhana: &lt;br /&gt;1) It usually persists for many hours. (Scriptures state proper Jhana or full accomplished Jhana is 24 hrs, I think 10-12 may be enough for the first time.)&lt;br /&gt;2) Once inside there is no choice, emergence occurs naturally when the accumulated fuel of relinquishment is used up.&lt;br /&gt;3) It is impossible to perceive the body, sound, think or perceive time. &lt;br /&gt;4) It is not a trance but a heightened state of awareness of bliss that doesn&amp;#039;t move.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 01:41:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3525636</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-15T01:41:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3409132</link> <description>&amp;#034;I mean what if all the intriguing stuff about auric energy and the power of a mantra to change that dramatically over time is just made up? What if it&amp;#039;s just wholly superstition? &amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not an expert, but I wouldn&amp;#039;t rule out such a possibility.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;What if everyone who&amp;#039;s religious in the world, including me, is just grasping at straws and all there is is crude matter?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Not for sure. You are aware. A rock is crude matter and it&amp;#039;s not aware.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, something about mantras:&lt;br /&gt;-I think it&amp;#039;s one of the most effective ways to improve concentration, to the point that some monk says that it&amp;#039;s even a most effective preparation to insight practice than jhanas...&lt;br /&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/thate/buddho.html&lt;br /&gt;Even if everything elase is wrong, concentration will improve for sure, and that&amp;#039;s in my opinion more than enought to keep doing it. That&amp;#039;s not an illusion, it can&amp;#039;t be, if your concentration improves you know for sure it worked.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Also, they can be used as an object to develop insight meditation; here I&amp;#039;m quoting from MCBT, chapter on the Bill Hamilton model of the vipassana jhanas:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;To give another example, using a different object, if one is using a mantra, one may notice that at some point one shifts to being able to stay with mantra clearly and perceive it as an object, which is the first jhana, starting with Mind and Body. Once the mantra is clear, one may notice all sorts of things about the process of mentally creating the mantra, such as the stream of intentions being followed shortly behind by the string of the mantra itself, in turn followed slightly behind by the mental echo of the perception of the mantra, making what appear to be three separate streams of the mantra. This is direct insight into Cause and Effect, and as the Three Characteristics of each of these streams become clear, the first jhana matures. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then the mantra will shift to presenting itself, and will become very clear, as if it is reciting itself. This is obviously the second jhana, and one may experience A&amp;amp;P-like phenomena around here. As the practitioner shifts into the third jhana, the mantra gets wide in the stereo field, complex, with interesting harmonies if one is so inclined, and yet it may seem to be out of phase with attention or it may seem distorted, annoying, like something that was once beautiful but has become noisy. One may experience Dark Night-related phenomena in this phase. As the shift to the fourth jhana comes, the mantra may become part of a very wide, more quiet background, as attention becomes inclusive. Other fourth jhana-like or high equanimity-like phenomena may occur around here.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Observing all of theese shifts of perception in a mantra can help you to be sure that you are making progress in the territory of insight, not having to fear to be fooling yourself in any way...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bye!</description> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 06:55:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3409132</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-09T06:55:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3406322</link> <description>A really interesting thing to do is to dedicate your attention solely to pleasurable sensations of breathing, or to pleasurable feelings around your heart during metta practice. You may at some point notice a repeatable phenomenon where you at first feel exhilarated (but also mildly upset by the work required to sustain a tight focus), then you settle down a bit as the exhilaration is made sweeter by a sense of effortlessness and ease. Next, you may drop into a quieter, more peaceful form of happiness, and finally the peace and quiet will deepen as happiness is replaced by profound clarity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At this point, a really REALLY interesting thing to do would be some sort of insight practice. There is choiceless awareness, there is whole-body awareness, there is noticing (i.e. silent noting)... A frequent favorite is trying to notice the ends of sensations. Or, what&amp;#039;s left at the place where there used to be a sensation after that sensation has ended. That could be quite the fruitful practice, especially if you have first made your mind quiet, peaceful, and clear. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That is the POV I find most helpful in understanding the connections and distinctions between shamatha and vipassana. Though like all views, it is limited. Its primary function is to get you to do the practice, and if it fails that critical litmus test then it would not be a useful view for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If the above practice does not appeal to you, there are myriad other effective practices and you should not feel bad for preferring one over the other.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 05:03:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3406322</guid> <dc:creator>J Adam G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-08T05:03:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3405490</link> <description>I don&amp;#039;t want to get into an argument about it, because ontological concerns don&amp;#039;t seem to have any relevance to my practice, but I generally relate to the world from the default assumption that we are simply crude matter. Until recently, I actually wrote &amp;#034;Scientist&amp;#034; on forms which asked me my occupation. Again, I don&amp;#039;t want to argue about that, I just want to point out that it is possible to have a serious practice without expecting any supernatural benefits. How are the secular concerns you raised &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3131267"&gt;earlier&lt;/a&gt; going? It&amp;#039;s possible to benefit in those directions from practice, too, no auric energy required.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 02:52:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3405490</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-08T02:52:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3405274</link> <description>oh I don&amp;#039;t know, I mean I like mantras so I&amp;#039;ve been making an extra effort lately not to miss a day, to at least do two strings of earnestly concentrated-upon mantra repetitions every day. It&amp;#039;s hard for me to overcome doubt though, always has been. I mean there&amp;#039;re thoughts like, &amp;#034;well why not this other mantra, maybe that one feels better, or is more what I want at the moment.&amp;#034; Or, I also have thoughts like &amp;#034;mmm well how do I know all of this isn&amp;#039;t just placebo effect?&amp;#034; I mean what if all the intriguing stuff about auric energy and the power of a mantra to change that dramatically over time is just made up? What if it&amp;#039;s just wholly superstition? What if everyone who&amp;#039;s religious in the world, including me, is just grasping at straws and all there is is crude matter? What if it&amp;#039;s all in my head? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m just saying these are the kind of powerful doubts I&amp;#039;ve always had to wrestle with, and in general I manage to keep on keeping on, but it&amp;#039;s still very challenging. What makes it more difficult to combat is that I feel sure I&amp;#039;ve had a lot of positive results, but they&amp;#039;re very subtle and over a long period of time - I&amp;#039;ve never had any whish-bang events or conversations with magickal beings or all that business, and if I had it&amp;#039;d be easier to point to that as proof that there is something to all of this, that it&amp;#039;s not just alternative therapy for the socially disgruntled. I&amp;#039;ve been meditating a long time too, maybe not crazy intensely and consistently, but if those sort of things were going to happen, I feel they would have already. I mean how many people really would easily admit that the path they&amp;#039;ve been on has been bullshit, that it turned out to be a mirage?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2012 00:35:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3405274</guid> <dc:creator>Mike Kich</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-08T00:35:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3404702</link> <description>BTW, is this question motivated by anything that&amp;#039;s coming up in your own practice? All the different schools have different theoretical approaches, but modulo superficial differences there are generally really only a few ways to approach a given practice problem.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:37:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3404702</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-07T19:37:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3403747</link> <description>To clarify my explanation: if a person is experiencing a rapid procession of mental states, then to see experience strobing is more accurate than not to see it strobing, as all those mental states (etc.) are impermanent, and impermanent mental states running through the mind, experienced as impermanent, strobe in a very gross way. But the strobing effect lessens as the mind gets more under control and becomes more concentrated...so the strobing effect is an artifact of a certain kind of mental functioning, and not the way reality will necessarily be experienced as a consequence of insight.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 13:49:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3403747</guid> <dc:creator>End in Sight</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-07T13:49:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402784</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mike Kich:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;yeah I&amp;#039;ve read that before..I&amp;#039;m not very interested in a strictly &amp;#034;Buddhist&amp;#034; approach as per the suttas and so on. It seems like every time I ask a question on this site, people answer and make it out to be more complicated than what I&amp;#039;m asking. I&amp;#039;d really just like an answer for once that runs something like, &amp;#034;yes...daddadada&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;no, because....dadadadad&amp;#034;. You&amp;#039;d think I&amp;#039;d know better by now.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, MCTB says one thing, other sources say other things, so you&amp;#039;re not going to get a clear yes or no unless you accept some source on faith, or try the practice for yourself and come to your own conclusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The explanation that satisfies me is, the perception of gross strobing (the kind that you can notice while walking around) depends on the rapid interplay of various mental states. If you can get your mind to stop spinning so fast, the gross strobing will be reduced, and in that state, perhaps, the experience of gross strobing (if you care to remember and reflect on it) may seem more and more like some grotesque aberration rather than an insight into the nature of reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But really, check it out for yourself. And keep in mind that if there are different methods of concentration, there&amp;#039;s no guarantee that they&amp;#039;re all producing the same states of concentration.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 01:05:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402784</guid> <dc:creator>End in Sight</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-07T01:05:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402748</link> <description>There are plenty of people teaching Buddhist meditation from a pragmatic point of view. Try &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x3f;id&amp;#x3d;-PrBkjz513YC&amp;#x26;printsec&amp;#x3d;frontcover"&gt;this guy&lt;/a&gt; (my teacher) or &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;naturalawareness&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;"&gt;this guy&lt;/a&gt; (another student of his.) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;what-buddha-taught&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;Books3&amp;#x2f;Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Buddhadasa Bhikku&lt;/a&gt; is good, too.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 00:58:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402748</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-07T00:58:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402453</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mike Kich:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Unfortunately it doesn&amp;#039;t seem I can get off the ground without believing in something that I doubt exists or don&amp;#039;t care if it does - I doubt everything, and unfortunately that doesn&amp;#039;t work, but it&amp;#039;s not easy to believe what I feel I need to either.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, you can get off the ground without believing in something like lineages, chakras, karma, rebirth, sacred language(s), patriarchs, gods, devas, angels, demons, lokas, sacred directions, etc. If you doubt everything, may be emptiness will be your cup of tea. If not, then emptiness of emptiness will be! If you haven&amp;#039;t read mulamadhymakarika, you may want to give it a try.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:50:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402453</guid> <dc:creator>Change A.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-06T22:50:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402421</link> <description>yeah I&amp;#039;ve read that before..I&amp;#039;m not very interested in a strictly &amp;#034;Buddhist&amp;#034; approach as per the suttas and so on. It seems like every time I ask a question on this site, people answer and make it out to be more complicated than what I&amp;#039;m asking. I&amp;#039;d really just like an answer for once that runs something like, &amp;#034;yes...daddadada&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;no, because....dadadadad&amp;#034;. You&amp;#039;d think I&amp;#039;d know better by now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s really a huge point of frustration though that finding and adhering to one tradition and one or two techniques from that tradition seems necessary, in any world religion. I think they&amp;#039;re all interesting approaches and I&amp;#039;ve read extensively about just about anything you could think of, but yet...I dunno it&amp;#039;s just never for me, ancient formal approaches like that. Do I think koans are cool and useful? Sure. Do I care enough about the answers to their riddles to devote a lot of consistent interest and effort? Not really. What&amp;#039;s the sound of one hand? Fock if I know, and does it perturb my emotional landscape that I don&amp;#039;t know? No, not really. I just want a teacher and a tradition that doesn&amp;#039;t seem filled with bullshit and sundry religious stuff and chock full of assumptions (lineages, chakras, karma, rebirth, sacred language(s), patriarchs, gods, devas, angels, demons, lokas, sacred directions, etc.) which unfortunately every spiritual tradition in the world has its fair share of. Unfortunately it doesn&amp;#039;t seem I can get off the ground without believing in something that I doubt exists or don&amp;#039;t care if it does - I doubt everything, and unfortunately that doesn&amp;#039;t work, but it&amp;#039;s not easy to believe what I feel I need to either.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:37:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3402421</guid> <dc:creator>Mike Kich</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-06T22:37:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3397586</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;End in Sight:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mario Nistri:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;once you have some mastery over them you can easily see them strobing like anything else...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you perceive an object that you call &amp;#034;jhana&amp;#034; that strobes in and out of existence?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No; I percieve a particoular mental state that I call jhana composed by a lot of sensations; I don&amp;#039;t percieve strobing in and out of existence, but there there are sensations moving, changing in a way that does not seems to me particoularly different from the normal vipassana practice... [here I&amp;#039;m talking just of the first, never had access to all the others].</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 07:55:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3397586</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-06T07:55:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396239</link> <description>To add something more specifically practical to my response to Mike...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.002.than.html:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, &amp;#039;May my mind grow concentrated.&amp;#039; It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, &amp;#039;May I know &amp;amp; see things as they actually are.&amp;#039; It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows &amp;amp; sees things as they actually are.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Try the practice, see for yourself.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 23:17:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396239</guid> <dc:creator>End in Sight</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-05T23:17:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396227</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mario Nistri:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;once you have some mastery over them you can easily see them strobing like anything else...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you perceive an object that you call &amp;#034;jhana&amp;#034; that strobes in and out of existence?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 22:43:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396227</guid> <dc:creator>End in Sight</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-05T22:43:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Samatha contrary to experience?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396190</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;End in Sight:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mike Kich:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I mean if reality is strobing and inconstant, and if jhanic attainments are based mostly on an illusion of constancy, well what&amp;#039;s the point of that?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You gonna believe everything you read on the internet?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;God, that was cruel...&lt;br /&gt;lol&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, something like that was written also in MCTB: (even if then it makes clear that it is possible to practice insight during jhanas)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Try not paying too much attention to the individual sensations themselves, but conceptualize the breath as a coherent and continuous entity, with many different types of sensations all being thought of as being the breath. It is important to know that really getting into a sense of the breath as a continuous entity for ten seconds will do you more good than being generally with the breath on and off for an hour.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For sake of clarity, I&amp;#039;ll try to be precise on the thing: basically, jhana arise only in a way that is dependent from a good level of concentration, and if you focus on something solid and plaesent concentration can improve much more quickly than otherwise, so the basic instructions to get there are &amp;#034;Pretend that there is something solid and plaesent&amp;#034;, but this doesn&amp;#039;t mean that jhana are all about solidity, once you have some mastery over them you can easily see them strobing like anything else...</description> <pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2012 21:55:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3396190</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-05T21:55:25Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 