<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=2060969</link> <description>For the specific tradition of Direct Pointing.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 01:24:54 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T01:24:54Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577657</link> <description>AhHa!  Gottcha.  I thought you meant 4-6 hours a day on a cushion, which seemed like a lot, at least for a non-retreat time/householder life &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;.  Cushion/chair I have hundreds of hours, maybe low thousands.  Cushion, chair, and horizontal, I have thousands of hours, I assume.  Counting &amp;#034;soft mindfulness&amp;#034; in everyday life, it&amp;#039;s undocumentable. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;MCTB and this whole site is really weird to me. I can&amp;#039;t decided if I want to make a full attempt at diagnosing my &amp;#034;progress&amp;#034; or if the entire approach is in the wrong direction.  I&amp;#039;ve had some radical experiences, from unspeakblely beautiful heaven-states to the most terrible hell-states.  Fortunately or unfortunately, I have a feeling I know exactly what people refer to when they say &amp;#034;powers.&amp;#034;  Truth be told, I&amp;#039;d be perfectly fine if someone told me I hadn&amp;#039;t even reached first Jana - and the reason I&amp;#039;d be fine is because such a diagnosis wouldn&amp;#039;t change my life at all.  I&amp;#039;d still be as present as I can, and I&amp;#039;d still take every moment to try and alleviate the suffering around me.  Morality really is the last (and first) teaching, and truly our actions are our only real belongings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;much peace, dave.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 18:19:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577657</guid> <dc:creator>David</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T18:19:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577594</link> <description>Hi&lt;br /&gt;4 or 6 hrs of practice,(that could be in 1 hr sits) is about the smallest amount of practice that I&amp;#039;ve heard off where a person attained stream entry/ sotapana. Look up stream entry on line! Also doing nothing meditation all day long is a kind off practice. If it&amp;#039;s already there then, fine enjoy it.  Buddha mind in the soto school of zen still needs to be remembered until it becomes integrated into the attainment of stream entry. All the best. </description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 09:57:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577594</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T09:57:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575433</link> <description>Dear James,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your message made me feel good.  And the last line makes me chuckle each time I read it.  Altogether, your words were just what I needed to read.  They allowed the following thought to come all the way up: I miss sitting.  So anyway, that aspect will probably grow again.  I had some other insights reading your words - so thank you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Much respect and peace, Dave.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:39:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575433</guid> <dc:creator>David</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-30T19:39:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575430</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Neem Nyima:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;   &lt;br /&gt;Hi David.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t really seem you have said enough to answer all you questions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I can invoke insight and compassion and humor all day long. Large, blowout experiences have not happened in a long time. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will need to elborate on your practice history, the qualities of your current state and the objects of its awareness and how they are percieved. How long have you been like this, when did you become like, this how did you become like this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anwsering these questions fully would take forever.  There&amp;#039;s no real 5-cent answer to any of it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Equanimity is not as stable and cruisy as Arising &amp;amp; Passing Away/A&amp;amp;P can be. The practice of insight tends to build in intensity and then break through to A&amp;amp;P and then do the same again with the journey to Equanimity Regarding Formations. But that is a very linear way of describing a non stop roller coaster ride, played out at all different kind of speeds and lengths in the ride which goes forward and backward. The up an down of the ride represent the qualities of going up and down the insight stages. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no up or down, right?  Those are just perspectives.  It&amp;#039;s all perfect, right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example as you get better at A&amp;amp;P you may move up to it and then past it, quite quickly and then on into Dark Night/i.e. Dukha Nana&amp;#039;s, to the point where you experience little high blissfulness from it. So you might, do a heap of Chi Gong practice or Pranayama to drag you back from the Dark Night into pleasnt subtle vibrations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Does a &amp;#034;hardcore meditation practice&amp;#034; require specific time formally sitting each and every day?  &lt;br /&gt;Or can a hardcore meditation practice exist on-the-go?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes/No. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like that.  In German you can combine the word for no, &amp;#034;nein&amp;#034; with the word for yes, &amp;#034;ya&amp;#034; and say &amp;#034;yein,&amp;#034; meaning both yes and no.  That&amp;#039; s fantatic and I think we need a similar word in English!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It depends on your capacity. Generally for most people daily practice and retreat time are required.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have a daily practice, a very strong one, depending on how you define &amp;#034;daily practice.&amp;#034;   I still go to retreats regularly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; You can Maintain Mindfulness on the go, and if you sit/practice 4 to 6 hrs your practice can progress to Stream Entry. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why 4-6 hours?  What does Stream Entry mean to you?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But in most cases this will just help you progress.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I thought there was no progress.  It&amp;#039;s all been right there forever.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You could have hit A&amp;amp;P and you are zoning out and bringing into focus the pleasant qualities, meaning you&amp;#039;ve turned your A&amp;amp;P into a more Samadhi experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure what that means.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With much peace, Dave.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:34:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575430</guid> <dc:creator>David</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-30T19:34:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575224</link> <description>From my perspective, it seems that you are on the right track. You seem to be describing a meditation practice that has infiltrated and blended with your daily life, which is great, and you feel morally sound, a great thing too. Also you have minimal ecstatic experiences, but a more constant baseline.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sounds all good to me. I really wouldn&amp;#039;t worry about anything.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2014 23:34:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575224</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-29T23:34:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575219</link> <description>   &lt;br /&gt;Hi David.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t really seem you have said enough to answer all you questions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I can invoke insight and compassion and humor all day long. Large, blowout experiences have not happened in a long time. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will need to elborate on your practice history, the qualities of your current state and the objects of its awareness and how they are percieved. How long have you been like this, when did you become like, this how did you become like this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Equanimity is not as stable and cruisy as Arising &amp;amp; Passing Away/A&amp;amp;P can be. The practice of insight tends to build in intensity and then break through to A&amp;amp;P and then do the same again with the journey to Equanimity Regarding Formations. But that is a very linear way of describing a non stop roller coaster ride, played out at all different kind of speeds and lengths in the ride which goes forward and backward. The up an down of the ride represent the qualities of going up and down the insight stages. For example as you get better at A&amp;amp;P you may move up to it and then past it, quite quickly and then on into Dark Night/i.e. Dukha Nana&amp;#039;s, to the point where you experience little high blissfulness from it. So you might, do a heap of Chi Gong practice or Pranayama to drag you back from the Dark Night into pleasnt subtle vibrations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Does a &amp;#034;hardcore meditation practice&amp;#034; require specific time formally sitting each and every day?  &lt;br /&gt;Or can a hardcore meditation practice exist on-the-go?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes/No. It depends on your capacity. Generally for most people daily practice and retreat time are required. You can Maintain Mindfulness on the go, and if you sit/practice 4 to 6 hrs your practice can progress to Stream Entry. But in most cases this will just help you progress. You could have hit A&amp;amp;P and you are zoning out and bringing into focus the pleasant qualities, meaning you&amp;#039;ve turned your A&amp;amp;P into a more Samadhi experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Kind Regards, Neem.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2014 23:28:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575219</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-29T23:28:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Hardcore?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575153</link> <description>Does a &amp;#034;hardcore meditation practice&amp;#034; require specific time formally sitting each and every day?  Or can a hardcore meditation practice exist &lt;br /&gt;on-the-go?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I long ago lost the line that seperated practice from non-practice and see it all as practice; but I have similarly lost a dedicated sitting time each day.  I can invoke insight and compassion and humor all day long, and feel mostly confident with the moral quality of my actions.  Large, blowout experiences have not happened in a long time.  Am I missing something and need more disciple, or not to worry?&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:50:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5575153</guid> <dc:creator>David</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-29T21:50:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: No self......So what</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556728</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jason Barton:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I get no self, but not the &amp;#034;liberation&amp;#034; behind it. &lt;br /&gt;If there is such a shift then why all the vehemence and vitriol surrounding the Ruthless Truth practice? &lt;br /&gt;If any practitioners can enlighten me I&amp;#039;d appreciate the dialog.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Direct pointing has its uses, but I personally haven&amp;#039;t had much luck with it. It isn&amp;#039;t necessary to dialogue with someone to see no-self in action, as the three characteristics manifest all the time. Try dropping down to the level of bare sensations-- flickering color and form-- and investigating the following:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are there any sensations that seem to be observing, controlling, or separate from any other sensations? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are there any sensations that are bigger or more special than other sensations?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are there any sensations that are not subject to impermanence, and thus could possibly be a permanent self?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:51:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556728</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T22:51:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: No self......So what</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556697</link> <description>What Ne Mo said.❤&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jason Barton said:&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;I get no self, but not the &amp;#034;liberation&amp;#034; behind it. &lt;br /&gt;If there is such a shift then why all the vehemence and vitriol surrounding the Ruthless Truth practice? &lt;br /&gt;If any practitioners can enlighten me I&amp;#039;d appreciate the dialog.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This may get a little extraneous, Jason&amp;#x2014; but the nature of no self is entry into the inconceivable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;So what&amp;#034; actually makes sense when the concept of selfless being is grasped intellectually, but &amp;#034;liberation&amp;#034; is activated in actually seeing it and accepting one&amp;#039;s function in seeing through situations without denying their characteristics.  Unless one sees selfless nature as the ground of reality &amp;#034;no self&amp;#034; has no power to transcend situations by virtue of situations.  So what?  This only possible to act on when one is no longer fascinated by characteristics relative to conditions, i.e.: as long as you are afraid of missing out on anything, you&amp;#039;re dead meat (utterly caught up in karmic existence and the rounds of birth and death).  One must be beyond the world while in the midst of the world.  C&amp;#039;est la vie.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is what living in the midst of conditions without going along with the nature of conditions is all about.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One could just as easily say &amp;#034;so what&amp;#034; about that too.  A good question to ask is not &amp;#034;so what&amp;#034;, but &amp;#034;why&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As long as one sees oneself as an originated self &lt;em&gt;possessing&lt;/em&gt; the nature of ego-identity, one cannot partake of experience beyond this habitual state of existence.  It is really a matter of being possessed &lt;em&gt;by&lt;/em&gt; the nature of ego-identity.  Ask, &amp;#034;How is that?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nonbeing is the nature of nonexistence.  Unless you know nonexistence, how can you be free of the existence of the self that thinks it exists?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The answer is that you cannot experience the power of enlightening function of authentic liberation of the self that exists unless you actually know that it does not exist by virtue of the fact that &lt;em&gt;reality has never begun&lt;/em&gt;&amp;#x2014; the essence of what you take for reality is its potential.  Only the uncreated (Mind) is real.  And the reason why the concept of no self doesn&amp;#039;t mean anything to you is because you don&amp;#039;t see potential.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Potential is the real essence of unity, selfless energy, living awareness.  Creation is just this, if you see it as such.  Otherwise you are bound to karmic evolution, with no hope of  &lt;strong&gt;l i b e r a t i o n&lt;/strong&gt;.  Seeing that existence is really nonexistent is the basis of  &lt;strong&gt;o b j e c t i v i t y&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Phenomena must be &lt;em&gt;seen&lt;/em&gt; as unreal while adapting to its characteristics in order to activate the power of no self to transcend karma.  Endless transformation is easy, adapting without minding is hard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes?  There is no reason why, it is just the way it is.  Wisdom has been passed down through the ages based on Mind itself.  Mind itself is the source of nonbeing&amp;#x2014; that is nonoriginated awareness.  It is not some other awareness.  Mind is one.  That is no self.  It is you who asks &amp;#034;so what&amp;#034;  …which, in the context of no-self voicing the statement, does make a lot of sense after all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for the shift, it is seamless.  It is already one&amp;#039;s mind right now.  Your own aware nature is Mind itself, your mind void of identity.  When you begin to see reality as is, it will not look any different.  Why?  Because delusion and enlightenment are the same mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Reality and illusion are the same.  Delusion is simply due to the fact of not seeing this and not being able to adapt selflessly to conditions.  Mind void of identity is the world being the same as oneself&amp;#x2014; no different than reality.  Basically delusion is not knowing you are deluded.  Delusion is all there is, really, in terms of created existence.  Sudden enlightenment is simply Mind before creation.  That&amp;#039;s not real either.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Suchness is the buddhist term to describe reality as neither the nature of conditions nor absolute.  The Great Vehicle is embodying the power to partake of Suchness without clinging to the two extremes of absolute and conditional, either of which in isolation are delusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The reason for ruthless practice is to see for oneself that the mind that thinks it exists has overstepped its valid function and has usurped the real identity of the organism that is going to die.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ruthless practice is the same as taoism&amp;#039;s gradual practice of self-refinement.  What is refined?  The human mentality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;ed note: fix Jason&amp;#039;s quote cuz I don&amp;#039;t know how to do things on this site yet…</description> <pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 22:32:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556697</guid> <dc:creator>deci belle</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-13T22:32:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shamar Rinpoche's passing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5546960</link> <description>This is beautiful. Thank you.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:17:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5546960</guid> <dc:creator>Drew Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-18T17:17:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Shamar Rinpoche's passing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5546920</link> <description>This guy was a very down to earth teacher and was my last physical teacher.  He passed away last week.  He eschewed all of the &amp;#034;majesty&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;titles&amp;#034; and typical pomp that is pretty much the hallmark of Tibetan Buddhism and focused on the much more real, theravada type teachings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nevertheless he was very learned and did give &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; teachings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just came across this most excellent and classic &amp;#034;pointing out&amp;#034; instruction from Tilopa to his student Naropa, and hope you like it as much as I do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;unfetteredmind&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;pith-instructions-on-mahamudra"&gt;http://www.unfetteredmind.org/pith-instructions-on-mahamudra&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;tom</description> <pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:54:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5546920</guid> <dc:creator>tom moylan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-18T14:54:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4766477</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Dissociation has a negative connotation with insanity and unreality. The sense of self is simply reactivity towards the self-image. These things are conditioned. Yes it takes a long time to let go of the conditioning (which I never said otherwise) but to me dissociation is more what the general people are like. When you see people talking to themselves and fantasizing they are not in reality but are trying to experience something other than what&amp;#039;s happening now. Eg. Advertising. My self-referencing is like 10% of what it used to be and I feel perfectly normal and with no special mindstate that I&amp;#039;m striving to get and certainly no dissociation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)]Dissociation (psychology)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Dissociation is a term in psychology describing a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experience. It is commonly displayed on a continuum.[1] The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality &amp;#x2013; rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis.[2][3][4][5] In mild cases, dissociation can be regarded as a coping mechanism or defense mechanisms in seeking to master, minimize or tolerate stress &amp;#x2013; including boredom or conflict.[6][7][8] &lt;strong&gt;At the nonpathological end of the continuum, dissociation describes common events such as daydreaming while driving a vehicle. Further along the continuum are non-pathological altered states of consciousness.&lt;/strong&gt;[1][9][10]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Buddhism gets you to sample these states and then get disenchanted with them. Many people are feeling dissociated in meditation because they are continually stuck in concentration altered states or low level insight and during those periods you do get a sense of a dissociated &amp;#034;meditator&amp;#034; self-concept being attached to that needs to be seen through. Insight practice ultimately makes you less dreamy and in the clouds and more in reality which is hitting your consciousness constantly while you are awake. It&amp;#039;s like your brain is addicted to fantasizing and projecting and insight practice gets you weaned off that addiction.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What you are saying is basically what I was trying to say. I guess I do not communicate as well as I thought that I did.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 03 Oct 2013 17:38:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4766477</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-03T17:38:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4764309</link> <description>I&amp;#039;m sorry EN, I agree with everything that you say, but I must not be making what I mean very clear. First of all what I am NOT saying or what I am NOT meaning to convey is that the three characteristics are dissociated from. I am saying that prior to seeing them as they already are, one is also already deluded not seeing things as they are. It is the false seeing, the identity that is believed in, and the false notion of the three characteristics that they are mistaken for that is dissociated from when one finally sees them as they already are. However, there is this sense of a dissociative process that one thinks one is doing at first, at least that is what it seemed like to me. If it was not my acceptance of doing that act of dissociation, convinced that I was doing it in a skillful way rather than according to the negative connotation that most people have, then I would have never begun to practice anything. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, of course you are correct that the three characteristics are already the way things are, and yes, of course awareness is not some ultimate thing but the very non-dual transience of manifestation, but it is not seen that way at first, nor is it possible to even conceive that the universe can even be that way until it is finally seen the way that it actually is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It almost sounds to me that what you are saying is that one doesn&amp;#039;t even begin practicing until one already sees things the way that they actually already are, and that just does not ring true to me.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 03 Oct 2013 01:13:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4764309</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-03T01:13:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4764115</link> <description>Dissociation has a negative connotation with insanity and unreality. The sense of self is simply reactivity towards the self-image. These things are conditioned. Yes it takes a long time to let go of the conditioning (which I never said otherwise) but to me dissociation is more what the general people are like. When you see people talking to themselves and fantasizing they are not in reality but are trying to experience something other than what&amp;#039;s happening now. Eg. Advertising. My self-referencing is like 10% of what it used to be and I feel perfectly normal and with no special mindstate that I&amp;#039;m striving to get and certainly no dissociation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)]Dissociation (psychology)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Dissociation is a term in psychology describing a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experience. It is commonly displayed on a continuum.[1] The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality &amp;#x2013; rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis.[2][3][4][5] In mild cases, dissociation can be regarded as a coping mechanism or defense mechanisms in seeking to master, minimize or tolerate stress &amp;#x2013; including boredom or conflict.[6][7][8] &lt;strong&gt;At the nonpathological end of the continuum, dissociation describes common events such as daydreaming while driving a vehicle. Further along the continuum are non-pathological altered states of consciousness.&lt;/strong&gt;[1][9][10]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Buddhism gets you to sample these states and then get disenchanted with them. Many people are feeling dissociated in meditation because they are continually stuck in concentration altered states or low level insight and during those periods you do get a sense of a dissociated &amp;#034;meditator&amp;#034; self-concept being attached to that needs to be seen through. Insight practice ultimately makes you less dreamy and in the clouds and more in reality which is hitting your consciousness constantly while you are awake. It&amp;#039;s like your brain is addicted to fantasizing and projecting and insight practice gets you weaned off that addiction.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 03 Oct 2013 00:33:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4764115</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-03T00:33:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4762959</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;They seem to be distancing the belief from self(ego), permanence(mind state), and satisfying(ego-trip-seeking). In other words dissociating the brain from the thinking patterns that would facilitate the belief in a dual self. In other words, the brain itself dissociates from the psychological self. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In my experience what transforms is not any sort of dissociation, but a waking up, an insight into what is always already the case. For example a young child may suddenly realize one day that santa claus was never real. From that point on he stops chasing after santa claus or believing that on Christmas day he will receive some present from santa claus. This is just an example. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You do not intentionally distance from the belief, the belief simply ends right there in insight. Also there is no self or mind apart from mental activities, so there is no self to distance from any arising. Dharmas arise according to conditions and subsides due to the cessation of conditions. You cannot force yourself to stop ignorance, you can only investigate, contemplate, one&amp;#039;s direct experience and its nature and when realization arises, false beliefs and views naturally drop in the presence of wisdom. Each moment is either the total exertion of ignorance in which ignorance (seeing self and things as truly existing or inherently existing) shapes and is totally exerted as a moment of deluded experience, or as the total exertion of wisdom in which an experience is totally exerted or is actualized as a moment of wisdom experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As my friend Kyle Dixon quoted before,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;…The process of eradicating avidyā is conceived… not as a mere stopping of thought, but as the active realization of the opposite of what ignorance misconceives. Avidyā is not a mere absence of knowledge, but a specific misconception, and it must be removed by realization of its opposite. In this vein, Tsongkhapa says that one cannot get rid of the misconception of &amp;#039;inherent existence&amp;#039; merely by stopping conceptuality any more than one can get rid of the idea that there is a demon in a darkened cave merely by trying not to think about it. Just as one must hold a lamp and see that there is no demon there, so the illumination of wisdom is needed to clear away the darkness of ignorance.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Napper, Elizabeth, 2003, p. 103&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But that is exactly what seems to be what is being done with mindfulness practice where one concentrates over and over again on the three characteristics of not self, not lasting, and not satisfying prior to that non-dual non-Self awareness is it not?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;First of all just to clarify and make sure we&amp;#039;re on the same page: non-dual non-Self awareness is not a state of experience achieved at some point in one&amp;#039;s practice, but what is always already the case - experience is always already self-aware and non-dual, never was there a subject/object, or perceiver/perceived dichotomy (other than as conceived delusions), and this is always already the nature of experience. Being the nature of what is always already so, we do not achieve it as a stage, but we realize what it is and what its nature is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your statement &amp;#034;three characteristics of not-self, not lasting and not satisfying prior to that non-dual non-Self awareness&amp;#034; may give some the impression that by dissociating from the not-self, you discover Awareness that transcends the not-self, or that non-dual Awareness is somehow changeless and transcending transiency. By investigating according to the three dharma seals, by penetrating into the truth of Anatta, there is both correct experience and correct discernment of non-dual awareness and its nature (as an insight into anatta will deconstruct the dualistic views of seer-seeing-seen), but not self/not lasting/not satisfying is not to be seen as a method or means to get somewhere more ultimate but are simply the nature of this very manifest naked awareness/experience. Being so, you realize the three dharma seals and emptiness of this very naked manifest awareness, you realize the three seals to be the nature of non-dual awareness itself and actualize the wisdom of three seals and emptiness so that experience is intimately/gaplessly and lucidly experienced yet self-liberating (rather than skewing towards vivid non-dual luminosity and leaving subtle traces by resting in that clarity either as one mind/a subject or a subtle grounding to a here/now/objective-universe) - you do not dissociate from experience that manifest the three dharma seals, you simply realize and actualize that wisdom (of the nature and essence of everything that is always already so) so that experience self-releases.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is not any Awareness other than manifestation (the sensate universe, this immediate moment of experience) as they are - already self-luminous and self-aware without any observer or any separate &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; that is aware of that manifestation. It could be said to be a &amp;#039;quality&amp;#039; of experience - that without the quality of awareness of all manifestation, nothing could be cognized, felt, experienced. It could be conceptualized as something like the &amp;#039;wetness&amp;#039; of water - awareness is a quality seen in every manifestation just as wetness is a quality that is seen in every drop of water. But it should not be mis-conceptualized as some metaphysical essence that &amp;#034;pervades but transcends&amp;#034; everything (as many people with the Atman-Brahman/Advaitic leaning view would conceive of Awareness in such manner) - because although all drops of water is wet, it also goes the other way round - there is also no wetness to be spoken apart from the drop - or from drops of water. There is no wetness apart from drops of water, no heat apart from the manifestation of burning fire, etc etc, likewise no awareness apart from &amp;#034;in seen only the seen, in heard only the heard, in cognized only the cognized&amp;#034;. It is not the case that Awareness pervades drops of water but transcends those drops of water - if there were no drops of water there is no wetness, if there were no burning fire there is no heat, if there were no sugar then there is no sweetness - they (wetness/heat/sweetness/etc) are simply characteristics and experiential-descriptions of manifestation and likewise for &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;manifest experience&amp;#039; (which can then be categorized in many arbitrary schemes like five aggregates, twelve ayatanas, eighteen dhatus or just one dhatu - all also conventional designations). Incoherent as it seem, substantialists reify Awareness much like conceiving there to be a changeless and truly existing &amp;#039;sweetness&amp;#039; that pervades but remains unchanged throughout the presence and absence of sugar. But the realization of &amp;#034;in seeing just the seen, no seer&amp;#034; is not by logical inferences or analogies or intellectual exercises but by direct experiential contemplation (for me, I was contemplating and challenging the seer-seeing-seen framework of viewing things with pointers of Bahiya Sutta, when the realization arose) which leads to a moment of direct gnosis/realization/insight/wisdom/awakening and lasting transformation thereafter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is why this kind of pervade-but-transcend metaphor is flawed (although perfect for Advaita) and people have mistaken Daniel Ingram&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;True Self/No-Self&amp;#034; chapter (which I think has potential to be very beneficial especially to those with an Advaitic/Awareness-teaching sort of background, but the contents need to be thoroughly clarified) to be implying that he holds Advaitic sort of true-self teaching, although I&amp;#039;m sure Daniel does not hold that kind of view but it is easy to pick on one particular part of the chapter that one likes and be blind to the whole context and overall point or message that the article is trying to deliver, which is that other than the five aggregates there is no &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; whatsoever to be spoken of. When direct insight into Anatta arise, the view of pervade-and-transcend is made irrelevant and incompatible, there is just manifestation and nothing else pervading manifestation nor transcending manifestation, there is no true-self of any sort in a definitive sense, only a provisional, skillful-means teaching of true self to guide those non-Buddhist ascetics that fear the teaching of anatta and emptiness (Lankavatara Sutra: &amp;#034;O Mahāmati, the tathāgatas thus teach the garbha in so far as they teach the tathāgatagarbha in order to attract those who are attached to the heterodox ātmavāda. How can people whose minds fall into the conceptual theory bearing on an unreal self (abhūtātmavikalpa) attain quickly the complete awakening in the supreme and exact sambodhi, possessing a mind comprised in the domain of the three gateways of emancipation? O Mahāmati, it is because of this that the tathāgatas teach the tathāgatagarbha... ...O Mahāmati, with a view to casting aside the heterodox theory, you must treat the tathāgatagarbha as not self (anātman).&amp;#034;). Many Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhists however have a very Advaitic sort of view on &amp;#039;Awareness&amp;#039; (though there are also many who don&amp;#039;t).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In other words, there is no awareness whatsoever to be spoken apart from &amp;#039;in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized&amp;#039; - awareness is not an Observer, not something apart or transcending vivid and self-luminous manifestation but is simply that self-luminous, self-aware quality of manifestation, and apart from manifestation there is no awareness to be found whatsoever. There is ONLY manifestation, and it is of that manifestation with a lucidly clear, vivid, cognizant, conscious, sentient and alive quality that one may then impute labels like &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039;. In the end, the term &amp;#039;awareness&amp;#039; is seen to be quite extraneous. We often talk in terms of subject-object predicates, such as, &amp;#034;I am seeing the tree over there&amp;#034;, implying a seer seeing an object seen, but in actuality there is only just that self-luminous single activity of &amp;#039;seen&amp;#039;, and even the &amp;#039;seen&amp;#039; is ultimately empty since &amp;#039;seen&amp;#039; is only spoken in reference and context of seeing/seer etc, i.e. all (seer/seeing/seen) are just conventions collating a single self-luminous manifestation or activity, to conceive them as distinct inherent realities or entities is to fall into delusions. To speak of &amp;#034;I am seeing the tree&amp;#034; is extraneous - there is no inherent &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;seer&amp;#034; apart from the seeing/seen happening, to speak of &amp;#034;seeing the tree&amp;#034; or even &amp;#034;seeing&amp;#034; is extraneous, to speak of &amp;#034;awareness&amp;#034; is also extraneous, just &amp;#034;the seen&amp;#034; is enough as that already implies seeing, and seeing is only ever just the seen. Or as Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh says, &amp;#034;We can say, &amp;#039;Wind,&amp;#039; and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing&amp;#039;&amp;#034; - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, awareness being mere manifestation or quality of manifestation or some people call it the nature or essence (or characteristic) of mind/mental activities/six senses activities/etc, and not a Self or a thing-in-and-of-itself, being mere conditioned manifestation luminous clarity cannot be pinned down as a Self, and as manifestation there is only transiency. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Awareness is the transience field of manifestation, luminous-mind itself is not-self, is impermanent, and all manifestations being impermanent and not-self, cannot satisfy one&amp;#039;s attachments and craving (only permanent, graspable, abiding, stable subjects/objects can satisfy one&amp;#039;s attachments and cravings - which is desire to obtain things and hold on to them indefinitely). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is why one must let go non-dual luminosity, but not by dualistically separating &amp;#039;oneself&amp;#039; from &amp;#039;it&amp;#039; which would again be the deluded, false, dualistic situation in which there is a conceived observer and object observed. Instead, it is still very important to have direct insight into non-dual luminosity and this becomes naturally obvious by penetrating through the 2nd stanza of anatta (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html), but further insights will reveal the disjointed, groundless, empty and self-liberating nature of whatever arises and non-dual luminosity is no longer grasped, subjectified or objectified in any way but simply releases upon inception without leaving traces like painting on water.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In other words, we must have insight into the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) OF that non-dual luminosity, it is not that we arrive at non-dual luminosity (as if it is something ultimate and absolute transcending the three dharma seals) after contemplating on the three dharma seals.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course you don&amp;#039;t seem to be implying non-dual Awareness is Self or some ultimate metaphysical essence (as you clearly stated Awareness as &amp;#039;non-Self&amp;#039;), but just pointing out that the &amp;#039;non-dual luminosity&amp;#039; and the three characteristics and emptiness should be seen as talking about the (empty) nature and (luminous/clarity) essence of a single moment of arising, rather than one leading up to another, or as pointing to two different realities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just as Thusness wrote last year:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:23 PM: John: U cannot talk about emptiness and liberation without talking about awareness&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:25 PM: John: Instead understand the empty nature of awareness and see awareness as this single activity of manifestation&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:27 PM: John: I do not see practice apart from realizing the essence and nature of awareness&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:30 PM: John: The only difference is seeing Awareness as an ultimate essence or realizing awareness as this Seamless activity that fills the entire Universe.&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:32 PM: John: When we say there is no scent of a flower, the scent is the flower....that is becoz the mind, body, universe are all together deconstructed into this single flow, this scent and only this... Nothing else.&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:33 PM: John: That is the Mind that is no mind.&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:38 PM: John: There is no an Ultimate Mind that transcends anything in the Buddhist enlightenment. The mind Is this very manifestation of total exertion...wholly thus.&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:42 PM: John: Therefore there is always no mind, always only this vibration of moving train, this cooling air of the aircon, this breath...&lt;br /&gt;6/3/2012 9:47 PM: John: The question is after the 7 phases of insights can this be realized and experience and becomes the ongoing activity of practice in enlightenment and enlightenment in practice -- practice-enlightenment.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Oct 2013 17:57:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4762959</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-02T17:57:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4762787</link> <description>One has to start somewhere. One does not magically appear on the other shore. One starts out being bombarded by all kinds of doubt, frustration, aversion, avoidance, delusion, ignorance, and wrong view, but that is where the person is when one starts. One’s brain starts out confused in a dual state. But little by little one begins to dissociate as a physical body, brain, and senses away from the wrong view towards the right view that is enlightened to the fact that it is not dual, that it is the manifesting of the universe. The brain comes to a place where the dual view vanishes and reemerges as the non-dual universe. The old deluded self dissociates, or vanishes, leaving what actually is, but one has to work towards that point because one does not start out there. It would be like telling a freshman medical student to just go ahead and do brain surgery.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Oct 2013 16:34:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4762787</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-02T16:34:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758590</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Would not the Eternal Now consider something being seen as so in the past that is now seen as not so be seen as something differently seen? If so, what is the difference in saying that that previous seeing just is no longer associated with what is so?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Each moment is unique and disjoint which is true and I do not consider this as being related to dissociation. This is completely unrelated to the fact there is no Self to dissociate (separate itself) from things and any attempt to do so is a subtle aversion, ignorance, avoidance, delusion, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The warning against dissociation is spoken in relation to the dualistic (subject-object) misperceptions that made people think they could &amp;#039;distant&amp;#039; themselves from or control the flow of manifestation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But that is exactly what seems to be what is being done with mindfulness practice where one concentrates over and over again on the three characteristics of not self, not lasting, and not satisfying prior to that non-dual non-Self awareness is it not? They seem to be distancing the belief from self(ego), permanence(mind state), and satisfying(ego-trip-seeking). In other words dissociating the brain from the thinking patterns that would facilitate the belief in a dual self. In other words, the brain itself dissociates from the psychological self.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Oct 2013 03:42:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758590</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-01T03:42:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758445</link> <description>The practice is done properly if it&amp;#039;s anti-narcissism. If you view a self-image and then go into perception/recognition of whether you like that self-image or not (eg. comparing your self-image to other people) and you release dopamine (if you like the image) or cortisol (if you don&amp;#039;t like the image) then you&amp;#039;re investing these emotions into a concept. Self-concept is just a self-concept. If you atrophy the self-referencing habit by continuously not clinging, then you are not taking that image seriously any more and will likely leak these chemicals more in line with what&amp;#039;s happening in the present moment and actual circumstances instead of memories and projections.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Narcissist = addicted to self-referencing and making decisions based on that and rating self-worth based on that assessment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Arhat = Not self-referencing and on top of that is disenchanted with any form of dopamine addiction.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Healthy self-referencer = someone who assesses his/her self-image less often and doesn&amp;#039;t attach unhealthy beliefs that are inhuman to themselves. They may have passion directed in a good target (work/hobbies/family/etc). Whichever version you prefer please go towards it and away from a depressed narcissist. If you just want to attack bad beliefs with cognitive therapy and that&amp;#039;s good enough for you the by all means go for it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assessment of performance in life should = only a rating of performance. Rating performance as a rating of self-worth is wrong and maybe evil. We know in society and with bullies that they are all about rating self-worth based on performance/success/wealth etc, and they rate people that way all the time. Then the weaker person who identifies with that self-concept is hurting themselves precisely because they believe the perception inputed into their brain by the bully and run with it. Unfortunately they may run with it for the rest of their lives.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is the battle. Stupid negative self-beliefs can make people depressed and suicidal. It&amp;#039;s perpetrated by rigid beliefs fostered by family/co-workers/peers/spouses. If it doesn&amp;#039;t stop all we will have is increased societal breakup and emotionally damaged zombies walking the earth.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Oct 2013 00:00:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758445</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-10-01T00:00:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758087</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Would not the Eternal Now consider something being seen as so in the past that is now seen as not so be seen as something differently seen? If so, what is the difference in saying that that previous seeing just is no longer associated with what is so?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Each moment is unique and disjoint which is true and I do not consider this as being related to dissociation. This is completely unrelated to the fact there is no Self to dissociate (separate itself) from things and any attempt to do so is a subtle aversion, ignorance, avoidance, delusion, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The warning against dissociation is spoken in relation to the dualistic (subject-object) misperceptions that made people think they could &amp;#039;distant&amp;#039; themselves from or control the flow of manifestation.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 30 Sep 2013 19:41:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4758087</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-30T19:41:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754740</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I totally agree with this. As I lose the habit of self-referencing I don&amp;#039;t feel I&amp;#039;m in some special mind state and being in daydreams about a future or past and treating it as a self is the disassociation for me (and painful). Thinking about the past or possibilities of the future is just thinking. What a relief!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not that it is the same, but when a person who supposedly suffers from dissociative fugue syndrome, that person loses sense of personal identity and self altogether as if that person never actually existed in the first place. Sometimes a new persona is invented, but that usually is not the case.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 30 Sep 2013 00:47:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754740</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-30T00:47:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754700</link> <description>Would not the Eternal Now consider something being seen as so in the past that is now seen as not so be seen as something differently seen? If so, what is the difference in saying that that previous seeing just is no longer associated with what is so?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 30 Sep 2013 00:26:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754700</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-30T00:26:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754686</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Actually it is not a matter of semantics. &amp;#034;Dissociate&amp;#034; has a connotation of &amp;#034;separate&amp;#034; which would imply something like being a separate self removing one&amp;#039;s association with objects. A subject separating or distancing oneself from object. After seeing through all notions of a separate self one would not practice dissociation. There is absolutely no observer apart from the observed that could distant or separate. Otherwise one would practice dissociation which is actually holding in disguise. It has nothing to do with whether dissociation sounds nice or not but everything to do with whether one is practising letting go wrongly and strengthening the position of a Self or Subject instead.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, well, these two lips of which function as the un-unified unity can speak in a way that is most accurate, but would other seemingly separate conglomerates see it as sane?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;accurate understanding is very important for liberation and whether others see it as sane is not my business&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Say it isn&amp;#039;t so cho.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 30 Sep 2013 00:20:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754686</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-30T00:20:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754682</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Actually it is not a matter of semantics. &amp;#034;Dissociate&amp;#034; has a connotation of &amp;#034;separate&amp;#034; which would imply something like being a separate self removing one&amp;#039;s association with objects. A subject separating or distancing oneself from object. After seeing through all notions of a separate self one would not practice dissociation. There is absolutely no observer apart from the observed that could distant or separate. Otherwise one would practice dissociation which is actually holding in disguise. It has nothing to do with whether dissociation sounds nice or not but everything to do with whether one is practising letting go wrongly and strengthening the position of a Self or Subject instead.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, well, these two lips of which function as the un-unified unity can speak in a way that is most accurate, but would other seemingly separate conglomerates see it as sane?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;accurate understanding is very important for liberation and whether others see it as sane is not my business</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 23:53:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754682</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T23:53:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754512</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Actually it is not a matter of semantics. &amp;#034;Dissociate&amp;#034; has a connotation of &amp;#034;separate&amp;#034; which would imply something like being a separate self removing one&amp;#039;s association with objects. A subject separating or distancing oneself from object. After seeing through all notions of a separate self one would not practice dissociation. There is absolutely no observer apart from the observed that could distant or separate. Otherwise one would practice dissociation which is actually holding in disguise. It has nothing to do with whether dissociation sounds nice or not but everything to do with whether one is practising letting go wrongly and strengthening the position of a Self or Subject instead.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, well, these two lips of which function as the un-unified unity can speak in a way that is most accurate, but would other seemingly separate conglomerates see it as sane?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 22:28:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754512</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T22:28:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754480</link> <description>Actually it is not a matter of semantics. &amp;#034;Dissociate&amp;#034; has a connotation of &amp;#034;separate&amp;#034; which would imply something like being a separate self removing one&amp;#039;s association with objects. A subject separating or distancing oneself from object. After seeing through all notions of a separate self one would not practice dissociation. There is absolutely no observer apart from the observed that could distant or separate. Otherwise one would practice dissociation which is actually holding in disguise. It has nothing to do with whether dissociation sounds nice or not but everything to do with whether one is practising letting go wrongly and strengthening the position of a Self or Subject instead.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 21:44:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754480</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T21:44:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754021</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;An Eternal Now:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I would also like to add, whether anyone likes me adding it or not, that having an aversion to such words and terminology such as dissociative states, dissociating from self/Self, or even merely the concept of the deconstruction of a personality is mostly an aversion driven by the distasteful, disdainful public opinion of such matters. Prior to the effortless actualization of the emptiness of phenomena like you said, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“Lastly, not to talk too much about self-liberation or the natural state, it can sound extremely misleading... ...We have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness...&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And is nothing other than the process of dissociation whether the terminology is liked or not, because prior to right view there is wrong view, and the process of turning wrong view into right view is that very act of deconstruction. It is a paradigm shift that is brought on by dissociation. The problem is that the world has a wrong view of dissociation and considers it to be something bad, which it is not necessarily if approached correctly with right effort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hi J E B, you have a different set of terminology from me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In my definition, deconstruction is not the same as dissociation. Dissociation does not mean deconstruction - it means there is the reference and vantage point of a Self, and one dissociates that Self from objects as other-than-Self. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Examples of dissociation would be: I am not the thought, I am not the sensation, because I am the Witness, the Watcher, the Observer of thought. I observe thought from a distance and things just float by but have nothing to do with Me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In Deconstruction however, even that self-sense or agent or Observer is being seen through as merely delusional constructs imputed upon and/or in relation with various constituent aggregates, sensations, perceptions and there is &amp;#039;in seeing just the seen, no seer&amp;#039;, in hearing just sound in perceiving just perceptions without any self/Self to dissociate from them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One can also deconstruct other constructs like &amp;#039;body&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;physical world&amp;#039;, etc. For example the image of a body having a solid shape located somewhere somewhere in here, thereby also setting up boundaries into &amp;#039;inside&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;outside&amp;#039; etc could be deconstructed and one then sees centerless, boundless manifestation of perceptions and sensations that are flickering, disjoint, not making up into a solid entity, and one might experience the universe with the mind/body drop-off as weightless, transparent, boundless, centerless, without division.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All these have nothing to do with a Witness or Self dissociating from body or thoughts as &amp;#039;other than Self&amp;#039;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course you have a different terminology from that of the rest of the world as does everyone else in meditation circles, because we have dissociated from those terms with which the rest of the world has a negative connotation. That is why we cling to Pali, Sanskrit, or some other set of spiritualized diction rather than utilizing scientific or psychological equivalents. One usually only hears people from meditation or spiritual circles making such semantically, apologetic distinctions, because of the negativity that is publicly associated with those concepts. Most people would say that you have also dissociated from the watcher as well as the empty process of consciousness itself. This is still seen by most of the world as something negative.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 19:28:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4754021</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T19:28:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4753151</link> <description>I totally agree with this. As I lose the habit of self-referencing I don&amp;#039;t feel I&amp;#039;m in some special mind state and being in daydreams about a future or past and treating it as a self is the disassociation for me (and painful). Thinking about the past or possibilities of the future is just thinking. What a relief!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:24:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4753151</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T14:24:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4753095</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;J E B:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I would also like to add, whether anyone likes me adding it or not, that having an aversion to such words and terminology such as dissociative states, dissociating from self/Self, or even merely the concept of the deconstruction of a personality is mostly an aversion driven by the distasteful, disdainful public opinion of such matters. Prior to the effortless actualization of the emptiness of phenomena like you said, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“Lastly, not to talk too much about self-liberation or the natural state, it can sound extremely misleading... ...We have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness...&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And is nothing other than the process of dissociation whether the terminology is liked or not, because prior to right view there is wrong view, and the process of turning wrong view into right view is that very act of deconstruction. It is a paradigm shift that is brought on by dissociation. The problem is that the world has a wrong view of dissociation and considers it to be something bad, which it is not necessarily if approached correctly with right effort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hi J E B, you have a different set of terminology from me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In my definition, deconstruction is not the same as dissociation. Dissociation does not mean deconstruction - it means there is the reference and vantage point of a Self, and one dissociates that Self from objects as other-than-Self. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Examples of dissociation would be: I am not the thought, I am not the sensation, because I am the Witness, the Watcher, the Observer of thought. I observe thought from a distance and things just float by but have nothing to do with Me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In Deconstruction however, even that self-sense or agent or Observer is being seen through as merely delusional constructs imputed upon and/or in relation with various constituent aggregates, sensations, perceptions and there is &amp;#039;in seeing just the seen, no seer&amp;#039;, in hearing just sound in perceiving just perceptions without any self/Self to dissociate from them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One can also deconstruct other constructs like &amp;#039;body&amp;#039;, &amp;#039;physical world&amp;#039;, etc. For example the image of a body having a solid shape located somewhere somewhere in here, thereby also setting up boundaries into &amp;#039;inside&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;outside&amp;#039; etc could be deconstructed and one then sees centerless, boundless manifestation of perceptions and sensations that are flickering, disjoint, not making up into a solid entity, and one might experience the universe with the mind/body drop-off as weightless, transparent, boundless, centerless, without division.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All these have nothing to do with a Witness or Self dissociating from body or thoughts as &amp;#039;other than Self&amp;#039;.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:03:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4753095</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-29T14:03:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4751950</link> <description>Good points J E B.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 28 Sep 2013 19:59:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4751950</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-28T19:59:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4751523</link> <description>I would also like to add, whether anyone likes me adding it or not, that having an aversion to such words and terminology such as dissociative states, dissociating from self/Self, or even merely the concept of the deconstruction of a personality is mostly an aversion driven by the distasteful, disdainful public opinion of such matters. Prior to the effortless actualization of the emptiness of phenomena like you said, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;“Lastly, not to talk too much about self-liberation or the natural state, it can sound extremely misleading... ...We have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness...&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And is nothing other than the process of dissociation whether the terminology is liked or not, because prior to right view there is wrong view, and the process of turning wrong view into right view is that very act of deconstruction. It is a paradigm shift that is brought on by dissociation. The problem is that the world has a wrong view of dissociation and considers it to be something bad, which it is not necessarily if approached correctly with right effort.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 28 Sep 2013 16:31:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4751523</guid> <dc:creator>J E B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-28T16:31:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4519856</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;hey howdy,&lt;br /&gt;in mahayana buddhism, or more specifically, vajrayana, there are terms like dzogchen, mahamudra which are direct pointing TYPES. most of these are advanced practices though which traditionally require LOTS of training before someone is ready to have the &amp;#034;pointing out instructions&amp;#034; or other analagous instructions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks. If I remember correctly the other forum/post mentouned a Buddhist tradition with the name beginning with a letter T, which is quite similar to Direct Pointing though I can&amp;#039;t find that forum/post now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;tom moylan:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;in the direct pointing which has popped up in the last few years there are no long prerequisites to awaken. the person doing the pointing logically deconstructs the idea of a seperate and existing self until the instructee has an insight into whatever level of non-self they are prepared to accept.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;its hard to define the levels they reach on the maps and differing opinions are out there.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No questions about LU/Direct Pointing, I am totally familiar with them. (I got the insight some time ago by just reading and contacting other teachers, though later I also got the confirmation from them.)</description> <pubDate>Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:10:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4519856</guid> <dc:creator>The Who</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-07-28T10:10:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4510797</link> <description>hey howdy,&lt;br /&gt;in mahayana buddhism, or more specifically, vajrayana, there are terms like dzogchen, mahamudra which are direct pointing TYPES. most of these are advanced practices though which traditionally require LOTS of training before someone is ready to have the &amp;#034;pointing out instructions&amp;#034; or other analagous instructions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;in the direct pointing which has popped up in the last few years there are no long prerequisites to awaken. the person doing the pointing logically deconstructs the idea of a seperate and existing self until the instructee has an insight into whatever level of non-self they are prepared to accept.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;its hard to define the levels they reach on the maps and differing opinions are out there.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 27 Jul 2013 10:57:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4510797</guid> <dc:creator>tom moylan</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-07-27T10:57:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4510192</link> <description>Someone mentioned in a topic that Direct Pointing is very similar to one form of a Buddhist method where the deconstruction of the I/self happens very similarly. I can&amp;#039;t find that forum/Buddhist traditoin. Which one is it?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:09:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4510192</guid> <dc:creator>The Who</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-07-27T06:09:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327266</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mind over easy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I figured I&amp;#039;d post this in direct pointing since looking directly at the sense of self is doing this for me at the moment-&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I look into the sense of self and try to look at awareness separated from thoughts, this immense feeling of suffering grows. &lt;br /&gt;Kellen&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is a flaw in the premise that is probably important.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Awareness separated from thoughts&amp;#034;: sounds like you are attempting to create a duality between something that doesn&amp;#039;t exist (awareness) and thoughts, which are intrinsically aware or you could just more simply and clearly say manifest where they are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why try to create that illusion?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no separation, nor anything to be separate from anything.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No-self: no subject, no observer, no doer, no controller, no this-and-that, no split, no gap, no this-side-and-that-side, no duality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Reality is a natural, causal, integrated, transient, ephemeral, empty process. You are trying to be someone who is trying to create a split between something that is mythological and something to ephemeral that it must be held in some illusorily fixed way to create a split.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let the thing show itself. Let what arises just be, just arise and vanish, aware of itself where it is, no doer, no controller, no meditator, just things arising and vanishing all the way through, easily, simply, straightforwardly. Why make something so simple and easy so complicated and artificially held in some contrived sense of a divide?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Relax and allow the qualities of space to synchronize with themselves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 09:27:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327266</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T09:27:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327140</link> <description>Sorry, I just mentally combined your two posts or something... Fivebells response was along those lines. Rony&amp;#039;s post pointed out how the selfing process works and how to directly let it go. Actually... that was kind of what I was trying to do, after listening to Tolle speak. Thoughts are not self, look at them and regard them as such, let go of them, let them pass. Then I tried to approach things in such a way when I got into trouble, not so much with content of thoughts, but the extremely unpleasant nature of the sensations occurring in the chest and in the mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll try to do some metta next time before I dive into a direct practice style like this. It was a really unpleasant experience, but all the while, it&amp;#039;s interesting to try out various techniques and approaches.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 05:15:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327140</guid> <dc:creator>Mind over easy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T05:15:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327137</link> <description>Thanks, both of you. Both responses seem along the lines of turning fabrications pleasant before you deconstruct them.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 05:09:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4327137</guid> <dc:creator>Mind over easy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T05:09:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326625</link> <description>The classic prescription is cultivating metta for the sense of self you&amp;#039;re looking at until your mind is steady enough to continue. If that&amp;#039;s too hard, start with things it&amp;#039;s easier to feel metta for and build up to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Both the metta and the anger/disgust are fabrications. So are the perceptions of the three characteristics. So is the sense of self. If the anger/disgust is too destabilizing for the purposes of taking apart the fabrication of the self, fabricate a more useful fabrication (metta.) Then use it in conjunction with the three characteristics meditation. It may also be instructive to try alternating between the metta and the anger/disgust, in that it makes clear their fabricated nature. Nikolai&amp;#039;s &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;thehamiltonproject&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;09&amp;#x2f;yogi-experiment-hacking-vedana&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x3f;q&amp;#x3d;Hacking&amp;#x2b;vedana"&gt;Hacking vedana&lt;/a&gt; instructions may be useful, here. (Certainly have been for me...)</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 03:58:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326625</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T03:58:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326611</link> <description>hey i just read about the &amp;#034;sense of self&amp;#034; in this link,this may sound helpful&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.ca/2012/05/surrendering-i-letting-go-of-suffering.html</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 03:54:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326611</guid> <dc:creator>rony fedrer</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T03:54:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326601</link> <description>Also, to add, I posted a mad-intense A&amp;amp;P experience a few days back, and I seem to have hit dark night territory pretty hard. That probably factors in to this too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Looking for &amp;#034;rigpa&amp;#034;, instead getting &amp;#034;ripped-up&amp;#034;-&lt;br /&gt;Kellen</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 03:39:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326601</guid> <dc:creator>Mind over easy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T03:39:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Trouble looking at self, overwhelming frustration/pain results</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326597</link> <description>I figured I&amp;#039;d post this in direct pointing since looking directly at the sense of self is doing this for me at the moment-&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I look into the sense of self and try to look at awareness separated from thoughts, this immense feeling of suffering grows. In the body, there&amp;#039;s this extremely unpleasant feeling in my chest, a bit like anxiety but much more like a general sense of unwellness, almost like restless leg syndrome inside a chest instead. This is paired with extreme emotional discomfort, bordering anger and disgust. It was so intensely miserable, to the point where I actually started to sweat. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know that the response might just be to note it, note it all. And I generally take this approach. However, I&amp;#039;m wondering if anyone has any other skillful ways of dealing with this. The fact that I can go from sitting, feeling generally fine, and upon looking directly at the sense of self and go to some kind of personal hell so quickly seems to indicate to me that this is actually a useful way to get directly at how selfing creates suffering. But I&amp;#039;m getting stuck on how damn unpleasant it is and how hard it is to get past it, noting or otherwise. Backing off and just noting other things in the sense environment tends to make it subside, but I&amp;#039;m interested in working through it to make progress, since it is obviously pointing out something about the relationship between suffering and self. How to break it though? How to dive into examining no-self without getting stuck on this extremely painful blockage? People often talk about noting like it automatically reduces/eliminates the suffering possible from perceiving something, but it doesn&amp;#039;t seem to be the case here, where any kind of paying attention to the sense of self brings up the extremely terrible/oppressive sensations in the chest paired with an extreme sense of discomfort/disgust/anger/pure suffering. Not to be a diva with practice (make it go away, this is terrible and I don&amp;#039;t want this, etc...), but I&amp;#039;m just looking for some way to approach this that resolves the suffering while still tending to the glaringly obvious problem in mind and body that is related to looking into the sense of self.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Everything is suffering&amp;#034;, but how to not suffer in spite?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thoughts on direct pointing/looking directly into the 3C&amp;#039;s in a non-noting kind of way:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-It is hard, apparently, but also seems to bring me to the grounds of insight related to dukkha rather quickly&lt;br /&gt;-It just brought up territory that seems to correspond to 3rd vipassana jhana, but interestingly enough, no A&amp;amp;P was observed. Slight mind and body feeling when starting the practice, but it was basically: okay, I&amp;#039;m sitting and things are cool, time to look directly at sense of self, okay, I&amp;#039;m suddenly intensely aware of a pair of oppressive sensations in chest, and oppressive, highly aggravating/hateful/miserable mental feelings&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With a headache from a suddenly miserable experience-&lt;br /&gt;Kellen</description> <pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 03:33:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4326597</guid> <dc:creator>Mind over easy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-05-21T03:33:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3505435</link> <description>I havent listened to the interview yet myself, but I think Rick does a great job because he keeps things so normal and doesnt let people get carried away in dogma or bullshit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@fivebells, not just arguing for the sake of arguing but for me some bits of conditioning fell away instantly tbh. It was a complete and utter game changer. I literally saw things differently in an instant, both conceptually but even physically sight wise.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For me Ive always pondered to myself since all this started (which was via RT btw), &amp;#034;Is direct pointing something significant and real that is a genuinely better technique than many other traditions and meditations?&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;Is it just another meditation and tradition that offers no more than any others?&amp;#034; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I say this from a very comfortable place where I feel absolutely no urge to defend RT, direct pointing or any of that general school of thought whatsoever anymore, but Ive reached a middle ground, where yes, it is something very very solid, effective, impressive, quick and delivers huge results within days or weeks, moreso than other schools of thought that I know of (that said Ive heard theres something similar called Enlightenment Intensive that does the same thing) ,however, its useless on its own and if you want to achieve what you thought it was supposed to achieve initially you have to practice your ass off as well. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The biggest issue is that the result seems different for everyone. Theres definitely different degrees of impacts. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, enough off topic ranting! I should really listen to the interview first&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/big_grin.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 21:19:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3505435</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-09-06T21:19:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3470617</link> <description>I appreciate their honesty in the second hour, in that they admit that &amp;#034;Passing the Gate&amp;#034; is a relatively superficial development which merely indicates the dropping of a belief and not the conditioning which has developed in support of that belief.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:56:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3470617</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-27T18:56:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3468327</link> <description>It was a very good interview. I thought they answered everything with a great deal of specificity and precision.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric</description> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 23:52:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3468327</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-26T23:52:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3467985</link> <description>I haven&amp;#039;t checked out the interview yet, but I&amp;#039;ve talking with Thassa (a.k.a. Delma), Wylo and some of the other original direct-pointing folks and have to agree that most of them have a far clearer view of what they&amp;#039;re doing now than was common in the earlier days. Great to see more people getting happier!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:27:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3467985</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-26T21:27:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Interview at "Buddha at the Gas Pump" with Elena and Ilona</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3461326</link> <description>I sometimes listen to Rick Archer&amp;#039;s podcast, &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;batgap&amp;#x2e;com"&gt;Buddha at the Gas Pump&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recently, he interviewed &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;batgap&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;ilona-ciunaite-elena-nezhinsky&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Elena and Ilona&lt;/a&gt;, whose contributions can be found here in the &amp;#034;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;category&amp;#x2f;2060969"&gt;Direct Pointing&lt;/a&gt;&amp;#034; sub-forum.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Very nice interview, and Rick keeps asking good questions, too. It seems they have more developed views on what it is they&amp;#039;re doing nowadays.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:29:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3461326</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-08-24T09:29:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3250414</link> <description>Thanks for pointing this out wylo. Another work of great benefit by AEN.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 17:38:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3250414</guid> <dc:creator>Eric B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-06-25T17:38:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>AENs article on Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3248841</link> <description>I thought it was worth sharing this here, for anyone who may have stumbled across this place after going through the process at LU or Truth Strike...&lt;br /&gt;http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_Integrating-View-And-Experience.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Integrating View and Experience&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like something about the Liberation Unleashed and the former Ruthless Truth approach to realization: it aims to investigate and realize the truth of no-self in the most direct straight-forward manner by investigating and challenging the existence of &amp;#039;you&amp;#039;. A rather similar form inquiry into no-self is personally what led to my realization into no-self, however, I was not liberated by the guides in Liberation Unleashed or from Ruthless Truth. My insight into anatta, or no-self, arose when I was contemplating on the Buddha&amp;#039;s teaching to Bahiya (Bahiya Sutta), but that is another story. My background is more towards Buddhism (I formally took refuge in the triple gems of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha under Venerable Shen Kai of Ren Cheng Buddhism when I was 2 years old), even though I did not restrict my studies alone to Buddhism. I have also learnt a lot from John, who is better known online by the nickname &amp;#039;Thusness&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Although I do like the LU (Liberation Unleashed) and the old RT (Ruthless Truth) approach in investigating the delusion of a &amp;#039;self&amp;#039;, I also see many questions continue to linger in those who have been &amp;#034;liberated&amp;#034;. Is there any more to see? Why does someone else seem to realize something different, and talk very different things? Did they experience something different? Deep clarity on the degrees of self/Self and the different insights that unfold are not commonly expressed and it is not only a problem in LU but is rather pervasive in the spiritual community. Lots of sincere seekers and teachers offering their experience and insights can be found, but few people are able to have a very clear &amp;#034;big picture&amp;#034; of it all. And this is where perhaps my sharing may hopefully become a helpful pointer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Firstly, one should recognize that there exists different degrees of self/Self to be seen through, and there are different types of realizations that are being taught or emphasized by different teachers. Yes, there is not only one kind of enlightenment (as you may have suspected), there are many &amp;#039;levels&amp;#039; of insight (though not always unfolding in the same linear pattern for everyone). There are many faces of self/Self, for example having merely experienced non-doership does not mean one has realized non-duality or no agency.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I have noticed about people in the LU community is that people are speaking from different kinds of insights, and many may confuse one insight with another. (Note that what I am saying next has no hierarchy or order of importance or a fixed linear way of how it will &amp;#039;unfold&amp;#039; for each person, and each insight is valuable in and of itself): Merely having an experience of impersonality whereby the sense of a personal self or doer is deconstructed into the experience of &amp;#039;being lived impersonally by the universe&amp;#039; is different from the direct realization of our luminous essence, or the Presence-Existence-Consciousness as Self (the I AM realization), which is different from experiencing a state of oblivion prior to the arising of beingness or consciousness (also often reified into an absolute or ultimate subject), which is different from non-dual realization that there never was a subject-object, Witness-witnessed/observer-observed split in which there is no longer even the sense that there is anything other than the non-dual display of awareness (such that it is no longer I AM the background Awareness in which objects arise from and subside to, as there is no more &amp;#039;objects&amp;#039; other than display of Awareness experiencing itself - One Mind), but even this is different from the realization that there is no agent - there is no watcher, no background that could either be separate from or be inseparable with manifestation. A deeper insight may then arise on the empty nature of everything - from non-dual awarenesss, self/Self, the &amp;#039;objects&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;phenomena&amp;#039;, all are understood to be mere imputation (just like the word &amp;#039;weather&amp;#039; is a mere imputation on a conglomerate of everchanging phenomena), thereby everything is thoroughly deconstructed into shimmering appearances. The sense of an agent, self/Self, or source, is replaced by the direct experience of the process of dependent origination. Each insight or seeing is a form of further deconstruction and is linked to a deeper experience of freedom and release.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The deeper the insights arise and sink into our psyche replacing our deeply rooted latent tendencies related to ignorance, the deeper the freedom we experience, because all bondage and suffering arise from uninvestigated constructs/views/ignorance, which leads to obsession, attachment and craving after perceived solid objects which &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; then &amp;#039;possess&amp;#039; as &amp;#039;mine&amp;#039; (which, due to impermanence, sooner or later gets lost - leading to suffering), or more subtly the craving, identification and attachment to a mind, body, personality, doership, self, Self, agency, presence, nothingness, or even non-dual awareness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eventually we will come to directly experience the release from all afflictions, grasping and sufferings. When insight into anatta arises, one deconstructs self/Self in gross and subtle forms - even non-dual presence is seen as empty of any self/Self and deconstructed to its self-less, arising and passing sensations, or the constituents of the five aggregates (skandhas in Buddhist terminology) - herein experience is still implicitly non-dual (not because it is a non-dual absolute that is &amp;#039;one with&amp;#039; sensations, but that there is no subject to begin with that could be separate from or be inseparable from these transient, passing self-luminous sensations), it is seamless and without effort or grasping and is automatically self-released - whatever manifests is empty of anything that could be pinned down or grasped - what manifests is fully experienced but self-released on the spot (not by dissociation or effort). When the true nature of phenomena is deeply realized and actualized, disenchantment, dispassion, a natural release from all grasping and craving occurs, and as a result - freedom from suffering. The Buddha teaches that the end of craving is the end of suffering, as craving is the cause of suffering. The eight-fold path to awakening and liberation (from craving, from suffering) starts with right view (the forerunner)... up to right mindfulness and right concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As such, having the right view is important. We often fail to realize that all our grasping and problems have their basis in ignorance, in uninvestigated constructs and views, which continues to persist even if we have the direct realization of our non-conceptual luminous essence. Freedom is therefore not just about having a direct non-conceptual or non-dual experience (in fact non-conceptual, non-dual consciousness itself may become an object of grasping and identification as a result of ignorance and wrong views), it is also about having the right view, right understanding of no-self, dependent origination and emptiness, and then contemplation/investigating accordingly so that the right view is directly realized and experienced in real-time. Any notion or sense of a truly existing source, awareness, objects, self, mind, body, etc are all thereby liberated or transcended into a single moment of suchness - just this breathe, this scent, this sight, lucidly experienced yet nothing real, nothing truly &amp;#039;existing&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;solid&amp;#039; - rather they are empty and illusory, and are self-releasing. It is only through deep insight into the empty nature that we can experience true release, true liberation (from all holdings, emotional afflictions, suffering, etc), and not just a blissful, non-conceptual and non-dual luminous state of experience. Then at one point all the insights are &amp;#039;integrated&amp;#039; into a single moment of manifestation which is spontaneously perfected - already self-luminous, impersonal, non-dual, agentless, empty, as the total exertion of the universe (of causes and conditions).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This may all seem a little complicated, but it is only complicated before it is being experienced. When direct realization arise, it is all seen directly - much like someone tasting water will know directly for himself whether it is warm or cold. But it is true that before direct gnosis, one often has to undergo a confusing period of challenging our views and investigating the nature of reality. But I urge people not to stop their contemplation/investigation prematurely after having some insight or experiences, as it would be a pity. If you have gone through the LU or RT process of investigating and challenging the view of self, you will know that at times such process can be a little (or very) frustrating. Many people are drawn to simplicity and simply being &amp;#034;naked in awareness&amp;#034; as the mind is often in a state of confusion, therefore one prefers resting the torrent of mental concepts in the non-conceptual state of Being as a solution to all our confusions. While being naked in awareness is also a good practice, the non-conceptual direct experience must be balanced with the right view otherwise we will fall into what Thusness calls the &amp;#034;disease of non-conceptuality&amp;#034;. In such case, one is fervently attached to being bare and non-conceptual, one may even fear going into concepts, but by neglecting the part about having right view, direct insight and deconstructing our latent views, this will prevent us from having a deeper realization into emptiness. It will prevent us from progressing, it will prevent a deeper purification of view, a deeper freedom, a deeper release. Eventually when deep insight arises, we are no longer trapped in concepts nor seek after a non-conceptual state as a solution to our confusions, which originate from ignorance and false views. It is not ‘thoughts’ as such that are the problem, it is rather the wrong views, the ignorance, that causes a warped view of self and reality. Thoughts in and of itself need not be a problem and is also a self-luminous, ownerless, transient and empty display of buddha-nature or the nature of mind, just as any other sights or sounds &amp;#x2013; rather, ignorant and false constructs (of duality and inherency) are the source of our problems, attachments and confusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Despite it not being as simple as one may prefer it to be, I must say every &amp;#039;effort&amp;#039; on the path of wisdom is well worth it (eventually through the arising of prajna wisdom, it does become a completely effortless, pathless and seamless freedom). As Thusness said,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;...there exist a predictable relationship between the &amp;#039;mental object to be de-constructed&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;the experiences and realizations&amp;#039;... As a general guideline,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2. If you de-construct the objective pole, you will be led to the experience of One-Mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3. If you go through a process of de-constructing prepositional phrases like &amp;#034;in/out&amp;#034; &amp;#034;inside/outside&amp;#034; &amp;#034;into/onto,&amp;#034; &amp;#034;within/without&amp;#034; &amp;#034;here/there&amp;#034;, you will dissolve the illusionary nature of locality and time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4. If you simply go through the process of self-enquiry by disassociation and elimination without clearly understanding the non-inherent and dependent originated nature of phenomena, you will be led to the experience of “I AMness”.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lastly, not to talk too much about self-liberation or the natural state, it can sound extremely misleading... ...We have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness...&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The article is by Soh Wey Yu. The author lives in Singapore and posts under the name &amp;#034;An Eternal Now&amp;#034; in his blog &amp;#034;Awakening to Reality&amp;#034;.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 00:21:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3248841</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-06-25T00:21:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3192286</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Tommy M:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;You may find &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakeningtoreality&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;2007&amp;#x2f;03&amp;#x2f;thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Thusness&amp;#039;&lt;/a&gt; model, which you&amp;#039;re probably aware of already, more useful as I reckon most &amp;#034;greens&amp;#034; who sincerely applied the techniques would be likely to experience his 1st stage. It also makes it quite clear that such experiences are not &amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034; and that there is more to be done after such a realization which, to me, was one of the failings of the original RT approach; people were getting these deep insights and walking about thinking they were awakened, only to have their asses handed to them by the more difficult stages of this whole thing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;RT is all about the most direct way to realize no-self. However it is unfortunate that there is no clarity about the different degrees of self/no-self.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have seen RT or LU &amp;#034;enlightened roll&amp;#034; people spanning all sorts of stages. Many RT or LU people did not even realized I AM, just experienced impersonality and were considered enlightened. Many RT/LU &amp;#034;enlightened list&amp;#034; are at I AM (as I AM at late phase is oceanic, all-pervading, deeply impersonal and seen as universal, thus mistaken with no-self too). Many at non dual (no-self based on Self/one mind). A few has gotten to Thusness Stage 5. But so far none penetrates into stage 6 including Ciaran (who himself is at stage 5). Ciaran does not have clarity on the degrees of no-self and so this problem occurred in his students. He has confused for example, Eckhart Tolle, who realized the I AM (first two Thusness stages), with his no-self insight. Actual Freedom teachings on the other hand, has more awareness on the different degrees of no-self, also it is a more gradual method than RT and has its own particular emphasis (e.g. On eliminating &amp;#034;affect&amp;#034;) but as I realized more on anatta and emptiness I discovered that even AF teaching is also not quite complete. Nonetheless these two teachings did serve as an important condition in 2010 for me to penetrate into anatta. Later, I saw their inadequancies and more recently I&amp;#039;m drawn to other teachings like Soto Zen Dogen studies, pali canon suttas etc. Not saying that AF or RT is not valuable, as it can be valuable at certain point of the path, and also Advaita used to be my main focus earlier on. Pragmatic dharma - whatever works.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So anyway, my point is, it is quite impt to have some awareness on the different degrees of no-self or the different degrees of self/Self (though understanding there is no hierarchy, only different insights and experiences). One of the issues I covered in my article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway LU owner Illona asked me to write an article for their website. I have dragged on for a long time due to lack of time and inspiration. I might have an idea now.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:01:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3192286</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-06-05T12:01:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3187279</link> <description>Just saw this now,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks Tommy, &lt;br /&gt;Unfortunately the experiment sort of failed in a way, it seems a personal thread is needed to keep the person completely and entirely engaged on the one topic at hand, which is no self. Several people sort of expressed interest but fizzled out , and the one person that really tried to give it a go Im actually talking to now 1 on 1 instead, because it seems he has more barriers than I originally anticipated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, like you say , there is nothing wrong with having instructions laid out for people so they can do it themselves. Thats what worked for me, but then again, once I get preoccupied by something I tend to not be able to let go of it until its &amp;#034;done&amp;#034;. So in that respect , I definitely dont think I needed the same sort of focused engagement.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thats not my site, but I like to stay involved to an extent. Even though its only one small aspect of this whole awakening thing, because it was so big for me, (a guy who 2 weeks prior to seeing it, had barely even heard of awakening or enlightenment or meditation), that I feel sort of obliged to pass the message on, but I do it now when it suits me, theres no point engaging with people when you&amp;#039;re not in the mood, I also send to them onto here, and the awakeningtoreality blog for more.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regarding RT and Ciaran etc, yea, as soon as I started listening to others I slipped away more and more myself tbh because I realized not only do other methods work, but are much further ahead, and have a decent map to go with it, and are much more in the know regarding reducing suffering, not just attaining new &amp;#034;undiscovered insight&amp;#034;. Blind leading the blind really.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I suppose, it was out of excitement and compassion (For me anyway), its just the naivity of it made it in danger of becoming an angry cult with dogma.&lt;br /&gt;Combining that technique and learning as much as you can elsewhere too is what I encourage now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just want to say , its the engagements with yourself and EIS that have completely helped me turn around my approach from a near-defensive one to a proactive one. You gave me alot of good advice in one particular thread in the &amp;#034;What was that?&amp;#034; forum.&lt;br /&gt;I think staying grounded and being as aware as possible as to when you are fooling yourself is the key to doing this right.&lt;br /&gt;And I know, I HAVE fooled myself on lots of occasions,lol&lt;br /&gt;Cheers!!</description> <pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 13:24:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3187279</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-06-04T13:24:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3171849</link> <description>I like it, and I also really like your emphasis on doing it yourself. Give someone the techniques and clearly describe to them how to do it, if they&amp;#039;re serious about it then they&amp;#039;ll make progress although I&amp;#039;d be wary of trying to map any potential experiences to the Path system. You may find &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakeningtoreality&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;co&amp;#x2e;uk&amp;#x2f;2007&amp;#x2f;03&amp;#x2f;thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Thusness&amp;#039;&lt;/a&gt; model, which you&amp;#039;re probably aware of already, more useful as I reckon most &amp;#034;greens&amp;#034; who sincerely applied the techniques would be likely to experience his 1st stage. It also makes it quite clear that such experiences are not &amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034; and that there is more to be done after such a realization which, to me, was one of the failings of the original RT approach; people were getting these deep insights and walking about thinking they were awakened, only to have their asses handed to them by the more difficult stages of this whole thing. It also encouraged a lot of egotism and point-scoring mentality which was part of the reason I left it in the first place, which is a pity because the basic techniques could have been developed further if Ciaran and his sidekicks weren&amp;#039;t so quick to rubbish every other meditative and investigative approach.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck with it, you&amp;#039;ve always been an honest and genuine guy in the times we&amp;#039;ve interacted and I think your attitude towards this is much more positive than what RT became. I&amp;#039;ll bookmark your site and see how it goes with you. : )</description> <pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2012 21:15:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3171849</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-29T21:15:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Very simple and useful full body direct pointing type exercizes</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3123976</link> <description>I&amp;#039;d never heard of the guy before but I really like his approach. I wondered if we could get Douglas to come by and contribute some stuff about his approach on here, but then I realized he died in 2007 and I had to edit this sentence. Ha!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for posting it!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 22:47:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3123976</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-08T22:47:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Very simple and useful full body direct pointing type exercizes</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3122306</link> <description>I recently came across a very useful and fun set of experiments created by a guy named Doug Harding that have value towards gaining further insight.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As with all successful insight practice, it is important to set aside pre-conceived notions of reality, and actually try the experiments with curiosity, fun, and an investigative spirit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is the original work...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;headless&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;experiments&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.headless.org/experiments.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This particular experiment here, inspired by Harding but created by someone else, triggered some shifts in my understanding.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;spiritualteachers&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;harding_experiment3&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.spiritualteachers.org/harding_experiment3.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;More on harding here...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;spiritualteachers&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;douglas_harding&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.spiritualteachers.org/douglas_harding.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;----&lt;br /&gt;The way they actually help one attain realization is quite ingenious, in that they use everyday life pointing to challenge underlying mental views of reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are interested in spiritual enlightenment, I highly reccomend taking a few minutes out of your day to give these are try!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 02:49:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3122306</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-05-08T02:49:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3039217</link> <description>Hi neem, you&amp;#039;re right, it is an RT spin off, I come from there. RT is gone now, but this site was set up by sort of the same group , basically some of whom were involved in RT.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And yes, the methods are pretty much the same as RT, only that was my attempt at being far more specific in terms of how to actually look and focus, and cut out the need for a guide. I think I have a better handle now on what I was doing, and I beleive the clarity Ive gained from here has contributed to that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im not making any claims about it, and what it will do for YOU, I can only account for me and other people that have gotten alot out of this methodology. It allowed me to achieve alot , thats not to say Im not learning a bucket load here and on MCTB too though. Im a firm believer in taking all the knowledge and shit I can , and see whats working for me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im a firm beleiver in combing the stuff here with this ridiculously direct hard line looking approach, because what the combination has done for me in the past few months has been fairly staggering. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And its actually something I would love to see being taken more seriously than it is so far. But naturally, people are very very skeptical and the behaviour and naivity of us at RT originally did not help things.We went a bit overboard. &lt;br /&gt;but despite all those egostical mistakes I stand by the core technique as it is.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2012 14:10:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3039217</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-07T14:10:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3032487</link> <description>Looks a lot like a &amp;#039;ruthless truth&amp;#039; spin-off, but without a direct link back to the site, when some reckons they&amp;#039;ve attained in ruthless truth they&amp;#039;re encouraged to make their own page. Ingram has a link or used to, to the site. They&amp;#039;re oka, in some ways. Thought Enquiry is an important component of Mahamudra practice too. G&amp;#039;Luck&lt;br /&gt;ps I found mixing that kind of enquiry during retreat very helpful all thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations &amp;amp; reactions i&amp;#039;d label not self, most of the time the enquiry was as simple as that. All your left with is Intentions and the subtle sensations people mistake for Awareness, i.e. space calm silence.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:21:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3032487</guid> <dc:creator>Neem Nyima</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-05T12:21:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024878</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Matt N:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Wondering peoples thoughts. I experienced no self from direct pointing about half a year ago after a year of meditation practices. Since then my meditation practice dropped for awhile.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can still see no self quite evidently, but I don&amp;#039;t see any benefit to it. Maybe I blame myself less because I realize there really is no me, its just a series of images and sounds playing in my mind in the moment. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a little easier to be present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My anxiety and inability to relax are still here though. Bad emotional control and understanding are still there. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In fact they&amp;#039;ve gotten worse without meditating. Meditation was helping these things, realization of no self does not seem to really do anything for them. They were the reasons for beginning meditation, and as a supposed end point for meditation, I guess I thought enlightenment would mean some change in those factors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What real benefit is there for enlightenment then? My thoughts lately seem to say that the things cultivated over time with meditation are more important than simply understanding the nature of consciousness.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I found my emotions were enhanced after receiving teachings similar to &amp;#039;pointing out&amp;#039;. It is all part of a process of unfolding fermentations, including unpleasant ones. One benefit is that you get to see the beginnings of feelings/thoughts/perceptions more clearly, along with a sense of their impermanence. This also helps vivify the subtle body, which leads naturally to seeing yourself as something more than flesh and blood, which in turn it makes it easier to develop meditative focus. Anxiety can be seen as an energetic state. To be honest, I&amp;#039;ve become an feeling/sensation junkie in some ways, because I&amp;#039;ve become interested in how these constellations of feeling etc. develop, and how they course through your body. The human being really is a marvel. In that context, restlessness and trepidation are just physical/mental states, like beads on a rosary.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2012 07:33:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024878</guid> <dc:creator>Luna Swift Arrow</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-03T07:33:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024502</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One simple thing I keep in mind to keep the bar raised very high for myself is: does there seem to be something taking birth again and again from moment to moment, even when interspersed with moments of seeing in the seen? Is there something interrupting that seeing in the seen, hearing in the heard etc. If so, I keep looking, prying apart, seeing what maybe overlooked, or not paid attention to head on. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;rad. thanks for bringing that up, nick. was starting to think it&amp;#039;s time to raise the bar yet again.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2012 00:21:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024502</guid> <dc:creator>Steph S</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-03T00:21:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024425</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;wylo .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Its &amp;#034;haunting&amp;#034; it (for want of a better phrase) less and less tbh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The manifestation and experience of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;being&amp;#039; can go through some pretty gnarly changes, getting subtler and subtler and harder to objectify and pry apart. If i were you and I was wanting to avoid resting laurels at any stage due to not seeing the &amp;#039;selfing experience&amp;#039; that was the norm before, I&amp;#039;d consider the notion of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as anything that resembles an experience of tangibly mentally felt sense of being / presence / location in the world / agency (something seemingly in control of the body) / sense of existing as anything as well as any sense of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;happinessbeyondthought&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;11&amp;#x2f;meditation-can-permanently-eliminate-i&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;the flow of time&lt;/a&gt;. It may have been seen to be illusory, but some igorance of something or other is giving rise to it still.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Nick, &lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Yea, I know it may seem Im like Im settled and there isnt &amp;#034;further&amp;#034; but believe me Im pushing hard at this, now more than ever, and yes since my initial awakening where I saw the illusion (very clearly), I&amp;#039;ve moved on to the list of yours...&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;d consider the notion of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as anything that resembles an experience of tangibly mentally felt sense of being / presence / location in the world / agency (something seemingly in control of the body) /&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; , and even then Im shedding alot of those experiences you talk about. Especially location in the world and agency.&lt;br /&gt;Even today for example , just little things, people walking past me, cars driving by, it really didnt feel like it was &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; they were going past, almost like its the story of this body/this reality is being watched.&lt;br /&gt;The sense of self can be so shed that there is really is NO ONE/NOTHING left centrally here, not even someone trying to &amp;#034;look&amp;#034; (direct pointing) Obviously Im not all the way but Im getting there. It can be so intense at times that even if Im resting on a couch or walking it doesnt even feel like the body weight is there, just the direct sensations of whatevers touching another object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regarding loss of flow of time, hmmm, tough one, I havent looked out for it, with the exeption of when Im meditating, recently I am shocked by how little time is gone sometimes. I may extraordinarily deep and relaxed in a jhana state/nothingness, then feel quite energetic and small bit restless afterwards, Id look at the clock and about 8 or 9 minutes would be gone, it would feel like itd have been going on for 20/30. &lt;br /&gt;Thats probably not what you&amp;#039;re talking about though. All in time. Im not putting the feet up yet. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/smile.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And you&amp;#039;re right, its all about trying not to live in ignorance or assumption. It often takes a bout of honesty to reveal something you&amp;#039;d be ignoring for months in a row.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One simple thing I keep in mind to keep the bar raised very high for myself is: does there seem to be something taking birth again and again from moment to moment, even when interspersed with moments of seeing in the seen? Is there something interrupting that seeing in the seen, hearing in the heard etc. If so, I keep looking, prying apart, seeing what maybe overlooked, or not paid attention to head on. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 23:12:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024425</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-02T23:12:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024408</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Its &amp;#034;haunting&amp;#034; it (for want of a better phrase) less and less tbh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The manifestation and experience of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;being&amp;#039; can go through some pretty gnarly changes, getting subtler and subtler and harder to objectify and pry apart. If i were you and I was wanting to avoid resting laurels at any stage due to not seeing the &amp;#039;selfing experience&amp;#039; that was the norm before, I&amp;#039;d consider the notion of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as anything that resembles an experience of tangibly mentally felt sense of being / presence / location in the world / agency (something seemingly in control of the body) / sense of existing as anything as well as any sense of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;happinessbeyondthought&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;11&amp;#x2f;meditation-can-permanently-eliminate-i&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;the flow of time&lt;/a&gt;. It may have been seen to be illusory, but some igorance of something or other is giving rise to it still.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Nick, &lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Yea, I know it may seem Im like Im settled and there isnt &amp;#034;further&amp;#034; but believe me Im pushing hard at this, now more than ever, and yes since my initial awakening where I saw the illusion (very clearly), I&amp;#039;ve moved on to the list of yours...&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;d consider the notion of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as anything that resembles an experience of tangibly mentally felt sense of being / presence / location in the world / agency (something seemingly in control of the body) /&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; , and even then Im shedding alot of those experiences you talk about. Especially location in the world and agency.&lt;br /&gt;Even today for example , just little things, people walking past me, cars driving by, it really didnt feel like it was &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; they were going past, almost like its the story of this body/this reality is being watched.&lt;br /&gt;The sense of self can be so shed that there is really is NO ONE/NOTHING left centrally here, not even someone trying to &amp;#034;look&amp;#034; (direct pointing) Obviously Im not all the way but Im getting there. It can be so intense at times that even if Im resting on a couch or walking it doesnt even feel like the body weight is there, just the direct sensations of whatevers touching another object.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regarding loss of flow of time, hmmm, tough one, I havent looked out for it, with the exeption of when Im meditating, recently I am shocked by how little time is gone sometimes. I may extraordinarily deep and relaxed in a jhana state/nothingness, then feel quite energetic and small bit restless afterwards, Id look at the clock and about 8 or 9 minutes would be gone, it would feel like itd have been going on for 20/30. &lt;br /&gt;Thats probably not what you&amp;#039;re talking about though. All in time. Im not putting the feet up yet. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/smile.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And you&amp;#039;re right, its all about trying not to live in ignorance or assumption. It often takes a bout of honesty to reveal something you&amp;#039;d be ignoring for months in a row.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 22:36:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3024408</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-02T22:36:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023873</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Its &amp;#034;haunting&amp;#034; it (for want of a better phrase) less and less tbh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The manifestation and experience of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;being&amp;#039; can go through some pretty gnarly changes, getting subtler and subtler and harder to objectify and pry apart. If i were you and I was wanting to avoid resting laurels at any stage due to not seeing the &amp;#039;selfing experience&amp;#039; that was the norm before, I&amp;#039;d consider the notion of &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as anything that resembles an experience of tangibly mentally felt sense of being / presence / location in the world / agency (something seemingly in control of the body) / sense of existing as anything as well as any sense of &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;happinessbeyondthought&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;11&amp;#x2f;meditation-can-permanently-eliminate-i&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;the flow of time&lt;/a&gt;. It may have been seen to be illusory, but some igorance of something or other is giving rise to it still.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:13:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023873</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-02T20:13:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023295</link> <description>These are not matters I have a great deal of direct experience with, but this discussion reminds me of the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;tipitaka&amp;#x2f;sn&amp;#x2f;sn22&amp;#x2f;sn22&amp;#x2e;089&amp;#x2e;than&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Khemaka sutta&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; conceit, an &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; desire, an &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising &amp;amp; passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: &amp;#039;Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.&amp;#039; As he keeps focusing on the arising &amp;amp; passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; conceit, &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; desire, &amp;#039;I am&amp;#039; obsession is fully obliterated.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:25:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023295</guid> <dc:creator>fivebells .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-02T15:25:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023285</link> <description>Its &amp;#034;haunting&amp;#034; it (for want of a better phrase) less and less tbh.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:09:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3023285</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-02T15:09:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021774</link> <description>You see the &amp;#039;default mode network&amp;#039; as &amp;#039;no-self&amp;#039;, yet the default mode network keeps activating. More meditation will regulate and de-activate the DMN and triggers for negative emotions will be dealt with. You might have seen something &amp;#039;no-selfy&amp;#039;, yet &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; as an experience continues to haunt the corridors of your brain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;tinyurl&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;7puc2ty"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/7puc2ty&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;pnas&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;content&amp;#x2f;106&amp;#x2f;6&amp;#x2f;1942&amp;#x2e;full&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x2b;html"&gt;http://www.pnas.org/content/106/6/1942.full.pdf+html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2012 21:16:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021774</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-01T21:16:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021662</link> <description>as someone who has now made serious progress far beyond direct pointing, and has began to truly shed any sense of control at all, I would still have no issue calling the result of direct pointing &lt;strong&gt;for some people&lt;/strong&gt; enlightenment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But then again, its just a word, and Tommys right, you&amp;#039;re in no way done whatsoever after seeing no self, you do get a few months of serious clarity and freedom out of it, but conscious effort is required to keep pushing further. And decent meditation is required if you simply want to be happier.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:26:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021662</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-01T20:26:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>My experiment , no guiding or ongoing pointing...</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021658</link> <description>Here is a copy and paste of this thread.. &lt;br /&gt;http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3021654&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi folks, Im trying an experiment over on another forum.&lt;br /&gt;Here is the link..&lt;br /&gt;http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewtopic.php?f=4&amp;amp;t=748&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This wont really apply to alot of people here who are beyond stream entry I would imagine, or to people who are really really comfortable with their progress etc, but I welcome you to give it a go, especially someone more early on in this whole process.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The ideal person is someone who feels like they are in control of their life but conceptually understands there is no real self/controller/experiencer but just doesnt &amp;#034;get&amp;#034; it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This doesnt have to interrupt whatever Dho practice you are currently doing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im not going to claim a successful outcome is &amp;#034;stream entry&amp;#034; or any path, quite simply because I dont know, and after a bit of struggling to find out, my final answer was &amp;#034;inconclusive but something not far off stream entry&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;I started a thread in the direct pointing section (link below) if you want to use it to respond.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Its also worth noting that it is my practice here that has helped me get 10 times more out of my initial no self realisation and really really enjoy life than anything else. So basically, what I mean is, treat this like something to add to your toolkit, or just a side experiment, not your escape route from concentration or insight practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So if your interested in trying, reply in the direct pointing thread here&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;PS, If you&amp;#039;re not interested in trying it and have an opinion or criticism about direct pointing, all I can say is &amp;#034;meh&amp;#034;, just not in the mood for arguing at the moment, maybe when Im less sleepy!!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So reply here if you think you&amp;#039;ll give it a real shot!!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:21:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=3021658</guid> <dc:creator>wylo .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-04-01T20:21:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2894079</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Wondering peoples thoughts. I experienced no self from direct pointing about half a year ago after a year of meditation practices. Since then my meditation practice dropped for awhile.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can still see no self quite evidently, but I don&amp;#039;t see any benefit to it. Maybe I blame myself less because I realize there really is no me, its just a series of images and sounds playing in my mind in the moment. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a little easier to be present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My anxiety and inability to relax are still here though. Bad emotional control and understanding are still there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In fact they&amp;#039;ve gotten worse without meditating. Meditation was helping these things, realization of no self does not seem to really do anything for them. They were the reasons for beginning meditation, and as a supposed end point for meditation, I guess I thought enlightenment would mean some change in those factors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What real benefit is there for enlightenment then? My thoughts lately seem to say that the things cultivated over time with meditation are more important than simply understanding the nature of consciousness.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What you&amp;#039;re saying seems quite common to a lot of the direct pointing crowd who claimed to have gotten enlightened through that method, you get some insight into the whole no-self thing but gradually come to realize that it didn&amp;#039;t really change all that much about your life. That in itself should be enough to indicate that you&amp;#039;re not enlightened and that there&amp;#039;s more to be done.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be able to see no-self isn&amp;#039;t enough, it&amp;#039;s only one of the three marks of existence along with impermanence and suffering and they all need to be experienced and understood directly. This is where meditation comes in handy as it makes it easier to examine and observe these things as they happen. No amount of direct pointing, particularly when it&amp;#039;s done by people who don&amp;#039;t really know what they&amp;#039;re talking about, is going to cut it for the vast majority of people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, you&amp;#039;re aware that this &amp;#034;series of images and sounds playing in my mind in the moment&amp;#034; isn&amp;#039;t you. Can you honestly say that this is the way in which you experience these things, or is there still some form of identification with them going on? You can intellectually understand that these things are not you, yes, but that&amp;#039;s not the same as having seen through it entirely.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I suggest that you look long and hard at your current experience of the world. Drop all the ideas you&amp;#039;ve got with regards to what you&amp;#039;ve attained so far, find a technique which works for you and then get down to some serious meditation practice otherwise you&amp;#039;ll go around in circles indefinitely. Enlightenment is worth the effort, the practices skills you learn along the way are worth the effort, and the practices involved are worth the effort.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:30:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2894079</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T22:30:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2892386</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I accept that your point is (if I paraphrase correctly) that it is the &lt;em&gt;process&lt;/em&gt; that decreases our propensities to cause ourselves pain, rather than the &lt;em&gt;acheivement&lt;/em&gt; of a goal, but by defining enlightenment separately you seem to be separating it from the process somehow, which is isn&amp;#039;t.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s the original poster&amp;#039;s claim, though - that through direct pointing, they became enlightened without going through the usual &amp;#034;process&amp;#034; of meditation.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 16:38:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2892386</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T16:38:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891512</link> <description>Yes, I agree with pretty much all you say, Thom. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;(...) saying stuff like &amp;#034;Enlightenment itself will do absolutely nothing for you...&amp;#034; and that &amp;#034;it&amp;#039;s irrelevant to your life&amp;#034; are nice sound bites, but come with their own problems that I think you only partially address in your post.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Absolutely, so it&amp;#039;s nice that you highlight these problems.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For someone who sees my view in contrast to your view, this might be a bit befuddling, so I&amp;#039;ll highlight what I see as some important points in your post:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hmm. I think I see the point you&amp;#039;re making here Stian...but from a &lt;strong&gt;practical perspective&lt;/strong&gt;, saying the benefit of enlightenment is nothing measurable is perhaps a little facile. From an &lt;strong&gt;experiential perspective&lt;/strong&gt; it&amp;#039;s totally measurable - you suffer less.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(...)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, &lt;strong&gt;practically speaking&lt;/strong&gt;, I feel it&amp;#039;s important to understand that there can be moments in life (generally arrived at through some kind of practice, but sometimes not) experienced in normal, linear time where humans can hit a developmental stage that is &lt;strong&gt;generally agreed to be some kind of &lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Thom W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I accept that your point is (if I paraphrase correctly) that it is the &lt;em&gt;process&lt;/em&gt; that decreases our propensities to cause ourselves pain, rather than the &lt;em&gt;acheivement&lt;/em&gt; of a goal, but by defining enlightenment separately you seem to be separating it from the process somehow, which is isn&amp;#039;t.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sticky stuff, indeed. I see the process of practice towards enlightenment as a frighteningly complex network of cause and effect with synergies and a vast amount of different and similar effects, which can be both positive and negative, and only a few effects considered &amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034;. I have no clue how to put into words, or even how to think about, the dynamics of these causes and effects, especially considering the synergistic stuff that can happen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Defining enlightenment separate from this tremendous network of cause and effect, so that the outcome of engaging in the process of enlightenment becomes more than just to achieve enlightenment, I see that as a good thing, because there is so much more to the process of enlightenment than enlightenment itself. As I wrote, only a few effects of the practice are considered &amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034;, and I don&amp;#039;t think it&amp;#039;s a good idea to limit oneself to only achieving this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In other words, I see it a worthy endeavor to engage in the process of enlightenment, even without the goal of enlightenment - this because there is so much more to the process.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This implies a certain distinction between the path and the fruit. In many ways the path &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; the fruit, in some ways it&amp;#039;s not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;$0.6</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:44:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891512</guid> <dc:creator>Stian Gudmundsen Høiland</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T10:44:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891497</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Enlightenment itself will do absolutely nothing for you...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...Enlightenment doesn&amp;#039;t &lt;em&gt;fix you&lt;/em&gt; and it is utterly irrelevant to &lt;em&gt;your life&lt;/em&gt;. But the practice leading up to it can definitely improve your life tremendously...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...The benefit of enlightenment is nothing measurable....&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hmm. I think I see the point you&amp;#039;re making here Stian...but from a practical perspective, saying the benefit of enlightenment is nothing measurable is perhaps a little facile. From an experiential perspective it&amp;#039;s totally measurable - you suffer less. Sometimes in previously unimaginable ways.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I accept that your point is (if I paraphrase correctly) that it is the &lt;em&gt;process&lt;/em&gt; that decreases our propensities to cause ourselves pain, rather than the &lt;em&gt;acheivement&lt;/em&gt; of a goal, but by defining enlightenment separately you seem to be separating it from the process somehow, which is isn&amp;#039;t.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, practically speaking, I feel it&amp;#039;s important to understand that there can be moments in life (generally arrived at through some kind of practice, but sometimes not) experienced in normal, linear time where humans can hit a developmental stage that is generally agreed to be some kind of &amp;#034;enlightenment&amp;#034;. Hitting these points &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt; make a difference in our lives, just not in the way many would hope or expect due the kind of education most humans have about these potentials and the results of moving towards these potentials.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yeh...saying stuff like &amp;#034;Enlightenment itself will do absolutely nothing for you...&amp;#034; and that &amp;#034;it&amp;#039;s irrelevant to your life&amp;#034; are nice sound bites, but come with their own problems that I think you only partially address in your post.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thom</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:18:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891497</guid> <dc:creator>Thom W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T10:18:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891445</link> <description>thanks for that Stian, be-a-uti-ful...and just to pigyback on Bagpuss&amp;#039; joke; excuse me, I think someone else just posted something...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/cold.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:57:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891445</guid> <dc:creator>Andrew .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T09:57:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891407</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;like refreshing the recent posts page of this forum every 5 minutes&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There should be a specific practice to counteract this unwholesome mind state!</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:42:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891407</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T09:42:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891276</link> <description>Enlightenment itself will do absolutely nothing for you. (Wouldn&amp;#039;t it be cool if I just ended the post here?). The process of attaining enlightenment can do lots of stuff for you. Here&amp;#039;s how I see it:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Two perspectives:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Negative: There are things standing in the way of &amp;#039;enlightenment&amp;#039;. Through practice you can diminish and remove these things until there is sufficient lack of things standing in the way of &amp;#039;enlightenment&amp;#039; for you to suddenly be enlightened. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Positive: There are certain insights one can have that enables one to &amp;#039;see clearly&amp;#039;. After sufficient clarity, you &amp;#039;get it&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not one specific practice actually gets you enlightened - it&amp;#039;s a concerted effort best described as skillfully nurturing the right conditions of/for awakening. These practices (e.g. concentration practices) should simultaneously be a practice for itself, and a practice within a larger perspective. Yeah, sure, you&amp;#039;ll get enlightened sometime, but realize that the practice actually doesn&amp;#039;t get you enlightened. Therefore you need an ulterior motive to practice, and that motivation should be intimately connected with what a practice actually does for you (like dramatically increasing your skill of concentration).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example: The eight jhanas, to me, is simultaneously a vehicle for enlightenment, but also skillful means of living. By hanging out in jhana, I get my dopamine/serotonin/pleasure fix. This way I won&amp;#039;t go unskillfully looking for a fix &amp;#039;outside&amp;#039; of myself: &lt;br /&gt;- social status (e.g. putting other people down)&lt;br /&gt;- entertainment (oh, what wonders it does for attention /sarcasm)&lt;br /&gt;- obsessive past-times (like refreshing the recent posts page of this forum every 5 minutes)&lt;br /&gt;- sticky-icky relationships (being &amp;#039;needy&amp;#039; to the detriment of all parties involved)&lt;br /&gt;- seeking comfort in food&lt;br /&gt;- stimulating-simulating good/bad emotions for a &amp;#039;rush&amp;#039; (morbid entertainment, porn, risky stunts)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A breakthrough for me was when I saw how the vast pool of practices in wisdom/insight/spiritual traditions are practices for the &amp;#039;brain&amp;#039;, not the &amp;#039;soul&amp;#039;. In my view, our kind and awesome Overlord Daniel Ingram has a fetish for certain types of experiences - just like I have a pronounced interest in programming and many of it&amp;#039;s aspects, so Dan has a pronounced interest in concentration and many of it&amp;#039;s aspects. Considering &lt;em&gt;only this&lt;/em&gt;, he is not anymore enlightened than me, not even a little bit. It just so happens that his interest in concentration is more conducive to enlightenment than my interest in programming.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The practice for enlightenment is a pastime with a specific set of advantages/benefits and disadvantages/harm. It has been meticulously refined and improved over the millennia to be as skillful and conducive to enlightenment as possible. But it doesn&amp;#039;t produce enlightenment, it produces a person receptive to the grace of enlightenment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Enlightenment doesn&amp;#039;t &lt;em&gt;fix you&lt;/em&gt; and it is utterly irrelevant to &lt;em&gt;your life&lt;/em&gt;. But the practice leading up to it can definitely improve your life tremendously.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Matt N:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I can still see no self quite evidently, but I don&amp;#039;t see any benefit to it. Maybe I blame myself less because I realize there really is no me, its just a series of images and sounds playing in my mind in the moment. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a little easier to be present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My anxiety and inability to relax are still here though. Bad emotional control and understanding are still there. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You have been tricked into believing that enlightenment fixes you. It doesn&amp;#039;t. There are practices for you to do that will diminish and possibly remove anxiety, inability to relax and improve emotional control and understanding. I would also like to add that you are very probably not enlightened, at least by the usual standards of this forum.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If &amp;#039;seeing no self&amp;#039; has no benefit to you, then you have most likely not gained any insight of anatta (&amp;#039;seeing not-self&amp;#039;). If whatever perception you had is not beneficial to you, drop it. Find something that is simultaneously less deluded than your current view and also beneficial to you. Help yourself, but know that a lot of people have tried to help themselves throughout history, and some of them came up with pretty nice stuff - so don&amp;#039;t go and needlessly re-invent the wheel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Matt N:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;What real benefit is there for enlightenment then?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The benefit of enlightenment is nothing measurable. The foregone weeding out of nasty habits and obsessiveness - that is the benefit. Enlightenment is a save point. If you have no progress to save, loading the save point produces no progress.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paraphrasing Bill Hamilton:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Enlightenment is not like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It&amp;#039;s more like you&amp;#039;ve been picking up gold pieces all along the way and enlightenment is just a pot to keep them in.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;$0.2&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;PS: I don&amp;#039;t want to get into this in this post, but will say that if you go on spiritual shopping, eventually it becomes clear that different people speak of different things. There are certain distinctions that can be helpful to know about, but seeing that you might not yet have been confused by that whole mess, I keep it out of this post.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Enlightenment is not haphazard, nor is it ultimately structured. Between deterministic causation (this practice produces enlightenment) and divine grace (no grace, no enlightenment) lies the middle way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;$0.4</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:20:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891276</guid> <dc:creator>Stian Gudmundsen Høiland</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T09:20:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Meditation benefits trump enlightenment through pointing?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891260</link> <description>Wondering peoples thoughts. I experienced no self from direct pointing about half a year ago after a year of meditation practices. Since then my meditation practice dropped for awhile.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can still see no self quite evidently, but I don&amp;#039;t see any benefit to it. Maybe I blame myself less because I realize there really is no me, its just a series of images and sounds playing in my mind in the moment. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a little easier to be present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My anxiety and inability to relax are still here though. Bad emotional control and understanding are still there. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In fact they&amp;#039;ve gotten worse without meditating. Meditation was helping these things, realization of no self does not seem to really do anything for them. They were the reasons for beginning meditation, and as a supposed end point for meditation, I guess I thought enlightenment would mean some change in those factors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What real benefit is there for enlightenment then? My thoughts lately seem to say that the things cultivated over time with meditation are more important than simply understanding the nature of consciousness.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:38:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2891260</guid> <dc:creator>Matt N</dc:creator> <dc:date>2012-02-13T08:38:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: No self......So what</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2564111</link> <description>Sorry I can&amp;#039;t remember... did I ask anything? What thread are you talking about?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 07:28:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2564111</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-12-15T07:28:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: New Direct Pointing website/forum - Liberation Unleashed</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2283199</link> <description>Hey Elena,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your enthusiasm is to be commended. Hope you have landed on your feet after losing your apartment to fire. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it might be wise not to brand all those who come through the direct pointing process as automatically &amp;#039;entering the stream&amp;#039; as it may not be that people seeing &amp;#034;no-self&amp;#034; are actually stream enterers and may have just triggered the AP. Stinking of &amp;#039;enlightenment&amp;#039; when not really &amp;#039;enlightened&amp;#039; is a trap that often leads to yogis stagnating. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;2281223"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2281223&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 13:33:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2283199</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-10-01T13:33:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: New Direct Pointing website/forum - Liberation Unleashed</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2282999</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;Hey, friends! I am fine! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Visisitudes of life&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Much love to all. Will be back soon with direct pointing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;New website and forum going very well - many people joining and get benefit of Stream Entry. Anyone feel he is on the brink? Need just a little push - come and get guided!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We will direct your attention until you are in the Stream. &lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2011 08:16:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2282999</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-10-01T08:16:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: New Direct Pointing website/forum - Liberation Unleashed</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2251760</link> <description>Hi guys, could you help me to spread a message. there was a fire in Elena&amp;#039;s house. she is ok, but her house burned down, cat is dead. that happened on the opening nigth of the liberation unleashed website. crazy. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We can all help Elena by sending her money, in this situation, anything helps. Please donate as much as you can. I haven&amp;#039;t got her address, all i know, she is in New York. So no things yet...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;this is Elena&amp;#039;s email :&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;becomelight@gmail.com&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;go to paypal, log in, press &amp;#039;Send money&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;enter Her email, your email, amount, press tab Personal, make sure it&amp;#039;s gift, press Send at the bottom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ilona</description> <pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:14:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2251760</guid> <dc:creator>Ilona c</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-23T19:14:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>New Direct Pointing website/forum - Liberation Unleashed</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2239457</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;Designed specifically for meditators stuck in the search and witness stage. Sister of Ruthless Truth, without ruthlessness - clear, direct, compassionate pointing. Same guys working - different approach.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Look here: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;liberationunleashed1&amp;#x2e;artisteer&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Liberation Unleashed&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And the forum where you can register and get one-one-one direct pointing is here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;liberationunleashed&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;nation&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php"&gt;Liberation Nation &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyone who are interested to be guided one on one or by the group of experienced guides - please register, make a new thread, write everything you want us to know - you meditation experience, your life experience, where do you feel you are stuck or what do you want us to help you with - anything that comes to your mind. We will &amp;#034;take your hand and walk you through the Gate&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2011 05:06:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2239457</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-19T05:06:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2219209</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;Not RT anymore. Left. LIberation Unleashed - LU. Website in works. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Have new work done:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;09&amp;#x2f;1-1-holy-shit-before-i-nothing-is&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Serious Theravada practitioner work with Direct Pointing. Done.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Getting a little tired here. Decided to go to sit 10 day vipassana. To rest and get some equanimity. Love you all. Thank you for providing space here to share!&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 06:56:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2219209</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-12T06:56:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: No self......So what</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2211090</link> <description>Hey, I did answered you line by line what you asked in another thread. Where are you, Eternal Now?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 07:40:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2211090</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-07T07:40:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202018</link> <description>And Tommy, hi. I don&amp;#039;t know how to answer you. Yes, I am part of RT, but RT is not one guy and not one way. Sorry you got this impression, but we all different, with different experiences: life and practice, different inclinations, so we all do it in the ways we are inspired. If you really read even one of my threads, you will see that i am not ciaran, but the intention is the same - point to the illusion. They call me and Ilona steel hand in velvet glove. And they are right. There is much compassion, care, sometimes feelings, but at the same time nothing will move me from that narrow place of truth - nothing - and it includes confusion, BS, ego games, and any of the variations that human mind can produce as thoughts, emotions, feelings - nothing will move me out of the place of seeing the truth. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hugs. Elena</description> <pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 05:36:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202018</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-03T05:36:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202010</link> <description>Hey, NA! I am working on seeing the correlation.I think, Daniel Ingram will be the best resource for this question since he is an &amp;#034;expert&amp;#034;in both. I can&amp;#039;t say for sure, because with Vipassana I didn&amp;#039;t get to anatta. I had states, but not realization. And with direct pointing I got to anatta, but I can&amp;#039;t just disregard my vipassana experience before that. So I hope Daniel can answer your question. And I am still working on understanding how two methods relate.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 05:21:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202010</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-03T05:21:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ordained Buddhist minister works with Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202007</link> <description>Che, what you call rude is actually direct. Are zen master rude when he sends confused student back to 14 hours a day sitting and looking and don&amp;#039;t explain a thing? Is he rude when he slaps him with the stick on the back in a really dark zendo at night? What do you think is going in the mind of the master when he gives his student un-solvable koan that makes his student go nuts for months? Ponder on it, and come back to chat, ok?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 05:07:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202007</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-03T05:07:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What we do on Ruthless Truth. Gate, Stream and etc.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202003</link> <description>Hi, Che! Did you look up my other posts? Please do - this will explain you what you asked. Please come back after you read and we will talk, ok? Let me give you a link here where to read, this for example: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;professor-i-am-ready-please-take-my&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Professor 72 y.o 46 years of Soto Zen - liberation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and your tone is fine. And dissolution is great to be in&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;!</description> <pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 05:03:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2202003</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-09-03T05:03:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2197123</link> <description>Does anyone have an idea of how RT/Direct pointing would fit in with vipassana progress of insight stuff? They could be altogether different and unrelated, but this seems unlikely as both have the stated goal of seeing through the illusion of self. As I understand, fruitions are not experienced with direct pointing. Is the insight from vipassana culminating in stream entry a strict superset of the insight from direct pointing - seeing through self plus something more? Or, otherwise, are fruitions just a big red herring?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:19:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2197123</guid> <dc:creator>N A</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T17:19:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196375</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;And I wish you sort your staff out, Tommy. I would suggest the same technique here: invite those strong feelings about ciaran closer, to the point of suffocation - really close. Then, burning in the whole being, ask the feeling what it has for you. You know, its not about ciaran, this feeling is impersonal, it just there - just there - so you ask the feeling what is that it has for you to show, what it is that you need to see. You ask, and then shut down your head. Do not give the thoughts tell you, start screaming in the head. You become very quite. And you listen to the answer, You will get it. It will be absolutely tailored for your embodiment. You never get resolution better then asking the feeling that is present what wisdom it has for you here and now. It can be in a different form, but mostly there will be instant clarity and relaxation in the feeling, and not temporary. There is nothing mystical-shmystical here. If you saw that self does not exist, no need for me to explain the mechanism. Just try to do it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just to clarify, I have no feelings whatsoever towards Ciaran, strong or otherwise. The points I mentioned were based in fact, not opinion and each can be verified by reading Ciarans material. I was interested in whether or not you were working as part of his &amp;#039;team&amp;#039; and pushing his philosophy at the expense of a balanced, empirically validated view of other meditative traditions. However your explanation, which I appreciate, suggests that you, like the rest of us on here, just want to show people that this is possible and show another way to go about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not that it really matters, but I should also point out that my being &amp;#034;liberated&amp;#034; was confirmed on RT, and that my experience has not consisted of the illusion of a self for quite some time now. When I mention &amp;#034;projection&amp;#034; I&amp;#039;m talking about specific psychological/physiological patterns which are currently being dismantled as part of my current practice, I should have perhaps made this clearer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for taking the time to reply and I wish you all the very best with whatever comes you way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;T</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:00:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196375</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T10:00:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What we do on Ruthless Truth. Gate, Stream and etc.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196302</link> <description>So if I understand correctly (?) you do not practice insight meditation in any form but rather talk your selves into liberation.&lt;br /&gt;Is this pointing the same as practicing Koan &amp;#034;Who Am I&amp;#034;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am not sure how this Direct Pointing works. I had an impression that liberation is far from the Rational Mind pondering.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;No-self ... one of the 3 Characteristics. An important one. Can one talk itself into it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Im in a Dissolution stage right now so please excuse the floaty tone &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am lending my ear to you Elena &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Che</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:31:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196302</guid> <dc:creator>Che Guebuddha</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T08:31:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ordained Buddhist minister works with Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196287</link> <description>Elena thanks for posting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was looking into this Dirrect Pointing but couldnt understand it. I was even over at Ruthless Truth and just cant understand how being rude to one another can lead to liberation. I too am rude so not that I mind but how can one l talk my self into liberation?&lt;br /&gt;Are you saying that insight meditation isnt necessery? Just look into the No-sel and thats it. Right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you dont mind please elaborate a bit on this so I can understand it &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; Thank you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Che</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:17:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196287</guid> <dc:creator>Che Guebuddha</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T08:17:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196229</link> <description>Hi Elena,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thanks for the posts and efforts to get this out there. thinking about it and checking out the Ruthless Truth site again, I realised that alot of my early experiences where infact Direct Pointing fuelled. A mate of mine that worked with me on the building site was into Neale Donald Walsh at the time and kept pushing me and contradicting me while we were talking about god and the like. I ended up really confronting alot of fear and broke out of the mould I had been in all my life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s funny isn&amp;#039;t it, sometimes all it needs is a name, and we get attached to this label or that, when the process remains the same; waking up!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;cheers&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 05:33:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196229</guid> <dc:creator>Andrew .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T05:33:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196006</link> <description>I see this thread was moved. Ok, great. Thank you, administrator. Also this last post about Theravada teacher &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;ordained-buddhist-minister-i-see-it-as&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Shane W.&lt;/a&gt;I want to add here. He just wrote to me to put his name in a blog. He doesn&amp;#039;t want to hide behind a letter. He is very interested to contact Daniel Ingram. I told him that Daniel was the only one who saw value in this method AND didn&amp;#039;t have fear. Yes, you won&amp;#039;t believe guys, but this actually scares teachers or heads of the spiritual groups, because it works. I have couple of long conversations with heads of spiritual groups, and while talking these teachers would really understand the compassion and the movement of sharing behind this work. As soon as we finish, I am not sure what happening, maybe, as you, Tommy, said some personal associations, or whatever, they immediately start to release statements of not accepting and finding faults, and make up stories, and get some buried findings on RT, and so on. The resistance is huge. It&amp;#039;s really big. As I am an emotional &amp;#034;embodiement&amp;#034;, I get lot&amp;#039;s of sensations and emotions to look into, and ask too. That is how I saw that this is actually impersonal phenomena, just like thoughts. So I am going to change his name in the post today. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And here is the link to his center:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;meditationlearningcenter&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;SWilson&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.meditationlearningcenter.com/SWilson.html&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:42:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2196006</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T04:42:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195936</link> <description>Tommy, I appreciate. We all have our own intentions. Ciaran has big picture in mind. I don&amp;#039;t have a clear picture. I just do it, I have no idea how in the world it happened to me. I got helped on RT, and I see that what RT does is nobble, even though many use fowl language, but it is necessary sometimes, you know how difficult to shake somebody from habitual ways. As time went by people were finding their own ways. Mine apparently is very effective, as I worked with more then 20 people by now, and successfully. I would never imagined I could do it, English is my second language, and I do not get involved into intellectual debates. But apparently my extensive experience in Vipassana and some non-duality techniques work to direct the looking. Then I do post my works, yes, how else people can find out that it is available? And I point to classical meditation experience here on this site to people who stuck in their meditation. Those who do not, and feel satisfied with their practice and life, they won&amp;#039;t even notice what I post, and its perfectly fine. But who resonate, then I can help. So yes, I do emphasize meditation experience here, only to show that it doesn&amp;#039;t matter how many years one sits, liberation from this illusion always available now. And sometimes those who sat a lot developed really big spiritual self that sits, so to speak. So for them also good to see - it doesn&amp;#039;t matter how many years you sit if you still think this is what &amp;#034;you do&amp;#034;. That is the intention. Tell you the truth, I don&amp;#039;t know how long and in what format I will continue to do this. I was really busy these couple of months, I kind of abandoned my family business. I need to pick it up, and this may change things. Also I may only decide to do work with feelings, and not to do &amp;#034;gate work&amp;#034;, I am not sure right now. It&amp;#039;s all kinda rolling in it&amp;#039;s own way, independent of &amp;#034;my decision&amp;#034;, I don&amp;#039;t really even have that anymore. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And I wish you sort your staff out, Tommy. I would suggest the same technique here: invite those strong feelings about ciaran closer, to the point of suffocation - really close. Then, burning in the whole being, ask the feeling what it has for you. You know, its not about ciaran, this feeling is impersonal, it just there - just there - so you ask the feeling what is that it has for you to show, what it is that you need to see. You ask, and then shut down your head. Do not give the thoughts tell you, start screaming in the head. You become very quite. And you listen to the answer, You will get it. It will be absolutely tailored for your embodiment. You never get resolution better then asking the feeling that is present what wisdom it has for you here and now. It can be in a different form, but mostly there will be instant clarity and relaxation in the feeling, and not temporary. There is nothing mystical-shmystical here. If you saw that self does not exist, no need for me to explain the mechanism. Just try to do it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hugs, E,</description> <pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:10:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195936</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-31T04:10:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195694</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Agenda only to show it is possible. This man amazed me with &amp;#034;beginner mind&amp;#034; even though he had so much experience and is involved with teaching. That&amp;#039;s all it is. I highlight in each work something that s unique. This was unique about this particular man, and amazing at the same time. For me. I met many teachers of meditation locked in their way and identity, so it was really refreshing. Why I posted in another thread? Because originally I had this one, and then Daniel created Direct Pointing section. if this one can be moved to that section, will be better, but for now I post sometimes there too not to have it empty. I know that putting things in the face can bring a reaction in some, but it also draw others attention, and they see it is possible. I would surely be grateful if I get across something that would point me where to look, while I was sitting years and years in retreats, and were told that the path is thousands of lifetimes long. So, I hope you, Tommy, won&amp;#039;t be that hard on me.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please don&amp;#039;t take the tone of my writing as confrontational or anything, it&amp;#039;s not intentional, I&amp;#039;m genuinely interested in hearing what you&amp;#039;ve got to say. When I mentioned an agenda I was specifically talking about the way you put the emphasis, on more than one occasion, on the fact that someone has unsuccessfully practiced within a tradition only to make progress when introduced to direct pointing. The fact that you&amp;#039;ve come over from RT, where Ciaran has been very vocal about his desire for an &amp;#034;industrialized&amp;#034; approach towards awakening, his dislike of meditation or any other practice beyond direct pointing, and his efforts to spread the word about RT on other sites, caused me to question whether you were perhaps engaged in some sort of subversive activity in an attempt to disparage meditative practice and propagate Ciarans agenda.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t doubt the effectiveness of direct pointing, and your desire to help others to wake up is clearly genuine and heartfelt. I&amp;#039;m probably projecting some of my own shit onto the whole thing so don&amp;#039;t take this as a personal attack or anything, I was just interested in what you&amp;#039;re doing and the way you go about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Peace.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:09:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195694</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T23:09:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195365</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Elena Joy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if you really read the thread, Nikolai, you will see that there were nothing that you can label with one label &amp;#034;RT&amp;#034; or etc there. I use my own &amp;#034;sense&amp;#034; every time I approach somebody. Nobody in RT works with hidden feelings and graspings in a feeling the way I do it. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Elena,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fair call. My mistake. Keep doing what you are doing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just a short anecdote from my own experience. I started meditating in the Goenka tradition in 2000. Was quite hardcore. Went and lived at a Goenka centre for over a year, went to live near Goenkaji in Igatpuri, India for 10 months, sat well over 12 or so courses, a couple of 20 days, lots and lots of serving of courses. I got very good at being equanimous. It changed me quite a bit. The sankaras were reigned in, and I developed good healthy mental habits. The mind was purified somewhat. I think I did a lot of work on the physio-energetic development within the body in that time. But I never got to 1st path (stream entry) in those 8 years of being a Goenka yogi. Not until I added mahasi noting to the mix and started looking and investigating into the illusory &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; head on. This was all upon coming in contact with Daniel and the DhO. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do believe many yogis spend years developing their paramis but fall just short of tipping the balance towards stream entry. There is benefit to practicing day in and out though without getting 1st path. I made extremely fast progress through the technical paths after getting 1st path (6 months to MCTB 4th path) and then a year from MCTB 4th path to what appears to be af (within 4 months of actualist inspired practice). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The skills and access to subtle realities of mind and body that were gained over the 8 years immersed in the Goenka tradition served me well and were definitely not a waste of time. If I had not done the preparatory work, I would perhaps have stalled at 1st path or maybe never have gotten there to begin with and certainly wouldn&amp;#039;t have taken so short a time to get where I now am. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:27:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195365</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T21:27:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195332</link> <description>Agenda only to show it is possible. This man amazed me with &amp;#034;beginner mind&amp;#034; even though he had so much experience and is involved with teaching. That&amp;#039;s all it is. I highlight in each work something that s unique. This was unique about this particular man, and amazing at the same time. For me. I met many teachers of meditation locked in their way and identity, so it was really refreshing. Why I posted in another thread? Because originally I had this one, and then Daniel created Direct Pointing section. if this one can be moved to that section, will be better, but for now I post sometimes there too not to have it empty. I know that putting things in the face can bring a reaction in some, but it also draw others attention, and they see it is possible. I would surely be grateful if I get across something that would point me where to look, while I was sitting years and years in retreats, and were told that the path is thousands of lifetimes long. So, I hope you, Tommy, won&amp;#039;t be that hard on me. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if you really read the thread, Nikolai, you will see that there were nothing that you can label with one label &amp;#034;RT&amp;#034; or etc there. I use my own &amp;#034;sense&amp;#034; every time I approach somebody. Nobody in RT works with hidden feelings and graspings in a feeling the way I do it. All do it in their own way. I use some techniques from different teachers that are mostly unknown, like Pamela Wilson. She is disciple of Robert Adams who was direct disciple of Ramana Maharshi. She and I became friends sometime ago because I resonated with her way from the first time I met her. So I guess, I combine classical vipassana with working with feelings in the Pamela&amp;#039;s way and my own ability to keep focus very narrow. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I never know what I can do, what I will be doing, and will it be some result at the end. And still I don&amp;#039;t really know what I do. But apparently people write to me, some conversation happens, people get benefits, I get feeling of appreciation that I have time at the moment and something that helps them. This thing just happening, whatever comes up in the moment. And there is no contradiction with Dho or anything else. I am just sharing my take on direct pointing. How long, I am not sure, in what way in a future - have no idea. Things fall on my lap, and I sort them as they fall&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:23:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195332</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T20:23:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195317</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;S. to me: I have been practicing meditation&lt;br /&gt;consistently for over fifteen years and have been teaching meditation&lt;br /&gt;and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist&lt;br /&gt;minister&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why is this important? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why do you mention it on this thread, and then again on a seperate thread with emphasis on the fact that this person has, clearly unsuccessfully and probably due to poor practice, followed a Buddhist path for however many years?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would I be incorrect in stating that you have an agenda here? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If so, come out with it and talk about it openly rather than just hinting at it.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:53:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2195317</guid> <dc:creator>Tommy M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T19:53:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194801</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Elena Joy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;S. to me: I have been practicing meditation&lt;br /&gt;consistently for over fifteen years and &lt;strong&gt;have been teaching meditation&lt;br /&gt;and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist&lt;br /&gt;minister,&lt;/strong&gt; but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism.&lt;br /&gt;I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to&lt;br /&gt;ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds&lt;br /&gt;of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and&lt;br /&gt;lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to&lt;br /&gt;my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be&lt;br /&gt;found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here it is:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;ordained-buddhist-minister-i-see-it-as&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Ordained Buddhist Minister: I see it as the opportunity of lifetimes&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I was in Burma ages ago, I saw Buddhist monks who had been monks for a while smoking ciggies, lifting weights, chatting, doing stuff that didn&amp;#039;t seem aimed towards release. Being a buddhist minister, monk, hardcore follower of this teacher or that teacher is no guarantee of release from suffering even after years of so called practice. Many people to my knowledge are waking up. The DhO is full of examples, RT aside. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:56:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194801</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T14:56:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Theravada meditation teacher works with Direct Pointing</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194141</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;S. to me: I have been practicing meditation&lt;br /&gt;consistently for over fifteen years and &lt;strong&gt;have been teaching meditation&lt;br /&gt;and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist&lt;br /&gt;minister,&lt;/strong&gt; but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism.&lt;br /&gt;I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to&lt;br /&gt;ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds&lt;br /&gt;of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and&lt;br /&gt;lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to&lt;br /&gt;my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be&lt;br /&gt;found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;ordained-buddhist-minister-i-see-it-as&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Ordained Buddhist Minister: I see it as the opportunity of lifetimes&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:08:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194141</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T08:08:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194130</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;S. to me: I have been practicing meditation&lt;br /&gt;consistently for over fifteen years and &lt;strong&gt;have been teaching meditation&lt;br /&gt;and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist&lt;br /&gt;minister,&lt;/strong&gt; but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism.&lt;br /&gt;I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to&lt;br /&gt;ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds&lt;br /&gt;of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and&lt;br /&gt;lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to&lt;br /&gt;my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be&lt;br /&gt;found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here it is:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;completehumanity&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;08&amp;#x2f;ordained-buddhist-minister-i-see-it-as&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;Ordained Buddhist Minister: I see it as the opportunity of lifetimes&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:05:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2194130</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-30T08:05:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2185188</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Rich N:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Elena...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen is the closest I&amp;#039;ve got to a &amp;#034;guru&amp;#034;, I&amp;#039;ve watched everything he&amp;#039;s got on YouTube at least once. I&amp;#039;m familiar with that video. He doesn&amp;#039;t say at any point that there is an instant solution which does not require any previous practice.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Look up in his new structure of his teaching - he has different categories. Not all of them require meditation experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Ciaran Healy&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;method&amp;#034; to enlightenment seems to be almost just a philosophical decision that there is no such thing as self. I appologise if we&amp;#039;re not talking about the same thing here... I googled Direct Pointing and that lead to be Ruthless Truth which led me to Ciaran... who as it turns out is someone I&amp;#039;m already quite familiar with from 6 or 7 years ago for something called the &amp;#034;Apocolypse Opener&amp;#034; which is actually a way of meeting women in nightclubs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;6-7 years ago, you say? And who knows what he did besides that. Read his Thunder and Sunshine on his blog - you get more wider view how he was evolving. He is not cookie cutter-ed, that&amp;#039;s for sure.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Even in the case of Eckhart Tolle who almost makes it seem like all that&amp;#039;s required is a decision to live in the moment and that&amp;#039;s the job done, he actually meditated and still meditates for long durations of time on a regular basis. His book describes an over-night change, but it doesn&amp;#039;t mention the years of preparation which set him up to have it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am not much familiar with Eckhart. I never head he was seriously meditated before his awakening. But again, I am not familiar. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;As much as I would love for there to be a way through like this, I&amp;#039;m skeptical because I&amp;#039;m not convinced enlightenment and destruction of the self can happen without thousands of hours of chipping away. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;then for you it will be thousands of hours&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The truth is I have ALREADY ACCEPTED that there is no self, and I&amp;#039;m ALREADY PREPARED to let go of my identity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;nothing needs to be accepted. Please, please do not accept anything - find out for yourself! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;But that logical acceptance aside, I do not feel free, &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;here you go - that&amp;#039;s right&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;and even though I have moments with more self, and less self, &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That is not possible. Self does not exist. Not more self, not less self. Look if possible to have less or more of Unicorn in your room. Or it&amp;#039;s just a thought, an image that in actuality does not exist? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and even though I am even now becoming familiar with a &amp;#034;sense&amp;#034; of what &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; actually tastes like... there has been no sudden explosion or dissolution for me. I feel extremely trapped and it seems that regardless of my will to let go of who I am...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;this is very honest. And you can see the suffering in it. Right there - dukkha. When sense of self is the owner of the house - he make believe he is exist in actuality. But because this is false, and in reality there is no self - you feel the turmoil. So find out the truth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;to accept that there is no observed and no cause but infact just experience... it doesn&amp;#039;t matter. I can&amp;#039;t do it, because I can&amp;#039;t see it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;very true. You know what will help you - your honesty and non-acceptance of what you can&amp;#039;t see for yourself. Good. very good. Do not accept - dig deeper.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;And to be honest... my knowledge on this subject and my intuition tells me the reason why I can&amp;#039;t do it is because I simply do not have the meditative skill ..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To see the illusion of the self, meditative skills not necessary. For some - needed to go through thousand of hours, for some - none. What is depends on I don&amp;#039;t know, maybe Daniel Ingram knows, I would love to hear on this from him. For me was necessary, for some reason, but for some others not ( my friend Ilona on this forum, for example).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I haven&amp;#039;t yet got the clarity or focus necessary to spilt up the illusive self and for &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; to dissolve permanently into nothing more than sensory experience The answer to that... is daily practice for an indeterminate amount of time..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The way you are talking about is very long. There is shorter way to see the non-existence of the self. If you watch all the Shinzen Young, in one of his videos he explicitly said that his awakening was not with any of his practices: vipassana or zen ot vajrayana, but with inner inquiry method, similar to direct pointing - look into your immediate experience and tell the truth about it. You can do whatever you want after that - you can meditate your thousand hours, why not if you will be drown to it. BUT there will be monumental difference who/what is meditating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wish it were more simple, but I do not believe it. If you have something I can do which you think will change that I am prepared to do it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Consider meditation for mind purification and direct pointing or inner inquiry for finding the truth right now. If you decide, email me completehumanity at gmail dot com, if I am free at the moment, I will help you to keep the direction where and how to look.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The way I see enlightenment, and the way it most plausibly appears... is that it&amp;#039;s an experience you have once you have developed a sufficient level of specific mental skills... those skills you development in meditation. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Look, how you are one step forward and one back - I don&amp;#039;t believe, but I am willing to try, but it&amp;#039;s not possible, blah, blah - and the mind will find excuses, sure. It&amp;#039;s a hide-and-seek game.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;How you have that experience... well it appears there are many ways. Asking &amp;#034;Who am I&amp;#034; over and over... noting... zen... and so on... but the question of whether you can have that big E experience without building up an intensely awesome set of meditative-related mental skills first? I doubt it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Big E experience - what&amp;#039;s that? How can you now know what is that? Is that even possible. So look honestly - right here - you know its not possible, but you keep having this image of Big E alive. It&amp;#039;s false. False image. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I can&amp;#039;t believe that thousands and thousands of years of monks experimenting with this would have missed the short-cut and instead took the long option of meditating for 10 hours a day if that were a possibility.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some were taking that option, yes. Like Ramana Maharshi, for example. Again, this I am not sure why for some thousands of hours on the bank of the river needed to enter the stream and for some - they just jump in. It&amp;#039;s not a choice anyways, it&amp;#039;s what is happening. So what is happening for you is what is, just notice and enjoy the unfolding.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:04:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2185188</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-25T20:04:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2181875</link> <description>Hi Elena...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen is the closest I&amp;#039;ve got to a &amp;#034;guru&amp;#034;, I&amp;#039;ve watched everything he&amp;#039;s got on YouTube at least once. I&amp;#039;m familiar with that video. He doesn&amp;#039;t say at any point that there is an instant solution which does not require any previous practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ciaran Healy&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;method&amp;#034; to enlightenment seems to be almost just a philosophical decision that there is no such thing as self. I appologise if we&amp;#039;re not talking about the same thing here... I googled Direct Pointing and that lead to be Ruthless Truth which led me to Ciaran... who as it turns out is someone I&amp;#039;m already quite familiar with from 6 or 7 years ago for something called the &amp;#034;Apocolypse Opener&amp;#034; which is actually a way of meeting women in nightclubs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Even in the case of Eckhart Tolle who almost makes it seem like all that&amp;#039;s required is a decision to live in the moment and that&amp;#039;s the job done, he actually meditated and still meditates for long durations of time on a regular basis. His book describes an over-night change, but it doesn&amp;#039;t mention the years of preparation which set him up to have it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As much as I would love for there to be a way through like this, I&amp;#039;m skeptical because I&amp;#039;m not convinced enlightenment and destruction of the self can happen without thousands of hours of chipping away. The truth is I have ALREADY ACCEPTED that there is no self, and I&amp;#039;m ALREADY PREPARED to let go of my identity. But that logical acceptance aside, I do not feel free, and even though I have moments with more self, and less self, and even though I am even now becomming familiar with a &amp;#034;sense&amp;#034; of what &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; actually tastes like... there has been no sudden explosion or dissolution for me. I feel extremely trapped and it seems that regardless of my will to let go of who I am... to accept that there is no observed and no cause but infact just experience... it doesn&amp;#039;t matter. I can&amp;#039;t do it, because I can&amp;#039;t see it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And to be honest... my knowledge on this subject and my intution tells me the reason why I can&amp;#039;t do it is because I simply do not have the meditative skill ... I haven&amp;#039;t yet got the clarity or focus necesary to spilt up the illusive self and for &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; to dissolve permenantly into nothing more than sensory experience. The answer to that... is daily practice for an indeterminate ammount of time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wish it were more simple, but I do not beleive it. If you have something I cann do which you think will change that I am prepared to do it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The way I see enlightenment, and the way it most plausibly appears... is that it&amp;#039;s an experience you have once you have developed a sufficient level of specific mental skills... those skills you development in meditation. How you have that experience... well it appears there are many ways. Asking &amp;#034;Who am I&amp;#034; over and over... noting... zen... and so on... but the question of whether you can have that big E experience without building up an intensley awesome set of meditative-related mental skills first? I doubt it. I can&amp;#039;t believe that thousands and thousands of years of monks experimenting with this would have missed the short-cut and instead took the long option of meditating for 10 hours a day if that were a possibility.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:36:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2181875</guid> <dc:creator>Rich -</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-24T14:36:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2180904</link> <description>Hi, Rich! I would love Daniel talk more too! I hope he will. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From myself I will share this video of one of my teachers - Shinzen Young:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;ZYmGdWY5ZWM"&gt;Many facets of Enlightenment&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:33:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=2180904</guid> <dc:creator>Elena Joy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2011-08-23T21:33:14Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 