<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Terminology</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=2895194</link> <description>The discussion of precise, inclusive, specific, nuanced, clear, helpful, explanatory words used to help describe the very rich, complex world of meditation go here.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:45:19 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:45:19Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: What is "PSE"?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588557</link> <description>Well to answer your question....PSE is just like ESP but backwards &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/wink.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Couldn&amp;#039;t help myself&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:48:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588557</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-22T04:48:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What is "PSE"?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588392</link> <description>Yes, probably &amp;#034;PCE&amp;#034; -- thanx&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Opportunity for some scholarly type to attempt glossaries and concordances? But likely best to use the time for practice...</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:51:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588392</guid> <dc:creator>Chris J Macie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T22:51:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What is "PSE"?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588157</link> <description>Yep, check out &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3906614"&gt;this thread&lt;/a&gt;. I haven&amp;#039;t heard of PSE though, where did you see that? Did you mean PCE?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:18:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588157</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T16:18:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What is "PSE"?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588036</link> <description>Is there a glossary somewhere here for abbreviations or other special terms commonly used?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:58:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588036</guid> <dc:creator>Chris J Macie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T12:58:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582956</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jen Pearly:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Eric, I too experienced the DN as very distinct stages of Fear, Misery, Disgust, and Desire for Deliverance. Reobservation and Low EQ were rather murky and indistinguishable, strangely enough. A&amp;amp;P was one long pleasure of several months&amp;#039; duration that culminated in a peak Event and the usual aftermath.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I second that. Depending on if where I start my day (with a bunch of other factors), desire for delivrance, reobservation or equanimity, my experiences can have somewhat different flavors, my mind can be inclined toward different aspects and got confused there countless of times. </description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 18:51:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582956</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T18:51:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582842</link> <description>Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I want to add that this is a perfect example, considering what Tom says just above, of when in MCTB we need an explicit mention high up in the chapter of who the ideal audience is for this content, when, and why. This kind of signaling will alleviate the problem in MCTB that the implied audience keeps shifting without explanation and sometimes without even a signpost. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 15:45:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582842</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T15:45:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582818</link> <description>Thanks, &lt;strong&gt;Tom&lt;/strong&gt;. In my practice I&amp;#039;m just now finally getting hard jhana states that I can clearly identify as 3rd, 4th, and 5th. I find it hard to imagine that I would ever use such a complicated &amp;#034;three-deep&amp;#034; system, but I guess that is just me, and I could be wrong even about my own later needs. I imagine that this would be better as a technical appendix--but maybe that is where Daniel has it, come to think of it. I know it is at the very end.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Daniel&lt;/strong&gt;, also consider whether some appendices might just go on the site and have a hyperlink/URL in the book. We do that at work a lot, although that is mainly to save on production/printing costs. MCTB2 is more than 500 pages in its current form, which is almost 3 times the size of most books these days. Although, it is going to be truly &lt;strong&gt;epic&lt;/strong&gt;, so maybe that is okay. . . . </description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 15:29:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582818</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T15:29:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582462</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;What is the practical use or necessity of this fine a grain of detail on mediative states/stages? I realize that some people find it interesting, but is it important as content for the book and for most people&amp;#039;s practice? Is this &amp;#034;shorthand&amp;#034; for the purpose of communicating? &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it&amp;#039;s important, not simply because it&amp;#039;s interesting or due to a need for comprehensiveness/completeness.  Sure, it&amp;#039;s not necessary, but I think it&amp;#039;s relevant for people who have completed several cycles.  I could see it being confusing for people pre-path or maybe even up to first or second path.   However, the territory between 3rd and 4th path is vast and fine tuning &amp;#034;awareness&amp;#034; to this level of nuance is quite helpful at that point.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 08:57:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582462</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T08:57:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582454</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;This also got me thinking about the fact that this sort of technical practice and phase relineation is really quite unusual, and I was wondering why it was so rarely found, even in a community like this.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is quite rare for a couple reasons:  First of all it takes someone of a fairly high degree of insight to do this.  People who are pre-stream-entry have not necessarily even experienced all of the nanas and many are spending their time trying to distinguish grosser features such as the difference between the A&amp;amp;P and Equanimity or the Dark Night from the Three Characteristics.   They&amp;#039;re also learning to identify and understand the difference between vipassana and samatha as well as learning to distinguish and access the early samatha jhanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another reason is that it&amp;#039;s not strictly necessary for attaining paths.  Some people are only interested in attaining paths and then being done or teaching from some other angle.  Not everyone will be interested in such nuances.  Also not everyone has mastery or even access of the formless realms, the pure land jhanas, or NS.  Strictly speaking, accessing formless realms, not to mention mastering them, is not necessary for reaching arahatship.  The same could be said for all of the samatha jhanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 08:35:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582454</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T08:35:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582178</link> <description>I agree with Eric that English names or clear abreviations are preferable to numerals. Maybe it is because I&amp;#039;m an English major, but my brain has to focus extra hard to even register numbers at all. Every time someone says &lt;em&gt;third nana&lt;/em&gt;, I have to go look up  for the gazillionth time which one that is--seriously. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Really all this is over the poor editor&amp;#039;s head. I&amp;#039;m happy just to be able to tell third from fourth jhana! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is the practical use or necessity of this fine a grain of detail on mediative states/stages? I realize that some people find it interesting, but is it important as content for the book and for most people&amp;#039;s practice? Is this &amp;#034;shorthand&amp;#034; for the purpose of communicating? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To me going two deep would be plenty complex.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 04:14:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582178</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T04:14:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582168</link> <description>Eric, I too experienced the DN as very distinct stages of Fear, Misery, Disgust, and Desire for Deliverance. Reobservation and Low EQ were rather murky and indistinguishable, strangely enough. A&amp;amp;P was one long pleasure of several months&amp;#039; duration that culminated in a peak Event and the usual aftermath.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 04:02:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582168</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T04:02:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582010</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;To be really technically precise the path number would also need to be included since each path has each jhana as its base.   For example, someone who has obtained 4 paths or close to that is continuously existing as the embodiment of the 4th jhana.  A more accurate statement would be something like 4p.eq.eq.ro where 4 represents 4 paths or the embodiment of the 4th jhana.  This gets tricky for 3rd-4th path where you can have innumerable insight cycles past the 3rd one and still not have 4th path, though continuous experience does seem to get closer and closer to 4th jhana territory with successive cycles.&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 00:56:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582010</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T00:56:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581990</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;U Pandita does split up the A&amp;amp;P. His second viapassana jhana is the immature phase, where the meditator is all caught up in the light and bliss, and his 3rd VJ is the mature phase, where things are still arising and vanishing very quickly but tranquility has become predominant. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it is arguable whether these are unique stages or not   For example, the substages of the A&amp;amp;P could just be expressed as ap.mb.x to ap.ro.x into ap.eq.x (where x means any possibility).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Similarly,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Low Equanimity: eq.mb.x -&amp;gt; eq.ap.x&lt;br /&gt;Early Mastery: eq.dissolution.x -&amp;gt; eq.ro.x&lt;br /&gt;High Mastery: eq.eq.mb -&amp;gt; eq.eq.ro&lt;br /&gt;High Equanimity -&amp;gt; eq.eq.eq&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On the other hand, there are some unique features of the sub-stages of equanimity like the degree of understanding and presence of formations and panoramic &amp;#034;attention.&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 00:23:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581990</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T00:23:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581889</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tom Tom:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Another issue is concerning the 1-11 stages.  Why are we so willing ot subdivide the dark night into 6 discrete stages, but only one discrete stage for the A&amp;amp;P and equanimity?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Should we refer to Low Equanimity, Early Mastery, High Mastery and High Equanimity as 11.1, 11.2, 11.3, 11.4 (or eq.1, eq.2, etc) or should we assign them all new numbers like is done with the stages of the dark night?  In this case low equanimity would be 11, Early Mastery would be 12, etc.  Are these substages of Equanimity simply expressible by including the other stages/nanas as substages of equanimity or are they there own unique stages/nanas, such as those in the dark night (fear, misery, disgust, etc)?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The same could be said for splitting up the A&amp;amp;P.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;U Pandita does split up the A&amp;amp;P. His second viapassana jhana is the immature phase, where the meditator is all caught up in the light and bliss, and his 3rd VJ is the mature phase, where things are still arising and vanishing very quickly but tranquility has become predominant. His 4th VJ is the Dark Night all the way up to fruition/stream entry.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is odd that the Dark Night has six levels and the others seem to be much simpler. That said, I can remember each distinct moment in the DN when the next nana would arise (Disgust, Desire for Deliverance, etc...), but I only remember the A&amp;amp;P as one continuous experience. Hmm.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 23:42:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581889</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T23:42:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581838</link> <description>Another issue is concerning the 1-11 stages.  Why are we so willing ot subdivide the dark night into 6 discrete stages, but only one discrete stage for the A&amp;amp;P and equanimity?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Should we refer to Low Equanimity, Early Mastery, High Mastery and High Equanimity as 11.1, 11.2, 11.3, 11.4 (or eq.1, eq.2, etc) or should we assign them all new numbers like is done with the stages of the dark night?  In this case low equanimity would be 11, Early Mastery would be 12, etc.  Are these substages of Equanimity simply expressible by including the other stages/nanas as substages of equanimity or are they their own unique stages/nanas, such as those in the dark night (fear, misery, disgust, etc)?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The same could be said for splitting up the A&amp;amp;P.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 23:24:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581838</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T23:24:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581810</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are we talking exponents here? My math is rusty. &lt;br /&gt;11 x 11 x 11 = 1331&lt;br /&gt;11 x 11 x 11 x 11 = 14641&lt;br /&gt;either way that is a lot of slicing&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hmm wait &lt;br /&gt;11 nanas times 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas = 704 combos... is this right?&lt;br /&gt;then there are an additional 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas = 512 jhana combos....right?&lt;br /&gt;1216 total discrete states?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First of all we have to assume that all combinations are possible.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, I&amp;#039;m not sure if something like eq.c8.c5 is possible (the boundless space aspect of neither perception nor yet non-perception??).  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, all of the formless concentration jhanas occur out of the 4th jhana so would it make sense to say something like ce.c6.c7 where the formless realms arise out of the cause and effect stage?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, there are at least four pure land stages beyond the 8th jhana and how are they counted? Would we call them c9, c10, c11, c12?   The difference between samatha and vipassana tends to diminish as we go up the jhanic arc, though this does not mean that it&amp;#039;s not impossible to be heavily concentrated in formless realms, but what about pure lands?  This also means that vipassanized formless realms are not being counted in the total since they are not expressible outside the 11 insight stages if the insight naming notation is used.  For example, i6 would need to be counted.  (Where insight is being done on the jhana of boundless consciousness).  Assuming no distinction between samatha and vipassana for a pure land or the 8th jhana (though I&amp;#039;m not sure if this is entirely true), then we would have.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(So assuming that all combinations are possible, going three levels in, and including pure lands we would have):&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(11 nanas + 12 jhanas + 3 insight formless realms )^3 = 17,576&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This includes weird stuff like j12.ce.mb  (The subsubstage of mind and body of the substage of cause and effect of the 4th pure land jhana).</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 22:49:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581810</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T22:49:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581350</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This also got me thinking about the fact that this sort of technical practice and phase relineation is really quite unusual, and I was wondering why it was so rarely found, even in a community like this.&lt;br /&gt;Daniel&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Because you are a micro-phenomenologicist. Is there any training that allowed you to get to this detail level? Are there practices you did to get there? Can you add this training to MCTB 2? Knowing something is possible is the first step in getting there.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 19:44:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581350</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T19:44:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581329</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have rarely sliced it much more than 3 deep, as that suits my general needs. I suspect it can be sliced about as fine as you want to.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are we talking exponents here? My math is rusty. &lt;br /&gt;11 x 11 x 11 = 1331&lt;br /&gt;11 x 11 x 11 x 11 = 14641&lt;br /&gt;either way that is a lot of slicing&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hmm wait &lt;br /&gt;11 nanas times 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas = 704 combos... is this right?&lt;br /&gt;then there are an additional 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas times 8 jhanas = 512 jhana combos....right?&lt;br /&gt;1216 total discrete states?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Three is pretty easy once you know what to look for.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would you mind pointing at what to look for? I was gonna do a 2 day retreat starting tomorrow and I&amp;#039;d like to &amp;#034;look&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 19:36:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581329</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T19:36:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580076</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;so, we might have eq.6.2, meaning the blooming subsubjhana of the boundless consciousness aspect of high equanimity, or di.3.1, meaning the beginning of the 3rd subjhana phase of dissolution.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are advantages to this method because it could be confusing whether a number is referring to a nana or a vipassana jhana. There are 11 numbers for nanas, but only 4 for vipassana jhanas.  It will also eliminate new readers of the book having to memorize the numbers for all the nanas so as to immediately know, say, that the 6th nana is &amp;#034;Fear.&amp;#034;  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, what determines whether a state is a concentration state or an insight state?  Is it as simple as: if you&amp;#039;re paying attention to the 3Cs then it&amp;#039;s insight and if you&amp;#039;re blissing out that&amp;#039;s concentration?  What about percentages like 80% concentration 20% vipassana?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 10:35:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580076</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T10:35:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580043</link> <description>I have rarely sliced it much more than 3 deep, as that suits my general needs. I suspect it can be sliced about as fine as you want to. Three is pretty easy once you know what to look for.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 09:40:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580043</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T09:40:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580039</link> <description>This naturally begs the question-- how many sub-jhanas are there, really? It would seem that the fractal nature of things makes for a very large number of them, so we would have to decide at which point it becomes tedious or ridiculous to map them. For example... 4.6.2.3 would be the dissolution phase of the flowering phase of the of the boundless consciousness aspect of 4th jhana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing-- I&amp;#039;d like to see English names for these states, although that may just make things more confusing, since folks who are interested in meditation shorthand probably know what a jhana or a nana is already. &amp;#034;Absorption&amp;#034; is sometimes used for jhana but it sounds clunky, &amp;#034;7th Absorption: Nothingness.&amp;#034; Maybe something like &amp;#034;concentrative state?&amp;#034; although that&amp;#039;s clunky too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like working with vipassana jhanas, which we could shorten as &amp;#034;VJ&amp;#034;, which would be fine if it didn&amp;#039;t sound like some sort of sexually transmitted disease.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 09:32:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580039</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T09:32:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579945</link> <description>Alright, I get that, except sometimes distinguising really helps with that unconditioned part, as, if you are missing stuff or not good at recognizing subtle mind states and aspects, it is easy for things to keep you stuck, whereas if you can tell what they are and what is going on, this is the mindfulness that leads to the possibility of investigation that leads to the possibility of wisdom. While it is true that some do just fine keeping it as simple as just looking for peace now, there is something to be said for the insights that come from more techinical and precise practice.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 06:27:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579945</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T06:27:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579897</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;This also got me thinking about the fact that this sort of technical practice and phase relineation is really quite unusual, and I was wondering why it was so rarely found, even in a community like this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, to me it just doesn&amp;#039;t seem to matter all that much whether i am in &amp;#034;mi&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;dd&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;ro&amp;#034; I just want out. And even to distinguish between ro and eq seems possibly unskillful as what I really want is access to something that doesn&amp;#039;t really distinguish between anything and anything else... i.e. unconditional peace/happiness. That&amp;#039;s why insight nanas and even paths have never really gotten my attention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 05:11:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579897</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T05:11:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Meditation Shorthand: thoughts?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579881</link> <description>Dear Dharma Geeks,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have used various shorthand notations to delineate things like jhanas and subjhanas and the systems vary somewhat depending on my mood and the year and things like that. I thought it would be good to put out a question in case anyone was interested in giving feedback on this and before MCTB comes out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Various systems I use look something like:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4.6.2, which would be the flowering phase of the boundless consciousness aspect of the 4th jhana, except that you could tell that necessarily from just that notation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and you might think it was the Cause and Effect part of the Fear phase of the A&amp;amp;P&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so sometimes I write things like j4.j6.j2 or ñ4.ñ6.ñ2 for those respectively&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and then sometimes I use c for jhana and i for insight stage, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so we would have c4.c6.c2 or i4.i6.i2&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;or, if we were talking about something using a mix of terms, we might have c4.c6.i2 or whatever&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;but, I was thinking about this tonight and thinking that really there are ways to have it be less ambiguous and easier for people to sort out if we used the following&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;mb=mind and body&lt;br /&gt;ce=cause and effect&lt;br /&gt;3c=three characteristics&lt;br /&gt;ap=a&amp;amp;P&lt;br /&gt;di=dissolution&lt;br /&gt;fr=fear&lt;br /&gt;mi=misery&lt;br /&gt;dg=disgust&lt;br /&gt;dd=desire for deliverance&lt;br /&gt;ro=reobservation&lt;br /&gt;eq=equanimity&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and the jhanas would just go by their respective numbers&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and nirodha samapatti could just be called ns.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so, we might have eq.6.2, meaning the blooming subsubjhana of the boundless consciousness aspect of high equanimity, or di.3.1, meaning the beginning of the 3rd subjhana phase of dissolution.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thought I would put this out there to try to formalize something and have that just be the thing, as I keep flipping back and forth in my own writing without stabilizing on one system.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This also got me thinking about the fact that this sort of technical practice and phase relineation is really quite unusual, and I was wondering why it was so rarely found, even in a community like this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thoughts?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 04:47:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579881</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T04:47:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574679</link> <description>No that doesn&amp;#039;t fit the experience and I don&amp;#039;t know how to restate your question so that it does fit... &amp;#034;Self-aware&amp;#034; didn&amp;#039;t apply to it</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:39:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574679</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T03:39:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574676</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;one divided by infinite time&amp;#034; Man Buddhists are made for calculus I swear.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recently while practicing Shinzen style noting gones and &amp;#039;do nothing&amp;#039; I had an experience within a subset of my experience that fit the bill of &amp;#039;emptiness&amp;#039;. Coincidentally, I explained it like this -- that if each moment was a frame of a movie, if you laid the frames out I felt like I was the infinitely thin blackness between frames that could perceive each frame clearly. I&amp;#039;m not sure if this experience was a genuine taste of &amp;#039;emptiness&amp;#039; or if I was just hypnotizing myself into an interesting state.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are you saying that there was a void that was self-aware?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:26:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574676</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T03:26:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574673</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a minor quibble with 5. Isn&amp;#039;t Total Objectlessness equally true? It seems to me that Total Subjectlessness corresponds to a Noself perspective and Total Objectlessness corresponds to a True Self perspective.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Many people conceive of nonduality in terms of subsuming -- either Subject into Object, or Object into Subject. Such people will subsume everything into Subject and say &amp;#039;Only the Subject exist, there is no other&amp;#039; or into Object, &amp;#039;Only the Object exist, there is no other&amp;#039;. But there is a nonsubstantialist insight of nonduality. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/the-pathologies-of-insights.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some conversations with Thusness back in 2012 are quite illuminating on this subject:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;10/22/2012 9:09 AM: John: To me is just is &amp;#034;AEN&amp;#034; an eternal being...that&amp;#039;s all. No denial of AEN as a conventional self&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:48 PM: John: All is just him is an inference too. There is no other is also an assumption&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:48 PM: AEN: That&amp;#039;s what I said lol&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:48 PM: AEN: He didn&amp;#039;t see it&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:49 PM: John: But other mindstreams is a more valid assumption. Don&amp;#039;t u think so?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:50 PM: John: And verifiable&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 2:50 PM: AEN: Yeah&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:21 PM: John: Whatever in conventional reality still remain, only that reification is seen through. Get it?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:23 PM: John: The centre is seen through be it &amp;#034;subject&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;object&amp;#034;, they r imputed mental constructs.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:24 PM: John: Only the additional &amp;#034;ghostly something&amp;#034; is seen through&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:26 PM: AEN: Ic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:26 PM: John: Not construing and reifying. Nothing that &amp;#034;subject&amp;#034; does not exist.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:26 PM: John: Get it?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:28 PM: John: This seeing through itself led to implicit non-dual experience&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:28 PM: AEN: &amp;#034;Nothing that &amp;#034;subject&amp;#034; does not exist.&amp;#034; - what u mean?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:29 PM: John: Not &amp;#034;subject&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;object&amp;#034; does not exist.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:30 PM: John: Or dissolving object into subject or subject into object...etc&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:30 PM: AEN: Ic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:30 PM: John: That &amp;#034;extra&amp;#034; imputation is seen through.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:30 PM: AEN: Oic&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:31 PM: John: R u clear? Conventional reality still remain as it is.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:34 PM: John: Btw focus more on practice in releasing any holdings....do not keep engaging on all these.&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:35 PM: AEN: Ic.. Conventional reality are just names imposed on non-inherent aggregates right&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:35 PM: John: Yes&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:37 PM: John: That led to releasing of the mind from holding...no subsuming of anything&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:39 PM: John: What u wrote is unclear&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:40 PM: John: Do u get what I mean?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:42 PM: AEN: Yeah&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:43 PM: John: Doesn&amp;#039;t mean AEN does not exist...lol&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:43 PM: John: Or I m u or u r me&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:44 PM: John: Just not construing and reifying&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:44 PM: AEN: Ic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:45 PM: AEN: Nondual is collapsing objects to self, thus I am you&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:45 PM: AEN: Anatta simply sees through reification, but conventionally I am I, you are you&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:45 PM: John: Or collapsing subject into object&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:45 PM: AEN: Ic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:45 PM: John: Yes&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:46 PM: John: U r still unclear abt this and mixed up&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:47 PM: John: Seeing through the reification of &amp;#034;subject&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;object&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;self&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;now&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;here&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:48 PM: John: Get it?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:48 PM: AEN: Oic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:48 PM: John: Seeing through &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; led to implicit non-dual experience&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:49 PM: John: Coz experience turns direct without reification&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:49 PM: John: In seeing, just scenery&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:50 PM: John: Like u see through the word &amp;#034;weather&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:51 PM: John: That weather-ness&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:51 PM: John: Be it subject/object/weather/...etc&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:52 PM: AEN: ic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:53 PM: John: That is mind free of seeing &amp;#034;things&amp;#034; existing inherently&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:53 PM: John: Experience turns vivid direct and releasing&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:55 PM: John: But I don&amp;#039;t want u to keep participating idle talk and neglect practice...always over emphasizing unnecessarily&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 6:57 PM: AEN: Oic..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:06 PM: John: What happens to experience?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:10 PM: John: I hv very important deal that should take place within this month hopefully they go through smoothly...we meet after that&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:13 PM: AEN: Oic.. Ok..&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:13 PM: AEN: U mean after anatta? Direct, luminous, but no ground of abiding (like some inherent awareness)&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:15 PM: John: And what do u mean by that?&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:20 PM: AEN: Means there are only transient six sense streams experience, in seen just seen, etc&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:20 PM: AEN: Nothing extra&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:21 PM: John: Six stream experiences is just a convenient raft&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:21 PM: John: Nothing ultimate&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:23 PM: John: Not only must u see that there is no Seer + seeing + seen...u must see the immerse connectedness&lt;br /&gt;10/27/2012 7:26 PM: John: Implicit Non-dual in experience in anatta to u means what?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:24:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574673</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T03:24:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574661</link> <description>&amp;#034;one divided by infinite time&amp;#034; Man Buddhists are made for calculus I swear.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recently while practicing Shinzen style noting gones and &amp;#039;do nothing&amp;#039; I had an experience within a subset of my experience that fit the bill of &amp;#039;emptiness&amp;#039;. Coincidentally, I explained it like this -- that if each moment was a frame of a movie, if you laid the frames out I felt like I was the infinitely thin blackness between frames that could perceive each frame clearly. I&amp;#039;m not sure if this experience was a genuine taste of &amp;#039;emptiness&amp;#039; or if I was just hypnotizing myself into an interesting state.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:07:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574661</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T03:07:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574657</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;And, Manifestation=Awareness geospacially refers to the fact that awareness can be considered an extraneous concept because sensations are simply manifest and &amp;#039;aware where they are&amp;#039;. Or, in other words, there are just sensations; sensations and awareness can&amp;#039;t be separated. And, Manifestation=Awareness ontologically is a more &amp;#039;mystical&amp;#039; statement along the lines of ideas like Primordial Awareness, panpsychism, and/or pantheism. That right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If anyone can clear up these points, especially the atemporality it&amp;#039;d be helpful. Or, even, if anyone else is confused on any of these points feel free to post too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT:&lt;br /&gt;Oh, and I&amp;#039;m not sure to what &amp;#039;intrinsic luminosity&amp;#039; refers. Related to &amp;#039;Clear Light&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no single definition on &amp;#039;Primordial Awareness&amp;#039;, and different people use that term differently. Some people conceive of Primordial Awareness as a changeless source of phenomena, but the view of a &amp;#039;Source&amp;#039; (behind phenomena and giving rise to it)/&amp;#039;Self&amp;#039;/&amp;#039;changeless&amp;#039; is seen through via insight into anatta. Therefore views such as pantheism does not apply. Especially when one&amp;#039;s view about anatta is clear and furthermore extends into realizing dependent origination.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pantheism conceives of Awareness as having an inherent, changeless existence, like an ocean that emanates waves (phenomena), like a primordial changeless substance that modifies itself into everything, yet remains unchanged by all its modifications. It is like viewing Awareness as an inherent changeless mirror, and all the reflections are the mirror&amp;#039;s modifications and are thus the mirror, yet the mirror is not its reflections and persists unaffected by them as their changeless source. Therefore it is not seen as a two-way equation. Awareness is seen as a bigger context of phenomena -- the ocean that transcends and pervades the waves, is larger than everything and inseparable from everything. This I call &amp;#039;substantial nondualism&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;One Mind&amp;#039;. When insight into the anatta and emptiness of awareness manifest, one no longer conceives of a larger source behind phenomena. One realizes that &amp;#039;Awareness&amp;#039; is not a source behind phenomena or manifestation, but is simply manifestation without anything behind (or even inseparable) from it, nothing hidden. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s definition of primordial awareness:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dear Mark,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your descriptions and analysis. They are interesting and relevant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&lt;br /&gt; think of it this way, from a very high but still vipassana point of &lt;br /&gt;view, as you are framing this question in a vipassana context:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First, the breath is nice, but at that level of manifesting sensations, some other points of view are helpful:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assume&lt;br /&gt; something really simple about sensations and awareness: they are &lt;br /&gt;exactly the same. In fact, make it more simple: there are sensations, &lt;br /&gt;and this includes all sensations that make up space, thought, image, &lt;br /&gt;body, anything you can imagine being mind, and all qualities that are &lt;br /&gt;experienced, meaning the sum total of the world.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In this very &lt;br /&gt;simple framework, rigpa is all sensations, but there can be this subtle &lt;br /&gt;attachment and lack of investigation when high terms are used that we &lt;br /&gt;want there to be this super-rigpa, this awareness that is other. You &lt;br /&gt;mention that you feel there is a larger awareness, an awareness that is &lt;br /&gt;not just there the limits of your senses. I would claim otherwise: that &lt;br /&gt;the whole sensate universe by definition can&amp;#039;t arise without the quality&lt;br /&gt; of awareness by definition, and so some very subtle sensations are &lt;br /&gt;tricking you into thinking they are bigger than the rest of the sensate &lt;br /&gt;field and are actually the awareness that is aware of other sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Awareness is simply manifestation. All sensations are simply present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus,&lt;br /&gt; be wary of anything that wants to be a super-awareness, a rigpa that is&lt;br /&gt; larger than everything else, as it can&amp;#039;t be, by definition. Investigate&lt;br /&gt; at the level of bare sensate experience just what arises and see that &lt;br /&gt;it can&amp;#039;t possibly be different from awareness, as this is actually an &lt;br /&gt;extraneous concept and there are actually just sensations as the first &lt;br /&gt;and final basis of reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As you like the Tibetan stuff, and to quote Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;The mind that observes is also devoid of an ego or self-entity.&lt;br /&gt;It is neither seen as something different from the aggregates&lt;br /&gt;Nor as identical with these five aggregates.&lt;br /&gt;If the first were true, there would exist some other substance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is not the case, so were the second true,&lt;br /&gt;That would contradict a permanent self, since the aggregates are impermanent.&lt;br /&gt;Therefore, based on the five aggregates,&lt;br /&gt;The self is a mere imputation based on the power of the ego-clinging.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As to that which imputes, the past thought has vanished and is nonexistent.&lt;br /&gt;The future thought has not occurred, and the present thought does not withstand scrutiny.&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;em&gt;I&lt;br /&gt; really found this little block of tight philosophy helpful. It is also &lt;br /&gt;very vipassana at its core, but it is no surprise the wisdom traditions &lt;br /&gt;converge.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus, if you want to crack the nut, notice that everything is &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistdoor&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;OldWeb&amp;#x2f;bdoor&amp;#x2f;archive&amp;#x2f;nutshell&amp;#x2f;teach11&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;5 aggregates&lt;/a&gt;,&lt;br /&gt; including everything you think is super-awareness, and be less &lt;br /&gt;concerned with what every little type of consciousness is than with just&lt;br /&gt; perceiving them directly and noticing the gaps that section off this &lt;br /&gt;from that, such as rigpa from thought stream, or awareness from &lt;br /&gt;sensations, as these are golden chains.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Where manifestation are intensely vivid and clear in and of itself (without any observer behind), or as you say &amp;#039;aware where they are&amp;#039;, that is intrinsic luminosity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel: &amp;#034;So you have these two extremes - &lt;br /&gt;both of which I find pretty annoying (laughs) - and uhm, not that they &lt;br /&gt;are not making interesting points that counterbalance each other. And &lt;br /&gt;then, from an experiential point of view, the whole field seems to be &lt;br /&gt;happening on its own in a luminous way, the intelligence or awareness &lt;br /&gt;seems to be intrinsic in the phenomena, the phenomena do appear to be &lt;br /&gt;totally transient, totally ephemeral. So I would reject from an &lt;br /&gt;experiential point of view, something in the harshness of the dogma of &lt;br /&gt;the rigid no-selfists that can&amp;#039;t recognise the intrinsic nature of &lt;br /&gt;awareness that is the field. If that makes sense. Cos they tend to feel &lt;br /&gt;there&amp;#039;s something about that&amp;#039;s sort of (cut off?)...&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interviewer: &amp;#034;And not only awareness...&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel:&lt;br /&gt; &amp;#034;Intelligence. Right, and I also reject from an experiential point of &lt;br /&gt;view the people who would make this permanent, something separate from, &lt;br /&gt;something different from just the manifestation itself. I don&amp;#039;t like the&lt;br /&gt; permanence aspect because from a Buddhist technical point of view I do &lt;br /&gt;not find anything that stands up as permanent in experience. I find that&lt;br /&gt; quality always there *while there is experience.* Because it&amp;#039;s &lt;br /&gt;something in the nature of experience. But it&amp;#039;s not quite the same thing&lt;br /&gt; as permanence, if that makes sense. So while there is experience, there&lt;br /&gt; is experience. So that means there is awareness, from a certain point &lt;br /&gt;of view, manifestation - awareness being intrinsically the same thing, &lt;br /&gt;intrinsic to each other. So while there is experience, I would claim &lt;br /&gt;that element (awareness) is there - it has to be for there to be &lt;br /&gt;experience. And I would claim that the system seems to function very &lt;br /&gt;lawfully and it&amp;#039;s very easy to feel that there&amp;#039;s a sort of intelligence,&lt;br /&gt; ok, cool... ...the feeling of profundity, the feeling of &lt;br /&gt;miraculousness, the wondrous component. So as the Tibetans would say, &lt;br /&gt;amazing! It all happens by itself! So, there is intrinsically amazing &lt;br /&gt;about this. It&amp;#039;s very refreshingly amazing that the thing happens, and &lt;br /&gt;that things cognize themselves or are aware where they are, &lt;br /&gt;manifestation is truly amazing and tuning into that amazingness has &lt;br /&gt;something valuable about it from a pragmatic point of view.&amp;#034;- &lt;/em&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;hNg-gps9O0w"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNg-gps9O0w&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wrote:&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;We think that the wheels are mere manifestations &lt;br /&gt;or extensions or attributes of an unmanifest core of a &amp;#039;car&amp;#039;. But no &lt;br /&gt;matter how we disect the car into its parts, what we find are all &lt;br /&gt;manifestations, and no intrinsic unmanifest core essence is there. The &lt;br /&gt;manifestations are conventionally called &amp;#039;car&amp;#039;, they are not &lt;br /&gt;manifestations &amp;#039;of a car&amp;#039;, those appearance are precisely what&amp;#039;s &lt;br /&gt;conventionally called &amp;#039;car&amp;#039; and no &amp;#039;car&amp;#039; stands behind/apart from those &lt;br /&gt;appearances -- empty of a hidden/inherent/intrinsic core.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is &lt;br /&gt;the case for &amp;#039;Awareness&amp;#039;/&amp;#039;Self&amp;#039;.. and can be directly realized. But due &lt;br /&gt;to strongly rooted view of inherency, Self/Awareness/etc seem to be have&lt;br /&gt; an intrinsic core essence that is enduring beyond all appearances. &lt;br /&gt;There is nothing besides those appearances. There is no &lt;br /&gt;unmanifest/manifest side of awareness, to even speak of their &lt;br /&gt;inseparability. Even formless presence in the gap between thoughts or &lt;br /&gt;when five senses are shut, a pure Mind presence-awareness, that too is &lt;br /&gt;fully manifest and empty of intrinsic existence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As the cook told Dogen that made a lasting impression on him, there is nothing hidden in the universe... fully manifest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you understand what I just wrote above, then &lt;br /&gt;you&amp;#039;ll also see why &amp;#039;what it is made of&amp;#039; does not apply since there is &lt;br /&gt;nothing besides/behind/within/apart from the very manifestation. For &lt;br /&gt;example, the apple is not &amp;#039;made up of sweetness&amp;#039; or the apple is not &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;made up of redness&amp;#039; -- the redness, sweetness, just that is &lt;br /&gt;conventionally labelled apple, there is no intrinsic apple apart from &lt;br /&gt;the basis of designation that is the mere-appearance.Therefore directly tasting that appearance reveals its characteristics, but there is nothing intrinsic in it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;its not &amp;#034;sweetness &lt;br /&gt;of the apple&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;redness of the apple&amp;#034;, the apple is only that &lt;br /&gt;sweetness, that redness, and apart (or within, or in-between) those &lt;br /&gt;appearance, no apple-ness can be obtained. this is the same insight as &lt;br /&gt;anatta but applying the view to other objects. likewise for awareness, &lt;br /&gt;there is no &amp;#039;forms of awareness&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;manifestations of awareness&amp;#039; -- &lt;br /&gt;just that manifestation of various forms intensely self-luminous are &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; and there is no &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; &lt;br /&gt;apart/behind/within/in-between/besides them. you can say the &lt;br /&gt;characteristic of manifestation is that they are self-luminous, in the &lt;br /&gt;same way as you can say water is wet or sugar is sweet, yet there is no &lt;br /&gt;wetness apart from that instantiation of water or sweetness apart from &lt;br /&gt;the instantiation of sugar, nor sugar apart from the appearance of &lt;br /&gt;sweetness. in short: the very idea that there is something hidden&lt;br /&gt; within an appearance which the appearance (an apple, sugar, etc) is &lt;br /&gt;made of doesnt apply.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; ...According to Dogen, this “oceanic-body” does not contain the &lt;br /&gt;myriad forms, nor is it made up of myriad forms &amp;#x2013; it is the myriad forms&lt;br /&gt; themselves. The same instruction is provided at the beginning of &lt;br /&gt;Shobogenzo, Gabyo (pictured rice-cakes) where, he asserts that, “as all &lt;br /&gt;Buddhas are enlightenment” (sho, or honsho), so too, “all dharmas are &lt;br /&gt;enlightenment” which he says does not mean they are simply “one” nature &lt;br /&gt;or mind.&amp;#034; -- Ted Biringer&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;facebook&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;cyberlogy"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;therefore,&lt;br /&gt; you can only directly taste that luminosity (i can&amp;#039;t tell you what &lt;br /&gt;sugar is like until you tasted it), but forming views about it is what &lt;br /&gt;twofold emptiness will do away with&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/dharmajim/DharmaView.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2.2 Pantheism&lt;br /&gt;A widely held view of ultimate nature is often referred to as pantheism.&lt;br /&gt;This view comprehends ultimate nature as some kind of primal substance&lt;br /&gt;out of which all things emerge. The most common metaphor for this view&lt;br /&gt;is waves and water. The phenomena that we perceive are the wvaes, but their&lt;br /&gt;true nature is water, which all phenomena share. From this perspective,&lt;br /&gt;the appearances of this world are considered to exist as modifications&lt;br /&gt;of this primal substance. The transcendent substance unites all existing&lt;br /&gt;things, constitutes what all existing things have in common, and is in&lt;br /&gt;a profound sense more real than appearances because appearances seem to&lt;br /&gt;exist in a way that things have differentiating natures whereas in reality,&lt;br /&gt;from the perspective of pantheism, the ultimate nature of things is this&lt;br /&gt;primal substance. The two great elucidations of this view are the &lt;em&gt;Upanishads&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;of Indian philosophy and Spinoza in the west.&lt;br /&gt;Interdependent Transformation, in contrast, is a non-substantial view of&lt;br /&gt;ultimate nature. The metaphor for Interdependent Transformation most widely&lt;br /&gt;used within the Buddhist tradition is Indra’s Net. In this metaphor the&lt;br /&gt;places where the threads of the net cross are occupied by jewels. The facets&lt;br /&gt;of the jewels reflect all the other jewels in the net. Now, drop the threads.&lt;br /&gt;Now drop the jewels: or rather the jewels are nothing more than the endless&lt;br /&gt;reflections and refractions off of all the other jewels.&lt;br /&gt;The common nature, from the point of view of Interdependent Transformation,&lt;br /&gt;that nature which all things share, is their dependency, their reliance&lt;br /&gt;upon conditions for their existence, not their substance. The dependent&lt;br /&gt;nature of all existing things manifests as a quality of those things, but&lt;br /&gt;does not imply an underlying substance or essential nature. Just as a green&lt;br /&gt;chair and a green table share the color green without implying that they&lt;br /&gt;have a common substance, so the qualities that emerge from Interdependent&lt;br /&gt;Transformation, such as dependence, interdependence, process, contingency,&lt;br /&gt;etc., mark all existing things, but do not imply a substantial presence&lt;br /&gt;or essential nature. This, in part, is what Buddhism means when it says&lt;br /&gt;that things are “empty”; they are empty of substance, empty of essence,</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:00:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574657</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T03:00:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574653</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;That clears things up in an intellectual way, though it&amp;#039;s difficult to imagine for me. Your quote reminds me of http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Uji_Welch.htm&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I see why Shinzen Young draws analogies between flow and differential calculus. &amp;#039;Perceiving impermanence&amp;#039; is some kind of quirky differential operator on the &amp;#039;Field&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for taking the time to dig that out&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Yes. It will only be very clear experientially when anatta is realized. But that&amp;#039;s as close as it gets to explaining it &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, Zen Master Seung Sahn said:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: blue"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#034;Everyone &lt;br /&gt; thinks that this is extremely difficult teaching, something &lt;br /&gt; beyond their reach or experience. How can things appear and &lt;br /&gt; disappear, and yet there is, originally, even in this constantly &lt;br /&gt; moving world, no appearing and disappearing? A student once &lt;br /&gt; asked me, &amp;#039;The &lt;em&gt;Mahaparinirvana-sutra&lt;/em&gt; seems very confusing. &lt;br /&gt; Everything is always moving. And yet everything is not moving? &lt;br /&gt; I don&amp;#039;t understand this Buddhism . . .&amp;#039; But there is a very &lt;br /&gt; easy way to understand this: Sometime you go to a movie. You &lt;br /&gt; see an action movie about a good man and a bad man--lots of &lt;br /&gt; fighting, cars moving very fast, and explosions all over the &lt;br /&gt; place. Everything is always moving very quickly. Our daily &lt;br /&gt; lives have this quality: everything is constantly moving, &lt;br /&gt; coming and going, nonstop. It seems like there is no stillness-place. &lt;br /&gt; But this movie is really only a very long strip of film. In &lt;br /&gt; one second, there are something like fourteen frames. Each &lt;br /&gt; frame is a separate piece of action. But in each frame, nothing &lt;br /&gt; is moving. Everything is completely still. Each frame, one &lt;br /&gt; by one, is a complete picture. In each frame, nothing ever &lt;br /&gt; comes or goes, or appears or disappears. Each frame is complete &lt;br /&gt; stillness. The film projector moves the frames very quickly, &lt;br /&gt; and all of these frames run past the lens very fast, so the &lt;br /&gt; action on-screen seems to happen nonstop. There is no break &lt;br /&gt; in the movement of things. But actually when you take this &lt;br /&gt; strip of film and hold it up to the light with your hands, &lt;br /&gt; there is nothing moving at all. Each frame is complete. Each &lt;br /&gt; moment is completely not-moving action.&lt;span style="color: blue"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Our minds and the whole universe are like that. This world is &lt;br /&gt; impermanent. Everything is always changing, changing, changing, &lt;br /&gt; moving, moving, moving, nonstop. Even one second of our &lt;br /&gt; lives seems full of so much movement and change in this &lt;br /&gt; world that we see. But your mind--right &lt;em&gt;now&lt;/em&gt;--is like &lt;br /&gt; a lens whose shutter speed is one divided by infinite time. &lt;br /&gt; We call that moment-mind. If you attain that mind, then &lt;br /&gt; this whole world&amp;#039;s movement stops. From moment to moment &lt;br /&gt; you can see this world completely stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. &lt;br /&gt; Stop. Stop. Like the film, you perceive every frame--&lt;em&gt;this&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt; moment--which is infinitely still and complete. In the frame, &lt;br /&gt; nothing is moving. There is no time, and nothing appears &lt;br /&gt; or disappears in that box. But this movie projector--your &lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;thinking&lt;/em&gt; mind--is always moving, around and around &lt;br /&gt; and around, so you experience this world as constantly moving &lt;br /&gt; and you constantly experience change, which is impermanence. &lt;br /&gt; You lose moment-mind by following your conceptual thinking, &lt;br /&gt; believing that it is real.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 02:48:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574653</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T02:48:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574618</link> <description>That clears things up in an intellectual way, though it&amp;#039;s difficult to imagine for me. Your quote reminds me of http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Uji_Welch.htm&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I see why Shinzen Young draws analogies between flow and differential calculus. &amp;#039;Perceiving impermanence&amp;#039; is some kind of quirky differential operator on the &amp;#039;Field&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for taking the time to dig that out</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 01:57:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574618</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T01:57:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574600</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thanks. I&amp;#039;ve neglected tuning into this aspect in my practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I wonder, how does atemporality manifest experientially upon &amp;#039;arahatship&amp;#039;?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;From my experience yes the realization of anatta which daniel described in mctb 4th path does lead to atemporality. Wrote this two years ago: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Roboto&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Droid&amp;#x20;Sans&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Time is just a construct like self. The notion that it takes time for me to walk from point A to B, which implies distance, space and time, deconstructs when we realize there is no atemporal abiding entity or self that is the traveller (this implies I am a truly existing atemporal self that is separate from time/the stream of transient phenomenality, which is not the case). In fact there is not even &amp;#039;traveling&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;movement&amp;#039; when Point A is only point A or being-time-A, point B is only point B being-time-B, each instant is whole and complete - there is nothing subjective or objective that is separate from each time-instant that abides and travels from A to B. Where time is being and being is time (things do not occur &amp;#039;in&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;pass through&amp;#039; time - they ARE time, as everything is irremediably temporal), there is Only being-time which is the sun and the moon and the stars, wherein there is neither an atemporal object passing through time nor an atemporal subject witnessing or passing through the passage of time and space from one point to another, and neither is it the case of one thing becoming another thing (winter is winter, spring is spring, winter does not turn into spring). Each instance of sight, sound, etc, is an entire and whole being-time independent of past and future (it occupies or IS a unique manifestation-position), yet inclusive of all causes and conditions spanning all time-space in a single moment that transcends the structures of time-object-self dichotomy. Each instant is a happening without movement. Time stops in the midst of temporality but Not by transcending to some unmoved backdrop.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2014 00:26:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574600</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-28T00:26:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574586</link> <description>@DW&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hm.. I wonder if that time synch was in addition to arahatship or if he lost it when he started practicing actualism and then regained it later.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, colors were only slightly more bright on shrooms, for me &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@MW&lt;br /&gt;Your explanation of atemporality is close to my understanding. And, I still wonder why light in particular is so often involved in metaphors about enLIGHTenment.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 23:34:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574586</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T23:34:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574167</link> <description>I can offer you my perspective on atemporality. Things really clicked when I made a brief pass through EQ last year as far as &amp;#034;time&amp;#034; goes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Poorly perceived, it seems that there is a past, a present, and a future. But if you drop to the level of bare sensations, you see that there is no &amp;#034;past&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;future.&amp;#034; There are just mental images, thoughts, and feelings occurring now. All sensations are occurring now, never at any other time than now. At the level of bare sensate experience, there are just flickering, fluxing sensations that are occurring in the present moment. To sound a bit more poetic, what we think of as &amp;#034;time&amp;#034; is nothing more than changes in space occurring in the eternal present moment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for intrinsic luminosity, I don&amp;#039;t think it has anything to do with clear light or how reality looks, at least not the way that Daniel talks about it. When we say that all phenomena are luminous, this means that they are self-manifesting and self-aware... if that makes sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Again, at the level of bare sensations, it makes no sense to say that &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; am aware of a mosquito buzzing. Rather, there are a bunch of sensations of a body, mental processes, hearing the buzzing, all interspersed with one another, and all these sensations are aware of themselves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe if I get drunk I will be better able to articulate this...</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 00:49:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574167</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T00:49:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574142</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#039;Atemporality&amp;#039; makes little sense to me. I do realize that time is abstracted from changing events. For example, on marijuana time seems to go slow because (at least in part) phenomena seem to be changing more rapidly (especially thoughts) so our ability to gauge changes in &amp;#039;objective time&amp;#039; is stunted. But I get the feeling that this atemporality point is more subtle than that. Does the aforementioned &amp;#039;time abstraction&amp;#039; process stop at &amp;#039;arahatship&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;If anyone can clear up these points, especially the atemporality it&amp;#039;d be helpful. &lt;br /&gt;EDIT:&lt;br /&gt;Oh, and I&amp;#039;m not sure to what &amp;#039;intrinsic luminosity&amp;#039; refers. Related to &amp;#039;Clear Light&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Chronoception - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Time_perception"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_perception&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From thread - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5542824&amp;#x23;_19_message_5542979"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;RE: Post 4th Path Practices&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;sourced from Daniels website - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;integrateddaniel&amp;#x2e;info&amp;#x2f;my-experiments-in-actualism&amp;#x2f;"&gt;My Experiments in Actualism&lt;/a&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It felt like some part of things directly related to time and some perception of time synchronized in some way that I found totally surprising. The analogy that always comes most readily to mind is that of an engine with its timing belt off one notch: it will run, but it will shake just a bit, or perhaps a lot, depending on the engine. Yet, strangely, this was a shaking I never really noticed until suddenly it was as if the timing belt of the mind jumped back into the right alignment and suddenly the subtle shaking stopped. The entrance to this was not during a Fruition, making this the first of two major shifts that would involve some seemingly somewhat permanent (who though who knows, really) transition into an alternate and better way of perceiving reality that didn&amp;#039;t involve that entrance into it.&lt;br /&gt;After that, time pressure was suddenly really different and seemed nearly totally eliminated. Further, the perception of time itself was totally different. Whereas before I could clearly see that time was constructed of thoughts of past and future happening now, and that was something that I could notice when attention turned that way it had taken that sort of attention to that specific aspect of things to receive that benefit of seeing through time creation itself. Now it seemed that those benefits were now hard-wired into my baseline way of being, and those benefits were immediately obvious.&lt;br /&gt;I felt better, clearer, more easy. The Dark Night of my Actualism phase seemed to have vanished. Suddenly I felt that I had gotten what I was looking for, that some new window had been opened, that something was now activated and working through old structures again, a feeling I hadn&amp;#039;t had since April, 2003. What was interesting is that this was not at all what my friends were talking about, though they had mentioned things about time effects that were similar, and yet it seemed to be where those practices lead for me. I must assume that some aspect of this is idiosyncratic, though I have a few friends who have described the elimination of time pressure also, just at a totally different phase of their practice and by slightly different methods.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;My stab at describing &amp;#039;intrinsic luminosity&amp;#039; is that it is similar to how realty gets when on a slight amount of mushrooms. (way before any hallucinations) Nature gets crisp and clear and a little more 3d. Things are more beautiful without being able to say exactly why. Does that help?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 22:39:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574142</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T22:39:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574122</link> <description>Thanks. I&amp;#039;ve neglected tuning into this aspect in my practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I wonder, how does atemporality manifest experientially upon &amp;#039;arahatship&amp;#039;?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 21:04:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574122</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T21:04:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573593</link> <description>Try this talk:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;teacher&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;talk&amp;#x2f;11929&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/11929/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Time and emptiness of time&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The brain is clumping a highly detailed and complex universe into simplified objects.  Inherent existence is how we look at objects, which is to treat them as if they don&amp;#039;t break down into smaller parts and that they have no causes.  We want to cling to them to get permanent happiness. To&lt;strong&gt; not&lt;/strong&gt; believe in inherent existence is to believe that all objects can be broken down into smaller parts and are all made of cause and effect. This applies to dependent arising (us).  The concepts in dependent arising point to an ultimate but the 12 links themselves do not inherently exist. They are just useful pointers.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be good to read some Nagarjuna and brush up on the middle path&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;amazon&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;Nagarjuna-Richard-H-Jones&amp;#x2f;dp&amp;#x2f;1451539797&amp;#x2f;ref&amp;#x3d;sr_1_3&amp;#x3f;ie&amp;#x3d;UTF8&amp;#x26;qid&amp;#x3d;1409021352&amp;#x26;sr&amp;#x3d;8-3&amp;#x26;keywords&amp;#x3d;Nagarjuna"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/Nagarjuna-Richard-H-Jones/dp/1451539797/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;amp;qid=1409021352&amp;amp;sr=8-3&amp;amp;keywords=Nagarjuna&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;Time does not inherently exist, because the past, the present, and the future are dependent on each other (verse 29). Phenomena which are time-dependent, in their beginning, continuing, and ending in relation to each other, are thus not inherently existent.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 02:57:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573593</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T02:57:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Atemporality(?) and Ultimate Reality</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573565</link> <description>In Daniel&amp;#039;s essay on the Brahmaviharas he lists several aspects of &amp;#039;Ultimate Reality&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;ol style="list-style: decimal outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;Complete Interdependence&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Perfect Lawful Causality&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Total Agencylessness&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Total Centerpointlessness&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Total Subjectlessness&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;That Manifestation=Awareness both ontologically and geo-spacially.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Atemporality&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Total Boundarylessness&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&amp;#039;Atemporality&amp;#039; makes little sense to me. I do realize that time is abstracted from changing events. For example, on marijuana time seems to go slow because (at least in part) phenomena seem to be changing more rapidly (especially thoughts) so our ability to gauge changes in &amp;#039;objective time&amp;#039; is stunted. But I get the feeling that this atemporality point is more subtle than that. Does the aforementioned &amp;#039;time abstraction&amp;#039; process stop at &amp;#039;arahatship&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a minor quibble with 5. Isn&amp;#039;t Total Objectlessness equally true? It seems to me that Total Subjectlessness corresponds to a Noself perspective and Total Objectlessness corresponds to a True Self perspective.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, Manifestation=Awareness geospacially refers to the fact that awareness can be considered an extraneous concept because sensations are simply manifest and &amp;#039;aware where they are&amp;#039;. Or, in other words, there are just sensations; sensations and awareness can&amp;#039;t be separated. And, Manifestation=Awareness ontologically is a more &amp;#039;mystical&amp;#039; statement along the lines of ideas like Primordial Awareness, panpsychism, and/or pantheism. That right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If anyone can clear up these points, especially the atemporality it&amp;#039;d be helpful. Or, even, if anyone else is confused on any of these points feel free to post too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT:&lt;br /&gt;Oh, and I&amp;#039;m not sure to what &amp;#039;intrinsic luminosity&amp;#039; refers. Related to &amp;#039;Clear Light&amp;#039;?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:40:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573565</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T00:40:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym &amp; Terms Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5280844</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Zendo Calrissian:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Forgive my ignorance, but I&amp;#039;ve seen the term &amp;#034;OP&amp;#034; used a number of times. Can someone enlighten me to its meaning?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Without context I can&amp;#039;t be sure, but I think it means &amp;#034;Original Poster&amp;#034;, as in, the person who started the thread. That &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;search&amp;#x3f;q&amp;#x3d;op&amp;#x2b;acronym&amp;#x26;oq&amp;#x3d;op&amp;#x2b;acronym&amp;#x26;aqs&amp;#x3d;chrome&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x2e;69i57j0l5&amp;#x2e;684j0j7&amp;#x26;sourceid&amp;#x3d;chrome&amp;#x26;espv&amp;#x3d;210&amp;#x26;es_sm&amp;#x3d;91&amp;#x26;ie&amp;#x3d;UTF-8"&gt;isn&amp;#039;t specific to this board&lt;/a&gt;.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:17:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5280844</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-10T19:17:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym &amp; Terms Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5280837</link> <description>Forgive my ignorance, but I&amp;#039;ve seen the term &amp;#034;OP&amp;#034; used a number of times. Can someone enlighten me to its meaning?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:11:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5280837</guid> <dc:creator>Zendo Calrissian</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-10T19:11:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: New word for Enlightened</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5217538</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have been reading about de-personalisation / de-realisation disorder recently - DP/DR which is a recognised medical condition which bears some similarities to the basic awakened condition and maybe a term based on that like&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Liberated DPDR, or sane DPDR , or healthy DPDR maybe?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;or just full time non-dual perception, or non-dual awareness (which seems to be starting to be used in science literature) is good I think.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree that the terms like enlightenment &amp;amp; awakening are too loaded. However there is a more basic problem - that even if you explain the condition of perceptual non-duality to someone, without using the E-word, they still become scared/offended, just because the concept of it is terrifying to the &amp;#039;self&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Agreed 100%. I find it fascinating (and somewhat sad) to see how peoples ego&amp;#039;s immediatly go into self-defense mode no matter how the subject is being discussed. It seems as if even when the &amp;#039;conscious&amp;#039; part of the ego can&amp;#039;t understand the subject, the defenses still go up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is basically why I&amp;#039;ve all but stopped talking about the issue completely unless the person is quite obviously not just interested but willing to let go of the idea of separation. Considering my context, living in the worlds least spiritual country, this makes my social interactions limited, which happens to suit me fine at this time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe just &amp;#034;Liberated&amp;#034; would be a good substitution? It has positive (but still mildly threatening/radical connotations) and is not usually connected to religion or spirituality...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Namaste</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Feb 2014 21:59:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5217538</guid> <dc:creator>Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-18T21:59:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: New word for Enlightened</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5217514</link> <description>I have been reading about de-personalisation / de-realisation disorder recently - DP/DR which is a recognised medical condition which bears some similarities to the basic awakened condition and maybe a term based on that like&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Liberated DPDR, or sane DPDR , or healthy DPDR maybe?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;or just full time non-dual perception, or non-dual awareness (which seems to be starting to be used in science literature) is good I think.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree that the terms like enlightenment &amp;amp; awakening are too loaded. However there is a more basic problem - that even if you explain the condition of perceptual non-duality to someone, without using the E-word, they still become scared/offended, just because the concept of it is terrifying to the &amp;#039;self&amp;#039;.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Feb 2014 20:49:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5217514</guid> <dc:creator>Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-18T20:49:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>New word for Enlightened</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5212016</link> <description>Personally I think the word &amp;#034;Enlightened&amp;#034; sounds a tad presumptious but more importantly has too many religious connotations as well as an aura of exclusiveness. Don&amp;#039;t get me wrong, I agree with SG that it&amp;#039;s the most awesome and important thing in the universe, I just find that the word itself seems to do more harm than good.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In order to be constructive I&amp;#039;d like to offer two alternatives, one of my own and one that an enlightened woman who is very relaxed used.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My contribution: &lt;strong&gt;Ego-deprived&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Enlightened womans contribution: &lt;strong&gt;Totally&lt;/strong&gt; normal&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also like the expressions &amp;#034;ditched the split&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;flipped the switch&amp;#034;.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:42:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5212016</guid> <dc:creator>Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-16T22:42:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Looking for a specific pali sutta</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5182670</link> <description>Hey, I am trying to find a pali sutta I read before.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It was something like this: In it, someone asked the buddha about what are the beliefs necessary to follow the buddhadharma. And the buddha answered that, when feeling a sensation, you believe that you felt that sensation, then that was enough faith.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I might have missed some details. Does someone know which sutta is this? I saw it in www.accesstoinsight.org and no, it&amp;#039;s not canki sutta or kalama sutta, and it was relatively short&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks</description> <pubDate>Mon, 03 Feb 2014 23:02:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5182670</guid> <dc:creator>John P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-03T23:02:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Kilesa-vāsanā &amp; Jneya-āvaraṇā: Request for info</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5054728</link> <description>:-) Many thanks for the welcome &lt;span style="font-family: tahoma"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: red"&gt;N&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: inherit"&gt;a&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: yellow"&gt;t&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: green"&gt;h&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: blue"&gt;a&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: inherit"&gt;n&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;! And for your suggestion of checking the &lt;em&gt;V’magga&lt;/em&gt;…I’ve perused Bhikkhu Ñanamoli’s translation (including notes), but not found specific reference to kilesa-vasana or jñeyavarana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, there is reference in the &lt;em&gt;V’magga&lt;/em&gt; to the &lt;em&gt;sabbaññuta-ñāṇa&lt;/em&gt; (all-knowing/omniscient knowledge; Skt: &lt;em&gt;sārvajña-jñāṇa&lt;/em&gt;) and &lt;em&gt;anāvaraṇa-ñāṇa&lt;/em&gt; (unobscured/‘unobstructed’ knowledge; Skt: &lt;em&gt;anāvaraṇa-jñāṇa&lt;/em&gt;), around which appear differing interpretations…who’da thunk it?!:-) The topics aren’t unrelated to this thread. For several years I have amateurishly sallied into seeking explanations of these terms (e.g &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;rywiki&amp;#x2e;tsadra&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x2f;Omniscience"&gt;omniscience&lt;/a&gt;), but so far remain uncertain where &amp;#039;jñeyavarana&amp;#039; fit into some.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Checking a hunch on what might be the Pali term for &lt;em&gt;jñeyāvaraṇa&lt;/em&gt;, I found an online abstract from the &lt;em&gt;Journal of Buddhist Ethics&lt;/em&gt;, which mentions Venerable Pilindavaccha. In author Peter Harvey’s words…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;A seeming case of an unbroken negative pattern in an Arahat is, though, found at Ud.28-9. The monk Pilindavaccha speaks to other monks in disrespectful terms used to address outcastes; when the Buddha investigates the cause of this, he explains it as due to Pilindavaccha having been a proud Brahmin for his last five hundred lives. That is, his behavior is purely habitual. However, the Buddha says that it is not due to hatred, implying that it is to be seen as a harmless empty shell or echo of past bad behavior. The commentary (Ud.A.192-196) sees the monk as an Arahat and says that his behavior was due to unabandoned &amp;#034;impressions stemming from the defilements&amp;#034; (kilesa-vasanas) (193). It explains such &amp;#034;impressions&amp;#034; thus:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting, is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition (adhimutti) of such a kind. It is not, however, to be found in the continuity of the Lord, wherein the defilements have ... been abandoned by way of abandoning any obstruction to that which is knowable (neyyavarana) (Ud.A.194).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;That is, even enlightened people, apart from the Buddha, have character features related to past bad karma, even when such features no longer issue from current mental defilements.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So the Pali for &lt;em&gt;jñeyāvaraṇa&lt;/em&gt; (conceptual veils) is &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;neyyāvaraṇa&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: inherit"&gt;*&lt;/span&gt;!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you again for your input, Nathan. All the best to you (-:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: inherit"&gt;* Not ‘talking at’ you, Nathan, but just a footnote for the sake of the practical purpose of this thread, I should add that, having become aware of a ‘conceptual veil’ (such as conceiving beings belonging to a particular physical group as inherently spiritually inferior, despite oneself having no attachment to superiority or to subtle illusoryself-grasping) one may look into ones reasons for it and, through insight, abandon it, which unfortunately has not been mentioned in the two quotes I’ve produced. Unintended harm can result from conceptual veils.&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:45:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5054728</guid> <dc:creator>Anne Cripps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-18T10:45:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Kilesa-vāsanā &amp; Jneya-āvaraṇā: Request for info</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5040415</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Anne Cripps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;:-) Many thanks, Nathan; I&amp;#039;ve ordered a copy, and will post details.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Your welcome and, Welcome! Welcome to the DO - the home on the Range with all of the Dude&amp;#039;s.&lt;br /&gt;Hopefully I&amp;#039;m not completely off about this one, it was not my most stellar Monday ever, if I&amp;#039;m off base on this, I&amp;#039;ll buy your copy off of you! I&amp;#039;m a fan of the Buddhaghostie, he&amp;#039;s the mostie. You may well find most of what you&amp;#039;re after in his big book of lists - The Visuddhi&amp;#039;s-MaggaZine. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;static&amp;#x2e;sirimangalo&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;vism&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;triplethink /// 2REM / 2WIT / Touche&amp;#039;d &amp;amp; a microphone</description> <pubDate>Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:31:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5040415</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-17T12:31:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Kilesa-vāsanā &amp; Jneya-āvaraṇā: Request for info</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5040167</link> <description>:-) Many thanks, Nathan; I&amp;#039;ve ordered a copy, and will post details.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:58:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5040167</guid> <dc:creator>Anne Cripps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-17T05:58:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Kilesa-vāsanā &amp; Jneya-āvaraṇā: Request for info</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5038899</link> <description>If I recall correctly there is a relevant footnote in the more recent PTS translation of the Parinibbana of the Buddha somewhere early in some included footnotes drawn from commentary attributed to Buddhaghosa. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll try to find some links...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;ok, here you are:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The Buddha’s Last Days: Buddhaghosa’s Commentary on the Mahaparinibbana Sutta&lt;br /&gt;trans. Yang-Gyu An, 2003&lt;br /&gt;ISBN 0 86013 405 9&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;£17.60 &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=""&gt; www.palitext.com &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;analogy of vasana equates the kilesas with fish that have been carried in a bag (mental continuum), the vasana being the pong that remains in the bag once the fish have been removed.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Again, if I am not misconstruing my recollection of the reference, this relation to the stink of fish or to the stages of a fire going out in relation to disturbances of the mental continuum is treated in four stages in an early footnote within the first few pages of this excellent new translation. It has been about a decade since I passed along my copy of this work and so I do not have one to hand to quote from for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- triplethink</description> <pubDate>Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:58:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5038899</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-16T19:58:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Kilesa-vāsanā &amp; Jneya-āvaraṇā: Request for info</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5038887</link> <description>:-) Hi DhOers!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am seeking information on Theravadin teachings about &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;kilesa-vāsanā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; (which may be translated as impressions/imprints/ perfumes of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_(Buddhism)]kilesas; Skt: &lt;em&gt;kleśa-vāsanā&lt;/em&gt;) and &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;jneya-āvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;/&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;jneyāvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; (which may be translated as coverings/ obscurations/obstructions of what-is-to-be-known; I don&amp;#039;t know the Pali, and have given anglo-Sanskrit for this latter term). Mahayana and Theravada teachings agree that these remain, until dealt with, in the mental continua of persons who have reached the 8th Mahayana Bhumi or 4th Theravada Stage: thus I think this subject may be of interest to others on DhO.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A common analogy of vasana equates the kilesas with fish that have been carried in a bag (mental continuum), the vasana being the pong that remains in the bag once the fish have been removed. The only reference I have found to kilesa-vasana in my admittedly meagre Theravadin literature appears in &lt;em&gt;A Treatise on the Paramis&lt;/em&gt; by Acariya Dhammapala, as a note to eradicating the “mental impression of hatred”, in the section on &amp;#034;the method of practising the &lt;em&gt;perfection of virtue&lt;/em&gt;”. The note is also the only obvious reference to the jneyavarana that I have seen so far in Theravadin literature…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;On the subject of the &lt;em&gt;vāsanā&lt;/em&gt; or “mental impressions” the commentary to the Udāna says: The &lt;em&gt;vāsanā&lt;/em&gt; are particular dispositions to actions existing as a mere potential force built up through the defilements that have been brought into play through the course of beginningless time. Found in the mental continua even of those who are devoid of defilements (i.e of arahats), they function as springs for conduct similar to the conduct followed while the defilements were yet unabandoned. In the case of the Exalted Buddhas, who through the fulfilment of their original aspiration abandon the defilements along with the obstruction of the knowable [&lt;em&gt;jneya-āvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;/&lt;em&gt;jneyāvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;], no &lt;em&gt;vāsanā&lt;/em&gt; remain in their mental continuities. But in the case of disciple-arahats and pacchekabuddhas, who abandon the defilements without removing the obstruction of the knowable, the &lt;em&gt;vāsanā&lt;/em&gt; remain.” The classical example of this is the case of the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x3f;id&amp;#x3d;kIllG8k-OmIC&amp;#x26;pg&amp;#x3d;PA41&amp;#x26;lpg&amp;#x3d;PA41&amp;#x26;dq&amp;#x3d;pilindavaccha&amp;#x2b;buddha&amp;#x26;source&amp;#x3d;bl&amp;#x26;ots&amp;#x3d;dDwadWDOpP&amp;#x26;sig&amp;#x3d;aEzXNZ66scOnXbYysWBT-A-a5H0&amp;#x26;hl&amp;#x3d;en&amp;#x26;sa&amp;#x3d;X&amp;#x26;ei&amp;#x3d;b0mvUrrrMISshQf6vICIBw&amp;#x26;redir_esc&amp;#x3d;y&amp;#x23;v&amp;#x3d;onepage&amp;#x26;q&amp;#x3d;pilindavaccha&amp;#x25;20buddha&amp;#x26;f&amp;#x3d;false"&gt;Venerable Pilindavaccha&lt;/a&gt; who, though an arahat, continued to address other bhikkhus by the word &lt;em&gt;vasala&lt;/em&gt; [outcast; person of low birth], a derogatory term used by brahmins to refer to those of low caste. This bhikkhu, however, did not use the word due to conceit or contempt for others, both of which defilements he had utterly destroyed, but merely through the habitual force of past usage, since he had been a brahmin through many previous lives. See Ud.III,6 and its commentary.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The case of Pilindavaccha appears just to be a verbal habit but the vasana can also affect thinking, and so speech and action based on that thinking. (Kilesa-vasana are not to be confused with the &lt;em&gt;kilesāvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;, obstructions to liberation, i.e to arhathood.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The above reference to “the obstruction of the knowable” suggests that a term similar to &lt;em&gt;jneya-āvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;/&lt;em&gt;jneyāvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt; is known in the Theravada. In the Mahayana (where this terms is also sometimes confusingly translated as “obstructions to omniscience”) the jneyavarana include both kleśa-vasana (Pali: &lt;em&gt;kilesa-vāsanā&lt;/em&gt;) and imprints of illusoryself-grasping (Skt: &lt;em&gt;ātma-grāha-vāsanā&lt;/em&gt;), the latter giving rise to subtle dualistic perceiving (hence the Mahayana reference to realising the ‘emptiness of phenomena’, such as the skandhas, in addition to realising the &amp;#039;emptiness of a self imputed upon the skandhas&amp;#039;). The 8th bhumi and beyond is occupied with clearing up the jneyavarana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any info from Theravadin sources on the &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;kilesa-vāsanā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; and whatever-the-Pali-is-for &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;jneya-āvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;/&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;jneyāvaraṇā&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; would be much appreciated. (-:</description> <pubDate>Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:34:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5038887</guid> <dc:creator>Anne Cripps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-16T19:34:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4889424</link> <description>Dharma gives promise than when one is more mindful then Dark Night will change into Equanimity&lt;br /&gt;so someone who suffers from depression caused by spiritual experiences can have hope for better future and little push to practice more and in the end end DN that can last for many years&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;it is more important than some nocebo/scripting that actually can also be source for insight, especially in overcoming negative scripting and falling into nocebos &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and if someone is master scripter then what is wrong with it?&lt;br /&gt;sometimes scripting overlaps real thing. How some experiences from Buddhist tradition don&amp;#039;t happen in this way with traditions that describe them differently?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 16 Nov 2013 21:31:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4889424</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-16T21:31:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4886147</link> <description>The reason I believe we shouldn&amp;#039;t worry too much about scripting is that you can&amp;#039;t script yourself forever, or if you do, you are just too good at self-delusion to ever make any progress, with or without map. Eventually, the false diagnosis will end up being questionned. If someone believe he is stuck in a stage he isn&amp;#039;t he will works to get unstuck anyway. On the opposite, if someone believe he is make progress that he isn&amp;#039;t really making, he will eventually it a wall. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On the other hand, when you know the map, eventually you will end up being able to self-diagnose yourself. It might take a while to get it right but this period of adjustment is definitely worth it as it will make things much easier after that.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:52:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4886147</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-15T17:52:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4885304</link> <description>Hey, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Four years ago, I experienced very intense dark night symptoms on a meditation retreat doing vipassana meditation. I had never heard of the dark night of the soul, the teachers on the retreat didn&amp;#039;t tell me anything, they seemed as surprised and shocked by what as I was going through as I was. I had to leave the retreat early, and I continued to suffer from intermittent terror, misery, and disgust for the next two and a half years. Because I lacked the maps, I had no idea what was happening to me, and this made everything many times worse. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I only discovered Daniel&amp;#039;s work a month ago, and it was absolutely shocking to me how closely it fit my completely unscripted experiences. In the years between the onset of dark night stages and discovering Daniel&amp;#039;s work, I&amp;#039;ve looked at numerous other models of the dark night including the Grof&amp;#039;s work, stuff on Kundalini awakenings, St John, and so on. None of them were as helpful as Daniel&amp;#039;s model. It does seem that not everybody experiences the same intensity of challenging experiences, but I have met several other people whose lives have been completely torn apart because of dark night stuff triggered on silent meditation retreats. Often the teachers don&amp;#039;t offer any guidance because they either don&amp;#039;t know the maps, or else don&amp;#039;t want to share them openly. This can literally be crazy making for some people, and in my view, Daniel&amp;#039;s efforts to get this info out to the public is of profound service. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Avi</description> <pubDate>Fri, 15 Nov 2013 05:47:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4885304</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-15T05:47:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Zen and Vipassana : Identification and non-Identification</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4806926</link> <description>dear mario,&lt;br /&gt;you don&amp;#039;t know how happy I am to read your reply.&lt;br /&gt;It is quite hard for me to find people who can understand me and are interested in similar things. what you wrote about: &amp;#039;play with unification with different things&amp;#039; - I did that too. &lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d love to share with you some more of my explorations.&lt;br /&gt;if you&amp;#039;re interested, feel free to contact me:&lt;br /&gt;skype: tomer.boyarski&lt;br /&gt;email: tomer_b_t@yahoo.com&lt;br /&gt;with metta from israel &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Oct 2013 03:32:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4806926</guid> <dc:creator>Tomer Boyarski</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-15T03:32:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Zen and Vipassana : Identification and non-Identification</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4805726</link> <description>Hi!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve come to similar conclusions, as far as the differences between vipassana and zen are concerned. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think that what you call mini-non duality is what in MCTB is called a unitive experience, except that Daniel uses it mostly to refer to hightly concentrated formless states. So, zen unity, mahasi duality and enlightnment non-duality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There has also been a time where I used to play with unification with different things, with some kind of bent towards the observation of impermanence, as in, &amp;#034;Let&amp;#039;s see if I can detect how every moemnt I&amp;#039;m unified with some slightly different object in a slightly different way&amp;#034;. This used to lead in a very short time to wonderful experiences of deep well-being; I still can do that, but for some reason I&amp;#039;m not so interested, in this period I&amp;#039;m inclined toward different things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as the question goes: if I focus on an object, it might happen that there are sensations around the third eye that seems to imply &amp;#034;me becoming that object&amp;#034;; if I observe them there is classical duality between me vs object and third eye sensations, if I don&amp;#039;t there is a plaesent, mildly concentrated unitive state.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bye!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are playing around with these things, you might try to look for Kenneth Folk&amp;#039;s second gear, where you get identified with the witness and wait there until you drop into non-duality</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:30:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4805726</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-14T09:30:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Zen and Vipassana : Identification and non-Identification</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4805710</link> <description>these are two posts from my practice log in &amp;#039;awakenetwork&amp;#039;. sorry If it&amp;#039;s a little unedited and messy:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;it&amp;#039;s been well over a year now since I first heard of people doing practices like looking at candle flames and experiencing things like becoming the candle flame and it was a few monthes ago that i really started to wonder how it is that i didn&amp;#039;t get such experiences in spite of what i thought was good quality high quantity practice. The answer was that long after i started expanding my practice from my original Mahasi background and even after the newer influences, like Shinzen, seemed to become more or at least equally dominant, there was still a trate of non-indentification (or NoSelf, to use a more common term) wraped up inside my mindfulness. This idea, that &amp;#039;whatever i observe is not me, is not the observer&amp;#039;, was a big part of my Mahasi training and became a centeral part in the way I intuited or &amp;#039;felt&amp;#039; what mindfulness is, when was I really doing it right and when I was not. realizing all of this, I also realized the flip side, that I could integrate mindfulness with identification, eso I started have cool, fun, interesting, deep experiences of becoming stuff: apples, walls, emotions, the sky... everything I wanted! Certainly this is bringing flexibility into the sense of self. I believe this is also leading me in the direction of nonDual awareness. this is sort of &amp;#039;mini nonDuality&amp;#039;. Not the great nonDuality of myself with everything at once, but rather only one thing at a time, but it&amp;#039;s a start, and it feels like I&amp;#039;m going in the right direction. More theoretically, and with the risk of sounding grand, I believe this is the difference between Vipassana and Tao~Zen style mindfulness: identifying vs. non-indentifying.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here is what i&amp;#039;m interested in: when you focus on an object, be it for a very long or very short period of time, do you experience &amp;#039;becoming&amp;#039; that object, &amp;#039;unbecoming&amp;#039; that object, neither, or this whole terminology just doesn&amp;#039;t mean a thing to you? other possible wording: identification increasing/decreasing/not changing. typical vipassana example: I am in Pain (physical or emotional) -&amp;gt; I have Pain -&amp;gt; there is Pain = process of identification reducing. typical Zen example: There is me and there is a wall -&amp;gt; I am connected to the wall -&amp;gt; I am the wall = process of identification reducing.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:01:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4805710</guid> <dc:creator>Tomer Boyarski</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-14T09:01:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4708321</link> <description>I agree with Katy. Tathagata-garbha sounds like the word you&amp;#039;re looking for. &amp;#034;Garbha&amp;#034; means &amp;#034;womb&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;matrix,&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;tathagata&amp;#034; is the way the Buddha referred to himself, the &amp;#034;thus-gone&amp;#034; one. So &amp;#034;tathagata-garbha&amp;#034; means that every being is like a womb that can produce a Buddha.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:49:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4708321</guid> <dc:creator>Derek Cameron</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-14T14:49:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4707847</link> <description>HI Conor,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I went to &amp;#039;Lord Internets&amp;#039; this morning; have you checked out this wikipedia page?&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe your answer is there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The DhO site members tend to discuss more often Theravadan practice and Pali canon and in that school of thought, as Bruno&amp;#039;s linked essay goes into a little, there&amp;#039;s not a corresponding idea for fundamentally Awake-nature, or Buddha-nature. Theravadan Abhidhamma develops an idea of bhavanga sota -- the undercurrent of each living being composed of moments of consciousness (cittas) and this undercurrent is like an ultimate reality in living being which is changing all the time, based on logical cause-and-effect. One could visually think of DNA replication graphics: instead of base pairs replicating, types of moments of consciousness and factors (unwholesome, wholesome, beautiful) give rise to similar types of consciousness and factors in a long string of cause-and-effect. A person can change their continuum of consciousness by choosing to develop wholesome and beautiful mental factors and moments of consciousness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the Awake-nature continuum of being, tathagatagarbha, there&amp;#039;s an understanding that the continuum of consciousness is ultimately awakened and so all beings would at some level &amp;#034;know&amp;#034; their fundamental nature.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, these two broad ideas arise &lt;strike&gt;because there&amp;#039;s a need to explain &lt;/strike&gt; &lt;span style="color: #B10ED9"&gt;in relation to&lt;/span&gt; rebirth cosmology &lt;span style="color: #B10ED9"&gt;explanations&lt;/span&gt; and &lt;strike&gt;its&lt;/strike&gt;cause-and-effect principle: how is it that I came into being with these attributes and conditions? Apparently, rebirth cosmology was not ubiquitous in Gotama&amp;#039;s day, that his study and practice lead him to have conviction in rebirth, that rebirth is an effect of prior causes (&amp;#034;previous supporting conditions&amp;#034;).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, the cosmological theories can make sati, vipassana, and samatha learning seem easy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span style="color: #B10ED9"&gt;edit: in this color&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Sep 2013 08:52:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4707847</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-14T08:52:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4707655</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Is it tathagatagarbha? I think garbha is literally &amp;#034;Container&amp;#034; and tathagatha is maybe &amp;#034;thus one gone&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Tathagatagarbha means &amp;#034;Buddha-nature&amp;#034;. I seem to remember that there&amp;#039;s some word that means &amp;#034;the teaching that all beings have Buddha-nature&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Sep 2013 04:56:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4707655</guid> <dc:creator>Conor O'Higgins</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-14T04:56:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4697879</link> <description>On the topic of buddha nature, I love &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;freedomfrombuddhanature&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:44:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4697879</guid> <dc:creator>Bruno Loff</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-13T08:44:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4693502</link> <description>Hi Conor,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is it tathagatagarbha? I think garbha is literally &amp;#034;Container&amp;#034; and tathagatha is maybe &amp;#034;thus one gone&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Caution! I could be completely wrongo-bongo.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I&amp;#039;m not mistaken (could be) I read this term in Thupten Jinpa&amp;#039;s book on self about two years ago?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck : ) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe let us know?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metta is awesome meditation...</description> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Sep 2013 02:08:38 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4693502</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-12T02:08:38Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Some questions about buddhist jargon - should be easy for buddhist scholars</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4692952</link> <description>What&amp;#039;s the word for &amp;#039;the doctrine that all beings have buddha-nature&amp;#039;? I know this doctrine has a particular term, but I can&amp;#039;t remember it...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In Mahayana especially, they keep teaching that all minds naturally move towards pleasant states and away from unpleasant ones. Considering this point is the start of metta meditation. Is there a technical term for this doctrine/teaching?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Sep 2013 00:06:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4692952</guid> <dc:creator>Conor O'Higgins</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-12T00:06:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My take on the flux state</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4553672</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;there would be intentions all over theplace, basically arising everytime I need to move a part of my body; on the other hand, there is the perfect flow state, where the action goes on by itself&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;funny, your hands know everything about moving and you don&amp;#039;t know squat about that so how could you possibly move your hands?&lt;br /&gt;try to REALLY move hands and see how fast and precisely you can do that and how hand feels after such enforcement...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In flow such illusion can&amp;#039;t work because action is too intense to impose illusion &amp;#034;I did it&amp;#034; to everything that your body did. It is also much easier to enter flow when in non-dual because it is kind of flow already</description> <pubDate>Thu, 08 Aug 2013 21:44:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4553672</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-08T21:44:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>My take on the flux state</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4552872</link> <description>There is something in western psychology known as Flow State, wich came out in a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;4301046"&gt;previous thread&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve experienced something like that in my life, as most of us did. I remember that,after having red that thread, I got in something like that while pealing a grapefruit. Then, today Ihad to do a long, boring manual task, and I realized at one point that it kind of happened again. However, this gave me the possibility to vipassanize it, and that&amp;#039;s, basically, the origin of this post.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I noticed is that, basically, while I am in a state like that, conscious intentions seems to be missing. In other words, the sensations that usually would seem to imply a subject making volitional acts during the process where not there. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, defining the flow state like that, we can concieve the usual human functioning and the pure flow state as two extremes of a continuum: so, for example, let&amp;#039;s say that you need to use a shred to dry a floor-flood (there is an uncanny lack of imagination here, since that&amp;#039;s whatI had to do today); usually, there would be intentions all over theplace, basically arising everytime I need to move a part of my body; on the other hand, there is the perfect flow state, where the action goes on by itself; [&amp;#034;by itself&amp;#034; here is not meant in an insight sense, it just mean that there are not sensations building up intentions arising]. In between, there is what I&amp;#039;m trying to do since a few hours, wich is trying to live closer and closer to that. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing that I noticed is that, when the state is quite deep, the facoulty of knowing what&amp;#039;s going on is not there as well; meaning, thoose sensations that, from an insight point of view, seems to imply an entity knowing what&amp;#039;s going on are not there. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, obviously these sensations arise and pass away like everything else, wich also mean that, in a way or another, we spend most of our time in a flux state, &amp;#039;cause thoose sensations arenot with us all the time. So, an interesting thing thatI&amp;#039;m trying to do is to incline themind toward thoose moment, and then hoping that they will happen by virtue of the resolution, without me knowing that, &amp;#039;cause if that would happen that woundn&amp;#039;t be it by definition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another interesting thing is that both sensations implying knowing and intentions are very much related with the third eye, so, an inibition of the flow of energies toward that chakra spot seem to be a charateristic of that state.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing that seems to be inherent in this state is what I&amp;#039;ll call &amp;#034;Singlemindedness&amp;#034;; my definition of it is something like this: the more the whole of one&amp;#039;s intentional activity is aimed at one purpose, the more there is singlemindedness; this obviously is somewhat problematic; however in my teo-hours-long-still-going-on experiment, I noticed thatin some reasonably flowing state of being there would be thoughts, wich obviously arise in a way thatis dependent upon some kind of intentional activity, soit might be useful in this context to assume the existence of intentions underneath the theshold of awareness. The more these intentions not arising in awareness, are focused, the more there is singlemindedness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, these three factors, -absence ofconscious intentions, absence of the knowing of what&amp;#039;s going on and singlemindedness- might be used to define how much we are close to an hipothetical perfect state of flow.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[disclaimer: not saying that this is the final word on the topic, just that seems to me to be a good start for trying to define it]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Others considerations:&lt;br /&gt;-being relaxed is compulsory, because if there are tensions or general unplaesent things going on there will also be the intention to do something about it, and the levels of singlemindedness will decrease&lt;br /&gt;-so, in a sense, it has to be plaesent by it&amp;#039;s own definition; however, I&amp;#039;m going to guess that the more the experience is relaxed and plaesent, the more the odds are that flow will happen&lt;br /&gt;-in relation to the list of symptoms of flow quoted by Simon T in the previous thread, one doesn&amp;#039;t really match with my take, wich is &amp;#034;a sense of personal control or agency over the situation or activity&amp;#034;; the others do, though things like &amp;#034;merging of action and awareness&amp;#034; seems to be not well defined; present moment awareness is usually not well defined in psychology, but it might just be that they mean what happens by default when thoughts are not there, wich might be what they mean by &amp;#034;loss of self reflective consiousness&amp;#034;, wich is also a word that might mean the same of what I mean with &amp;#034;absence of knowing&amp;#034;, and the fact that &amp;#034;the experience is intrisecally rewarding&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;alterated subjectibe experience of time&amp;#034; are consequence of the general plaesentness of the thing, wich as I mentioned above has to be there for intentions not to be there&lt;br /&gt;-the more complex a task is, the harder it is to make it flowing, because of many intentions going on at once that are, basically, the very definition of &amp;#034;complex task&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;PS: this post has been written in a mildly-flowing state; I&amp;#039;m not going to read it again, I&amp;#039;m totally scared at reading it again, &amp;#039;cause most of the time I wasn&amp;#039;t really knowing what I was writing, so please forgive me for every horror and nonsense that might be there...</description> <pubDate>Thu, 08 Aug 2013 19:36:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4552872</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-08T19:36:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188634</link> <description>Alright, I&amp;#039;ve put it in there, even though this is the first I&amp;#039;ve heard of it on these forums. Might as well though!</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:30:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188634</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-10T18:30:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188515</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jack Hatfield:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;RAIN: recognition, acceptance, investigation, and non-identification. It is a way to look at vipassana meditation. Recognition: I am aware of the itch on my nose. Acceptance: I will accept the itch as it is without avoiding it. Investigation: I will look closely at the itch. I might see it vibrate or turn into a desire to scratch it, for example. Non-identification: the itch is not me. It is an object experienced by...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know who came up with it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;jack&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Michele McDonald.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:52:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188515</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-10T16:52:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188277</link> <description>RAIN: recognition, acceptance, investigation, and non-identification. It is a way to look at vipassana meditation. Recognition: I am aware of the itch on my nose. Acceptance: I will accept the itch as it is without avoiding it. Investigation: I will look closely at the itch. I might see it vibrate or turn into a desire to scratch it, for example. Non-identification: the itch is not me. It is an object experienced by...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know who came up with it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;jack</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:26:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4188277</guid> <dc:creator>Jack Hatfield</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-10T14:26:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4184796</link> <description>What context is that in? Where did it come from, I mean? What would I link to in association with it?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:10:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4184796</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-09T14:10:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4181596</link> <description>RAIN stands for: recognition, acceptance, investigation, and non-identification.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Apr 2013 20:31:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4181596</guid> <dc:creator>Jack Hatfield</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-04-08T20:31:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4001098</link> <description>It seems that what actually happens more often in practice is people getting depressed for whatever reason, and then thinking they are experiencing the dukkha ñanas.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2013 05:03:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4001098</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-10T05:03:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000645</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;... every3rdthought ...:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; I&amp;#039;m not sure whether you wanted to conclude that we shouldn&amp;#039;t talk about dukkha nanas/dark night at all, in order to avoid a nocebo effect, or that we should call it &amp;#039;dukkha nanas&amp;#039; and not &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039;? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems like I was discussing the terminology.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 23:49:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000645</guid> <dc:creator>Some Guy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T23:49:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000593</link> <description>The heavyweight canonical source for &amp;#034;dukkha nanas&amp;#034; (both their existence, and the terminology of progressive Knowledges) is the Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga where they first get described, and in fairly serious terms - Knowledge of Fear for example is described using the simile of a woman with three sons who had seen the first two executed, and is now awaiting the execution of the third. Of course, not everyone thinks these should be considered definitive sources for what happens in meditation. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems like, as far as the DN experience, it&amp;#039;s very much a case of YMMV, but some people experience very intense DNs and of these, some will have expected that (if they knew about the Progress of Insight maps), but others won&amp;#039;t. I&amp;#039;m not sure whether you wanted to conclude that we shouldn&amp;#039;t talk about dukkha nanas/dark night at all, in order to avoid a nocebo effect, or that we should call it &amp;#039;dukkha nanas&amp;#039; and not &amp;#039;dark night&amp;#039;? - but from my perspective, the danger of someone hitting a DN style experience without knowing that it was possible or what it is, is much more serious than the possibility that talking about DN stages has a nocebo effect. For that reason, if I personally knew someone starting insight practice I would always warn them about this possibility.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 23:01:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000593</guid> <dc:creator>... every3rdthought ...</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T23:01:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000165</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;There have been various discussions here about the hazards of &amp;#034;scripting&amp;#034;. I&amp;#039;d previously concluded that I&amp;#039;d fallen prey to this myself on a couple of occasions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, it seemed more original in the middle of the night when I couldn&amp;#039;t sleep. There is an important difference though with nocebo, which is that it can induce real physiological changes. So, not only do you perceive things as worse than they are, they really are worse.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 20:36:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4000165</guid> <dc:creator>Some Guy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T20:36:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999998</link> <description>There have been various discussions here about the hazards of &amp;#034;scripting&amp;#034;. I&amp;#039;d previously concluded that I&amp;#039;d fallen prey to this myself on a couple of occasions.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:38:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999998</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T16:38:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999660</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve yet to come across any dire warnings from traditional sources. From the Buddha on down, they just say, this way freedom lies. If our practice is really *causing* so much misery, perhaps we&amp;#039;re doing it wrong? But I suspect it&amp;#039;s just that we live in a litigious society and are addicted to disclaimers and warnings. (BTW: lightning bolt + WARNING + Dark Night = nocebo effect. Maybe some pretty clouds and a drawing by Jane Rainbow wouldn&amp;#039;t be so bad afterall?)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Agree with you completely. I think it&amp;#039;s highly related to American culture, where people care a lot for their social image of &amp;#039;happiness&amp;#039;. So if a person intuitively discovers uncomfortable truths, it could be more dramatic to a person&amp;#039;s life there than in other countries. Almost a complete opposite to the USA&amp;#039;s sick relationship with joy and success is somewhere like Sweden, where something like a Dark Night experience would be validated and respected, look at Ingmar Bergman.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess the Buddha thought it was a given that deconstructing your reality for a better one would include uncomfortable moments.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 12:49:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999660</guid> <dc:creator>Joshua, the solitary</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T12:49:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Dukkha Nyanas and the Nocebo Effect</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999596</link> <description>Have you heard about the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;guardian&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;science&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;nov&amp;#x2f;13&amp;#x2f;nocebo-pain-wellcome-trust-prize"&gt;nocebo effect&lt;/a&gt;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;While an inert sugar pill (placebo) can make you feel better, warnings of fictional side-effects (nocebo) can make you feel those too. This is a common problem in pharmaceutical trials and a 1980s study found that heart patients were far more likely to suffer side-effects from their blood-thinning medication if they had first been warned of the medication&amp;#039;s side-effects. This poses an ethical quandary: should doctors warn patients about side-effects if doing so makes them more likely to arise?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, yes, they should. But they don&amp;#039;t need to scare people, and they can offer plenty of reassurance (placebo) to counterbalance the effect. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems to me that this has implications for the way we talk about the dark night. Firstly, just calling it the dark night conveys doom and gloom, besides referencing a belief system that includes an immortal soul and eternal damnation. When you consider placebo research, and how much very subtle things can effect significant clinical phenomena, this terminology could be detrimental. (In fact, it&amp;#039;s killing you! You can&amp;#039;t breathe Aaagh!!!! Jk.) If we call it what it is, dhukka nyanas, it would invite discussion of the meaning of dukkha. That in itself would lead to some skill and insight to help advance beyond them. Dhukka is a nuanced, flexible term. You can&amp;#039;t really use it without understanding a little about how fear/misery/disgust arise as mental fabrications. This already has some reassurance in it. The term dark night, on the other hand, has a tone of finality and doesn&amp;#039;t really teach you anything other than that you&amp;#039;re screwed! You were born bad, you pooped your pants, and now you&amp;#039;re going to pay! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My take is that the real danger is chronic yogi syndrome. If you&amp;#039;re practicing well, you are on your way through and beyond dukkha forever. If you&amp;#039;re not practicing well, then you are bound to be afflicted with dukkha forever. So rejoice, sheeples! Jk.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve yet to come across any dire warnings from traditional sources. From the Buddha on down, they just say, this way freedom lies. If our practice is really *causing* so much misery, perhaps we&amp;#039;re doing it wrong? But I suspect it&amp;#039;s just that we live in a litigious society and are addicted to disclaimers and warnings. (BTW: lightning bolt + WARNING + Dark Night = nocebo effect. Maybe some pretty clouds and a drawing by Jane Rainbow wouldn&amp;#039;t be so bad afterall?)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(There&amp;#039;s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;asserttrue&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2013&amp;#x2f;01&amp;#x2f;are-placebos-really-sugar-pills&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x3f;m&amp;#x3d;1"&gt;a funny caveat&lt;/a&gt; to the nocebo story. Turns out, only 8% of all clinical trials report the ingredients of their placebos. It&amp;#039;s common practice for them to use active ingredients that mimic known side effects of the med being tested, so the side-effects don&amp;#039;t show up as much in the final results. So, even if you do experience adverse reactions, you&amp;#039;re likely to be told you&amp;#039;re imagining it anyway. Bizarre.)</description> <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:32:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3999596</guid> <dc:creator>Some Guy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-02-09T11:32:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3968445</link> <description>Not a bad one to include here. I&amp;#039;ve re-titled this the acronym &amp;amp; terms thread =).</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:32:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3968445</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T20:32:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3968414</link> <description>I know it&amp;#039;s not an Acronym, but one thing I didn&amp;#039;t understand when it was mentioned was the term &amp;#034;The Mushroom Factor&amp;#034;, because the first time I read MCTB I skipped the &amp;#034;asterisk chapters&amp;#034;, and that&amp;#039;s where they are explained.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:13:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3968414</guid> <dc:creator>John P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T20:13:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966475</link> <description>HP - The Hamilton Project blog</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:40:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966475</guid> <dc:creator>Pål S.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T08:40:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966411</link> <description>Got it jake. So I deleted my stupid remark.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:25:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966411</guid> <dc:creator>C C C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T08:25:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966192</link> <description>Bhante G: Gunaratana</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:08:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3966192</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T07:08:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3965679</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Adam . .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;ADR I dont think we have to try too hard to sniff out trolls, if they want to troll, they&amp;#039;ll start trolling. The whole idea of trolling is to get attention so they aren&amp;#039;t going to be too sneaky.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What kind of a legitimate newcomer says &amp;#034;Ok, so far so good.&amp;#034; to a post going above &amp;amp; beyond addressing something they asked? &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Claudiu this doesn&amp;#039;t make *any* sense lol. What kind of legitimate host treats their guests with such presumption? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CCC, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even realize how silly it looks when you make such sweeping generalizations? I mean, when you actually contribute something from your experience there&amp;#039;s often a lot of value in it. If nothing else then it&amp;#039;s an honest report. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Seriously guys, sheesh &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 02:22:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3965679</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-31T02:22:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3922791</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Bhante V:&lt;/strong&gt; Vimalaramsi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;other Bhantes ???</description> <pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 18:59:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3922791</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-19T18:59:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3921748</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;The Eightfold Path: &lt;/strong&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is the mnemonic I used to memorize the skillful 8: &lt;strong&gt;VISA-LEM-C&lt;/strong&gt;. I pronounce it &amp;#034;vee-sah-lem-see.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. &lt;strong&gt;V&lt;/strong&gt;iew or understanding&lt;br /&gt;2. &lt;strong&gt;I&lt;/strong&gt;ntention or aspiration&lt;br /&gt;3. &lt;strong&gt;S&lt;/strong&gt;peech&lt;br /&gt;4. &lt;strong&gt;A&lt;/strong&gt;ction&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;5. &lt;strong&gt;L&lt;/strong&gt;ivelihood &lt;br /&gt;6. &lt;strong&gt;E&lt;/strong&gt;ffort&lt;br /&gt;7. &lt;strong&gt;M&lt;/strong&gt;indfulness&lt;br /&gt;8. &lt;strong&gt;C&lt;/strong&gt;oncentration&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cool thread, Beo.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 05:50:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3921748</guid> <dc:creator>Alvaro MDF</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-19T05:50:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3911763</link> <description>Idk haha, it&amp;#039;s just that James&amp;#039;s usual approach includes far more obscenity.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:00:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3911763</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T18:00:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3910130</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Adam . .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;ADR I dont think we have to try too hard to sniff out trolls, if they want to troll, they&amp;#039;ll start trolling. The whole idea of trolling is to get attention so they aren&amp;#039;t going to be too sneaky.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What kind of a legitimate newcomer says &amp;#034;Ok, so far so good.&amp;#034; to a post going above &amp;amp; beyond addressing something they asked? Still it wasn&amp;#039;t a bad idea so I included a reference to the paths.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 06:21:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3910130</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T06:21:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909914</link> <description>ADR I dont think we have to try too hard to sniff out trolls, if they want to troll, they&amp;#039;ll start trolling. The whole idea of trolling is to get attention so they aren&amp;#039;t going to be too sneaky.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 04:28:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909914</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T04:28:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909827</link> <description>Also, I say this because your post above and others I have looked at do not resemble the usual types of first posts I usually see from people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am quite sure, however, you have legitimate reasons for being on here and I wish you success with finding what you are looking for.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 03:50:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909827</guid> <dc:creator>Adam Dietrich Ringle</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T03:50:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909824</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;racecar backwards:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Ok, so far so good.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No what about when someone says, &amp;#034;I entered 4th path, I entered 2nd path&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All these numbered paths are also Acronyms&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would possibly suggest that you take a look at some of the most basic information posted on both the wiki and other threads if you are looking for this kind of information.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not to sound overly antagonistic, but we have had some trouble with people getting on this site and trying to inflict trouble and confusion (aka trolling).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;May you be happy and safe.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 03:44:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909824</guid> <dc:creator>Adam Dietrich Ringle</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T03:44:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909657</link> <description>Ok, so far so good.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No what about when someone says, &amp;#034;I entered 4th path, I entered 2nd path&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All these numbered paths are also Acronyms</description> <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 02:09:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3909657</guid> <dc:creator>racecar backwards</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-16T02:09:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3908856</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;MBSR:&lt;/strong&gt; Mindfulness-based stress reduction</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:46:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3908856</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T21:46:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3908844</link> <description>TM - Transcendental Meditation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Great idea Beoman!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:27:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3908844</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T21:27:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907500</link> <description>Good stuff guys! I had run out of ideas initially but that was a bunch more. Keep &amp;#039;em coming.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:52:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907500</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T14:52:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907473</link> <description>&lt;u&gt;Buddhism&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DO&lt;/strong&gt; : Dependent Origination&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Actualism&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;HAIETMOBA&lt;/strong&gt; : How Am I Experiencing This Moment Of Being Alive ?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:39:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907473</guid> <dc:creator>Shashank Dixit</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T14:39:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Acronym Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907198</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;DhO:&lt;/strong&gt; Dharma Overground, this forum&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;IMS:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharma&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Insight Meditation Society&lt;/a&gt;, vipassana retreat centre in Massachusetts, USA &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;KFD:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;wetpaint&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Kenneth Folk Dharma&lt;/a&gt;, pragmatic dharma forum emphasising Kenneth Folk&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;Three Gear Transmission&amp;#039; approach. Also Kenneth&amp;#039;s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;personal website&lt;/a&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;MCTB:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB"&gt;Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s book&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;MCTB 2:&lt;/strong&gt; Working title for project to update and expand on &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB"&gt;MCTB&lt;/a&gt; with assistance of DhO members. Also called &amp;#039;Remastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;NS:&lt;/strong&gt; Nirodha Samapatti (sp?), &amp;#039;The Cessation of Perception and Feeling&amp;#039; (temporary attainment) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Appendix&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Cessation&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Perception&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Feeling&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20Nirodha&amp;#x25;20Samapatti&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Appendix&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Cessation&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Perception&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Feeling&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20Nirodha&amp;#x25;20Samapatti"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;044&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(Feel free to modify, Beo. I&amp;#039;d put all the acronyms into alphabetical order if it were me)</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:08:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3907198</guid> <dc:creator>Liam O'Sullivan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T11:08:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>The Acronym &amp; Terms Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3906614</link> <description>Here is a disambiguation page for new-comers. Feel free to reply with more or recommend different links for existing ones and I can edit this post to include everything so it&amp;#039;s all in one place. I&amp;#039;ve split the acronym/term list into four categories: people/places/things, techniques talked about in MCTB, other meditation techniques not talked about in MCTB, and actualism. I&amp;#039;ve tried to provide the links most relevant to each category, so the MCTB links all point to MCTB, when possible, the non-MCTB links point to the respective technique&amp;#039;s webpages, when possible, and the Actualism links point to the Actual Freedom Trust website.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Places/people/things&lt;/u&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;BG&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistgeeks&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Buddhist Geeks&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Bhante G&lt;/strong&gt;: Bhante Gunaratana, known around these parts for writing &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;urbandharma&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;udharma4&amp;#x2f;mpe&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;&amp;#034;Mindfulness in Plain English&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Bhante V&lt;/strong&gt;: Bhante Vimalaramsi, of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammasukha&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;About&amp;#x2f;bhante&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Dhamma Sukha&lt;/a&gt; fame. Wrote a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammasukha&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Study&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;book&lt;/a&gt; about his take on &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;118&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Anapanasati Sutta&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DhO&lt;/strong&gt;: the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;home"&gt;Dharma Overground&lt;/a&gt; (this forum)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DI&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;integrateddaniel&amp;#x2e;info&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Daniel Ingram&lt;/a&gt;, author of MCTB&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;HP&lt;/strong&gt;: the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Hamilton Project blog&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;IMS&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharma&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Insight Meditation Society&lt;/a&gt;, vipassana retreat centre in Massachusetts, USA&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;KF&lt;/strong&gt;: Kenneth Folk (see KFD)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;KFD&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;wetpaint&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Kenneth Folk Dharma&lt;/a&gt;, pragmatic dharma forum emphasising Kenneth Folk&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;Three Gear Transmission&amp;#039; approach. Also Kenneth&amp;#039;s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;kennethfolkdharma&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;"&gt;personal website&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;MCTB-related&lt;/u&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;1st Path/2nd Path/3rd Path/4th Path&lt;/strong&gt;: Usually refer to attainments as described in MCTB &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20A&amp;#x25;20Revised&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Path&amp;#x25;20Model&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;6267AF6690879FEEB3E41BD190AFA254&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20A&amp;#x25;20Revised&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Path&amp;#x25;20Model"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;3Cs&lt;/strong&gt;: the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Three&amp;#x25;20Characteristics"&gt;Three Characteristics&lt;/a&gt;, also the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;203&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Three&amp;#x25;20Characteristics&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;203&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Three&amp;#x25;20Characteristics"&gt;insight stage&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;4NTs&lt;/strong&gt;: the Four Noble Truths &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Noble&amp;#x25;20Truths&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;B56DFACE7B6D0ED64B0D2442A74F23BD&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Noble&amp;#x25;20Truths"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Four_Noble_Truths"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;A&amp;amp;P&lt;/strong&gt;: The Arising &amp;amp; Passing Away (insight stage) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;204&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Arising&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Passing&amp;#x25;20Away&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;204&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Arising&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Passing&amp;#x25;20Away"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;1509672"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DN&lt;/strong&gt;: the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;205&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20Dissolution&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20Entrance&amp;#x25;20to&amp;#x25;20the&amp;#x25;20Dark&amp;#x25;20Night"&gt;Dark Night&lt;/a&gt; (the insight stages)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;EQ&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;2011&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20Equanimity&amp;#x2f;pop_up&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;70DC596E038241296A8A821BC6B166E3&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;2011&amp;#x2e;&amp;#x25;20Equanimity"&gt;Equanimity&lt;/a&gt; (the insight stage)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;MCTB&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB"&gt;Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s book&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;MCTB 2&lt;/strong&gt;: Working title for project to update and expand on &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB"&gt;MCTB&lt;/a&gt; with assistance of DhO members. Also called &amp;#039;Remastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Mushroom Factor&lt;/strong&gt;: a term Dan Ingram &amp;amp; a friend quoted to denote the cultural aspect of not openly talking about attainments and real insight, described in MCTB &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20What&amp;#x25;20Went&amp;#x25;20Wrong&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20What&amp;#x25;20Went&amp;#x25;20Wrong"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20More&amp;#x25;20on&amp;#x25;20the&amp;#x25;20Mushroom&amp;#x25;20Factor&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20More&amp;#x25;20on&amp;#x25;20the&amp;#x25;20Mushroom&amp;#x25;20Factor"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;N8P/TN8P&lt;/strong&gt;: The Nobel Eightfold Path: Right (View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Mindfulness, Concentration). Mnemonic: VISA-LEM-C (vee-sah-lem-see). &lt;a href=""&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Noble_Eightfold_Path"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;NS&lt;/strong&gt;: Nirodha Samapatti, &amp;#039;The Cessation of Perception and Feeling&amp;#039; (temporary attainment) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Appendix&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Cessation&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Perception&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Feeling&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20Nirodha&amp;#x25;20Samapatti&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Appendix&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Cessation&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Perception&amp;#x25;20and&amp;#x25;20Feeling&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x25;20Nirodha&amp;#x25;20Samapatti"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;044&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;SE&lt;/strong&gt;: Stream Entry (aka &lt;strong&gt;1st Path&lt;/strong&gt;)&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Was&amp;#x25;20that&amp;#x25;20Emptiness&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20Was&amp;#x25;20that&amp;#x25;20Emptiness"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;Daniel&amp;#x25;20on&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Types&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Stream&amp;#x25;20Enterers&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;Daniel&amp;#x25;20on&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Types&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Stream&amp;#x25;20Enterers"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Theravada&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Path&amp;#x25;20Model&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Theravada&amp;#x25;20Four&amp;#x25;20Path&amp;#x25;20Model"&gt;[3]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Non-MCTB-related&lt;/u&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;6Rs&lt;/strong&gt;: Technique taught at &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammasukha&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Study&amp;#x2f;Articles&amp;#x2f;simple-easy-mind&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;dhammasukha.org&lt;/a&gt;: Recognize, Release, Relax, Re-smile, Return, Repeat&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;DO&lt;/strong&gt;: Dependent Origination (not talked about in MCTB 1) &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Prat&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;ABtyasamutp&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;81da"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;shapeofsuffering&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;[2 (pdf)]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;MBSR&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction"&gt;Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;RAIN&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;sites&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;site&amp;#x2f;psychospiritualtools&amp;#x2f;Home&amp;#x2f;meditation-practices&amp;#x2f;using-rain"&gt;Recognize, Accept, Investigate --&amp;gt; Non-Identification&lt;/a&gt;, a meditation practice introduced by Michele McDonald.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;TM&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;tm&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Transcendental Meditation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Actualism-related&lt;/u&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;AF&lt;/strong&gt;: Actual Freedom &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;richard&amp;#x2f;default&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;introduction&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[3]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;AFT&lt;/strong&gt;: the Actual Freedom Trust, usually used to refer to the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Actual Freedom Trust website&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;EE&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;library&amp;#x2f;topics&amp;#x2f;excellence&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Excellence Experience&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;FAS&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;actualism&amp;#x2f;vineeto&amp;#x2f;actualvineeto&amp;#x2f;listd04&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Fatal Attraction Syndrome&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;HAIETMOBA&lt;/strong&gt; : &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;richard&amp;#x2f;articles&amp;#x2f;thismomentofbeingalive&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;How Am I Experiencing This Moment Of Being Alive&lt;/a&gt; (&amp;#034;Note: asking how one is experiencing this moment of being alive is not the actualism method; consistently enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive is what the actualism method is&amp;#034;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;OFC&lt;/strong&gt;: Out-From-Control (&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;richard&amp;#x2f;abditorium&amp;#x2f;out-from-control&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;richard&amp;#x2f;selectedcorrespondence&amp;#x2f;sc-dynamicvirtualfreedom&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt;), as opposed to In-Control (#1 on &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;library&amp;#x2f;topics&amp;#x2f;virtualfreedom&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;this page&lt;/a&gt;), in reference to Virtual Freedom&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;PCE&lt;/strong&gt;: Pure Consciousness Experience &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;library&amp;#x2f;topics&amp;#x2f;pce&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[1]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;actualism&amp;#x2f;others&amp;#x2f;corr-pce&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[2]&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;sundry&amp;#x2f;frequentquestions&amp;#x2f;FAQ64&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;[3]&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;VF&lt;/strong&gt;: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;actualfreedom&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;library&amp;#x2f;topics&amp;#x2f;virtualfreedom&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;Virtual Freedom&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:55:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3906614</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-15T06:55:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Freedom</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3882633</link> <description>Freedom from the self. What is it that is free from the self? Everything. What is it free to do? Manifest as a beautiful display.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:00:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3882633</guid> <dc:creator>Dannon F</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-09T12:00:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: "The Fetters"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3882605</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tommy M:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Having gotten (what I thought was) stream entry without knowing what it was, or ever having knowingly practiced within the Buddhist framework prior to that point I may have an even more different take on this.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey me too! Nice to meet you. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like how people are interpreting it for themselves. I would like to think that the Buddha didn&amp;#039;t define the meaning and the &amp;#034;correct&amp;#034; interpretations because those answers come from our own knowing. Imagine the dogma if he did. He emphasized first-hand knowledge. This way we have to find out for ourselves. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Attachment to Rites and Rituals&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have never been attached to Rites and Rituals. I always just followed my heart. If I make up an impromptu ritual on a whim it is because my heart tells me to. But it comes from the heart, not rites and rituals.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Personality Belief&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, there still is a personality here, but it isn&amp;#039;t me. It is just a dream character. It might fade away but what will be left?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Skeptical Doubt&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Once you know belief and doubt are no longer relevant. Attachment to rites and rituals is the fetter of belief, this is the fetter of disbelief. Both are obstacles of knowing. Belief and disbelief are thinking that you know, which is a delusion. Some say this, some say that, find out for yourself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Greed&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Greed is thinking that anything in this world will bring happiness. Greed is thinking that you will leave this world with more than you came into it with. Greed is thinking that something should make you happy. The desire to possess. Comes from a belief in the self.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:44:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3882605</guid> <dc:creator>Dannon F</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-01-09T11:44:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: "Mindfulness practice" "jhana practice"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3723681</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;wings&amp;#x2f;part3&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;jhana-3e"&gt;Traditionally&lt;/a&gt;, jhana means Right Concentration, and &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;wings&amp;#x2f;part2&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;part2-b"&gt;mindfulness&lt;/a&gt; is a prerequisite for it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(Again, I highly recommend this book. Especially the second link if you want to understand mindfulness and its role in the path.)</description> <pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:49:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3723681</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-11-24T22:49:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: "Mindfulness practice" "jhana practice"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3721112</link> <description>Hi!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Does that sound credible?&lt;br /&gt;If so, have I therefore made a mistake by making Mahasi-noting the primary aspect of my practice for now (given that my intention is to try to develop access concentration)?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would say yes, to both questions.&lt;br /&gt;Yes, it&amp;#039;s credible, it definitely can be done. &lt;br /&gt;Access concentration can easily be developed via mahasi noting, shamata jhanas can&amp;#039;t (apart when you are in high equanimity, where shamata jhanas tend to arise by their own).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If the goal is to get first access concentration and then jhanas, you should drop mahasi noting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;An approach that will lead there is something like just doing breath counting 1 to 10 and then coming back to 1 and repeating.&lt;br /&gt;The focus point should be the sensations of the air in the nostrils (the anapana spot, as it is sometimes referred to).&lt;br /&gt;Important thing is that while doing it you should not pay attention to the individual sensations, but just being interested in not allowing attention to wander and keep counting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;OK, so here &amp;#034;jhana practice&amp;#034; is probably referring to shamata, and her &amp;#034;mindfulness practice&amp;#034; is probably referring to vipassana?&lt;br /&gt;That said, aren&amp;#039;t there vipassana jhanas as well as shamata jhanasa?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh my.. that&amp;#039;s gonna be long.&lt;br /&gt;Ok, that&amp;#039;s how I like to conceptualize theese differences:&lt;br /&gt;Shamata practices are thoose practices that have as their only goal the development of concentration (might be jhanas, might be just breath counting, a mantra, whatever).&lt;br /&gt;Jhana practices are thoose practices that have as their goal the development of mastery over jhanas; jhanas can be used both for insight and pure concentration purposes.&lt;br /&gt;Mindfullness I have no clue of what it means in that context, but probably it referres to insight, but I really can&amp;#039;t know.&lt;br /&gt;Mindfullness, as I understand it, (and if someone thinks I&amp;#039;m wrong please let me know) is this: when something is happening, you know that it&amp;#039;s happening; and how do you know that you are mindful? If you can name it (i.e. when you are walking you can say &amp;#034;Now I am walking&amp;#034;), then for sure there is mindfullness in relation to the fact that you are walking.&lt;br /&gt;Mindfullness is present in both insight and shamata practices, and it&amp;#039;s useful for both: in mahasi noting, you are obviously developing mindfullness; if you can count the breaths, obviously there is mindfullness of the breath there.&lt;br /&gt;Now, fact is, if you develop mindfullness you will most likely end up developing both concentration and insight. I think that&amp;#039;s the reason why in the first suttas there was not such a strong difference between concentration and insight: the Buddha said something like behave good, diligently strive in developing both mindfullness and jhanas and mindfullness while you are in the jhanas, and eventually you&amp;#039;ll be free.&lt;br /&gt;However, you can decide that you want to develop only concentration and not insight. &lt;br /&gt;How do you know that you are practicing insight? The 3C helps: if you focus on the nostrils and you see every single sensation arising one after the other, you are seeing impermanence, so you are practicing insight, wich will result in the nanas progression and eventually stream entry; if you focus on the nostrils and you are not aware of the impermanence of thoose sensations (i.e. you are not seeing how every sensation change, vibrate, change it&amp;#039;s shape and texture every moment), but your attention is still always on the top of your nose, and the breath seems more like a continuous flow going up and down, then you are developing concentration and not insight. If there is a strong sense of someone watching from outside probably you are practicing insight, since you are somehow seeing how thoose sensations are something different from you; if you feel more like you are going up and down with the breath, if you are like somehow &amp;#034;in it&amp;#034;, absorbed into it&amp;#039;s rhythm, then you are probably developing just concentration.&lt;br /&gt;In order to practice jhanas and not progressing throught nanas that&amp;#039;s the kind of way of percieving that you want to develop, and in order to do that breath counting is a very good tool. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok, hope that was clear... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ps: I&amp;#039;m not totally sure I was totally correct and precise on everything... if someone find me wrong please correct... bye!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pps: ah, another thing: if you are really committed to that, you might consider the idea to bring breath counting also in daily life... it really can help to improve your concentration, and it can definitely be done.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:40:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3721112</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-11-24T10:40:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: "Mindfulness practice" "jhana practice"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3720951</link> <description>Thanks Mario:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mario Nistri:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;Mindfullness practice&amp;#034; is not so well defined most of the time... I prefere to talk about &amp;#034;insight oriented&amp;#034; vs &amp;#034;tranquillity oriented&amp;#034; practices...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OK, so here &amp;#034;jhana practice&amp;#034; is probably referring to shamata, and her &amp;#034;mindfulness practice&amp;#034; is probably referring to vipassana?&lt;br /&gt;That said, aren&amp;#039;t there vipassana jhanas as well as shamata jhanasa?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If you want to reach absorption, the first thing to do is to get enought stability of mind to be able not to get distracted from the main object of meditation (access concentration). [Same goes for insight, but if you practice noting it&amp;#039;s assumed that with time noting will eventually build access concentration by itself]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So my current plan -- following MCTB -- was to work on access concentration first, and then move onto vipassana. I have three reasons for taking that approach:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. Daniel recommends it&lt;br /&gt;2. I have ADD and I figured that working on pure concentration/tranquility first really would be a solid preparation for me, before moving to Vipassana&lt;br /&gt;3. Some of the benefits of shamata sound worth obtaining in and of themselves. So even without the base they provide for shamata, just the fact that they may help me focus in daily life sounds useful&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does that sound credible?&lt;br /&gt;If so, have I therefore made a mistake by making Mahasi-noting the primary aspect of my practice for now (given that my intention is to try to develop access concentration)?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thanks.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:02:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3720951</guid> <dc:creator>Robert McLune</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-11-24T08:02:24Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 