<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>The Middle Paths (2nd and 3rd)</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=89621</link> <description>For topics of practice related to the middle paths or intermittent phase of enlightenment, post here.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:31:07 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:31:07Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5596319</link> <description>In my eyes it seems that MCTB is all about insights when there is no self. But by doing it, it denys the truth that there is self. Thats why MCTB does not penetrate into self nature what is devoid of all marks of existence and its still real and open to all the wonderful experiences and transformations.&lt;br /&gt;Conceptual mind will be gone like fire when it is extinguished and whats left is selfnature or buddha nature and thats You.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Body is used to realize self nature, body is like 10 years lifespan delay copy of your mind. I used the knowledge of left and right channels and middle channel to finally realize my own essence.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2014 17:02:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5596319</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-02T17:02:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5595164</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tom Tom:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I took a look at attention during today&amp;#039;s meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I &lt;strong&gt;wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else&lt;/strong&gt;, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can&amp;#039;t hurt to try.&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;careful your not reifying a container that holds everything i.e. just another form of self&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;trying to understand whats refered to here sometimes as the attention bounce and what is happening, I think has been complicated in the discussions&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On - selecting the focus or attention is just present moment awareness\knowing the present moment or bare attention&lt;br /&gt;Off - when wrapped up in other stuff is reflection, reflective or reflexive knowing, mind taking itself as an object whether as feelings or thoughts giving a past or future projections&lt;br /&gt;The change would be between knowing or reflective/reflexive knowing which is also tied up as the self getting in and out of the way</description> <pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2014 02:18:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5595164</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-01T02:18:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594798</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tom Tom:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I took a look at attention during today&amp;#039;s meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can&amp;#039;t hurt to try.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 19:26:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594798</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T19:26:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594262</link> <description>It might have been over on the old KFD forum...which is now here -&amp;gt; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakenetwork&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;forum&amp;#x2f;kunena-show-kfd"&gt;http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would take a while to find all the relevent posts...good luck...it&amp;#039;s been years.&lt;br /&gt;try the google----&amp;gt; site:http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd termtosearchfor</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 01:17:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594262</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T01:17:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594251</link> <description>If Alan Chapman writes a book with that new enlightenment model posted on Duncan&amp;#039;s blog we&amp;#039;ll have ourselves a real dharma showdown. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just want offtheride-ship. KF-4th sounds fine to me&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can&amp;#039;t find the old threads.. Anyone got a link?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:58:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594251</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T00:58:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594234</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth&amp;#039;s 4th path criteria?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Yes,&lt;br /&gt;If you go back to the early days of the Dho when Kenneth was on and read some of the threads there is some interesting stuff...add the levels from AEN &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakeningtoreality&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2007&amp;#x2f;03&amp;#x2f;thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Thusness/PasserBy&amp;#039;s Seven Stages of Enlightenment&lt;/a&gt; and things get really interesting in mapping systems. &lt;br /&gt;Daniel attained some time pressure synchonization thingy which he has not explained whether this is 4th path or something more...I can&amp;#039;t wait to see what updates Daniel has in MCTB 2.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:43:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594234</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T00:43:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594189</link> <description>I think fourth path is a unique experience for each person as there is no special insight to be gained. For me cycles continued with an impetus to investigate and then there was a moment when I got the joke. It was like one of those lame one line jokes that you miss but after a period of time it finally clicked and the impact from the simplicity and even how corny the joke was made me laugh and laugh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; What Droll pointed out about permission as a condition may have played  into it, which is similar to how making a resolution to get a path can play an important role. After that intent seems to change as everything is how it is - perfect. The end of insight dis ease&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Turning inward to investigate the sense of agency I found new clarity there is no inner place, its creation the very act of looking for it. Look inward to where, there is no location, no depth or width no boundary between inside and out, only the reflexive act. The mind (or awareness) knowing itself as an object of itself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Practicing AF techniques has lead to more insights after this as there are a great set of tools to discover the feeling self, that swirl of energies, passions or the movement we take as will, the reflexive mechanism we experience as life.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 00:07:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594189</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T00:07:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594183</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this &amp;#034;got mine&amp;#034; see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off} &lt;br /&gt;Please help by answering if you would be so kind.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Alright D, you better stick around after you get fourth.  I&amp;#039;ll take it upon myself to pester you if you don&amp;#039;t.  :-)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-T</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 23:52:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594183</guid> <dc:creator>Teague</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T23:52:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594177</link> <description>Hmm, this model looks like a mess to me. I see why Daniel keeps emotional and conventional stuff out of his models.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth&amp;#039;s 4th path criteria?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 23:39:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594177</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T23:39:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594162</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;I think he was implying that it&amp;#039;s a necessary condition.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Probably not necessary, but helpful, yes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Source for this?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is directly quoted from Kenneth&amp;#039;s Folk&amp;#039;s previous website.  End of agency (or &amp;#034;crushing blow&amp;#034; to agency) occurs at stage 8 whereas 4th path occurs at stage 5.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Enlightenment is not binary (as in “you either have it or you don’t), but exists on a continuum from totally clueless on one end of the spectrum to full and complete enlightenment on the other. Every person on Earth can be plotted at some point on this continuum at some particular point in time. The hope is that one moves further and further along the scale throughout his or her life. Below is a 9 stage map of this developmental process. The model is a work in progress; I will add more detail and update it as I learn more, including adding additional levels if necessary. I am publishing it now in the hope that meditators will find it useful in their own practice and in helping others to awaken. There are some obvious flaws in this kind of map, not least of which is that in order to make sense of it, one must have a solid working knowledge of Theravada Buddhist concepts including the Progress of Insight, jhana, and nirodha samapatti. I apologize for these shortcomings and welcome feedback on how to make the map more accessible across traditions without losing the high level of resolution included here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 1 (sometimes called KF1 for convenience and to distinguish from similar stage maps): The 4th Insight Knowledge, Arising and Passing away of Phenomena, aka A&amp;amp;P. Read about the first five Insight Knowledges here. How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this. It usually takes just a few weeks of weekly Skype coaching or several days in intensive retreat. I’ve guided dozens of students to this stage and many of my students already have it by the time they contact me. This is the point at which someone is well and truly bitten by the meditation bug.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 2: Stream Entry. Practitioner has completed all 16 Insight Knowledges. (Mahasi 1st Path) Read about the Insight Knowledges 5-10 here. (Follow the link at the bottom of the page for Insight Knowledges 11-16.) There are inaccuracies in this essay and places where my current understanding no longer matches what I wrote there, but in the interest of getting this all in one place, I’ll save the revisions for later. How common is stream entry? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they nearly always do. I’ve seen dozens of students get this far.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 3: Practioner has developed through all 16 Insight Knowledges for a second time. (Mahasi 2nd Path). How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they almost always do if they stick with the program. Anyone who has attained KF2 has all the tools necessary to attain KF3. It’s just a matter of continuing on with regular, targeted practice.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 4: Practioner has access to the Pure Land jhanas and Nirodha Samapatti. (One interpretation of Mahasi 3rd Path) Here is a fascinating insight map from the Theravada, based on the 31 Realms of Existence. Notice numbers 23-27, which are said to only be available to 3rd Path practitioners and beyond. These are the Pure Land jhanas. The “Pure Land jhanas” terminology is my own invention; I first accessed “PL1” by doing a Pure Land Buddhist practice of invoking the name of Amitabha Buddha, which is said to transport you instantly to the Pure Land. It worked, after a fashion, so I dubbed the experience a &amp;#034;Pure Land jhana.&amp;#034; This was circa 1994, and the name has stuck. How common is this stage? Many of my students get this far, but it is not as common as the first 3 stages because it requires a greater level of concentration.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Stage 5: The tipping point. Practitioner has a profound sense of completion, as though “done is what needs to be done.” (One interpretation of the 4th Path of Enlightenment. And here is my 2010 commentary on interpretation of the 4-Path model.) The longing to be enlightened seems to have melted away. With further ripening at this stage, it will be seen that there is more to be done; the practitioner still experiences many of the old neurotic patterns, but has some distance from them. “It’s still happening, but it doesn’t seem to be happening to me,” is a common report. How common is this stage? As a rough estimate, I’ve guided 20-25 or so folks to this stage over the last 5 years. I occasionally meet someone who has come to this through some other system. At this stage, the practitioner is identified with emotional feelings rather than a conceptual self. So he or she will resist and argue with more advanced practitioners about what comes next...&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 6: Emotional transformation. Marked attenuation of feelings. (See Damasio’s Looking for Spinoza for the distinction between emotions and feelings. Feelings are the subjective component of emotions. Emotions can and do carry on without the corresponding feelings, as emotions and feelings happen in different parts of the brain.) Practitioner may still display full range of emotions as observed by others while reporting only contentment, well-being, acceptance, etc. This new emotional stability sets the stage for...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 7: Proprioceptive selfing is seen clearly. From the platform of the emotionally stable mind, it becomes possible to see that certain sensations, especially around the face, eyes, and forehead, are sporadically signaling “this is I, me, mine.” See Metzinger’s comments about Ronald Melzac’s neuromatrix and “a kind of proprioception that is so subtle, it’s almost unconscious” (paraphrased from memory, but here is the video). When the moments of operation of this proprioceptive selfing are juxtaposed, moment by moment, with non-selfing moments, the selfing is seen as painful and the mind conditions itself to stop doing it. This proprioceptive selfing seems to operates at several layers, however, because it comes back at a subtler level, as do feelings of fear, irritation, and aversion. Here is a Youtube video in which I sketch out the first 7 stages. (At the time, I did not know there were more stages available.)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 8: A deepening of the insights from stages 6 and 7, &lt;strong&gt;plus a crushing blow to the ownership and agency aspects of selfing.&lt;/strong&gt; (See Metzinger, The Ego Tunnel, for more on ownership and agency as components of selfing.) Practitioner feels very “enlightened” at this point, even somewhat alien as compared to “normal” people. Lots of disorientation. At times some sense of “divine retardation,” in which practitioner feels him or herself losing interest in some things that mattered previously, while simultaneously feeling profoundly OK with these changes. Life gets simpler as unnecessary ideas and attachments slough off. Friends can drift apart if some neurotic need no longer needs to be fulfilled. Conventions and concepts soften in favor of “this is happening now.” Disorientation becomes the norm and one adapts to it. Some motivations, e.g., need for social status, need to be right, need to please others, which began to lose steam at KF5, fade further. How common is this stage? I personally know at least seven people, five of whom are my students or former students. As of this writing (April, 2012), I also consider myself to be at this stage.)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Stage 9: Edit, 26JUL2012: Hmmm... Don&amp;#039;t know yet. Staying open to possibilities.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Kenneth Folk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;May 2012&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 23:21:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594162</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T23:21:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594151</link> <description>I would think that giving yourself permission has to happen at every path. Of course, high EQ is the ideal time to give yourself permission. At the very least, if one doesn&amp;#039;t believe they will get a path (unconsciously or consciously) I highly doubt they&amp;#039;ll get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think Kenneth was implying that giving yourself permission is a sufficient condition. I think he was implying that it&amp;#039;s a necessary condition. I&amp;#039;m sure he would agree that one should have their developmental ducks in a row. And, clearly, after 20 years of developmental meditation Kenneth did.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls &amp;#034;4th path.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Source for this?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:56:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594151</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T22:56:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594139</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m going to have to disagree with Kenneth on this one.  Why is 4th path so special that this applies to 4th, but not to any other path?  Would you say that stream-entry is reaching high equanimity and getting conformity, change of lineage, path, and then fruition or would you say stream-entry is when you &amp;#034;give yourself permission&amp;#034; to be a stream-enterer.  I&amp;#039;m going to go with the former.  However, this doesn&amp;#039;t exclude the possibility that &amp;#034;giving yourself permission&amp;#034; might cause the former to happen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Kenneth is coming from a different perspective where he sought enlightenment to the exclusion of everything else for over 20 years.  His model of what 4th path is is different than Daniel&amp;#039;s.  In my thread that inspired this thread I specifically wrote that I was describing what 4th path is according to Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s criteria.  A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls &amp;#034;4th path.&amp;#034; I feel that I more than meet Kenneth&amp;#039;s 4th path criteria, and have for several years now.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:27:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594139</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T22:27:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594129</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been thinking pretty much exactly what&amp;#039;s written in this thread. I may be fooling myself in thinking I&amp;#039;m in anagami territory, though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This part of the Hurricane Ranch talk might help&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.&lt;br /&gt; DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy. &lt;br /&gt;KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have the same questions as you, so, &lt;br /&gt;http://i.imgur.com/RvbgtzE.jpg</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:04:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594129</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T22:04:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594074</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Russell .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5586064&amp;#x23;_19_message_5586064"&gt;The Last Step - Practice Log &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; simply went brutally for the heart of the thing using a very simple assumption: if no sensation is allowed to ever arise and vanish again without clear comprehension of the Three Characteristics of it, including everything that seemed to be left in that maddening little space warp, then eventually the last illusion will fall. This proved to be the case.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So here are two extremes... the &amp;#034;letting go process unfolding&amp;#034; and the &amp;#034;Brute force&amp;#034; method.&lt;br /&gt;I wonder if there is a middle path to these approaches....I am exploring this idea. Is there a precursor to agentlessness that can be seen clearly and vipassanaized/noted? &lt;br /&gt;A while back I had a 5 minute preveiw of some state...possibly 4th. The predominate shift was that everything was just where is was, stresslessly. Was there an agent? I didn&amp;#039;t even look...it didn&amp;#039;t occur to me to even try...I was just enjoying everthing being so absolutely ordinarily.&lt;br /&gt;So things are not &amp;#034;just where they are&amp;#034; anymore....so I am investigating this....what makes things locationally where they are? what spacial relationship do they have to each other and to the &amp;#034;center&amp;#034;....&lt;br /&gt;Can I see it clear enought to &amp;#034;let go&amp;#034; again? We shall see (pun intended)&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:36:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594074</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T20:36:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594055</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;T DC:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana&amp;#039;s everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Thanks T DC for your straight forward approach of just noting sensations...have continued to note things but changed from 6 senses to proprioception spacial relational sensations/thoughts since second path.&lt;br /&gt;The Nanas cycles are doing thier own thing in the background mostly with DN kicking me for a couple minutes to hours where they seem very in my face misery but nothing like in the past.  I sometimes get up to 4 cessations in a sit....sometimes none...they are not blissful afterwards and very much like a little blip and some clarity.&lt;br /&gt;I practice at the gym every day with a ton of noise...been doing that for years...lately Ive noticed that the disturbing noises have a outside and inside quality to them.&lt;br /&gt;I have been decoupling my concentration practice from my loving kindness practice and trying to get much more concentrated....I also have been practising concentration every night to fall asleep and naps...been doing that for years....If I wake up from a nap I am usually vibrating very hard in third jhana.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for the input,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:21:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594055</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T20:21:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594042</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Russell .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, &lt;strong&gt;nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold&lt;/strong&gt; (as actively &amp;#039;letting go&amp;#039; is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;Do Nothing&amp;#039; practice?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I have gotten a lot of this advice. Can you go into detail of what I actually should do? &lt;br /&gt;Should I sit? &lt;br /&gt;If so why? &lt;br /&gt;What should I do while sitting?&lt;br /&gt;How long should the sits be? &lt;br /&gt;How often?&lt;br /&gt;What should I do off the cushion?&lt;br /&gt;If something, why?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am really curious on what others have done/not done and what those results were.&lt;br /&gt;I am quite frustrated in the lack of good advice after second path. I can&amp;#039;t even really get some good old honest &amp;#034;I have no idea what I did&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;I have explained exactly what I did to get third path and the results here - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3529941&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;0418CB358D46B1407434247EC59852C1&amp;#x23;_19_message_5161720"&gt;Looking for help getting to 3rd path &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I am putting out there the things I am doing in an attempt to land 4th. There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this &amp;#034;got mine&amp;#034; see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off} &lt;br /&gt;Please help by answering if you would be so kind.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:00:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594042</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T20:00:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594019</link> <description>For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana&amp;#039;s everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 19:46:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594019</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T19:46:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594014</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Not Tao:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Isn&amp;#039;t non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as &amp;#034;anatta&amp;#034; as panoramic mode?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this a question?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 19:36:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594014</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T19:36:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594003</link> <description>Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively &amp;#039;letting go&amp;#039; is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;Do Nothing&amp;#039; practice?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 19:20:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594003</guid> <dc:creator>Russell .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T19:20:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593953</link> <description>Isn&amp;#039;t non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as &amp;#034;anatta&amp;#034; as panoramic mode?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 17:49:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593953</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T17:49:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>The Last Step - Conversation Thread</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593904</link> <description>I was inspired by Tom Tom&amp;#039;s practise thread. &lt;br /&gt;It seems to be getting hijacked a bit and I also want to jump in and chat about his practise....but I feel that since I am not fourth path that anything I say will just be more hijacking stuff....So here is a solution that lets me yammer on and not feel bad.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are very few 3rd path to 4th path theads on the Dho. I would be very interested in what people are doing to get to 4th.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Tom Tom, what are you doing in what order and for how long...On cushion and off cushion? ( I realized I have been pretty lax with myself across the board compared to earlier paths esp. concentration exercises)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tom Tom:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; Most of my investigation during sits has been going toward investigation of the sensations in and around the neck and the subtle dualities between these and thoughts.  The main investigation has been the impermanence of these sensations, but a few sits have gone towards the unsatisfactory (dukkha) nature of them.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Analysis off cushion has been toward a continuous dissection of agency.  A subtle sense of agency seems to be all that is left, and as I have stated, I experience no sense of time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention. Investigation of neck sensations has been a priority, but this does not seem to exclude the other sensations much. There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve noticed that a lack of attention does not seem to mean I lack the ability to tune things out if I&amp;#039;m not listening.  For example, if I&amp;#039;m reading and people are talking I won&amp;#039;t always know what they&amp;#039;re saying since the focus is on what I&amp;#039;m reading and not what the people are saying.  I&amp;#039;ve been looking at this, and strangely, I tend to hear some jumble of sounds but it is not processed in a way that makes it understandable if the &amp;#034;focus&amp;#034; is on something else.  Whether this constitutes some form of attention or not I&amp;#039;m not sure. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A kick to the left-over sense of agency is my top priority and since sitting I have noticed some significant diminishment in agency when not on the cushion.  I&amp;#039;m still not where I want to be in terms of a 100% lack of agency, but I seem to be getting closer (quantitatively, it&amp;#039;s currently at about 85%).   To what extent some remaining sense of attention may be creating some small sense of agency is also a consideration and is an additional thing I&amp;#039;ll be analyzing in future sits.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Attention thing is interesting, as is Focus, Choosing etc....they all seem to combine to create the illusion of agency. I have been playing with focus of the eyes trying to stay in panoramic mode without a focal point as my off the cushion practice. On the cushion I have been playing with noticing sensations and whether there is an internal quality or external quality to them. I think there is some spacial relational aspect that creates some of the agency...lets say that at 3rd path the sense of self in space goes away but what about all the external &amp;#034;objects&amp;#034; that are still in reference to where this hollowed out circle is? I am trying to vipassanaize this internal/external duality.I notice what my eyes are doing when I move back and forth...they try to change focus which I find strange especially when I move back and forth between the Nada sound and an external sound...I also move from thoughts to external objects....I have not tried to find permanent objects and dissolve them....interesting...&lt;br /&gt;Gotta go meditate....hope you don&amp;#039;t mind me starting this thread.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 16:44:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593904</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T16:44:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sense door tension</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593114</link> <description>@Teague&lt;br /&gt;Wow, so I was trying to think of a technique for thought and I tinkered with the idea of ABCs and counting. Sometimes I wonder if sanghas really have some kind of hivemind. I agree that there are more than 2 layers of thought; I&amp;#039;m often aware of different layers of subconscious processing. Thanks for replying&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@Psi Phi&lt;br /&gt;Nice. I didn&amp;#039;t think to count rapidly, that&amp;#039;s genius. And, the learning to use head muscles is also a great idea. I actually remember myself as a child teaching myself to wiggle my ears. I think I&amp;#039;m gonna try the same with as many head and neck muscles as I can. Thanks!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@Dream&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure that finding the focal point of the sense door is necessary. In directing the attention to different aspects of the sense door while paying close attention a certain sensitivity is built towards the strain involved. I believe that over time one would begin to notice when one&amp;#039;s creating an unnecessary focal point. At least, that&amp;#039;s my current take on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Race ya to 4th, Dream &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 19:39:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593114</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T19:39:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sense door tension</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592776</link> <description>The thing I noticed after first path with vision that it was easy to &amp;#034;drop&amp;#034; the tendency to ALWAYS have a focal point. This inclusive panoramic quality of vision was just letting go of the habit of always choosing....and where is the chooser? This ability to let go of the focal point so effortlessly faded but came back more pronounced after second path.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think the analog for hearing and feeling and thinking would have to start with where is the focal point that seems always prevalent within that sense door and how can you let go of it completely.....stop the chooser choosing and expand to inclusiveness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have been playing with space a lot on the cushion....with sound I take the nada sound/meditative tinnitus and notice the quality of internal sound vs the vent blowing in the sauna as a constant external sound. I move between the sounds&amp;#039; spacial qualities and try to get a good grasp of the arbitrariness of referential locations. Even though the center point is &amp;#034;hollow&amp;#034; if everything is still in relationship to it then everything is still pointing to it referentially. Trying to vipassana this stuff. This is one of the sound exercises.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Glad your having luck with the visual stuff...when it faded I really missed it...I wanted to warn others to maybe work on this so it wouldn&amp;#039;t fade on them.&lt;br /&gt;Panoramic vision is a cool superpower that gets more and more nifty as you go along....I&amp;#039;m really digging it more now than ever...&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 04:53:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592776</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T04:53:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sense door tension</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592765</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve done this experiement to find the tension created in the skull from thinking.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sit down, close your eyes, now count silently in your mind from 1 to 100. BUT,  go as fast as you can, and when you think you are counting fast, count even faster , I mean go super -turbo, then faster.  When you get to 100, your head should be really tense, now gently smile, take a relaxing breath, and notice the tension pass away, it is best  to consciously relax the tense cranial muscles, then you learn control.  Once learned one should be able to flex and release the cranial muscles just like any other muscle.  But, I am not sure how many people can access voluntary control of these cranial/scalp muscles, it is kind of like wiggling the ears...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This helps one to be aware of the &amp;#034;tense&amp;#034; mode, which one finds the mind/body seems to gravitate towards, and also to be aware of the &amp;#034;released&amp;#034; mode.  When in Meditation or daily living, one can, after practice , go into the &amp;#034;release&amp;#034; mode and attain tranquility, and as a by-product, while in the release mode, dukkha has trouble arising.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Word of caution:  There are muscles in the skull/cranium and if/once you activate them, maybe you already have, But the caution is NOT to over tighten or strain down too hard, I gave myself a HUGE headache one time by experimenting, pain sensation, pain sensation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By the way thanks for posting the other sense door tips, I remember the insight of the eye phenomenon, but forgot about it mostly, I always thought of it as &amp;#034;Kung Fu&amp;#034; mode....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 04:19:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592765</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T04:19:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sense door tension</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592733</link> <description>For thinking, I&amp;#039;ve noticed there are two (and probably more) layers of thought.  There is obvious thinking which is just one notch below actually talking, and then there is subtle thinking which isn&amp;#039;t that apparent normally.  You can see the two in action if you count or say the ABCs in your head, and then think about counting or saying the ABCs in your head. The exercise could be to notice the two and the strain involved with paying attention to our thoughts... or something like that.  I&amp;#039;ll let you suss it out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-T</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 02:17:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592733</guid> <dc:creator>Teague</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T02:17:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Sense door tension</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592601</link> <description>I found the technique DreamWalker recommends &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3529941"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; to be very effective&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;One last piece of advice, if you can shift your focus by looking off in the distance with a &amp;#039;thousand yard stare&amp;#039; such that your peripheral vision is being used and you can see your nose and eges of your vision at the same time; your hands take on the quality of doing their own things and it seems like some self drops away/non-dual gets stronger. Do this a lot and get comfortable with this... it will be your new baseline without needing to use any effort to maintain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Shift &amp;#034;states&amp;#034; so that everything is in one space, open and wide, clear, inclusive&lt;br /&gt;2) Notice the difference of the &amp;#034;state&amp;#034; vs before. Notice the quietness of thought and how the selfing processes/identification seem quieter. Notice the obvious no self qualities. Notice your hands doing their own thing- driving, washing dishes and typing were very visible examples.&lt;br /&gt;3) It took effort to create and stay in this &amp;#034;state&amp;#034;. Look at the effort itself... explore this in every way mentioned above. Notice the subtle stress in the effort.&lt;br /&gt;4) Release the effort, drop out of the &amp;#034;state&amp;#034; fast as well as slowly and notice the old basline state with its attributes come back. Notice the differences. Apply the impermanence characteristic to the differences.&lt;br /&gt;5) Repeat throughout the day as much as you can every day.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; After 10 days of practicing it I (seemingly) finished two cycles, both of which seemed to remove subtle tension in the visual field. My sense of sight seems more direct and less stressful. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The noself and suffering characteristics predict that there&amp;#039;s similar tension in every sense door. So,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Here&amp;#039;s the &lt;strong&gt;hearing version&lt;/strong&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Listen to a nearby sound. Listen to a faraway sound. Now, listen to both sounds simultaneously. Notice the subtle strain in your ear and head when you try to direct your listening attention. Now, relax your attention and tune into the fact that you&amp;#039;re already hearing effortlessly, automatically; directing your listening attention only muddles the direct, clear hearing. Tune into the subtle stress involved in maintaining the relaxed attention, apply the 3Cs. Try to direct your listening attention again, applying the 3C&amp;#039;s to the subtle stress involved in the sense of Observing. Repeat the strain-relax several times throughout the day.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s the &lt;strong&gt;feeling version&lt;/strong&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Direct your attention to the tip of your nose. Direct your attention to the bridge of your nose. Now, feel both your bridge of your nose and the tip of your nose simultaneously. Notice the subtle strain in your head and nose when you try to direct your feeling attention. Now, relax your attention and tune into the fact that you&amp;#039;re already feeling your whole nose effortlessly, automatically; directing your feeling attention only muddles the direct, clear feeling. Tune into the subtle stress involved in maintaining the relaxed attention, apply the 3Cs. Try to direct your feeling attention again, applying the 3C&amp;#039;s to the subtle stress involved in the sense of Observing. Repeat the strain-relax several times throughout the day.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I think of a Thinking version I&amp;#039;ll post it up. Hope someone will get some use out of this.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 21:02:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592601</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T21:02:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Middle Path Practice Journals</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5583485</link> <description>Hello compadres,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Could someone link me to some paradigmatic journals of practice in the middle paths? I&amp;#039;d love to see how other people have reported their experience in this area.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:33:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5583485</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Andersen Thorson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-14T14:33:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564910</link> <description>Hi Daniel, here&amp;#039;s my two cents...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Second path is pretty much a repeat of first path. So basic breath awareness or noting is fine, but be prepared for the maps/stages to be harder to figure out. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After stream entry, there is the &amp;#034;review&amp;#034; period where there is a lot of cycling from A&amp;amp;P to fruition  ---- for some people. For me review didn&amp;#039;t have that clear cycling which ends in fruition, but for some people this is pronounced. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At some point, you will feel like a beginner again and will feel like you basically have to start all over again with basic breath awareness and noting. The wierd thing is that you will also be becoming familiar with the jhanas, which can really cover up the classic, telltale signs of the nanas. So many folks basically describe second path as very confusing. Very very very confusing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;About all you can do is keep practicing/noting, while jhanas take you into wierd experiences. People that can access jhanas more clearly can start exploring that domain in a systematic way. For me, it was basically just confusing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you have a major fruition and it kinda feels like you are done with that stuff, or some other kind of feeling of completion, it could be you hit second path. This can happen very quickly for some lucky people, like a couple of months. A year or two is probably typical. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Third path will feel kinda similar to second, but you&amp;#039;ll have less interest and mapping and will even feel disenchanted with the maps. You might feel like you are looking for something else entirely, but don&amp;#039;t know what. Your practice might feel like it is doing itself and you are making progress, but you really don&amp;#039;t need to control it. What happens kinda doesn&amp;#039;t matter.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does any of that line up with your experience? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(My best guess is maybe post-second path... but it all depends on how &amp;#034;significant&amp;#034; that recent fruition was.)</description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 23:40:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564910</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T23:40:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564816</link> <description>[quote=William Golden Finch&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;]        What was your shift like after stream entry? I&amp;#039;ve found a couple practices to be particulalry fruitful following stream entry, they may be useful for you as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bill&lt;br /&gt;        &lt;br /&gt;Do you mean the one I was referring to on the six week IMS retreat? Or stream entry itself?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stream Entry was pretty standard, at least based on what I&amp;#039;ve read. Loss of belief in the seperate self, a huge reduction in struggle / suffering, uptake in concentration and access to the jhanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The more recent shift felt like a bunch of mind noise I didn&amp;#039;t even know was going on just evaporated. My practice and life had more silence and ease than before.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m really feeling developing the concentration piece of my practice now and I&amp;#039;m excited to see where it goes. I spent so much time just noting that I never took the time to develop my concentration skillz. At least it will give &amp;#039;me&amp;#039; something to do... &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:41:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564816</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Andersen Thorson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T16:41:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564803</link> <description>Hi Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;        In my experience there is the effort of showing up, physically bringing onself to the cushion (or whatever) to practice, and the effort of imposing one&amp;#039;s perceived will onto the practice. Intentionality is powerful, but I have often found when I am self-efforting the practice, I get derailed.&lt;br /&gt;        To answer your intial question I have vacillated much with practices since stream entry and post 4th path. I had neglected shamatha for years and for whatever reason am in a very shamatha/mahayana practices phase, practicing for six hours or so a day for several months, while working full time and trying to balance a relationship and graduate school. It&amp;#039;s been interesting. I also went through a phase for two years following a signfigant shift post what I&amp;#039;d previously thought of as 4th path where any sense of trying to direction attention felt very painful and my practice had only to do with recognizing undirected attention. I think there are times when different approaches are called for and this is just part of the changing seasons of meditation.&lt;br /&gt;        What was your shift like after stream entry? I&amp;#039;ve found a couple practices to be particulalry fruitful following stream entry, they may be useful for you as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bill&lt;br /&gt;        </description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:21:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564803</guid> <dc:creator>William Golden Finch</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T16:21:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564799</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It could also be a very good time for some focused shamata practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Knowing where you are on the maps, at this point, is not crucial.  The maps are useful as inspiration, and navigating challenges earlier on in one&amp;#039;s practice before one has the experience of just how weird things can get with intensive insight practice.  But at this point, what does worrying about your locale on the maps do for you?  Is it going to change the way you practice?  I doubt it... and if it did you might want to question yourself as to why that is.  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. Cool! I have actually just started doing concentration in earnest again, working with a kasina (a practice I haven&amp;#039;t done since SE). It&amp;#039;s felt good to be working on a skill that develops directly over time, and it seems to be enhancing my insight practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. I know it isn&amp;#039;t critical, but I was curious if it might give additional context for what there is left to be done and how to move forward. I guess it wouldn&amp;#039;t really change the way I practice...</description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:17:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564799</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Andersen Thorson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T16:17:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564794</link> <description>Exertion still occurs but you&amp;#039;re in the stream, so flow with it.  It sounds like you have the right approach, so do what feels skillful.  If you feel like things need to be ratcheted up, then exert yourself more.  If you feel like it&amp;#039;s time to let things settle and integrate for a while, then do that.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It could also be a very good time for some focused shamata practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Knowing where you are on the maps, at this point, is not crucial.  The maps are useful as inspiration, and navigating challenges earlier on in one&amp;#039;s practice before one has the experience of just how weird things can get with intensive insight practice.  But at this point, what does worrying about your locale on the maps do for you?  Is it going to change the way you practice?  I doubt it... and if it did you might want to question yourself as to why that is.  </description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:10:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564794</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T16:10:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Effort after Stream Entry</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564751</link> <description>Hello folks,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m curious to hear from folks on the topic of practice after stream entry. Specifically, what is the role of effort in moving forward? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Before stream entry effort was the name of the game for me; I noted my ass off in the way Daniel Ingram prescribed in order to pop it. That was nearly three years ago.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since then practice has been a lot about just sitting and being with experience, noticing tension, letting it go, etc. However, now I&amp;#039;m living in a quasi-monastic setting and feeling the desire to push my practice forward. What would people recommend?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also don&amp;#039;t know where I&amp;#039;m at on the maps. Since stream entry I had a pretty significant fruition event during a six week retreat that seemed to shift my experience significantly; but I don&amp;#039;t know how to locate myself on a map in these middle stages. Is it worthwhile to do?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your time.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 13:46:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5564751</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Andersen Thorson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-05T13:46:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Third [Robin Woods] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5530287</link> <description>Thanks for sharing....can&amp;#039;t wait to read it....until then I still need to read &amp;#034;Clarifying the Natural State&amp;#034; by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal</description> <pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2014 00:28:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5530287</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-10T00:28:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Third [Robin Woods] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5530205</link> <description>I will leave off comparing things to KFD, as the personal politics for me is so complex on that front, but I will address the issue of emotional transformation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is not that there hasn&amp;#039;t been emotional transformation, as there has been a ton of emotional transformation, but it just doesn&amp;#039;t quite line up with the standard dogma of the 10-Fetter Model, nor has it totally eliminated any category of emotion, at least for me, though lots of things about the way emotions operate, how long they last, what triggers them, how they are perceived, and the relationship to them (actually the lack thereof, as it takes two things to form a relationship, and there ain&amp;#039;t two things anymore) have all really made a remarkable difference in what might in relative terms be called my emotional life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you notice in MCTB1, it actually says this, but somehow nobody notices it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was actually just writing something related to this in MCTB2 last night (which is actually very nearly done! Yeah!) on Dependent Origination.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is a sneak peak at MCTB2:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;Note: MCTB1 got criticized for not explicitly mentioning Dependent Origination, and it was a totally valid criticism. Thus, based on that useful feedback, here goes…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    Directly related to the Four Noble Truths is a fascinating and relatively complex teaching called Dependent Origination. You can find it in its original form in such places as DN 15, the Maha-nidana Sutta, the Great Discourse on Causality/Origination. There are long books and essays that go way into the depths of the thing, so if you want something at that level, look there, not here. In an ultra-simplified nutshell, it lays out a chain of causality in which each thing is caused by something else until we get to the root cause, and then posits that if that root cause is removed, then the great chain of causality collapses.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    Starting at the top, we have the obvious and undeniable fact that sickness, pain, old age and death are dependent on birth. That is a really important thing to notice. If you were born, you will age, have pain, get sick and die. Makes sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    Then things get a bit odder: Birth is based on Becoming (also translated as Existence). Here we have to suddenly dive into the world of ancient India and Nepal and a working paradigm that envisioned beings being born into countless lives again and again based on their karma. I am going to skip over the complexities of this and move on (such as there being no transmigrating consciousness or soul posited in Buddhism and yet there is the relative teaching of rebirth), as it is actually not terribly important to the main points I wish to make here, as this whole thing actually makes great sense once you get sufficiently enlightened and doesn’t at all depend on having any belief in the dogmas of rebirth. Whew! All you scientific materialists can suddenly relax your sphincters! Yeah!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    Becoming is based on Clinging, in that we cling to existence. This Clinging is based on Craving for experience and for being. This craving is based on Vedena (usually translated as “Feeling”), meaning things being pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Vedena arises dependent on the Contact (between objects and the sense doors), and thus Contact depends on the Six Sense Doors. These Six Sense Doors are themselves dependent on Name and Form (Mind and Matter). Name and Form are themselves dependent on Consciousness. Consciousness is dependent on Volitional Formations (&lt;em&gt;Saṅkhāras&lt;/em&gt; in Pali, as word that is often used to mean multiple different things, just to make it more confusing. The Pali word is included so that you can look all this up yourself). And, lastly but not leastly (book editor, please don’t take that one out!), Volitional Formations are based on Ignorance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    Ok, bear with me here. Each of those terms is complicated, and their very specialized meanings and implications are complicated. The translation makes it worse. Having a totally different working paradigm set from ancient India and Nepal doesn’t help at all. However, a few salient points can be made from all of this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    First, the elimination of ignorance means elimination of lack of direct knowledge of the Three Characteristics, meaning a highly-developed degree of awakening to the basic truth of things. In this way of perceiving things, reality is no longer broken up at a core perceptual level into Subject and Object, into Perceiver and Perceived, into Doer and Doee, into This and That. Nor is anything taken to be stable and continuous in time at a perceptual level. Thus, nothing makes or forms or fabricates the illusory sense of a self, of a volitional self, of a doer, of a this, of a separate, permanent, split off, centrally-perceiving Consciousness, Subject or Watcher. Further, it no longer splits reality up artificially into Name and Form or Mentality and Materiality, as the field itself is just directly and clearly the field of experience, of manifestation itself, undifferentiated, free of artificial divisions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    This then has profound implications for the sense of the Six Sense Doors, as now there is, for lack of a better way to put it, only one wide-open, volumetric sense door and it is sensing itself. Thus, there is really no Contact, as there is no sense of anything split off that would be contacting something, there are instead just the qualities and textures of transient space. As there are just the qualities and textures of transient space, it can no longer be said that the qualities and textures that make up Vedena belong to anyone, nor is there some sense in that undifferentiated field of a split-off this side that could try to move closer to pleasant sensations, move farther away from unpleasant sensations, and tune out to boring sensations, this being the basic implication of Craving. Thus, there is also no solidification of anything, as the whole transient field directly knows its own utter transience, and so the sort of Clinging referred to here is rendered perceptually impossible. Without any possibility of habitual solidification, the special type of Becoming and Existence referred to here can’t happen, as it is directly known that nothing transmigrates, nothing remains, nothing makes up some stable core of perpetuating consciousness or self.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    That is all so far so good, as it goes. In fact, if you do insight practices well enough, you too will come to see that all of that abstract-sounding theory suddenly describes reality to a tee!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Cochin"&gt;    However, finally, in the last two links, we have a problem, that being the fine print regarding the end of suffering promised by the Buddha. As clearly demonstrated by the Suttas, and as should be really, really obvious, a body was born, and it will get sick, feel pain and die. Thus, while the body lives, there will be pain, aging, sickness and finally death. In short, it is only at the death of a highly enlightened being that the whole thing finally ends. Those who try to spin it some other way are clearly selling something. I will refrain from some further discussion of the endless debates that go on between the Mahayana and the Theravada on this point, as it gets really old really quickly, but instead will move on to the method to make all this good stuff happen and to eliminate fundamental ignorance and other other forms of suffering can be eliminated while a body still lives.&amp;#034;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2014 17:22:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5530205</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-09T17:22:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Third [Robin Woods] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5529063</link> <description>Kenneth F. had post-cocaine depression even at his 3rd path  so &amp;#039;third&amp;#039; is actually good-for-nothing...&lt;br /&gt;maybe you are already &amp;#039;fourth&amp;#039;? you know, if you had massive shift and you are happy&amp;#039;n&amp;#039;stuff then maybe you already did what needed to be done? &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hope this cleared your confusion a bit =)</description> <pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2014 17:51:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5529063</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-08T17:51:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Third [Robin Woods] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5529005</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;Reply to DW (not sure how this new system works....)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;aha - I thought the proprioceptive thing came quite a lot later than 3rd path? i.e at Kenneth&amp;#039;s (retracted?) stage 7? Is that the &amp;#039;centre-point&amp;#039; then?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I realise I was basing &amp;#039;Third&amp;#039; above on the Hurricane Ranch transcript as the MASSIVE shift in baseline mental quietning/non duality over what used to be normal in daily life. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s started to become apparent to me that what Daniel calls fourth path is way &amp;#039;beyond&amp;#039; what the KFDers mean. It&amp;#039;s like at the end of Kenneth&amp;#039;s 8 stages (but without the emotional transformation?). Is that right? (From the HR transcript it seems like they&amp;#039;re all on the same page about the stages). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;God this stuff is confusing; but it&amp;#039;s nice being happy for the first time since I was about 12! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2014 15:49:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5529005</guid> <dc:creator>Robin Woods</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-08T15:49:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Third [Robin Woods] [MIGRATE]</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527833</link> <description>Third [Robin Woods] &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2013-10-30 22:59:05 - Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Relatively speaking, relatively speaking, this is the peace which passeth all understanding.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My 15 year struggle with chronic treatment resistant suicidal depression &lt;em&gt;seems&lt;/em&gt; to have just turned a corner!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea anymore what&amp;#039;s inside &amp;#039;me&amp;#039; and what&amp;#039;s outside &amp;#039;me&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I couldn&amp;#039;t even begin to thank you guys. and Daniel. Daniel. I know you were standing on that Sayadaw&amp;#039;s shoulders. But Daniel.... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is Katy on the path?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0BWlvnBmIE&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[for the sake of balance, first-path review nearly saw me headed for a padded cell]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;XX&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2013-10-31 17:49:16 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;My 15 year struggle with chronic treatment resistant suicidal depression seems to have just turned a corner!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea anymore what&amp;#039;s inside &amp;#039;me&amp;#039; and what&amp;#039;s outside &amp;#039;me&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Congratulations! I&amp;#039;m happy for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But what has changed that you are able to make this statement? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just curious. I&amp;#039;ve been there and done that also. So, I&amp;#039;m interested to learn about your perceptions of this. That&amp;#039;s all. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are you able to articulate about the process you&amp;#039;ve been through that has allowed you to express this? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I ask this because if you are not aware of that process, then you are just as much in the dark as you were before, with the future possibility of returning to that dark place again if you aren&amp;#039;t careful. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Someone who has broken the chain of rebirths should be able to express &lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; they know that, wouldn&amp;#039;t you think (even though it may not make much sense to those who have not accomplished such, to those who have it will make sense).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2013-10-31 19:44:17 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh Christ- I&amp;#039;ve really got myself into some hot water now with my stupid claims to &amp;#039;attainments&amp;#039;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How do I know? Because &amp;#039;I&amp;#039;m&amp;#039; already dead? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I close my eyes now and there&amp;#039;s silence, or birdsong, and I become the silence or birdsong, when I die - to the extent to which I&amp;#039;ve reidentified with the silence or birdsong - &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; don&amp;#039;t die? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I&amp;#039;m vaguely on the right tracks. I still have enough of an ego - even under a pseudonym- not to want to appear too foolish on the internets.  ;) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Take it easy on me. I was just a desperate person who felt he had no other options. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Xx&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2013-10-31 21:46:31 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or to try and put it another way, it kinda just feels like being an animal without a concept of self getting in the way nearly so much?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pawe? K - 2013-10-31 22:38:38 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;imho instead of trying to get rid of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; dwelling in some nonsense it would be better to just find what is wrong with it and start healing it right away&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;having self is not a problem and it never was, it is quite opposite, not having self is biggest issue&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2013-11-01 07:12:52 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Oh Christ- I&amp;#039;ve really got myself into some hot water now with my stupid claims to &amp;#039;attainments&amp;#039;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How do I know? Because &amp;#039;I&amp;#039;m&amp;#039; already dead? ...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Take it easy on me. I was just a desperate person who felt he had no other options.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Relax. You&amp;#039;re not in hot water &amp;#034;with claims to attainments.&amp;#034;  &lt;em&gt;Only&lt;/em&gt; you know what you&amp;#039;ve achieved, no matter what anyone else thinks. (Besides, my question was not meant as anything other than a simple inquiry about your perception of what it is that you have, in your mind, achieved. I&amp;#039;m not here to judge. Only to help you clarify your perception and view.) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;When I close my eyes now and there&amp;#039;s silence, or birdsong, and I become the silence or birdsong, when I die - to the extent to which I&amp;#039;ve re-identified with the silence or birdsong - &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; don&amp;#039;t die?&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I&amp;#039;m vaguely on the right tracks. I still have enough of an ego - even under a pseudonym- not to want to appear too foolish on the internets.  ;) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Or to try and put it another way, it kinda just feels like being an animal without a concept of self getting in the way nearly so much? &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Okay. These two examples are a good start. And you &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; &amp;#034;vaguely on the right track.&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, in order to be clear about what you are aiming to achieve, it would be helpful if you were able to SEE the process involved which allows you to make the statement. Being able to see this process is also a part of what is meant by the term &amp;#034;self realization.&amp;#034; To realize the process by which you create &amp;#034;a self&amp;#034; which you take (or perceive) to belong to an &amp;#034;I.&amp;#034;  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I take it from your descriptions that you have not yet &amp;#034;seen the process&amp;#034; that your mind undergoes (such that you are able to resist it) which would have you identifying it (yourself) with a self that is at root the cause of &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I&amp;#039;m saying is, what you have described as having achieved is fine in its own right. It is a very significant achievement. But it doesn&amp;#039;t indicate evidence of gnosis or knowingness about the potential source of a person&amp;#039;s struggle to alleviate &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;.  Once you attain that gnosis (or inner understanding), you will have severed the ties between this world and personal ignorance about/of this world. It is that ignorance that I am endeavoring to help you understand and to see. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now that you are able to achieve &amp;#034;silence&amp;#034; when you meditate (the mind is not constantly self-identifying itself over against other phenomena), you would be well served to take up a study and practice of &lt;em&gt;satipatthana&lt;/em&gt; in order to solidify this most recent realization that you have accomplished. Doing so will only assist you in deepening your realization to the point of making it an established viewpoint, thereby crushing &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt; once and for all. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In practicing &lt;em&gt;satipatthana&lt;/em&gt;, you will confront the body or form (&lt;em&gt;rupa&lt;/em&gt;), feeling (&lt;em&gt;vedana&lt;/em&gt;), mind states (&lt;em&gt;cittanupassana&lt;/em&gt;), and mind objects or mind phenomena (&lt;em&gt;dhammas&lt;/em&gt;). &lt;em&gt;Nupassana&lt;/em&gt; refers to &amp;#034;contemplation of.&amp;#034; Therefore, &lt;em&gt;cittanupassana&lt;/em&gt; is contemplation of states of mind such as lust (&lt;em&gt;raga&lt;/em&gt;), anger (&lt;em&gt;dosa&lt;/em&gt;), and delusion (&lt;em&gt;moha&lt;/em&gt;). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ven. Analayo describes this in his book [url=]Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Self Realization, in this way:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Analayo:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; It is noteworthy that contemplation of the mind does not involve active measures to oppose unwholesome states of mind (such as lust or anger). &lt;strong&gt;Rather, the task of mindfulness is to remain receptively aware by clearly recognizing the state of mind that underlies a particular train of thoughts or reactions.&lt;/strong&gt; Such uninvolved receptivity is required because of one&amp;#039;s instinctive tendency to ignore whatever contradicts or threatens one&amp;#039;s sense of importance and personal integrity. &lt;strong&gt;The habit of employing self-deception to maintain one&amp;#039;s self esteem has often become so ingrained that the first step to developing accurate self-awareness is honest acknowledgement of the existence of hidden emotions, motives, and tendencies in the mind, without immediately suppressing them.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0303"&gt;Maintaining non-reactive awareness in this way counters the impulse towards either reaction or suppression contained in unwholesome states of mind, &lt;strong&gt;and thereby deactivates their emotional and attentional pull&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/span&gt;[7]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Footnote:&lt;br /&gt;[7] Newman 1996: pp. 35 and 46. Cf. also A V 39, which explains that while unwholesome conduct by way of body or speech is to be overcome by adopting more appropriate ways of conduct, the proper approach for overcoming mental defilements is repeated wise observation. A clinical case supporting the ingenuity of this approach is documented by Deatherage 1975: p. 140, where a twenty-three-year-old male, hospitalized for extreme periodic aggressiveness and alcohol abuse, was cured within eight weeks simply by being taught to recognize and mentally name the emotions he experienced, without even knowing that what he was doing was related to &amp;#034;meditation.&amp;#034; ...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Take a look at his book and see what you think. It should help you begin to put many things together in your mind about what it is that you are doing and practicing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2013-11-01 12:45:56 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Ian. I&amp;#039;m looking forward to studying what you wrote this weekend with care. I&amp;#039;m woefully ignorant of Buddhism. I just found that the noting practice temporarily stopped me suffering. So I persisted with it. Hour after hour after hour. Probably didn&amp;#039;t even understand the implications of what I was doing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just out of interest, what do you think happens when our bodies die? The only thought which causes me trouble at the moment is the very paranoid one(!!!) that this mindfulness is tampering with with Nature/God in some fundamental way and that it will result in some kind of &amp;#039;punishment&amp;#039; after death. That Vipassana is a kind of Promethean arrogance and not to accept the &amp;#039;normal&amp;#039; beer and titties pleasures of this world is to overreach oneself - which might lead to &amp;#039;Hell&amp;#039;?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I did warn you I was crazy!   ;-)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2013-11-01 17:56:39 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thanks Ian. I&amp;#039;m looking forward to studying what you wrote this weekend with care. &lt;strong&gt;I&amp;#039;m woefully ignorant of Buddhism.&lt;/strong&gt; I just found that the noting practice temporarily stopped me suffering. So I persisted with it. Hour after hour after hour. &lt;strong&gt;Probably didn&amp;#039;t even understand the implications of what I was doing.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;I&amp;#039;m woefully ignorant of Buddhism [i.e. the Dhamma].&amp;#034; Oh my. That&amp;#039;s what I was afraid of. The good news is: this is a fixable deficiency. It just takes time and a dedication to practice and to learning everything you can about how your mind works and processes information. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;Probably didn&amp;#039;t even understand the implications of what I was doing.&amp;#034;  Yes, you&amp;#039;re not alone in this. Because of the questionable way in which much of this material has been taught in the past extending to the present, practitioners are not fully aware of what it is that they should be seeking to learn. There is no shortcut to learning about the Dhamma except to take it one step at a time. And after a period of time practicing and studying this, the concepts begin to fall into place within the mind and a realization occurs which is nothing short of profound! When this realization occurs, you  WILL know it! And what is more, you will know that you are free of the causes of &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt; (including mental dis-&lt;em&gt;eases&lt;/em&gt;  such as depression) forever. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By the way, here is a link to Analayo&amp;#039;s book in PDF format (1.2 Mb) that you can download and read: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhismuskunde&amp;#x2e;uni-hamburg&amp;#x2e;de&amp;#x2f;fileadmin&amp;#x2f;pdf&amp;#x2f;analayo&amp;#x2f;DirectPath&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;Satipattana, The Direct Path to Realization&lt;/a&gt;.  There&amp;#039;s a lot in this that presumes a reader&amp;#039;s familiarity with the Dhamma, so take it slow and easy and look up any concept that you are unfamiliar with in order to become clear about its importance to your understanding. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just out of interest, what do you think happens when our bodies die? &lt;strong&gt;The only thought which causes me trouble at the moment is the very paranoid one(!!!)&lt;/strong&gt; that this mindfulness is tampering with with Nature/God in some fundamental way &lt;strong&gt;and that it will result in some kind of &amp;#039;punishment&amp;#039; after death&lt;/strong&gt;. That Vipassana is a kind of Promethean arrogance and not to accept the &amp;#039;normal&amp;#039; beer and titties pleasures of this world is to overreach oneself - which might lead to &amp;#039;Hell&amp;#039;?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I did warn you I was crazy!   ;-)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;Just out of interest, what do you think happens when our bodies die?&amp;#034; If you had had an opportunity to read the discourses (&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;072&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;MN 72&lt;/a&gt;, for instance), you would know how Gotama answered such questions when he was asked. Many of these kinds of questions are answered in the discourses if people will just bother to read them. To speculate about that which one is uncertain of is to become involved in a thicket of views. That thicket of views can take one down many pathways, each one of which, out of fear, may lead to a falsehood and thereby be deceptive. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When the body dies, the body dies. Awareness remains. What happens when you fall asleep at night each night? Is not your awareness of the body dropped? I am reminded by a quotation from Master Po in the television series &amp;#034;Kung Fu,&amp;#034; who said: &amp;#034;Is your mind not free to seek its own course, to soar even to the heavens though you turn and spin within a prison [of the body].&amp;#034;  Stop and think about that the next time you are troubled by a vexing thought. What is it that hinders one from seeking satisfaction (the release of &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;)? Answer: None other than oneself! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;I did warn you I was crazy!&amp;#034;  Not crazy, just deluded. There&amp;#039;s a difference. Delusion is easily cured by exposure to and realization of that which is true. Therefore, it is necessary to know that delusion &lt;em&gt;can&lt;/em&gt; be (and ought to be) let go of. This is what the Dhamma teaches. Freedom from greed, anger and delusion. Is this not something that everyone seeks to achieve? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;...that this mindfulness is tampering with with Nature/God in some fundamental way and that it will result in some kind of &amp;#039;punishment&amp;#039; after death.&amp;#034;  Those of us who grew up in the West and were raised with the fire and brimstone version of Christianity forced down our throats by do-gooder, well-intentioned people in our lives have been suffering under this psychological ball and chain most of our lives.  Yet, when one stops to take a step back and examine this paradigm, one finds that it is based upon a premise that, if it were true, would be contradictory of the whole of the teaching of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Consider the wisdom of Master Po once again who said: &amp;#034;When the tiger and the man are two, he [the man] may die. Yet when the tiger and the man are one there is no fear, there is no danger. For what creature, one with all nature, will attack itself?&amp;#034; He prefaced this with the following: &amp;#034;When the heart knows no danger, no danger exists. When the soul becomes the warrior, all fear melts. That prevails which refuses to know the power of the other. Where fear is, does not danger also live. Where fear is not, does not danger also die.&amp;#034;  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What Master Po is pointing at are phantoms created within the mind. Phantoms that have no other existence than that they were created in the mind of the observer.  When you know the truth, phantoms cannot invade your thought to distract you from what is true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One last thought from Master Po to leave you with in regard to this view you have been incubating about mindfulness: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Seek always peace. Wear no path for the footsteps of others, unless the soul is endangered. We are all linked by our souls. To endanger one endangers all.&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;His use of the word &amp;#034;soul&amp;#034; is unfortunate (as far as the Dhamma understands this in relation to a permanent &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;soul&amp;#034; of which none can be found). Perhaps a better word might have been &amp;#034;spirit&amp;#034; (which if you bother to look it up in a dictionary, relates to the breath; and how synchronistic is that, as in &amp;#034;mindfulness of the breath&amp;#034; or &lt;em&gt;anapanasati&lt;/em&gt;).  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;spirit - [L. &lt;em&gt;spiritus&lt;/em&gt;, breath, courage, vigor, the soul, life, in LL(Ec), spirit &amp;lt; &lt;em&gt;spirare&lt;/em&gt; to blow, breath ...] 1 a) the life principle, esp. in human beings, originally regarded as inherent in the breath or as infused by a deity. b) soul (sense 1).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pawe? K - 2013-11-01 21:35:19 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;When the body dies, the body dies. Awareness remains.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;awareness is function of brain which is body so death of body automatically means death of awareness along with your petty meditation attainments. You don&amp;#039;t have to imagine void that will be after death because you will never ever experience it, not even for a moment because without experience there is no experience&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;because death will never be experienced it is such a non-issue...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-21 10:50:27 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Losing Control?:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Alright guys, I just wondered if you might help me out briefly again....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s been apparent to me for a while that certain processes such as coughing and sneezing are not-self because &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; don&amp;#039;t consciously initiate them. In the same way &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; don&amp;#039;t grow my hair or beat my heart.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, it&amp;#039;s starting to become apparent in daily life that there are all kinds of habitual processes that I do - such as rubbing my face, itching my back, smoking, pulling up my trousers, turning over in bed etc - which seem to just happen by themselves. I don&amp;#039;t choose to do them - or not - I just find myself in the middle of them happening.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is a sign of &amp;#039;progress&amp;#039; right? This is what&amp;#039;s meant by a &amp;#039;natural unfolding&amp;#039;? What should I look for losing control of next? Is there any way to particularly work with this in daily life beyond just trying to keep up the mindfulness and noticing it happening? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I definitely didn&amp;#039;t realize I&amp;#039;d end up losing my sense of free will when I signed up to my first MBSR course!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;. Jake . - 2014-04-21 13:07:42 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Losing your sense of free will or your sense of a &amp;#039;you&amp;#039; that owns intentions? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Phenomena influence each other in a web of interdependance, right? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Intentions are phenomena that have an awareness or understanding of this mutual influence built in, far as I can tell. They are still impermanent, empty of self, not owned by a self, and clinging to/resisting them as if they were permanent or i, me or mine sure is dukkha. But no need to intellectualize about free will vs. determinism, which again far as i can tell is more speculative and metaphysical than experiential. I am not sure that has anything to do with meditative insight so much as our current mainstream culture in the West. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, sure, everything can be seen in that light of happening on its own if there is clear seeing. If you investigate the causes and conditions that lead to more stable, deep, spontaneous and bright clear seeing then you will likely experience more moments in which the spontaneity and selflessness of phenomena is evident. That&amp;#039;s a natural part of the process for sure. Just wanted to point out that we don&amp;#039;t have to pin it down intellectually as free will vs. determinism. I notice that sometimes tends to lead to doubts and/or overcertainty; also, confusing dissociation and depersonalization with insight into emptiness (they are two very different things in my opinion.....). Just my two cents however.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-22 09:50:20 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Jake. Yes - I think I understand what you&amp;#039;re saying. I guess I was a bit worried that it might be depersonalization rather than insight but it feels natural and surely represents a higher level of self-awareness into things I wasn&amp;#039;t even conscious were happening previously....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;. Jake . - 2014-04-23 16:58:26 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cool; then I would say trust your experience and the process. The deeper we let go into emptiness is the easier it should be to feel spontaneous joy and to engage in wholesome and beneficial actions. I know this is kind of a mahayana cliche and yet, it is really IME helpful for differentiating between authentic insight on the one hand and depersonalization or even a one sided, intellectual insight on the other. True insight should be a whole-being affair involving mind, body, heart, relationships.... Or at least there&amp;#039;s another of my two cents for what it&amp;#039;s worth ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-24 11:45:24 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;IAN!! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure if you&amp;#039;ll see this but i think I just had &lt;u&gt;the insight&lt;/u&gt; this morning whilst meditating into what you were trying to get into my thick head here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Any movement&lt;/u&gt; by the mind into &amp;#039;selfing&amp;#039; (and away from peace/silence/nirvana) IS suffering/dukkha. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t matter whether it&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;positive&amp;#039; fantasy or &amp;#039;negative&amp;#039; self-recrimination. The very process of mind created &amp;#039;selfing&amp;#039; is inherently painful when compared to stillness/silence/whatever you want to call it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s why Daniel keeps banging on about the 3 characteristics and their interrelation!? The impermanent selfing processes of the mind ARE Dukkha?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s why it&amp;#039;s called &amp;#039;insight&amp;#039; meditation? The interrelation of the 3C&amp;#039;s literally comes as a flash of insight?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wow - I&amp;#039;m dead.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Walking into work and my sense of self in relation to others was held in its proper proportion for the first time. There&amp;#039;s no-one here to defend. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Selfing is just a (painful) process which comes and goes right? It&amp;#039;s not a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2014-04-24 18:05:09 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;IAN!! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure if you&amp;#039;ll see this but i think I just had &lt;u&gt;the insight&lt;/u&gt; this morning whilst meditating into what you were trying to get into my thick head here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Any movement&lt;/u&gt; by the mind into &amp;#039;selfing&amp;#039; (and away from peace/silence/nirvana) IS suffering/dukkha. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t matter whether it&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;positive&amp;#039; fantasy or &amp;#039;negative&amp;#039; self-recrimination. The very &lt;strong&gt;process&lt;/strong&gt; of mind created &amp;#039;selfing&amp;#039; is inherently painful when compared to stillness/silence/whatever you want to call it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #ff0606"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Selfing is just a (painful) &lt;strong&gt;process&lt;/strong&gt; which comes and goes right? It&amp;#039;s not a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039;.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin, you&amp;#039;ve got it! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian: &amp;#034;Therefore, it is necessary to know that delusion can be (and ought to be) let go of. This is what the Dhamma teaches. Freedom from greed, anger and delusion.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Freedom from greed, anger, and delusion is seeing this &lt;strong&gt;process&lt;/strong&gt; at work within the mind and letting go of it! That is the basis for awakening that Gotama was speaking about. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a section in Richard Gombrich&amp;#039;s book &lt;em&gt;What The Buddha Thought&lt;/em&gt; that expresses this idea of the mental processing that goes on in our thinking. It occurs in Chapter 8 at the heading &amp;#034;The Five Khandha Are Processes.&amp;#034; You might want to pick up this book and slowly read through it as it may have the effect of setting off other realizations that are lying dormant with your awareness. This book can be found as a free PDF on the Internet; you&amp;#039;ll have to research it though as I don&amp;#039;t have a link to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was first made aware of this insight in a previous book of his &lt;em&gt;How Buddhism Began, The Conditioned Genesis of the Early Teachings&lt;/em&gt;, where it was mentioned in a single innocuous and innocent sentence: &amp;#034;The Buddha&amp;#039;s interest in &lt;strong&gt;how&lt;/strong&gt; not &lt;strong&gt;what&lt;/strong&gt;, his emphasis on processes rather than objects, could be said to be summarized in his teaching of the &lt;em&gt;paticca-samuppada&lt;/em&gt;, conditioned origination.&amp;#034; From that simple sentence, I came to the realization! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A few excerpts from that section in the &lt;em&gt;What The Buddha Though&lt;/em&gt;t book: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;I have mentioned above that the five &lt;em&gt;khandha&lt;/em&gt; are the five sets of processes which fuel our continued existence in samsara because they involve grasping, appetite, thirst, desire, whatever you like to call it. I have also shown khandha to be a short form of &lt;em&gt;aggi-kkhandha&lt;/em&gt;, a common Pali compound word meaning &amp;#039;mass of flame.&amp;#039; So there are not just five heaps of fuel but five fires burning fuel. Like all fires, they are in a sense what they are made of; and this takes us back to the Vedic thought that fire is both object and subject. &lt;strong&gt;Moreover, they are not &lt;em&gt;things&lt;/em&gt; but &lt;em&gt;processes&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/strong&gt;...&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And the real kicker: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Most important of all, he deduced something that I think was never explicit either in Vedic thought or in its Hindu descendants: &lt;strong&gt;that what we can experience is only process&lt;/strong&gt;. &lt;span style="color: #fd0606"&gt;This may be his most important philosophic idea.&lt;/span&gt; [I agree!] Our consciousness and its objects are like fire in that they are not things but processes, unceasing change. Something beyond this is perhaps conceivable, but the very nature of our apparatus for having experiences determines that if it does exist it must lie completely outside our experience. . . .&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;Egotism and belief in an unchanging ego were the fires&amp;#039; essential fuel, so once they were gotten rid of, those fires would go out.&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In peace,&lt;br /&gt;Ian&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi - 2014-04-25 00:44:48 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, that&amp;#039;s cool, it is all processes, impersonal processes, if I might add.  Sorry to intrude, but it is all a process, fed by fuel, take away the fuel, the fire goes out, but one needs patience to watch a fire go out, and many other factors to not throw more fuel on the fire.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Going to contemplate on this....now&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-25 11:01:23 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Ian! I think I see it now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;The habit of employing self-deception to maintain one&amp;#039;s self esteem has often become so ingrained that the first step to developing accurate self-awareness is honest acknowledgement of the existence of hidden emotions, motives, and tendencies in the mind, without immediately suppressing them.&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wow - that sentence, in particular, encapsulates my entire psychology. Mindfulness laid it all bare for me - in real time. Shadow. Projection. The whole thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;haha - my parent&amp;#039;s divorce and aftermath (my Big Issue) was never &amp;#039;my&amp;#039; fault because I was never a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039; in the first place!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Quite a lot of disorientation today. All these patterns of accumulated muscular tension in my body that I&amp;#039;ve been holding for all these years - and no-one to hold them for!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems obvious to me that this insight is what Shinzen calls stream-entry so I retract my claims to &amp;#039;Third&amp;#039; (whatever that meant) above.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So whenever selfing/suffering arises you just drop it in favor of Peace? It doesn&amp;#039;t even matter whether you note it as &amp;#039;talk&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;noise&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;suffering&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;why&amp;#039; or whatever?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now to begin the &amp;#039;mental gardening&amp;#039; that Richard Zen and Thich Nhat Hanh talk about!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks so much Ian for always being there when I needed someone!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dream Walker - 2014-04-25 15:49:52 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It seems obvious to me that this insight is what Shinzen calls stream-entry so I retract my claims to &amp;#039;Third&amp;#039; (whatever that meant) above.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Could you possibly share with us what you mean by third path? Could you then explain why you no longer categorize yourself as such? Could you share the new Shinzen description and how it fits you?&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2014-04-25 17:23:27 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;So whenever selfing/suffering arises you just drop it in favor of Peace? It doesn&amp;#039;t even matter whether you note it as &amp;#039;talk&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;noise&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;suffering&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;why&amp;#039; or whatever?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No! You&amp;#039;re not fully understanding this. It is not about &lt;strong&gt;always seeking&lt;/strong&gt; peace. Peace is the logical outcome &lt;strong&gt;of wisdom&lt;/strong&gt;! It&amp;#039;s about &amp;#034;seeing things as they are&amp;#034; &lt;strong&gt;with wisdom!&lt;/strong&gt; With true knowingness and knowledge about whatever circumstance one is viewing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin, Robin, Robin. You are regressing rather than progressing! You need to open up your mind and see the big, overall picture! Your current focus is too narrow. And that is, to a great extent, a result of the instruction you&amp;#039;ve been following, which has you focusing on a narrow window of reality. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Forget about what you&amp;#039;ve been taught about &amp;#034;noting&amp;#034; as it is described here and elsewhere on the Internet. The purpose of that kind of noting was to put you into &amp;#034;present time&amp;#034; (i.e. to promote mindfulness or &lt;em&gt;sati&lt;/em&gt;) so that you can see directly what is happening in the moment. &lt;strong&gt;Wisdom is developed when you are able to skillfully discern the truth and act accordingly.&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example (and this is a very simplistic example which you need to use in order to see more complex problems that can arise): Let&amp;#039;s say that you are a child who has never seen fire before. You see a fire and you want to touch it (as we know, children are always exploring physical phenomena in order to learn what it is all about because everything in this world is new to them).  So, you put your hand into the fire and experience a burning pain, and immediately withdraw the hand. Wisdom has just taught you that attempting to touch a fire is not a wise thing to do if you wish to preserve your physical health! So, from now on, you will be careful and cautious around fires. In this process, you correctly discerned the nature of fire (it is hot and destructive of the things it touches), and have come to the correct conclusion about it: fire can be a useful object to have, but one must be careful around it. One must respect what it can do.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This isn&amp;#039;t about the short term manipulation of your reactions just so you can &amp;#034;feel good&amp;#034; when something that you have previously viewed as being a negative is seeming to go against your &amp;#034;self.&amp;#034; It is about seeing reality as it is! This means accepting reality &lt;strong&gt;with equanimity&lt;/strong&gt;. And if necessary, figuring out how you are going to respond to this negative development without becoming distracted by totally breaking down emotionally. When you let your emotions become involved, sometimes, you stop thinking rationally. You stop seeing things as they are and figuring out how they got that way in the first place. See? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When you can see a mental reaction pattern that devolves into negative thinking patterns and fault finding, you stop looking for practical solutions to the matter and become engulfed in your own self imposed suffering (&lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;!). Your mind focuses solely on this negativity, causing you to suffer. See? And what you want to do is to see the truth about what is occurring so that you can react skillfully, becoming empowered by your own ability to correctly discern the truth. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin: &amp;#034;haha - my parent&amp;#039;s divorce and aftermath (my Big Issue) was never &amp;#039;my&amp;#039; fault because I was never a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039; in the first place!!!&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is a perfect complex problem with which to view with wisdom. While the conclusion you draw above may be correct as far as it goes, what it fails to take into consideration is that your &amp;#034;Big Issue&amp;#034; was an issue that you yourself created within your mind without any objective evidence that it was true! Why you took your parent&amp;#039;s divorce personally &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; you can say. What you took to be objective evidence was only your &lt;strong&gt;personal reaction&lt;/strong&gt; (the ego&amp;#039;s response) to the situation of your parents not being able to get along with one another, which likely didn&amp;#039;t involve you directly, but was more likely based on misunderstandings they had with one another and an inability or unwillingness to change.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you see this yet? You need to use your deductive and inductive reasoning processes in order to see the situation as it is with wisdom, &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; as you &amp;#034;think&amp;#034; it is! This is what Gotama was teaching through the use of meditation in order to calm the mind so that it could more easily gather true insight (i.e. not based upon prejudice or speculation) about reality. He taught people how to see things as they are, not to buy into illusions or delusive thinking about things. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In peace,&lt;br /&gt;Ian&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-26 07:12:43 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thought I&amp;#039;d had a very clear insight into &amp;#039;no-self-as-thing&amp;#039; which he defines as &amp;#039;classical enlightenment&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;stream-entry&amp;#039;. That is, when no feel-image-talk (or default mode network or whatever you want to call it) is arising, then &amp;#039;I&amp;#039;m&amp;#039; not there. Real time awareness of my sense of self waxing and waning, coming on and off line. So that as &amp;#039;stream-entry&amp;#039; rather than completing one progress of insight cycle. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQrUx010gvI&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I&amp;#039;m probably just kidding myself...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was taking &amp;#039;third&amp;#039; above to be significant baseline mental quietening and non-duality in daily life. But like Ian implies below, I&amp;#039;m obviously still not getting this!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-04-27 20:55:42 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;haha - shit. Back to the drawing board!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I think I see what you&amp;#039;re trying to say though...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Firstly, I need to develop equanimity towards whatever is arising in the field of awareness rather than trying to aggressively cut-off &amp;#039;unpleasant&amp;#039; mental arisings by noting them away - right? I&amp;#039;ll re-read the chapter in the book you suggested above on &amp;#039;feelings&amp;#039; and try and develop more mindfulness of neutral-pleasant-unpleasant. And mind-states? Need a better understanding of the Four Foundations. (And the rest of Buddhism!)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Secondly, now that mindfulness has brought all of the (previously unconscious) processes of mind (that still remain) into the light of day, I presumably have some work to do in terms of figuring out with a rational mind what faulty assumptions about my &amp;#039;solid&amp;#039; self are still giving rise to the negative mental patterns/habits above. Presumably starting with the ludicrously erroneous notion that I was somehow responsible for my parent&amp;#039;s divorce! I&amp;#039;m now the only one who&amp;#039;s in a position to try to understand (or care about!!) the workings of my own mind? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks again for all your help! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ian And - 2014-04-28 04:36:09 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope I think I see what you&amp;#039;re trying to say though...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Firstly, I need to develop equanimity towards whatever is arising in the field of awareness rather than trying to aggressively cut-off &amp;#039;unpleasant&amp;#039; mental arisings by noting them away - right?&lt;/strong&gt; I&amp;#039;ll re-read the chapter in the book you suggested above on &amp;#039;feelings&amp;#039; and try and develop more mindfulness of neutral-pleasant-unpleasant. And mind-states? Need a better understanding of the Four Foundations. (And the rest of Buddhism!)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, sort of. True equanimity (the kind that lasts and cannot be taken away from you) is developed through the process of gaining wisdom (i.e. knowing what is going on and not being phased by it). But yes to the second part of your statement. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s not about developing more mindfulness of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feeling just for the sake of it; although that in itself is not a bad thing. It&amp;#039;s about seeing the origination of whatever quality of feeling arises and understanding from whence it has arisen. When you see what causes the pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling to arise, then you have the key that is driving your volition (&lt;em&gt;sankhara&lt;/em&gt;, or reaction pattern). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s about seeing these processes in real time arise and pass away, and using that information to understand why you react (what triggers the reaction) in the way that you react. When you know how the mind is being manipulated through the aggregate of feeling (&lt;em&gt;vedana&lt;/em&gt;), that knowledge (wisdom) helps you to defuse the reaction pattern (as in knee jerk or subconscious reactions) through the development of equanimity toward formations. The equanimity many times comes from seeing that whatever it was that you feared (or whatever) was not as bad as your mind had imagined. Or from accepting the truth of whatever situation it is that you are observing. Acceptance &amp;#034;of what is&amp;#034; has a lot to do with alleviating &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt; and allowing you to better deal with whatever situation is confronting you. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Secondly, now that mindfulness has brought all of the (previously unconscious) processes of mind (that still remain) into the light of day, &lt;strong&gt;I presumably have some work to do in terms of figuring out with a rational mind what faulty assumptions about my &amp;#039;solid&amp;#039; self are still giving rise to the negative mental patterns/habits above. Presumably starting with the ludicrously erroneous notion that I was somehow responsible for my parent&amp;#039;s divorce!&lt;/strong&gt; I&amp;#039;m now the only one who&amp;#039;s in a position to try to understand (or care about!!) the workings of my own mind?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now you&amp;#039;re back on track, Robin (regarding the emboldened comment in the above quote of yours). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, yes, to the question you asked next. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In peace,&lt;br /&gt;Ian&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Robin Woods - 2014-05-06 17:02:57 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok - obviously more study and reflection needed!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, very briefly, this does feel like a totally new shift:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thoughts without a thinker. After being puzzled by this for years, it&amp;#039;s immediately apparent what this means now. The thought IS the thinker right? There&amp;#039;s no &amp;#039;me&amp;#039; hiding in my body somewhere(?) &amp;#039;behind&amp;#039; the thought. The thought is simply the thinker process activating?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My sense of self also seems to have become &amp;#039;elastic&amp;#039; for want of a better word:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One minute I&amp;#039;m the ambient sounds of a train station. The next I&amp;#039;m me and a tree. The next my old(?) self has come full-force back online &amp;#039;cos of something at work. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also can&amp;#039;t seem to find myself when I look inside. I find a foot sensation. a passing visual memory. Never any essential, core &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not sure the best words are coming out; and apologies if all this is obvious. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Bit confused about maps now too. Is there any way to map this shift in perspective on the MCTB model?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dream Walker - 2014-05-06 18:53:53 - RE: Third&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The predominate aspect of third from my experience was the change in proprioceptive selfing processes.  The selfing process that created an illusion of a center point in my body (behind the eyes, chest, stomach) stopped. The same with the outside limit at the skin as well as the personal bubble.  The sense of possession/ownership/me-ness relating to these ended.&lt;br /&gt;The other aspect was that the panoramic viewpoint was now the natural state without effort like second path. Let go of thought and focus and you slide naturally into the panoramic viewpoint/awareness.&lt;br /&gt;Link &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3529941"&gt;Looking for help getting to 3rd path&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2014 10:27:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5527833</guid> <dc:creator>Migration 6.2 Daemon</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-05-07T10:27:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Making it clearer</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5455312</link> <description>update or correction.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;what i now gather is that this was 3rd chakra opening. This is 2nd path not even 3rd.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:15:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5455312</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-25T14:15:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5301771</link> <description>edit: my post was bs</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 11:06:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5301771</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T11:06:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5301217</link> <description>The direct realization of Awareness is an important realization in my path, then later intergrated with insights into no-self and emptiness. These links might be of interest: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html , http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/zen-exploration-of-bahiya-sutta.html</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:41:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5301217</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T07:41:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300758</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Avi Craimer:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The nutshell version is that it basically comes down to whether you think enlightenment is a one way trip to non-dual consciousness. In that case, as Daniel says, concepts like awarness/true self/God are pretty much conceptually redundant. They don&amp;#039;t really add anything over and above phenomena manifesting and knowing themselves..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure I agree with your interpretation of Daniel&amp;#039;s position (although I could be missing something)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;True Self and no-self are actually talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives. Each can be useful, but each is an extreme. Truly, the truth is a Middle Way between these and is indescribable, but I will try to explain it anyway in the hope that it may support actual practice.&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;You see, as all phenomena are observed, they cannot possibly be the observer. Thus, the observer, which is awareness and not any of the phenomena pretending to be it, cannot possibly be a phenomenon and thus is not localized and doesn’t exist. This is no-self. However, all of these phenomena are actually us from the point of view of non-duality and interconnectedness, as the illusion of duality is just an illusion. When the illusion of duality permanently collapses in final awakening, all that is left is all of these phenomena, which is True Self, i.e. the lack of a separate self and thus just all of this as it is. Remember, however, that no phenomena abide for even an instant, and so are empty of permanent abiding and thus of stable existence. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT:&lt;br /&gt;Quoting Daniel without my own commentary seems annoying. So, it seems to me he&amp;#039;s saying that neither noself or True Self are true per se, far from saying that either is redundant.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 02:16:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300758</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T02:16:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300727</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;m in over my head in this discussion, but I suspect the answer can be found in some combination of the following links&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Dedekind. Those areas of the book clarify Daniel&amp;#039;s position. However, it doesn&amp;#039;t provide an &amp;#034;answer&amp;#034; just one point of view in the debate. I don&amp;#039;t want to pursue this further here, but I am going to write a longer post at some point soon that addresses the whole enlightenment and God question in more depth. The nutshell version is that it basically comes down to whether you think enlightenment is a one way trip to non-dual consciousness. In that case, as Daniel says, concepts like awarness/true self/God are pretty much conceptually redundant. They don&amp;#039;t really add anything over and above phenomena manifesting and knowing themselves. On the other hand there are perspectives that say that getting to the point of non-dual consciousness is only one half of the trip, and that process of returning from non-dual consciousness to see how things manifest out of the absolute is a further stage of the spiritual journey. Then the concept of Awareness, God, or as the Zen teachings put it &amp;#034;The One,&amp;#034; do some real conceptual work.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 01:20:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300727</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T01:20:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300603</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m in over my head in this discussion, but I suspect the answer can be found in some combination of the following links&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB%20No-self%20vs.%20True%20Self?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB%20No-self%20vs.%20True%20Self&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB%20The%20God%20Models?p_r_p_185834411_title=MCTB%20The%20God%20Models&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This is one of those questions that tends to arise when Hinduism or Christianity come in contact with Buddhism. However, perhaps it should arise more when Buddhism is thinking about itself. I include this discussion here because it addresses some points that are useful for later and previous discussions. True Self and no-self are actually talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives. Each can be useful, but each is an extreme. Truly, the truth is a Middle Way between these and is indescribable, but I will try to explain it anyway in the hope that it may support actual practice. It may seem odd to put a chapter that deals with the fruits of insight practices in the middle of descriptions of the samatha jhanas, but hopefully when you read the next chapter you will understand why it falls where it does. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Buddhism also contains a strangely large number of True Self teachings, though if you told most Buddhists this they would give you a good scolding. Many of these have their origins in Hindu Vedanta and Hindu Tantra. All the talk of Buddha Nature, the Bodhisattva Vow, and that sort of thing are True Self teachings. True Self teachings point out that this “awareness” is “who we are,” but it isn’t a thing, so it is not self. They also point out that we actually are all these phenomena, rather than all of these phenomena being seen as something observed and thus not self, which they are also as they are utterly transient and not awareness. This teaching can help practitioners actually examine their reality just as it is and sort of “inhabit it” in a honest and realistic way, or it can cause them to cling to things as “self” if they misunderstand this teaching. I will try again... &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this helps</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 23:54:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300603</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T23:54:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300551</link> <description>Part of the reason of why I perhaps don&amp;#039;t find it puzzling, is that, as an unenlightened being, I still have a sufficient sense of &amp;#034;bare transient phenomena&amp;#034;, or at least that description resonates with meditative insights etc...and so it feels like it could be that simple. What I assume I lack is the clarity in seeing how the positing and false assumptions get added on, the movements of the mind that creates the layers, and so on. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, I have a strong naturalistic perspective which biases me to think about questions of fundamental nature of reality in a certain way (and likely think of the question quite different from you), making some views more or less coherent than others. In the naturalistic worldview, the transient experience that occurs (that &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; experience) doesn&amp;#039;t occur ex nihilo, but occurs of the ordering principles of individual brains. And that naturalism leads me to think that thousands of years of debate is leaning strongly towards one particular view. In terms of 1st experience or perspective, there are different positions, which in some sense, are equally valid. But I suppose, in relation to your basic point (and what I am reacting to), I am suggesting that, at least in my eyes, it is entirely plausible that those kinds of experiences can be interpreted in one way.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 23:04:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300551</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T23:04:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300529</link> <description>I just finished listening to this &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistgeeks&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;02&amp;#x2f;bg-207-the-tantric-cousins&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Buddhist Geeks Podcast&lt;/a&gt; interview with Sally Kempton about the relation between Buddhist and Hindu Tantra. The last part (about 20min in) sheds some interesting light on this debate. The way she puts it is, that there is always a question of whether to regard that pure awareness as &amp;#034;emptiness&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;fullness&amp;#034; as no-self or as an ultimate divine self. This has been the difference between Buddhism and Vedanta since the beginning, and I suppose we are unlikely to resolve the question any time soon. I, as you may have gathered lean strongly toward the &amp;#034;fullness&amp;#034; side, although having had insight experiences, I can understand the other way of describing it as well. There is a sense in which progress of insight makes things seem less and less substantial. Yet, on the other hand, if one is open to such things, there is also a tremendous down-flow or manifestation of new realities out of the void. Of course, one could choose to ignore all such phenomena or say that they don&amp;#039;t prove anything about the fundamental nature of awareness since this can&amp;#039;t be experienced directly. They&amp;#039;d be right, yet there are lot&amp;#039;s of things we believe based on inference and indirect evidence. Scientists believe in dark matter based on the way gravity seems to behave even though it&amp;#039;s never been directly observed. It&amp;#039;s not necessarily a simpler theory to believe that there is nothing but bare transient phenomena, as this requires positing everything that happens as arising completely ex nihilo without any ordering principle. That sort of view definitely doesn&amp;#039;t withstand Occam&amp;#039;s Razor. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, this is getting away form my basic point. My basic point wasn&amp;#039;t to argue in favour of the True Self/God view over the no-self view. That&amp;#039;s probably a hopeless debate as thousands of years of history have failed to resolve it. I was simply trying to say that it&amp;#039;s not plausible to think that the &lt;em&gt;experience&lt;/em&gt; of non-dual consciousness/enlightenment can only be straightforwardly interpreted in one way. Clearly, different mystics in different traditions do experience enlightenment in different ways, some of which involve the idea of pure awareness/God. In other words, once achieving 4th path, it&amp;#039;s not like there are then no options for how to understand the fundamental nature of reality, and the no-self view becomes the only possible coherent position. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, of course, it&amp;#039;s always hard to argue about these things when one hasn&amp;#039;t yet experienced them oneself. Daniel has and I haven&amp;#039;t, or at least not as fully as him. Us not-yet-fully-enlightened folk can only rely on the testimony of those who we believe have plausibly experienced the state. Daniel&amp;#039;s testimony is that awareness is &amp;#034;just nothing but bare transient phenomena themselves,&amp;#034; and I simply was trying to balance that by pointing out that other people who plausibly have reached the same or higher levels of attainment vis-a-vis non-dual consciousness claim that awareness is something that is indescribable yet definitely real and non-redundant.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 22:37:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300529</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T22:37:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300462</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Avi Craimer:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It is so shockingly straightforward, so literal, so immediate, so simple, this awareness being actually just nothing but bare transient phenomena themselves, thus being a redundant concept, an unnecessary posited extra, a false extrapolation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet, as you point out in your book, that&amp;#039;s only one opinion. There is the whole True Self perspective. The Tibetans talk about awareness as actually doing stuff such as imprinting the images of meditational deities in the minds of enlightened practitioners. This Vajrayana view is of course more consistent with the views of almost every other religious mystical tradition outside of Buddhism. Whether you look at Kabbalah, Hermeticism, or Vedanta, they all posit that the ineffable indescribable divine (awareness) has an effect on perceptible reality via emanation, manifestation, incarnation, prophecy, etc. Therefore, when you consider all the data from the world&amp;#039;s contemplative traditions both in Buddhism and outside of it, the Theravada perspective that awareness is a redundant concept seems like a serious outlier. I say this with no disrespect for that tradition, or for the perspective you hold. I&amp;#039;m just pointing out that it can&amp;#039;t be as straightforward as you make it sound unless we posit that a whole bunch of highly evolved people throughout history and across cultures were completely deluded. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d love to hear your further thoughts on the subject.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;well, here are someone else&amp;#039;s thoughts on the subject...why not posit that a whole bunch of highly evolved people throughout history and across cultures were completely deluded?! I don&amp;#039;t see that as a strong argument. I mean, for example, such people used to think the Sun went the Earth, a lot of such people believed in God (and still do) and so on....&lt;br /&gt;I suspect that you lean more towards a perennial philosophy perspective?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know to what extent &amp;#034;awareness is a redundant concept&amp;#034; is an orthodox therevadan view or more Daniels take but what I like about Daniel&amp;#039;s description is that it perhaps it gives us some help to think about what consciousness is, who and what we are...Maybe its just replacing one riddle for another, but for me seeing the basic substrate of mind as &amp;#034;bare transient phenomena&amp;#034; instead of &amp;#034;awareness&amp;#034; or True Self or whatever, is less...puzzling. And so I would happily embrace the idea that most people have been barking up the wrong tree in thinking about it. Maybe what makes it less simple is that to say that awareness is redundant goes too far, instead, perhaps we could think that bare transient phenomena of other bare transient phenomena creates a feedback loop which gives rise to our sense of awareness, which in some sense IS necessary, and is not &amp;#034;false&amp;#034; - but can lead us to mistaken assumptions (sometimes associated with particular meditative states) of seeing this extra as being the substrate, and &amp;#034;who we are&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 21:54:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5300462</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T21:54:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5299919</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It is so shockingly straightforward, so literal, so immediate, so simple, this awareness being actually just nothing but bare transient phenomena themselves, thus being a redundant concept, an unnecessary posited extra, a false extrapolation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet, as you point out in your book, that&amp;#039;s only one opinion. There is the whole True Self perspective. The Tibetans talk about awareness as actually doing stuff such as imprinting the images of meditational deities in the minds of enlightened practitioners. This Vajrayana view is of course more consistent with the views of almost every other religious mystical tradition outside of Buddhism. Whether you look at Kabbalah, Hermeticism, or Vedanta, they all posit that the ineffable indescribable divine (awareness) has an effect on perceptible reality via emanation, manifestation, incarnation, prophecy, etc. Therefore, when you consider all the data from the world&amp;#039;s contemplative traditions both in Buddhism and outside of it, the Theravada perspective that awareness is a redundant concept seems like a serious outlier. I say this with no disrespect for that tradition, or for the perspective you hold. I&amp;#039;m just pointing out that it can&amp;#039;t be as straightforward as you make it sound unless we posit that a whole bunch of highly evolved people throughout history and across cultures were completely deluded. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d love to hear your further thoughts on the subject.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 19:15:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5299919</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T19:15:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5296594</link> <description>There are only the phenomena, no awareness, just qualities of space, nothing that knows them except themselves, but even that would seem to imply something more complex than what is going on. It is so shockingly straightforward, so literal, so immediate, so simple, this awareness being actually just nothing but bare transient phenomena themselves, thus being a redundant concept, an unnecessary posited extra, a false extrapolation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As to where it is found, look up Ten Fetters: it is the standard model of Theravadan Buddhism. You can find it in lots of places that talk about the paths.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2014 02:04:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5296594</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-14T02:04:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5293741</link> <description>Thanks for your response. It clarifies things. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;As you probably know, the standard dogma would say that anagamis cling not only to jhanic factors but also Restlessness and Worry, Conceit, the Last Veil of Unknowing, so it is a bit more complex than that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m no expert on Buddhist doctrine so I didn&amp;#039;t know that. That helps. It&amp;#039;s nice for target practice so to speak. In what texts are these qualities described so that I can try to identify them in my vipassana practice?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;However, if by Jhanic you mean solidified in some way, meaning not vipassanized, meaning not clearly comprehending the Three Characteristics of every aspect of the entire experience field naturally, then, yes, it does make sense.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, I think that&amp;#039;s more or less what I meant, although I was focusing specifically on the jhanas lately and it sort of came to seem like all the clinging I was aware of was jhana factor related. However, that&amp;#039;s probably just the layer that&amp;#039;s come into focus for me at this point.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Beware of positing something that could be not absorbed and not caught in things, as that is a subtle duality. May have misread you on this, but it seemed you were looking for something that could stay out of absorption.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for catching that, when I wrote the post I may indeed have been thinking that. The idea was that I could sort of fix my mind on some experiential moment between one absorption and the next. But of course, even if that were possible, that inter-jhanic thing would just be another experience and therefore not awareness. But is there such a thing in your experience? The last veil of unknowing perhaps &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 21:49:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5293741</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-13T21:49:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5289613</link> <description>As you probably know, the standard dogma would say that anagamis cling not only to jhanic factors but also Restlessness and Worry, Conceit, the Last Veil of Unknowing, so it is a bit more complex than that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, if by Jhanic you mean solidified in some way, meaning not vipassanized, meaning not clearly comprehending the Three Characteristics of every aspect of the entire experience field naturally, then, yes, it does make sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Beware of positing something that could be not absorbed and not caught in things, as that is a subtle duality. May have misread you on this, but it seemed you were looking for something that could stay out of absorption.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thoughts?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2014 07:47:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5289613</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-13T07:47:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Un-Jhanaing Everything</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5259775</link> <description>There is a Buddhist doctrine that I&amp;#039;ve really come to appreciate lately. I says that the anagami only clings to jhanic factors, not to anything else. This used to seem implausible to me because I thought, &amp;#034;I&amp;#039;m an anagami and I still cling to lots of things.&amp;#034; However, recently I&amp;#039;ve had some insight that&amp;#039;s changed my mind. I realized that although I do still cling to lots of things, upon examination everything I&amp;#039;m clinging to is something my mind can concentrate on enough to generate jhanic factors. As I&amp;#039;m doing my insight practice I&amp;#039;m starting to notice that everywhere I turn my attention I&amp;#039;m in a jhana on that thing. Anything that is too gross or too unpredictable to be jhanaized my mind just ignores, like it&amp;#039;s totally transparent. The jhanic states are about the only things that actually seem solid and real, everything else is empty and insubstantial. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s a challenge to come out of these automatic jhanic states because whatever I&amp;#039;m in jhana on seems like me/self, and to come out of jhana I have to posit some awareness that is separate from that object/self. However, this idea gives me a new understanding of the third characteristic (no self). The third characteristic at this stage could be understood as instruction to de-jhanaize everything, including those habitual identifications that awareness is almost always unconsciously absorbed in. To exit jhana you have to keep watching the object while also beginning to experience awareness as separate from that object (rather than absorbed). As I do this, I realize that the awareness that separates off from the habitual absorption in &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; is not any other thing it is just awareness. But almost immediately after it splits off, there is a tendency for it to become absorbed in something else, which then comes to seem like self. So the key may be to just keep un-jhanaing and watching the process carefully to try to identify that moment between absorption in Object A and re-absorption in some other Object B. That moment when awareness is totally unabsorbed is the moment when it is not clinging to anything as &amp;#034;self&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this make sense as an insight practice?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2014 22:16:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5259775</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-06T22:16:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: third path please help</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5211644</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tarin greco:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i&amp;#039;ll also add that the following things were useful: seeing the sensations that imply focus, that imply out-of-focus, that imply focusing, that imply looking, that imply perspective, that imply distortion, that imply distance, that imply duration, that imply directness of experience.. and of course, the usual suspects of sensations that imply things like space, super-space, emptiness, silence, luminosity, presence, etc etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;daniel&amp;#039;s advice in his most recent above post is spot on, come back to it and read it again periodically until you&amp;#039;re confident you know what it means and thus can do it yourself (with the confidence that understanding instills).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and forget the notion that you have to sit to do this, if you really want to get it you should be doing it in everyday life.. sufficient obsession is sufficient. ok, good luck.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tarin&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve been reading this thread over and over and contemplating the information. I posted on another thread and it seems more appropriate here&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have been reading and contemplating the work of third path heavily lately and seem to have found a few nuggets that I am still trying to turn into a direct practice. I looked behind the doer/agency and saw the controlling aspect. I then looked within the controlling aspect and saw that there was a selfing process entangled with selection. In selecting anything including 6 senses, space, &amp;#034;stabilizing&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;tone&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;access&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;nothingness&amp;#034;, states or nonstates there seems to be a fundamental aspect that needs to be addressed. I currently select to see reality as it is and in doing so I momentarily stop the things that obscure this baseline state. Therein resides the problem, the need to select.&lt;br /&gt;This is my current understanding as it is; more contemplation and practice with this may illuminate an even deeper level to address next. If anyone has advice as to a direct practice to catch the selecting happening with more clarity I would be most appreciative.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any advice about what they did to untangle the knot once and for all? An actual practice would be nice, I have found applying the 3 C&amp;#039;s to whatever I&amp;#039;m trying to disembed/untangle has worked as long as I could see the object that was entangled clearly. I&amp;#039;m at a lack of finding a way to see selection with clarity so far. Any hints tips tricks and the results thereof would be great.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Feb 2014 20:06:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5211644</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-16T20:06:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5187289</link> <description>Hi Andrea,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Andrea B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;... but which I decided to use in order to have a working model, and especially one which gives a person a sense of progress like a status bar when installing software. It&amp;#039;s hard to go through daily practice and even retreats without a sense that one is clearly headed somewhere.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s one exercise found in the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Three&amp;#x25;20Kayas&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;5415D5CB2093B2E1DBF154DF663D84C4&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;MCTB&amp;#x25;20The&amp;#x25;20Three&amp;#x25;20Kayas"&gt;MCTB Chapter on &amp;#034;The Three Kayas&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;which I really like to do and which I have recommended to others, who have responded with mixed enthusiasm &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/blink.gif" &gt; But since I am such a big fan of it, here it is yet again:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;MCTB The Three Kayas:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I think that everyone on the spiritual path should occasionally sit down with a piece of paper and list their favorite half of reality that they imagine or wish would be left if they got fully enlightened, and then list all the aspects of reality that they wish or “know” would vanish forever. They should then list the things that they imagine would show up as a result of full realization that are not here now. The differences between these lists often point directly to what blocks the development of wisdom from clear acceptance and understanding of reality.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Andrea B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Regardless of the model I use however there seems to be little to do other than soldier on and keep marching ahead letting things unfold as they unfold.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; allowed to have fun, you know? Whenever you do something you enjoy, there will be something practice-related to it. Soldiering on sounds like a drag (unless you enjoy soldiering on, of course).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;beingordinary&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;2014&amp;#x2f;02&amp;#x2f;44-ona-kiser-magick-meditation-and-mass&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Ona Kiser&lt;/a&gt; seems to be quite happy with the unfolding of things as they unfold, which involved being baptised and becoming Catholic at some point.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Me, I enjoy a bit of goofy Western Wisdom Tradition (a.k.a. Magick).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not necessarily a third-path specific recommendation, having fun, but important, to me at least.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:36:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5187289</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-05T17:36:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5178401</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I kind of get what Pawel is saying but I think it&amp;#039;s better at your stage to be equanmous to all phenomena (thinking/paying attention - which does feel like something/body sensations/anything) and let it all be observed. Thinking is trying to control things by thinking conceptually about doing before the actual doing. Treat the thoughts the same way as you treat sensations. This means that you need to explore what thinking feels like so it isn&amp;#039;t separate from any other sensations. What does paying attention feel like? What does the intention to pay attention feel like? Is there any aversion to your practice, even in minute ways?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So sensations at the back of the head or forehead or neck or thinking or strategizing meditation practice or analyzing the results of meditation practice is just more sensations. If you can note those things and then try and just be with bare attention of those things and drop the noting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then notice vibrations and waves of all phenomena and how the brain likes to put the vibrations together into objects to like or dislike. Watch them disintegrate on their own. Any analysis of the practice and progress is just more sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope that helps.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for this advice (and other ones from others as well). It seemed I have caught in low-energy/ sleepiness/laziness state for many weeks now. Your post just motivated me to look at the experience again somehow. Do things without thinking (or more like worrying) about them sounds great, and I will try that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a couple of questions though. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) You mention drop the noting. Is this really for third? I&amp;#039;m confused from the post that follows. I don&amp;#039;t note all the times, as that seemed to create aversion rather than being with experiences completely. However, occasional note helps put perspective into things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) On being equanimous with everything. I read the book &amp;#034;the end of your world&amp;#034; by Adya, and he seemed to suggest to feel whatever emotions/ thoughts needed to be felt (whatever you are identifying with). That sounds, to my experience, exactly opposite to being equanimous. I mean sure after that stuff passes, it becomes easy to be equanimous, but while that happens, definitely not although it has been very helpful to listen to myself completely with compassion.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 02 Feb 2014 13:09:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5178401</guid> <dc:creator>Julie V</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-02T13:09:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5172724</link> <description>Instead of shifting my mind states now I prefer to visualize them.&lt;br /&gt;So when I say to take spaces and stuff and do that or that I merely mean acting on visualizations.&lt;br /&gt;Not necessarily moving them anywhere but seeing ongoing process of visualization will make desired shift to 4th jhana type of perception of reality, disidentification with what is seen and seeing reality as it really is. Namely going from Dark Night to Equanimity/Heart which is truly final stage.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After it there is only death as final fruition... though there won&amp;#039;t be reboot after that...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;edit//&lt;br /&gt;I am at saying that I at final stage coz I am considering myself merely 2nd patch. It is just my current understanding that true and full EQ in Enlightenment vs partly EQ that one have before 4th path like the one I have now. Its still nice even though its evident I am far from being &amp;#039;done&amp;#039; &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2014 21:07:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5172724</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-30T21:07:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5172631</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;One last piece of advice, if you can shift your focus by looking off in the distance with a &amp;#034;thousand yard stare&amp;#034; such that your peripheral vision is being used and you can see your nose and edges of your vision at the same time; your hands take on the quality of doing their own things and it seems like some self drops away/non-dual gets stronger, Do this a lot and get comfortable with this...it will be your new baseline without needing to use any effort to maintain. (my experience was I could do this in the honeymoon phase post 1st path but faded, became accessible all the time second path with effort)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok, the penny just dropped and I am laughing my a$$ off at myself. I was talking to Florian on the chat line a while ago after second path and telling him about the &amp;#034;thousand yard stare&amp;#034;/nondual/less self state and he said to do this a lot. I took the advice seriously and as I like &amp;#034;altered&amp;#034; states I played around with it a whole lot. I never considered it meditation practice. I was just screwing around like it was a game and wanted to play with what the rules were. Besides, when you &amp;#034;get&amp;#034; a superpower (lol) from a path I can not help but play with it, am I right? So what did I explore? All the great advice that is written above.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paweł K:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;have you tried to bring all spaces, all me and not_me regions into one space that can contain everything all while being none of it and not identified with anything that is in it?&lt;br /&gt;try to &amp;#039;put&amp;#039; everything into such space and see if it helps or not&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pawel&amp;#039;s advice was only confusing because when shifting states it is all self evident without labels in that &amp;#034;state&amp;#034;. So first you need to shift focus to this &amp;#034;state&amp;#034;. If you have no idea about this then everything above and following will make no sense. Go outside or look out the window and look towards the horizon. Open your peripheral vision to include the edges of your vision. Use your fingers to find the edges the first time by wiggling them at the very edge of the corners of your vision. Now stop having a actual focal point in the center. Take it all in relaxingly. Notice the nose and eye-ridges are visible without refocusing your eyes in any way. Notice your eyelashes. Rest your hands in front of you so they are part of the perspective. Now stop breaking it down to things and just let it take on an all inclusive, one thing quality. Practice this without moving at first. Add walking meditation to it. Practice this in other scenarios. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is my off the cushion &amp;#034;so called&amp;#034; practice explained -&lt;br /&gt;1) Shift &amp;#034;states&amp;#034; so that everything is in one space, open and wide, clear, inclusive&lt;br /&gt;2) Notice the differences of the &amp;#034;state&amp;#034; vs before. Notice the quietness of thought and how the selfing processes/identification seem quieter. Notice the obvious no self qualities. Notice your hands doing their own thing- driving, washing dishes and typing were very visible examples.&lt;br /&gt;3) It took effort to create and stay in this &amp;#034;state&amp;#034;. Look at the effort itself....explore this in every way as mentioned above. Notice the subtle stress in the effort.&lt;br /&gt;4) Release the effort, drop out of the &amp;#034;state&amp;#034; fast as well as slowly and notice the old baseline state with its attributes come back. Notice the differences. Apply the impermanence characteristic to the differences.&lt;br /&gt;5) Repeat throughout the day as much as you can every day. Had I known the importance of this stuff I&amp;#039;d have set a 15 minute timer to remind me to shift more often.&lt;br /&gt;I hope this clarifies stuff...reread the thread after trying this stuff and see what you think.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks everyone for the great advice, sorry I am so obtuse at times. When it clicks it clicks...even after the fact sometimes&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I mentioned before, this so called &amp;#034;altered state&amp;#034; is my new permanent (so far) baseline. On the cushion and off the cushion. I still get wrapped up in thoughts and don&amp;#039;t notice the shift but it is always there. I don&amp;#039;t have a feeling of &amp;#034;returning&amp;#034; to it after a thought...more like the thought is the anomaly. I&amp;#039;ve noticed that my mind-states also don&amp;#039;t affect this state. I notice the effects of blood sugar dropping and notice my thought processes getting sluggish without it touching the baseline in any way. Emotional states happen, mind-states happen, thinking happens but they don&amp;#039;t touch the baseline, merely obscure it briefly to some extent. At the first pause they slip away. Good stuff. I think it worth the effort. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck all,&lt;br /&gt;~D.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:47:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5172631</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-30T19:47:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5170484</link> <description>1) try to look at awareness&lt;br /&gt;you will see light that is different than other lights&lt;br /&gt;investigate it&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) Most of my insight except 2nd path was from one practice I invented for myself which description is as simple as: &amp;#039;feeling multiple objects at once without flickering&amp;#039;. It sounds like mix of vipassana and samatha but it is different in many ways in its effects. It gave me synesthesia and generally I completed my first path using it so its potent&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another worth noting technique is &amp;#039;Making perception of time slower&amp;#039; which I also invented. I was was about to make thread about it but couldn&amp;#039;t make it not sound ridiculous. Anyhow its about slowing down time by zooming in into time frame which will make sensations much more detailed and time slower. It enable much better observation of sensations and to do some tricks with mind, program it to feel something or not feel something. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Starting last year I did some samatha breath meditation and vispassana noting. Though I spend much less time on those than on other techniques like this time thing or even chakra related meditation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) I think of myself as 2nd path in ten fetter model as I just reduced those fetters but not eradicated completely. I have gained some abilities to change perception parameters in real time, reduce pain and other not pleasant sensations, mostly with touch visualization but also with sensing intents to reprogram time frame. I have pretty good visualization of all senses including mental ones. And as a nice bonus my physical eyesight improved over the years in pretty much every way possible &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/huh.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;as to my previous comment, doing so is quite nice... and worth doing &lt;br /&gt;how to do that exactly... wish I could tell you but I am not good enough with words to express THAT &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 21:31:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5170484</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T21:31:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169632</link> <description>Do what Pawel and Richard suggest, exactly as written. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Understanding must become wider in scope and deeper. You can get depth by bringing more samatha to the practice (see above re: upgrading the graphics card on your mind). Scope is more difficult. Basically, whatever the mind fixates on, that has to be seen through. It&amp;#039;s common to get worked up over maps, models, and &amp;#034;Where am I?&amp;#034; here. Throw it in the hopper. Shine the light on it, see through it. Is the mind really caught up in something, seemingly lost in rumination with intense feeling? Jackpot. Shine the light on it &lt;em&gt;as it&amp;#039;s happening&lt;/em&gt;. Light up the dimension of &lt;em&gt;now &lt;/em&gt;in what seems to be something about the past or future. (If you don&amp;#039;t catch it while it&amp;#039;s happening, make a mental note to yourself to catch it next time.) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The directive about letting the waves of 5th jhana or even 4th jhana work through any sense of a centerpoint, doer, or perceive - all on their own - is a very good one. Simply doing that enough times will have an effect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Remember how to get stream entry, basic acts of attention, concentration, focus, desire for mastery, and practice itself had to get thrown in the hopper? Up in equanimity ñana? That&amp;#039;s gotta happen on a massive scale now. You&amp;#039;ll think of yourself as he-who-needs-to-get-enlightened, with the practice as the centerpoint/point of the spear, the mind/will as the doer, and x path as the goal. Third path involves the decomposition of that structure with its sense of centerpoint and direction, which is a big part of why there&amp;#039;s a baseline, off-the-cushion shift here where there wasn&amp;#039;t in previous paths. Richard&amp;#039;s instruction about looking at all the thoughts and feelings - that are happening right now and can only ever happen right now - that seem to be about practice (but which are really just happening right here, on their own) is spot-on. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But basically, yeah, put everything in the same space and watch what it does. Does it seem like something is resisting going in? Well that&amp;#039;s really interesting, because you&amp;#039;re pretty sure it&amp;#039;s already in there, right? How could it not be? So it must only appear like it&amp;#039;s not in there. Check that out. And while you&amp;#039;re at it, why does it feel like there&amp;#039;s anyone or anything that would be able to PUT anything into something anyway? Weird. See that through.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:32:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169632</guid> <dc:creator>Fitter Stoke</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T17:32:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169192</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Andrea B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Regardless of the model I use however there seems to be little to do other than soldier on and keep marching ahead letting things unfold as they unfold.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One thing to think about: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This field is it, totally, completely, so committing to being totally and very clearly present to this field here and now, all the way through, and abandoning the sense of progress in favor of the sense of immediacy, not in the sense of not working to be present to the immediacy, but in terms of starting to habitually perceive everything that has to do with past and future, with progress and stages, with practice and result, with self and other, and all of that as part of this field, right here, no exceptions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is like taking the last stand, the total stand, the complete stand, and in that synchronizing with the thing, finally, utterly, the ultimate settling in, the resolving nothing but this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is committing to no way out, Pema Chodron&amp;#039;s The Wisdom of No Escape, the Great Taking the One Seat.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:48:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169192</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T13:48:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169114</link> <description>Imho there is no paths existing in reality but lost effort.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will struggle and progress and then turn it into widom(fruition), this way your progress does not dissappear. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically nothing is ever lost some people say, is correct. But there is that every next fruition is harder to get. And for example you will struggle 20 years but not make it into wisdom it can be lost.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope it will help little bit settle your confusion about paths. The more you progeress the more open your heart is and less likely you will born in lower realms...</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:58:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169114</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T12:58:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169072</link> <description>Something i didn&amp;#039;t notice before is that noting deals with the 4th path directly.&lt;br /&gt;4th path is skandha of volition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example: You are reading a book then people next to you start to chating with eachother and this will start annoy you, stress rises.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Book here is skhanda of form- 1st path &lt;br /&gt;The feeling of annoy is skandha of feeling- 2nd path&lt;br /&gt;Your abilty to know who is &amp;#034;quilty&amp;#034; of this stress is skandha of perception-3th path&lt;br /&gt;Skandha of volition is your abilty to realize that its your wanting/will to read is the cause of stress(this annoyance).- 4th path&lt;br /&gt;This 4th path is permanent change. Wisdom that your wantings are the cause of your all issues.&lt;br /&gt;But even if its permanet when you try to do something still you will get angry when someone annoys you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Imho there is no centerpoint, no doer, no agent- is skandha of volition. Also after this 4th path no need to note anymore because noting itself is &amp;#034;your need to do something to attain something&amp;#034;. So to note skillfully to this point is to note everything no-self, impermanet and suffering.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;edit: will play this scanario hundreds of times, circling.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:23:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5169072</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T12:23:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5168841</link> <description>Hey Florian,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for the reply, it&amp;#039;s well thought out and I agree on the benefits of not counting and just going through the process as it unfolds. I am myself quite sceptical of whether there are &amp;#034;Four Paths&amp;#034; in the first place (it sounds like the typical &amp;#034;capitalised numbered list&amp;#034; which religious organisations come up with and which inevitably over-describe and constrain reality), but which I decided to use in order to have a working model, and especially one which gives a person a sense of progress like a status bar when installing software. It&amp;#039;s hard to go through daily practice and even retreats without a sense that one is clearly headed somewhere.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regardless of the model I use however there seems to be little to do other than soldier on and keep marching ahead letting things unfold as they unfold.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 09:35:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5168841</guid> <dc:creator>Andrea B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T09:35:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5166080</link> <description>I kind of get what Pawel is saying but I think it&amp;#039;s better at your stage to be equanmous to all phenomena (thinking/paying attention - which does feel like something/body sensations/anything) and let it all be observed. Thinking is trying to control things by thinking conceptually about doing before the actual doing. Treat the thoughts the same way as you treat sensations. This means that you need to explore what thinking feels like so it isn&amp;#039;t separate from any other sensations. What does paying attention feel like? What does the intention to pay attention feel like? Is there any aversion to your practice, even in minute ways?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So sensations at the back of the head or forehead or neck or thinking or strategizing meditation practice or analyzing the results of meditation practice is just more sensations. If you can note those things and then try and just be with bare attention of those things and drop the noting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then notice vibrations and waves of all phenomena and how the brain likes to put the vibrations together into objects to like or dislike. Watch them disintegrate on their own. Any analysis of the practice and progress is just more sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope that helps.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jan 2014 02:27:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5166080</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-29T02:27:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5165067</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paweł K:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;have you tried to bring all spaces, all me and not_me regions into one space that can contain everything all while being none of it and not identified with anything that is in it?&lt;br /&gt;try to &amp;#039;put&amp;#039; everything into such space and see if it helps or not&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am reminded by Ramana Maharshi&amp;#039;s simile &amp;#034;the stick that stirs the fire and is consumed by it&amp;#034; &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistgeeks&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2010&amp;#x2f;05&amp;#x2f;just-stop-when-awareness-surrenders-to-itself&amp;#x2f;"&gt; Just Stop: When Awareness Surrenders to Itself by Kenneth Folk &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It must be very frustrating to people who have burnt their stick up that others do not just throw their whole stick in the fire at once and be done with it. Your advice is excellent but to continue the simile I can not currently see the whole stick. Only the portion that is in the fire can I see with enough clarity to keep it there and as it burns down more of it becomes visible. This is very frustrating to me too. I know there is more stick and would love nothing more than to toss it in and be done with it. In my above post I wanted to capture this slice of the stick that I had visibility to and phenomenologically describe the current practice that lent visibility and describe the results of having done so. &lt;br /&gt;I currently feel like I am in stage 2.16 except the fruitions don&amp;#039;t have the same bliss wave after them like the first path ones did. I have no idea what that means besides added confusion. I am enjoying the baseline shift and the break that I am getting; it feels like the bus that I have been on for years has gone back to the bus barn and is gassing up for the next ride. &lt;br /&gt;I had a dream where I went thru multiple levels/state changes and the last one left me looking into the space where the self?/something? used to be. I took it as advice of where to look next and explore...seems mighty similar to aspects of your advice and Daniels advice from above.&lt;br /&gt;1) If you have any additional advice that can lend visibility to what you mean by &amp;#034;spaces&amp;#034; &amp;#034;all me&amp;#034; not-me&amp;#034; it might help. &lt;br /&gt;2)What specific practice allowed you visibility to these things/not-things/everythings? &lt;br /&gt;3)What were the results of these practices?&lt;br /&gt;(You&amp;#039;re pointing at the moon and I&amp;#039;m asking about your finger....sorry)&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your advice, time and effort.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:35:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5165067</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-28T19:35:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5164663</link> <description>I want to say this is my favorite thread on this topic too, but the more I read this stuff, the more I realize that I don&amp;#039;t undetstand any of these terms at all. I don&amp;#039;t know; maybe I&amp;#039;m just dumped, but really what are these things about space? About me, not me, and everything else. It makes me more confused.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I just do what I have been doing in previous path whatever it is, is this not going to work for third? (a serious question really)</description> <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:31:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5164663</guid> <dc:creator>Julie V</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-28T15:31:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5162980</link> <description>Go, Pawel! Go, Pawel! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jan 2014 02:58:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5162980</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-28T02:58:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5162122</link> <description>have you tried to bring all spaces, all me and not_me regions into one space that can contain everything all while being none of it and not identified with anything that is in it?&lt;br /&gt;try to &amp;#039;put&amp;#039; everything into such space and see if it helps or not</description> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:43:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5162122</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-27T22:43:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Looking for help getting to 3rd path</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5161720</link> <description>This is my favorite thread on this topic and I&amp;#039;ve reread it over and over trying to understand all Daniels advice...Still not there yet.&lt;br /&gt;I wanted to point out the things that I could understand and used as specific practices that I engaged in to shift my baseline. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;2) Going wide and through: as third is more spacious, more about dissolving a significant chunk of what seems to be observing, doing, controlling, analyzing, and the like, you both have to take on more of the sensations that seem to be all of that, which they aren&amp;#039;t, and also see how to dissolve the artificial boundaries that seem to delineate that from everything else, meaning the rest of what happens in what seems to be space. Play on that line: how do you know what the edge between what seems to be you and not you is, viscerally, perceptually, vibrationally, texturally, geographically, volumetrically? Any quality that you notice seems to really feel like it means it is you, see the Three Characteristics of that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Fitter Stoke:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;2. Feel the breath in the whole body. In other words, the whole body is breathing. For some reason, this makes a difference as opposed to just following the breath. I don&amp;#039;t know why. Maybe it&amp;#039;s because the sensations of the breath are now amplified, like they&amp;#039;re thrown up on a movie screen.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wish I could find and quote from Fitters??? practice journal on KFD as it stuck in my head but I can&amp;#039;t find it. It was about the center point and outside diameter of the perception of self. &lt;br /&gt;Practice-&lt;br /&gt;1) I really played with noticing the center point of what seemed to be &amp;#034;me&amp;#034;. This was hard as I could not solidify this sense. It always seemed vague and slippery and would move around from stomach to heart to third eye and seemed to be more chakras than really a sense of &amp;#034;me&amp;#034;. I applied the 3 C&amp;#039;s anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) The outside Diameter was a totally different experience. In investigating this it really seemed to arise and solidify nicely. sometimes on the skin, sometimes just above the skin and sometimes my personal bubble around me. The three characteristics are super easy to explore with the personal bubble...just step into a stranger&amp;#039;s space and feel the discomfort/stress/dukkha arise, step away and see how it fades/impermanent and notice that it&amp;#039;s not you, just an idea/pattern/process that is running telling you this is &amp;#034;my&amp;#034; space. (Yes this is creepy to do to someone without saying something like &amp;#034;excuse me are you using that weight/pencil/whatever?&amp;#034;) Besides you only need to do this several times before you know the feeling and can bring it up for investigation and apply Daniel&amp;#039;s advice of how do you know what the edge between what seems to be you and not you is, viscerally, perceptually, vibrationally, texturally, geographically, volumetrically.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) To notice the space between the center point and outside bubble, just follow the breath in the whole body. Feel space from the beginning compressed state to the expansion of the outside limit and see if there is any perception of the &amp;#034;my space&amp;#034; between these limits. Investigate per Daniel&amp;#039;s list above and apply the three C&amp;#039;s.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4) Additionally I would always start the meditation with happiness/loving kindness and use it to move me to second vip jhana, let go if it and move to vibrational third then let go and spend as much time in EQ as possible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One last piece of advice, if you can shift your focus by looking off in the distance with a &amp;#034;thousand yard stare&amp;#034; such that your peripheral vision is being used and you can see your nose and edges of your vision at the same time; your hands take on the quality of doing their own things and it seems like some self drops away/non-dual gets stronger, Do this a lot and get comfortable with this...it will be your new baseline without needing to use any effort to maintain. (my experience was I could do this in the honeymoon phase post 1st path but faded, became accessible all the time second path with effort)&lt;br /&gt;Hopes this helps,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:48:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5161720</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-27T20:48:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5158818</link> <description>There are many maps and models. Here&amp;#039;s one I like a lot:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;dharma-wiki&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Main&amp;#x2f;The&amp;#x25;20Simple&amp;#x25;20Model&amp;#x3f;p_r_p_185834411_title&amp;#x3d;The&amp;#x25;20Simple&amp;#x25;20Model"&gt;Simple Model&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It does not rely heavily on on-cushion experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One thing about third path is how the cycles are no longer a useful indicator of progress.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing about it is that there doesn&amp;#039;t seem to be anything besides the cycles.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet another thing is how good advice in the form of &amp;#034;relax, surrender&amp;#034; and so on is so annoying.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The other bit of good advice, &amp;#034;Keep doing what you&amp;#039;re doing&amp;#034; is also annoying, since that doesn&amp;#039;t lead anywhere obvious.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All that the surrender/keep going/relax advice is, is encouragement to pay attention to how things already are, cycles and dark nights and the entire huge branching fan of jhanas and ñanas and friends and family and neighbors and public transport and the plastic cup with a bit of dried up coffee dregs in it and so on. That&amp;#039;s Dhamma, all of it. There is only one thing going on. The instructions are simple - pay attention to what&amp;#039;s going on.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Third Path can suck. You don&amp;#039;t have to believe in third path, however. Explore your experience, don&amp;#039;t blindly follow maps out of habit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jan 2014 14:07:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5158818</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-26T14:07:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Is this Third Path? How to deal with it if it is?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5158488</link> <description>I apologise in advance for the length of this post. I divided it into sections and wrote it in bullet-point paragraphs to improve readability; I also tried to keep it to the essential but unfortunately the essential is a lot. My Dharma story is probably a little unusual, and what I need to figure out is whether I have somehow achieved Stream Entry before I had any formal practice to speak of, whether subsequently (after developing a formal practice) I got Second Path (or was it the First?), whether I am now somehow climbing my way up to Third Path and how to best deal with it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Part 1&lt;br /&gt;_________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• In 2008, long before I had a meditation practice to speak of (let alone Mahasi-style Dharma), I entered a period of intellectual reflection and pretty engaged introspection whose contours it would be unnecessary to detail here. In retrospect I see unequivocally that it contained significant doses of at least two of the three characteristics (impermanence, suffering). This process of reflection did *not* involve spending time regularly in a secluded space with my eyes closed. It was also not a deliberate process, in the sense that I did not know that I was doing something which was “separate” from the rest of my life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• This process brought me through different phases from an A&amp;amp;P phase, a Dark Night phase and Equanimity. I am debating with myself whether it produced Stream Entry. The data I am basing this theory on is as follows:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I have a very clear recollection of specific moments which in retrospect can easily be identified as 1) the A&amp;amp;P event 2) the beginning of ñana #6 Fear (several weeks later) and #7 Misery (starting about a month later, and lasting several months), with no clear recollections for the Disgust, Desire for Deliverance or Re-observation phases, although I certainly remember situations and emotional states in a compatible time frame which were very plausibly Disgust and Desire for Deliverance. My recollection and description of all these periods and changes was independent of my knowledge of the Theravada cycle of insight, of which I have learnt only in the past year.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt; About 7-8 months after the first Fear event, my attitude towards the feelings that were predominant in this period (which affected me deeply and made me barely functional) changed from “let’s ignore them until to go away” to “let’s look them straight in the eye because they ain’t going anywhere”. Some time after this I slowly transited towards a stage which was very plausibly Equanimity. The transition was so slow that only at some point I realised retrospectively that I hadn&amp;#039;t been feeling that bad about things recently.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; A couple of months after this Equanimity phase there was a period in which I would occasionally see “the bad feelings” surge again briefly, and then be gone shortly without giving much trouble (Dark Night during review?). At the time I interpreted them as a “scar” of what had happened which I believed I would have to carry with me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I also remembered feeling strange and somewhat worrying hiccups in reality (fruitions?) of which I didn’t think much at the time; they had come after so much mental pain and weirdness that I couldn’t care about them too much. Homer Simpson in one of the Treehouse of Horror episodes has a time-travelling toaster which keeps shooting him back and forth through strange and creepy alternate dimensions. Once he finds a universe in which the only weird thing is his family having lizard tongues, he just shrugs and says “Yeah…close enough”. That sums up my attitude towards these events at the time, so that when they stopped altogether (end of review?) I don’t think I even noticed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Once this period ended my life resumed as if it had all been a dream, which I was quite happy with, although in hindsight there have been many, little, hard to describe changes which I decided to ignore in the spirit of “Yeah…close enough” and not knowing what to do about them anyway. That period has also been the most significant watershed moment of my adult life, with a clear me-before and a me-after (something which I have considered true long before I knew what “insight disease” was).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; After this hypothetical stream entry I went through a period in my life characterised by a certain feeling of freedom and lightness, combined with the perception that I had somehow acquired some strange and pretty cool capacity for concentration and I realised I could play interesting mental tricks in my own head (a skill which I dropped later and whose existence I had even forgot about until very recently).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Note that:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• it was only much later (see Section 2) that I connected the earlier A&amp;amp;P phase (which I attributed to me just being so awesome) to the later phase, which was an utterly disconcerting period of unease which I even thought could be the sudden surfacing of some form of mental illness.&lt;br /&gt;• This period is pretty far back in time. Since it affected me quite badly I didn’t exactly go out of my way to remember its details, and I do not have many fresh memories of it. I suspect I could have planted some memories, since I only now tried to remember certain things because I went looking for them with hindsight knowledge (for example the fruition part, which I had all but forgotten about for years).&lt;br /&gt;• At no point in that period did I tell myself that “emptiness, suffering and impermanence are the three characteristics of perceptive reality”. I never conceptualised or verbalised the no-self/emptiness part throughout that entire time, although with hindsight I see that there was more than an smattering of it at the intuitive level. Impermanence and suffering in some guise or another were present in many of my reflections.&lt;br /&gt;• This “informal” dharma path has been for the most part an eyes-open thing, with me developing concentration and insights when I was thinking intellectually about insight-related topics themselves or other topics, maybe while walking briskly around town or sitting at the computer reading and writing. Whenever now I start developing serious 3C/A&amp;amp;P insight (e.g. see below in Section 2) I have the urge to open my eyes and start fixating a point in space with the “thousand yard stare”.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Part 2&lt;br /&gt;_________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• Fast-forward four years. I got into meditation in 2011, and I tried a few experiments with things which I neither understand nor like much (“generic” vipassana, Goenka), and which did nothing for me. The inspiration was the growing amount of scientific evidence that there is a lot more to meditation than the hippie hogwash that transpires in pop culture. At the end of 2012 I was eventually drawn through acquaintance with people who are familiar with the Mahasi method (and thanks to my allergy for vague fluff and BS) to the DhO, MCTB and the pragmatic dharma community. With the help of a teacher (perfectly competent and capable) I put myself through noting practice for a few months, which led to some insights and a lot of third-eye headaches (incidentally, I have seen this same problem discussed on DhO by other people, with very few answers), after which I decided I needed a retreat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• In June 2013 I went on retreat, planning to spend at the centre as much as 26 days to get Stream Entry. Mind you: at the time I had not connected any of the previous events to the map of Insight just yet, although with hindsight it seems preposterous. It only goes to show how those events had been filed in my head in completely different conceptual cabinets.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• On retreat I worked my ass off but nothing happened until day 8, when suddenly the third-eye pressure/pain dissolved suddenly (but temporarily) and a vortex of energy and momentous concentration produced incredible and incredibly quickly rising clarity. Over the course of three, maximum four hours the A&amp;amp;P (or something which was a hell lot like it) was in full blast and peaking. Its strength made me think of a quote from the guy who wrote on the NYT about a retreat he had at Daniel’s house: “you wouldn’t believe how hard I can stare at that tree”.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• At some point the A&amp;amp;P event came, and as it was unwinding into Dissolution I realised with profound clarity that I had felt that feeling before. I remembered the exact moment when it occurred back in ’08 and I instantly connected the dots. It happened in such a sudden and dramatic way that it made me feel a little like Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense when he finds out he was dead all along (spoiler I guess?).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• Consider that even as I had this realisation this time I still only imagined that I had journeyed from Zero to Equanimity (as Daniel also said it sometimes happens to some people in daily life), but I didn’t even dream I could have reached Stream Entry previously and on my own.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• Less than a minute after that realisation an unexpected and profound shiver of fear crawled up my spine. I braced for the Dark Night, and felt more and more instances of fear and anxiety throughout the day, but the next morning it was gone.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• The following five days I spent in a placid and somewhat uniform state which must have been Equanimity. The only hard proof I had that it was Equanimity was the fact that I entered quite frequently the Formless Realms whenever concentration was good enough, mistaking them for the door to Stream Entry which I felt I kept missing. I did not know that there were Formless Realms back at that point, or that they could naturally arise during Equanimity, which made scripting them impossible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• On the thirteenth day of the retreat I tried to catch some rest since I felt very tired, but I was distracted by the usual and continuous third-eye headache (now diminished in strength compared to the early retreat, but still present). As I was staring at it with my head on the pillow, just trying to “come to terms with it”, as I had since the beginning of the retreat, I felt something strange and I raised my head quickly as a napping cat might if he heard a suspicious noise. I felt a slight tingle running through my body, but concluded it could not be Stream Entry since there were no angels and trumpets and stuff (I knew that Stream Entry was not always an angels and trumpets affair, but come on, not even a little trumpet?). I put my head back on the pillow, but within a few minutes I was back up because something simply didn’t feel right. At this point I did not know Ananda’s story, nor was I even hoping to get SE while trying to sleep, so even here no scripting on this front.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• I did a couple of hours of vipassana to check the situation and I identified clearly and unmistakably the revving up of the engine of the A&amp;amp;P and the successive winding down and stabilising of Equanimity. I felt the tendency to restrict the focus on a single point of the A&amp;amp;P and the difficulty in taking in anything less than the entire field of Equanimity. I did not feel anything unpleasant in the place where the DN should have been, much like the real DN had barely been a whimper. Cessations were incredibly faint, to the point where I suspect that scripting them could have been possible. They were certainly a lot fainter than the already faint first one which woke me up. Each review cycle lasted around 20-25 minutes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• I did not know what to do and I did not have access to expert advice (the monks there were not exactly receptive to the idea I might be anywhere on the path of insight other than at the very beginning, and they had already politely ignored my suggestion that I might have gone through A&amp;amp;P and DN), so the next day I checked myself out and wrote an email to my teacher.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Note that:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• After the retreat this hypothetical review cycle continued to present itself spontaneously for 2-3 weeks in my daily life without the need of vipassana to “check” if something was still going on.&lt;br /&gt;• Mind you that at this point I was still asking myself whether I had completed First Path, not the Second. I was looking for proofs of completion of First Path following the standard 10 fetter model. Over the next few months I observed that I was certainly less angry and had at least some control over cravings (which are in theory hallmarks of 2nd Path). I noticed this change before I even began considering the possibility that it could have been Second Path, so even here little chance for scripting.&lt;br /&gt;• The retreat had felt relatively fruitless in terms of discovering new, interesting destabilising, truths. The only really big reveals (at least the ones which I conceptualised as they were occurring) concerned the nature and consequences of anger, and the clear intuitive viewing of the Self as a process which is generated by the mind whenever it is evoked, rather than something which just sits there and does stuff (all these intuitive epiphanies came when I was in Equanimity).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Part 3&lt;br /&gt;_________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• Not a month after these events I had a chance to spend about six days at Panditarama in Nepal. When I started the retreat I noticed that there was no review cycles going on, and as I went through the early insights I perceived them better and more clearly than before. The pressure on the Third-Eye showed up as usual. On day 5 I was hoping to get some A&amp;amp;P action before the retreat would end, so I really insighted the shit out of anything that happened and somehow managed to ignite something that might or might have not been an A&amp;amp;P, which however did not seem to reach a self-sustaining combustion and petered out within 20 minutes, bringing me back to 3C. Or perhaps I Samadhi-ed myself into imagining an A&amp;amp;P, if such a thing is possible? In any case, this was the first case of “non-linear” progression along the Path I had ever experienced.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• Once I returned home I practiced for about a month, hoping to get the easier Second Path out of the way “from home”, and save the next retreat for Third Path. In less than two weeks however it occurred in a couple of circumstances that I would go from 3C to A&amp;amp;P to pretty scary mini-Dark Nights in less than twenty minutes. At the end I would find myself again in a relatively insight-less territory, or maybe in 3C (with the Third-Eye headache often I can’t tell what is 3C and what is just a headache). These experiences left me a little shaken and decreased my real-world functionality for the rest of the day, so I resolved to just wait until the next retreat in January (now) for more vipassana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• During the retreat (which just ended after only 10 of 18 days I had planned) Third-eye pain/pressure presented itself as usual and continued throughout the retreat, increasing when I would do focused noting and becoming less prominent when I would try to take in more of my perceptive field. It was without doubt the biggest obstacle (as it usually is) to pour in more motivation into the practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• In terms of insight I seemed to do a lot of back-and-forth between what I would say are early insight stages, with a couple of instances of weak A&amp;amp;Ps. On the first day, when I was strangely well concentrated, I even saw what I interpreted to be a mini-Dark Night which lasted for 10 minutes and eventually brought me back where I had started from there was another on day 3. When I noticed some unusual hanky-panky coming from my mind I made the connection with Third Path and I started digging back in my memory to see for proofs of Stream Entry in ’09 (which I have discussed above). The rest of the retreat was still quite strange and more than a little frustrating, with a lot of back and forth between early insights and a weak A&amp;amp;P on day 8. Sometimes I would have a good sense of I-get-it-ness for the three characteristics and the next day or a few hours later it would go away.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• As inspirational material I brought with me the Hurricane Ranch transcripts, in which at some point Daniel discusses the fractal, non-sequential nature of third path (of which my teacher had already told me about in passing). I registered the data as I heard it but it took me a while to make the connection: I normally use my skeptic sense to wonder if I had achieved any paths at all, not whether I had completed more than I might imagine. Knowing all this from about day 4 onwards might have affected the way I felt about the non-sequentiality, although I was expecting this non-sequentiality to start after a clear, stable and powerful A&amp;amp;P phase.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Note that:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;• The strongest arguments that I can make myself against being in 3rd Path would seem the fact that I still don’t feel like my intuitive insight is especially strong, that dharma-insights in daily life still feel more like glitches in the Matrix rather than profound changes of perspective, and that I only ever really “got it” intuitively when I was going through the paths themselves, only to go back and be a muggle again once I get back to daily life.&lt;br /&gt;• I am not sure I can tell intuitively what many of the insight stages feel like. The last path I completed six months ago did not seem to have a well-formed, clearly recognisable Dark Night with the exception of a few moments of fear, and the early ñanas #1-2-3 just felt like a lot of noise. On the other hand the alleged first Path in ’08-’09 has sedimented too much for me to clearly see stages as stages rather than simply the fabric of which my life has been made of for the past five years. When I say in section 3 that I experienced a “mini-Dark Night” I only say so because I experienced a certain destabilising feeling which made me shit bricks, not because I can clearly connect it through similarity of texture to some other experience in the recent past which I remember well. &lt;br /&gt;• Until this point I have done no Samadhi work besides what is required for access concentration. I have no idea even what any of the first 4 Jhanas feel like (although I will probably realise I do if I try them), or how to enter them. All the 2nd and 3rd Path discussions I see here puzzle me endlessly when I see people discussing how they use the concentration Jhanas to help themselves moving along Paths.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_____&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for reading until the end, and sorry for the deluge of only possibly relevant data, I hope you found it at least a little interesting. I appreciate the advice and wisdom which this community has shown itself capable of producing overtime and I hope that someone has something interesting to say about all this.&lt;br /&gt;While I would appreciate of course discovering I am in Third Path, I am more specifically interested in defining with some degree of certainty what is going on (regardless of what is going on) so that I can tailor a strategy to move ahead in the near future.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks to everyone again&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A.&lt;/strong&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jan 2014 08:24:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5158488</guid> <dc:creator>Andrea B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-26T08:24:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hurricane Ranch Discussion, February 2009 (Transcript)</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5150260</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Drew Miller:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I suspect he may have been asking the question for the benefit of others. Facilitating a discussion. This is just speculation though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That makes sense; I guess that&amp;#039;s what it has to be. But you&amp;#039;d think he&amp;#039;d say &amp;#034;For our listeners, stream entry means...&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;Daniel, explain for our listeners...&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:46:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5150260</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-22T23:46:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hurricane Ranch Discussion, February 2009 (Transcript)</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147609</link> <description>I suspect he may have been asking the question for the benefit of others. Facilitating a discussion. This is just speculation though.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:32:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5147609</guid> <dc:creator>Drew Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-21T19:32:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hurricane Ranch Discussion, February 2009 (Transcript)</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5146308</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Fitter Stoke:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;p style="text-align: center"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;u&gt;Hurricane Ranch Discussion, February 2009&lt;/u&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;“In February of 2009, I invited several people to my house in Alabama, aka Hurricane Ranch, for a long weekend of discussion, sharing, and practice. Included in this group were several members of the Dharma Overground, as well as some older dharma buddies. Fortunately, while we were having tons of great dharma discussions we recorded one of them and it is available here for download. In this discussion we covered several different topics, but the main theme of the talk was ‘Getting it Done versus Doing It.’ Participating in this conversation were Hokai Sobol, Kenneth Folk, Vince Horn, Tarin Greco, and myself.” &amp;#x2013;Daniel Ingram&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;DI = Daniel Ingram&lt;br /&gt;HS = Hokai Sobol&lt;br /&gt;KF = Kenneth Folk&lt;br /&gt;TG = Tarin Greco&lt;br /&gt;VH = Vince Horn&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;KF: And when you say stream-entry, is that talking about enlightenment? What does that mean?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;DI: Yeah. So when I say “stream-entry”, meaning first stage of enlightenment, at least. Having cracked the thing, having entered the thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;KF: The first of how many stages?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;DI: Well, it depends on how you want to count them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;KF: In the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;DI: It would be four and then Buddhahood if you want, but they don’t assume that, so four. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok, I am a little confused. How did Kenneth Folk not know what stream entry was and how many stages there were in the Mahasi tradition in 2009? Hadn&amp;#039;t he been training in that tradition for years prior?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:30:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5146308</guid> <dc:creator>J C</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-01-21T09:30:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5012310</link> <description>This reminds me of Katy&amp;#039;s description of the post reboot skanda startup - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;4429584"&gt;LINK&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi DW,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Post fruition rebooting of the skandas would not necessarily show the &amp;#034;object&amp;#034;. What was your experience of the moments right before the fully ceasing and then re-igniting the mental layers/components/ the skandhas? Was there an object?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So my experience was using the light of full moon on river as object. The first sit of the morning was the moonlight on river ripples from high moon to until the moon set; when it set there was a basic mental stunning about my own conceit, a constant stream of mental assertions even with something like the moon and river. The second sit (in which the cessation occurred) took up a diffuse lamp light on the river ripples in the darkness after moonset. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When the re-ignition happened there was form without recognition and here there is no oneness nor separation: form has something like just the barest consciousness for itself-- but that sentence implies a separation, which there is not any awareness of except a hindsight sense that there was no form (nothing) immediately preceding form. It cannot make the slightest gradient with objects nor know plural objects or singular object, can&amp;#039;t say color/not color. There&amp;#039;s just form, no gradient anywhere. (Here the afferent nerve signals from the eye must be going to the brain, but brain networks that cause recognition and naming and associations and affect must not be triggered. For people who say they can cause full cessations and skandha re-ignitions regularly, I hope they offer this to research via fMRI and whatever other tools can measure what&amp;#039;s happening here and during the rest of the skhandas&amp;#039; re-ignition.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then there was recognition which was nearly instantaneous to sensation --- technically, I think sensation happened first, but it was so neutral that it was unnoticed until familiarity came up and this gave an obvious sensation and a sense of sensation gradient, from subtle-to-less subtle.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then after sensation and familiarity there was something like a radio happening, then the form (landscape: winter dawn white dark river pink white sky) suddenly seemed to brighten as if a dimmer switch was turned up throughout the whole form. This seemed like pure sentience, a kind of stand aside awareness. (I heard about six months later the samkya story of Parush and Prakrit and remembered this skandha triggering, thinking, yes, that&amp;#039;s how consciousness reacts to all that is not consciousness, with a sort of bright separateness that can alight on anything small and spread very very broadly suddenly, but it still knows &amp;#034;loves&amp;#034; its own animation relative to knowledge of just form. (So consciousness skanda has both friendliness and affinity because it can approach anything without harm, and it has a natural conceit because it seems &amp;#034;better&amp;#034; than form-alone skandha which does not at all kick up sensation, whereas the consciousness skandha inspires lots of sensation and generally very, very pleasant sensation unless it moves very fast and this can cause fear). Consciousness skandha caused a lurch-for-it sensation, as if the consciousness wanted itself. No other skandha needed it, had anything to lurch or incline for but itself. The consciousness aggregate, though, that creates a polarity, like there is somehow something seperate and exceptional to &amp;#034;go for&amp;#034;. And so this is where arupa jhana come from and how one can become a jhana junkie or have fun.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, lastly the &amp;#034;radio happening&amp;#034; turned out to be thoughts and those suddenly reminded me I was me. I could tell what I was thinking and there was not just a jumble of radio sounds and it was essentially, &amp;#034;What what what what what&amp;#039;s this what this..&amp;#034; then totally coherent.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Make any sense? Would you describe the full cessation-re-ignition you&amp;#039;ve experienced?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would you describe the full cessation-re-ignition you&amp;#039;ve experienced?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have not had a detailed skanda experience post cessation. The details I had was the seconds pre-cessation. That is where I was asking you to describe. Did you experience the entry point/object right before cessation?&lt;br /&gt;Description-&lt;br /&gt;I would be sitting in the sauna and get to EQ then I would feel the heat arise and pass away; get more intense then peak and fade more quickly than the build up (This was slow for me, it builds for like 2 - 3 seconds then passes away quicker like 1-2 seconds). at the bottom of the pass away it would hit bottom with a *thump* into a barrier that was solid but had some give to it like packed dirt. Then consciousness would fade slowly to almost gone and then fade back and this would happen again - Heat arises and passes away again, *thump* , fadeout again, on the last one the *thump* would be a breaking through the barrier into cessation, nothing, totally gone. The experience coming back was instant, consciousness was back, moment to notice, strong in breath and the bliss wave would roll over me. &lt;br /&gt;So the object pre-cessation that was presenting itself was &lt;span style="color: #FF0000"&gt;heat&lt;/span&gt;. It was slow and methodical and very clear.&lt;br /&gt;Sounds like between the two of us we have the whole picture &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your great description,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this is helpful....&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:59:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5012310</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-10T20:59:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5011311</link> <description>&amp;#034;Signless&amp;#034; Meditations in Pali Buddhism,&lt;br /&gt;by Peter Harvey&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ojs/index.php/jiabs/article/viewFile/8674/2581</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:00:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5011311</guid> <dc:creator>Stian Gudmundsen Høiland</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-10T15:00:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5006710</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hey Chuck, &lt;br /&gt;Your experience seems very familiar. For me it is hard to reproduce and it is the foremost reason why I have ever started a spiritual journey. Starting when young I would, as I lay down to sleep, start progressive relaxation, systematically from my toes to the head, My mother had taught me this one time when I was younger, I was a horrible nap taker. I would send out the intention to move a muscle, and/or relax a muscle, but not actually move any muscles, but lie perfectly still. From time to time one will find new pathways and new muscles that one was previously unaware. Then once at the top of the head, I would send the mind out as far as it would go. Mostly I would just fall asleep, but every once in a while , the &amp;#034;pulling&amp;#034; would start. It is , as if one were to have a soul, this would start to be &amp;#034;pulled&amp;#034; up and out. Anyway, not knowing what is going on, Fear and terror sets in, and it stops. I had always thought later this might be the start of OOBE, or was connected to the pull of the Full Moon or, well, who knew I was young.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Each time this has happened, I have tried to push the envelope farther, by being brave, that doesn&amp;#039;t really work. But the just observing with the equanimous mind was the key, no fear, just observe. The same skill to just &amp;#034;note&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway about a month ago, the &amp;#034;pulling&amp;#034; happened again, I was in Lion&amp;#039;s Pose, I let it happen, The best description is that the only phenomenon occurring is the existence of expansion, but super fast, like the Millineum Falcon&amp;#039;s jump to Hyperspace with just the sensation, no visuals. Then the thought arose &amp;#034;where am I &amp;#034; with that , I was aware of one of smallest tiniest pinpoints of light imaginable, a &amp;#034;million miles away&amp;#034;, then I was back, the body ,the mind ,the sense of self. I was like Hmmmm. So I closed my eyes , let go , and it happened again. There was no self in the experience upon reflection, when there was a self experiencing there was not the experience. Adding to as my memory comes together, after the &amp;#034;where am I &amp;#034; thought arose and when I saw the pinprick of light, I did have to &amp;#034;move&amp;#034; towards it with intention, and wasn&amp;#039;t exactly sure I would make it back.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So far as I can tell, this was Fifth Jhana. But, if it was Fifth Jhana, I do not see how one can have the experience and not have insights arise, thus dispelling any insight vs jhana debates.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, if that was not Fifth Jhana and I missed the use of the &amp;#034;Stillpoint&amp;#034;, Oops, Anyway, I am still assimilating the experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for being so open with your experiences.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;B&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First of all - you got a nice Mom. What a great gift to give a child. Have you posted anything about your relaxation technique? I think there would be allot of interest in that. How you do it and the kind of experiential qualities that mark its deepening? That could be very useful. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I relate to your descriptions. The &amp;#034;jump to hyperspace&amp;#034; - yes, that&amp;#039;s a good description of that roaring/rushing experience. Jhana definitions vary considerably. My sense of 5th jhana is that it is something like awareness seated on the edge of a vast void - like sitting on the edge of the grand canyon. But that&amp;#039;s just me. It could be the start of an OOBE as you say. My limited experience with these is that once &amp;#039;out&amp;#039; there is very much the sense of a self - a body - non-physical as it may be. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Fear and terror sets in, and it stops&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes. After this event occurred to me it was another 14 years and other odd experiences later that the not-self shift happened. During that time I had at least 20 or 30 events that sound similar to what you describe here. It would occur during meditation at times when I had become very calm. There would be a kind of movement - and a portal sort of thing would approach me (odd description but within awareness there is kind of a seat we take and this thing moves toward that &amp;#039;seat&amp;#039;). It had a certain quality that reminded me of that first experience when I was sucked out and there would arise either a feeling of excitement - and it would recede and disappear - or a feeling of fear - and it would recede and disappear.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After 14 years of that, one day it approached again - this time neither fear nor excitement arose - there was a sense that to move through it I would have to let go of everything I thought I was - and with that I just popped through and the door, the me that entered it, and the world that I had come from - disappeared and has never returned. It&amp;#039;s like Alice going through the looking glass and then the looking glass (and Alice as she had experienced herself) disappearing as well - it&amp;#039;s a one-way trip. The world that disappeared was like a mental overlay that gives a sense of reality to our thoughts - projects them out onto phenomena. There is a point in practice where we become aware of this overlay - we know we are doing it and it allows us to stand back and not get so caught up in things but at this point the overlay simply disintegrates. Then, in its absence, one sees how that overlay not only created the world out there but also the sense of a self identity. When this overlay drops away, a world that had been hidden by that is immediately present. It&amp;#039;s also very raw - in that there is no separation between you and it. And that world is unexpected.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:01:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5006710</guid> <dc:creator>Chuck Kasmire</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-08T23:01:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4999202</link> <description>Hey Chuck, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your experience seems very familiar. For me it is hard to reproduce and it is the foremost reason why I have ever started a spiritual journey. Starting when young I would, as I lay down to sleep, start progressive relaxation, systematically from my toes to the head, My mother had taught me this one time when I was younger, I was a horrible nap taker. I would send out the intention to move a muscle, and/or relax a muscle, but not actually move any muscles, but lie perfectly still. From time to time one will find new pathways and new muscles that one was previously unaware. Then once at the top of the head, I would send the mind out as far as it would go. Mostly I would just fall asleep, but every once in a while , the &amp;#034;pulling&amp;#034; would start. It is , as if one were to have a soul, this would start to be &amp;#034;pulled&amp;#034; up and out. Anyway, not knowing what is going on, Fear and terror sets in, and it stops. I had always thought later this might be the start of OOBE, or was connected to the pull of the Full Moon or, well, who knew I was young.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Each time this has happened, I have tried to push the envelope farther, by being brave, that doesn&amp;#039;t really work. But the just observing with the equanimous mind was the key, no fear, just observe. The same skill to just &amp;#034;note&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway about a month ago, the &amp;#034;pulling&amp;#034; happened again, I was in Lion&amp;#039;s Pose, I let it happen, The best description is that the only phenomenon occurring is the existence of expansion, but super fast, like the Millineum Falcon&amp;#039;s jump to Hyperspace with just the sensation, no visuals. Then the thought arose &amp;#034;where am I &amp;#034; with that , I was aware of one of smallest tiniest pinpoints of light imaginable, a &amp;#034;million miles away&amp;#034;, then I was back, the body ,the mind ,the sense of self. I was like Hmmmm. So I closed my eyes , let go , and it happened again. There was no self in the experience upon reflection, when there was a self experiencing there was not the experience. Adding to as my memory comes together, after the &amp;#034;where am I &amp;#034; thought arose and when I saw the pinprick of light, I did have to &amp;#034;move&amp;#034; towards it with intention, and wasn&amp;#039;t exactly sure I would make it back.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So far as I can tell, this was Fifth Jhana. But, if it was Fifth Jhana, I do not see how one can have the experience and not have insights arise, thus dispelling any insight vs jhana debates.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, if that was not Fifth Jhana and I missed the use of the &amp;#034;Stillpoint&amp;#034;, Oops, Anyway, I am still assimilating the experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for being so open with your experiences.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;B</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Dec 2013 23:13:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4999202</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-07T23:13:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994954</link> <description>Hey everyone! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Been thinking, or rather thoughts have been arising, and since the house of the body is burning down, for all of us, it is time to start sharing thoughts, don&amp;#039;t know how close I am to what your discussing exactly so take it all with a grain of salt.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In another thread there was a discussion of the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta, basically Brahma-Baka, and Mara, so say that Brahma-Baka is infinite in one direction, (the Brahma planes) and say that Mara is infinite in the other direction (Mara&amp;#039;s realms), then the Buddha basically is unseen from both. And yeah, I know I am butchering the story up pretty good. So, the thoughts that arose were: that the Buddha is unseen by them because he has balanced out of their realms, Buddha being EXACTLY BALANCED between the realms, this way one can not be seen by Mara, because Buddha is not there, nor seen by Baka, he&amp;#039;s not there either. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But here is the catch, Existing in both directions simultaneously, perfectly balanced, neither one nor the other, and yet both. trying to express this, and the best I can come up with is a number line, below, the VOID would be the 0, yet the void is also encompassing of both.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;−∞ -----0------ ∞&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Though I suppose the Null point could be intersected by an infinite number of realities coming and going from all directions. But, I&amp;#039;m just a human, what do I know?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe picturing it this way, pluck a guitar string, and watch it vibrate, it moves up and down, then, putting two fingers on the string it comes to the complete stillpoint, cessation, now walk away, no one there to pluck the string and start it all up again, ever. Now I haven&amp;#039;t been able to do this, Sometimes I get the string to stop, and sometimes the mind starts playing the dueling banjoes, though not like it used to, which is why I know the N8path is real, it works .... I suppose it must somehow come down to Craving and its cessation, both the pleasurable wishes and the wishes to be away from the non-pleasurable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Pop Pie</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Dec 2013 07:03:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994954</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-07T07:03:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994925</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;triple think:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I read broadly, so I read all kinds of stuff. Chuck recently recommended Christian Science Monitor, I hope Chuck shows up in this thread, he seems suited to it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OK. I&amp;#039;ll start with my journey to the void. Hopefully this will come out clear as I will cobble together a few things I&amp;#039;ve written about this in order to get something together. Thanks to sawfoot who managed to turn e-dust into html I am able to recycle a description from an old thread which saves me from typing some. I wrote:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;In my case, I was practicing an internal chi gong, immersed in the body energy, when I became aware of a very pleasant energetic sensation. Awareness just sort of dropped ever deeper into this. I must have gone deep into the jhanas (warning: overloaded function!) - the mind became so still that there was no longer any sense of being at all - and then there was a sensation of something like my consciousness being sucked up through the neck of a bottle - it is this sensation that sort of brought me out of the &amp;#039;jhana nothingness&amp;#039;. Then consciousness exploded into a vastness - no me, no time, no space, no perceivable phenomena at all and yet a vast knowingness. In this I understood how humanity was trapped in their self-identities - like a prison. I was outside the prison - looking in and it was very very clear how samsara was constructed. Though I use the term &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; there was no I involved. After a while the sense of a universe appeared, then I reappeared - and fear with it, and I dropped back into the universe.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fleshing that out a bit: It was in March of 1994. I had been practicing micro-cosmic orbit and other non-movement types of chi-gong practices for 1 to two hours per day for maybe 6 weeks at this point. Over a week or two prior to this I had begun feeling the various points along the orbit open and connect together. Kind of felt like little jumper wires being connected point to point. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then I was sitting on my couch one day attending to the sort of stillness quality of the energy in the body - mostly torso. Didn&amp;#039;t know anything about jhana in those days but now I can say that it was at that point a first jhana in that my mental attention or focus of awareness was directed toward the pleasant sensations of energy in the body. I then became aware of a pleasant tingling sensation in the lower spine and there was a sensation of pea size bubbles that percolated up the spine one at a time and when they popped in my head there was a pleasant burst of energy there. My awareness was just drawn into the body - in a sense dropped down into the pleasant sensations so as to hang out with them. So at that point, dropping the mental attention and becoming absorbed in the body. From that point on I just seemed to have dropped deeper and deeper. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I sort of &amp;#039;came to&amp;#039; when a rushing/roaring sensation brought me back into awareness at which point I was aware that I had essentially stopped or ceased to be - the rushing/roaring sensation felt like my consciousness was being sucked up and out of me - maybe lasted a second or two and then awareness just exploded into vastness. But at that point there was no Chuck. No observer. No subject. Distinct quality of being outside of time and space. Aware nevertheless. It had a knowing quality - more like a vast super grocking - a grocking or illumination of itself. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And what was known in a sense is what is known in contrast to what had been. Metaphorically, it was like I had spent my entire life in a small one room cabin surrounded by all my things - ideas, memories, possessions, desires, etc covering the walls and ceiling and this is all I had ever known. Then one day I fall through one of the walls and find myself on a high mountain - it&amp;#039;s a beautiful day - and I can see forever. Looking back at my little cabin I can see that the walls were made of nothing more than all the things I had held onto as me and mine and nothing else - a prison of my own making - it very much had the sense of being a prison - that I was now free from. I have no idea how long it lasted. The experience burned into me deep. It fried every belief I had about who I was - about reality, the world, etc. Though I was back in my prison - I now knew it was a prison. The experience left a tiny opening - like a tiny whole in that cabin - in which the light/the vastness came through. Very subtle at first but always there when I looked for it. And that slowly expanded and deepened over time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The journey back out of that experience seemed to have started with an arising sense of &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; and the appearance of the universe - like a fuzzy ball of light - within that awareness and the knowledge that I was currently identified with a little body down inside the universe. So I made an intense effort to get back into that little thing and back I was. Heart rate and respiration almost non-existent. Went down on the floor and said over and over &amp;#034;What the hell was that&amp;#034;.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:50:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994925</guid> <dc:creator>Chuck Kasmire</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-07T06:50:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994921</link> <description>hi ALL&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fri. 06/12/13 23:23:00ish&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the ongoing interests of full disclosure, because it has been another couple long space-alien-ish days after many and because it doesn&amp;#039;t merit even finding the correct post in the appropriate thread at the moment, I will just post this quick related 4thpathish yet VOID unrelated note here for the time being. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am almost at the end of the three marathon weeks of transparency and sincerity I committed this little U body/body|mind\mind to enduring within the DO-U upon returning here to DhO. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Where it goes from here? - hopefully nobody noise. When the outflow/|\inflow attenuation finally returns to ) 0-|-0 ( .&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Tripleslam, triplethink and tripleops threads are still in business and wide open for fun and games on Sat. so as soon as I wake up from the latest major p.m. attempt to put this beast down tonight (this time with a half bottle of ( Wolftrap Red - looks promising ) I will be online fresh and ready for whatever may or may not occur at that point tomorrow in space/time. I did get a solid two hours of downtime last night so that was semi sweet and I&amp;#039;ll take whatever I can get.&lt;br /&gt;__________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have been observing a lot of very remote and distant but no less obvious telepathy-like psychosis-like internal stuff - divinish earish - demons in the other earish - not at all unfamiliar or unknown phenomena - lately that would come up for anyone who is making a spectacle of &amp;#039;their-selves&amp;#039; that is properly referred to here-abouts ( DhO ) as 10 fetter model 4th path stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is to say, anxiety, agitation and conceit. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I refer to this kind of faint background chitta-chatta, in the privacy of my own internal &amp;#039;cogitato potatoe&amp;#039; whenever it comes up by whatever new note seems most handy in the moment. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It could be anything for example: astral blowback or whatever comes to mind at the moment; peanut gallery, kangaroo courtroom drama queers, whatever... Jesus plays battleship with Buddha for my soul, you name it...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It isn&amp;#039;t new and was there in grade school as well, so no big whup, just saying&amp;#039; it has been noisier that way lately than a cotton berry bush in springtime.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Should die off &amp;#039;afore too very long I espec&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So fergettit and nighty night to all that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-------------------&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was starting a thread on another subject when I noticed this was what I was writing about in order to get it out of my head again and thought I may as well put it somewhere, because it is so obviously fourth path fetter model bullshit about as pure and raw as it gets.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it has the same pathology, whether it is in the head of a no account kid or politician or a movie star or some rising subculture guru or wherever this same pathology might show up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All I can say about this chitta-chatta is my response is, &amp;#034;is piss on it&amp;#034;. Until the steam dies baby.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That is to say, same old same old, attend fully and attend to fully - to one&amp;#039;s full capacity - in that moment, and then completely forget it and move on.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sort of an inside out pirate motto:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Give them everything - and take from them nothing.&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It ain&amp;#039;t worth the practice|practical time at all otherwise; 1. to attend, or 2. to attend to - at all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-triplethink</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:40:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4994921</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-07T06:40:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993816</link> <description>Post 14 12/06/13 As the fella holding the Bag, er sign or SIGNAGE or LOGOS for this er notITEM... The VOID...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: #FD0303"&gt;...OK | will chime in again here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2 Octaves later to repeat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;APPROACH the WORK of this SAGE and ANCIENT BELL WORK with the utmost CAUTION !!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...REVERENCE.. ..RESPECT ETC... _ _ _&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;ALSO&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...workers and majical creatures of all sorts may be all about very near by...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...so...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;easy&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Giant Leaps... are not baby steps... unless of course...&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;==&amp;gt;3}Bird0&amp;gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:26:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993816</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T22:26:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993504</link> <description>Thank you for sharing Rist. Indeed &amp;#039;perhaps&amp;#039;.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:36:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993504</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T21:36:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993208</link> <description>my try to try again and will change:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;void is an experience of no experience, in this void i am still outside of it. It should be given up, and not cling to it. Only then can be you=you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;when you become you 100% then there is no time(birth death of you) involved, then there is void + you, and that will hint that void isn&amp;#039;t empty, because there are others too who have gone this far.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To make more clear myself: &lt;br /&gt;False void is outside of us what allows other things to happen. When giving up this wrong view, we then automatically are &amp;#034;inside&amp;#034; the void(technically we haven&amp;#039;t been outside but have hold our own copy of it(chakra system)). So when i try to get back to void like i tried before i can&amp;#039;t anymore. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We don&amp;#039;t die once we get inside because this thought have to end first what caused the birth:&lt;br /&gt;thought consists of:&lt;br /&gt;7th chakra(false void)&lt;br /&gt;6th chakra (false mind)&lt;br /&gt;5th chakra (false vibration/creation)&lt;br /&gt;4th (false self)&lt;br /&gt;3th (false feelings)&lt;br /&gt;2th(false desires)&lt;br /&gt;1th(false needs)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and this chakra system is inside false world and false universe, created by false god(sub/unconsciousness).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;perhaps</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:51:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4993208</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T20:51:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4991536</link> <description>Okay guys, now we&amp;#039;re talkin&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(Btw, Nikolai, what you describe with the &amp;#034;nail/pin bed&amp;#034; sounds like how I understand the signless/themeless concentration.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is this thing about&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;the &amp;#039;body&amp;#039; &amp;#039;witnesses&amp;#039; the absence of the &amp;#039;consciously percipient mind&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do tell more, much more.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have some ideas... I may be way off... and that might be a good thing. Enjoy:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The six sense spheres are, given conditions (like, say, ignorance), entangled. They are configured such that they seem to converge upon the five (grasping) aggregates. An interaction is taking place, a mingling, mixing, a cocktail of the spheres, giving rise to the perceptual equivalence of chemical reactions, creating new (perceptual) compounds/layers, like, say, the twelve links.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In a figurative sense, the six sense spheres of contact are bound up, held together by a linchpin, a central plug. The plug is probably ignorance (of the nature of percipience).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think, maybe, possibly, the cessation of this coming-together and overlapping of the spheres, the unplugging of the linchpin, is nirvana without residue.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t have so much more to say, except a little musing on what nirvana without residue would be like. Try wrapping your brain around this&amp;#x2014;it might have a good effect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The six sense spheres would occur completely free-standing, cut off, independent. Each sphere would be, and I mean this quite literally, its own universe, realm, dimension&amp;#x2014;sphere, d&amp;#039;uh&amp;#x2014;not connected or related, or even relevant, in any way to the other spheres.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you measure a sight purely by another sight? Can you measure a sound purely by another sound? I think not. The spheres are, in (reference to) themselves, immeasurable (or rather, unmeasured), boundless.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There would be no consciousness as such&amp;#x2014;or, more accurately, no self-consciousness. Clarity or perceptiveness still pertains&amp;#x2014;in fact, that&amp;#039;s all there is now; radiant wisdom&amp;#x2014;but this after it went entirely out momentarily, demonstrating its ill-suitedness as the basis for the convergence of the spheres. Here now, there is no &amp;#034;being aware that one is aware&amp;#034;, i.e. self-consciousness (all consciousness is self-consciousness, no consciousness is not self-consciousness). &amp;#034;Who&amp;#034; would that one be, that is aware? What a strange distortion that would be considering six fully disconnected spheres of immeasurable thusness. Right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Phew!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another stab:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The signs you guys are talking about&amp;#x2014;there should be three of them as far as I understand&amp;#x2014;are to be used as absorptions. You completely absorb mind-consciousness in either of them&amp;#x2014;literally suck in/out the mind from the incessant mingling, mixing with the other spheres.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The visual sphere will be absorbed in its thusness, becoming unconscious, no contact occurs, meaning the trichotomy of eye, eye-conciousness and form cease.&lt;br /&gt;The auditory sphere will be absorbed in its thusness, becoming unconscious, no contact occurs, meaning the trichotomy of ear, ear-conciousness and sound cease.&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;The mental sphere will be absorbed in either of the signs, becoming unconscious, no contact occurs, meaning the trichotomy of mind, mind-conciousness and thoughts cease.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Double phew!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For those who recoiled in terror upon reading that one becomes &amp;#034;unconscious&amp;#034;: It&amp;#039;s not what you think it is. In high risk of sounding new-agey, being (self-)&amp;#034;conscious&amp;#034; is a much, much lower vibration than not. Radiant, vivid, vibrant, boundless&amp;#x2014;that&amp;#039;s what &amp;#034;unconsciousness&amp;#034; is like.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe, possibly.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:20:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4991536</guid> <dc:creator>Stian Gudmundsen Høiland</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T15:20:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4991289</link> <description>&lt;span style="color: #FA0000"&gt;VOID STATION - Post 10 - VOID LOGOS - THE VOID &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_________________&lt;br /&gt;06 /12 /13&lt;br /&gt;_________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;LAST STOP ? Is It Better To Burn Out Or To Fade Away ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #D2B605"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does The Golden Silence Implode As A Critical Mass ? Or ? Does It Explode As A Perfected Percipient Light&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thesis, Confabs &amp;amp; Speculations&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;w/footnotes from: Gnomes, Dragons, Wizards, Sages, Scholars and Saints&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;to follow, ongoing / _ _ _</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:06:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4991289</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T12:06:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990786</link> <description>He could always explain the relevance of it or amend it to anything useful, y&amp;#039;know, the more I think about it the more I like Bagpuss short answer, there is probably only three ways the Body / Body|Mind \ Mind can represent the VOID and none of them would be quite the complete picture alone. So the VOID in and of itself being able to don a Raiment does seem difficult unless you consider the body/body|mind\mind to be a kind of triple robe. In which case Bagpus can understand this standing on his head, which makes him way cool ( either way good one Bagpuss - how&amp;#039;s thangs back Gnome? ) so long as you are comfortable describing it this way or whatever it is you mean is more or less this or something even more profound or something...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In any case&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;pithy that&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thx&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-triplethinka</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:11:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990786</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T10:11:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990777</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bagpuss The Gnome:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The emperor has no clothes on.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Bagpuss, can you please elaborate on why you posted this? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The phrase &amp;#034;emperor&amp;#039;s new clothes&amp;#034; has become an idiom about logical fallacies.[28] The story may be explained by pluralistic ignorance. The story is about a situation where &amp;#034;no one believes, but everyone believes that everyone else believes. Or alternatively, everyone is ignorant to whether the Emperor has clothes on or not, but believes that everyone else is not ignorant.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:51:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990777</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:51:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990773</link> <description>[quote=&lt;span style="color: #FF0303"&gt;Bagpuss&lt;/span&gt; The Gnome]The emperor has no clothes on.why would a see through troll even give a spit?________________________________________________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well Nick, I suppose we should give Bagpuss a moment to, compose... himself.&lt;br /&gt;_____________________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&amp;gt; VOID STATION =&amp;gt; the Deathless&lt;br /&gt;12/6/13 4:52 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome. &lt;br /&gt;___________________________________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;Amended at this date/time stamp ( 12/06/13 15:12:42 local ) to: Well Nick, obviously Gnomes are serious wits, more professional about these things than I am, I tend to the fast code hack and then go back to polishing the turds. Clearly beneath the likes of a Gnostic Gnome of course. So, what I should have said would have been more like, &amp;#034;Eeh Gads, a Gnome of all things! Here at the very gates of Void Station! Do tell us Great Gnome how does the ALL appear from the view point of the Great VOID... it(?)sef&amp;#039; &amp;#034; or some such, and then bowed widely and low in hopes of some such answer. &lt;br /&gt;Perhaps, having blown it so badly with this great being, we now shall never know.../|\.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;___________________________________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;[ Amended: to add: My mistake Sir|Madam; &lt;br /&gt;No apparent relation to the troll, so easily and much maligned, these days. ?/_ _ _ . &lt;br /&gt;Also, clearly, this would be your area of particular expertise. /// ] &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;footnotes: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;gnome (n.) &amp;#034;dwarf-like earth-dwelling spirit,&amp;#034; 1712, from French gnome, from Modern Latin gnomus, used 16c. in a treatise by Paracelsus, who gave the name pigmaei or gnomi to elemental earth beings, possibly from Greek *genomos &amp;#034;earth-dweller&amp;#034; (cf. thalassonomos &amp;#034;inhabitant of the sea&amp;#034;). A less-likely suggestion is that Paracelsus based it on the homonym that means &amp;#034;intelligence&amp;#034; (preserved in gnomic). Popular in children&amp;#039;s literature 19c. as a name for red-capped German and Swiss folklore dwarfs. Garden figurines first imported to England late 1860s from Germany.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;gnomic (adj.) &amp;#034;&lt;span style="color: #FF0303"&gt;full of instructive sayings&lt;/span&gt;,&amp;#034; 1815, from French gnomique (18c.) and directly from Late Latin gnomicus &amp;#034;concerned with maxims, didactic,&amp;#034; from Greek gnomikos, from gnome &amp;#034;thought, opinion, maxim, intelligence,&amp;#034; from root of gignoskein &amp;#034;to come to know&amp;#034; (see gnostic). English gnome meant &amp;#034;short, pithy statement of general truth&amp;#034; (1570s). Gnomical is attested from 1610s.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;gnomish (adj.) 1822, from gnome + -ish. Related: Gnomishly; gnomishness.&lt;br /&gt;wight (n.) Old English wiht &amp;#034;living being, creature,&amp;#034; from Proto-Germanic *wekhtiz (cf. Old Saxon wiht &amp;#034;thing, demon,&amp;#034; Dutch wicht &amp;#034;a little child,&amp;#034; Old High German wiht &amp;#034;thing, creature, demon,&amp;#034; German Wicht &amp;#034;creature, infant,&amp;#034; Old Norse vettr &amp;#034;thing, creature,&amp;#034; Swedish vätte &amp;#034;spirit of the earth, gnome,&amp;#034; Gothic waihts &amp;#034;something&amp;#034;). The only apparent cognate outside Germanic is Old Church Slavonic vešti &amp;#034;a thing.&amp;#034; Not related to the Isle of Wight, which is from Latin Vectis (c.150), originally Celtic, possibly meaning &amp;#034;place of the division.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lifted from: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;etymonline&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;allowed_in_frame&amp;#x3d;0&amp;#x26;search&amp;#x3d;gnome&amp;#x26;searchmode&amp;#x3d;none"&gt;Gnome&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;______________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think, possibly, Bagpuss views the &amp;#039;emperor&amp;#039; the way one might view &amp;#039;our milky way galaxy&amp;#039; as &amp;#039;that which rules our existence&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How the galaxy might be viewed as unclothed as opposed to magnificently clothed eludes me, however if viewed in reverse, perhaps the way one who sees nothing might view something, then the voidness is mistaken for the apparent as opposed to the voidness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anywho, suppose the voidness of the galaxy were likened to a huge black hole at the core of a percipient galaxy, say one called &amp;#034;Milky Way&amp;#034; or one called &amp;#034;Mt. Meru&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then say the &amp;#039;clothing&amp;#039; is the raiment of stars and planets arrayed about that center which has a superdense cluster of tightly packed stars at the core which put a &amp;#039;skin&amp;#039; on the black hole or void at the center. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We might consider each superdense star to be one Brilliant Arahant or VOID inclined in a group around one Buddha or massive black hole or PERFECTED VOID.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;|||//////////////////|||O|||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|||&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;or not...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well met Sir|Madame / Gnome.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;gt;)==)3Bird0&amp;gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:50:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990773</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:50:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990768</link> <description>Nathan asked me: so how do i go about trying to eradicate anxiety, agitation and conceit?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well, the way i go about it is first identifying the moments when those three things arise. And as far as I can see they arise as explained above with this nail/pin bed &lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;thedesignschool&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;de7300designresearchgroupg&amp;#x2f;files&amp;#x2f;hand-impression&amp;#x2e;jpg" /&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a movement initiated by a lightning fast urge and as there is movement there is shape given to a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039; which could be an idea, a thought, an image, an interpretation, a sensation in a localised area, that localised area, a body, a &amp;#039;part&amp;#039; of a &amp;#039;body&amp;#039;, notions of &amp;#039;location&amp;#039; and having &amp;#039;presence&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;me-ness&amp;#039;, a feeling tone assigned to a localised &amp;#039;sensation&amp;#039; etc etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anxiety arises as a compounding of a variety of &amp;#039;things&amp;#039; which could be a sensation with an unpleasant feeling tone assigned to it, a thought or thought loop or mental posture of shaking/aversion, an image of that which seems to trigger anxiety (an exam to do for example). Agitation and conceit will also have &amp;#039;things&amp;#039; compounding as well. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So thus recognising these compoundings of anxiety, agitation and conceit, I go about inclining away from their habitual creation by inclining the mind towards their cessation, by inclining towards cessation and the complete resting of the nail/pin bed, by deciding to ignore those objects being habitually created and leaning/inclining/turning away from the entire movement of mind towards the ceasing of that movement. Something Chuck onc shared on KFD stuck with me. It&amp;#039;s like a peaceful serene lake that I&amp;#039;m standing with my back towards. I know it is there but if I turn towards it it dissappears. I incline the mind towards that lake without look at it so to speak. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I see this as stripping the compounding of agitation, anxiety and conceit of their vital supports again and again, depleting them of their fuel. It seems to be doing something positive to my brain.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:49:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990768</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:49:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990764</link> <description>The emperor has no clothes on.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:44:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990764</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:44:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990734</link> <description>One Narrative re: The Most Pleasant Abiding&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;ok Nick;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I want to do the themes here justice and the day is growing long, so just another quick note to say this will take time and any other people with an actual thought on the three signs for nibbana are welcome to participate or people with any info on how the Mahayana might approach this subject of the Void or Emptiness and so on. This is an important area for me and if it is just going to be a troll fest then my time at DhO is truly ### in hours.&lt;br /&gt;______________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I pointed at the nested set math because one way to look at this may be to consider the thread of one existence over imponderable long periods of universal time as an evolution towards something. It would be a huge waste to loose that investment simply from the POV of a UNIVERSAL element that might be referred to as Percipience.&lt;br /&gt;So, what might the universe do with such a full grown one?&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps give it license to &amp;#039;give birth to another Universe.&lt;br /&gt;or &lt;br /&gt;as I already cautioned&lt;br /&gt;perhaps simply recycle it some other way&lt;br /&gt;anywho&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Probably best to begin my input with a narrative so I am composing that and will post it within the hour Ok?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For simplicity&amp;#039;s sake, lately, I have been considering the Universe to be something of a Multiverse.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When it comes to speculation about the entire universe of which even Earth is such a small part, it is best to put humility first for the purposes of day to day mortal life. However that does not mean that people, human beings should not consider all sorts of speculative or imaginative questions. It has proven widely useful to do so.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I will explain some details about my life and my speculations and I will attempt to put this in a very human and ordinary lifetime, which in many ways my life has been, and in some ways my life has not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, as for speculative models and theories of what or how this universe actually might be considered everyone can simply read or not as they like, science fiction and speculative fiction, physics, quantum physics, string theory, set theory, the victoria secret catalog, whatever…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I read broadly, so I read all kinds of stuff. Chuck recently recommended Christian Science Monitor, I hope Chuck shows up in this thread, he seems suited to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, to begin my narrative I will begin at the beginning of this being-ness and quickly bring us up to the 21st century and where I am at today.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I recall I was born in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada in 1964 to a wonderful couple who were young at that time, my father was 30 years old and still in university.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At that time they spoke Czeck in the home which I am only now revitalizing as I now live with them again in their retirement. It is difficult for me to remember those years because in public school I began to rely on English and so the first four years are visually not too bad but the linguistic aspect and the vocal cues are missing. This should improve now in a year or two.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At the age of six months my father and mother moved to Minneapolis St. Paul in order for my father to attend Bethel College. At the age of about 4.5 we moved back to Winnipeg and my father took up his first pastorate at a local church and we lived there until I was about 13. I remember seeing Star Wars in Winnipeg the year we left and that was Awesome dudes, dudettes, and I was there on opening day at the Odeon Theatre! So cool, Star Wars was my first LP, wore it out!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At the age of 13 we moved again to Prince Albert, SK which proved difficult for me but was a small city in Northern Saskatchewan where I underwent many… changes…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The key one for this discussion was the discovery, at about age 14, of the Buddha in a small book on his life story and a thin tract on meditation, by (I think) Lawrence LeShan entitled &amp;#034;Meditation&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I read it and sat down on the floor to meditate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I immediately noticed that my back was sore and decided to recline on my back on top of my bed. I lay there and closed my eyes breathing as slowly and for as long as I could in and out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I decided I would not move and see if I could watch my body go to sleep while I was entirely conscious...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I lay there my body did seem to be slipping into a sleep-like state but I could tell that I was still very alert and conscious and so one of the first things I thought to examine was whether or not consciousness or the mind was only in one spot at a time or if it was everywhere at the same time in the body. So as I lay there I examined this and observed that it appeared to be everywhere that the body was.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That noted I went on in my warm full bodied deep slow breathing way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I then soon noted that my body was quite numb and warm and I assumed that for all practical purposes it was more or less going to sleep. The next thing I observed was that as I was breathing slow and deep the body seemed to be internally sort of glowing with a soft bright white light. I decided to allow the breath to resume a more normal kind of resting condition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At the time I was in very good condition, I was swimming for an hour each morning at the high school pool before the days classes. The body continued to breath deep and slow but as it normally did or does.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The bright white light became more attractive and joyful and at this point the process is very much as Sariputta describes in his account of moving up through the Jhana and into &amp;#034;the Deathless&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;the Voidness&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So this brings us to my first encounter with the Deathless. This is the example I always use because this was the first such for me, in this life, and since then I have become more familiar or less depending on how one views familiarity or familiar relationships.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I do not know how long I was in &amp;#034;the Deathless&amp;#034; and had not even expected to arrive there I will set that aside.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I abided in that, in that,,, anyways a question arose in the mind or in the body, outside of that, and this question, from that pov was sort of like &amp;#039;Whhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa… ……….. ….. …. .. .. &amp;gt;0&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The sensation, from that incomprehensible point of view, was like someone attaching a talking vacuum cleaner to that space and it felt like that perfectly sweet place was being sucked back out into the rest of me…………&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&amp;lt;&lt;br /&gt;as percipience returned the first thing noted was a huge rush of bliss, like nothing I had ever felt before. It was like having that brilliant bright light of the whole body explode in the pure darkness of midday from one point in my pitch black basement bedroom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;gt;?sound familiar?&amp;lt; = the sign for the or the Logos of the Void&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then cognition became possible again and the whole experience became something I was conscious of, that is to say following consciousness from its presence as a field of percipience throughout the entire body all the way &amp;#039;in&amp;#039; to its complete disappearance, that occurring for some time, and then whatever was on the outside becoming alarmed about the absent occupant or whatever that was that vanished entirely and was quite content to stay that way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After getting over that strong but brief explosion of joy and light I slowly sat up and mused on what happened for…&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;oh, about 35 more years so far.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We are now much more familiar and good company when no one else is around.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So that brings us up to this century and the DhO.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Where we are all musing together about what all of this might be, what it may mean and the implications of all of these sorts of things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;====&lt;br /&gt;So that is my deathless narrative and I agree with Sariputta that it is THE &amp;#039;MOST PLEASANT ABIDING&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;?/|||\0&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;::;=&amp;gt;3Bird&amp;gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:36:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990734</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:36:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990386</link> <description>Nathan,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you elaborate on the significance of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Nested_set_model"&gt;nested sets and theory&lt;/a&gt; and their relation to the deathless or whatever this thread wishes to be about?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:33:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4990386</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:33:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4988084</link> <description>Some interesting and possibly related quotes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;[Anuruddha &amp;amp; Sariputta discuss meditation]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anuruddha: “Brother Sariputta with the divine eye, which is clarified and supernormal, I am able to perceive a thousandfold world system. My energy is strong and inflexible; my remembrance is alert and unforgetful; my body is calmed and unexcited; my mind is collected and unified. Yet my mind is still not freed, without clinging, from the defiling taints (asava).”&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thereupon Sariputta replied: “When you think, brother Anuruddha, that with your divine eye you can perceive a thousandfold world system, that is self-conceit in you. When you think of your strenuous energy, your alert mindfulness, your calmed body and your concentrated mind, that is agitation in you. When you think that your mind is still not liberated from the cankers, that makes for scruples in you. It will be good if the revered Anuruddha would discard these three things, would not pay attention to them and would instead direct his mind towards the Deathless-element (Nibbana).”&lt;br /&gt;Having heard Sariputta’s advice, Anuruddha again resorted to solitude and earnestly applied himself to the removal of those three obstructions within his mind (AN 3:128), more: Wheel 262, BPS.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;bps&amp;#x2e;lk&amp;#x2f;olib&amp;#x2f;wh&amp;#x2f;wh362-p&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh362-p.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It has already been stated that phalasamapatti (fruition attainment) first begins to occur when arising from nirodhasamapatti. This phalasamapatti being free from raga (passion), etc., it is also called suññata(the Void). As it is free of ræga-nimitta (one of the attributes of sentient existence), it is also known as animitta. Moreover, as it is free from passionate desire such as raga, etc., it is also called appanihita. As such, phassa which is also included in this samapatti is also known as suññata, animitta and appanihita. As phassa (contact) takes place by dwelling upon Nibbana, which is known as suññata (the Void), animitta (the Unconditioned), and appanithta (freedom from longing or desire), with attentive consciousness of mind, it is called suññata, etc. The answer, therefore, is that the three kinds of phassa, viz: suññataphassa, animittaphassa and appanihitaphassa first begin to take place. &lt;br /&gt;For better understanding, it may be stated that when arising from nirodhasamæpatti,contact takes place with suññata-nibbana, a condition devoid of kilesa-sankhara to which the mind has been directed as its sense-object. Contact is also made with animitta-nibbana which is devoid of or free from any sign of nimitta. Then comes mere awareness of contact with appanihita-nibbana, a condition free from vehement desire, which is the sense object that has been contemplated.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammaweb&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;mahasi&amp;#x2f;book&amp;#x2f;Mahasi_Sayadaw_Culavedalla_Sutta&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.dhammaweb.net/mahasi/book/Mahasi_Sayadaw_Culavedalla_Sutta.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception &amp;amp; feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception &amp;amp; feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, &amp;amp; contact with the undirected.&amp;#034;[2] &lt;br /&gt;FOOTNOTE: &lt;br /&gt;[2]Emptiness, the signless, &amp;amp; the undirected are names for a state of concentration that lies on the threshold of Unbinding. They differ only in how they are approached. According to the commentary, they color one&amp;#039;s first apprehension of Unbinding: a meditator who has been focusing on the theme of inconstancy will first apprehend Unbinding as signless; one who has been focusing on the theme of stress will first apprehend it as undirected; one who has been focusing on the theme of not-self will first apprehend it as emptiness. &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2f;mn&amp;#x2e;044&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:09:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4988084</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:09:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4988025</link> <description>I have been finding this passage to be of inspiration of late. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;[Anuruddha &amp;amp; Sariputta discuss meditation]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anuruddha: “Brother Sariputta with the divine eye, which is clarified and supernormal, I am able to perceive a thousandfold world system. My energy is strong and inflexible; my remembrance is alert and unforgetful; my body is calmed and unexcited; my mind is collected and unified. Yet my mind is still not freed, without clinging, from the defiling taints (asava).”&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thereupon Sariputta replied: “When you think, brother Anuruddha, that with your divine eye you can perceive a thousandfold world system, that is self-conceit in you. When you think of your strenuous energy, your alert mindfulness, your calmed body and your concentrated mind, that is agitation in you. When you think that your mind is still not liberated from the cankers, that makes for scruples in you. It will be good if the revered Anuruddha would discard these three things, would not pay attention to them and would instead direct his mind towards the Deathless-element (Nibbana).”&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Having heard Sariputta’s advice, Anuruddha again resorted to solitude and earnestly applied himself to the removal of those three obstructions within his mind (AN 3:128), more: Wheel 262, BPS.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And have been exploring ways to go about it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One way is to see how there is a force or habitual movement of mind to move and at the same time create shapes and form for aspects of experience, like a sensation in the chest, a thought/s, an image, an object to desire, and object to avert from. It&amp;#039;s like the field of experience is a one of these &lt;img src="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;encrypted-tbn3&amp;#x2e;gstatic&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;images&amp;#x3f;q&amp;#x3d;tbn&amp;#x3a;ANd9GcQTAzDGIPTcTW5Dr_Lom7gksRLPqqJ93ufbfTShbTWnqL8C5TiG" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and the mind moves and when it moves it gives shape and this at the same time creates some &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039;, that is purely mental and overlays the field of experience which would simply be a flat bed of nails without that movement. So I observe this movement to create and give shape to &amp;#039;objects&amp;#039; of mind. And when this is done, they lose some aspect of their continuance, something about the looking at zaps the movement of momentum. And that bed of nails will exhibit sublter movements that don&amp;#039;t give full shape to some &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039;. Like a half &amp;#039;object&amp;#039; that as soon as it arises sinks back down and the nail bed is flat again.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When doing this, I will recall the cessations of the senses (the infamous blip) although the middle of the blip , I really don&amp;#039;t remember what it is like cos the whole harddrive shuts down for that blip. But for some reason just recalling how it was a moment of shutdown sort of inclines the mind away from those mental movements even more and thenthe mind stops, though it is not a shutdown of the senses. It is simply the mind not making &amp;#039;objects&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this make any sense? I thought I had a question, I really don&amp;#039;t. I think I&amp;#039;m just going with the flow or rather there are fingers typing bythemslves on the keyboard and this interaction may trigger something useful for me, you or someone elese. Who knows? This practice has been makign it very obvious that those movements of mind are very habitual, and seem to come from some eternal pit of past habitual movements building upon eachother. And yet, it&amp;#039;s so nice to incline away from it all. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anwhoo,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m rambling, or rather my two fingered typing is rambling. This current baseline although seen as normal these days by myself, alccimatised, would perhaps be perceived as being on LSD by someone just borrowing it for a few moments. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick, there ya go. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A question just arose: How do you relate to the notion of &amp;#039;inclining towards the deathless&amp;#039; in your own practice? PM me if this is too sensitive for public discussion.&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;triple think:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;hi Nick,&lt;br /&gt;Good ramble, for this thread any-who. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah, I got a lot of comments like that before I studied what actors do more carefully, via the abundant source materials.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I think I can &amp;#039;represent&amp;#039; more appropriately. If I understand correctly you are a teacher and have effectively been studying the same sort of skill sets in another way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, yeah, be-ing useful is work, and not always completely successful but we do what we can right?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Indeed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve had a rough road, so if anyone feels they are an arahant when they are actually a stream entrant or what have you then consider my story a &amp;#034;don&amp;#039;t let this happen to you story&amp;#034; and make every effort to get to a solid 3 on the scale. That takes you to a &amp;#039;very magical place&amp;#039; if my experience is representative of that. If I am, as seems more likely, a 2.5-3 then I don&amp;#039;t have much work to do to be a 3, with some adjustment and should not have to do it in this realm in any case, so this then is more or less my last chance to put this all on the record for the benefit of others.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I emphatically deny being an &amp;#039;arahant&amp;#039; as I don&amp;#039;t feel the urge to run with the idea that I&amp;#039;m &amp;#039;done&amp;#039; with the flow of becoming (outflows and inflows) . As I don&amp;#039;t think i am. And I feel not claiming this and that helps practice wise as it leaves the field of experience unshaped by terminolgies that can actually shape it...oh, I&amp;#039;m this and I&amp;#039;m that, thus the nail bed gets pushed up and a &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039; is born. I&amp;#039;m on a path, that is for sure. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Yeah, I got a lot of &amp;#034;Hey Smiley&amp;#034; comments or &amp;#034;Does he ever come down&amp;#034; comments and so on, a lot of friction because of indefatigable joy and love pouring out of me a lot of the time. Also, focus was always close to 100 percent for me, so jhana is something I avoid because it pumps up the &amp;#039;majic for me&amp;#039; big time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My conditioning inclines this mind/body organism to have much curiosity for the &amp;#039;majic time&amp;#039; though it would appear I have little urge to follow through on it and would rather it just happen in and of itself without an attempt for it to happen. We ad an email exchange about this awhile back and I just can&amp;#039;t seem to gather momentum and motivation to do something about the curiosity for it all. Meh! More inclined towards a flat nail bed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So I keep the mix on the dry side, if possible. But I get a lot of psychic/psychedelic bleed through non-the-less, and I pick up on a lot that people in general miss.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lucky you! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lets do an inclining towards the deathless thread Nick, if you are game, you begin and I will follow your lead on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Done!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;For starters, I simply take the &amp;#039;sign&amp;#039; after the &amp;#039;blip&amp;#039; and off I go....&lt;br /&gt;So that is whatever is perceived during the &amp;#039;bliss wave&amp;#039; immediately after the blip. I like &amp;#034;Void Logos&amp;#034; for bliss wave.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not sure why it appears, suspect that the &amp;#039;body&amp;#039; &amp;#039;witnesses&amp;#039; the absence of the &amp;#039;consciously percipient mind&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thots?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Added:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the first approach to Daniel I attempted to describe the sign to Daniel as sukkha and unchanging and mistook it for the void.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since then I have only been able to come closer to agreement with him that it is not the Void but rather the bodies response to the Void.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I would say the Logos, of the body, for me is as said, Pure Sukkha and Pure Permanence. The actual void, is.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who the heck could know? Game over?______________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thots?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cool. In think it is the bdoy&amp;#039;s respones aswell. But there is soemthing about inclining towards it without the blip pccuring that does something to the movements I have been talking about. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My current set up:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1/ recognise the movements of mind cutting up and segregating, sectioning out bringing forward aspects of experiences and ignoring other aspects, and recgnise that there are gaps in between where the nail bed flattens. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2/ incline towards cessation by simply deciding, &amp;#034;I incline towards cessation&amp;#034; while at the same time paying attention to the entire field of experience as a flat bed of nails which will then lose that flatness when the mind moves to take or give shape to an &amp;#039;object&amp;#039; to then react towards (by flatness I mean lose their unrippled, unsegregated and uncut entirety of experience, the entire field of it-all the senses at once). If any desire crops up for cessation, i recognise it as simply another nail bed movement taking the shape of a localised area of passionate sensations in the chest, coupled with a slight thought of want of oblivion, more nail bed shapes, that when seen for what they are, fall back down. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3/ I also remind the mind to simply &amp;#039;ignore&amp;#039; the objects being created and taken up by those nailbed movements and move towards cessation y simply inclining but at times also by , and this part is very hard to describe without it not describing it well, that middle of the blip, the void perhaps, is the objectless object. Hmmmm, maybe, maybe not. I&amp;#039;ll let that be the explanation for now. it may change later. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, when i do this long enough, eventually it all stops, and it feels like it unravels a little bit more of this bundle of habitual lunging. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;open to critiques, ideas, queries and whatnot..&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:06:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4988025</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T09:06:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Inclining towards = VOID LOGOS =&gt; VOID STATION =&gt; the Deathless</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4987935</link> <description>Post 1- VOID LOGOS / VOID - Thread Initiated 06 / 12 / 13&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;Links:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;gunaratana&amp;#x2f;wheel351&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x23;ch5&amp;#x2e;4"&gt;The Jhanic Level of the Path and Fruit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;________________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #FA0303"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;If you are a pre 1 and known 0. (see &amp;#039;developmental models&amp;#039; for &amp;#039;enlightenment&amp;#039; ...01234...)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regarding the Immediate, short, medium &amp;amp; long term implications, for you and for your life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;NO &amp;#039;OTHER BEING(S)&amp;#039; &lt;br /&gt;can really assure you or re-assure you about how a path such as this path will arise, persist, change, or disappear &lt;br /&gt;EXCEPT YOU, FOR YOUR-&amp;#039;SELF&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;FOR YOU&amp;#039;.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not that this need be seen to be a bad thing, nor seen to be a good thing, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;only that &lt;span style="font-size: 48px"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&amp;#039;YOU&amp;#039; are &amp;#039;SUCH&amp;#039; and this &amp;#039;PATH&amp;#039; is &amp;#039;THUS&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Disclaimer:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All ULTIMATE outcomes post 1 are presently more or less &amp;#039;specifically&amp;#039; &amp;#039;undetermined&amp;#039; or at a minimum &amp;#039;contested&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are a lot of &amp;#034;warnings about the, so called, &amp;#039;&amp;#039;dark night&amp;#034; however this is where all of the fear is almost always oriented due to &amp;#039;ignorance&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;delusion&amp;#039; so, inform yourself, well and thoroughly, BEFOREHAND.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nothing can be said with 100 % certainty about post 4 existence without a study which will postdate the existence of the presently ongoing and sentient UNIVERSE, IN ITS ENTIRETY or the DEATH OF THE PRESENT ALL, nor will it be, by anyone short of a SAMASAMBUDDHA, the last of which merely referred to this as THE DEATHLESS.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The deathless may simply mean the end of birth. ie. THE END.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;or&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It may not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;triplethinking&lt;/u&gt;, may still not be enough thinkin&amp;#039; on this one.&lt;br /&gt;________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For those quite certain they are beyond the point of Know Return, we&amp;#039;d best &amp;#039;incline&amp;#039; to this &amp;#039;working&amp;#039; cautiously. In the interests of ALL humanity, we&amp;#039;d best do ALL we CAN to Know ALL WE CAN.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_____________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The 8FNP says it is good, in the end.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am inclined to agree, probably good.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This would perhaps lead one to conclude the Mahayana are on to something............&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or maybe not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Supposing the Deathless = Mastery over Death and ongoing-ness regardless of conditions, then this would perhaps be a good thing, if, that is a good thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have begun a study on this in the Tipitaka and so far it also includes the OT book of Genesis, I take one verse a day and reflect on it. That has been instructive together with whatever Mahayana I have to hand and the Tipitaka.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope at least some others here, with experience, and scholarship in this area will participate in this &amp;#039;ongoing(?)&amp;#039; study.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Should be........... interesting.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2013 08:46:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4987935</guid> <dc:creator>triple think</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-12-06T08:46:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What am I missing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4906922</link> <description>Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks so much for the perspective, instructions and encouragement! I will certainly keep at it! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, since this is the first time we&amp;#039;ve interacted directly, I want to offer a very heartfelt thank you for your work on the dark night. It&amp;#039;s such a profound service and I hope we&amp;#039;ll see the day when this information is available to everyone before they set foot on their first retreat!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All the best,&lt;br /&gt;Avi</description> <pubDate>Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:04:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4906922</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-21T03:04:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What am I missing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4906412</link> <description>Yeah, that turtles all the way down thing is a really common frustration even amid all the cool stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is not quite turtles all the way down, in that the fractal, while really vast and frustratingly complex for some, is Not infinite, meaning that you can actually uncover all the structures and get fluent and clear enough about all the patterns and basic aspects and habituate them self-liberating and self-untangling such that the center untangles and stays untangled eventually, and it is just a question of learning the same old lessons again and again and again for new layers as they come up, new subtle dualities, new turtles, and finally, after doing this way, way more times than you think you should have to (for most people), all turtles realize they are just the turtles, and not the Observer Turtles, not the Controller Turtles, not the Turtles of Duality, and the whole things does flip over finally and the field is just simply the field all the way through, just empty, transient, causal, non-dual turtles all the way down, so just keep at it and have fun and settle in and revel in the subtleties and keep gently inquiring about the core processes, such as what is inquiry, what is effort, what is a mood, what is questioning, what is subtle fear, what is subtle anticipation, what subtle habits are there that presume this is not it, that separate out things in time or progress from this moment or whatever, as eventually they are all seen through if you just keep at it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This space integrates with itself, settles into itself, achieves its timeless, synchronized 1:1 parity with itself, meaning simply is, simply happens, simply untangled, simply clear, simply effortless, simply natural.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The &amp;#034;see through all layers&amp;#034; paradigm must merge with the &amp;#034;space integrates with itself naturally and settles into itself&amp;#034; paradigm for the perceptual convergence to realize its completeness.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 21 Nov 2013 00:58:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4906412</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-21T00:58:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What am I missing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4905105</link> <description>Okay, so following instructions on here I started investigating space and the sense of the distance between subject and object. This led to some cool stuff happening. Like A&amp;amp;P experiences that filled the whole area of space around my body with fractally cascading explosions. For a while, I began to perceive how my mind was constantly shooting out little lines of mental sensation between my body and anything else in order to create a sense of separateness. Eventually, I was able to dissolve these in real time in daily life. After this, whenever I fully dissolve an object into impermanence it expands beyond my body to fill the whole space bubble around me, which is pretty interesting. Two nights ago, I did the taste of chocolate, and it became a whole orbital solar system of chocolate taste sensations. Very unusual!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then I started becoming aware of a basic structure of centre-periphery. I started seeing how this basic structure permeates all my experiences. It’s like there’s a little ball in the middle orbited by a big sphere or torus. I took up this structure as a vipassana object, and it revealed impermanence by collapsing in on itself. The first few times that the periphery collapsed in on the center, I just went straight into fruition and didn’t see what happened next. However, eventually, I was able to watch how the moment the periphery got too close to the centre, then the centre expanded to become a new periphery. It was a switch that happened very fast. I started noticing how every time I’d try to look at the centre in order to investigate the observer, then the centre just expanded to become the periphery, but now a new centre was there. I guess this illustrates the idea that trying to see the observe is a game of hide and seek. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So last night I managed to let the switch between centre and periphery oscillate back and forth really fast with strong mindfulness so that the whole structure dissolved into impermanence. It felt like a big a insight, and I took it through to a very satisfying fruition. However, this leaves me with the question of what next? I suppose there is a sense of being an observer standing outside of the whole orbital system and watching it collapse and expand, so I’m trying to bring attention to that. It sometimes feels like it’s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Turtles_all_the_way_down"&gt;turtles all the way down&lt;/a&gt;, which is frustrating! I’ll also just practice to get up to speed on the centre-periphery dissolution to be able to do it in real time in daily life. But if any of you out there have any other insights or subtle tweaks that might help, I’d love to hear them!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Avi</description> <pubDate>Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:08:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4905105</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-20T17:08:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sambhogakaya and the Impermanence of the Shamanic World</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4893787</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;sawfoot _:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Avi, This seems like a really nice analogy, and I thank you for it. However, since neither of us are 4th path then it is hard to know how good that analogy really is.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;True enough. I suppose if we were 4th path, we wouldn&amp;#039;t need analogies any more to understand it &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 18 Nov 2013 06:17:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4893787</guid> <dc:creator>Avi Craimer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-18T06:17:07Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 