<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Vipassana: others, such as Thai Forest, Goenka, etc.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=12379</link> <description>For the discussion of other vipassana traditions</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:30:40 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:30:40Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: What i learned from Goenka</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536495</link> <description>Hi john,&lt;br /&gt;   I find also that when we find ourselves thinking to ourselves in the middle of doing activities and suddenly get distracted, we sometimes forget what we were thinking about and want to remember.  But that wanting to remember is more intense when the subject we were thinking about happened to be about ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;   Just a small observation &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2014 05:33:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536495</guid> <dc:creator>Thor Jackson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-22T05:33:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What i learned from Goenka</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536441</link> <description>After taking an &amp;#034;advanced&amp;#034; 10 day course in the middle of Thailand, one of the most benefitual thing i learned from his dharma talks was how we each paint a picture of ourself in our own heads of what it means to be us. When we praise ourself it glows and when we don&amp;#039;t it slowly dries up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why is this important? Because when we interact with the world we place the painting in things hoping that thing will make our painting glow. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If it glows and we believe that object was the cause then we crave it, but if it dries and we believe that object was the cause then we avoid it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But if you open your eyes and see what is really going on then a lot changes... I hope this helps everyone who struggles with the objects of the mind! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And like Goenka has said, may you all be happy may you all find peace.  :-)</description> <pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2014 02:13:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5536441</guid> <dc:creator>John Mckinstry</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-22T02:13:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What stage is Goenka's "subtle sensations all over the body"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5328619</link> <description>He talks about a stage where one feels subtle sensations all over the body and says that it is a station everyone must reach. Does that correspond to A&amp;amp;P on the insight maps? Thanks.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2014 07:28:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5328619</guid> <dc:creator>Trial And Error</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-20T07:28:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Question on noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320435</link> <description>As it turned out i did talk to him about finding a balance between noting and noticing the breath and how i had taken that hurdle.. He seemed ok with the way i had overcome that hurdle so all was well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;About the time lapse in walking meditation he explained that you can only do one thing at the time. so first you stop what you are doing and then proceed to acknowledge what it was that made you stop. At the time I felt that an adequate enough answer. only in rereading mtcb my doubts about acknowledging something that has passed seems strange to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;with love&lt;br /&gt;Eelco</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:22:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320435</guid> <dc:creator>Eelco ten Have</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T20:22:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Question on noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320189</link> <description>Did you ask that question to Asher? If you haven&amp;#039;t, you can still simply call him and ask.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also noticed some differences between noting as taught by ajahn tong-method and MCTB. So far I&amp;#039;ve always sticked to the Ajahn Tong style. No need to change something that works.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eelco ten Have:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Especially the walking meditation confuses me because in my mind when I notice thinking. Then go through the process of stopping before acknowledging I was thinking the initial though is gone already so acknowledging thinking at that time is no longer truth. I have circumvented this by pointing my awareness to the sense organ or sense door that caught my mind. So if a bird flew bye and is gone I would still acknowledge seeing, seeing, seeing with a direct awareness of what is in my visual field at that time.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then note: knowing, knowing, knowing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eelco ten Have:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think. I feel I am somehow not skilled enough yet to let go my instructions. On the other hand….&lt;br /&gt;Reading the above statement fills me with doubt about how to go about it… Like I said this technique does provide some stability and time to settle the mind. If I were to note every sensation I would not be able to settle on the breath or even take a first step in walking meditation as there’s always something to notice…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You don&amp;#039;t get points for noting every sensation there is. If you ask Asher about this, he&amp;#039;ll probably answer something along the lines of: &amp;#034;most people make the mistake that they try to label everything, and get totally lost in all the things the mind does, so they fail to really settle on the breath and don&amp;#039;t make progress.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;When I did a retreat with him, he repeated this point several times. It seemed quite important for him.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does that make sense?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:45:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320189</guid> <dc:creator>bernd the broter</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T19:45:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Question on noting</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5319953</link> <description>&lt;em&gt;This means that the instant you have experienced something, you know&lt;br /&gt;that it isn&amp;#039;t there any more, and whatever is there is a new sensation that&lt;br /&gt;will be gone in an instant.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;The above statement from the MCTB book has me wondering the vipassana instruction that has been given to me.&lt;br /&gt;First of when noting anything in the tradition I just had instruction in it is custom to acknowledge it 3 times. Except for the basic parts that are part of the instruction.&lt;br /&gt;So in sitting meditation you would go riiisiing, faaaaling, riiisiing….hearing. hearing. hearing. then wait for the next riiiisiiiing. Unless of course you see the waiting. waiting. waiting ;-)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;In walking a few steps are added. Heel up, lifting, moving, lowering, touching, pushing. Unless you see something. Then you acknowledge stopping. stopping. stopping then the sensation say thinking. thinking. thinking and then standing. standing. standing and intending to walk 3 times before starting with heel up.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;Especially the walking meditation confuses me because in my mind when I notice thinking. Then go through the process of stopping before acknowledging I was thinking the initial though is gone already so acknowledging thinking at that time is no longer truth. I have circumvented this by pointing my awareness to the sense organ or sense door that caught my mind. So if a bird flew bye and is gone I would still acknowledge seeing, seeing, seeing with a direct awareness of what is in my visual field at that time.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;This technique on the one hand I feel did help me as an inexperienced meditator to sort of take a little more time to get an overview of my sensate reality, and has in that sencse some properties I like and can work with. That said as my skill in noticing my perceptual reality from moment to moment grows I find more and more spaces where my acknowledgements are waaaaay behind the actual arising and passing of the sensation I am silently calling.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;What do you think. I feel I am somehow not skilled enough yet to let go my instructions. On the other hand….&lt;br /&gt;Reading the above statement fills me with doubt about how to go about it… Like I said this technique does provide some stability and time to settle the mind. If I were to note every sensation I would not be able to settle on the breath or even take a first step in walking meditation as there’s always something to notice…&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;With Love&lt;br /&gt;Eelco</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 18:56:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5319953</guid> <dc:creator>Eelco ten Have</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T18:56:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314442</link> <description>1. Follow Nikolai&amp;#039;s advice: he is quite experienced in this tradition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. To prepare physically, do some regular yoga or lots of stretching. The course is very physically demanding. It doesn&amp;#039;t include walking meditation, only lots and lots of sitting. Practice sitting for at least one hour at a time without moving, at least twice a day. Learn some stretches that help you with this -- I find the pigeon pose is useful (google it).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3. Be well-rested when you show up. They give you only limited time to sleep.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4. When you&amp;#039;re there, it&amp;#039;s fine to do some stretching if you have private quarters or can do something innocuous mostly out of sight from others. But don&amp;#039;t do extreme yoga poses where others can see you (standing on your head and so forth), it will only distract and disturb other people. (And it&amp;#039;s against the rules anyway.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;5. If you want to get a head start on meditation, practice concentration on the sensations that make up your breath in the area of your nostrils. Observe them very carefully, calmly, and continuously as possible. You can learn the body scan method while you&amp;#039;re there. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Have fun!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:13:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314442</guid> <dc:creator>Chris G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T14:13:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5313020</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bailey .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi,&lt;br /&gt;I have signed up for a Goenka 10 day that is on in April. I have been practicing sporadically for the last year or so using a mixture of techniques mostly focusing on the breath and some metta. About an hour a day on average I&amp;#039;d say. Basically I&amp;#039;d like to spend the next 3 months preparing as best I can so as to get the most out of the retreat (which will be my first retreat). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice would be appreciated.&lt;br /&gt;Metta&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are different categories of sila transgressions. Out of all the types of transgressions, breaking Dhamma sila is one of the worst. As is the nature of transgressions, the penalty reflects the type of infraction, meaning in some way or another your dhamma will suffer. Practicing noting at a Goenka meditation center is breaking Dhamma sila. It is messing with the vibrations of the center and because the transgression is happening in this Dhamma environment the consequences are multiplied.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would the ends justify the means? Would it be best traveling faster with what some believe to be a stronger technique? I don&amp;#039;t know, but I do know that if it were me I would follow the Geonka instructions (exactly emphasized) even if I thought noting was stronger. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;good luck&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for bringing this up. I have been reading about this issue and thinking about sila, and it is my belief that it is not breaking sila to note at a Goenka center. Interfering with others&amp;#039; experience by distracting them would be breaking sila, but what I do in my own head does not affect others&amp;#039; experience. I don&amp;#039;t see any way that my thoughts could &amp;#034;mess with the vibrations&amp;#034; of the center. Me noting does not cause anyone else any harm. I don&amp;#039;t believe sila is based on obedience; following instructions is not necessarily the right thing to do. I have a responsibility to do what I believe is right for my own enlightenment and for others, for the good of all beings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I could be wrong about this but these are my thoughts at the present time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From the Goenka course admission terms and code of discipline:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #FF0606"&gt; &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;The other rules should also be carefully read and considered. Only those who feel that they can honestly and scrupulously follow the discipline should apply for admission.&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt; [original text in &lt;strong&gt;bold &lt;/strong&gt;typeface]&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;u&gt;Students must declare themselves willing to comply fully and for the duration of the course with the teacher&amp;#039;s guidance and instructions&lt;/u&gt;; that is, to observe the discipline and to meditate exactly as the teacher asks, without ignoring any part of the instructions, nor adding anything to them. This acceptance should be one of discrimination and understanding, not blind submission. Such confidence in the teacher and the technique is essential for success in meditation.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;All other meditation techniques and healing or spiritual practices should also be suspended.&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Goenka course is freely given but it comes with certain clearly expressed terms.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Allow me to kindly point out that you are intending to deceive. Your reasoning is that since no one else will know and you will not get caught, it&amp;#039;s therefore not a problem to act deceitfully, as long as you believe that you can personally benefit from it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Where does such a perspective begin and where does it end? &lt;br /&gt;How do you expect that cultivating deceit will be a valuable quality as you walk on a path which has as it&amp;#039;s method and goal the refinement and purification of one&amp;#039;s mind? What makes you believe that you&amp;#039;ll make progress and arrive at anywhere worth being if the means are fundamentally at odds with the desired goal? &lt;br /&gt;What sort of enlightenment are you after? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Our world is full of takers. We are full of greed and dominated by our cravings. Here&amp;#039;s a rare opportunity to spend 10 days purifying your mind and improving yourself. Why poison it at its roots because of past behavior patterns? Why not really try to benefit yourself and see what, if any, impact there is on your practice and personal development by cultivating - at least provisionally - the jewel-like transformative nobility of personal integrity? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why not see this retreat as a extremely valuable and unusually rare opportunity to try to explore being honest for 10 days, to be truthful with yourself for ten days, to make an &lt;em&gt;earnest&lt;/em&gt; effort not to lie, scam, or steal? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps this attitude reflects one of the dangers of a certain type of Western dhamma by overemphasizing only a few spokes of the wheel and ignoring the others. How&amp;#039;s a wheel out of balance going to roll straight and smooth? It&amp;#039;s called the Noble EIGHTFOLD path and it&amp;#039;s unlikely one will travel far down the path without keeping all the spokes in tune. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“I have a responsibility to do what I believe is right for my own enlightenment and for others, for the good of all beings.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By cultivating your capacity to deceive and lie?&lt;br /&gt;By cultivating rationalization?&lt;br /&gt;A couple weeks back I read Bill Hamilton’s book Saints and Psychopaths wherein he writes: ‘That reminded me of a saying attributed to the Buddha, “There are no limits to the evil that a liar can do.” ‘ &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“I just don&amp;#039;t think it&amp;#039;s anyone else&amp;#039;s business what I do in my head.”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Exactly. Karma**.&lt;br /&gt;In the effort to eradicate our suffering, each of us is the prime beneficiary of his own integrity. &lt;br /&gt;You may discover that cultivating such integrity will improve whatever meditation style you happen to practice. &lt;br /&gt;(I&amp;#039;m not developed enough to know if and how such intentions manifest beyond oneself, for example &amp;#039;messing with the vibrations&amp;#039; of the meditation center ... although men wiser than me have said that everything is interconnected).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“Nick, my goal is to get to stream entry as quickly as possible. Do you think that body scanning will be as likely to get me to stream entry on a retreat as noting will?” &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Exactly what kind of stream are you looking to enter? &lt;br /&gt;The East River?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Buddhism gets a little scary when most of the modern stream enterers are liars, thieves, rapists, alcoholics, and murderers.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just kidding of course. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The hyperbole is for the sake of driving the point home, which applies equally well to myself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All my questions above are purely rhetorical ....my roundabout way of saying that the discipline of practicing sila is often very difficult, but balanced cultivation is always beneficial to one&amp;#039;s progress. One way to prepare for the retreat is to have as clean a head as possible going in regarding your intentions, resolve to make a sincere and serious effort to honor the five precepts during the ten days, and commit yourself to meet the high standards of discipline and effort that Goenka expects. He and/or his teachings may be stupid or they may not be, but why prejudge it based on others&amp;#039; experience? Have your own experience: resolve to keep an open mind and to learn something. I like Nick&amp;#039;s advice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Off my soapbox ;p &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wishing both JC and JMM a hugely productive and rewarding retreat with whatever techniques(s) they happen to use!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;** &lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;Every moment of our lives represents the causal consequences of, inter alia, all of our prior actions. No action &amp;#039;lies dormant&amp;#039; waiting for its consequences to emerge. Nor does any action somehow become &amp;#034;canceled&amp;#034; when some salient consequence is noticed. There is no accounting kept, and no debit and credit system, either from the causal or the moral point of view in the continuum of human action and experience. Rather, at each moment we are the total consequence of what we have done and of what we have experienced. And the only sense in which some past action may determine some future reward is one in which that past action, as well as other conditions, have determined a state now that, together with other future conditions, will determine that reward. Mutatis mutandis, of course, for negative consequences. This sober empiricist account of these matters forms the basis for Mahāyāna moral theory and its account of the nature of soteriological practice.&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, Nāgārjuna&amp;#039;s Mūlamadhyamakakārikā, translation and commentary by Jay L. Garfield, Oxford University Press 1995, p.238</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 09:02:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5313020</guid> <dc:creator>Monsoon Frog</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T09:02:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Cutting the chains of suffering</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302428</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;CUTTING THE CHAINS OF SUFFERING&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Most of the talk I see in meditation circles is about either &lt;em&gt;perceptual&lt;/em&gt; changes (such as seeing the 3 characteristics) or the slow cultivation of positive emotions (esp. metta) and skillful conduct. But I tend to see very little about actually cutting out the mind&amp;#039;s habit of craving at the deepest level, and whether this is indeed sufficient for the eradication of (psychological, at least) suffering. For example, do all negative emotions have craving at their root? Is there anyone around who&amp;#039;s really eradicated all craving?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve had some experiences on a Goenka retreat that have led me to believe that indeed, craving is at the root of all psychological dukkha. And moreover, at the root of craving is pleasant feeling. Here is a set of practice instructions which have helped me so far that are based on this idea. I still have a lot more work to do personally, so this is a work in progress for me, but perhaps it will be of interest. Consider these instructions to be experimental.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Hypotheses:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(I) All psychological suffering is a result of craving, which is a mental or physical inclination to reproduce, intensify, or prolong some experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(II) Craving originates in pleasant feeling, especially the gratification that comes from certain types of mental activity, such as cognizing the sense of &amp;#034;I am&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(III) This pleasant feeling is dedectable via sensations on the body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(IV) When the mind observes clearly, and with understanding, the process by which suffering originates from pleasant feeling, it drops its habit of craving this feeling, and suffering is diminished.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Some instructions:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(1) Develop concentration by non-judgementally observing the sensations of the breath at a particular place on the body, e.g., on the skin just below the nostrils and above the upper lip. Give rest to the mind, quiet extraneous mental activity, and simulataneously develop a capacity to observe a small window of subtle bodily sensations clearly and non-judgementally.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(2) Practice the body scan method. Systematically, piece-by-piece, observe sensations just as they are on the body. Begin with the top of the head, then proceed to the sides, back, forehead, the eyebrows, eyes, ears, etc., all the way down to the soles of the feet, then proceed upward again. Develop a capacity to nonjudgementally and clearly observe subtle sensations over the entire body, leaving no part untouched or unobserved.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(3) When (1) and (2) have been developed to a significant extent (e.g., several days of uninterrupted practice for each), turn one&amp;#039;s attention to contemplation of the process of suffering. Identify any unpleasant or tiresome psychological process in the mind, such as the cognition &amp;#034;I am”, or judgements about others. Observe the unpleasant physical sensations associated with this (often quite obvious -- these may be the indicator of the psychological process in the first place). Then look for pleasant sensations (often very subtle) that occur at the root of this activity. (&amp;#034;Is it true that all craving originates from pleasant sensation? Is there anything truly pleasant about this activity?&amp;#034;) Observe as clearly as possible the connection between these pleasant sensations and the unpleasant ones. Try to identify a step-by-step process by which pleasant sensations turn into craving and craving into suffering. When the mind sees this clearly, a shift will occur and suffering will be diminished.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A narrative or two can aid this investigation: e.g. &amp;#034;I want to feel happy, so I&amp;#039;m generating this sense of identity, and now I&amp;#039;m suffering.&amp;#034; Look for this process occuring. Or, &amp;#034;I want to feel good, so I&amp;#039;m picking out that person&amp;#039;s faults, and now I&amp;#039;m suffering.&amp;#034; Etc. Whatever is relevant to you. &amp;#034;I want that, but I&amp;#039;m getting this other thing, so I&amp;#039;m pushing it away and now I&amp;#039;m suffering.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Comments:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(a) Be sure to identify the pleasant sensations which underly this activity, and the connection between these pleasant sensations and the unpleasant sensations of dukkha. The mind doesn&amp;#039;t understand this connection; it doesn&amp;#039;t realize it&amp;#039;s making itself suffer. In other words, it&amp;#039;s ignorant. Observe carefully, and when the understanding clicks in, the process will be dropped. This dropping is a long-term effect, not a short-term one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(b) Pretty much all extraneous mental activity (&amp;#034;mind noise&amp;#034;) causes unpleasant sensations and originates in pleasant feeling (or possibly, simple habit).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(c) The body scan activity seems to create a connection between the conscious mind and the unconscious one. Deep emotions can be uncovered and come to the surface here, releasing feelings of fear, anger, etc. It can be quite intense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(d) This practice came about on a 10-day Goenka course for me. The 10-day course provides the perfect setup for this investigation. It&amp;#039;s also in line with Goenka&amp;#039;s discourses (in that suffering is said to be caused by craving for pleasant sensations on the body), although they never instruct you in step (3) above. If you&amp;#039;re willing, you can go on one of these courses and try step (3) on day 8 or 9.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(e) Personally, my mind is significantly quieter, my obsessive sense of self is diminished, and my anxiety has been much attenuated through this practice. However, I&amp;#039;ve found it works best on retreat, when lots of time is given to steps (1) and (2), and shortly after retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(f) The connection between craving and pleasant sensations on the body is something I didn&amp;#039;t believe until I investigated it on retreat and these shifts started occuring. It&amp;#039;s a powerful idea. Look to the body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Disclaimers/Warnings:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A. I&amp;#039;ve only done this on retreat once, but it was such a useful experience that I thought I&amp;#039;d share here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;B. I certainly have more work to do myself. I&amp;#039;m not even particularly skilled at concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Chris</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 15:44:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302428</guid> <dc:creator>Chris G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T15:44:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5190458</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The combo approach seems ok to me. In the goenka tradition you&amp;#039;re noticing (noting) the sensations of the body. First on the surface of the skin then deeper into the body. If your mind wanders to the other senses note it and move back to body. The alternative is to get lost in the content of whatever. Would that not be following instructions ? What is not worthy of not noticing?&lt;br /&gt;good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have the feeling that this is what I&amp;#039;m gonna do. It seems like a good idea to give the goenka style a fair go but I don&amp;#039;t see the problem with noticing a few other phenomena besides bodily ones if they become predominant.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks to everyone for the advice.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would be so radical as to notice the 3 characteristics in the sensations every once in a while too. The sensation is not me, doesn&amp;#039;t satisfy and is not permanent. I believe Goenka mentions all three during his talks.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Feb 2014 00:05:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5190458</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-07T00:05:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5190400</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The combo approach seems ok to me. In the goenka tradition you&amp;#039;re noticing (noting) the sensations of the body. First on the surface of the skin then deeper into the body. If your mind wanders to the other senses note it and move back to body. The alternative is to get lost in the content of whatever. Would that not be following instructions ? What is not worthy of not noticing?&lt;br /&gt;good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have the feeling that this is what I&amp;#039;m gonna do. It seems like a good idea to give the goenka style a fair go but I don&amp;#039;t see the problem with noticing a few other phenomena besides bodily ones if they become predominant.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks to everyone for the advice.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Feb 2014 23:32:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5190400</guid> <dc:creator>j m m</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-06T23:32:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5179633</link> <description>The combo approach seems ok to me. In the goenka tradition you&amp;#039;re noticing (noting) the sensations of the body. First on the surface of the skin then deeper into the body. If your mind wanders to the other senses note it and move back to body. The alternative is to get lost in the content of whatever. Would that not be following instructions ? What is not worthy of not noticing?&lt;br /&gt;good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 21:16:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5179633</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T21:16:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5179049</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bailey .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi,&lt;br /&gt;I have signed up for a Goenka 10 day that is on in April. I have been practicing sporadically for the last year or so using a mixture of techniques mostly focusing on the breath and some metta. About an hour a day on average I&amp;#039;d say. Basically I&amp;#039;d like to spend the next 3 months preparing as best I can so as to get the most out of the retreat (which will be my first retreat). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice would be appreciated.&lt;br /&gt;Metta&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are different categories of sila transgressions. Out of all the types of transgressions, breaking Dhamma sila is one of the worst. As is the nature of transgressions, the penalty reflects the type of infraction, meaning in some way or another your dhamma will suffer. Practicing noting at a Goenka meditation center is breaking Dhamma sila. It is messing with the vibrations of the center and because the transgression is happening in this Dhamma environment the consequences are multiplied.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would the ends justify the means? Would it be best traveling faster with what some believe to be a stronger technique? I don&amp;#039;t know, but I do know that if it were me I would follow the Geonka instructions (exactly emphasized) even if I thought noting was stronger. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;good luck&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for bringing this up. I have been reading about this issue and thinking about sila, and it is my belief that it is not breaking sila to note at a Goenka center. Interfering with others&amp;#039; experience by distracting them would be breaking sila, but what I do in my own head does not affect others&amp;#039; experience. I don&amp;#039;t see any way that my thoughts could &amp;#034;mess with the vibrations&amp;#034; of the center. Me noting does not cause anyone else any harm. I don&amp;#039;t believe sila is based on obedience; following instructions is not necessarily the right thing to do. I have a responsibility to do what I believe is right for my own enlightenment and for others, for the good of all beings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I could be wrong about this but these are my thoughts at the present time.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 19:15:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5179049</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T19:15:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5178719</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi,&lt;br /&gt;I have signed up for a Goenka 10 day that is on in April. I have been practicing sporadically for the last year or so using a mixture of techniques mostly focusing on the breath and some metta. About an hour a day on average I&amp;#039;d say. Basically I&amp;#039;d like to spend the next 3 months preparing as best I can so as to get the most out of the retreat (which will be my first retreat). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice would be appreciated.&lt;br /&gt;Metta&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are different categories of sila transgressions. Out of all the types of transgressions, breaking Dhamma sila is one of the worst. As is the nature of transgressions, the penalty reflects the type of infraction, meaning in some way or another your dhamma will suffer. Practicing noting at a Goenka meditation center is breaking Dhamma sila. It is messing with the vibrations of the center and because the transgression is happening in this Dhamma environment the consequences are multiplied.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would the ends justify the means? Would it be best traveling faster with what some believe to be a stronger technique? I don&amp;#039;t know, but I do know that if it were me I would follow the Geonka instructions (exactly emphasized) even if I thought noting was stronger. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;good luck</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 17:44:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5178719</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T17:44:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5177749</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In goenka&amp;#039;s courses he is adamant that one follow his instructions exclusively and it is expected that once you commit yourself to his donation based course that you will give his method an exclusive try for the time you are there. i took that promise seriously in my first two retreats and felt guilty on my third retreat because i decided to do noting. that guilt was not helpful to my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;call me silly then. no, you won&amp;#039;t get caught. you could, and perhaps should just note your ass off morning til night. that&amp;#039;s what i do when i self-retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;best of luck&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I apologize. I didn&amp;#039;t mean to offend or insult you... I&amp;#039;m not one to talk; I have lots of anger and other silly emotional reactions. At least yours is based on wanting to keep an agreement.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just don&amp;#039;t think it&amp;#039;s anyone else&amp;#039;s business what I do in my head.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 06:02:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5177749</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T06:02:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5177746</link> <description>Nick, my goal is to get to stream entry as quickly as possible. Do you think that body scanning will be as likely to get me to stream entry on a retreat as noting will?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 06:00:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5177746</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T06:00:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5176152</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In goenka&amp;#039;s courses he is adamant that one follow his instructions exclusively and it is expected that once you commit yourself to his donation based course that you will give his method an exclusive try for the time you are there. i took that promise seriously in my first two retreats and felt guilty on my third retreat because i decided to do noting. that guilt was not helpful to my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;call me silly then. no, you won&amp;#039;t get caught. you could, and perhaps should just note your ass off morning til night. that&amp;#039;s what i do when i self-retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;best of luck&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Speaking as one who has used and abused, my recommendation is to do a Goenka course following the course rules to the tee without mixing or doing other techniques. If you have not gained the physical subtlety that the sweeping technique can cultivate, I recommend doing so rather than not. This is an ideal level of discernment to progress rapidly via noting later on post-course. Give the technique a try first before completely bypassing it. You will develop a good level of physical discernment if so which will serve you later on when you commit to noting. You can really get something out of the technique if suitably motivated. Though little notes here and there can help the sweeping method be more effective when the mind wanders away from the object. I would often use the scripting notes of &amp;#034;equanimity and awareness&amp;#034; whenever my mind was caught wandering from the object of meditation. This is the main obstacle to any technique, not catching when the mind starts identifying, wandering, getting caught up in some phenomena (either neutral, unpleasant, pleasant, doesn&amp;#039;t matter), rather than becoming aware of it, noticing it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you get good at the sweeping method, and simply catch when the mind wanders whether due to dullness, aversion or craving, you will develop a healthy does of meditative skill that will serve you well with any direction you chose to take post-course. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And just to be clear I only used and abused after 15 x goenka course, doing it to the tee. The only obstacle I found to get to 1st path (as talked of here) in those 15 courses and 8 years of sweeping method practice, was not knowing what to do with my incessant wandering, identifying, embedding mind when getting into 11th nana territory. Learn to catch the wandering mind (whether it wanders towards or away from or into dullness it doesn&amp;#039;t matter) and the technique will serve you well in future when moving post-1st or even on the course, who knows?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My 2 cents&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2014 16:37:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5176152</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-01T16:37:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5176095</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In goenka&amp;#039;s courses he is adamant that one follow his instructions exclusively and it is expected that once you commit yourself to his donation based course that you will give his method an exclusive try for the time you are there. i took that promise seriously in my first two retreats and felt guilty on my third retreat because i decided to do noting. that guilt was not helpful to my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;call me silly then. no, you won&amp;#039;t get caught. you could, and perhaps should just note your ass off morning til night. that&amp;#039;s what i do when i self-retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;best of luck</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2014 13:19:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5176095</guid> <dc:creator>tom moylan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-01T13:19:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5175604</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Andrew Mayer:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They definitely don&amp;#039;t do that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You have to sign up to meet with the teachers, and they seem hell-bent on saying as little as possible even when you do.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Awesome! So I could just go, not meet with any &amp;#034;teachers,&amp;#034; ignore all the stupid instructions and just note, and there&amp;#039;d be no problems?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2014 01:57:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5175604</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-01T01:57:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5175600</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They definitely don&amp;#039;t do that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You have to sign up to meet with the teachers, and they seem hell-bent on saying as little as possible even when you do.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Feb 2014 01:51:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5175600</guid> <dc:creator>Andrew Mayer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-01T01:51:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5171241</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In goenka&amp;#039;s courses he is adamant that one follow his instructions exclusively and it is expected that once you commit yourself to his donation based course that you will give his method an exclusive try for the time you are there. i took that promise seriously in my first two retreats and felt guilty on my third retreat because i decided to do noting. that guilt was not helpful to my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d be interested in doing one of goenka&amp;#039;s courses and just noting the whole time. Other than the guilt (which seems silly to me) was there any problem with doing noting there? Was it obvious or did it come up at all that you weren&amp;#039;t doing what they said? Do they meet with you regularly and ask you questions about what you&amp;#039;re doing?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2014 07:21:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5171241</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-30T07:21:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5156386</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In goenka&amp;#039;s courses he is adamant that one follow his instructions exclusively and it is expected that once you commit yourself to his donation based course that you will give his method an exclusive try for the time you are there. i took that promise seriously in my first two retreats and felt guilty on my third retreat because i decided to do noting. that guilt was not helpful to my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;most of the other rules have to do with getting along in a group or are things like &amp;#034;noble silence&amp;#034; which help foster an atmosphere of renouncement and are generally helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;there are some aspects of the course which border on cultish activity, in my book, which grated on me but i tried to just look at them as an additional price of admission.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i would not suggest to you to break his rules but if for instance i see nothing wrong with doing stretching or yoga in the pauses between sits to alleviate the stress of long sitting although that is on his list of things not to do. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;in any case enjoy your retreat its a precious gift to yourself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tom</description> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:18:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5156386</guid> <dc:creator>tom moylan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-25T15:18:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147850</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;d suggest of that list, metta is what I&amp;#039;d choose&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you explain why? I am doing about a half hour of meta a day at the moment along with hour or so samatha and hour yoga...should I do all metta instead?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You may be overthinking your prep, but the yoga is definitely going to help!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To me, it really comes down to how interested you are in following Goenka&amp;#039;s instructions directly. Of what you listed, metta is probably something that aligns most closely to his system, while (ironically) also being something you won&amp;#039;t be practicing directly while you&amp;#039;re there. But as a *very* new student I found some of my biggest breakthroughs coming in the area of concentration, gratitude, and loving kindness. Heading into the experience in that state should put you in a good position to reap those benefits.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, I&amp;#039;m sure your experience will be different.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I was going to go again, I&amp;#039;d definitely not follow their strict top to bottom experience of the body. I practiced body scanning for over a year after the retreat, and I definitely found that I was getting far better results once I personalized and played with the the order (and the size) of the areas of the body I was scanning. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, They&amp;#039;re very focused on beginners only doing surface scanning. I wish I had been told to try more penetrative awareness earlier in the experience, but again, your mileage may vary.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:37:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147850</guid> <dc:creator>Andrew Mayer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-21T23:37:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147341</link> <description>Hey thanks for the replys...&lt;br /&gt;Ya I really should have thought of googling dharmaoverground.org Goenka seems a no brainer with hindsight!!.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;d suggest of that list, metta is what I&amp;#039;d choose&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you explain why? I am doing about a half hour of meta a day at the moment along with hour or so samatha and hour yoga...should I do all metta instead?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The advice about reading up on the criticisms of the retreats may be helpful by reducing the surprise factor but for my money the fundamental question is this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;will I follow Goenka&amp;#039;s advice and method exclusively and entirely or can I allow myself to &amp;#034;tweak&amp;#034; his method based on others&amp;#039; advice or my own experience&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not adverse to breaking a few rules if it is to my benefit and I suppose noone has to know at the retreat! Do you have any suggestions of any beneficial changes I could make to the instructions?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:02:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147341</guid> <dc:creator>j m m</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-21T18:02:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5144443</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi,&lt;br /&gt;I have signed up for a Goenka 10 day that is on in April. I have been practicing sporadically for the last year or so using a mixture of techniques mostly focusing on the breath and some metta. About an hour a day on average I&amp;#039;d say. Basically I&amp;#039;d like to spend the next 3 months preparing as best I can so as to get the most out of the retreat (which will be my first retreat). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice would be appreciated.&lt;br /&gt;Metta&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;unless you are a vegetarian already----&amp;gt; BEANO!!!!! adding gastrointestinal unease and gas to the mix might not be the best for your concentration...although the arising and passing away is distinct (ouch...triple pun!!).&lt;br /&gt;Butt seriously folks....&lt;br /&gt;there is a lot of great conversations about this in past threads. &lt;br /&gt;Google ---&amp;gt; &lt;a href=""&gt;site:http://www.dharmaoverground.org Goenka&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 20 Jan 2014 17:03:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5144443</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-20T17:03:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5144035</link> <description>Howdy,&lt;br /&gt;first of all consider yourself very fortunate to have this opportunity. it is a really powerful chance for real progress.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i love retreats and there are two resources which have helped me more than any others in preparing for retreats i have taken and these are:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;ReformedSlackersGuide&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;ReformedSlackersGuide"&gt;Tarin&amp;#039;s - ReformedSlackersGuide&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;de&amp;#x2f;2010&amp;#x2f;11&amp;#x2f;going-for-stream-entry-on-goenka-10-day&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Nick&amp;#039;s - SE on Goenka Retreat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Berndt&amp;#039;s very practical advice about getting your body used to LOOONG sits is very important. In addition to that, I find that doing stretching, especially light yoga, helps with this. The advice about reading up on the criticisms of the retreats may be helpful by reducing the surprise factor but for my money the fundamental question is this: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt; &amp;#039;will I follow Goenka&amp;#039;s advice and method exclusively and entirely or can I allow myself to &amp;#034;tweak&amp;#034; his method based on others&amp;#039; advice or my own experience&amp;#039;.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If your chosen center has dormitory sleeping arrangements you might think of earplugs if you are a light sleeper otherwise the suggested list of things to bring supplied by the center is adequate. Don&amp;#039;t leave early, no matter what!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tom</description> <pubDate>Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:02:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5144035</guid> <dc:creator>tom moylan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-20T11:02:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5143850</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;j m m:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;...and advice on what I should be focusing on at the moment? Concentration or mahasi or metta?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d suggest of that list, metta is what I&amp;#039;d choose. Goenka reallly asks that you give his method a try while you&amp;#039;re there. It&amp;#039;s hard to feel honest in action jf you&amp;#039;re not practicing their technique while you are taking their hospitality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Personally it wasn&amp;#039;t the most powerful technique I&amp;#039;d ever tried&amp;#x2014;Mahasi has brought me a great deal more insight. But I&amp;#039;m grateful for the retreat: it taught me how much intensity and focus I was capable of. It&amp;#039;s a gift I&amp;#039;m still thankful for 18 months later, even if I don&amp;#039;t ever go back.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:47:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5143850</guid> <dc:creator>Andrew Mayer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-20T06:47:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5140740</link> <description>OK thanks that makes sense, I&amp;#039;&amp;#039; try and get in2 hours a days sitting between here and then and see what happens&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2014 15:43:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5140740</guid> <dc:creator>j m m</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-18T15:43:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139558</link> <description>I have no idea if some preparatory practice is helpful for the retreat. I don&amp;#039;t think it&amp;#039;s necessary since the retreat setting will take you in deep meditation very fast in a way that daily practice can&amp;#039;t really emulate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But here are two more thoughts on this:&lt;br /&gt;1. Really take time to relax before the retreat. Quoting Bhante Sujato: &amp;#034;it would be best, if you could all lie on the beach for 5 days before the retreat.&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;On my last retreat, I ruined the first 1,5 days of it because I wasn&amp;#039;t properly relaxed and basically slept over the first 1,5 days...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. As you probably know, Goenka retreats involve a lot of sitting. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a good idea to already get used a bit to that beforehand. Lots of pain will still remain, but I doubt it&amp;#039;s helpful to make the thing more excruciating than necessary.&lt;br /&gt;If you find that you have lots of pain while sitting, it may be helpful to work on your sitting posture. This may change a lot, although it can be really difficult to find out how to sit in a better way. Methods such as Feldenkrais help greatly with that, but are hardly related to meditation. When asked, some Goenka teachers don&amp;#039;t have more helpful things to say about pain than &amp;#034;this is normal, it&amp;#039;s your sankharas coming to the front&amp;#034;. (If you find yourself in that situation on the retreat, I would ask for a chair btw...)</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:24:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139558</guid> <dc:creator>bernd the broter</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-18T02:24:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139288</link> <description>HaHa don&amp;#039;t worry anything like that will just go in one ear and out the other...the chance the go on a ten day retreat will be well worth , i&amp;#039;ll stick it out till the end for sure...and advice on what I should be focusing on at the moment? Concentration or mahasi or metta?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2014 23:32:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139288</guid> <dc:creator>j m m</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-17T23:32:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139280</link> <description>Probably you won&amp;#039;t need this, but here&amp;#039;s something that helped me:&lt;br /&gt;read some criticism about the Goenka tradition before (about both the negative and the positive side of the tradition &amp;amp; technique). If you don&amp;#039;t do this, you might be so swamped by all the weirdness, that you lose faith right in the middle of the retreat. Which would be a shame because the retreats are really a good option for serious practice.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2014 23:10:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139280</guid> <dc:creator>bernd the broter</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-17T23:10:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>How to prepare for Goenka 10 day</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139246</link> <description>Hi,&lt;br /&gt;I have signed up for a Goenka 10 day that is on in April. I have been practicing sporadically for the last year or so using a mixture of techniques mostly focusing on the breath and some metta. About an hour a day on average I&amp;#039;d say. Basically I&amp;#039;d like to spend the next 3 months preparing as best I can so as to get the most out of the retreat (which will be my first retreat). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice would be appreciated.&lt;br /&gt;Metta</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Jan 2014 22:52:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5139246</guid> <dc:creator>j m m</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-17T22:52:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Vipassana (Goenka): first experiences and some doubts</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4834699</link> <description>I&amp;#039;d direct these questions at whichever center you did your retreat at. There&amp;#039;s usually, if not always, an assistant teacher answering emails about technique.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Pablo G R:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, the question is: is it normal? did anyone experienced things like this? do you think that maybe there is something that I am not doing correctly? how long can a sensation last before &amp;#034;passing away&amp;#034;?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s very normal. Not that I&amp;#039;m a good example (I was practicing for very much the wrong reasons), but I had solidified sensations along my entire back for a year... Just try to notice what&amp;#039;s present there as many times per second as possible; check out TJ Broccoli&amp;#039;s incredible post about &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;401790&amp;#x23;_19_message_2325857"&gt;seeing impermanence in Goenka body scanning&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;~j</description> <pubDate>Sat, 26 Oct 2013 14:40:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4834699</guid> <dc:creator>Erasmas II</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-26T14:40:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Vipassana (Goenka): first experiences and some doubts</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4833871</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Pablo G R:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi all,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve finished my first 10-days Goenka&amp;#039;s Vipassana about 1 month ago. I&amp;#039;ve been practising, since then, every day (2 and even 3 hours/day). And I&amp;#039;m writing in order to have the advise of those more experiences on this technique because I have some doubts about my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m sorry if, for logic reasons, I don&amp;#039;t use the &amp;#034;technique&amp;#034; (Pali?) right words to express myself but I&amp;#039;m just a beginner.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Before exposing my doubts, I would like to tell you that I understand perfectly the idea of observing the sensations equanimously and I think that I apply it pretty much all the time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In general I think that for being a beginner and discovering this technique for the first time I manage to reach an acceptable level of concentration pretty fast (I don&amp;#039;t even need to start by anapana and I can start directly with body-scanning... some times being able to directly feel a free flow and sometimes needing to start by part-by-part scan). Sometimes I even manage to feel these kind of vibrations across a big part of my body at the same time (and sometimes even through my entire body at the same time!).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, here are my doubts:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Since the moment when I started practising Vipassana (3rd-4rd day) that I&amp;#039;m having &amp;#034;the same&amp;#034; (I know... I know... not the same but you know what I mean...) kind of solidified gross sensations in the same area of the body: always in my forehead, from my eyes upwards and covering even part of my head. Sometimes those sensations &amp;#034;appears&amp;#034; as soon as I close my eyes and start to get relaxed. The sensations changes from one time to the other even if they are located on the same region: sometimes a very solidified sensations, sometimes a kind of pulsation, but the most often they are like &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034; moving across my face and head. Even if I&amp;#039;m able to feel some vibrations underneath these &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034; or those gross sensations they stay always there and I&amp;#039;m able to feel it even if I&amp;#039;m continuing the scan and that I am observing my feet... those head sensations are still there. I don&amp;#039;t react on a particular way to them and I just continue my body-scan, I know also that ANICCA and that this will pass away but it&amp;#039;s been a while since these sensations are still there on almost every sitting. Sometimes even after finishing my sitting some of those sensations persists along the day... it&amp;#039;s annoying even if I try to just continue observing it even if I&amp;#039;m not meditating, but it&amp;#039;s difficult tonot feel the famous aversion or something similar when you have the same strange sensation on your face during the whole day. So, the question is: is it normal? did anyone experienced things like this? do you think that maybe there is something that I am not doing correctly? how long can a sensation last before &amp;#034;passing away&amp;#034;? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) The next question is also connected with the previous one and, even if I understand that the goal is to just observe and develop the equanimity, these sensations makes me wander if there is any kind of interpretation that we can do from those sensations depending on where they are located and the kind of sensation (pulsation, strong solidified, heat, &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034;, etc, etc).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) Regarding the &amp;#034;procedure&amp;#034;: if I understood properly the idea is that, even if you are able to feel the free flow all along the body, after 2 or 3 scans its advisable to come back to the part-by-part scan. Regarding the speed: when doing the free-flow, how fast should we scan the body? And also for the part-by-part... how many time should it take to scan the whole body?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thank you very much for your help!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With Metta,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;P.G.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hello Pablo, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There should be a weekly half day sitting near where you live. Usually it is on Sundays. You should go there and talk to the Assistant Teacher to clear your doubts. Doubts are also one of the five major hindrances, and you&amp;#039;re doing well for yourself to try to clear them here. However, a real teacher is the best person to seek for clearance of doubts. I will still try to resolve what I can as I have some decent experience in the same tradition. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) This is completely normal. Do not evaluate sensations. Do not develop a preference for any sensation. Do not even have an aversion for &amp;#034;blind spots&amp;#034; or areas where there are no sensations. As your mind becomes more equanimious more deeper things reveal themselves. Dont become irritated or create aversion, as it will make it last even longer and you may become little frustrated mentally. You&amp;#039;re practicing correctly, so keep going at it. If things become little rough, then do anapana or breathe little fast for a minute. When you scan, dont miss any part and stay at blind spots little longer. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) Dont evaluate sensations as this will only confuse you. You cannot get any &amp;#034;interpretation&amp;#034; from this other than ANNICA. As you make progress you will notice that when you are seeing sensations, your mind automatically goes into events of the past that have left a deep impression on your mind. When this happens, as soon as you realize mind has wandered, bring it back to the sensations. When you develop in equanimity, deeper knowledge/insight arises on its own. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) Exactly. Since you are a beginner, you should not complete 1 round (from crown to toe) faster than 3-5 mins. During free flow, do 1 full body sweep up and down and then again do part by part. Keep repeating this until there is free flow. Afterwards examine your spine to see if there are any blind spots and patiently work on those areas. Then again do part by part and sweep. If possible also try to do two parts at the same time such as two shoulders, then shoulder to elbow, then elbow to lower arm, then lower arm to wrist and finger tips and same with legs. Lastly, dont keep doing the same sequence again and again as it will become mechanical/boring. Keep making some changes in the sequence. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metta, &lt;br /&gt;SN</description> <pubDate>Sat, 26 Oct 2013 07:01:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4833871</guid> <dc:creator>Sweet Nothing</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-26T07:01:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Vipassana (Goenka): first experiences and some doubts</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4833382</link> <description>Hi all,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve finished my first 10-days Goenka&amp;#039;s Vipassana about 1 month ago. I&amp;#039;ve been practising, since then, every day (2 and even 3 hours/day). And I&amp;#039;m writing in order to have the advise of those more experiences on this technique because I have some doubts about my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m sorry if, for logic reasons, I don&amp;#039;t use the &amp;#034;technique&amp;#034; (Pali?) right words to express myself but I&amp;#039;m just a beginner.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Before exposing my doubts, I would like to tell you that I understand perfectly the idea of observing the sensations equanimously and I think that I apply it pretty much all the time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In general I think that for being a beginner and discovering this technique for the first time I manage to reach an acceptable level of concentration pretty fast (I don&amp;#039;t even need to start by anapana and I can start directly with body-scanning... some times being able to directly feel a free flow and sometimes needing to start by part-by-part scan). Sometimes I even manage to feel these kind of vibrations across a big part of my body at the same time (and sometimes even through my entire body at the same time!).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, here are my doubts:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Since the moment when I started practising Vipassana (3rd-4rd day) that I&amp;#039;m having &amp;#034;the same&amp;#034; (I know... I know... not the same but you know what I mean...) kind of solidified gross sensations in the same area of the body: always in my forehead, from my eyes upwards and covering even part of my head. Sometimes those sensations &amp;#034;appears&amp;#034; as soon as I close my eyes and start to get relaxed. The sensations changes from one time to the other even if they are located on the same region: sometimes a very solidified sensations, sometimes a kind of pulsation, but the most often they are like &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034; moving across my face and head. Even if I&amp;#039;m able to feel some vibrations underneath these &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034; or those gross sensations they stay always there and I&amp;#039;m able to feel it even if I&amp;#039;m continuing the scan and that I am observing my feet... those head sensations are still there. I don&amp;#039;t react on a particular way to them and I just continue my body-scan, I know also that ANICCA and that this will pass away but it&amp;#039;s been a while since these sensations are still there on almost every sitting. Sometimes even after finishing my sitting some of those sensations persists along the day... it&amp;#039;s annoying even if I try to just continue observing it even if I&amp;#039;m not meditating, but it&amp;#039;s difficult tonot feel the famous aversion or something similar when you have the same strange sensation on your face during the whole day. So, the question is: is it normal? did anyone experienced things like this? do you think that maybe there is something that I am not doing correctly? how long can a sensation last before &amp;#034;passing away&amp;#034;? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) The next question is also connected with the previous one and, even if I understand that the goal is to just observe and develop the equanimity, these sensations makes me wander if there is any kind of interpretation that we can do from those sensations depending on where they are located and the kind of sensation (pulsation, strong solidified, heat, &amp;#034;worms&amp;#034;, etc, etc).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) Regarding the &amp;#034;procedure&amp;#034;: if I understood properly the idea is that, even if you are able to feel the free flow all along the body, after 2 or 3 scans its advisable to come back to the part-by-part scan. Regarding the speed: when doing the free-flow, how fast should we scan the body? And also for the part-by-part... how many time should it take to scan the whole body?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thank you very much for your help!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With Metta,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;P.G.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 26 Oct 2013 01:53:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4833382</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo G R</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-26T01:53:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Can anyone clarify the 6R method?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4801932</link> <description>Thanks! It seems like the meditator has some freedom in what to pay attention to, which alarms my Goenka-trained sensibilities. B. V. does talk about proactively releasing tension and observing body and mind. I think I&amp;#039;ll try switching between noting (with 6R) and macroscopic body awareness (with 6R). Maybe later, when the mind is more calm, I&amp;#039;ll give EIS&amp;#039; full content awareness a shot.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 Oct 2013 13:58:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4801932</guid> <dc:creator>Erasmas II</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-12T13:58:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Can anyone clarify the 6R method?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4801087</link> <description>Hey, you might get an official answer in Bhante V&amp;#039;s yahoo group. As far as I know, you&amp;#039;re supposed to be able to spot the remaining tension left once you have already relaxed a tension triggered by a phenomena. Sister Khema gives a nice complementary explanation of the 6R &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammawheel&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;viewtopic&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;f&amp;#x3d;14&amp;#x26;t&amp;#x3d;10912&amp;#x26;start&amp;#x3d;60"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In my personal practice, I use the 6R more like a warm-up to be able to spot &amp;#034;gone moments&amp;#034; as described by Shinzen Young, so I&amp;#039;m not much of a help here. But if your in between distraction moments are long and you aren&amp;#039;t stepping into a kind of light jhana or Equanimity, perhaps you could try EIS advice to shake things (up) a little bit and look for more stuff to apply the 6R (in your case). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Practically-speaking, I would suggest this technique: sit and observe sensations in the body for awhile (as one has done previously), and then change one&amp;#039;s attitude towards discursive thoughts; any discursive thoughts that come up are now interesting, and instead of ignoring them or noting them, one should ask an interested question such as: &amp;#034;Why do I feel that way?&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;What do I think / how do I feel about that?&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;What does that remind me of?&amp;#034;, etc. as appropriate. As more discursive thoughts occur, simply keep following them with one investigatory question in mind or other, without censoring them. If you start having a &amp;#034;first-person&amp;#034; relationship towards them, that&amp;#039;s fine, but don&amp;#039;t let your awareness get too mucked up. Keep body sensations in awareness as much as is practical. After awhile (generally with stronger concentration, or after getting &amp;#034;deeper&amp;#034; into things) it may be possible to drop the interested questions, and merely have an interested attitude. I found it best to assume that the point of engagement with discursive thoughts is to bring subconscious material into consciousness, so according to that assumption, there&amp;#039;s no need to build any grand theories, or employ too much grand theorizing about what one &amp;#034;really&amp;#034; thinks, unless enough hidden material has been revealed to make some psychological truth or other about oneself blatantly obvious (and in this case, the grand theorizing may just be epiphenomenal to the therapeutic effect). &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;4222515"&gt;thread&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Welcome by the way!</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 Oct 2013 06:45:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4801087</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-12T06:45:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Can anyone clarify the 6R method?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4800586</link> <description>I just discovered Bhante Vimalaramsi and his sutta-based 6R practice. If anyone practices this actively, I&amp;#039;m wondering what one is actively &amp;#034;doing&amp;#034;, if anything, between distractions. I gather that one tries to relax. B. V. seems to emphasize that the suttas never say to be aware of breathing sensations, just to &amp;#034;understand&amp;#034; that breath is happening. &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;118&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;MN 118&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;He trains himself, &amp;#039;I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.&amp;#039;[2] He trains himself, &amp;#039;I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.&amp;#039; [4] He trains himself, &amp;#039;I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.&amp;#039;[3] He trains himself, &amp;#039;I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.&amp;#039;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this mean panoramic (body) awareness? What then constitutes a distraction? Obviously discursive thought, but what about when that&amp;#039;s not occurring? Having practiced Goenka scanning, I naturally start to &amp;#034;feel&amp;#034; parts of the body. Is specific attention a distraction?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I feel stupid having to ask these things but I want to practice effectively, and I can&amp;#039;t seem to figure out the best way to go forward.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;~j</description> <pubDate>Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:44:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4800586</guid> <dc:creator>Erasmas II</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-11T21:44:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Practise Note: Control</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4466755</link> <description>Im having difficulty grasping this. From an ultimate/practice perspective it makes sense. However, conventionally, is there control over action? Or is it just an awareness of an intention/sensation that is already arising and passing of its own conditions?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:18:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4466755</guid> <dc:creator>Drew Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-07-11T16:18:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Visualisation and Vipassana</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3783954</link> <description>My first response is, I think you&amp;#039;re probably not doing the technique wrong, to begin with. I think in &amp;#034;placing your awareness&amp;#034; on a particular body part, there is going to be some sort of spatial recognition going on in your brain, and can be confused with visualizing. You&amp;#039;re probably like me, a visual learner and perhaps this tendency to subtly visualize is more resonant with you than with some people, but I don&amp;#039;t think you&amp;#039;re doing the technique wrong. Try this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bring your awareness to your hand. See how that presents itself to your mind.&lt;br /&gt;Now visualize or imagine a hand, that&amp;#039;s not actually there at all, but you&amp;#039;re just creating it in your mind.&lt;br /&gt;Do you see how these two experiences are different?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, bring your awareness to your hand again, and notice the perception of awareness on your hand as you normally would (same thing as before).&lt;br /&gt;Now imagine or visualize that same hand (your hand) in your mind (i.e., what you think the hand looks like, the image of the hand).&lt;br /&gt;This is probably less gross of a fabrication than the first, but it probably still varies between just bringing your awareness to your hand.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you had no sense of where feeling was on your body, how would you be able to scan it, let alone function as a human?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You&amp;#039;re probably not doing the technique wrong. Just keep following the instructions and try to feel the feelings without any added bullshit. As in, just keep trying your best to feel, and not see, like you or anyone else would. Because like, what else can you do right? Nothing. Just keep practicing and do your best.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 03:07:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3783954</guid> <dc:creator>Brian K.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-12T03:07:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Visualisation and Vipassana</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3768918</link> <description>Hey bro, having sat a ten-day Goenka myself, I found myself facing similar questions. When I am experiencing sensations arising and passing away, it would often feel like bubbles popping and fizzing along my skin. As my meditation progressed and my focus would get more expansive and it would appear to me than everything around me was popping and fizzing. I would see the popping and fizzing right in front of my eyes. Eventually, states of consciousness would pop and bubble and fizz as well. Was this real, or imaginary? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At one point during one of my sits I felt like I could direct very high powered concentration out throughout the room towards the people sitting around me, to the point when I could be aware of their their subtle body shifts, breathing, and how well their sit was going psychologically, even their emotions. Was this real, or imaginary? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After a very powerful sit where I had very quickly hit High Equanimity I went outside and had a small insect land on me and for a moment I felt that I experienced it as a mass of sensation arising and passing away, bubbling and fizzing, and I had the insight that all things are just sensations which arise and pass away, and that we are connected by this. It was a very powerful moment/insight. Was this real, or imaginary? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After working my concentration up to second vipassana jhana or something like that it would feel like my &amp;#034;consciousness,&amp;#034; or perceiver or something like that, would recede into in the center of my skull, as if in a vast dark cave. Feeling this way was always how I knew my concentration was shifting. The first time this happened I felt like I was lifting or floating up into my head, I experienced a little bit of flashing lights, and I had some bliss. When in this state of concentration I would scan my body but I came to my face I would experience it as if from the inside, as if the surface of my face was floating a few inches in front of me and I could feel the sensations on the face as if from the inside. Aside from the palms of my hands I would often feel the most subtle and interesting sensations on/inside my face. Was this real, or imaginary? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My buddy came with me on the retreat and he later told me that at one point he felt his whole body was a mass of sensations/vibrations and he could cut through them all just like he was just wriggling pulsations and nothing more. Was this real, or imaginary? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The point is, who the fuck knows exactly what is &amp;#034;real&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;imaginary!&amp;#034; I was at no point trying to imagine or visualize, but these are how things presented themselves to me repeatedly. At a certain point I wanted to ask the teacher how to know whether what I was experiencing was real or imaginary and did it matter, but I didn&amp;#039;t ultimately ask because how could he know if they were real or not. This was what I was experiencing, and one should just note what you are experiencing. Weird or mystical experienced happen when meditating. They are all just sensations/phenomenon to be noted. After the A+P, stuff starts happening &amp;#034;too you,&amp;#034; and its not like you can control all this stuff. Your lack of control is kinda the point. Even when Dan talks about the &amp;#034;powers&amp;#034; in his book, or on the Buddhist Geeks podcast, he discusses the weird line between real and imaginary and how it is difficult to separate them. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I&amp;#039;d scan, say, my arms, I would often imagine I could see the arm, or the point of the arm where I was noting. I think this is quite normal. It is a byproduct of trying to rove your awareness all over the place. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My point is don&amp;#039;t get too weirded out over the divide, the line, the binary opposition between imaginary and the real, because once you get into these higher states it gets real blurry. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is a section from The Reformed Slacker&amp;#039;s Guide to Stream Entry by Tarin which may resonate here: &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;On that front, here&amp;#039;s something bizarre that, while it is not necessary to see &amp;#x2013; indeed, some people may simply never see it this way &amp;#x2013; I think may help some: understand that you can&amp;#039;t imagine a fruition, but don&amp;#039;t exclude the parts of your experience you think of as &amp;#039;imaginary&amp;#039; from practice. Indeed, there is something imaginary about all this. I have strong reservations saying this sort of stuff because it can be so easily misconstrued, but if you haven&amp;#039;t gotten path yet, a fruition is what you&amp;#039;re looking for, the entrance to a fruition arises out of the 4th vipassana jhana (equanimity regarding formations), and 4th jhana is hella imaginary. I personally thought I must be crazy thinking things like this until I noticed that a quite-realised Dharma friend of mine&amp;#039;s email address contains the phrase &amp;#039;imaginationrealization&amp;#039;. It sanks into place that very moment. I&amp;#039;m at a loss for a better way to explain what I mean and have considered removing this section entirely, but opted to include it for people who might benefit from having it addressed, however many or few there are. If this paragraph seems strange or irrelevant to you, just skip it over. Then again, if it strangely was just what you needed to hear.. there you are.&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:57:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3768918</guid> <dc:creator>Alan Smithee</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-12-07T17:57:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What is a kalapa, phenomenologically speaking?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3653202</link> <description>Thanks for the pointer. That thread was useful.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:12:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3653202</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-28T18:12:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What is a kalapa, phenomenologically speaking?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3651841</link> <description>Tj brocoli (done a bunch of Goenka retreats I believe) mentions kalapas here implying that they are mote conscious &amp;#034;particles&amp;#034; which arise and pass away instantly, forming all experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2325857#_19_message_2325857</description> <pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 06:47:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3651841</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-28T06:47:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What is a kalapa, phenomenologically speaking?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3651715</link> <description>I have been reading William Hart&amp;#039;s Goenka book, and he keeps bringing up this weird ontology about &amp;#034;kalapas&amp;#034; as subatomic particles. What kind of experiences do kalapas correspond to in actual meditation practice? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have been reading it because I&amp;#039;m going on a Goenka 10-day next month. Do kalapas come up in the course in any practical way?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anything else worth reading beforehand? Or doing, apart from the obvious meditation?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2012 04:58:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3651715</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-10-28T04:58:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475884</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The DhO is not just focused on &amp;#039;paths&amp;#039; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;yeah, I think there have been plenty of people here discussing things which don&amp;#039;t fit a &amp;#034;path&amp;#034; model.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:48:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475884</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-29T02:48:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475864</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it&amp;#039;s harmful. Those who &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;sincerely &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... &lt;strong&gt;that&amp;#039;s what an ego does, it strains.&lt;/strong&gt; Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different.... and that&amp;#039;s your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your comments sound more theoretical than pragmatic.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:45:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475864</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-29T02:45:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475850</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bruno Loff:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have found that eating a proper diet seems to be helping me significantly with my full body pains and discomforts that I experienced for about a year and a half, and which we briefly discussed on some occasion. It is too early to be sure, though, but you could try. The book I read was &amp;#034;It starts with food&amp;#034;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Bruno, I&amp;#039;ve done a lot of experiment with diet over the last 10 years. I didn&amp;#039;t find too much difference in terms of aches and pains. Right now, I&amp;#039;m pretty close to Paleo, which I think is what that book is about that you recommend. I also think exercise has been great. With exercise, I feel sore and sometimes injured... but I don&amp;#039;t feel any of the pain I used to feel, like backaches. Deadlifts work wonders!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bruno Loff:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Here is another example, a true story: a friend of mine once held a bucket of water with his arm stretched forward for one hour. By minute fourty he is experiencing extreme pain, and over the next twenty minutes he makes good note of his thoughts. As he told me, he thought that his PhD was a certain failure, that his current relationship had no hope, and eventually that his own existence was actually pointless, so that suicide would be a good way out. Of course, his actual problem was that he was holding all that weight with his arm outstreched; and yet his mental narratives were completely off the mark.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, absolutely. I&amp;#039;ve found similar results. Same with if I don&amp;#039;t get enough sleep.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:42:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3475850</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-29T02:42:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3438073</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Johnson:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, I&amp;#039;ve been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I&amp;#039;ve been crying most of the morning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Right now, I&amp;#039;m feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can really relate to this. From age 19-34 pretty much every decision I made was influenced by the restlessness, alienation, and confusion of post A+P dukkha. I have much less dukkha now, but man I would wish I could change those decisions (if I could be bothered to think about them).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know you&amp;#039;re on retreat now, so maybe that&amp;#039;s all over for you. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; But FWIW, I&amp;#039;ll share the advice that helped me through the Dark night, from Vincent Horn. He said, the dark night is like a Chinese finger trap. Don&amp;#039;t push too hard, or too little. [When I cut back on sitting time, my progress accelerated at that stage.] Also, note &amp;#034;allowing&amp;#034; when you observe unpleasant experiences. I found that soothing, and also it helps prevent using noting as a kind of resistance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;CCC:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You&amp;#039;re doing it wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(edit: dark knight, he he.)</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:50:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3438073</guid> <dc:creator>Some Guy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-17T02:50:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3437730</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Alexander Entelechy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;CCC&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with other stuff. There just doesn&amp;#039;t seem that much of a purpose discussing it here because to me the whole notion of a &amp;#039;path&amp;#039; is idiotic. The structure of this web-site and it&amp;#039;s purpose seems to be about following paths.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How do we then have PRODUCTIVE discussion on non-path inquiry? I&amp;#039;m not sure. Possibly by starting a non-path thread where we chuck out ideas? Is this forum even the right place for that? Daniel would presumably have to ok it. There&amp;#039;s no point in clogging up the place.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instead of ranting about there being a lack of discussions on what you wish to discuss and blaming the DhO structure as a whole, why not simply start a thread with the inquiries you wish to make? The DhO is not just focused on &amp;#039;paths&amp;#039; or what I would call perceptual baseline shifts, which as far as I am concerned lead to a more pliant and malleable mind, and with a more pliant and malleable mind, one can focus on &amp;#039;non-path&amp;#039; notions with much more ease and less or no frustration. One&amp;#039;s own projection of what is presumably perceived is often the only thing being reacted to. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Start a thread. It would be more productive and beneficial than ranting about one&amp;#039;s own projection. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit: If you are wondering where to post a thread in the correct sub-forum heading, just post it where it is closer to being related to the subforum heading. If it is deemed the wrong sub-forum heading by DhO moderators, the thread will simply be moved for convenience of all to another sub-forum heading which is deemed more appropriate. If there are no sub-forum headings that relate to the thread, then the creation of a new sub-forum could be discussed and made for the new line of inquiry. And you might want to define &amp;#039;non-path&amp;#039; before such a discussion takes place. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 22:38:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3437730</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T22:38:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3436438</link> <description>CCC&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with other stuff. There just doesn&amp;#039;t seem that much of a purpose discussing it here because to me the whole notion of a &amp;#039;path&amp;#039; is idiotic. The structure of this web-site and it&amp;#039;s purpose seems to be about following paths.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How do we then have PRODUCTIVE discussion on non-path inquiry? I&amp;#039;m not sure. Possibly by starting a non-path thread where we chuck out ideas? Is this forum even the right place for that? Daniel would presumably have to ok it. There&amp;#039;s no point in clogging up the place.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:37:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3436438</guid> <dc:creator>Alexander Entelechy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T17:37:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435387</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve definitely got my issues in terms of prejudices and filters. They&amp;#039;re probably fairly obvious to others. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One would be &amp;#034;why does no one listen to poor old CCC? Does what he say not matter? Poor CCC!&amp;#034; Victim filter. Thanks for the reminder, it needs work.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:57:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435387</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T09:57:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435375</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Base?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m just a person, same as you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;base=filter=coloured lenses= prejudices =views=conditioning factors= previously self-evaluated experiences etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus the question mark.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit: Where is a good example of what you seem to have a problem with? I don&amp;#039;t recall any threads that were purely &amp;#039;scholarly&amp;#039; and without any practical value. it would be good to back up such views of the DhO with some links to examples. Then readers can avoid projecting the wrong idea onto what you may be ranting about.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:53:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435375</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T09:53:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435356</link> <description>Base?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m just a person, same as you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I recognize and appreciate scholarship when it&amp;#039;s used in the right way. But when it&amp;#039;s used as a way of propping up the ego and avoiding what really matters, the forum disintegrates into something useless.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:45:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435356</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T09:45:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435253</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Nik you&amp;#039;re pointing out that &lt;em&gt;I should also&lt;/em&gt; stop resisting things that aren&amp;#039;t right. But as I was writing I felt quite in tune with the present moment. I attribute this to the fact that I was being fully congruent with what I believe... so it just flowed.... or it felt like it flowed to me. That&amp;#039;s natural. I don&amp;#039;t look for ways to be offensive or hurtful. If people are offended, it would be best to speak up or put me on ignore. The intention is just to be a bit more true to myself than I was yesterday. I think that comes through in the way i write.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just checking what sort of base is in place.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:41:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435253</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T09:41:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435221</link> <description>Nik you&amp;#039;re pointing out that &lt;em&gt;I should also&lt;/em&gt; stop resisting things that aren&amp;#039;t right. But as I was writing I felt quite in tune with the present moment. I attribute this to the fact that I was being fully congruent with what I believe... so it just flowed.... or it felt like it flowed to me. That&amp;#039;s natural. I don&amp;#039;t look for ways to be offensive or hurtful. If people are offended, it would be best to speak up or put me on ignore. The intention is just to be a bit more true to myself than I was yesterday. I think that comes through in the way i write.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I had a website and book and someone was saying &amp;#034;no it&amp;#039;s not right, forget it&amp;#034;, I&amp;#039;d be quite annoyed. Sometimes I wish Daniel would say &amp;#034;CCC shut up you&amp;#039;re annoying me&amp;#034;, because then it&amp;#039;s real, the anger is not squashed in the name of &amp;#034;right action&amp;#034;. Being nice when you feel like telling someone off is unnatural, and being unnatural, bad for your health and state of mind. I&amp;#039;m not advocating shouting matches, just realness and congruence. More peace comes from that. Peace is good. peace comes from acting naturally, IMO.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:28:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3435221</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T09:28:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434861</link> <description>I have found that eating a proper diet seems to be helping me significantly with my full body pains and discomforts that I experienced for about a year and a half, and which we briefly discussed on some occasion. It is too early to be sure, though, but you could try. The book I read was &amp;#034;It starts with food&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The diet is designed, among other things, to reduce the system-wide inflammation that modern diets sometimes cause. I thought that inflammation might have something to do with it by noticing that my painful symptoms were much improved on those occasions I took a strong anti-inflamatory drug such as nimesulide.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems to be working, in that my full-body pain has disappeared. There is still, however, some pain in my back, so who knows. Also this could simply be placebo, in which case I expect it will return within a number of months.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;---&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a comment to make on Claudiu&amp;#039;s advice, as he has suggested something similar to me in the past (that my full-body pain and discomfort were the result of MCTB-style meditation).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think you could just stop seeking that and go back to a normal life. The desire is too great. So there are two expedient solutions, as far as I can tell. One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen. With spiritually-related matters, I think it&amp;#039;s simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it. Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is the problem: If I am in pain, and I decide to introspectively look for &amp;#034;that&amp;#034; reason which is the cause, it is very likely that &amp;#034;this or that&amp;#034; will surface, together with some mental narrative about how &amp;#034;this or that&amp;#034; has caused my unhappiness, along with more mental narration of how I (or &amp;#034;I&amp;#034;) can work with it, and so on. This approach seems to work for a while, things get better, but within a few weeks I am again in pain, and looking for some other &amp;#034;that.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nowadays I think that the very act of searching for an &amp;#034;explanation&amp;#034; in order to deal with pain is a very delicate and dubious process. It is very easy to start fabricating stuff on this layer of the mind, particularly so if I am in pain and I have a visceral need to believe that I understand why. For instance, a &amp;#034;childhood memory&amp;#034; might come up that was sad (e.g. the separation from a childhood boy friend), together with some narrative about how that explains my current conditioning (respectively that I am gay/bissexual). Yet it is quite possible, even likely, that part of those memories are fabricated, and that the explanation is, if not bogus, at least highly superficial (actually I am gay/bi for much more complicated reasons).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The truth is, now that my pain has subsided enough, apparently because I changed my diet, I no longer think about searching for mystical all-encompassing &amp;#034;that&amp;#034;s. And this is what makes me think that such &amp;#034;that&amp;#034;s are simply the product of being in pain, rather than legitimate explanations for that pain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is not to say that your pain doesn&amp;#039;t have causes and that these causes can not be addressed: I think it does and they can. But I would recommend being extra careful, systematic and scientific in finding those causes, because the likelihood of inventing some &amp;#034;made up cause,&amp;#034; when under the influence of pain, is quite high.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is another example, a true story: a friend of mine once held a bucket of water with his arm stretched forward for one hour. By minute fourty he is experiencing extreme pain, and over the next twenty minutes he makes good note of his thoughts. As he told me, he thought that his PhD was a certain failure, that his current relationship had no hope, and eventually that his own existence was actually pointless, so that suicide would be a good way out. Of course, his actual problem was that he was holding all that weight with his arm outstreched; and yet his mental narratives were completely off the mark.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The &amp;#034;finding of reasons&amp;#034; is really a tricky business.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 07:05:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434861</guid> <dc:creator>Bruno Loff</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T07:05:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434722</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it&amp;#039;s harmful. Those who &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;sincerely &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... &lt;strong&gt;that&amp;#039;s what an ego does, it strains.&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;strong&gt;Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different&lt;/strong&gt;.... and that&amp;#039;s your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;victoriadesiree&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;wp-content&amp;#x2f;uploads&amp;#x2f;2008&amp;#x2f;10&amp;#x2f;equals-300x275&amp;#x2e;gif" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Instead, the Dho is about keeping alive a useless ancient language, which makes the whole thing sound so elite and wonderful. Why use your native language when you can speak in an ancient foreign language? Why say &amp;#034;breath awareness&amp;#034; when you can say &amp;#034;Anapanasati&amp;#034;.... Anapanasati is so much more ... oh I don&amp;#039;t know.... classy! Yes it&amp;#039;s a classy spiritual word I like to use. I feel like I&amp;#039;m in my Californian yoga class, pretending to be a highly evolved meta-Indian. My nose is tilted slightly upwards and my head is held very still. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good basic instructions are so easy to find, but instead you want highly intellectual &lt;strong&gt;debate&lt;/strong&gt;, don&amp;#039;t you? You want highly intellectual &lt;strong&gt;debate&lt;/strong&gt; in an ancient foreign language. That&amp;#039;s what you want. And that&amp;#039;s what you have on the Dharma Overground!! And it will continue this way for the next millenium... give or take. Those safron robe wearing wankers are dead!!!! &lt;strong&gt;Let them go! &lt;/strong&gt; This is life right here, now. &lt;strong&gt;Stop resisting it.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If anyone is interested in good teachings, good instruction, message me. I&amp;#039;m doing it this way because I&amp;#039;m fascinated (?) to know how many messages I get, if any.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;upload&amp;#x2e;wikimedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wikipedia&amp;#x2f;commons&amp;#x2f;3&amp;#x2f;33&amp;#x2f;White_square_with_question_mark&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 05:37:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434722</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T05:37:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434462</link> <description>I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it&amp;#039;s harmful. Those who &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;sincerely &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... &lt;strong&gt;that&amp;#039;s what an ego does, it strains.&lt;/strong&gt; Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different.... and that&amp;#039;s your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instead, the Dho is about keeping alive a useless ancient language, which makes the whole thing sound so elite and wonderful. Why use your native language when you can speak in an ancient foreign language? Why say &amp;#034;breath awareness&amp;#034; when you can say &amp;#034;Anapanasati&amp;#034;.... Anapanasati is so much more ... oh I don&amp;#039;t know.... classy! Yes it&amp;#039;s a classy spiritual word I like to use. I feel like I&amp;#039;m in my Californian yoga class, pretending to be a highly evolved !Indian. My nose is tilted slightly upwards and my head is held very still. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good basic instructions are so easy to find, but instead you want highly intellectual debate, don&amp;#039;t you? You want highly intellectual debate in an ancient foreign language. That&amp;#039;s what you want. And that&amp;#039;s what you have on the Dharma Overground!! And it will continue this way for the next millenium... give or take. Those safron robe wearing wankers are dead!!!! Let them go! This is life right here, now. Stop resisting it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If anyone is interested in good teachings, good instruction, message me. I&amp;#039;m doing it this way because I&amp;#039;m fascinated to know how many messages I get, if any.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 01:09:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3434462</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-16T01:09:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3433675</link> <description>I think if you don&amp;#039;t encounter Dark Night material, your meditation hasn&amp;#039;t really begun. Fear/anger/misery/disgust about dissolution is always there, we just hide it from ourselves.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 21:27:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3433675</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T21:27:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3433368</link> <description>Thanks Beoman for the potentially dissenting opinion. All opinions are welcome.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve certainly considered that the meditation I&amp;#039;m doing won&amp;#039;t cure my problems. Although I haven&amp;#039;t been doing the same meditation for 13 years. I&amp;#039;ve only really been practicing Vipassana for about 3 years. So, why am I still dedicated to the path?... well, because I&amp;#039;ve thought a lot about what you suggest (what was that thing that happened 13 years ago). And, as far as I can tell, it was awakening. There is somehow a difference between unconscious experience and awake experience. And, the way it occurs to me is that there are sensations of experience, feelings, thoughts, habit patterns, etc. which arise and pass, often habitually, often compulsively. The practice, as I see it, is one of turning the attention over and over again to what is happening right now in this moment. And, by doing it over and over, it builds a momentum that the attention naturally starts to trend toward the experience right now in this moment. And, with an open attention of present moment experience, things are discovered which were never discovered before. There is awakening. There is discovery. There is wisdom. There is the shedding of delusions and illusions. Just seeing things as they are for what they are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is something about that process which appeals to me. I don&amp;#039;t totally know how it relates back to ordinary life. In some ways, it seems to stir up Dark Night stuff. In some ways, it seems to bring freedom and clarity. I feel fortunate, that after 13 years, the process of turning attention to the sensations of present moment experience is starting to become more accessible to me in every moment. And, this is why I am still dedicated to the practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am not much dedicated to any path right now. This just seems to be a practice which brings about a result which I am starting to gain a small amount of mastery over. It may be that this practice doesn&amp;#039;t lead down a path to any resolution of my difficulties, but I can be pretty sure that it leads down a path of more clarity, awareness, understanding, insight, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s interesting to hear your experience with the Dark Night continuing through third path. Although, if by &amp;#034;OK,&amp;#034; you mean less unconsciously reactive, and less prone to perpetuate your misery, then I think being &amp;#034;OK&amp;#034; with horrible stuff is an improvement beyond being reactive toward horrible stuff. Certainly it would be preferable not to have the horrible stuff happen at all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why do non-meditators not experience the Dark Night? I don&amp;#039;t know. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can&amp;#039;t say that I meditate because of a desire to get out of the Dark Night. At least, not these days. I would prefer if that would happen, but it&amp;#039;s not my main motivation. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as I can tell, this is the best way to have it happen that I know of so far.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;With spiritually-related matters, I think it&amp;#039;s simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m glad that seems simple to you. For me, it is simpler said than done.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hmm... interesting practice idea. I&amp;#039;m not sure I really understand how to do that, however.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;it&amp;#039;s easy to revert back to the non-surrendering ways thus continuing to have painful dark nights.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, why is this so easy? (or rather, why is it hard not too?) And, what to do about it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Good luck either way,&lt;br /&gt;- Claudiu&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I will say also that I have also thoroughly enjoyed actualism practice. I never really had much success with HAEITMOBA, but just practicing attentiveness and sensuousness, along with the investigation of emotions and identity, and intent to be happy and harmless was extremely useful. I probably could stop meditating and doing actualist practice exclusively, but there is something about this meditation practice which seems to be working, so I guess I want to apply it some more and see where it leads. So far, it is difficult to discern all the subtleties of the differences between the two practices and what results they lead to. It seems to me that they can work synergistically, though I&amp;#039;m not sure for now.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:31:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3433368</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T17:31:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432777</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Adam . .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Beo, what do you mean by &amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;&amp;#034;?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By &amp;#034;that&amp;#034; I meant &amp;#034;what was it that happened those 13+ years ago that caused you to start looking?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example: after my A&amp;amp;P experience, I knew that I wanted to be enlightened. I didn&amp;#039;t know what enlightenment was, but that&amp;#039;s what I was looking for. I didn&amp;#039;t really think of it in terms of &amp;#034;what was it that I saw that I now wanted&amp;#034;, but maybe I would have if someone had asked me.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:49:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432777</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T15:49:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432761</link> <description>Beo, what do you mean by &amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;&amp;#034;?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:42:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432761</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T15:42:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432635</link> <description>Hey Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I figure I&amp;#039;d offer a potentially dissenting opinion. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Johnson:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, I&amp;#039;ve been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I&amp;#039;ve been crying most of the morning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Right now, I&amp;#039;m feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Have you considered that the meditation you are doing isn&amp;#039;t the thing that will cure your problems? 13+ years is a pretty long time for something to not work. Why are you still dedicated to the path if that&amp;#039;s the case? Maybe it&amp;#039;s not that you are bad at following the path but rather that the path itself doesn&amp;#039;t work?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as I can tell, it&amp;#039;s this MCTB style of meditation that actually causes, or at the very least severely aggravates, the Dark Night. In my experience, anyway, though Dark Night-like things had been happening before I came across MCTB, those things really started kicking in in massive amounts after getting on-board with MCTB. MCTB stream entry did not stop the dark night. My experience was awesome and very interesting for a few weeks, and then dark night started coming up again. MCTB 2nd path did not stop the dark night... nor 3rd.. and I never claimed 4th, but from what I understand by reading others&amp;#039; reports, MCTB 4th path does not stop the dark night either. Rather, what seems to happen the more you meditate in this way is that you get better and better at being OK with these horrible things that are happening during the dark night... so much so that they don&amp;#039;t seem all that horrible, anymore. And indeed, I found an amazing resilience of mind in myself, after getting some path-moments, in that all sorts of horrible things could happen and I&amp;#039;d still be OK.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But still, that raises the question - why cause horrible things to happen, and then get better at being OK with them, instead of simply not having the horrible things happen in the first place? I will point out that non-meditators do not experience these symptoms. They definitely have other problems, but not these particular dark-night-related ones. Why is that?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll offer my take on it. It&amp;#039;s not that meditation causes the dark night, per se, but rather it&amp;#039;s that intense seeking, that looking for something, and in the process of trying to find it, all these horrible things happen. You probably have a strong desire to get out of the dark night, but that can&amp;#039;t be the reason you started looking in the first place, because the dark night didn&amp;#039;t happen in the first place. So try asking yourself: what was it that happened those 13+ years ago that caused you to start looking? Did you see a glimpse of something? What set you on this path? I think it is your desire to find &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; conflicting with your desire for other things that is causing your dark night. In the process of trying to find &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;, you find parts of yourself that are resisting that, and you get tangled up in quite the knot.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think you could just stop seeking that and go back to a normal life. The desire is too great. So there are two expedient solutions, as far as I can tell. One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen. With spiritually-related matters, I think it&amp;#039;s simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it. Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The other solution would be to find something better than that which you are currently looking for, and redirect all your efforts into finding and experiencing that, instead. If you really do find something better, you will naturally stop seeking the other thing, and thus naturally stop meditating, and thus your dark night symptoms (being caused by the seeking/meditating) will subside. This obviously entails that the thing you switch to is not the same sort of thing, otherwise you will be seeking the same thing anyway and nothing will change.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or you can keep meditating as you have been until you are so fed up with it that you naturally transition into the first solution, anyway. This seems to be what happens with MCTB style meditation anyway, except it&amp;#039;s not obvious due to the technique and it&amp;#039;s easy to revert back to the non-surrendering ways thus continuing to have painful dark nights.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck either way,&lt;br /&gt;- Claudiu</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:08:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432635</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T15:08:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432520</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Pål S.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Do you ever get into states that have little or no self/duality? Do you ever get into states where you reflect: &amp;#034;this is probably what experience is like further down the line&amp;#034;? Can you replicate those experiences? When meditating/contemplating do you ever feel like you hit something &amp;#039;too close to home&amp;#039;, meeting yourself in the door, feeling threatened, etc?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey Pal, thanks for the comments. I don&amp;#039;t know how to answer these questions right now. I think maybe it&amp;#039;s my current mindstate that makes it difficult to answer. Right now, I want to say &amp;#034;no&amp;#034; to all the questions. &lt;br /&gt;1. I don&amp;#039;t know what self/duality is and don&amp;#039;t know how to recognize when there is more or less of it.&lt;br /&gt;2. I reflect all sorts of thoughts about the mindstates I get into. But, right now I can&amp;#039;t say that I have any idea what life will be like &amp;#034;further down the line.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;3. I think I have been able to replicate some mindstates somewhat. &lt;br /&gt;4. I&amp;#039;ve had all sorts of experiences of hitting things and meeting things and feeling threatened. None of them stand out as significant or anything like that right now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, to get more direct to the point. I don&amp;#039;t think I&amp;#039;ve ever had an experience of what stream entry would be like or any mindstate which seems more close or far from it. I speculate about it, of course, but the speculation seems to lead nowhere.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:25:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432520</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T14:25:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432257</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Johnson:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, I&amp;#039;ve been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I&amp;#039;ve been crying most of the morning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Right now, I&amp;#039;m feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d especially appreciate any thoughts from any of the people who have given me help here on this board before (Daniel, Nik, Trent, Bruno, Stephanie, etc.)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I found the only thing that worked for me when dragging my ego through the dark night (unknowingly creating it for my self) was to note all the symptoms non-stop for an hour sit at a time. I never did any concentration activities during those periods due to not having enough pliancy of mind due to the shitty sensations that were plaguing &amp;#039;me&amp;#039;. Choiceless noting was the only approach that stopped the mind lunging again and again onto the sensations to trigger all sorts of screwed up woe is me mind states. I would note quite quickly using only a small number of labels:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Vibrations&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;sensations&amp;#039; for any sensation along with the tone, i.e. pleasant, unpleasant, neutral&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Image&amp;#039; for any images whatsoever in the mind&amp;#039;s eye&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Seeing&amp;#039; when the eye sight took centre stage.&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Hearing&amp;#039; when a sound took centre stage.&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Thought&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;thinking&amp;#039; for any thought regardless of content if it took centre stage&lt;br /&gt;* &amp;#039;Desire&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;wanting or &amp;#039;aversion&amp;#039; for any strong moments of push and pull.&lt;br /&gt;* AND any sense of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;me-ness&amp;#039; was NOT noted as &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; but simply broken down into exactly what was compounding to give off that impression i.e. image, vibrations/sensations, thought&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; And that is about it. That is how simple it got during periods of shittyness. About 3 notes per second non-stop. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;E.g.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Vibrations, vibrations, unpleasant, unpleasant, vibrations (suddenly a sound would take centre stage), hearing, hearing, (then vibrations) vibrations, sensations, unpleasant, unpleasant, neutral, unpleasant, vibrations (then sight would take centre stage regardless of the seen object), seeing, seeing, seeing, wanting, aversion, unpleasant, unpleasant, vibrations, vibrations, seeing, hearing, hearing, vibrations, wanting, wanting, aversion, aversion, unpleasant, wanting, hearing, vibrations, hearing, hearing, image, image, image, vibrations, neutral, neutral, vibrations......(and if suddenly the mind spaced out and the lack of an ability to remember noting labels occured)....spacing out, spacing out, confusion, confusion, vibrations, pleasant, pleasant, vibrations, hearing, hearing, seeing, image, image etc. etc. And so on and on. These terms would sum up the whole dark night shifting and changing and led to a malleable and pliant mind being cultivated regardless of how unpleasant or pleasant it became. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Break up the compounding of &amp;#039;depression&amp;#039; and the concept of &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039; into smaller more manageable &amp;#039;pieces&amp;#039; (the labels mentioned). Break it down continuously into the factors of mind and body that make up such compositions/fabrications of mind (depression and any other &amp;#039;mind state&amp;#039; with a name). This will give the mind back more control over how much it gets sucked up in the fabricating tendencies. Break up those fabrications non-stop for an hour at a time. Make a resolution beforehand to just go at it and note it all non-stop. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would do this knowing I would hit a wall occasionally with a major desire to get up and not practice this way, go play video games instead, something, anything to distract from the depressive feelings. But when i resolved to stick it out for an hour at a time, I hit those walls differently. And on the other side I would often more than not be noting the break up of unpleasantness and the arising of pleasantness and neutral and 11th nana spacing out. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Break down the compounding madness into manageable &amp;#039;parts&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:14:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3432257</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T12:14:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3431946</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Johnson:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I suppose this might be true if stream entry was my top priority. Although, even still, it is impossible for me to know if the effort was &amp;#034;wasted&amp;#034; because there is no way to know how close or far I am from this destination stream entry. So, it is also impossible for me to know if I am closer or farther from it from each effort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is weird... Do you ever get into states that have little or no self/duality? Do you ever get into states where you reflect: &amp;#034;this is probably what experience is like further down the line&amp;#034;? Can you replicate those experiences? When meditating/contemplating do you ever feel like you hit something &amp;#039;too close to home&amp;#039;, meeting yourself in the door, feeling threatened, etc?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:49:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3431946</guid> <dc:creator>Pål S.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-15T08:49:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3430444</link> <description>So, I&amp;#039;ve been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I&amp;#039;ve been crying most of the morning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Right now, I&amp;#039;m feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d especially appreciate any thoughts from any of the people who have given me help here on this board before (Daniel, Nik, Trent, Bruno, Stephanie, etc.)</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:35:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3430444</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T21:35:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3430104</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Getting into a relaxed and open state quickly (alpha) can be done with *space awareness* techniques. I&amp;#039;m assuming you then take that alpha state and expand it into delta and theta, hopefully without falling asleep. The benefit is the speed and ease. Vipassana is described by Fehmi and colleagues as a narrow focus, which is likely to increase arousal and energy expenditure... the opposite of what&amp;#039;s desired.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wow, just looked up that book and it seems pretty great. Another angle at the whole Equanimity thing (it seems that their Open Focus is some version of MCTB Equanimity). Note though that Vipassana is not always narrow focus - it starts with narrow focus and widens as you go up the ñanas from A&amp;amp;P, until it encompasses more or less everything. The goal mind states that Vipassana is intended to create are wide focus - narrow focus stuff is just part of the journey there. The effectiveness of the Vipassana approach as compared to the Open Focus approach is of course open to debate, but intuitively it seems like the narrow focus stuff serves to strengthen your attention so you don&amp;#039;t get stuck in very low-quality Equanimity (which is probably all that Open Focus guided sessions would give you).</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:43:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3430104</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T20:43:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3429641</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;fivebells .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I assumed the &amp;#034;it&amp;#034; in &amp;#034;going for it&amp;#034; was stream entry. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh gotcha. Well, I guess I would like to go for stream entry if I knew how or what to do to go for &amp;#034;it.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, yeah, the original title was just a general &amp;#034;it&amp;#034; in the sense of going for the gold, or going for the gusto of it or something.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:34:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3429641</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T19:34:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3429632</link> <description>I assumed the &amp;#034;it&amp;#034; in &amp;#034;going for it&amp;#034; was stream entry. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hope your retreat is peaceful and productive and you find what you&amp;#039;re looking for there.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:30:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3429632</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T19:30:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427526</link> <description>some abstracts here: http://www.princetonbiofeedback.com/resources/publications/ &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can&amp;#039;t find the research on comparing narrow versus open attention, but it&amp;#039;s in his book. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some background might help with searching: &lt;br /&gt;A pioneer in the field of neurofeedback, Les Fehmi, PhD, BCIA-EEG, is director of the Princeton Biofeedback Centre in Princeton, New Jersey. He holds an MA and PhD in psychology from UCLA and completed his post-doctoral fellowship at UCLA’s Brain Research Institute. An affiliate member of the Department of Medicine at Princeton University Medical Center, over the past four decades Dr. Fehmi has been active as a psychologist in private practice, a speaker, and an author in peer-reviewed journals. A certified “speed-and-explosion specialist,” Dr. Fehmi has worked with the Dallas Cowboys, the New Jersey Nets, and the Olympic Development Committee. He has also served as a consultant for Harvard’s Massachusetts General Hospital, the Johnson &amp;amp; Johnson corporation, and the Veterans Administration.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 05:03:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427526</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T05:03:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427255</link> <description>Thanks, I&amp;#039;ll do some of my own digging when I get a chance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Brian.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:48:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427255</guid> <dc:creator>Brian Eleven</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T02:48:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427224</link> <description>Brian,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Getting into a relaxed and open state quickly (alpha) can be done with *space awareness* techniques. I&amp;#039;m assuming you then take that alpha state and expand it into delta and theta, hopefully without falling asleep. The benefit is the speed and ease. Vipassana is described by Fehmi and colleagues as a narrow focus, which is likely to increase arousal and energy expenditure... the opposite of what&amp;#039;s desired.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Got to go to work now. I&amp;#039;ll have a look for some references later today.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:32:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427224</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T02:32:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427203</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;C C C:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; Remember Einstein&amp;#039;s quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? There&amp;#039;s every reason to expect another wasted effort if you do noting again this time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I suppose this might be true if stream entry was my top priority. Although, even still, it is impossible for me to know if the effort was &amp;#034;wasted&amp;#034; because there is no way to know how close or far I am from this destination stream entry. So, it is also impossible for me to know if I am closer or farther from it from each effort.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At any rate, stream entry is just a secondary goal at this point. Mostly because I have no way of knowing where I am, how to get there, or what it is. I may know this after it happens but until then, I will just keep doing my work and if it happens, it happens.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I might say instead is a top priority is the end of delusion, and for that purpose, I find the noticing practice to work very well. I keep turning my attention to notice the experience of this present moment, and as I do, I gain insight into what this experience is. The delusions of solidity, permanence, satisfactoriness, and perhaps most importantly, self... these delusions are seen through like turning on a light switch in a dark room. The awareness of moment to moment phenomena becomes more subtle and more inclusive. And, somehow in this process comes freedom, and a lessening of suffering. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If there was some way to &amp;#034;go for stream entry,&amp;#034; I think I would do it. If you&amp;#039;ve read my posts, I&amp;#039;ve tried it many times, with many hundreds of hours of practice, and with many different techniques. I am no closer to knowing how to &amp;#034;go for stream entry&amp;#034; than I was when I started.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I think I have seen in my practice is that the noticing/noting practice I&amp;#039;ve used is slightly better than the Goenka technique simply because it is more inclusive of thoughts, emotions, etc. Therefore, there are fewer unconscious moments. I can&amp;#039;t think of anything that would lead more directly to insight than bare moment-to-moment awareness of the four foundations of experience (body and mind). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nonetheless, this is just my current understanding, and I still appreciate the suggestions.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:26:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427203</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T02:26:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427194</link> <description>C C C&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Could you explain why experiencing alpha brainwaves lead to awakening more quickly then other types of brainwaves. I&amp;#039;m aware that different types of brainwaves exist, but not in depth regarding the differences. I&amp;#039;m just curious why this type is beneficial. I agree with your assessment that &amp;#034;space&amp;#034; is beneficial with regards to meditation, but just assumed it was a personal preference. I took a look at the link quickly but didn&amp;#039;t see anything about alpha waves. Any links would be great, serious studies would be even better. Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metta,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Brian.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:14:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427194</guid> <dc:creator>Brian Eleven</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T02:14:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427088</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;fivebells .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Regard the experience of the present moment as if it were part of a dream. (Regarding it as if it were part of someone else&amp;#039;s dream can help, too.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Whatever the current object of attention is, switch back and forth between the experience of the bare sensations from which the object is construed, and the experience of the object itself.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Whatever the object of attention is, switch back and forth between attending to it and to the space around the object.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(There were actually five practices, but some of them blended into one another, and I can&amp;#039;t remember the exact distinctions, now.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is also holding the question &amp;#034;What is experiencing this?&amp;#034; or the Bahiya practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d second this. Don&amp;#039;t force something that&amp;#039;s not the right fit for you. Remember Einstein&amp;#039;s quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? There&amp;#039;s every reason to expect another wasted effort if you do noting again this time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also have a look at Richard Rose&amp;#039;s descriptions in Albigen Papers, viz &amp;#034;become conscious of consciousness, be aware of your awareness, pay attention to the thing attending..&amp;#034; and so on.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The concept of *space* has been shown to be more effective than a heap of other techniques at generating alpha brain waves in experiments (see http://www.wisdompage.com/FehmiBook.html). Vipassana noting was shown to be quite poor by comparison.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:04:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3427088</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-14T01:04:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3425798</link> <description>If noting the 3C&amp;#039;s of the present moment&amp;#039;s experience isn&amp;#039;t leading to cessation despite solid effort at it, there are other approaches which might be worth trying. I have nothing against noting, it&amp;#039;s a sensible approach. It&amp;#039;s just that different people sometimes need a push from a slightly different direction, and it&amp;#039;s worth experimenting a bit if things don&amp;#039;t seem to be shifting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All of them should be practiced at least at first for brief periods and always after establishing a stable base of attention with a shamatha meditation. Back off from them if awareness of the present moment starts to fade, and re-establish shamatha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The last retreat I was on, people worked with the following meditations&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Regard the experience of the present moment as if it were part of a dream. (Regarding it as if it were part of someone else&amp;#039;s dream can help, too.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Whatever the current object of attention is, switch back and forth between the experience of the bare sensations from which the object is construed, and the experience of the object itself.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Whatever the object of attention is, switch back and forth between attending to it and to the space around the object.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(There were actually five practices, but some of them blended into one another, and I can&amp;#039;t remember the exact distinctions, now.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is also holding the question &amp;#034;What is experiencing this?&amp;#034; or the Bahiya practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Again, not recommending any of these over noting the 3C&amp;#039;s. Other things being equal, noting is probably the most direct approach. But for a variety of reasons, sometimes the direct approach is not the most effective.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 17:24:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3425798</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-13T17:24:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Going for it another time...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3425758</link> <description>On Wednesday, I&amp;#039;m off on another ten-day retreat. It&amp;#039;s been almost six months since my last retreat, which is the longest break I&amp;#039;ve taken from retreats in the last few years.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m planning to do morning-to-night full intention noting of everything that arises in this field of experience. This technique seems to me to be the most effective for insight for me. However, I keep the emphasis on noticing present moment experience with as much detail and inclusiveness as possible, and I under-emphasize the actual verbal &amp;#034;note.&amp;#034; So, at times, when the mind is just not working well with the notes, I go for a quieter general observation noticing of experience from moment to moment to moment. It is a direct looking at present moment experience and seeing the 3Cs in the dynamic changing flow of experience, with nothing left out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After my last retreat, there were some very significant shifts in my practice, in my psychology, and in my day to day life. As a result, I think my meditation work should be pretty skillful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have yet to attain stream entry, and I don&amp;#039;t know if I ever will. Noticing/noting practice brings great results, but for whatever reason it hasn&amp;#039;t yet brought about any entrance to any stream.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I did probably about 10 hours of meditation over the last week, and this week I hope to ramp it up even more to build some good momentum going into the retreat. I&amp;#039;d like to get maybe 3-4 hours in tomorrow.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think I pretty much understand what to do for best results, but I am still totally open to any advice or tips going into the retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- Daniel</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:46:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3425758</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-13T16:46:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: notes from Goenka Satipatthana course</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3135532</link> <description>I also like the Satipatthana courses because the participants are more serious (less noise), Goenka speaks much less during the meditation periods, and the discourses are interesting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s the summary of the discourses, Bagpuss.&lt;br /&gt;http://www.vridhamma.org/Discourses-on-Satipatthana-Sutta&lt;br /&gt;In short: No other technique at all, the teacher on my course actually kept reminding people that the practice is the same and not to practice according to other sections of the sutta.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 19:53:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3135532</guid> <dc:creator>Yadid dee</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-12T19:53:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: notes from Goenka Satipatthana course</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3135441</link> <description>John thanks for posting this! I almost posted asking if anyone could comment on the Satipatthana course a few weeks back...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;At one point early in the course, while in the meditation cell, there was pivotal moment when it felt as if the entire surface of my body sort of caught fire, all at once it started buzzing in an exaggerated way. From then on it felt like I was protected by a forcefield or something, and it remained for the remainder of the course. And this was very easy to keep track of, because there was very very loud construction going on just outside the meditation cells, which had been disturbing until this moment. By loud construction I mean sledge hammering rebar in concrete not more than 10 feet from me, the pounding reverberation through my body, and sawing through metal pipe right below with a sawzall, not more than 6 feet away, day after day, almost every time I sat in there (except pre-dawn). This was probably the most striking thing that happened on the course, that I did not have even the slightest reaction to any of this noise for the remainder of the course. If there was a reaction meter hooked up to me it would not have moved even once. In fact many of those hours spent in that cell, with those noises vibrating through my body, were extremely sublime. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know exactly what you mean. On a course last November my bed was right against a wall that had a communal tumble drier up against it and the whole bed would constantly vibrate. It would also do the &lt;em&gt;bang-bang-bang-bang-bang&lt;/em&gt; thing as it got up speed. On the other side was a corridor with a door that was constantly slamming hard. Not quite as bad as your distractions but the same experience of high frequency vibrations and zero reactivity. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At the time i equated this with the stage of Equanimity (and I still do) as I had spent 3 days in hell prior to this in what I now regard as &amp;#034;my classic DN symptoms&amp;#034;. Did you go through a rough patch prior to this experience?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How did it end?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does Goenka teach anything else on this course? Different techniques / walking, postures, feelings, mind, etc?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 18:47:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3135441</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-12T18:47:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>notes from Goenka Satipatthana course</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3134873</link> <description>I finished a Goenka Satipatthana course last month and it was such a positive experience, I wanted to post some notes that could possibly be useful or relevant to someone. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I should start by saying this was the 10th course I&amp;#039;ve done, and as in other courses I experimented somewhat, and over the past 6 years have found my own unique way to approach these courses, so some of the things I say may not be useful to someone new to the goenka tradition, or to someone who is determined to follow instructions to the tee, which is a very good thing to do. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was constantly amazed how this particular course, the Satipatthana course, was so relevant to the way I have been practicing recently. I did this course 4 years ago, and even though at the time my practice was strong, and it was a great course in that an important shift happened, I did not have the background to really appreciate what was being taught. But since finding DhO, reading, MCTB, and all the places those have led the past two years, including some AF practices, and some of Kenneth Folks practices, so many things have become much more clear. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On my first few courses my tendency was to overwork, to strain, and I learned this was counterproductive. Goenka in fact fueled this tendency with his constant instructions to work seriously, work ardently, etc. I eventually learned that working ardently and seriously does not mean straining in any way - in fact he made this perfectly clear in the Satipatthana course, when he emphasized that we should be doing NOTHING - just observing, and certainly not straining. So to work ardently and seriously basically means to simply remain calmly and continuously alert. Regarding this, Tarin&amp;#039;s retreat advice, to not miss a second, not even a split second, has been very helpful for me - now now now now now now now &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to apply this during the first few days of anapana, when one&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;entire attention&amp;#034; is to remain on the tiny spot above the upper lip, rather than focus hard on this area, I found that by lightly, gently repeatedly and continuously touching this area with awareness, very calmly, stillness and tranquility being more useful words than ardently and seriously, attention was sharpened, and samadhi was quickly and very strongly developed. I did veer away from the anapana spot and experimented with the third eye spot, between the brows, on the surface, just touching this lightly but continuously for a number of hours - and this led to a very profound experience later in the course, which I will describe later (future post).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One thing I was determined to work on was to keep awareness on the surface, on the skin, like for example the touch of clothes on the skin, or body contact with the floor, or body to body contact, very simple, obvious surface sensations, &amp;#034;low hanging fruit&amp;#034; to use Kenneth&amp;#039;s term. I had always neglected this for a number of reasons (one being all the deep bodywork training I had), despite Goenka&amp;#039;s very clear instructions to remain on the surface until every single part is known. It became so obvious that all along he had been teaching us to spread awareness, to make awareness more diffuse, and to slowly learn to be sensitive to the entire body at once. When I did start scanning I did so in a calm and tranquil manner, without the feeling of actually moving attention around, but rather tuning attention in such a way as to perceive all the body at once, or as much as possible at once, which seems to be the opposite of a &amp;#034;one pointed mind&amp;#034;, and this was a very helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At one point early in the course, while in the meditation cell, there was pivotal moment when it felt as if the entire surface of my body sort of caught fire, all at once it started buzzing in an exaggerated way. From then on it felt like I was protected by a forcefield or something, and it remained for the remainder of the course. And this was very easy to keep track of, because there was very very loud construction going on just outside the meditation cells, which had been disturbing until this moment. By loud construction I mean sledge hammering rebar in concrete not more than 10 feet from me, the pounding reverberation through my body, and sawing through metal pipe right below with a sawzall, not more than 6 feet away, day after day, almost every time I sat in there (except pre-dawn). This was probably the most striking thing that happened on the course, that I did not have even the slightest reaction to any of this noise for the remainder of the course. If there was a reaction meter hooked up to me it would not have moved even once. In fact many of those hours spent in that cell, with those noises vibrating through my body, were extremely sublime. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;An aside - one sitting position that has been very helpful the past few years, and particularly for keeping awareness on the surface, and feeling much of the body at once, as there is much body to body contact, is the normal break position when on a cushion - when knees are brought up close to the chest, feet flat on ground, arms wrapped around knees, butte on cushion - the very positive effects of this position should not be underestimated imo, in fact I think it accelerated progress for me. During this past course there was no difference in quality of meditation whether I was sitting like this, or sitting in my normal cross legged position. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway probably the most important thing I learned on the course, and Goenka mentioned this at least a couple of times, as it was right in the sutta, was to learn to experience both the surface of the body, and the interior of the body, at the same time - together. I had not gotten this memo before. Because I had not followed instructions on earlier courses, and had not mastered the surface of the body before going inside, thinking it was superficial or somehow inferior, I couldn&amp;#039;t have been more wrong about this, I had not learned to untangle the two, and this has resulted in a lot of needless suffering and confusion. So now my practice is very much about learning to first clearly differentiate the two, then experience both interior and exterior together. And this practice goes right into Kenneth&amp;#039;s lightning rod/direct mode territory, as well as into actualizing the jhanas territory, if I understand this right, in that by simply being attentive to the interior twangs/emotions/disturbances etc, and juxtaposing these onto one&amp;#039;s experience at the surface, even something as simple as the clothes on the skin, or breeze on the skin, or awareness of seeing and hearing, or awareness of actuality itself, is a very effective way to de-twang, to cleanse the system. If it works for neutralizing lust, which it has been, then it should work for anything. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There&amp;#039;s a few other points I want to make, but will have to be in a future post.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2012 16:41:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3134873</guid> <dc:creator>John White</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-12T16:41:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Visualisation and Vipassana</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2753224</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Andy W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;li&gt;If so, how do I drop visualising? (At the moment, it feels a bit like asking a birth-blind person to imagine what colour is)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You may try doing this: &lt;br /&gt;1. Sit and meditate.&lt;br /&gt;2. Do some stretching exercises while being aware of the sensations. &lt;br /&gt;3. Sit and meditate again and see if you experience difference between the two sittings.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2012 03:21:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2753224</guid> <dc:creator>Change A.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-22T03:21:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Visualisation and Vipassana</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2752467</link> <description>If you aren&amp;#039;t deliberately visualizing there is no problem. As you progress further it will naturally start to fall away. That being said you should also put atleast a little effort into doing what the AT said.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:51:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2752467</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-22T00:51:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2752245</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, my question is: are there any case reports of yogis actually attaining stream entry using &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; Goenka technique, without doing any of the above?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I want to add that this technique has to work. It is simply one of the methods Buddha gave in the Satiphattana Sutta: body sensations. On top of that, if you take any object (buddho, noting, breathe, body sensation) and stick to it like glue you will become enlightened.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:41:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2752245</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-21T23:41:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2743181</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;TJ Broccoli:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; so yeh, for me it was a matter of using intuition in practice, and doing what worked by honing the self-adjusting feedback mechanism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;woops, I stole that last bit...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So yeh, for me it&amp;#039;s a matter of using intuition in practice, and doing what works by honing the self-adjusting feedback mechanism.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;jill&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeh this phrase seemed somehow satisfying to me too ;-)</description> <pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 16:11:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2743181</guid> <dc:creator>Thom W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-20T16:11:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2742649</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;﻿ Tarver ﻿:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Has anyone attained stream entry using pure Goenka technique?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My question hinges on the meaning of &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034;. The Goenka tradition strongly discourages &amp;#034;mixing techniques&amp;#034;. I can see three ways of doing this -- previous exposure, during a course, and subsequently -- arranged along a spectrum from inadvertent to deliberate...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;what happened for me:&lt;br /&gt;before 1999: no experience of &amp;#039;spiritual phenomena&amp;#039; or funky energetic stuff of any kind&lt;br /&gt;summer 1999: full-on pce after too much emotional and mental tension forced the mind to let go due to sheer exhaustion&lt;br /&gt;fall 1999 to fall 2000: year of dark night existential angst&lt;br /&gt;nov. 2000: stream entry on 9th day of 1st goenka course (and 1st meditation training of any kind)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;as far as my understanding of goenka&amp;#039;s meaning of &amp;#034;not mixing techniques&amp;#034; goes, what i practiced to get stream entry was nothing but following the 10-day retreat instructions to the best of my ability. any minor &amp;#039;adjusting&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;tweaking&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;going against instructions&amp;#039; that i did was all for the purpose of being able to better get back to following instructions when i was struggling to, or to be able to follow them more effectively. an example of a &amp;#039;minor adjustment&amp;#039; was keeping my eyes open at times when it seemed obvious that having them closed made it easier to drift off into daydreams, while keeping them open made my attention much more present and attentive to sensations (the instructions say keep the eyes closed). another example is not narrowing down the anapana spot if doing so obviously led to more daydreams and losing awareness, but spending sometime on the whole breath for a few minutes until concentration became stable enough to handle a tiny spot. (the instructions say keep attention at the spot above the upper lip, under the nostrils.) i&amp;#039;m sure goenka himself would support such &amp;#039;adjustments&amp;#039; because he gives a few such tips himself, such as meditating standing up for a while or getting up to wash your face and come back if you&amp;#039;re sleepy, or even holding the breath! at times the practice demanded an urgent ripping apart of beliefs or mental habits that got in the way of following instructions. so yeh, for me it was a matter of using intuition in practice, and doing what worked by honing the self-adjusting feedback mechanism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;woops, I stole that last bit...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So yeh, for me it&amp;#039;s a matter of using intuition in practice, and doing what works by honing the self-adjusting feedback mechanism.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i can&amp;#039;t ignore the importance of that pce experience a year prior to the course--having seen from actual experience what conditions to aim for really helped guide the practice. however, the pce insights did not show me how to alter the instructions in any way. as the days went on, the deeper i got into the practice, the more i felt that those exact instructions showed the fastest way possible for taking my life at that point closer to the pce (&amp;#039;fastest&amp;#039; at times also meant most unpleasant). what those pce insights showed me was exactly &amp;#039;how little&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;how much&amp;#039; application was necessary in every aspect of practice (given my specific mental/emotional/physical conditions)--how much effort, how much forcing of the mind, of attention, of the physical body, when to relax and let go, how literally or metaphorically to take goenka&amp;#039;s different pieces of advice, or whether to follow a certain instruction very seriously every second possible as long as i still found myself alive and breathing, or whether to take it lightly as a gentle helpful tip and sometimes ignore it, like the case with &amp;#039;keep your eyes closed&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;the path moment for me happened on a lunch break during the course, while sitting next to a lily pond trying to maintain continuity of attention. when high eq came, i wasn&amp;#039;t doing any scanning in sequence, but just staying aware of breathing and whatever random sensations were interesting. what caught my interest was the weird new perfection of equanimity (even the swarm of fruit flies that buzzed around me and landed on my face and eyelids were entertaining and richly interesting instead of annoying), the changes in the perceptions of will, intention, physical body, perceiver, space, peace, stillness, and then the moment happened. so technically, i did not actually experience the path moment while doing scanning practice, but i was still following goenka&amp;#039;s advice to stay aware (of breathing and some sensation or another) and equanimous at every moment. speaking from my experience only, i see no reason that this sort of &amp;#034;chilling in the present&amp;#034; should be included in his sitting instructions, because it&amp;#039;s what the attention ends up learning to do anyway during rest periods and daily life after all the tough scanning work. what i don&amp;#039;t know is if the path moment opportunity would likely be missed if one is intently focused on moving attention up and down the arms when high eq comes. (this is also why i&amp;#039;ve encouraged other goenka meditators, like btg, to have some aware chilling time after home sits to get the mind used to maintaining and enjoying heightened awareness in a natural way.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so to me, &amp;#034;goenka-style vipassana&amp;#034; goes beyond those initial instructions to sit and scan and sweep. the practice for me includes building on whatever is learned from results of applying that technique and further applying those insights and new perceptual skills in both sitting and daily life. after several years of retreats, practice, and clear progress under only one tradition, one might end up with a personally-catered practice that could be called &amp;#034;mixing techniques&amp;#034; by a good stretch of the definition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;that balancing act of knowing how much/how little seems really important; it&amp;#039;s finding your groove of optimal practice in real time, as it happens, and knowing how to make big or subtle adjustments every minute. i think this personal &amp;#034;recognizing what&amp;#039;s just right&amp;#034; should get refined with some solid practice effort (retreat experience is invaluable), trial and error, sincere interest and self-examination, and perhaps access to more specific advice and useful information, as is available on this forum. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tarver:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So, my question is: are there any case reports of yogis actually attaining stream entry using &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; Goenka technique, without doing any of the above? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i just hung out with one such suspect a couple weeks ago: no prior experience with other techniques or strange energetic phenomena (wife made him try first retreat), demonstrates experiential understanding of insights that came to me at the path moment and equivalent freedom from suffering in daily life, no evidence of pre-path perspective or fixed logic or insight confusion, but no recall of &amp;#034;disappearing&amp;#034;(fruitions), no knowledge of stages of insight (before talking to me), and not much urge to seek more information on how to practice or reach new attainments, as his (goenka-style) practice is going fine, still bringing progress, and he&amp;#039;s totally content with the incredible life change it has brought him. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tarver:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;My working hypothesis is that pure Goenka Vipassana rarely leads to stream entry. I would love to see this falsified. Maybe there is another discussion forum somewhere else where large numbers of Goenka practitioners have attained stream entry using the &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; Vipassana technique exactly as taught, but they just aren&amp;#039;t showing up here? If someone is aware of such a forum, a link would be appreciated. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i have no idea how rare or common it is, but i wouldn&amp;#039;t have shown up here or on any web forum myself had a goenka yogi friend not persuaded me to read mctb. i actually lost all interest in reading anything about spirituality and enlightenment after finding a practice that clearly worked for me. from goenka&amp;#039;s vague descriptions of attainments but high praise of the &amp;#034;totally changed person&amp;#034; as a &amp;#034;saintly person, a noble person&amp;#034; who has experienced &amp;#034;the first dip of nibhanna&amp;#034;(which is something &amp;#034;beyond mind and matter&amp;#034;--a total mystery to goenka students), it wouldn&amp;#039;t be surprising if many stream enterers in this tradition have no idea what their life-changing relief was according to the suttas. in my case, i only found out nine years after the event, and i would probably not be out about it had i not been convinced by daniel ingram&amp;#039;s arguments about the potential benefits of sharing this openly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;jill</description> <pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:22:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2742649</guid> <dc:creator>TJ Broccoli</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-20T14:22:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2740653</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;﻿ Tarver ﻿:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Blue .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve had luck getting stream entry and further using purely the technique. I have another close friend who also quickly moved through attainments.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Blue, did you (and/or your friend) have knowledge of the maps of the progress of insight at the time when you got stream entry using &amp;#034;purely the [Goenka Vipassana] technique&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am wondering out loud here if that very knowledge (a) is an important element of getting stream entry using &amp;#034;purely the technique&amp;#034;, and (b) might render the technique no longer &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; by its own terms?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Congratulations on attaining stream entry, by the way, and thank you for participating in these discussions to help others do the same.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I got to equanimity without knowledge of the maps. Then later ran into descriptions of the stages in a very old book. After that I was lucky enough to find them described in the pragmatic dharma movement. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for my friend I don&amp;#039;t think he was aware of the stages, he seemed to figure out a lot about them on his own.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-d</description> <pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 03:05:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2740653</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-20T03:05:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2738040</link> <description>Depending on how strictly you define &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; I could answer yes to this question, as my only formal instructed training was from three Goenka retreats (spread over 10 months) before I hit SE. However I had hit my first A&amp;amp;P before sitting my first course. So in some ways, it could be considered &amp;#034;purer&amp;#034; if someone had both hit the A&amp;amp;P and subsequently gone on to hit SE using the technique. Are you also considering it &amp;#034;purer&amp;#034; if a practitioner does not have knowledge of the maps?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Prior to my hitting SE I has read MCTB and had been paying more and more attention to sensation in daily life. I was also applying the technique according to what seemed to be working. At the point of SE I had recently come off my third retreat (in which I was serving) and was dropping scanning in favour of whole body awareness as I moved into EQ territory, which would happen quite quickly after starting my sits.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interestingly enough, since SE I went on to hit MCTB 2nd and 3rd paths within eight months, without any subsequent retreat time or contact with a teacher, so you could say I made it to anagami with just Goenka technique. However that&amp;#039;s pushing the definition a little, as 3rd path arose after a particularly intense bout of daily life practice (all day and all night at some points, in quite intense and extreme circumstances) in which I moved away from sitting towards a moment to moment investigation of how suffering was created by the &amp;#034;contraction&amp;#034; of the &amp;#034;field of awareness&amp;#034; around certain phenomena, including ideas, and the subsequent fabrications and self-concepts that arose from this moment to moment play of desire and aversion. This was closer to noting practice than anything else, but rather than the Mahasi style note-everything-as-fast-as-you-can approach I was just noting the contracting and sufferering as it happened, from a gently concentrated field-wide sensate base.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yeh, for me it&amp;#039;s a matter of using intuition in practice, and doing what works by honing the self-adjusting feedback mechanism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the end, it seems that the question as you phrased it comes down to what is and isn&amp;#039;t included in the definition of &amp;#034;Goenka technique&amp;#034;. Sitting and scanning aside, I seem to remember that in the discourses he mentions becoming more and more attentive to sensation in daily life. If this instruction is categorised as &amp;#034;Goenka technique&amp;#034; it necessarily means moving into a slightly more personal world of practice, as the ways in which we pay attention and subsequently what we pay attention to (in daily life) varies from individual to individual based on a huge array of factors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thom</description> <pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:28:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2738040</guid> <dc:creator>Thom W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-19T19:28:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2737301</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Blue .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve had luck getting stream entry and further using purely the technique. I have another close friend who also quickly moved through attainments.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Blue, did you (and/or your friend) have knowledge of the maps of the progress of insight at the time when you got stream entry using &amp;#034;purely the [Goenka Vipassana] technique&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am wondering out loud here if that very knowledge (a) is an important element of getting stream entry using &amp;#034;purely the technique&amp;#034;, and (b) might render the technique no longer &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; by its own terms?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Congratulations on attaining stream entry, by the way, and thank you for participating in these discussions to help others do the same.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:46:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2737301</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-19T16:46:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Delving into it</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2718146</link> <description>Did you note it?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 02:29:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2718146</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-16T02:29:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Delving into it</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2716375</link> <description>When you will be able to penetrate sensations (which include sensations of breathing in-and-out which happen on their own accord rather than controlled breathing) and mind-objects, then the body and the mind will be yoked together and there will be nothing unknowable and no unfathomability. And hence the root of psychological suffering will also be gone.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:34:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2716375</guid> <dc:creator>Change A.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-15T14:34:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Delving into it</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2715443</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m not sure how to phrase this question, or even if it&amp;#039;s more an observation than a question, so I&amp;#039;ll just jump in. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;During my sit just now, it occurred to me how I seem not be able to &amp;#039;penetrate&amp;#039; sensations and mind-objects that appear concurrent with observing simple breathing in-and-out. There&amp;#039;s this fear for example, that is underlying all-pervasive, and yet trying to dive into that sensation feels infinite, somehow unfathomable. It is and has historically always been the same with the breath too, that on one hand I can observe it and follow it, but somehow never penetrate it or really fathom it. When it comes right down to it, the breath is a prime example for how all other mental objects get perceived currently, as naggingly unknowable somehow, perceived and yet I can&amp;#039;t say anything for sure somehow. Doesn&amp;#039;t make me a great conversationalist. ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I guess there&amp;#039;s a sense that, while I have a resolution in mind as far as a semi-conscious purpose goes, whatever sensation I&amp;#039;m observing seems divorced from that, not concerned about endings or comings-to, and that fact, the unfathomability, is just unfathomable, hahaha. I think that&amp;#039;s what&amp;#039;s truly meant by lack of control. It occurs to me that, abstractly speaking, as a psychological being that&amp;#039;s a root of much suffering, that the psyche is built on plans and images and frameworks and purposes all pasted together, and everything going on is just divorced from that and irreconcilable, the sensations themselves being just...bare, I can&amp;#039;t really find the right word. I guess I mean the sensation of breath itself as it&amp;#039;s observed seems markedly separate from all the goings-ons of the mind, with the mind clammering to make some kind of sense of it and not seemingly able to exist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, that just occurred to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT: there&amp;#039;s really just this one moment to turn away from - I still haven&amp;#039;t got it, but everything falls under one heading, all variations on a theme. There isn&amp;#039;t all of this or that to decide on or recognize, there&amp;#039;s just this one moment that&amp;#039;s always been the same.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 07:36:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2715443</guid> <dc:creator>Mike Kich</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-15T07:36:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714538</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve had luck getting stream entry and further using purely the technique. I have another close friend who also quickly moved through attainments.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You have to keep in mind that the technique has to work. Why? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a stage talked about in the Satiphattana sutta which says the meditator experiences the whole body in one breathe. There are many meditation topics but they all must reach this stage at some point. So if all topics must eventually go through this stage why would starting off with body sensations be bad?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On top of that the Anagami and post-Anagami stage is all about body formations. The completion of Anagamihood is the completion of the body (aka sense pleasures). This is inline with my experience and that of the Thai forest monks. You can read about them using body contemplation at the Anagami stage in several books&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-d</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:41:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714538</guid> <dc:creator>Bailey .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T21:41:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714485</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;N A:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;N A:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve read it elsewhere on DhO that Goenka actually instructs to stop scanning at some point (presumably equanimity) and switch to panoramic awareness. You just don&amp;#039;t get to hear that unless you go to a 20-day course. So even according to Goenka body scanning is not the way to stream entry.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;having sat 2 x 20 days, I don&amp;#039;t remember these instructions to switch to panoramic awareness. It would have been helpful though. Following anapana for 6 or so days, it was the sweeping method for the majority of the course.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Found the thread:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;650316"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/650316&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tarin&amp;#039;s post: &amp;#034;goenka does teach this, but not until the 30 day course ...&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;So it&amp;#039;s 30 days and not 20, which is why you don&amp;#039;t remember it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had few opportunities to sit a 30 day over the many years sitting and serving at centres. I was even advised to sit a 30 day as soon as possible by the head teacher of Australia after my first serving course (which happened 5 months after my first ever course). But he then told me i couldn&amp;#039;t when he realised I had not practiced more than 2 years, sat 5 x 10 days, 1 x sati, and a 20 day course yet. The experiences of constant &amp;#039;bhanga&amp;#039; in every sit while serving a course and the massive upheavels of strange phenomena were enough for this head teacher to advise me to sit one, but the bureaucracy of the organisation made that impossible. I&amp;#039;m glad I never did for some reason. Cause and effect led me to interactive buddha, Daniel&amp;#039;s book, the DhO and mahasi noting. No looking back. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is a possibly interesting summary of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;vipassana&amp;#x2e;awardspace&amp;#x2e;info&amp;#x2f;forum&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;topic&amp;#x3d;25&amp;#x2e;0"&gt;the 30 day discourses&lt;/a&gt;.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:01:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714485</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T21:01:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714328</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;N A:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve read it elsewhere on DhO that Goenka actually instructs to stop scanning at some point (presumably equanimity) and switch to panoramic awareness. You just don&amp;#039;t get to hear that unless you go to a 20-day course. So even according to Goenka body scanning is not the way to stream entry.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;having sat 2 x 20 days, I don&amp;#039;t remember these instructions to switch to panoramic awareness. It would have been helpful though. Following anapana for 6 or so days, it was the sweeping method for the majority of the course.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Found the thread:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;650316"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/650316&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tarin&amp;#039;s post: &amp;#034;goenka does teach this, but not until the 30 day course ...&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;So it&amp;#039;s 30 days and not 20, which is why you don&amp;#039;t remember it.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:29:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714328</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T20:29:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714318</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;N A:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve read it elsewhere on DhO that Goenka actually instructs to stop scanning at some point (presumably equanimity) and switch to panoramic awareness. You just don&amp;#039;t get to hear that unless you go to a 20-day course. So even according to Goenka body scanning is not the way to stream entry.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;having sat 2 x 20 days, I don&amp;#039;t remember these instructions to switch to panoramic awareness. It would have been helpful though. Following anapana for 6 or so days, it was the sweeping method for the majority of the course.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:17:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714318</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T20:17:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714120</link> <description>Jill (TJ Broccoli) and Blue have both done this and subsequent paths. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can tell you that when in high equanimity the full body awareness thing feels intuitively right. Someone else said much the same recently but I can&amp;#039;t remember for the life of me who it was. I don&amp;#039;t know how that would work from lower down in EQ, but I hope to be in a position to comment on that shortly. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Watch my &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;2458742"&gt;practice thread&lt;/a&gt; for updates on that.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:10:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714120</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T19:10:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714100</link> <description>In the publication &lt;em&gt;Satipatthana Sutta Discourses&lt;/em&gt;, S.N. Goenka (Vipassana Research Institute, Seattle, 1998) ISBN 0-9649484-2-7, p. 101, the following questions and answers appear:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Q.&lt;/strong&gt; Since Vipassana is widespread, are &lt;em&gt;sotapannas&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;anagamis&lt;/em&gt;, and &lt;em&gt;arahants&lt;/em&gt; to be found today?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;A.&lt;/strong&gt; The number of meditators today is just a drop in an ocean of billions of people, and most are at the kindergarten stage: there are cases of meditators who have experienced &lt;em&gt;nibbana&lt;/em&gt;, but very few.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Q.&lt;/strong&gt; Without offence, are you, Goenka, fully enlightened?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;A.&lt;/strong&gt; I am not an &lt;em&gt;arahant&lt;/em&gt;, but without doubt on the path to becoming one. Having taken a few more steps on the path than all of you, I am competent to teach you. Walk on th path and reach the goal: that is more important than examining your teacher!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 18:50:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2714100</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T18:50:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2713974</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve read it elsewhere on DhO that Goenka actually instructs to stop scanning at some point (presumably equanimity) and switch to panoramic awareness. You just don&amp;#039;t get to hear that unless you go to a 20-day course. So even according to Goenka body scanning is not the way to stream entry.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:34:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2713974</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T17:34:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Stream entry using pure Goenka technique</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2713642</link> <description>Has anyone attained stream entry using pure Goenka technique?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My question hinges on the meaning of &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034;. The Goenka tradition strongly discourages &amp;#034;mixing techniques&amp;#034;. I can see three ways of doing this -- previous exposure, during a course, and subsequently -- arranged along a spectrum from inadvertent to deliberate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the first case, if someone has previously practiced in another tradition and/or has developed skills and/or habits and/or insights, these may bleed through and crop up or condition the practice of the Goenka Vipassana technique. Even a prior A&amp;amp;P or PCE event would surely influence how the Goenka technique is received or applied. Would this compromise it&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;purity&amp;#034;? Is &amp;#034;purity&amp;#034; even possible from this point of view?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The second case is deliberately (or perhaps inadvertently, but that is more subtle) failing to follow instructions during a course, or doing something other than or contrary to the instructions during a course, and attaining stream entry. I am not asking here about the distinction between morality based on obedience versus morality based on responsibility (although that obviously bears on the questions of &lt;em&gt;sila&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;kamma&lt;/em&gt;, etc.,) but rather trying to determine in a pragmatic way what leads to what.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The third case is having trained in the Goenka technique, then going on to altering the instructions, rejecting them, transcending them somehow, but in any case doing something other than what one was told to do subsequent to a course, and then attaining stream entry.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, my question is: are there any case reports of yogis actually attaining stream entry using &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; Goenka technique, without doing any of the above?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My working hypothesis is that pure Goenka Vipassana rarely leads to stream entry. I would love to see this falsified. Maybe there is another discussion forum somewhere else where large numbers of Goenka practitioners have attained stream entry using the &amp;#034;pure&amp;#034; Vipassana technique exactly as taught, but they just aren&amp;#039;t showing up here? If someone is aware of such a forum, a link would be appreciated.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:09:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2713642</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-01-14T15:09:27Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 