<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>The Maps in General</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=168200</link> <description>Anything general about meditation maps of insight here.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:31:29 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:31:29Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: Nanas &amp; me.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606526</link> <description>Doug - that all sounds great!  I don&amp;#039;t really have any more advice but glad to hear you are seeing some real-life benefits. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think that difficulties in day-to-day life can be some of the best motivators and sort of catalysts for good practice.  But that is just me!</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:16:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606526</guid> <dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T22:16:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nanas &amp; me.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606520</link> <description>Thanks Mike - great simple advice I needed to hear. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If it helps - here&amp;#039;s a brief bit of background on my practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Been &amp;#034;playing&amp;#034; with meditation in no serious way and with no serious consistency (mostly for stress relief) for a number of years.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A year or so ago started doing it a bit more consistently in response to difficulties in a relationship. (realized that if I had a problem it was because I was making a problem - and wanted to become less easily provoked.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Saw AMAZING results and wanted to learn how to do it right.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;About 6-8 months ago started devouring buddhist thought/teaching (being careful to stay secular). &lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;The creation of a formal practice in addition to the dharma has increased the already great results I&amp;#039;ve experienced from an interpersonal standpoint.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Budding interest in progress, path, and eventual liberation began about 4 months ago.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Lots more reading since then.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;I don&amp;#039;t specifically remember any epic A&amp;amp;P experiences but have certainly had moments of exquisite calm, and joy. Even experienced the &amp;#034;laughing for no real reason&amp;#034; that I&amp;#039;ve seen described. These things occurred for me while out in the real world, not during a sit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t specifically remember any obvious dark night either, but hey - we all have ups and downs in life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So that&amp;#039;s where I am.&lt;em&gt;.. really not sure where that is... &lt;/em&gt;but that&amp;#039;s where I am.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:20:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606520</guid> <dc:creator>Doug M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T21:20:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nanas &amp; me.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606516</link> <description>Doug - You have some fair questions there.  You might be in stage (nana) 1, 2, 3, 4...?   It would be hard to say without considering your history of meditation practice.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As a general matter, it is said that people &amp;#039;cycle&amp;#039; through the stages of insight.  So you might be in daily life and feel some aspects of a certain stage of insight, but then you might move into another stage during the course of that same day, or whenever.  In other words, you don&amp;#039;t really &amp;#039;lock in&amp;#039; your insights from a certain stage of insight and then go about embodying that in real life all the time (unless we are talking about stream entry etc., and that is a wholly different question).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the end my advice is to &amp;#039;keep on truckin&amp;#039;, but be aware that the hardest stages for most people are yet to come.   You might be in #3 given the back pain, (I had a lot of shoulder / upper back pain at that time).  But really the advice is the same if you are coming out of three or still in stage 2, just follow your meditation instructions to the best of your ability, and keep learning about the dharma - make adjustments to your practice as necessary.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:02:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606516</guid> <dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T21:02:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Nanas &amp; me.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606463</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m trying to get fix for where I MAY be in relation to the nanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Nana 1) Mind and Body:&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I understand this as a general understanding of one&amp;#039;s ability to be aware of physical things that perhaps were previously never considered consciously. &lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;Oh I actually CAN notice thoughts as they arise.&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Nana 2) Cause and Effect:&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I understand this as a general understanding of the fact that things lead to other things.&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Intent precedes movement.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Lifting the foot precedes stepping forward.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Reality TV makes me stupider&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;etc&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;Of course feel free to correct my understanding if needed, but assuming I&amp;#039;m not too far off base...&lt;span style="color: #0000ff"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;&lt;strong&gt;My First question is:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve got #s 1 &amp;amp; 2 ... when I&amp;#039;m paying attention or meditating.&lt;br /&gt;But when I&amp;#039;m answering a client email, or driving to work I&amp;#039;m pretty much back on unconscious autopilot.&lt;br /&gt;Is that the way it&amp;#039;s supposed to work?&lt;br /&gt;Or would one only consider themselves &amp;#034;past&amp;#034; these nanas if we were somehow able to be this aware ALL the time?&lt;br /&gt;cause that would feel pretty darned enlightened to me &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Nana 3) Three Characteristics:&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;This is where I get confused.&lt;/strong&gt; I sense myself making progress on the three characteristics but I wouldn&amp;#039;t go so far as saying I&amp;#039;ve come to any stage of insight on them.&lt;br /&gt;BUT - This nana is often said to accompany LOTS of physical pain even though sits used to be just fine.&lt;br /&gt;AND - I&amp;#039;ve also seen this nana named &amp;#034;Mastery&amp;#034; and described as: &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #800000"&gt;he [the meditator] now sees clearly the beginning, middle and end of the experience he is examining. This stage is called knowledge of mastery because the meditator acquires mastery in his understanding of impermanence.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Which I can certainly do, but again wouldn&amp;#039;t claim to have gained any impressive amount of insight as to no-self from it. (though perhaps a little.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #0000ff"&gt;&lt;u&gt;&lt;strong&gt;So, My Next question:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Given the alternate description, and the fact that my back is WRECKED during meditation lately (seriously like my ENTIRE back) ... am I in nana 3?&lt;br /&gt;Can you be &amp;#034;IN&amp;#034; nana or is it just a binary done/non-done thing?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #0000ff"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Last Question (for now):&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I am in fact past #2 ... and perahps passING #3 What should I do to help tease out the lessons of no-self &amp;amp; impermanence that seem rather shallow to me now?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Thanks for all the help and direction folks.&lt;br /&gt;I sincerely apprecaite it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:44:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606463</guid> <dc:creator>Doug M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T18:44:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Questions about the The Pre-Vipassana Stages</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606379</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;3. Also I would like some feedback on my practice. Right now my practice consists of noting without the notes. Just simply noticing and observing reality around me, feelings, thoughts, sounds, smells, seeing, touching. Occassionally I&amp;#039;ll toss some notes in there especially when the mind hasn&amp;#039;t really setlled down yet and I get lost in thought. But I always become aware of this and continue to observe.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You&amp;#039;re doing everything correctly.  Increase the dose or keep sitting as you&amp;#039;re doing and you&amp;#039;ll make progress.  Just keep going.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:22:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606379</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T10:22:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Questions about the The Pre-Vipassana Stages</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606257</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; 1. I have not yet attained stream entry. Would this be considered pre-path or first path? I have crossed the A&amp;amp;P however. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This would be considered pre-path, but you&amp;#039;re working on getting 1st path.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 05:01:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606257</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T05:01:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Questions about the The Pre-Vipassana Stages</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606157</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jake WM:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;A few questions:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. I have not yet attained stream entry. Would this be considered pre-path or first path? I have crossed the A&amp;amp;P however.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. With the above taken into consideration, would my insight cycle include the pre-vipassana stages (mind &amp;amp; body, cause &amp;amp; effect, three characteristics)?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Yes&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;, &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;you always start at ground zero.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I ask this because I am beginning to see a recurring theme in my meditations. I am sitting 20 minutes 3 times a day in quick succession, so usually a 20 minute sit, 10-15 minute break, 20 minute sit, break, sit again. I don&amp;#039;t have the capacity yet to sit for 60 minutes traight. However, my sits usually go something like this... Start observing the six sense doors, usually hearing and feeling and thinking are most dominant, sometimes get lost in thoughts (no more than 10-15 seconds before I realize this), note &amp;#034;thinking&amp;#034;... Then around the 30-60 minute mark, I begin to clearly see cause &amp;amp; effect in terms of how thinking correlates to a bodily response, triggers a response, but also other sense doors like reacting to bodily tension. This becomes overwhelming during the 40-50 minute mark where my upper chest/delts begin to ache, my upper back, traps, and neck begin to tense up and ache, lots of dull pain. Also the quads and lower back and knees. This could be related to long periods of being in the seated position, but it seems to correlate with the pre-vipassana stages that MCTB describes. During this period I start to kind of twitch and my body contorts (sometimes I do it intentionally, sometimes it feels like I am watching my body react to this stuff).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Good reporting, this does sound the 1st 3 nyanas.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3. Also I would like some feedback on my practice. Right now my practice consists of noting without the notes. Just simply noticing and observing reality around me, feelings, thoughts, sounds, smells, seeing, touching. Occassionally I&amp;#039;ll toss some notes in there especially when the mind hasn&amp;#039;t really setlled down yet and I get lost in thought. But I always become aware of this and continue to observe.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;This type of noting tends to be referred to a &amp;#034;noticing&amp;#034; and has a more gentle feel. Don&amp;#039;t be afraid to go back to a more formal style if you have trouble concentrating, all noting is good noting.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Sounds like you are in a groove, good work.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 00:38:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606157</guid> <dc:creator>Howard Maxwell Clegg</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T00:38:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Questions about the The Pre-Vipassana Stages</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605984</link> <description>A few questions:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. I have not yet attained stream entry. Would this be considered pre-path or first path? I have crossed the A&amp;amp;P however.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. With the above taken into consideration, would my insight cycle include the pre-vipassana stages (mind &amp;amp; body, cause &amp;amp; effect, three characteristics)? I ask this because I am beginning to see a recurring theme in my meditations. I am sitting 20 minutes 3 times a day in quick succession, so usually a 20 minute sit, 10-15 minute break, 20 minute sit, break, sit again. I don&amp;#039;t have the capacity yet to sit for 60 minutes traight. However, my sits usually go something like this... Start observing the six sense doors, usually hearing and feeling and thinking are most dominant, sometimes get lost in thoughts (no more than 10-15 seconds before I realize this), note &amp;#034;thinking&amp;#034;... Then around the 30-60 minute mark, I begin to clearly see cause &amp;amp; effect in terms of how thinking correlates to a bodily response, triggers a response, but also other sense doors like reacting to bodily tension. This becomes overwhelming during the 40-50 minute mark where my upper chest/delts begin to ache, my upper back, traps, and neck begin to tense up and ache, lots of dull pain. Also the quads and lower back and knees. This could be related to long periods of being in the seated position, but it seems to correlate with the pre-vipassana stages that MCTB describes. During this period I start to kind of twitch and my body contorts (sometimes I do it intentionally, sometimes it feels like I am watching my body react to this stuff).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3. Also I would like some feedback on my practice. Right now my practice consists of noting without the notes. Just simply noticing and observing reality around me, feelings, thoughts, sounds, smells, seeing, touching. Occassionally I&amp;#039;ll toss some notes in there especially when the mind hasn&amp;#039;t really setlled down yet and I get lost in thought. But I always become aware of this and continue to observe.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you!</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:09:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605984</guid> <dc:creator>Jake WM</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T13:09:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5569537</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m actually still really interested in this topic, primarily because I feel that I&amp;#039;ve reached the abiding sense of non-duality spoken of in the article as awakening, I also resonate with the notion of how effort is counterproductive and how practices for awakening are seen as irrelevant after the event.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However I still find this abiding non-duality, really lacking, it is definitely very wholesome pleasant, it manifests mostly as a bodily pleasure so it is possible that I&amp;#039;m just in soft jhana 24/7. Actually I find the descriptions of the state of &amp;#039;body-witness&amp;#039; very apt for describing this state, also some descriptions of formless realms, the imperturbable and emptiness (sunnata).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nevertheless, whatever this temporary non-duality is (it takes effort, or exertion to put myself in it), I&amp;#039;m looking for a way to get past it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Actually as I write this post it&amp;#039;s kinda clear to me that I&amp;#039;m merely entering a state of emptiness, or jhana at will, and mistaking it for awakening. This definitely isn&amp;#039;t permanent, it&amp;#039;s quite subject to change, and it is compounded, so it can&amp;#039;t be nibbana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Need a way to escape this. Anyways just thinking out loud.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2014 22:30:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5569537</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-15T22:30:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567550</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Duncan Barford, who used to post here years ago, and whom I regard as a strong practitioner and admire for his willingness to share details of his practice and progress, reported a baseline shift, path, or whatever it was on his blog:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;oeith&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;2014&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;05&amp;#x2f;on-retreat-with-alan-chapman&amp;#x2f;"&gt;On Retreat with Alan Chapman&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyone recognize what he&amp;#039;s describing? How would you fit this into your favorite working hypothesis?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Me, I find it reminds me a lot of the Heart Sutra. But he is very specific that Buddhist concepts and language don&amp;#039;t work for him regarding this development.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for linking this account, Florian! I find it interesting. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Personally I am not super interested in mapping this (translating it into another framework) but that said, my first point of departure would be to ask: is there consensus that what Duncan and Alan refer to as Awakening corresponds with what Daniel calls 4th path? I ask because the shift that Duncan is describing could be a lot of different things depending on whether it is a tangent off of one of the earlier paths or whether it is a post-4th path shift (maybe, I don&amp;#039;t really know lol-- this goes back to my allusion above that I am skeptical of cross-mapping and ultimately am more interested on knowing 1) is Awakening in Alan&amp;#039;s system equivalent to 4th Path as is implied? and 2) if that is so than what does Alan see Liberation as being and is it dependent on acheiving Awakening first etc?? ). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My impression after reading and reflecting is that it is hard to say what is going on in this account. I found it compelling and it seems that it has been very significant to Duncan; especially in that it was the first shift in the &amp;#039;structure of consciousness&amp;#039; (i.e., Path?) that he has undergone in several years. So I respect that sense of his that it is very significant. The theistic and Platonic framework is very different for me but I&amp;#039;m pretty good at being able to listen and empathize with folks who express their insights in different systems; but the nature of this one makes me curious whether it is a kind of Shift that can only occur within such a framework. In other words, again: is this about mapping his insight into a prag dharma Therevada framework of does this shift represent something other entirely, a different *kind* of shift? Which latter my gut tells me is more likely, but then, I generally suspect that there are all sorts of Shifts of different kinds that can arise. My raw impression of his narrative is that it is yet a deeper, and more feeling-centered, realization of nonduality. In other words, if Awakening/4th Path is perceptual nonduality, lots of folks do express interesting heart-level shifts after 4th path (and before it too though--). It would be interesting for example to hear Daniel and Duncan dialogueing on their respective post-4th emotional/feeling work and shifts which have arisen in the context of very different frameworks. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess I would love to hear more from Duncan about the whole experience and what it means to him, engage him in a bit of dialogue, if he were willing to post here (although perhaps he wouldn&amp;#039;t feel too welcome at this point). I also am curious about Alan&amp;#039;s framework as there was not too much about what Liberation is supposed to be in his system, how it differs from Awakening, etc, all of which would help me to understand what Duncan&amp;#039;s experience meant to him, as it seems that it has been identified as &amp;#039;Liberation&amp;#039; in this context. So what is that? How does it differ from Awakening? More examples of others&amp;#039; experiences of this shift would be awesome. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In short, fascinating account and I&amp;#039;d love to learn more. Hopefully a serious dialogue will arise.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2014 15:38:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567550</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-12T15:38:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567022</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I took the &amp;#034;pissing on&amp;#034; remark in the same sense as the &amp;#034;noble silence lunacy&amp;#034; remark, though: not an insult to individual practitioners, but frustration with the Buddhist retreats he has attended. He even wrote a book about it, &amp;#034;The Retreat&amp;#034;, where he is less dismissive of Buddhist retreat culture in the west, but still very critical of it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A potential source of confusion is that while I posted this here because I was interested in people&amp;#039;s takes on Duncan&amp;#039;s newest discovery, the article he wrote was mostly about his retreat experience. So maybe I should have just cut-n-pasted the relevant paragraphs here and linked the article for reference.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m glad you let people filter it as they like, versus providing an edited version here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do look for ways to support the useful scrutiny of buddhism in practice, like, for example, its ongoing commitment to genital-based models. But if I vocalize ~ or even think/want ~ any plan for buddhism to actualize equanimity in its schools via a vulgar, cheap campaign like &amp;#034;End Institutional &amp;#039;dicks up, chicks down!&amp;#039;&amp;#034; (I&amp;#039;m looking for something roughly peer to what your link author provides in his &amp;#034;pisses on buddhism from a great height&amp;#034; and more), then I&amp;#039;m just going to spread a distracting rudness that is not even clever and it is that seed of distracting rudeness that will bear fruit, and what will not be seeded is the logic of dismissing buddhist genital-bias based on its absurd and wild non-EQ.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So the author of the link you provided has a distracting rudeness/mean-spirited needniness either overshadowing his practice or properly showing its results. Some people, some times will be attracted to that though, want to make more of that in the world; for me, it&amp;#039;s just not a fun or worth-the-while collab or outcome.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:09:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567022</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-11T21:09:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567017</link> <description>Exactly : )</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:55:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5567017</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-11T20:55:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566974</link> <description>Ah the stink of enlightenment. It tends to get most of us, if just mentally and we dearly try to refrain from expressing it, especially during the high right after a shift.&lt;br /&gt;Been there, done that, several times.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Oh suchness which pees higher&amp;#034; upon whom only &amp;#034;the dimensionless wonk&amp;#034; may adimensionally smile.&lt;br /&gt;This makes me smile,  non-adimentionally of course....ummm I think.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2014 18:17:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566974</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-11T18:17:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566841</link> <description>Hi Florian, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So what comes through there for me in that post you linked to, because of his needless insults and insecure &amp;#034;superiority&amp;#034;, is his emotional  anger and fight. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s like the kid who walks on the field and starts shouting foul words and provoking anger ~ &amp;#034;I have a great console at home and yours sucks!&amp;#034;; &amp;#034;My spork pisses on your spoon and fork from great height&amp;#034; ~ because they need attention and they need a reason to fight. Maybe their teacher wants students like that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Plenty of ideologies want students like that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, not a peer or a program I seek out due to his presentation and my own comfort with what I do and engaging with balanced*, effortful folks from any tradition or study.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_______&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;*or balancing out. I sure didn&amp;#039;t start out emotionally &amp;#034;balanced&amp;#034;, hence why I started this investigation here :]</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:48:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566841</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-11T12:48:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566836</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #444444"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Open&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;Arial&amp;#x2c;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Putting it frankly, Alan’s approach pisses all over Buddhism from a great height.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #444444"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Open&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;Arial&amp;#x2c;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, reading this, a deliberately insulting and affrontive take, I think, &amp;#034;Uh.. yeah, that&amp;#039;s not an outcome I want from anything I study.&amp;#034; And I don&amp;#039;t really want anyone to be  born in a place where a neighbor says, &amp;#034;My practices pisses on your practice from great height.&amp;#034; (there&amp;#039;s a fake Calvin and Hobbes bumper sticker that does illustrate this mind well: boy pissing on something and smirking angrily). So there&amp;#039;s a lot of that, and if one&amp;#039;s model is &amp;#034;mine is bigger than/pisses on yours&amp;#034; this person exhibits they are getting this way of being from their practice, and there is certainly an audience for it. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, Duncan is not exactly a fanboy of contemporary Western Buddhism. I took the &amp;#034;pissing on&amp;#034; remark in the same sense as the &amp;#034;noble silence lunacy&amp;#034; remark, though: not an insult to individual practitioners, but frustration with the Buddhist retreats he has attended. He even wrote a book about it, &amp;#034;The Retreat&amp;#034;, where he is less dismissive of Buddhist retreat culture in the west, but still very critical of it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A potential source of confusion is that while I posted this here because I was interested in people&amp;#039;s takes on Duncan&amp;#039;s newest discovery, the article he wrote was mostly about his retreat experience. So maybe I should have just cut-n-pasted the relevant paragraphs here and linked the article for reference.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:33:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566836</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-11T11:33:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566426</link> <description>Read the article, a couple of things:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Doesn&amp;#039;t seem very Buddhist at all, this I would have to agree with. Buddhism is great at beating down the mind, concentrating it, shaping it and so on and so forth, but it seems to beat you into a dead-end after a while, this is my experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) The God thing, the whole Hindu (I am Brahman) thing, doesn&amp;#039;t seem to fit here either, Hinduism is very idealist and doesn&amp;#039;t seem to lend itself to Duncan&amp;#039;s realization.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) Re the effort thing, I definitely went through a lot of crap to get to where I am today (an abiding sense of non-duality), however, looking back, I really wonder how much of it was worth it or necessary, I have at time speculated that what I went through is really just part and parcel of growing up as a human being, because regardless of what I did, it probably would have unfolded that way anyways.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4) Religious safeguards (stream entry, refuge, guarantees of awakening (particularly found in Mahayana sutras)) never lie, they actually tend to work out, no matter how doubtful you seem at the time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;5) I do remember reading the duo&amp;#039;s work over at the Baptist&amp;#039;s Head, I was a voracious reader of their activities and whatnot.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:36:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566426</guid> <dc:creator>James Yen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T20:36:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566374</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #444444"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Open&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Putting it frankly, Alan’s approach pisses all over Buddhism from a great height.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #444444"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Open&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, reading this, a deliberately insulting and affrontive take, I think, &amp;#034;Uh.. yeah, that&amp;#039;s not an outcome I want from anything I study.&amp;#034; And I don&amp;#039;t really want anyone to be  born in a place where a neighbor says, &amp;#034;My practices pisses on your practice from great height.&amp;#034; (there&amp;#039;s a fake Calvin and Hobbes bumper sticker that does illustrate this mind well: boy pissing on something and smirking angrily). So there&amp;#039;s a lot of that, and if one&amp;#039;s model is &amp;#034;mine is bigger than/pisses on yours&amp;#034; this person exhibits they are getting this way of being from their practice, and there is certainly an audience for it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, maybe it&amp;#039;s just this practioner is going through a hostile and insulting phase and clearly celebrating it publically, perhaps no fault maybe of his teachers/guides. Vulgar conceit arises in any so-welcoming mind, no matter the model/teacher/path until it&amp;#039;s seen as unreliable and self-painful. &lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:15:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566374</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T20:15:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566368</link> <description>In one of his books he says that if he ever starts playing the guru game then someone should shoot him.... Just sayin&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, do you mind divulging what subtle dharma was the point of contention? After relating heavily with all three of Alan&amp;#039;s books I&amp;#039;m left very curious about his current take on enlightenment and how he relates it to the A.&amp;#039;.A.&amp;#039;., sex magick, inner alchemy, the &amp;#039;secret of the OTO&amp;#039;, and so on.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:11:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566368</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T20:11:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566364</link> <description>There seems to be a kind of underlying and subtle assumption at times that the knowledge from long ago is not only the only knowledge that is needed but also the only knowledge that is useful or will ever useful.  I don&amp;#039;t agree with either assumption.  I personally feel that, and I am sure that others may disagree, I personally feel that no special ancient knowledge, texts, or statements are actually NEEDED for enlightenment.  Buddha figured it out his own way and I also think there were many others before him.  Before there was a special terminology for it that currently survives in our history books, I think there was, before that, still people who became enlightened.  So I don&amp;#039;t think the ancient texts are a requirement. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But are they useful and helpful?  I&amp;#039;d guess that for many, yes, that knowledge does help.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But is it all that will ever be known and/or all that will ever be useful?  I&amp;#039;d say no.  I don&amp;#039;t think humanity is done with all useful learning on that front.  Something doesn&amp;#039;t have to be old to be true and all old things are not true.  I do think we can learn more and add to current understanding.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think also there is a great reluctance on the part of many (especially gurus and leaders) to say the magical words, &amp;#034;I don&amp;#039;t know,&amp;#034; when confronted with a question. Instead, there tends to be an attitude of it&amp;#039;s not known, it&amp;#039;s not only not needed but also that the better understanding of it would not even be useful. IMO, the leap from &amp;#039;not needed&amp;#039; to &amp;#039;not useful&amp;#039; is a large and also often incorrect assumption.  If we don&amp;#039;t even understand something, how can we assume such understanding would not be of use?  Oh but it&amp;#039;s not needed some might say!  ;-P&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Certainly there is something to be said about practicality.  And there are so many strange and varying side effects to meditation that the idea of understanding any one individual&amp;#039;s symptoms does seem rather unlikely on the face of it, at least given current knowledge, so I can certainly see why a lot of things have gotten informly lumped into a kind of &amp;#039;weird but unimportant side effects&amp;#039; type of category.   And I can certainly see why leaders might want people to concentrate on methods they think would work best and not get sidetracked by other things.  But I also think long term, it would be useful for humanity to put some effort into trying to get a better understanding of some of this stuff and actually add to our knowledge base instead of just continuing to surf along as best we can on the old knowledge.  Hopefully, there is still room for curiosity even about things that aren&amp;#039;t absolutely NEEDED but still might turn out to be useful.  Curiosity is what drives progress and evolution.  IMO, we stunt that at our own peril.  &lt;br /&gt;-Eva </description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:11:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566364</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T20:11:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566314</link> <description>I agree with your grades correlations and have similar thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I read Duncan&amp;#039;s descriptions and I am not sure what to make of it, but it sounds like he is definitely getting something out of it and having a good time. It will be interesting to see if it stays that way and/or what it turns into when and if the high wears off.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope the &amp;#034;guru&amp;#034; thing is all tongue in cheek. I have only met Alan once and we sort of locked horns over some subtle dharma point, and, in retrospect, I wish I had just shut that down and shifted geers and spent more time getting to know the guy.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 16:12:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566314</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T16:12:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566295</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;m interested to see what everyone else has to say on this&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That poem certainly plays into the &amp;#034;midwifery&amp;#034; theme.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The A.:A.: grades map nicely onto the Theravada map, though: Master of the Temple to Stream-enterer, Magus to Once/Non-Returner, and Ipsissimus to Arahat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m interested if this map (A.:A.: and Theravada) covers what Duncan is describing at all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 15:37:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566295</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T15:37:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566291</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The author hints that he is past liberation, or around that stage. Then he says that according to Chapman, Enlightenment doesn&amp;#039;t requires effort or going through shitty stages. It&amp;#039;s not clear if he is talking about the third stages or the first. It&amp;#039;s a very important distinction.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think the effortlessness bit is about the entire process of enlightenment in the context of the retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 15:31:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566291</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T15:31:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566288</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Putting it frankly, Alan’s approach pisses all over Buddhism from a great height.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, you have my attention... &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are these guys still primarily using Western Magick as their framework for practice? I haven&amp;#039;t kept up with them in a couple of years, it seemed that both of them moved to more pure vipassana after SE. I do miss reading their stuff.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, Magick all the way down as far as I know, very eclectic. A few years ago, Alan got interested in Pierre Grimes&amp;#039; work on Platonism and Philosophical Midwifery (i.e. Socrates&amp;#039; schtick). Looks like he stuck to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;EDIT: &amp;#034;In subjective terms, it feels like my heart has expanded infinitely. But this infinite heart is God’s as much as mine. My heart is encompassed within the heart of God, even as God raises mine to the dimensions of Its heart.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure what to say about this other than it sounds similar to what Bernadette Roberts and other Christian mystics talk about, being unsure of where &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; ends and where &amp;#034;God&amp;#034; begins.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, that subtle dualism. Duncan claims that it has collapsed for him.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe he will weigh in, I pointed this discussion out to him.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 15:27:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566288</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T15:27:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566161</link> <description>Hi Jeff&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This entire post has been about how that may not be enough in some cases and how there can be further criteria to help people. Did you just not read it?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2014 00:57:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566161</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-10T00:57:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566145</link> <description>There is something confusing about this article. Chapman is said to define 3 stages: &lt;br /&gt;1. non-duality (Said to be Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s flavor of enlightenment)&lt;br /&gt;2. liberation&lt;br /&gt;3. Enlightenment&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The author hints that he is past liberation, or around that stage. Then he says that according to Chapman, Enlightenment doesn&amp;#039;t requires effort or going through shitty stages. It&amp;#039;s not clear if he is talking about the third stages or the first. It&amp;#039;s a very important distinction. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In an interview, Kenneth Folks talks about a small group of people with whom he participate in some kind of social experiment where people point at each others patterns. I see some kind of connection there. Still, it&amp;#039;s not clear how much this is relevant for people working on stage 1.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2014 23:02:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566145</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-09T23:02:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566092</link> <description>That Platonic cosmology has piqued my interest; if I had the cash I&amp;#039;d book a Chapman retreat. The no-effort-required part sounds very much like what was said a few times in &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;29rNbZg4yAk"&gt;this BATGAP panel&lt;/a&gt;. It&amp;#039;s gonna ruffle a few feathers in this forum, no doubt &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, I&amp;#039;m definitely unsure but the love bit reminds me of the following&lt;br /&gt; Crowley poem&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="lfr-code"&gt;&lt;table&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class="line-numbers"&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;1&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;2&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;3&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;4&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;5&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;6&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;7&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;8&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;9&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;10&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;11&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;12&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;13&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;14&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;15&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;16&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class="number"&gt;17&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class="lines"&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; {Kappa-Epsilon-Phi-Alpha-Lambda-Eta Gamma}&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;THE OYSTER&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The Brothers of A.&amp;#039;.A.&amp;#039;. are one with the Mother of&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;the Child.(4)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The Many is as adorable to the One as the One is to&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;the Many.&amp;nbsp; This is the Love of These; creation-&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;parturition is the Bliss of the One; coition-&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;dissolution is the Bliss of the Many.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The All, thus interwoven of These, is Bliss.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Naught is beyond Bliss.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The Man delights in uniting with the Woman; the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;Woman in parting from the Child.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The Brothers of A.&amp;#039;.A.&amp;#039;. are Women: the Aspirants&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="line"&gt;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;to A.&amp;#039;.A.&amp;#039;. are Men.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I&amp;#039;m interested to see what everyone else has to say on this</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2014 22:37:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566092</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-09T22:37:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566088</link> <description>&amp;#034;&lt;span style="color: #444444"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Open&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Putting it frankly, Alan’s approach pisses all over Buddhism from a great height.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, you have my attention... &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are these guys still primarily using Western Magick as their framework for practice? I haven&amp;#039;t kept up with them in a couple of years, it seemed that both of them moved to more pure vipassana after SE. I do miss reading their stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT: &amp;#034;In subjective terms, it feels like my heart has expanded infinitely. But this infinite heart is God’s as much as mine. My heart is encompassed within the heart of God, even as God raises mine to the dimensions of Its heart.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure what to say about this other than it sounds similar to what Bernadette Roberts and other Christian mystics talk about, being unsure of where &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; ends and where &amp;#034;God&amp;#034; begins. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2014 22:15:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5566088</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-09T22:15:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Something for the map geeks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5565983</link> <description>Duncan Barford, who used to post here years ago, and whom I regard as a strong practitioner and admire for his willingness to share details of his practice and progress, reported a baseline shift, path, or whatever it was on his blog:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;oeith&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;2014&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;05&amp;#x2f;on-retreat-with-alan-chapman&amp;#x2f;"&gt;On Retreat with Alan Chapman&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyone recognize what he&amp;#039;s describing? How would you fit this into your favorite working hypothesis?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Me, I find it reminds me a lot of the Heart Sutra. But he is very specific that Buddhist concepts and language don&amp;#039;t work for him regarding this development.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:54:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5565983</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-09T14:54:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564097</link> <description>Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;Have you had a chance to check out the Wiki with this site there are some great descriptions of the nanas and sub nanas&lt;br /&gt;cheers&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Mon, 04 Aug 2014 02:35:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564097</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-04T02:35:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563838</link> <description>Hi Jeff,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You&amp;#039;re wrong. The whole point of this thread is to make it easier for people who need it like that. Obviously insight is what works. And yet it can be made more accessible to people early on. It is just about making a goal oriented practice. Does that not sound like PD to you?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2014 05:30:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563838</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-03T05:30:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: One the Nature of Cycling and 'Falling Back Down'</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563585</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been hovering around Dark Night - Reobservation - Equanimity now for about 6 months. The lowest I ever start from is A&amp;amp;P, and I often start from ReObservation or even Equanimity if I have been particularly mindfull during the day. </description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 08:32:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563585</guid> <dc:creator>Jason Snyder</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T08:32:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: One the Nature of Cycling and 'Falling Back Down'</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563556</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m pre-path, as far as I know, and my mediations start at the A&amp;amp;P, never at mind &amp;amp; body anymore. I remember what mind &amp;amp; body was like, but it has been gone for a long time now (2 years). I&amp;#039;m really unclear about how &amp;#034;falling back&amp;#034; works. MCTB2 should clarify this topic.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 06:10:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563556</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T06:10:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cycling up and down the nanas [John Power] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563551</link> <description>Yeah. I really don&amp;#039;t understand from MCTB how pre/post-path cycling/regressing differs. I have &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; attained stream entry, but it is super clear to me that my meditations start precisely at the A&amp;amp;P, certainly not at Mind &amp;amp; Body.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 06:03:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563551</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T06:03:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563525</link> <description>Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;sorry for misunderstanding...I see your positiv intention but I would prefer to open a new thred and make it claer what is your goal with it...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As Jeff sad underling conditions can make the progress more diffucult (and you can hardly avoid them) and those conditions are very different for each person. Somebody go faster others are slower. We have to pay the price for everything we have done. &lt;br /&gt;The low of Karma can not be avoided. All suffering we get has its place in our progress.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;I would not call it „waisting thousands of hours…“ All those hours are lessions must be learned. &lt;br /&gt;If you find a good teacher and you are able to follow instructions then it is because of your good karma from the past. As the level of desires are dropped the mind tend to be less distracted so the „fine tune“ practice can go on. &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;So if we want to find explanation for the early territory: underling conditions based on our Karma. I think it would be more beneficial for others (because this is your goal if I got your point) to talk about how could you overcome those difficulties then finding the causes of the difficulties. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The instructions are very basic but can be followed only when the mind is already cleaned on the superficial level. If it is hard for somebody to get his mind to do what must be done then working on morality and perfections will give a good support.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;NM</description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 03:47:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563525</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T03:47:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563463</link> <description>Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;You will cycle thru stages with each sit, you have an underling medical condition which you explained and perhaps it made your progression thru the earlier stages uniquely painful&lt;br /&gt;Use Google to search this site&lt;br /&gt;The map that Dan&amp;#039;s book is based on is 2000 years old and a well trodden path, it&amp;#039;s not about the map it&amp;#039;s the insight that leads to progress&lt;br /&gt;Cheers&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:02:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563463</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T01:02:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563445</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m not &amp;#034;worrying about where I am&amp;#034;. My practice is beyond this. You&amp;#039;re just assuming I&amp;#039;m trying to self medicate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is actually a topic to try to make progress more realistic for people who are in that territory.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My question about whether I&amp;#039;m in the DN or not is just this: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I am in the DN, that explains the previous territory. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I am not in the DN, then there can be better explanations for early territory like that that avoids wasting thousands of hours for a specific type of practitioner.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:32:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563445</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-02T00:32:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563171</link> <description>I still don&amp;#039;t understand why do you worry so much about where you are...&lt;br /&gt;If you are not in the DN then keep going noting....If you are in the DN then keep going noting...&lt;br /&gt;don&amp;#039;t follow your mind come back to present and the next stage will arise. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;NM</description> <pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2014 06:12:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563171</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-01T06:12:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563137</link> <description>So, I am wondering if I am in the DN or not, I would think not, because everything that has come up has been so predictable. But maybe the degree of concentration here, not very much compared to most serious meditators I think (although offset by 24/7 commitment), might have the effect of making it not so chaotic/piercing?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sad to see no one is interested in thinking about this. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Someone here even said &amp;#034;maybe meditation&amp;#039;s not for you&amp;#034;... that&amp;#039;s like someone rich telling someone poor &amp;#034;maybe economic stability isn&amp;#039;t for you&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2014 04:12:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5563137</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-01T04:12:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561755</link> <description>Yeah, that could what I&amp;#039;m thinking about, chakras. My idea with this thread is that this type of territory should be included in the maps. It appears to be criteria for fostering deeper insights. Without a reasonable base of perception in your body, you will not pass through the A&amp;amp;P.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My practice includes similar things to what Pawel suggested.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2014 18:01:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561755</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-28T18:01:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561712</link> <description>Imho it is caused by blockades in energetic bodies and their misalignment with physical body. Try body scanning, sweep your body with your awareness and use generally upward movement, from legs to head. You can try to move energy that way to locations of chakras. Also when you do breath meditation let yourself feel strong vibration with out breaths, not force them but be open to them, have attitude that its good for you and that breath meditation is helping you already. Also be 100% positive.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;More advanced thing to do would be pulling/pushing your energetic bodies through chakras from *inside* to *outside* and outside to inside. This require operational and active chakras which is most probably not the case, at least not in a way that would enable such a feat to be easy to do. I mention it so that maybe you will remember it for when you activate your chakras. Practicing it will clean your energetic bodies like nothing else.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:01:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561712</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-28T14:01:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561572</link> <description>Great So I thought I would just place the results of the last couple weeks of my practice in this same thread, why bother with a new one, especially when 80% of respondents just decided that I am just confused, and that that&amp;#039;s all there is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it has been pretty consistent the last two weeks. Winding the clock back two weeks, there was a period where during meditation and also off the cushion through general mindfulness, the tensions in the left part of my face felt more close together, and less than before, when they felt like the parts on that side of the face were loosely held together by string. A disjointed feel. But those few days were of a closer more integrated feel to them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then starting on last Friday my head started to assume a posture moved to the right with my ear approaching my right shoulder, with significant tension arising in the back left part of my neck, getting very strong. During this time with the significant tension, there was a feeling with the tensions throughout the left side of my head as though they were getting integrated with one another, into the whole field on the head itself. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This pattern reemerged in the following days, and eventually progressed to my jaw opening wide, my head moving around into different positions, although with most of them having the face point upwards, and the tension moving from just the back left part of my neck to my jaw and other parts of the back of my neck, depending on how my head was moved. At times my jaw would open very very widely and tensely - powerfully so, that it almost felt like my jaw was being opened by exterior forces. When this was happening it felt like there were other tinier tensions and distortions usualy extant in my face that were becoming resolved.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This has become easier to get in touch with since then, in the last couple days.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Accompanying this insight is a general feeling of fear/anxiety/tenseness/apprehension. Just an uncertainty and sort of hesitance about feeling the strange postures my face and head are adopting. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is that simple. Nothing else has been happening. Only one time there was a slight tingly wave that went down my right leg. That is all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To me this seems like just another mind &amp;amp; body rendition addressing the distortions in my experience since far before any insight practice or insight event. This particular one with the tension in my left face has been there probably as long as I can remember. I was dissociated from it and ignoring it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So what else do we need to know to make the decision? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The only thing I can think of is the progression of the sits. It starts with just noting, with tension in my face, and slowly my awareness finds the movements that seem to address the tension in my face and move my head along it, seemingly getting deeper into it the longer the sit goes on.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:01:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5561572</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-28T07:01:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557397</link> <description>[quote=]&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;Arial&amp;#x2c;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;but there is no self besides.&amp;#034; Understanding it thus in these and other instances, he knows and sees for himself by noticing thus: &amp;#034;There is here only that pair: a material process as object, and a mental process of knowing it; and it is to that pair alone that the terms of conventional usage &amp;#039;being,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;person&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;soul,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;another,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;man&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;woman&amp;#039; refer. But apart from that dual process there is no separate person or being, I or another, man or woman.&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you Nikolai, you really came through!   I think I basically get it and lots of interesting links to look further into as well.  But this above quote caught my attention sooner, although it takes the conversation off on a tangent.  So the point of the concept of no self is there is no self OTHER THAN sensation and awareness of sensation?  Which in my my mind means something rather different than a concept of there is no self AT ALL.  Am I getting this right?  &lt;br /&gt;-Eva</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2014 00:46:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557397</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-16T00:46:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557298</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammaspread&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Page428&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.dhammaspread.org/Page428.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;When people first begin vipassana meditation their minds are usually not very calm, their samadhi (concentration) and sati (mindfulness) are somewhat weak, and they often forget to make mental notes. Thus, meditators should begin by noting ‘rising’ and ‘falling’ continuously and the rising and falling matter (rupa) of the abdomen will become more distinct. Then, the mind (nama) will understand that it has the purpose of knowing the rising and falling and will see that the rising and falling are two separate material events.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As the samadhi of the meditator develops, the meditator will then come to realize that the rising and falling matter and the mind that notes it are two different things; not the same. There is no self engaged in this process, just the rising object and the mind that notes it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This first knowledge marks the beginning of the end for self illusion. (In noticing the rising matter, the meditator will notice the middle part of the rising because it is more distinct.)&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:40:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557298</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T21:40:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557173</link> <description>Page 43&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;pdf_file&amp;#x2f;bm7insight&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/bm7insight.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:37:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557173</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T12:37:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557170</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;vmc128&amp;#x2e;8m&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;VipassanaTechniques&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;vmc128&amp;#x2e;8m&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;VipassanaTechniques&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://vmc128.8m.com/VipassanaTechniques/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;QUESTION 8:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;        &lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;Can the enumeration or itemization of phenomena result in Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana (the knowledge distinguishing between mind and body)?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;ANSWER 8:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;        &lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;A yogi cannot develop Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana just by enumerating or itemizing phenomena. Only when the yogi observe mind and body the moment they take place, will the yogi be able to spontaneously distinguish between mental and physical phenomena. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;That is really Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. (The discourse on Dhamma-cakka-pavattana Sutta)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;Real insight knowledge can be brought about by observing the present phenomena, but not by reasoning, analyzing, judging or itemizing: there are 81 types of worldly consciousness (Lokiya Citta), 52 kinds of mental constituents (Cetasika), 28 categories&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt; of matter; and so on. Such knowledge is just learning memory (Sanna), but not real knowledge based on one&amp;#039;s own experience. Think about what the 81 types of worldly consciousness (Lokiya Citta) are; whether they all can take place in us. Mahaggata con&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;sciousnesses, for example, belong to Jhanic persons only. Even though worldly,  Kriya consciousnesses only to Arahantas. How can a person experience an object which does not belong to him or her? Among 28 categories of matter, femininity is owned by wo&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;men, while masculinity by men. So one cannot experience another&amp;#039;s gender. So, itemizing phenomena which one does not really experience, how can it be the knowledge of ultimate truth? Is it not conceptual knowledge? The answer, if given honestly, will b&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;e: &amp;#034;Yes, it is just conceptual knowledge.&amp;#034; Thus, it is crystal clear that such conceptual knowledge, or just memory of learning cannot result in Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. As a matter of fact, a yogi cannot bring about even basic insight knowledge with&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;out observing mind and matter.  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Times&amp;#x20;New&amp;#x20;Roman"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:20:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557170</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T12:20:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557165</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #333333"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=""&gt;Stages of Insight-Knowledge&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #333333"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Also, the mental phenomena such as the act of contemplating, consciousness of thoughts, act of seeing, etc., are also perceived at every moment of contemplation as distinguished from material phenomena and other mental phenomena. Even at every moment of breathing, the body that is known and the knowing mind are observed and noted with clear distinction. This knowledge of discernment distinguishing between mind and matter is known as &amp;#034;namarupa-pariccheda ñana.&amp;#034; When this insight-knowledge has been developed many a time, the known material object such as the phenomena of &amp;#039;rising and falling&amp;#039; and the knowing mind which realizes the act of seeing, knowing, etc., are clearly understood as being only &lt;em&gt;rupa&lt;/em&gt; (matter that has no sensitivity of knowing things) and &amp;#039;nama&amp;#039; (mind which has the power or sense of knowing, seeing or feeling the material objects and mental activities) which in fact constitute the two main factors of this bodily existence.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #333333"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Apart from these two constituents of life existence, there is no &amp;#039;atta,&amp;#039; or Self, and knowing this well one becomes elated. This realization of knowledge in the course of contemplation is called &amp;#034;Ditthi- Visuddhi&amp;#034; (Purity of View). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On proceeding further with the contemplation, it will be appreciated for having perceived that the material and mental phenomena that are arising in the body are the results of cause and effect.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #333333"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;For illustration: The disciple is pleased for having perceived the fact that because of the mind intending to bend or stretch or move or change the posture, there arise the action of bending, stretching, moving; or changing; because of the fluctuations of temperature, condition in the physical body changes either by being hot or cold; and because of the partaking of food there arises formations of the physical energy. Again he perceives with satisfaction that because of the presence of the eye and visual object, ear and sound, etc., the act of seeing, hearing etc., has occurred; and because of the volitional attentiveness, the mind reaches its sense-object. Again, he perceives with entire satisfaction that because of &amp;#039;Avijja&amp;#039; (ignorance or delusion) things appear as being fine and pleasurable; because of &amp;#039;tanha&amp;#039; (cravings) all kinds of deeds are performed after premeditation, being willing to get better-off and delighted or obtain satisfaction: and because of attachment to such actions, thoughts and performances there arise afresh &amp;#039;viññana&amp;#039; (consciousness): and that the phenomenon of death is nothing but the eventual passing away or disappearance of such consciousness; and that the new life existence (another birth) is the resurgence of such mental consciousness together with the new corporeal body to be depended upon, and so forth.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:14:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557165</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T12:14:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557162</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #4e4e4e"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Myriad&amp;#x20;Pro&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Trebuchet&amp;#x20;MS&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 32px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;alohadharma&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;the-map&amp;#x2f;the-physio-cognitive-http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;alohadharma&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;the-map&amp;#x2f;the-physio-cognitive-stage&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/the-physio-cognitive-stage/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="color: #4e4e4e"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Myriad&amp;#x20;Pro&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Trebuchet&amp;#x20;MS&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 32px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Physio-Cognitive Stage&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The Physio-Cognitive Stage&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;alohadharma&amp;#x2e;files&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;physiocog&amp;#x2e;gif"&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;alohadharma&amp;#x2e;files&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;06&amp;#x2f;physiocog&amp;#x2e;gif&amp;#x3f;w&amp;#x3d;604" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Mind and Body&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Cause and Effect&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Three Characteristics&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;I call the first phase of mediation the physio-cognitive stage because the insights associated with it are primarily about the body, mind, and their connection and characteristics. This stage can feel pretty mundane, and practioners often don’t even know that they are in this stage. I had no idea that I had gone through it the first time it happened. It wasn’t until things got exciting that it became clear that I must have already gone through these and it wasn’t until I went through them many times that I was even able to see them clearly.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;em&gt;           &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;em&gt;Mind and Body&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;The physio-cognitive section of the path begins when the meditator enters into the stage of Mind and Body. During this stage the meditator’s mind begins to sync up with the beginnings of phenomena, and when they note whatever comes into awareness the meditator begins to distinguish their thoughts from their bodily sensations. This can seem pretty mundane and uneventful, but it is actually pretty valuable information. It is an understanding that is needed before any further insights are possible. For those who are particularly attuned to their own states, they may notice a subtle shift from &lt;em&gt;being&lt;/em&gt; the thoughts and sensations to &lt;em&gt;watching&lt;/em&gt; them.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;The primary insight that is gained in this stage is that the mind and the body are truly different. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course we all know that this is so on a cognitive level, but there is a big difference between knowing this and seeing it in real time. Actually seeing these truths as they are happening has a profound effect on the mind. Oddly, while the effect can be profound, in that certain doubts vanish, it is an effect that can be easy to miss. This is often true of many of the insights that occur. This is because the insights do not leave an imprint on us at a cognitive level, but at a much deeper level.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:09:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557162</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T12:09:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557158</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0066"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;homepage&amp;#x2e;ntlworld&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;pesala&amp;#x2f;Pandita&amp;#x2f;html&amp;#x2f;jhanas&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/html/jhanas.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Access to the First Vipassanā Jhāna Requires Insight into Mind and Matter&lt;/em&gt;It is not sufficient to have all five factors present for one to say one has attained the first vipassanā jhāna. The mind must also come to penetrate into the Dhamma a little bit, enough to see the interrelationship of mind and matter. At this time we say that access to the first vipassanā jhāna has occurred.A yogi whose mind is composed of these five jhānic factors will experience a new accuracy of mindfulness, a new level of success in sticking with the object. Intense rapture, happiness and comfort in the body may also arise. This could be the occasion for him or her to gloat over the wondrousness of the meditation practice. “Oh wow, I’m getting really precise and accurate. I even feel like I’m floating in the air!” You might recognize this reflection as a moment of attachment.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;This one is worth reading in Full, In This Very Life by U Pandita. There is more on the 1st Vipassana Jhana which encompasses the first nana of mind and body. </description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:59:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557158</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T11:59:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557155</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;knowledg&amp;#x2e;htm&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;knowledg&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt; Knowledge of the distinction between mind and body&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt; - nama-rupa paricheda-nana&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;When &lt;em&gt;khanika samadhi&lt;/em&gt; is established, the meditator notices that experience break up: Breathing and walking break up into distinct, separate events of rising/falling; lifting/moving/placing;etc. The distinction between physical experience (&lt;em&gt;rupa&lt;/em&gt;) and the quality of the knowing of the physical experience (&lt;em&gt;nama)&lt;strong&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;becomes apparent.&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Further divisions may become apparent - e.g., &amp;#034;seeing&amp;#034; consists of the interrelation between the eye, a visual object, the act of seeing, and the knowing of the act of seeing.`The attention may fall on any or all of these aspects. For example, sound in the form of &amp;#034;hearing a bird&amp;#034; may become sound as just sound; or sound as the knowing of sound.&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;In brief, the meditator sees there is just experience and the knowing of experience.&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:42:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557155</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T11:42:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557145</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;mahasi&amp;#x2f;progress&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;ch3&amp;#x2e;1"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch3.1&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Analytical knowledge of body and mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows: &amp;#034;The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is another; touching is another,&amp;#034; etc. In this way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily process that he notices. Further he realizes: &amp;#034;The knowing of the rising movement is one process; the knowing of the falling movement is another.&amp;#034; In that way he comes to know each mental act of noticing. Further he realizes: &amp;#034;The rising movement is one process; the knowing of it is another. The falling movement is one process; the knowing of it is another,&amp;#034; and so on. In that way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily and mental process. All that knowledge comes from simply noticing, not from reasoning; that is to say, it is knowledge by direct experience arrived at by the mere act of noticing, and not knowledge derived from ratiocination.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus, when seeing a visual object with the eye, the meditator knows how to distinguish each single factor involved: &amp;#034;The eye is one; the visual object is another; seeing is another, and knowing it is another.&amp;#034; The same manner applies in the case of the other sense functions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;For at the time, in each act of noticing, the meditator comes to know analytically the mental processes of noticing, and those of thinking and reflecting, knowing them for himself through direct knowledge by his experience thus: &amp;#034;They have the nature of going towards an object, inclining towards an object, cognizing an object.&amp;#034; On the other hand, he knows analytically the material processes going on in the whole body &amp;#x2014; which are here described as &amp;#034;the rising and falling movements of the abdomen,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;sitting,&amp;#034; etc., knowing them thus: &amp;#034;These have &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt;the nature of going or inclining towards an object, or of cognizing an object.&amp;#034; Such knowing is called &amp;#034;knowing matter (or the body) by its manifestation of non-determining.&amp;#034; For it is said in the &lt;em&gt;Mula-Tika,&lt;/em&gt; the &amp;#034;Principal Sub-commentary&amp;#034; to the Abhidhamma &lt;em&gt;Vibhanga:&lt;/em&gt; &amp;#034;In other words, &amp;#039;non-determining&amp;#039; (as in the passage quoted) should be understood as having no faculty of cognizing an object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Such knowledge as this, which analyzes in each act of noticing both the bodily process noticed and the mental process engaged in noticing, according to their true essential nature, is called &amp;#034;analytical knowledge of body and mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;When that knowledge has come to maturity, the meditator understands thus: &amp;#034;At the moment of breathing in, there is just the rising movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides; at the moment of breathing out, there is just the falling movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides.&amp;#034; Understanding it thus in these and other instances, he knows and sees for himself by noticing thus: &amp;#034;There is here only that pair: a material process as object, and a mental process of knowing it; and it is to that pair alone that the terms of conventional usage &amp;#039;being,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;person&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;soul,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;another,&amp;#039; &amp;#039;man&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;woman&amp;#039; refer. But apart from that dual process there is no separate person or being, I or another, man or woman.&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 10:50:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557145</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T10:50:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557142</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;p style="text-align: justify"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;vipassanadhura&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sixteen&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;1. Namarupa pariccheda nana: knowledge that can distinguish between mental and physical states.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In this nana, or state of wisdom or knowledge, the meditator is able to distinguish nama (mental phenomena) from rupa (material phenomena). For example, he is aware that the rising and falling movements of the abdomen are rupa and that the mind which acknowledges these movements is nama. A movement of the foot is rupa and the consciousness of that movement is nama.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p style="text-align: justify"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;The meditator can distinguish between nama and rupa with regard to the five senses as follows:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;li&gt;When seeing a form, the eyes and the color are rupa; the consciousness of the seeing is nama.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;When hearing a sound, the sound itself and the hearing are rupa, and consciousness of the hearing is nama.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;When smelling something, the smell itself and the nose are rupa, and the consciousness of the smell is nama.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;When tasting something, the taste and the tongue are rupa, and the consciousness of taste is nama.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;When touching something, whatever is cold, hot, soft or hard to the touch is rupa, and consciousness of the contact is nama.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p style="text-align: justify"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;In conclusion, in this nana the meditator realizes that the whole body is rupa and the mind (or consciousness of the sensations of the body) is nama. Only nama and rupa exist. There is no being, no individual self, no &amp;#034;I&amp;#034;, no &amp;#034;he&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;she,&amp;#034; etc. When sitting, the body and its movement are rupa and awareness of the sitting is nama. The act of standing is rupa and awareness of the standing is nama. The act of walking is rupa and the awareness of the walking is nama.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p style="text-align: justify"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 10:44:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557142</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T10:44:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557137</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eva M Nie:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I got the impression that you though it would be very helpful to many that that there be more and better descriptions of Mind and Body to help confused beginners.  Ironically, interpretations of your question ranged to almost everywhere other than much in the way of explanations/descriptions of Mind and Body.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Eva&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hi&lt;br /&gt;People have taken the time to give explanations and descriptions, there really isn&amp;#039;t that much more to add.The insight is the important step. &lt;br /&gt;With a bit of direction people usually pass through this stage quickly. Thank you to everyone who has had a go&lt;br /&gt;Cheers&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 10:28:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557137</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T10:28:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557068</link> <description>I got the impression that you though it would be very helpful to many that that there be more and better descriptions of Mind and Body to help confused beginners.  Ironically, interpretations of your question ranged to almost everywhere other than much in the way of explanations/descriptions of Mind and Body.   Sounds like you were frustrated since way back when people did not explain things to you back when you were a beginner and you feel like you wasted a lot of time and maybe things would have gone faster with better explanation.  That&amp;#039;s hard to say if you would have gone faster if things were different, maybe it wouldn&amp;#039;t have or maybe not,  but yes, it is irritating when people assume things about you and give you other answers other than the one you asked for, like assuming you were not able to get Mind and Body or that you only ask for  your own progress and not others,etc .  You probably easily remember all the frustration back from when you were a beginner and that is easily triggered when others take on a &amp;#039;doesn&amp;#039;t matter anyway&amp;#039; attitude.  Would a better description not be useful to many and so not worth bothering with here?    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Actually, I don&amp;#039;t understand the MCTB explanation of it myself.  I am pretty sure I have gone through A&amp;amp;P through EQ so theoretically, I should have done Mind and Body, but I don&amp;#039;t understand the explanations of it and I&amp;#039;m curious and would like to know if for no other reason than just the sake of knowing.  Maybe you just need to be heavily steeped in the traditions for a long time and learn a ton and another ton of terminology and subtly to understand a lot of these explanations.  From an outsider&amp;#039;s perspective, that&amp;#039;s how it seems to me.  Most explanations of terms are explained using multiple other industry terms, such that understanding anything via normal English is not common.  It&amp;#039;s not like I&amp;#039;m a bad student normally and my language comprehension has historically been considered to be quite good, but when I read some of this stuff, I frankly don&amp;#039;t know what the )^*#)&amp;amp;^ people are talking about!  Whereas some of the other stuff seems fairly obvious.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do sometimes wonder if many people don&amp;#039;t answer some of these questions simply because they actually just don&amp;#039;t know it well either or feel they don&amp;#039;t know it well enough to for sure speak without incorrectness and so would rather just keep quiet.  Another option is that people feel the question is so stupid that it&amp;#039;s not worth their time, but I suspect that&amp;#039;s not the reason, even if it might be easy to feel slighted if answers swayed anywhere in that general direction.  After all, mind and body is supposed to be elementary, apparently, from what I gather but since I am a total outsider, I have the convenience of not being suppposed to know anything so I can just admit to total confusion on the subject.   Am I the only one that doesn&amp;#039;t get it?  This board seems to describe itself in part as a place to discuss the map, so I can certainly see why a person would come here and expect to get more actual explanation than in other places and feel frustrated if it was not forthcoming.  Maybe it is because although this board seems anchored in part on the concepts of the map, this board is also said to be only for the hardcore and this simpler stuff maybe is considered uninteresting or not worth bothering with as being too elementary.       &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So is the &amp;#039;broken word&amp;#039; thing really an example of Mind and Body?  When I was a kid, many kids did that or talked about it on occasion, ie when you repeat a word enough, it can seem to lose its meaning.  I assumed it happened to everyone.  If there was any kid that didn&amp;#039;t understand it, then that kid was not admitting it publically, but then again, even as kids, people often hate to admit when they don&amp;#039;t understand something fully.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, something to consider for the long haul might be threads dedicated to one concept or stage at time, and various people&amp;#039;s explanations and descriptions of that concept all in the same thread.  People could put their 2 cents in and do their best,  Those threads might turn out to be good ones to organize or make sticky and you could just refer people back to the thread.  When teaching, it&amp;#039;s a good idea to explain things in different ways because each student also understand things in different ways. &lt;br /&gt;-Eva</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 03:35:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557068</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T03:35:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557020</link> <description>Thanks for bigning clarity to this discussion. The stuff you brought up were exactly what I was aiming for, with more refinement, ie the mushroom cutlure. I didn&amp;#039;t intend on getting testy, but I suppose I did nonetheless. I guess you can count on someone&amp;#039;s mind getting bent when they&amp;#039;re talking about something important to them and it gets pretty misconstrued.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m going to take you up on your proposition to be more rigorous with this thread.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:11:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557020</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T22:11:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556956</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I wonder what it would have been like if I had appreciation for the territory, if I knew that basically some things like those were going to happened. Instead it feels like I may have just wasted thousands of hours of time. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;some people have talent for meditation while others don&amp;#039;t so if you have such difficulty with 1st nana then maybe meditation is not your thing?&lt;br /&gt;or maybe noting method is not really suited for you and you should try something else?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:45:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556956</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T15:45:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556841</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Yes I you could say that&amp;#039;s what I&amp;#039;m saying. I&amp;#039;m disappointed that people are not interested more in making meditation accessible, especially when it&amp;#039;s an easy thing to do. Instead letting people like me languor rather than having a discussion about the territory of the early nanas so that people might be able to be guided well in that regard if it applied to them. But then it appeared like no one noticed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it goes? Why are we even talking about this and not just talking about the topic as it was raised, if you think it is interesting and important?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You are talking about the Mushroom Factor. Keep em in the dark and feed em shit. The &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x2b;More&amp;#x2b;on&amp;#x2b;the&amp;#x2b;Mushroom&amp;#x2b;Factor"&gt;Mushroom factor&lt;/a&gt; is something talked of here, or perhaps talked of in the past a lot more here now that there are less people not talking about maps, stages, and experiences. But this place and Daniel&amp;#039;s book MCTB were a direct reaction to that perceived factor.  Let&amp;#039;s see of we actually agree with your self-diagnosis of a broad 1st nana by showing us some patterns in your current practice. If not, then it&amp;#039;s hard to continue with this discussion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 08:02:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556841</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T08:02:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556838</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think what I&amp;#039;ve gone through has had any dark night nanas.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;How do you know? From people&amp;#039;s descriptions not matching your own experience? Isn&amp;#039;t that what you are frustrated at cocerning what you are calling pre-Ap experiences? &lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;One thing to keep in mind is that the experience of this and that nana can vary in how they present from yogi to yogi. One may not get kriyas at the 4th nana. One may not experience a &amp;#034;stubborn&amp;#039; experience in the dukkha nanas. It is best not to judge your experience too much up against others&amp;#039; desctiptions, though it helps when there are things we relate to to orient our practices. But when we deny our own progress because experiences are not 100% matches to this and that description, we simply set up a conceptual overlay which will influence what we do and don&amp;#039;t do in practice , which may or may not result in further progress.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If this is the dark night, then I&amp;#039;m surprised because this is relatively pretty easy -- although it has been really miserable when I&amp;#039;ve sat, it&amp;#039;s always felt like I am making progress during the sits. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Perhaps it is just 3rd nana, which with the very little info I have of your practice, is simply a guess based on a lot of reading others&amp;#039; experiences here as well as my own. Patterns need to be seen to make a more educated guess. Perhaps, only if you are truly interested, you could share your practice for a week or two in a designated thread, and described exatly what is occuring as you practice for 30 minutes to an hour each time? Up to you. Without patterns to be seen, it is hard to tell where you may be at, and all we can rely on is your own guess which may be tinged with your own objectification/proliferation/conceptualisation of what you are experiencing. &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve thought that the dark night would be stubborn in that regard, and much more chaotic. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;It can be, and sometimes it might not be &amp;#034;chaotic&amp;#034; nor &amp;#034;stubborn&amp;#034;. Depends on your past conditioning and how concentrated, stable, discerning your are.&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All the insights that have come have come in a pretty organized fashion, like for that amount of time it was obviously just those insights that I was working with. I thought the DN would be more chaotic. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;It is for a yogi lacking in a malleable, pliant mind. Perhaps you have different conditioning to yogis who experience it more chaotically. Perhaps you are talking about the 3rd nana. Need to see more patterns. &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There also is no cycling through the A&amp;amp;P. There is just the tone of the general sensations that I experience which come and go in a fairly predictable way throughout the day. No wild kriyas, just a general state pretty consistent from one moment to the next.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Perhaps that nana hasn&amp;#039;t matured yet and you are hovering around in the first three nanas. The point is, we don&amp;#039;t know. And from the little phenomenological descriptions you have given, I doubt you are talking only about the first nana, which is more pleasant than not pleasant, which is why you can samatha-ise it into the 1st samatha jhana. Without seeing further patterns, I think you are misadiagnosing yourself, assigning meaning to experiences which dont match up to what is talked about around here , and then getting into a tissy about people not relating and talking about it as you wish. Sounds like classic post-AP yogi stuff to me actually. But truthfully, I need to see more descrtiptions of your experience to see patterns. &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I am thinking that all of this stuff, pre A&amp;amp;P stuff, is floating leftover garbage from the past on the level of normal habit patterns rather than the upheaval in the paradigm of perception like what would come out of an A&amp;amp;P event. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Have you ever experienced the mind and body buzzing like you were lying on a vibrating bed, perhaps buzzing like you had electiricity surging through all parts? Even without kriyas, and lights, and fireworks, I&amp;#039;d classify this access as post-ap. It doesn&amp;#039;t have to be a huge perceptual change. That comes later on post-11th nana. &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I am open to thinking more about this, though. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Good. And people here are open to taking you seriously. You just have to be a bit clearer and perhaps share a bit more so we can see PATTERNS!&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If it turns out that what I&amp;#039;m saying is true, then great, it&amp;#039;s great to have that clarity. If it&amp;#039;s wrong for one reason of another, then I should know that too. More later&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;And you came to a place where we discuss this stuff openly and quite a bit. Trying to be clearer and less testy helps communication both ways.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My 2 cents are that you aren&amp;#039;t talking about the just the 1st nana. But I&amp;#039;d like to make a more educated guess with patterns you share with us here at the DhO. If not, frustration may simply be the result. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 07:59:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556838</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T07:59:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556830</link> <description>Yes I you could say that&amp;#039;s what I&amp;#039;m saying. I&amp;#039;m disappointed that people are not interested more in making meditation accessible, especially when it&amp;#039;s an easy thing to do. Instead letting people like me languor rather than having a discussion about the territory of the early nanas so that people might be able to be guided well in that regard if it applied to them. But then it appeared like no one noticed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it goes? Why are we even talking about this and not just talking about the topic as it was raised, if you think it is interesting and important?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 06:53:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556830</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T06:53:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556827</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Bizarrely, I actually had really fast noting as the anvil in my practice for like over a year and it is actually what was wrong with my practice. It was what was holding me up. I did it because I needed change, but it was just facile advice from the get go and didn&amp;#039;t bring me much insight. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is like no one paid attention to my experience to the point of not even wanting to know about it. Just do the &amp;#034;notes&amp;#034;. This applies to teachers, too. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And now I am here writing about a solution to the problem. But it&amp;#039;s not being interpreted like that, and evidently no one has any thoughts to add about it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please start a new thread, and describe the problem and your solution.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 06:38:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556827</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T06:38:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556824</link> <description>Right, right. Yeah, those are what I was referring to as being from Mind &amp;amp; Body. But now that you bring this up, I realize the only thing I am really saying is that they&amp;#039;re pre-A&amp;amp;P experiences. For some reason I assumed they were encompassed in Mind &amp;amp; Body. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for getting testy I don&amp;#039;t really mean to do it. I was a little confounded that the main idea of trying to address in greater detail the early stages wasn&amp;#039;t being spoken about or noticed. I thought it was stated pretty obviously from me. Maybe not, though. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, more about that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think what I&amp;#039;ve gone through has had any dark night nanas. If this is the dark night, then I&amp;#039;m surprised because this is relatively pretty easy -- although it has been really miserable when I&amp;#039;ve sat, it&amp;#039;s always felt like I am making progress during the sits. I&amp;#039;ve thought that the dark night would be stubborn in that regard, and much more chaotic. All the insights that have come have come in a pretty organized fashion, like for that amount of time it was obviously just those insights that I was working with. I thought the DN would be more chaotic. There also is no cycling through the A&amp;amp;P. There is just the tone of the general sensations that I experience which come and go in a fairly predictable way throughout the day. No wild kriyas, just a general state pretty consistent from one moment to the next.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I am thinking that all of this stuff, pre A&amp;amp;P stuff, is floating leftover garbage from the past on the level of normal habit patterns rather than the upheaval in the paradigm of perception like what would come out of an A&amp;amp;P event. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am open to thinking more about this, though. If it turns out that what I&amp;#039;m saying is true, then great, it&amp;#039;s great to have that clarity. If it&amp;#039;s wrong for one reason of another, then I should know that too. More later</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 06:38:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556824</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T06:38:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556821</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Why settle for that when you can Actually Address the problem just by being &lt;em&gt;interested&lt;/em&gt;??&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I wanted to hear out of people is that they&amp;#039;re actually paying attention to what composes the meditation experience, so that people who actually need it can access it, but what I&amp;#039;m getting from you guys is that &lt;em&gt;you only think about your own stuff&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea why you&amp;#039;re saying the DHO isn&amp;#039;t an online course, it&amp;#039;s like you&amp;#039;re justifying &lt;em&gt;your lack of interest in helping others&lt;/em&gt; along, no matter how basic, easy, and in-line-with-your interests that would be....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I added some emphasis to what you wrote. James, are you saying that we are not sufficiently interested in your own stuff?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If that is the case, please read the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;faqs"&gt;DhO FAQ page&lt;/a&gt; again, especially the sections on what is appropriate here and what is not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The topic you started is interesting and appropriate. I feel the discussion is not going well. I love discussing the maps and sharing the experiences of other meditators. Please share in the spirit of this place, and if you need to vent, feel free, and be open about it, for everyone&amp;#039;s sake.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 06:30:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556821</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T06:30:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556798</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I practiced a lot, really quite a bit, and I didn&amp;#039;t have appreciation for the territory I was in. I was very demanding of myself, for good reason.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the last year, I&amp;#039;ve made significant progress, from which you can understand why I needed a change so badly:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had a &lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;strange insight with the digits on my left hand where I felt a strangely strong vibration that stayed off cushion for about a week accompanied by thoughts of unpleasant horror movie like gore, slowly lessening throughout the week&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Really unpleasant sort of libidinous tensions in the lower abdomen&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Really heavy wrenching weight in my solar plexus&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Strange unpleasant cold hollow vomitting sensation in my chest&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Tension throughout the left side of my head from the left side of the tongue, through the teeth, into the eye and temple, in the jaw, and around the ear and back of head. It was constantly tensed for who knows, more than a decade&lt;/span&gt;, I&amp;#039;m 27 now, and I think it qualifies as body dismorphia. Reason being I had a bone condition and couldn&amp;#039;t walk straight until I was 17, and had other things bone condition-wise with the left side of my body that made it difficult to orient, I just dissociated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Serious tension in my right hip begetting lots and lots of anxiety. &lt;/span&gt;The problem was related to my bone condition that I had a spike of bone on the femoral neck on the front that my hip muscles had to stretch over.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Weird super heavy pain &lt;/span&gt;that came up during meditation for about two months after I had a surgery to fix the hip. It seemed to come out of a general sort of exoskeleton of like &amp;#039;rough perception&amp;#039; of my leg and stretched from my hip down to my ankle. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Strange airy sensation of anxiety in my left foot,&lt;/span&gt; it felt sort of like the nerves never really grew fully or something like that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;Body-wide anxiety and aching and heaviness, slowly getting lesser and lesser, eventually feeling okay just being in my body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So those are all the important ones. Before those, during very serious and looking back basically strenuous practice, I did encounter some really &lt;span style="color: #ff0000"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;tough aches in my upper back,&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt; but other than that just a couple brief and non permanent a&amp;amp;p experiences.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wonder what it would have been like if I had appreciation for the territory, if I knew that basically some things like those were going to happened. Instead it feels like I may have just wasted thousands of hours of time. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m a little confused as to why you are getting testy with people here. Are you saying that all the experiences in red above are all part and parcel of what you are calling the nana of mind and body?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If so, then perhaps there is a a talking past each other happening as some of those experiences point to other nanas arising in my own experience. I see 3rd and 6th nana expressed a bit in the very little phenomenological descriptions you have given thus far. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 04:38:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556798</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T04:38:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556781</link> <description>Hi James&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(sorry for my spelling I am not english speaking)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;there are teachers/traditions where they are really intrested whether the student get the first stage or not.&lt;br /&gt;how they know? they ask questions like &amp;#034;if you feel pain, who feels the pain&amp;#034;; &amp;#034;who sees the flower etc&amp;#034;? If the student has no idea what the question is about they sand him/her back to keep going with the noting practice. &lt;br /&gt;Next day again. In some days will be clear that the experience coming truth the senses is mind. How? &lt;br /&gt;If you practice to stay in present and note the phenomena arising in present moment you will realise that as long as you thinking you not able to see, hear etc. Will be more clear that the eye can not see, ear can not hear. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In Mahasi tradition you get plenty of dharma talks about the 6 sens organs and their objects (12 ayatanas - 18 Dhatus) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.mi-lam.org/pdf/AyatanasAndDhatus.pdf&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;then you keep going the practice and the stuff will be clear by itself. &lt;br /&gt;so teachers really care about the first stages but the student actually have no idea what is going on. &lt;br /&gt;If you follow the instructions the insight will arise naturally. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;cause&amp;amp;effect is the same: intention to lift the leg is the cause, lifting the left ist the effect, lifting the leg is the cause noting it is the effect etc.&lt;br /&gt;slowly they will get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;you don&amp;#039;t need to think about, you don&amp;#039;t need to analyse&lt;br /&gt;I guess if it is not arise then the student is not able to keep focus, so get lost in &amp;#034;own stuff&amp;#034; and not able to investigate the present. &lt;br /&gt;so they will leave early. or i don&amp;#039;t know what are they doing after.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with you it is important but same time my experience is that teachers really care about...&lt;br /&gt;and yes here in DhO the DN is more talked about so is good that you brought the topic up. </description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 02:45:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556781</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T02:45:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556776</link> <description>Hi Jake WM,&lt;br /&gt;A&amp;amp;P can be also subtle...it is not always wow huge ass-kicking firework etc. especially if you already cycle so you don&amp;#039;t need to worry about&lt;br /&gt;to much. Maybe you&amp;#039;ve already crossed many times not even knowing about. If you already meditating for a while and you find yourself in kind of depression then welcome in the DN... &lt;br /&gt;and yeah as you say as long as you keep noting the stuff it doesn&amp;#039;t matter anyway. </description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 02:19:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556776</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T02:19:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556767</link> <description>Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps if you could lead the discussion with what you believe the maps should detail for the first nanna there would be more discussion in the area you want. &lt;br /&gt;Name and form, nama and ruppa, &lt;br /&gt;standing, sitting is form &lt;br /&gt;I sit, I stand is nama&lt;br /&gt;What is the difference&lt;br /&gt;Notice with the physical there is also the mental&lt;br /&gt;This doesn&amp;#039;t have to be hard&lt;br /&gt;Observe again and again and then you start to see cause and affect&lt;br /&gt;The 5 elements meditation is great for the early stages and observing a quality leads to Jhanna &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this help&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 01:44:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556767</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T01:44:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556760</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jake WM:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a &amp;#034;holy shit&amp;#034; experience? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Both have happened in my experience, though &amp;#034;holy shit&amp;#034; moments haven&amp;#039;t been as common as &amp;#034;sudden happiness&amp;#034; moments.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interesting. The reason I asked was because recently I began to think that my glorious and blissful &amp;#034;a&amp;amp;p&amp;#034; experience was just the realization of mind and body, of thoughts not being &amp;#034;me&amp;#034;, just another sense. What followed was profound happiness for a few months, and then a deep depression. Sounds like the a&amp;amp;p but to this day I have trouble noticing the arising and passing of phenomena and due to that have been second guessing my place on the maps. In the scheme of things it doesn&amp;#039;t matter too much as long as I practice.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 00:32:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556760</guid> <dc:creator>Jake WM</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T00:32:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556756</link> <description>You&amp;#039;re not paying attention to what I wrote.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know all of what you just said. The only problem is that parts of it are just wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a lot of territory to the first nana, I&amp;#039;ve spent years going through it eradicating impurities that have prevented me from jumping up through the A&amp;amp;P.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I have experienced it. And it has addressed numerous problems I had in my body in this time, but no one oriented me towards that. As soon as that started happening, it was fine. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But it could have happened a lot sooner had I been oriented towards it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s like you&amp;#039;re not paying attention to this thread:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They may be quick for some people, but:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They are not quick for others, for others it entails a long process of purification, and this should be included in the maps.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 00:20:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556756</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T00:20:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556753</link> <description>James, the first nana tends to be very brief, and in the Burmese Theravada tradition, some teachers say that &amp;#034;true insight&amp;#034; doesn&amp;#039;t actually begin until the 4th nana, The Arising and Passing Away. This is at least part of the reason why the early nanas are often not discussed in detail. Once a meditator attains stream entry, they cycle starting from 4th nana, so the early nanas do not arise until the next path begins. So we can talk all day about the higher insight stages, since enlightened beings cycle through them, but the early nanas simply do not manifest very often.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you have meditated with any degree of diligence, it is almost inconceivable that you have not attained at least the first nana, Mind and Body. As I said earlier, I did not know what it was until much later. I did not even really realize that anything special was happening. It is quite common to sail through nanas and not realize what happened, and it is likely that you have gone past them without realizing it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From your first post,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I&amp;#039;m wondering if I&amp;#039;m wrong about this and just managed to not see it all this time. It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are &amp;#039;naturals&amp;#039; with this stage, and therefore it sort of &amp;#039;goes without saying&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Again, Mind and Body, and the three early nanas in general, tend to be very quick, and cannot be repeated after path. It&amp;#039;s easy to miss them. If you have practiced with any kind of mindfulness at all, you have almost certainly been through these early nanas. I wish I could be of more assistance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you feel lost on the maps? &lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 00:01:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556753</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T00:01:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556749</link> <description>Well, if you read what I wrote you seem to have missed the point of it. The point was that those garden variety kickers like what you said aren&amp;#039;t sufficiently appropriate for people in these situations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You&amp;#039;re like, meditators waste thousands of hours routinely. Really? You are satisfied with that explanation. That&amp;#039;s incredible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bizarrely, I actually had really fast noting as the anvil in my practice for like over a year and it is actually what was wrong with my practice. It was what was holding me up. I did it because I needed change, but it was just facile advice from the get go and didn&amp;#039;t bring me much insight. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is like no one paid attention to my experience to the point of not even wanting to know about it. Just do the &amp;#034;notes&amp;#034;. This applies to teachers, too. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And now I am here writing about a solution to the problem. But it&amp;#039;s not being interpreted like that, and evidently no one has any thoughts to add about it.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 23:29:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556749</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T23:29:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556746</link> <description>Well, I suppose the underlying criticism is there, but its for meditators in general. They evidently aren&amp;#039;t interested in making a reliable tool for a better life accessible. It&amp;#039;s just something along the lines of &amp;#034;that&amp;#039;s your karma&amp;#034;. Whatever the hell that means! Why settle for that when you can Actually Address the problem just by being interested??&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know why you&amp;#039;re introducing some &amp;#034;wanting a teacher&amp;#034; dynamic. Obviously people want teachers. Obviously people want to have an effective experience in meditation. Do you need some official lineage of teachers to do that? Or could you just have people who are interested in meditation and interested in what it takes to make it accessible. Like people who might be on this forum, reading this, being interested in meditation so that people don&amp;#039;t have to starve on Mount McKinley to find out. Just little pointers here and there. It&amp;#039;s just about being interested, and it even seems like many meditation teachers aren&amp;#039;t even interested. Enough&amp;#039;s enough for them, who really cares how many people flounder for no really good reason.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I wanted to hear out of people is that they&amp;#039;re actually paying attention to what composes the meditation experience, so that people who actually need it can access it, but what I&amp;#039;m getting from you guys is that you only think about your own stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe this is just this bizarre because other morons come on here and criticize the DHO blah blah. What I am writing about is something that happened to me and an evidently simple solution to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea why you&amp;#039;re saying the DHO isn&amp;#039;t an online course, it&amp;#039;s like you&amp;#039;re justifying your lack of interest in helping others along, no matter how basic, easy, and in-line-with-your interests that would be....</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 23:27:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556746</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T23:27:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556733</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jake WM:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a &amp;#034;holy shit&amp;#034; experience? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Both have happened in my experience, though &amp;#034;holy shit&amp;#034; moments haven&amp;#039;t been as common as &amp;#034;sudden happiness&amp;#034; moments.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:52:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556733</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T22:52:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556716</link> <description>Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a &amp;#034;holy shit&amp;#034; experience? </description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:44:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556716</guid> <dc:creator>Jake WM</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T22:44:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556709</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh really? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or is that not true, as my experience demonstrates. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe there are some cases where the stage actually needs to be set for the meditator so that they can practice appropriately. So they know what to do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Saying they just need to pay bare attention to the present moment is an oversimplification that helps no one. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wasn&amp;#039;t really frustrated when I wrote this, of course I think it blows how I may have wasted thousands of hours, but I am a little wowed now that you respond with that simple one liner like you didn&amp;#039;t read or think about anything I wrote.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its cases like where people are &amp;#034;Extremely Fucking Miserable&amp;#034; where the situation approaches &amp;#034;&lt;u&gt;change&lt;/u&gt; or just kill themself&amp;#034;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I read everything you wrote. As for &lt;strong&gt;my&lt;/strong&gt; experience, I made it all the way to nana #11, Equanimity, without knowing what the Progress of Insight was, and only having a crude understanding of Buddhism. In addition, stream entry occurs in many traditions outside of Buddhism, e.g. contemplative Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Meditators waste thousands of hours, or even their entire lives, all the time. They spin around lost in thought or try to work on their psychological baggage instead of examining the sensations that compose the present moment. It takes a lot of mental discipline to stay on the level of bare sensations for any length of time. Just because something is simple, doesn&amp;#039;t mean it is easy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are having trouble attaining to early nanas, try really fast noting, as it tends to move things along.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:42:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556709</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T22:42:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556673</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;m saying that the maps are under utilized in teaching of this stuff, bringing this up to see what people think, not just about &amp;#034;the discussion here&amp;#034;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All right, so welcome to the DhO, where the maps, their application to practice and so on is a major topic.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;m bringing it up because I think its something important in teaching meditation that unbelievably to me was missed by almost every teacher I had except one (LUCKY?).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good teachers are hard to find, is that what you&amp;#039;re saying?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Evidently though it seems like the discussion here is not interested in teaching meditation but just doing meditation for their selves regardless of other people.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The DhO is not an online course. There are no teachers here (taking students, in a teacher role). If you are after such things, you&amp;#039;ll have to find them somewhere else. But if you practice meditation (alone or guided by a teacher) and like to discuss with like-minded people (&amp;#034;good spiritual friends&amp;#034; in Buddhist language), you will probably get a lot out of participating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It is a little confounding because some people get into meditation to address suffering, and then some people get into meditation to address even deeper suffering and then can&amp;#039;t do it because there&amp;#039;s no appreciation for talking about something that&amp;#039;s pretty elementary, and they fail at it and then just go kill themselves or something, while the people who got into meditation who it worked for are just blissing out on jhanas and getting nirodha samapati and not thinking at all about how simple and easy it would have been to actually consider the situation of these evidently ungifted practitioners and tell them what they need instead of throwing everyone into an unexamined cookie cutter approach to no avail for these ungifted practitioners despite how the answer they need is just hanging around in plain sight the whole time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sure, that&amp;#039;s what a good teacher (whom you&amp;#039;ve found, going by your own words) can do for people. Are you just venting, or are you obliquely criticizing the DhO regulars for not being teachers in an online retreat center? I&amp;#039;m having difficulties understanding your posts in any other sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 20:35:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556673</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T20:35:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556578</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m saying that the maps are under utilized in teaching of this stuff, bringing this up to see what people think, not just about &amp;#034;the discussion here&amp;#034;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m bringing it up because I think its something important in teaching meditation that unbelievably to me was missed by almost every teacher I had except one (LUCKY?).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Evidently though it seems like the discussion here is not interested in teaching meditation but just doing meditation for their selves regardless of other people. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is a little confounding because some people get into meditation to address suffering, and then some people get into meditation to address even deeper suffering and then can&amp;#039;t do it because there&amp;#039;s no appreciation for talking about something that&amp;#039;s pretty elementary, and they fail at it and then just go kill themselves or something, while the people who got into meditation who it worked for are just blissing out on jhanas and getting nirodha samapati and not thinking at all about how simple and easy it would have been to actually consider the situation of these evidently ungifted practitioners and tell them what they need instead of throwing everyone into an unexamined cookie cutter approach to no avail for these ungifted practitioners despite how the answer they need is just hanging around in plain sight the whole time.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:56:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556578</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T16:56:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556575</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh really? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or is that not true, as my experience demonstrates. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe there are some cases where the stage actually needs to be set for the meditator so that they can practice appropriately. So they know what to do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Saying they just need to pay bare attention to the present moment is an oversimplification that helps no one. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wasn&amp;#039;t really frustrated when I wrote this, of course I think it blows how I may have wasted thousands of hours, but I am a little wowed now that you respond with that simple one liner like you didn&amp;#039;t read or think about anything I wrote.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its cases like where people are &amp;#034;Extremely Fucking Miserable&amp;#034; where the situation approaches &amp;#034;&lt;u&gt;change&lt;/u&gt; or just kill themself&amp;#034;.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:45:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556575</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T16:45:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556543</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Well, back to the original topic about the maps evidently not containing or the discussion not representing the numerous shades of insight gotten in the first nana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I am sitting here like &amp;#034;really?&amp;#034; Is that really what happened?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not understand your question. Are you asking the other participants here whether they think what you describe is all first ñana stuff? Or are you asking whether first ñana stuff is really underrepresented in discussions here? I, and from what I gather the other participants, understood your original topic in the second sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I thought there would be some interest in this here at a DIY pragmatic dharma forum sort of founded off a book that attests to the value of knowledge about the maps, but no one has really responded like so. It&amp;#039;s great to point out that Mind &amp;amp; Body is an important insight to obtain, but what about portraying it as it is?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t like to say this but talk about Not Making The Dharma Accesible?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please re-state your question. You are obviously frustrated about something, but I really don&amp;#039;t see what it is that you are saying here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 14:16:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556543</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T14:16:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556514</link> <description>If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. </description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 12:05:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556514</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T12:05:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556482</link> <description>Okay. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What about teaching people what they need to be taught, whatever that is? Shouldn&amp;#039;t this be at least somewhat of a staple in the DIY meditation world? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or, those people who need to hear it can just go wallow around for years until they figure it out?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 05:53:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556482</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T05:53:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556475</link> <description>I agree with Florian that mind&amp;amp;body can arise very naturaly for people without meditation practice. &lt;br /&gt;It is important stage because without this there is no chance for the rest to arise as this is the first one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe people talk less about the first 3 stages because most of the meditators on a retreat hit the A&amp;amp;P and &lt;br /&gt;ones you hit A&amp;amp;P then you will cycle between A&amp;amp;P and EQ until you get frution. &lt;br /&gt;So we spent definitaly more time in DN then in the first 3 stages so more to talk about. </description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 05:42:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556475</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T05:42:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556461</link> <description>That being said, all those harshly won insights all came with the same type of phenomena as you three mention: taking on an &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034; just being quality.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 03:16:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556461</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T03:16:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556458</link> <description>Well, back to the original topic about the maps evidently not containing or the discussion not representing the numerous shades of insight gotten in the first nana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This was not just absent in the Pragmatic Dharma scene but also in traditional Buddhist scenes like Goenka and the folks at IMS. And it wasn&amp;#039;t addressed by numerous people in the Shambhala lineage as well, in addition to a bona fide Tibetan ex-llama, now technically a layman. And a couple catholic Priests, and a handful of professional yoga teachers.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I am sitting here like &amp;#034;really?&amp;#034; Is that really what happened? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thought there would be some interest in this here at a DIY pragmatic dharma forum sort of founded off a book that attests to the value of knowledge about the maps, but no one has really responded like so. It&amp;#039;s great to point out that Mind &amp;amp; Body is an important insight to obtain, but what about portraying it as it is?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t like to say this but talk about Not Making The Dharma Accesible? </description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 03:02:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556458</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T03:02:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556386</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;When I was a child sometimes I would lay in bed and repeat a word.  Two syllable words were best.  One I remember was &amp;#034;table&amp;#034;.  I would repeat it mentally until it became what I called &amp;#034;not a word anymore&amp;#034;.  I asked my mother &amp;#034;what do you call it when a word isn&amp;#039;t a word anymore?&amp;#034;. Which led to one of those sputtering conversations that teach you never to ask thing like that again.  This was probably when I was 7 or 8, and never did it after that age.  Since I started practicing as an adult i&amp;#039;ve often wondered what would have happened if I had kept doing that (stream entry by 4th grade? hehe).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve never associated this with the 1st nana, just some increasing stae of concentration.  How does this fit into mind &amp;amp; body?  I don&amp;#039;t get it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s Daniel&amp;#039;s description from &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x2b;1&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x2b;MInd&amp;#x2b;and&amp;#x2b;Body"&gt;MCTB Mind and Body&lt;/a&gt;: &lt;em&gt;There is this sudden shift, and mental phenomena shift out away from the illusory sense of “the watcher” and are just out there in the world with the sensations of the other five sense doors. This is an important insight, as it shows us clearly and directly that we are not “our” mind or “our” body.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So that&amp;#039;s how I understand this ñana / knowledge / insight to present itself in the case of mind objects like words. The watcher is made of words to the extent that it is a commentator, and when they shift out and away from the assumed watcher, they can&amp;#039;t be used for purposes of watcher-maintenance any more. Since that quality is tied into the semantic field of every word, when it drops out of the picture, words seem &amp;#034;broken&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;not words any more&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With visualized mind objects, this ñana presents itself more straightforwardly, by interpreted as a sense of distance, an &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034; quality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With the smell, I&amp;#039;m less sure, but other aspects of the experience fit in nicely with understanding it as mind &amp;amp; body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2014 20:41:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556386</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-12T20:41:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556369</link> <description>[quote=Florian Wep&lt;br /&gt;]&lt;br /&gt;This is also the case with me: I have memories of playing mind games at bedtime when I wasn&amp;#039;t tired but was sent to bed nonetheless. The most vivid memory is of visualizing the letters of a short word and simultaneously trying to &amp;#034;hear&amp;#034; how it sounded, and the shift into first ñana was when the word and letters were suddenly &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034;, and had lost their meaning somehow. I got so &amp;#034;good&amp;#034; at this that with time, any word I&amp;#039;d repeat mentally for a short time would &amp;#034;get broken&amp;#034; (as I called it). I also have memories of getting into mind&amp;amp;body via smells, when we were on home leave to Germany (we were living in South Africa at the time) and there were a lot of unfamiliar smells around. With smells, the &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034; quality was very weird, involving sensations in my sinuses that I called &amp;#034;splintering&amp;#034; (like watching a glass object burst, but not visual or auditory, and the perception was localized in the frontal sinuses somehow).&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I was a child sometimes I would lay in bed and repeat a word.  Two syllable words were best.  One I remember was &amp;#034;table&amp;#034;.  I would repeat it mentally until it became what I called &amp;#034;not a word anymore&amp;#034;.  I asked my mother &amp;#034;what do you call it when a word isn&amp;#039;t a word anymore?&amp;#034;. Which led to one of those sputtering conversations that teach you never to ask thing like that again.  This was probably when I was 7 or 8, and never did it after that age.  Since I started practicing as an adult i&amp;#039;ve often wondered what would have happened if I had kept doing that (stream entry by 4th grade? hehe).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve never associated this with the 1st nana, just some increasing stae of concentration.  How does this fit into mind &amp;amp; body?  I don&amp;#039;t get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2014 19:22:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556369</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-12T19:22:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554995</link> <description>My first experience of Mind and Body, that I remember, was when I first got into meditation. I was trying a mantra and basically just being really frustrated about not being able to stay concentrated, but I kept at it because everyone always talked about how amazing meditation was. One day, The mantra suddenly became very clear, and my mind was suddenly quieter than before. The mantra was now &amp;#034;out there,&amp;#034; but I didn&amp;#039;t have the conceptual framework to fully understand or describe what had happened.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also used to experience it quite a bit when I switched to anapanasati a few months later, but again, I didn&amp;#039;t have any conceptual frameworks to understand what it was. All I knew was that the breath became much crisper and more solid, and my mind was quieter. Even when I read about the progress of insight in MCTB, I read about Mind and Body and thought, &amp;#034;Huh?&amp;#034; because I didn&amp;#039;t fully comprehend what it entailed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Most of the heavy lifting is done in the early nanas and I think navigating them is incredibly important. A&amp;amp;P tends to take care of itself, the dark night goes all the way to Re-Observation whether you want it to or not, and Equanimity has its own traps but it tends to be very pleasant. In many ways, moving through the nanas 1-3 is the most important part of a meditators career.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2014 02:23:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554995</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-11T02:23:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554904</link> <description>To be fair, I haven&amp;#039;t participated in the DHO throughout my practice, but I was at other sites.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I practiced a lot, really quite a bit, and I didn&amp;#039;t have appreciation for the territory I was in. I was very demanding of myself, for good reason.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the last year, I&amp;#039;ve made significant progress, from which you can understand why I needed a change so badly:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had a strange insight with the digits on my left hand where I felt a strangely strong vibration that stayed off cushion for about a week accompanied by thoughts of unpleasant horror movie like gore, slowly lessening throughout the week.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Really unpleasant sort of libidinous tensions in the lower abdomen&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Really heavy wrenching weight in my solar plexus&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Strange unpleasant cold hollow vomitting sensation in my chest&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Tension throughout the left side of my head from the left side of the tongue, through the teeth, into the eye and temple, in the jaw, and around the ear and back of head. It was constantly tensed for who knows, more than a decade, I&amp;#039;m 27 now, and I think it qualifies as body dismorphia. Reason being I had a bone condition and couldn&amp;#039;t walk straight until I was 17, and had other things bone condition-wise with the left side of my body that made it difficult to orient, I just dissociated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Serious tension in my right hip begetting lots and lots of anxiety. The problem was related to my bone condition that I had a spike of bone on the femoral neck on the front that my hip muscles had to stretch over.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Weird super heavy pain that came up during meditation for about two months after I had a surgery to fix the hip. It seemed to come out of a general sort of exoskeleton of like &amp;#039;rough perception&amp;#039; of my leg and stretched from my hip down to my ankle. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Strange airy sensation of anxiety in my left foot, it felt sort of like the nerves never really grew fully or something like that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Body-wide anxiety and aching and heaviness, slowly getting lesser and lesser, eventually feeling okay just being in my body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So those are all the important ones. Before those, during very serious and looking back basically strenuous practice, I did encounter some really tough aches in my upper back, but other than that just a couple brief and non permanent a&amp;amp;p experiences.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wonder what it would have been like if I had appreciation for the territory, if I knew that basically some things like those were going to happened. Instead it feels like I may have just wasted thousands of hours of time. </description> <pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2014 18:10:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554904</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-10T18:10:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554820</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are &amp;#039;naturals&amp;#039; with this stage, and therefore it sort of &amp;#039;goes without saying&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interesting observation. I know a few people who got into the first ñana in childhood.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is also the case with me: I have memories of playing mind games at bedtime when I wasn&amp;#039;t tired but was sent to bed nonetheless. The most vivid memory is of visualizing the letters of a short word and simultaneously trying to &amp;#034;hear&amp;#034; how it sounded, and the shift into first ñana was when the word and letters were suddenly &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034;, and had lost their meaning somehow. I got so &amp;#034;good&amp;#034; at this that with time, any word I&amp;#039;d repeat mentally for a short time would &amp;#034;get broken&amp;#034; (as I called it). I also have memories of getting into mind&amp;amp;body via smells, when we were on home leave to Germany (we were living in South Africa at the time) and there were a lot of unfamiliar smells around. With smells, the &amp;#034;out there&amp;#034; quality was very weird, involving sensations in my sinuses that I called &amp;#034;splintering&amp;#034; (like watching a glass object burst, but not visual or auditory, and the perception was localized in the frontal sinuses somehow).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since I did mind games and relaxation exercises and guided metitations and religious devotional practices all throughout my childhood and adolescence, I was, as you say, very familiar with the territory when I came across the maps.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe the DhO being self-selecting to a large degree, people here really tend to treat this one as almost not worth mentioning, like you say.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;More descriptions?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2014 09:36:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554820</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-10T09:36:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Nana #1 Mind and Body</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554708</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been noticing for a good time now that in the discussion of the maps, there is very much appreciation for nanas 5 until fruition, but very little mention, at least when it comes to walking people through their practice, of the territory encompassed by just mind &amp;amp; body.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m wondering if I&amp;#039;m wrong about this and just managed to not see it all this time. It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are &amp;#039;naturals&amp;#039; with this stage, and therefore it sort of &amp;#039;goes without saying&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What&amp;#039;s everyone elses ideas?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2014 00:44:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554708</guid> <dc:creator>James</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-10T00:44:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Cycling up and down the nanas [John Power] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527540</link> <description>Cycling up and down the nanas [John Power] &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;John Power - 2014-04-29 09:38:20 - Cycling up and down the nanas&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;I posted this topic at the &amp;#039;books and websites&amp;#039; section, but it also belongs here.&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The first post&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a question about the following statement in the MCTB:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Once someone has crossed the Arising and Passing Event, one will&lt;br /&gt;enter the Dark Night regardless of whether one wants to or not. It&lt;br /&gt;doesnít matter if you practice from this point on; once you cross the&lt;br /&gt;A&amp;amp;P you are in the Dark Night to some degree (i.e. are a Dark Night&lt;br /&gt;Yogi) until you figure out how to get through it, and if you do get&lt;br /&gt;through it without getting to the first stage of enlightenment, you will&lt;br /&gt;have to go through it again and again until you do. I mean this in the&lt;br /&gt;most absolute terms.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So ones crossed A&amp;amp;P you enter the DN, even if you stop practising. When don&amp;#039;t get the first stage of enlightenment you fall back.But how can it be that some fall back to stages below A&amp;amp;P? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example: 1,5 years ago: crossed A&amp;amp;P on retreat went through DN, then after retreat stopped practising so much then few months later practising more again, experienced DN (fear, misery, disgust) again for at least 6 month (heavy period). Then few months later (apparantly felt back) crossed A&amp;amp;P (could be EQ?) again, few months later I think I was in Dissolution (or RE-O). A month ago crossed A&amp;amp;P and am now still in Dissolution. I have only read MCTB a month ago so it is hard to analyse and diagnose those experiences I had in the past.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another statement:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Dissolution feels like a very natural place to stop practicing, the only problem being that the&lt;br /&gt;later stages (Fear and the rest) tend to follow it soon enough even if one stops, though less intense practice leads to a less intense, if often prolonged, Dark Night.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would appreciate if someone can help me with these questions. Thanks in advance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The link to the original topic in section &amp;#039;books and websites&amp;#039;: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5461819&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tom moylan - 2014-04-29 11:21:04 - RE: Cycling up and down the nanas&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So ones crossed A&amp;amp;P you enter the DN, even if you stop practising. When don&amp;#039;t get the first stage of enlightenment you fall back.But how can it be that some fall back to stages below A&amp;amp;P? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is pretty clear.  Until one has stream entry your meditation does not &amp;#034;start&amp;#034; at the A&amp;amp;P, after that milestone is reached, it does.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The logical corrolary is that ones pre-SE sits start pre-A&amp;amp;P.  Think about it. If you stop meditating completely for an extended period of time you will lose touch with those qualities of mind you have developed.  Some might stick and be more easily reached at a later time but they are not permanently written into your brainware yet.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tom</description> <pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2014 09:55:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527540</guid> <dc:creator>Migration 6.2 Daemon</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-07T09:55:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5451483</link> <description>perhaps this is my buddhist conditioning, but I take issues with 2) the soul thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;you can find what might be called evidence for such a thing, but you can&amp;#039;t actually find the thing. that is relevant.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:39:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5451483</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-24T07:39:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5450379</link> <description>Additionally, I will add this clarification:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are three main phenomenal processes at work in our lives here on Earth..&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. The ultimate nature of all phenomena&lt;br /&gt;2. Our individual souls, or &amp;#039;true self&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;3. The illusion of duality&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The ultimate nature of phenomena is the true nature of all things. It is the great oneness at the basis of all things. From this, nothing is ever separated. The oneness exists eternally, and without change, yet is ever changing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Our individual souls are our own unique awareness. We are all individuals within the greater framework of cosmic unity. As individuals we naturally seek always to transcend our current state of being in order to gain greater awareness. This progression is without clear limit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The illusion of duality is that to which we are subject here on Earth. We believe ourselves to be separate and lasting individuals in a sense that is wholly un-reflective of our true nature (ultimate reality). This illusion can be overcome entirely, and must be in order for one to return to state of wholeness, which is our goal.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus most basically we suffer from delusion as to our true nature. Due to this we cannot acknowledge our true self&amp;#039;s or souls. When we overcome our fixed dualistic attitudes, or blind grasping at concepts, taking that which is illusory to be solid and lasting, we realize the true nature of all things is in union and was never been otherwise. Simultaneously we acknowledge our genuine individual nature, and path of boundless development. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus it has been spoken!! ha. Anyone have opinions on this?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2014 23:17:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5450379</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-23T23:17:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Theosophy Initiation map</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5449358</link> <description>http://tswiki.net/mywiki/index.php?title=Initiation&lt;br /&gt;Charles Webster Leadbeater, &amp;#034;The Masters and the Path&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;First Initiation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first initiation expands the consciousness of the disciple into the Buddhic plane:&lt;br /&gt;The new Initiate . . . is born into this new life of the Spirit, and the expansion of consciousness he attains consists in his having opened to him, for the first time, that great spiritual world in which all truths are known by Intuition, not by reason­ing; in which the eyes of the Spirit are opened, and direct knowledge of spiritual truths is gained; knowledge becomes intuitive, instead of rational. &lt;br /&gt;When the great ceremonial is over, then it is that, either by his own Teacher or by some high disciple to whom the work is delegated, the new Initiate finds open within him that new consciousness which is gradually to grow, so that he may master the knowledge which at first is only presented to him in a dazzling panorama. Because of that new world into which he is born, the first of the great Initiations is spoken of as “the second birth”, the “birth of the Spirit”. He has become now the twice­-born. . . .[4]&lt;br /&gt;The ego having brought the lower self into harmony with himself is now reaching upwards into the buddhic plane, the plane of unity. It is only in this way that the man can begin to cast off the delusion of self which stands in the way of his further progress, and that is why the buddhic experience is necessary at the first Initiation.[5]&lt;br /&gt;After this, the work of the initiate is to ascend through the buddhic plane:&lt;br /&gt;Having passed the first Initiation and consciously entered the buddhic plane, this work of developing himself on sub-plane after sub-plane now lies before the candidate, in order that he may get rid of the three great fetters, as they are technically called, which embarrass his further progress.[6]&lt;br /&gt;The three great feathers the candidate to the Second Initiation has to get rid of has been described as the delusion of self (or sense of separateness), doubt or uncertainty regarding the fundamental laws of karma, reincarnation, etc., and superstition, as the idea that any particular religion or ceremony are indispensable.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Second Initiation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When those three fetters are utterly cast aside, when they no longer have power to hold him back, then he has grown to young manhood, when he is ready to pass the second of the great Initiations. In the Christian drama it is called the Baptism. It is written that the Spirit of God came down upon Jesus, and abode with Him. That is the Christian form; the Spirit comes down, the Spirit of Intuition, and before he can go further, to the third Initiation, he must learn to bring it down, through his enlarged causal and mental bodies, to his physical consciousness, so that it may “abide on him”, and guide him.[7]&lt;br /&gt;A very great expansion and development of the mental body takes place in connection with this second Initiation, but it is usually some years before the effects of this can show themselves in the physical brain. As they begin to do so they unquestionably put a great strain upon that brain, as it cannot be instantaneously tuned to the necessary pitch.[8]&lt;br /&gt;At this stage no additional fetters are cast off, but it is usually a period of considerable psychic and intellectual advancement. If what are commonly called psychic faculties have not been previously acquired, it is the tradition that they should be developed at this stage.[9]&lt;br /&gt;The period after the taking of the second Initiation is in many ways the most dangerous on the Path. . . . In nearly all cases the danger comes through pride; if there is the least tinge of pride in the man&amp;#039; s nature, he is in serious risk of a fall. . . . and if he once starts on that line he will have a terribly hard time getting back again. Nothing but unceasing and increasing vigilance can enable him to pass through this stage successfully, and it must be his constant endeavour to kill out every trace of pride, selfishness and prejudice.[10]&lt;br /&gt;It is said that he who has reached this initiation should need only one more incarnation before attaining the third and fourth Initiations.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Third Initiation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just as the second Initiation is principally concerned with the quickening of the lower mental body, so at this stage the causal body is especially developed. The ego is brought more closely into touch with the Monad, and is thus transfigured in very truth. Even the personality is affected by that wondrous outpouring. The higher and the lower self became one at the first Initiation, and that unity is never lost, but the development of the higher self that now takes place can never be mirrored in the lower worlds of form, although the two are one to the greatest possible extent.[11]&lt;br /&gt;Once the third Initiation is attained, it is expected that the initiate will attain the fourth Initiation in the same incarnation, after which there is no compulsory physical rebirth.&lt;br /&gt;During the time which intervenes between the third and the fourth Initiations, two more weaknesses have to be got rid of for ever, attraction and repulsion to all outer things . . . so the disciple learns in this stage to rise above attractions and repulsions, to cast them aside for ever; they no longer have power to touch him.[12]&lt;br /&gt;While in this stage he has to throw off any lingering remains of what are called the fourth and fifth fetters, kamaraga and patigha, attachment to the enjoyment of sensation, typified by earthly love, and all possibility of anger or hatred. The aspirant must free himself from the possibility of being enslaved in any way by external things. It is not by any means that he will not feel the attraction of what is pleasant or beautiful or clean, nor the repulsion for the opposites of these things. He will still take them into account in the course of his work; but he will not let them be a deciding element in duty, and will override them entirely on those emergent occasions when it is necessary for his work.[13]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Fourth Initiation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Between the third Initiation and the fourth there is that gulf of silence, where the disciple hangs alone in the void with nothing on earth to trust to, nothing in heaven to look to, no friend whose heart can be relied upon - nay, even the vision of the Supreme blurred and dimmed. It is symbolised by the Agony in the Garden, where the human heart cries out “If it be possible, let this cup pass away”, and still the human will arises, strong in renuncia­tion: “Nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done”.[14]&lt;br /&gt;The attainment of this Initiation is said to involve the hardest trial in the path, after which comes the prize of the last initiation in the human kingdom. It is sometimes compared with crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus:&lt;br /&gt;Onward he passes through the stages of the Passion; sees his beloved flee; sees himself betrayed, denied, rejected, until at last, upon the cross of agony, he is held up for all men to mock at, for all men to despise; sees at last no friend, but only a ring of enemies triumphant; hears the taunt: “He saved others; himself he cannot save” - the deepest truth of all; utters at last the cry of the breaking heart: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” and in that uttermost loneliness finds himself for evermore; losing the God without him, he finds the God within. For when the great darkness comes down, and nothing can be seen, then arises the light of the Spirit in the human heart, and then through the darkness are heard the final words of triumphant success: “It is finished”. Those are the words that ring out from the assembled hosts of Men made perfect and of Angels, when the great trial is over, and the agony of the cross is past.[15]&lt;br /&gt;This Initiation differs from all the others in that it has this strange double aspect of suffering and victory. . . . Always at this stage there is suffering, physical, astral and mental; always there is the condemnation by the world, and the apparent failure; always there is the splendid triumph upon higher planes-- which, however, remains unknown to the outer world. The peculiar type of suffering which invariably accompanies this Initiation clears off any arrears of karma which may still stand in the Initiate&amp;#039; s way; and the patience and joyousness with which he endures them have great value in the strengthening of his character, and help to determine the extent of his usefulness in the work which lies before him.[16]&lt;br /&gt;He has also to experience for a moment the condition called Avichi, which means “the waveless,” that which is without vibration. The state of Avichi is not, as has been popularly supposed, some kind of hell, but it is a condition in which the man stands absolutely alone in space, and feels cut off from all life, even from that of the Logos; and it is without doubt the most ghastly experience that it is possible for any human being to have. It is said to last only for a moment, but to those who have felt its supreme horror it seemed an eternity, for at that level time and space do not exist. That appalling trial has, I think, two object-- first, that the candidate may be able fully to sympathize with those to whom Avichi comes as a result of their actions; and secondly, that he may learn to stand absolutely apart from everything external, triumphant in his utter certainty that he is one with the Logos and that this overwhelming consternation, caused by the sensation of isolation from Him, is nothing but an illusion and a temptation. Some have collapsed before this terrible test, and have had to go back and begin over again their climb towards the higher Initiation; but for the man who can stand firm through its awful nightmare it is indeed a wonderful experience. . .[17]&lt;br /&gt;During the stages following the first, second and third Initiations the candidate is gradually developing the buddhic consciousness; but at the fourth Initiation he enters the nirvanic plane, and from then onward he is engaged in climbing steadily through that, or rather through that division of it, consisting of its five lower sub-planes, on which the human ego has being. This initiation is in one way a midway point, as it is usually said that seven lives are occupied on the average at normal times between the first and the fourth Initiations, and seven lives also between the fourth and fifth; but these figures are capable of very great reduction or increase, as I have said before, and the actual period of time employed is in most cases not very great, since usually the lives are taken in immediate succession, without interludes in the heaven-world.[18]&lt;br /&gt;This initiation is in one way a midway point, as it is usually said that seven lives are occupied on the average at normal times between the first and the fourth Initiations, and seven lives also between the fourth and fifth; but these figures are capable of very great reduction or increase, as I have said before, and the actual period of time employed is in most cases not very great, since usually the lives are taken in immediate succession, without interludes in the heaven-world.[19]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Fifth Initiation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The fifth Initiation, that of the Adept the final step that makes him Superman-- Asekha, as the Buddhists call Him, because He has no more to learn, and has exhausted the possibilities of the human kingdom of nature; Jivanmukta, as the Hindus speak of Him, a liberated life, a free being, free not because of any separate independence, but because His will is one with the universal Will, that of the One without a second. He stands ever in the light of Nirvana, even in His waking consciousness, should He choose to remain on earth in a physical body, and when out of that body He rises still higher into the Monadic plane, beyond not merely our words but our thought.[20]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;additional initiations&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiation_(Theosophy)</description> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:46:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5449358</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-23T18:46:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5445302</link> <description>Not my Three Trainings, it is the Buddha&amp;#039;s Three Trainings: it is nothing to do with me, and is simply traditional teaching and categorization, a standard way of organizing the things we might work on and improve.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2014 06:30:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5445302</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-22T06:30:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5445113</link> <description>To add somewhat of an interesting note, soul development occurs following the same basic progression of stages as the vipassana jhanas. These stages seem to be reflect a deeper spiritual/ universal reaction to distorted belief.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let me give an example: Let&amp;#039;s begin at the fruition and go through a subsequent cycle..&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fruition: The issue is seen clearly for what it is and let go of. Great peace results. The new base perceptual framework and reality fit seamlessly as though one&amp;#039;s perception is entirely accurate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(1st 3 stages: generally unnoticeable as usual).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A+P: The experience peaks, and it is suddenly perceived that one&amp;#039;s new belief framework has a flaw, or does not accurately account for reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dissolution: Somewhat of a depression in enthusiasm following finding an experiential flaw.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Progressive Dark Night Stages: One progressively moves through various ways of perceiving the issue, none of which seem to solve it. The annoyance caused by this issue gradually gets worse.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Re-observation: Nothing can be done about the issue and this is somewhat frustrating; no way out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Equanimity: Allowing the issue to be. Though a resolution is not found, just sitting with it seems to be the best option. Then, distraction from the issue, a cease from all struggling/ tension, and.. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fruition: The issue is fully seen as exactly what it is, and it is thus automatically let go of.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In this way one is constantly working through progressive issues regarding the way one regards oneself and the world. These issues are innate to perception and are separate from dualistic confusion. While the true nature of reality is known (upon enlightenment), one&amp;#039;s individuality continues to evolve, or is progressively uncovered. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who are we? At a most basic level, we are all that is (the ultimate nature of reality); this is realized upon enlightenment. Within that framework however, we are ever evolving spiritual individuals. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thought I&amp;#039;d share this as I find the connection between the insight stages and the infinite path of greater spiritual development quite interesting!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2014 03:58:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5445113</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-22T03:58:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5436339</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Karmic storehouse. You said that after the main &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; thought is seen through, you then had exhausted the karmic storehouse, after which no more confusion is possible. I think I know what you are saying, but can you give an direct example or 2 from your experience to be clear. e.g. &amp;#034;pre karmic storehouse clearing, thing XYZ would happen and &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; would be confused, but post storehouse clearing, when XYZ would happen.....&amp;#034; ? Thanks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, so after the end of all dualistic confusion, insight into the true nature of phenomena could not be further developed. However, conceptual beliefs regarding phenomena remained (Karmic storehouse). And a good example of this is..., so between when I was enlightened and when I exhausted the storehouse, about 4 months elapsed. The main issue during this time that I suffered with was a general sense of my own inferiority, not being good enough, or confident in myself. Experience was unified, but there was still conceptual doubt as to my place in the world, was I really good enough.. this sort of thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, as you have no doubt experienced, we all have thoughts that run through our heads continuously. People refer to these as our stories, what we tell ourselves. To be fair, we&amp;#039;re not really actively telling ourselves these stories, they&amp;#039;re just there and we are subject to experiencing and believing them. The dawning of full enlightenment solved with finality my issue of being a separate lasting self, however, these conceptual stories remained.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When they finally were exhausted, in the days before the intensity of the thoughts gradually ramped up perhaps. Anyhow, the night they were exhausted, these thoughts were heavily prevalent and I felt somewhat overpowered by them. You know this experience, just an unstoppable chain of thoughts, always thinking at a background level, beliefs about yourself and the world. At any rate I was lying in bed that night and the chain came to an end; complete mental silence. It was remarkable!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first thing I tried to do was stick my hand through the wall, I thought I had attained light body or something, ha. At any rate I could not pass through solid objects, it was simply that the ceaseless chain of belief had been full exhausted.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers!</description> <pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:38:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5436339</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-18T18:38:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5436186</link> <description>TDC I have a question based on your earlier thread of which I am a fan.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4737012&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Karmic storehouse. You said that after the main &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; thought is seen through, you then had exhausted the karmic storehouse, after which no more confusion is possible. I think I know what you are saying, but can you give an direct example or 2 from your experience to be clear. e.g. &amp;#034;pre karmic storehouse clearing, thing XYZ would happen and &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; would be confused, but post storehouse clearing, when XYZ would happen.....&amp;#034; ? Thanks.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2014 16:53:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5436186</guid> <dc:creator>Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-18T16:53:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5435312</link> <description>I fail to see difference between Daniels three trainings: morality, concentration and insight and your model</description> <pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:35:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5435312</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-18T06:35:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>The Universal Attainment Model</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5434636</link> <description>-Here is my best attempt at categorizing the nature of attainment and progression. Please note that when I say this model is based on ultimate reality, this is based on personal experience, which I have attempted to discuss more &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5436317"&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; As is taught in Buddhism, there are two realities so to speak; relative, which is composed of concepts, and ultimate, that which is beyond concepts, that to which concepts point. I label this as the &amp;#039;one great truth&amp;#039; as it is ultimate truth, it is the nature of reality unsullied by conceptual apprehension. The nature of reality is beyond our idea of dualistic separation, which is based in relative truth. Dualistic separation does not exist in the spere of ultimate truth, ultimately all things are intrinsically part of a great whole and thus inseparable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Universal Attainment Model&lt;/u&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Based in the idea of an Ultimate Nature of Reality. The recognition of this One Great Truth is the One Final State (aka: full enlightenment).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;2 General Developmental Paths&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt; -Soul Development&lt;br /&gt; -Insight (into non-duality) Development&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Soul Development&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt; -Underlying basis: ‘soul’ -&amp;gt; that which remains upon full enlightenment (personality).&lt;br /&gt; - Development in the form of ‘Life Lessons’.&lt;br /&gt; -Various forms of energetic development may assist with this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Insight Development&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt; -Major developmental ‘school’ within greater soul development context.&lt;br /&gt; -&amp;gt; Life on Earth: we inherently perceive dualistically.&lt;br /&gt; -Immediate challenge to be faced.&lt;br /&gt; -Hierarchical levels: progressive attainments* of recognition of non-duality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Major points/Technicalities&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Soul development occurs regardless of Insight&lt;br /&gt; -&amp;gt; However, as attainment increases it is sped up, like ‘gearing up’ (picture below).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Soul development consists of overcoming ‘issues’: stuck energy holding patterns: (implicit) beliefs&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Insight development consists of progressively overcoming innate perceptual confusion; the cause of the illusion of separation and associated mental issues (explicit thought patterns (beliefs))&lt;br /&gt; -The end result of ID is the perfection of awareness such that concentration** and insight are perfected and cannot be developed any further (the illusion of separation is overcome).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Meditation related development explicitly deals with one of these issues: SD or ID&lt;br /&gt; -&amp;gt;ID is finite, however SD is infinite; ‘perfection’ is unlikely/impossible&lt;br /&gt; -&amp;gt;The core basis of emotions is in the soul; as such it is addressed by soul development and perfection is impossible &lt;br /&gt; as soul development is infinite.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-In order to work with emotions (and underlying beliefs) (SD), it is very helpful to accomplish the path of ID, such that:&lt;br /&gt; -One’s capacity to deal with emotions (SD) is increased.&lt;br /&gt; -One’s understanding of emotions is clarified as a result of decreased&lt;br /&gt; delusory thinking&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;*&lt;em&gt;Attainment&lt;/em&gt;: Such that attainment is progressive, different practices do not cause different results; there are many routes to the same goal. Progressive attainment levels are like numerous layered spheres contained within each other. Such that levels exist, they may be reached by many different practices and need not be proceeded through in a ‘straight’ trajectory.&lt;br /&gt; - In this example, all being’s awareness begins in the inner core (picture below), the crust being enlightenment. On the journey to enlightenment, beings progressively pass through the attainments of outer core, lower mantle… up until finally passing through the lithosphere into ‘the crust’. Numerous routes abound, from the beginning one may travel in literally any direction and move outwards, however the progressive layers encountered are the same regardless of the direction one travels.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;**&lt;em&gt;Concentration&lt;/em&gt;: attempting to develop solid focus on an object unimpeded by auxiliary concerns.&lt;br /&gt; -The ultimate object is that which is all that exists: the ultimate &lt;br /&gt;nature of reality.&lt;br /&gt;-Full enlightenment is the end of dualistic separation, full union with the ultimate state.&lt;br /&gt;-Therefore enlightenment is the ultimate perfection of concentration: union with the ultimate object.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:18:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5434636</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-17T23:18:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: More Mind Maps: Dissolution, Fear and Misery</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5429615</link> <description>Good work! Please include them in your next book, they help a lot to see the big picture.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2014 01:07:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5429615</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-16T01:07:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: More Mind Maps: Dissolution, Fear and Misery</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5428438</link> <description>I love mind maps. The dukkha nanas may feel sucky but they are complex and interesting in their own ways. Eagerly waiting for the rest...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dissolution has 5 secondary bubbles&lt;br /&gt;Fear has 7 secondary bubbles&lt;br /&gt;misery has 5 secondary bubbles&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Haikus are easy, &lt;br /&gt;But sometimes they don&amp;#039;t make sense. &lt;br /&gt;Refrigerator.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:33:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5428438</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-15T16:33:18Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 