<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Shinzen Young</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=3024734</link> <description>Stuff about Shinzen can go here, this section created by request.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:41:16 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:41:16Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606002</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jeremy May:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Do you want to have your own sudden awakening?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Colleen has it.  She&amp;#039;s had it in a little box under her bed.  She&amp;#039;s kept it safe for you to give to you on your Birthday.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ha!   Happy Birthday everybody!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can take a person to awakening but you can&amp;#039;t make him drink  :-))&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I used to do this for awhile when I had my own realizations of my own oneness and allness simultaneously.  I simply asked myself, &amp;#034;What am I?&amp;#034; and the answer was forthright.   Then I started running that answer on some people I was working with as a spiritual psychotherapist.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One person got the same result and another person started hearing organ music and did not wish me to ask that question any further (it was a repetitive question until they arrived).   Neither one took up any practice as a result, although they did become better at their own game of life. So I stopped doing that and now only work with people who need an orientation into my same practices because I am at such a low level that I can still relate to newbies&amp;#039; issues.  That&amp;#039;s three people and I enjoyed it very much -- as much as they did.   My pay is seeing them grok it -- they can now safely take apart their own mind and have fun doing it. Nirvana.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jeremy and I in our own ways still love to play our games, don&amp;#039;t we.   Joy to you and me and to all our brothers and sisters.    &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;QtYnCmw2CWE"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtYnCmw2CWE&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 13:54:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606002</guid> <dc:creator>Colleen Karalee Peltomaa</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T13:54:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605702</link> <description>Do you want to have your own sudden awakening?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Colleen has it.  She&amp;#039;s had it in a little box under her bed.  She&amp;#039;s kept it safe for you to give to you on your Birthday.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 23:48:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605702</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T23:48:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602448</link> <description>Just listened to the most recent Batgap interview by Judith Blackstone, a &amp;#034;non-dual, embodyment&amp;#034; teacher. She really warned against trying to eradicate the self, saying that it can lead to a form of dissassociation that can have harmful consequences. She talked a lot about tapping into &amp;#034;fundamental consciousness&amp;#034; and getting deep in the body to let go of harmful patterns acquired in childhood. On the self aspect, she gave an anecdote of a Zen monk asking her: &amp;#034;if you feel pain in your knee, is it your pain, or is it just pain?&amp;#034;, to which she answered &amp;#034;it is my pain&amp;#034;. I am not really sure how she can be &amp;#034;non-dual&amp;#034; and still believe in a separate self. Her position is kind of confusing. </description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:28:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602448</guid> <dc:creator>Jason Snyder</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T17:28:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602176</link> <description>Hi Pablo,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks very much for picking that up. I&amp;#039;m impressed with what I&amp;#039;ve read on Shinzen and plan to follow his method. Have done the background reading now need to get in sync with his teleconference program.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope you get back on the horse and we&amp;#039;ll have the opportunity to trade notes!</description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 07:07:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602176</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T07:07:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602042</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It would be awesome if some would post about their experiences following Shinzen&amp;#039;s method - maybe I should create that subject. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey, I follow Shinzen&amp;#039;s approach. I had to suspend practice for the time being due to time/family constraints. You can have a look at my practice log &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;4620018"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4620018&lt;/a&gt;, it&amp;#039;s just basic beginners stuff, around noting vanishings. Have a look at Shinzen&amp;#039;s 10 stept to enlightenment   &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5080083"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5080083&lt;/a&gt; , or better here with diagrams in pages 40-45  &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;shinzen&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Articles&amp;#x2f;WhatIsMindfulness_SY_Public&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/WhatIsMindfulness_SY_Public.pdf&lt;/a&gt;. Also, 4 ways enligtenment can arise  &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5571885"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5571885&lt;/a&gt;. </description> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2014 22:35:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602042</guid> <dc:creator>Pablo . P</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-09T22:35:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601029</link> <description>Unless I&amp;#039;m confusing him with someone else, I&amp;#039;m pretty sure Shinzen claims SE for himself and this is because when referencing the 4-path model he is referencing the traditional Sutra fetters model. But maybe I&amp;#039;m confusing him with someone else. Here&amp;#039;s some neat stuff I found googling &amp;#034;Shinzen young stream entry&amp;#034;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://shinzenyoung.blogspot.com/2012/07/meet-my-new-girlfriend-tdcs.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; this is really cool, it looks like a highly compact and clear summary of his system: &amp;#034;the system [of &amp;#039;Basic Mindfulness&amp;#039;] is explicitly designed to bring people to stream entry&amp;#034;: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;shinzen&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Articles&amp;#x2f;BMS_Summary&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.shinzen.org/Articles/BMS_Summary.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course it may be that his definition of SE, focusing as it does on the insight into a profound shift of the way identity functions, may correlate to something more like 4th path in the pragmatic dharma models.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:51:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601029</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T12:51:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600941</link> <description>I was into philosophy and science.  But I was, by nature, self-reflective since my earliest memories.  Eight years ago I had borrowed a book written by Suzuki and had my sudden awakening about three chapters into it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since that time, especially in the last three years, I have swallowed Mahayana Buddhism, Kabbalah, Sacred Geometry, Esoteric Christianity, and Patanjali Yoga and my enlightenment has been deepened by integrating my awakening with these new terms, the mysteries they reveal that are confirmed in my knowing, and living life in the moment with the wisdom gained.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I could put the answer best in a religious way.  If I used physics terms and obscure texts, I might pull off a more precise answer, but maybe religious terms can be enough?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Those who have sudden awakenings are reincarnated arahants.  It is inevitable that they will awaken, and most of them do not awaken in a sangha.  Many do not even care about Buddhism, knowing that they, themselves, are the great teacher.  They do not go through all the stages that are so radical and wondrous to those not yet enlightened.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They are Everywhere, in different stages of awakening.  Many belong to other religions.  Many do not even think of any spirituality with any significant deference.  Many are driven to the hardest retreats and the most fervent practices because they somehow remember that they know something and these people are in a hurry to know it again.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many of these special Sons of God become the most amazing teachers.  I personally think Daniel is one of these people.  If any person reads this and identifies with it, then please choose to help all of the seekers.  It is so easy to dwell in the jhanas, hanging to our temporal existences by the thinnest of threads.  But we are living in the time of The Dharma Leaving the World.  The ancient knowledge has been so twisted by misinterpretation in the last few generations that it no longer produces Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.  It may be that the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that reincarnate are with us, but the world is no longer a spiritual place.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Enlightened People will awaken.  The world will need us to awaken... People are going to need us!</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 07:51:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600941</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T07:51:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600912</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Considering that he got enlightened by doing self-inquiry practice, and the traditions involved in self-inquiry practice tend the dismiss the 4 stages of enlightenment, I see a connection there. I would like to see more exchange between the sudden and gradual camp at an intellectual level. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Well here is a thought....If self inquiry is looking for a specific result such as loss of the sense of agency (@4th path) then the other layers of selfing processes would be mostly ignored. So even though there are 3 layers of selfing processes that shut down prior they are not the &amp;#034;one&amp;#034; that is being looked for and therefore discounted. There is also the possibility that all four layers of selfing processes can shut down all at once.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 05:22:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600912</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T05:22:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600846</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is he strongly influenced by Therevada? I don&amp;#039;t know much of his work but I know he has a background in Zen. In one of his talk, he also sugested that he experienced a suddent Enlightenment himself. He was comparing gradual vs sudden and and he said that in his case, it wass sudden, but only after working for years on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sudden after working on it for years? Sounds like a standard Theravadin Path moment to me...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, it&amp;#039;s weird. The only way I could make sense of this is that he means that it all happens in one big chunk. That would mean that he didn&amp;#039;t really have any major baseline shift before it&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;final&amp;#034; Enlightenment. Here is a video where he talk of his enlightenment (I cannot find the video I have seen before). He got enlightened doing self-inquiry by the way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;youtu&amp;#x2e;be&amp;#x2f;_sCj9PDyPsg&amp;#x3f;t&amp;#x3d;6m1s"&gt;http://youtu.be/_sCj9PDyPsg?t=6m1s&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for the video and the explanation. I think the most confusing thing about the sudden awakening debate is that the Path moment is sudden. So, even if one has been meditating for a long time and moving up the nanas, it still feels like &amp;#034;sudden enlightenment.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Isn&amp;#039;t there also a saying in Theravada-- to simultaneously understand two characteristics is to understand the third, and is cause for immediate first awakening...?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I heard Young discuss of the 4 level of Enligthenment, from stream entry to Arahantship, but I am under the impression that he claim that someone can jump more or less straight to Arahantship. I don&amp;#039;t know enough about his story to be sure of that but it&amp;#039;s something that interest me. Considering that he got enlightened by doing self-inquiry practice, and the traditions involved in self-inquiry practice tend the dismiss the 4 stages of enlightenment, I see a connection there. I would like to see more exchange between the sudden and gradual camp at an intellectual level. </description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 01:50:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600846</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T01:50:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600833</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is he strongly influenced by Therevada? I don&amp;#039;t know much of his work but I know he has a background in Zen. In one of his talk, he also sugested that he experienced a suddent Enlightenment himself. He was comparing gradual vs sudden and and he said that in his case, it wass sudden, but only after working for years on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sudden after working on it for years? Sounds like a standard Theravadin Path moment to me...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, it&amp;#039;s weird. The only way I could make sense of this is that he means that it all happens in one big chunk. That would mean that he didn&amp;#039;t really have any major baseline shift before it&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;final&amp;#034; Enlightenment. Here is a video where he talk of his enlightenment (I cannot find the video I have seen before). He got enlightened doing self-inquiry by the way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;youtu&amp;#x2e;be&amp;#x2f;_sCj9PDyPsg&amp;#x3f;t&amp;#x3d;6m1s"&gt;http://youtu.be/_sCj9PDyPsg?t=6m1s&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for the video and the explanation. I think the most confusing thing about the sudden awakening debate is that the Path moment is sudden. So, even if one has been meditating for a long time and moving up the nanas, it still feels like &amp;#034;sudden enlightenment.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Isn&amp;#039;t there also a saying in Theravada-- to simultaneously understand two characteristics is to understand the third, and is cause for immediate first awakening...?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 01:23:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600833</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T01:23:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600802</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is he strongly influenced by Therevada? I don&amp;#039;t know much of his work but I know he has a background in Zen. In one of his talk, he also sugested that he experienced a suddent Enlightenment himself. He was comparing gradual vs sudden and and he said that in his case, it wass sudden, but only after working for years on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sudden after working on it for years? Sounds like a standard Theravadin Path moment to me...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, it&amp;#039;s weird. The only way I could make sense of this is that he means that it all happens in one big chunk. That would mean that he didn&amp;#039;t really have any major baseline shift before it&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;final&amp;#034; Enlightenment. Here is a video where he talk of his enlightenment (I cannot find the video I have seen before). He got enlightened doing self-inquiry by the way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;youtu&amp;#x2e;be&amp;#x2f;_sCj9PDyPsg&amp;#x3f;t&amp;#x3d;6m1s"&gt;http://youtu.be/_sCj9PDyPsg?t=6m1s&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 23:11:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600802</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T23:11:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600729</link> <description>He teaches noting mostly in his retreats, often cross referencing Mahasi instructions for clarity.  He also presents other techniques including &amp;#034;do nothing&amp;#034; (taking as broad a focus as possible while dropping any intentions or &amp;#034;doing&amp;#034; that&amp;#039;s possible) and noting &amp;#034;gone&amp;#034; or vanishings.  He brings a lot of perspective and good stories from his Rinzai and Shingon training and shares about them, but as far as I can tell he does not teach practices based in those schools as part of his basic instruction.  He works a lot with people one on one so not sure what everyone gets in that case.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 20:25:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600729</guid> <dc:creator>: ladyfrog :</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T20:25:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600657</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Simon T.:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is he strongly influenced by Therevada? I don&amp;#039;t know much of his work but I know he has a background in Zen. In one of his talk, he also sugested that he experienced a suddent Enlightenment himself. He was comparing gradual vs sudden and and he said that in his case, it wass sudden, but only after working for years on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sudden after working on it for years? Sounds like a standard Theravadin Path moment to me...</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:22:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600657</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T18:22:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600610</link> <description>His training background is Shingon, Theravada and Zen.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 16:55:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600610</guid> <dc:creator>Kim Katami</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T16:55:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600603</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is he strongly influenced by Therevada? I don&amp;#039;t know much of his work but I know he has a background in Zen. In one of his talk, he also sugested that he experienced a suddent Enlightenment himself. He was comparing gradual vs sudden and and he said that in his case, it wass sudden, but only after working for years on it.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 16:41:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600603</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T16:41:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600557</link> <description>yeah, it&amp;#039;s not clear from that short quote whether he meant the one or the other. As far as I know, Shinzen Young&amp;#039;s meditation teaching is strongly Theravada inspired, so a more developmental approach is not unlikely.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interesting anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:45:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600557</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T15:45:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600538</link> <description>That is an extremely good point Florian. I never thought of that because he has a strong Rinzai Zen/kensho-history.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Baba</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:08:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600538</guid> <dc:creator>Kim Katami</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T14:08:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600484</link> <description>Hi Baba&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;hm, if that teacher specializes on guiding his students along a developmental, &amp;#034;gradual&amp;#034; path, why do you measure him by the number of &amp;#034;sudden&amp;#034; awakenings that he presumably considers spurious to his way of teaching?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:10:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600484</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T12:10:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Sudden awakenings</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600474</link> <description>Here is Shinzen&amp;#039;s interview at Buddhist Geeks: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A quote:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;HPK:&lt;/strong&gt; During the last retreat here you mentioned that&lt;br /&gt; many of your students are more enlightened than they think they are. &lt;br /&gt;After 30 years of working in the field, what have you observed that’s &lt;br /&gt;common, and what’s different about your student’s experiences of &lt;br /&gt;enlightenment? How do their experiences compare to, for instance, those &lt;br /&gt;found in Kapleau’s “Three Pillars of Zen”, or Buddhagosa’s &lt;br /&gt;“Vissuddhimagga”? How common is that dramatic, sudden experience of &lt;br /&gt;enlightenment as compared to the more gradual and even integration.&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;SZY:&lt;/strong&gt; The sudden epiphany that’s described in many &lt;br /&gt;books about enlightenment, that has definitely happened to some of my &lt;br /&gt;students. And when it happens, it’s similar to what is described in &lt;br /&gt;those books. How frequently does it happen? I don’t know. I don’t keep &lt;br /&gt;statistics, but maybe a couple times a year.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was surprised to see that this number is quite small, &amp;#034;a couple of times a year&amp;#034;. Perhaps it actually is slightly larger if he doesn&amp;#039;t keep a record. I haven&amp;#039;t seen numbers of how various teachers teaching various paths do in this regard but I would expect the number to be quite higher than a couple. I don&amp;#039;t mean to critisize anyone here but to bring up the question of how do teachings actually perform in this sense (awakenings/stream-entries). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any idea of numbers from other teachers/guides?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Baba</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 11:58:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600474</guid> <dc:creator>Kim Katami</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T11:58:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>SF Bay Area Shinzen Fans</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5586050</link> <description>I am convening San Francisco Bay Area Shin-heads to get together and talk about Shinzen&amp;#039;s system, our work as teachers, students, and seekers, our practice, and anything else that emerges.  Hopefully it will be a night of much pleasant &amp;#034;feel in&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It will probably in the North East bay (El Cerrito/Albany), date to be determined.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please contact me at &lt;a href="mailto&amp;#x3a;acoutts&amp;#x40;intromeditation&amp;#x2e;com"&gt;adam * at * intromeditation * dot * com&lt;/a&gt; to be involved.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2014 10:53:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5586050</guid> <dc:creator>Adam Ian Coutts</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-18T10:53:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574535</link> <description>Would be awesome if you get to attend one one of his sessions - I think he has trained people who help so you might want to time the session.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Interesting perspective on the teacher relationship, so what we want is someone who revers their teacher who is not dogmatic! </description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 20:08:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574535</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T20:08:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574486</link> <description>Hi DW,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not near teachers either but Shinzen offers a sort of home based retreat and seems technology friendly. One concern is his focus in the US, I&amp;#039;m in Europe.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like your analogy with a deletion process! Buddhism does seem to focus on getting rid of aversion/greed/ignorance so that sort of fits too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah the buddha does have a way with words &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your efforts!</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 18:38:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574486</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T18:38:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574457</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be awesome if some would post about their experiences following Shinzen&amp;#039;s method - maybe I should create that subject. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s a great idea. i think there are a couple folks around here who have experience with his teachings. I think he lives around me actually; I&amp;#039;ve been meaning to attend some of his stuff. If I get around to it I&amp;#039;ll let you know. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;R.E. surrendering to a teacher: well that is a pretty big thing in some traditions, but not so much in a lot of Buddhism (though of course, in some forms of Buddhism it is deemed essential!). Also, I have noticed that many of the Buddhist teachers who most revere their teachers are actually the most dogmatic about their &amp;#039;way&amp;#039;. This isn&amp;#039;t necessarily a problem as there is a whole checks and balances thing that is to be said for that, but just to say, if one is more eclectic, one may have to be kind of under the radar about this.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:21:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574457</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T17:21:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574438</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Shinzen seems to be humble, open minded, humorous, results orientated, the list could go on... He does seem to have introduced his own vocabulary and I&amp;#039;d like to understand the lineage of the methods he uses. Would also be good to know of students that have pursued his techniques to enlightenment. I guess it will take some digging to find that type of info.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be awesome if some would post about their experiences following Shinzen&amp;#039;s method - maybe I should create that subject. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think Shinzen is pretty awesome....If I was near where he is at I&amp;#039;d totally follow his teachings. As it is I have really only got where I got following MCTB mostly.  &lt;br /&gt;Here is a thought that was a game changer for me...There is nothing you &amp;#034;get&amp;#034; from awakening. Awakening is a deletion process that is very specific. See if that helps in your understanding of people&amp;#039;s different definitions. As much as we wish that we could pick and choose to gain certain perfections it doesn&amp;#039;t nessisarily end up that way. If I have a personality of a total asshole and I make it to awakening somehow...I might still be mostly a non-dual asshole as perceived by my surounding peers. I can choose to work on personality/morality at any time I see a need. The problem is in seeing a need. Where the danger is with awakening is that with much less stress the need &lt;em&gt;might &lt;/em&gt;not be as apparent. Thus you get awakened people doing stuff just like non awakened people. Thank goodness I have a wife that is more than happy to point out my faults and keeps me in check...Teachers can do the same thing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;I have taught one thing and one thing only, &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt; and the cessation of &lt;em&gt;dukkha&lt;/em&gt;.&amp;#034; ~Buddha&lt;br /&gt;Sounds pretty easy put that way?&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;br /&gt; (edit - fixed quote and stuff)&lt;br /&gt;(edit 2 - Me: Wife dear, can you come look at this post and see if I&amp;#039;m coming across as an asshole? Wife: If you have to ask me you probably already know the answer, but I would be happy to read it. Me: nevermind....I&amp;#039;ll rewrite it. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/dry.gif" &gt; )</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:09:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574438</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T16:09:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574431</link> <description>Hi DW,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The thread is a little out of order but I hope my reply covered what you raised. I wasn&amp;#039;t sure if it had been deleted so I didn&amp;#039;t include what you wrote. I&amp;#039;ve seen a few glitches with the forum software too. Thanks for sorting that out.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:58:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574431</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T15:58:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574427</link> <description>Sometimes the server gets locked up and the post gets screwed up on posting....sorry bout that. This was somehow saved as a draft that I could see but not public.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:49:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574427</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T15:49:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574423</link> <description>Hi Jake,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Largely agree with what you wrote. I remember a podcast on Buddhist Geeks that touched on this 9:28 on http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/07/bg-029-mass-producing-meditators/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Complimenting our point of view at 2:40 there is a discusison about traits produced in Goenka http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/07/bg-029-mass-producing-meditators/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure if it is that podcast but I&amp;#039;ve also heard convincing arguments that the teacher relationship is critcal. I&amp;#039;ve not watched many videos on Batgap (they are long!) maybe 4. Multiple times the importance of a surrendering to a teacher was pointed out as part of a critical &amp;#034;break through&amp;#034;. Not a big issue early on but could be challenging for a system like Goenka later on. It is perhaps also helps with the humility to have a teacher who is revered as being far more enlightened - it seems people who have &amp;#034;the&amp;#034; answer also don&amp;#039;t have teachers.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen seems to be humble, open minded, humorous, results orientated, the list could go on... He does seem to have introduced his own vocabulary and I&amp;#039;d like to understand the lineage of the methods he uses. Would also be good to know of students that have pursued his techniques to enlightenment. I guess it will take some digging to find that type of info.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be awesome if some would post about their experiences following Shinzen&amp;#039;s method - maybe I should create that subject. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; </description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:42:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574423</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T15:42:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574416</link> <description>Hey Mark, those are some insightful reflections. I like how you are going about this. Personally i really agree that different views and methods will condition a different style of outcome based on what we know about neuroplasticity. Personally, I have found it useful to practice with multiple different views and methods in order to kind of cross-reference and see what holds up across multiple approaches, with the sense that there seem to be deep structures to the path that are similar across traditions. So I guess I am kind of a both/and when it comes to perrenialism vs. a more post-modern, neuroplastic take on these things. I think these issues probably become more significant at higher levels of practice when, as you allude, the choices in cultivation we make start to restrict possible future outcomes (potentially) as different high-level outcomes may be mutually exclusive. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You wrote: &amp;#034;There seem to be a bunch of different litmus tests but a permanent shift in experience to the non-dual seems a good one. This is different from being absolutely convinced the self is an illusion.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I totally agree. &amp;#039;Convinced&amp;#039; has an intellectual connotation; that&amp;#039;s why I wrote &amp;#034;seeing that [solid seperate] self is an illusion&amp;#034; rather than &amp;#039;believing&amp;#039; or being &amp;#039;convinced&amp;#039;. In actually phenomenologically seeing that this illusion is an illusion there is vivid nonduality, in my experience, as duality is synonymous with solid seperate self. That &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; could be a personal level identity- our ordinary sense of being &amp;#039;Mark&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;Jake&amp;#039;, a pre-personal instinctual identity (being anger, jealousy, etc on a pre-verbal level), or a transpersonal, spiritual &amp;#039;Self&amp;#039; identity, but what they all have in common is seperating one side of the experiential continuum off and calling it &amp;#039;me&amp;#039; and calling the rest &amp;#039;it&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;you&amp;#039;. Seeing that these constructs are just that and that the experiential continuum is undivided is to see nonduality (of one kind anyway). Seeing this again and again shifts the baseline until it becomes the new norm to see these identities (personal, pre-personal, transpersonal) as mere constructs which arise and pass without substance-- to see that &amp;#039;identity&amp;#039; is a fiction abstracted from an always shifting process of identification which has no solidity or permanence. Practicing this way also results, in my experience, in glimpsing modes of experiencing in which identification doesn&amp;#039;t arise at all. So when I talk about &amp;#039;practice&amp;#039;, based on my experience of implementing multiple different methods, I would say one thing they have in common is this seeing through the illusory solidity and permanence of identification (which implies, at least glimpsing moments free of identification altogether). My sense is that practicing as Shinzen describes would be a great way to experience both these kinds of insights as would practicing according to MCTB or Mahamudra or Zen or whatever.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;ETA: IMO the best practice to choose at the beginning is the one you will actually do &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; Later I personally think it is good to try out various different systems so you can start to see what &amp;#039;results&amp;#039; of practice are artifacts of certain methods and views, and what results are deeper and more lasting or more universal. This helps in preventing a &amp;#039;my Path is the best&amp;#039; dogmatism.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:59:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574416</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T14:59:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574359</link> <description>Hi DW,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I received a reply from you to this thread by email but I can&amp;#039;t see it in the thread. You might have deleted it or maybe a quirk with the forum.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen has a model of Appreciate Transcend Improve. My concern is that different meothds for transcending have different consequences for improving. Some experiences in the transcending might limit people in the improving. My asssumption is partly based on strange attitudes of some enlightened people - sex scandals, grandiosity, close mindedness, poor communication skills etc&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That particular example I gave in regard to concentration was about concentration on sensations e.g. focus on the tomato while cutting it. Not the meditative concentration. I can see that was misleading, sorry.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen speaks about using concentration to appreciate everyday activities more, this sounds like flow but I&amp;#039;m not sure.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is understandable I could seem focused on the negative. But it is with a positive intention &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The little bit of reading/listening I&amp;#039;ve done indicates Shinzen&amp;#039;s experience of awakening addreses many of my concerns. I was trying to sound out if some of those aspects are unique to Shinzen or not. If they are common interpretations then it is reassuring, if on a tangent then it probably deserves more investigating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The idea of the no-self helping &amp;#034;clean up&amp;#034; the self allowing a &amp;#034;full-on self&amp;#034; is appealing. That is my current understanding of what Shinzen means. It reminds me a bit of a confucian saying something along the lines of: At 70 I followed my heart’s desire&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m sure there are a huge amount of positive things to say about Shinzen. I don&amp;#039;t want a thread discrediting him but in the spirirt of DhO I was thinking it would be good to understand where Shinzen adds his own unique sauce (if he does). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is very little support for how to choose a teacher/method. There is just way too much information to wade through. I suspect that means a lot of people end up choosing the wrong teacher/method but that is probably still better than no teacher/method.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe at the early stage it is not so important but I imagine once we are invested in a method it may take a vey long time before we prove it is not effective - even the buddha took 6 years!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It would be great to see a sort of meta-guide to the various teachers/practices. But probably unrealstic given the human condition! </description> <pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 10:29:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574359</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-27T10:29:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574158</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;HMmm...awakening is a complecated concept. When you watch BATGAP and get a wide exposure to many many very different types of awakening experiences and different vocabulary and different practices and different cultural backgrounds with an interviewer who consistently doesn&amp;#039;t dig into the deep end of this very deep pool you are going to have some problems. Picking a few comments out of context and then feeding your ego fear of becoming your limited understanding of what is going on, does you no favors. Perhaps you might consider finding a teacher who expresses an awakening that you do wish to experience and stick to those practices and ignore the rest of the so called &amp;#034;dangers&amp;#034; that you do not wish to experience.&lt;br /&gt;Just a thought,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sorry I was not being very clear. I was refering to this -&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve heard (mainly a few BATGAP interviews) a notion of living purely in the present. I assume that means being unable to imagine consequences of potential actions. It seems the creative process is often not about running with the first idea but playing out the ideas and throwing most of them away. Not being able to perform that type of activity seems more handicap than advantage.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your assumption of a handicap based off of what?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I&amp;#039;ve also heard reports of sensations getting the same priority, so for example loosing the ability to concentrate (obviously not everyone on BATGAP reports that). Again it is hard to see the advantage of that - I mean sensations are not equivalent in the real world - admire the big wall painting or notice the small flicker which is the shadow of a saber tooth tiger emoticon Another example, I like being able to reach a state of flow in an activity to the point of not hearing/seeing things around me, I suspect it is more effective for the particular activity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; A negative report about concentration followed by sensations are not equivalent (is this positive or negitive?) and something about flow state (is this positive or negitive?)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;You seem to be suggesting to not try understanding awakening but to choose a teacher based on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nope...I say go ahead and figure out awakening but you seemed to be focusing on the negative. I&amp;#039;m saying focus on the positive and go get some.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 23:34:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574158</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T23:34:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574051</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;. Jake .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I agree that the Batgap interviewer really seems to reduce what every guest is saying back to his own paradigm of &amp;#039;what awakening is&amp;#039;. And DW may be on to something in suggesting you pick a teacher who exhibits the qualities you aspire to embodying and then just dig into the practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Gary Weber when pressed (if I remember correctly) seems to clarify that the lack of thoughts he reports/espouses is actually a lack of a very specific category of thoughts (self-referencing narrative thoughts). So that is an important distinction. But even taking that into account, my response to him and those who like him talk about basic features of experiencing and functioning dropping out as a requirement or natural consequence of awakening, is that they may be misinterpreting what they have accomplished (if they aren&amp;#039;t merely misreporting it). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But let&amp;#039;s say what they are reporting in their own case is true. What of it? Yes, if you keep getting flat tires, you can take all the wheels off your car. Then you will have no more flat tires. That doesn&amp;#039;t mean that the best way to avoid flat tires is to take the wheels off your car. If there are inner functions like thinking and feeling, the combining of which &lt;strong&gt;in specific ways&lt;/strong&gt; seems to contribute to the arising of suffering and delusion-- and this certainly seems to be the case-- then it doesn&amp;#039;t follow that removing thinking and/or feeling is &lt;strong&gt;the (one and only, best, etc....)&lt;/strong&gt; way to end suffering. Just see how they combine skillfully and unskillfully and cultivate the former and let go of the latter. no need to eliminate a basic function. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So with the &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; issue, you can eliminate the basic building blocks that add up to the illusion of a solid seperate self-- or you can just &lt;strong&gt;see, thoroughly enough, enough times over, that those building blocks don&amp;#039;t add up to anything but an illusion&lt;/strong&gt;!!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Batgap with Daniel was quite interesting  - they really seem to be talking past each other for most of the interview. The interviews do seem to highlight the variety of individual experiences (ignoring the interviewers reinterpretations).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I suspect most people have spent some time &amp;#034;shopping&amp;#034; before making a serious committment to a teacher/practise. Getting some understanding of what the teacher proposes (in this case Shinzen) seems reasonable to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As I recall the thing that motivated Gary Weber to get on the path was a full-on chattering mind that was disturbing to him. So I think it might make sense that this became a major focus in his practise. The practices are basically rewiring the brain and it would make a huge difference which techniques/intentions were used over a period of decades.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There seem to be a bunch of different litmus tests but a permanent shift in experience to the non-dual seems a good one. This is different from being absolutely convinced the self is an illusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To bring this full circle, you are proposing a certain type of practise is that based on Shinzen Young or someone else ?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:58:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574051</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T16:58:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574017</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;HMmm...awakening is a complecated concept. When you watch BATGAP and get a wide exposure to many many very different types of awakening experiences and different vocabulary and different practices and different cultural backgrounds with an interviewer who consistently doesn&amp;#039;t dig into the deep end of this very deep pool you are going to have some problems. Picking a few comments out of context and then feeding your ego fear of becoming your limited understanding of what is going on, does you no favors. Perhaps you might consider finding a teacher who expresses an awakening that you do wish to experience and stick to those practices and ignore the rest of the so called &amp;#034;dangers&amp;#034; that you do not wish to experience.&lt;br /&gt;Just a thought,&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hi DW,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think you might be auto-biographing a bit there. I referenced three interviews on BATGAP - all used buddhist practices.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You seem to be suggesting to not try understanding awakening but to choose a teacher based on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m trying to get some clarity on what Shinzen has said regarding awakening. If he was sitting next to me I&amp;#039;d ask him &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;  I don&amp;#039;t think I&amp;#039;ve implied a judgement on Shinzen but I get a feeling you&amp;#039;ve read one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen mentions awakening as something that can lead to more effective impact in the relative world and implies some sense of &amp;#034;full-on&amp;#034; self. That is inspiring and seems a different take on the topic. Maybe it is impossible to get a handle on this...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is it a vocabulary issue or is Shinzen describing something different compared, for example, to what Daniel means by stream-entry and any remarks on the experience of an oscillating no-self/full-on self ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:33:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574017</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T16:33:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574005</link> <description>I agree that the Batgap interviewer really seems to reduce what every guest is saying back to his own paradigm of &amp;#039;what awakening is&amp;#039;. And DW may be on to something in suggesting you pick a teacher who exhibits the qualities you aspire to embodying and then just dig into the practice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Gary Weber when pressed (if I remember correctly) seems to clarify that the lack of thoughts he reports/espouses is actually a lack of a very specific category of thoughts (self-referencing narrative thoughts). So that is an important distinction. But even taking that into account, my response to him and those who like him talk about basic features of experiencing and functioning dropping out as a requirement or natural consequence of awakening, is that they may be misinterpreting what they have accomplished (if they aren&amp;#039;t merely misreporting it). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But let&amp;#039;s say what they are reporting in their own case is true. What of it? Yes, if you keep getting flat tires, you can take all the wheels off your car. Then you will have no more flat tires. That doesn&amp;#039;t mean that the best way to avoid flat tires is to take the wheels off your car. If there are inner functions like thinking and feeling, the combining of which &lt;strong&gt;in specific ways&lt;/strong&gt; seems to contribute to the arising of suffering and delusion-- and this certainly seems to be the case-- then it doesn&amp;#039;t follow that removing thinking and/or feeling is &lt;strong&gt;the (one and only, best, etc....)&lt;/strong&gt; way to end suffering. Just see how they combine skillfully and unskillfully and cultivate the former and let go of the latter. no need to eliminate a basic function. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So with the &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; issue, you can eliminate the basic building blocks that add up to the illusion of a solid seperate self-- or you can just &lt;strong&gt;see, thoroughly enough, enough times over, that those building blocks don&amp;#039;t add up to anything but an illusion&lt;/strong&gt;!!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:26:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5574005</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T16:26:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573955</link> <description>HMmm...awakening is a complecated concept. When you watch BATGAP and get a wide exposure to many many very different types of awakening experiences and different vocabulary and different practices and different cultural backgrounds with an interviewer who consistently doesn&amp;#039;t dig into the deep end of this very deep pool you are going to have some problems. Picking a few comments out of context and then feeding your ego fear of becoming your limited understanding of what is going on, does you no favors. Perhaps you might consider finding a teacher who expresses an awakening that you do wish to experience and stick to those practices and ignore the rest of the so called &amp;#034;dangers&amp;#034; that you do not wish to experience.&lt;br /&gt;Just a thought,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 15:48:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573955</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T15:48:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573926</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;. Jake .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi! &lt;br /&gt;I think Shinzen&amp;#039;s definiteion of Stream Entry includes more advanced realizations per this community&amp;#039;s standards. his descriptions sound similar to descriptions of 4th path. He appears to be using the 10-fetters model in which 2nd and 3rd path are marked by emotional transformation culminating in the dissapearence of attachment and aversion and 4th path is marked by the dissapearence of the last subtle illusions. So totally different standards. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, in regards to living in the present vs. being able to think about the future, my sense from personal experience and conversations with people is that the only people who think there is a dichotomy there at all are not very awakened, if at all. It is self evident from the point of view of equalizing sensations that sensations that make up thoughts of the past and future are happening spontaneously right now. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;**People who are trying to imagine what awakening looks like might imagine it involves no thoughts of future or past, no ability to plan, etc. but I don&amp;#039;t know of anyone who claims to be awakened and also claims to be incapable of those things &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;**&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Jake,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It can seem a bit surprising, one person who stands out in that regard (claiming practically no thoughts at all) is Gary Weber https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvQ-QvWsu_o  If you watch some of the BATGAP interviews you&amp;#039;ll see a wide range of views. http://batgap.com/linda-clair/ was another one that is surprising regarding ability to concentrate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Strangely it does not mean &amp;#034;no ability to plan&amp;#034; more an inability to think about it. So it is a different type of planning than what I experience! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In regards to stream-entry what is different between Shinzen&amp;#039;s model and whta peolpe refer to here ? I think Daniel alse refers to the 10 fetters model.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 14:38:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573926</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T14:38:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573919</link> <description>Hi! &lt;br /&gt;I think Shinzen&amp;#039;s definiteion of Stream Entry includes more advanced realizations per this community&amp;#039;s standards. his descriptions sound similar to descriptions of 4th path. He appears to be using the 10-fetters model in which 2nd and 3rd path are marked by emotional transformation culminating in the dissapearence of attachment and aversion and 4th path is marked by the dissapearence of the last subtle illusions. So totally different standards. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, in regards to living in the present vs. being able to think about the future, my sense from personal experience and conversations with people is that the only people who think there is a dichotomy there at all are not very awakened, if at all. It is self evident from the point of view of equalizing sensations that sensations that make up thoughts of the past and future are happening spontaneously right now. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;**People who are trying to imagine what awakening looks like might imagine it involves no thoughts of future or past, no ability to plan, etc. but I don&amp;#039;t know of anyone who claims to be awakened and also claims to be incapable of those things &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;**</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 14:09:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573919</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T14:09:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573650</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi D,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then &amp;#034;did I watch the video?&amp;#034; answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I&amp;#039;ll try to rephrase:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think Shinzen is meaning by &lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&amp;#034;sane grandiosity&amp;#034; in regards to ego ?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Link/time? I just watched it again and couldn&amp;#039;t find the reference..&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oops, sorry I got confused. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;amp;v=CdP1gQBlvAE 5:28 is the cycling of self &amp;amp; no self&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbznm2NLais 2:14:30 is the sane grandiosity&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He mentions the &amp;#034;sane grandiosity&amp;#034; is not to be taken too seriously (I am probably doing that). But the lead up to that remark seems to imply enlightened people using insights to bring about more effective change in the relative world (e.g. new medative technologies). That level of planning and projection seems to be different from the &amp;#034;in the now&amp;#034; attitude of some other interviews on BATGAP.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve since learned that Shinzen considers stream entry to be enlightenment (he seems to have a gradual scale) so maybe the cycling of self is related to experience prior to 4th path ?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:04:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573650</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T08:04:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573508</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi D,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then &amp;#034;did I watch the video?&amp;#034; answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I&amp;#039;ll try to rephrase:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think Shinzen is meaning by &lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&amp;#034;sane grandiosity&amp;#034; in regards to ego ?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Link/time? I just watched it again and couldn&amp;#039;t find the reference..</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:40:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573508</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T21:40:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573502</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi D,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then &amp;#034;did I watch the video?&amp;#034; answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I&amp;#039;ll try to rephrase:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think Shinzen is meaning by &lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&amp;#034;sane grandiosity&amp;#034; in regards to ego ?&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:18:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573502</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T21:18:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573499</link> <description>Nice, thanks Richard!</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:15:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573499</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T21:15:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573489</link> <description>I would look at these interviews if you haven&amp;#039;t already:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;qoAbCgmhqdM"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoAbCgmhqdM&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Enlightenment &amp;#034;Downsides&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;_N7A5kAESTQ"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N7A5kAESTQ&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #222222"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;How Shinzen Broke Through an Addiction&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;1:45 &amp;#034;You spend the rest of your life refining yourself&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:43:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573489</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T20:43:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573485</link> <description>Thanks Richard. You are right that these are not big issues for my own practise at this stage. I was wondering about exploring Shinzen&amp;#039;s instruction more and I think there is some truth to - the expectations and methods influencing the results. So I wanted to get a better understanding of the results Shinzen believes he has achieved and what he thinks of them. So far I&amp;#039;ve found his attitude reassuring for exampel absolutes don&amp;#039;t seem to play a big part in his communication. </description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:21:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573485</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T20:21:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573478</link> <description>Not really an answer but this helped explain more about what Shinzen thinks of enlightenment. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One difference it seems is on DhO enlightenment seems reserved for 4th path whereas Shinzen considers Stream-Entry as enlightenment (only to a much lesser extent).</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:16:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573478</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T20:16:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573473</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then &amp;#034;thing-ness&amp;#034; including &amp;#034;self-ness&amp;#034; becomes something that isn&amp;#039;t actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I&amp;#039;m sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I imagine so. But you could imagine seeing those behaviours as arising without owning them. Things &amp;#034;unfolding&amp;#034; in the only way they can etc... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The character and behaviours could be perceived as conditioned arisings - nothing to own, nobody to own them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I get the impression some people experience that extreme and Shinzen is talking about a very different experience. Where the self is &amp;#034;oscillating&amp;#034; between being fully present and not present. Have you watched that video ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It&amp;#039;s the clinging that&amp;#039;s the problem.  Have preferences but don&amp;#039;t HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;People seem to report many other things going - like thoughts for example (and not just self referential thoughts).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it&amp;#039;s not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don&amp;#039;t want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It&amp;#039;s kind of asking &amp;#034;what next, what next, what next?&amp;#034;  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These talks might help you:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;10028&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Especially 35:25&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That was very interesting thanks. And thanks so much for pointing out the time! Do you think that the cycling of self that Shizen talks about equates with the cycling in that talk i.e. Shinzen had not progressed beyond that point ? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;9553&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/9553.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I do imagine people get this.  When I stay present I could think lust for something or someone and the dependent arising consequences of that happens.  Due to being present and welcoming the sensations (to avoid repression), I can let it drop and then get rewarded with a relief.  I could then wonder how it got started and realize that the conditioned thought came out of nowhere and is not located anywhere now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s debatable if these cycles really die down for good.  Ron Crouch said to me that he doesn&amp;#039;t meditate much anymore and rarely out of the blue he might get angry in traffic and feel &amp;#034;wow I haven&amp;#039;t seen that for a long time?&amp;#034;  Desire and Ill Will are weakened but not completely eradicated. All the awakened instructors are cagey in saying they are fully enlightened because nobody is.  Maybe a person is fully enlightened if they are secluded from temptations and not given the chance to fail.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The best prescription is to keep relaxing the push and pull of likes and dislikes and be ready for them no matter how many years you&amp;#039;ve meditated.  Having no illusions that they may come back is the right attitude.  Look at Philip Seymour Hoffmann.  He stopped drugs for decades and fell back into them from a weak impulse.  I don&amp;#039;t think anyone should feel safe.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:44:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573473</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T19:44:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573447</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi D,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I see comments and two question marks one of which is a comment and then &amp;#034;did I watch the video?&amp;#034; answer - Yes, been a while but yes, I went thru a Shinzen video phase where I watched most of them.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:41:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573447</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T18:41:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573439</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then &amp;#034;thing-ness&amp;#034; including &amp;#034;self-ness&amp;#034; becomes something that isn&amp;#039;t actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I&amp;#039;m sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I imagine so. But you could imagine seeing those behaviours as arising without owning them. Things &amp;#034;unfolding&amp;#034; in the only way they can etc... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The character and behaviours could be perceived as conditioned arisings - nothing to own, nobody to own them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I get the impression some people experience that extreme and Shinzen is talking about a very different experience. Where the self is &amp;#034;oscillating&amp;#034; between being fully present and not present. Have you watched that video ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It&amp;#039;s the clinging that&amp;#039;s the problem.  Have preferences but don&amp;#039;t HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;People seem to report many other things going - like thoughts for example (and not just self referential thoughts).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it&amp;#039;s not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don&amp;#039;t want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It&amp;#039;s kind of asking &amp;#034;what next, what next, what next?&amp;#034;  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These talks might help you:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;10028&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Especially 35:25&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That was very interesting thanks. And thanks so much for pointing out the time! Do you think that the cycling of self that Shizen talks about equates with the cycling in that talk i.e. Shinzen had not progressed beyond that point ? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;9553&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/9553.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:37:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573439</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T18:37:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573435</link> <description>Hi D,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is new territory to me so please excuse the questions if they are not very clear.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve heard (mainly a few BATGAP interviews) a notion of living purely in the present. I assume that means being unable to imagine consequences of potential actions. It seems the creative process is often not about running with the first idea but playing out the ideas and throwing most of them away. Not being able to perform that type of activity seems more handicap than advantage.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve also heard reports of sensations getting the same priority, so for example loosing the ability to concentrate (obviously not everyone on BATGAP reports that). Again it is hard to see the advantage of that - I mean sensations are not equivalent in the real world - admire the big wall painting or notice the small flicker which is the shadow of a saber tooth tiger &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; Another example, I like being able to reach a state of flow in an activity to the point of not hearing/seeing things around me, I suspect it is more effective for the particular activity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When Shinzen states &amp;#034;sane grandiosity&amp;#034; that seems to suggest a real ego at work - but maybe not an ego functioning on fear ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I should have framed the subject better. I don&amp;#039;t think suppressing the sense of self is a good thing. The way Shinzen explains how the self is experienced is like a wave function. This seems very different from the way it is typically described on this forum (your description aligns with what I woulds have expected). Have you watched the video?&lt;br /&gt; </description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:12:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573435</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T18:12:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573374</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I assume this is part of what he teaches too. It seems a little different from hte explanations I&amp;#039;ve heard of a non-dual &amp;#034;enlightened&amp;#034; for example as described by Daniel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would be great to hear more about Shinzen&amp;#039;s take on this. Thanks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is my take on it -&lt;br /&gt;Duality means there are sensations perceived wherein some of them are a much higher priority than others as well as some implying that there is a permanent &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; as a thing/object/doer.&lt;br /&gt;In non-duality sensations get the same priority and there is no longer the possessive difference between certain internal vs external sensations(as well as the elimination of stress that is associated with this). The particular identification of some sensations that imply a &amp;#034;self-object&amp;#034; are gone but sensations that imply a self as &amp;#034;process&amp;#034; continue. (there is no thing/object/doer that is &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; but the process of existence continues) Choosing to suppress certain sensations are then forcing an artificial low priority to achieve an egoistic goal of supposed awakening to &amp;#034;no self never in anyway&amp;#034; (no pain or emotions etc.) &lt;br /&gt;Good luck&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:05:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573374</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T16:05:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573367</link> <description>This is Buddhism.  What people call a self is a thinking-self-referencing habit related to likes and dislikes.  When you deconstruct objects and see that things are more interdependent and seamless then &amp;#034;thing-ness&amp;#034; including &amp;#034;self-ness&amp;#034; becomes something that isn&amp;#039;t actually true.  This can teach the brain to self-reference less but I&amp;#039;m sure Shinzen has favourite meals and preferences like anyone else.  Self becomes a seamless dependent arising.  It&amp;#039;s the clinging that&amp;#039;s the problem.  Have preferences but don&amp;#039;t HOLD them tightly.  The batgap interview with Joseph Goldstein points out that greed, hate and delusion needs to go, not anything else. Having a stream entry or kensho experience is just a taste.  One needs to keep weaning (probably for the rest of your life).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be scientific, the amygdala shrinks but it&amp;#039;s not completely removed.  I think there will always be something residual.  Secondly the amygdala has other uses which involve compassion so we don&amp;#039;t want it to shrink to zero.  There are also other practices that mirror cognitive therapy which is to use your imagination and to act out in your mind realistically getting your desire satisfied but not permanently satisified.  It&amp;#039;s kind of asking &amp;#034;what next, what next, what next?&amp;#034;  As you renounce you get a sense of relief that is enjoyable and more disenchantment.  This is a part of the practice and can be included in mindfulness.  In fact if you renounced and liked to live more simply, despite a sense of self, that could be enough.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These talks might help you:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;10028&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/10028.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Especially 35:25&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;audio_player&amp;#x2f;210&amp;#x2f;9553&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/210/9553.html&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:01:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573367</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T16:01:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573334</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Richard Zen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;There are debates in Buddhism but suppressing a sense of self is aversion which should also feel like a self.  You need a sense of likes and dislikes but to cling to them less.  It&amp;#039;s hard to say that Daniel is against a sense of self when his book talks about how emotions are still apart of you even if you&amp;#039;re an arhat.  He also posted that all the meditation masters he&amp;#039;s met have signs of emotions on their faces.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The main goal that teachers look at is whether greed, hate and delusion are greatly attenuated.  Shinzen&amp;#039;s interview in batgap talks about preparation for extreme things like Syrian torture.  This shows there&amp;#039;s a gradation and most people (including masters) aren&amp;#039;t anywhere near a Syrian jail and if they were suprised without prepration they would fail.  I think desire and ill will continue on in all people but it&amp;#039;s reduced enough so that they can pursue higher values and in some people it&amp;#039;s not gone far enough and they are living hypocritically.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This makes sense in myself in that I have gradually more disenchantment but it&amp;#039;s nowhere near 100% and I don&amp;#039;t believe I&amp;#039;ll achieve that or even want that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the same interview Shinzen talks about how despite the blissfulness of awakening, people still have sexual relations.  These are big flags to show people what awakening is and what it is not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I personally like the idea of monks who have strong sexual desires to disrobe and live a layman&amp;#039;s life.  They should shack up with someone like Stephen and Martine Batchelor did.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi Richard,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It makes sense to me that suppressing the self is not a good thing. But I seem to have heard the idea of the self &amp;#034;dissolving&amp;#034; many times. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe I&amp;#039;m reading into it too much. I guess a &amp;#034;sense of self&amp;#034; does not require a dual perspective. Someone with a dual perspective can appreciate the self is an illusion and I guess someone with a non-dual perspective could appreciate the notion of their self.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was surprised by Shinzen&amp;#039;s explanation in that interview as it seemed more than a &amp;#034;sense of self&amp;#034;. He spoke of an oscillation between absolutely no self and full on self. It is the first time I&amp;#039;ve heard that type of description.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I suspect that the experience of awakening is largely influenced by the goals and techniques used. So if suppression of self (e.g. Gary Weber) is the goal then that might be quite radical. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In BATGAP Shinzen talks about his &amp;#034;sain grandiosity&amp;#034; and I guess this makes a lot of sense if the self is still there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like the idea of stopping the second dart. Which seems to be a driver for my initial interest in meditation. Is Shinzen proposing a sort of reformatting of the ego as opposed to getting &amp;#034;rid&amp;#034; of it ?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:05:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573334</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T15:05:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573328</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mark:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;sawfoot _:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn&amp;#039;t suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.sasakiarchive.com/&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Sawfoot can we please have this thread focus on the question in regards to Shinzen. This was posted in the sub-forum for Shinzen not Sasaki. Have you worked with Shinzen&amp;#039;s methods ?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Not in any substantive way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems relevant to me - Shinzen &lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;says he learned n&lt;span style="font-family: Museo&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;ot to suppress his sense of self from the teachings of &lt;/span&gt;Joshu Sasaki Roshi. So if he teaches it, it is a teaching of this teacher. Though from what I know it isn&amp;#039;t a main feature of Shinzen&amp;#039;s public teachings.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:31:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573328</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T14:31:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573325</link> <description>There are debates in Buddhism but suppressing a sense of self is aversion which should also feel like a self.  You need a sense of likes and dislikes but to cling to them less.  It&amp;#039;s hard to say that Daniel is against a sense of self when his book talks about how emotions are still apart of you even if you&amp;#039;re an arhat.  He also posted that all the meditation masters he&amp;#039;s met have signs of emotions on their faces.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The main goal that teachers look at is whether greed, hate and delusion are greatly attenuated.  Shinzen&amp;#039;s interview in batgap talks about preparation for extreme things like Syrian torture.  This shows there&amp;#039;s a gradation and most people (including masters) aren&amp;#039;t anywhere near a Syrian jail and if they were suprised without prepration they would fail.  I think desire and ill will continue on in all people but it&amp;#039;s reduced enough so that they can pursue higher values and in some people it&amp;#039;s not gone far enough and they are living hypocritically.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This makes sense in myself in that I have gradually more disenchantment but it&amp;#039;s nowhere near 100% and I don&amp;#039;t believe I&amp;#039;ll achieve that or even want that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the same interview Shinzen talks about how despite the blissfulness of awakening, people still have sexual relations.  These are big flags to show people what awakening is and what it is not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I personally like the idea of monks who have strong sexual desires to disrobe and live a layman&amp;#039;s life.  They should shack up with someone like Stephen and Martine Batchelor did.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:28:38 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573325</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T14:28:38Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573318</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;sawfoot _:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn&amp;#039;t suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.sasakiarchive.com/&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Sawfoot can we please have this thread focus on the question in regards to Shinzen. This was posted in the sub-forum for Shinzen not Sasaki. Have you worked with Shinzen&amp;#039;s methods ?</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:33:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573318</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T13:33:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573293</link> <description>Interesting advice there from Joshu Sasaki Roshi. I am presuming he wasn&amp;#039;t suppressing his sense of self with all that sexual abuse of his students that liked to engage in. Or was it expression of his enlightened nature?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.sasakiarchive.com/</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:11:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573293</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T11:11:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Not to suppress his sense of self</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573280</link> <description>In this interview (2009) Shinzen says he learned n&lt;span style="font-family: Museo&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x20;Neue&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;ot to suppress his sense of self.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;amp;v=CdP1gQBlvAE&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I assume this is part of what he teaches too. It seems a little different from hte explanations I&amp;#039;ve heard of a non-dual &amp;#034;enlightened&amp;#034; for example as described by Daniel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would be great to hear more about Shinzen&amp;#039;s take on this. Thanks.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:29:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573280</guid> <dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-25T10:29:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5239437</link> <description>There is research on psilocybin occasioning mystical experience (Griffiths). And we know that the minds of advanced meditators (Brewer) and those on psilocybin (Carhart-Harris) show great similarity (decrease in default or wandering mind mode network). There&amp;#039;s something there, but I guess it is a tricky discussion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BTW I&amp;#039;m not sure you could pay me to take a drug that makes you puke, like peyote or ayahuasca.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re aware of the progress of insight stages, I would certainly recommend not taking stuff like this during the dukka nanas. And my thinking is that you need to already be in the ballpark of the A&amp;amp;P to get the A&amp;amp;P on substances. Although admittedly the A&amp;amp;P is not very far into the thing. If one is close enough, a substance could help grease the wheels as well as make it a bigger experience. Thus the experiences one hears about.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2014 19:32:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5239437</guid> <dc:creator>Eric G</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-27T19:32:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5227780</link> <description>I love Daniels description of it on this thread &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;423869&amp;#x3b;jsessionid&amp;#x3d;DA888AF25D7862420610356397882A45&amp;#x3f;_19_threadView&amp;#x3d;tree"&gt;ayahuasca&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;for other takes on it good and bad ---&lt;br /&gt;Search google ---&amp;gt; site:http://www.dharmaoverground.org ayahuasca</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Feb 2014 22:11:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5227780</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-23T22:11:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5227566</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paul Anthony:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi Sohil, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with you, the experience itself doesn&amp;#039;t seem to yield much in terms of insight in the moment. For me, this brings up another problem with many of the discussions around psychedelics and dharma - there is often a total focus on the &amp;#039;high&amp;#039; itself. But if these powerful substances affect behaviour and experience over a much longer term, then this needs to be looked at from a longer view. Also, it&amp;#039;s apparently possible to take psychedelics at very low doses (so no high at all) and still see interesting effects. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks, Paul&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All of my experiences with mushrooms have been full of heavily Mayan, archetypal imagery, but the experience itself (or whatever consciousness lies behind that experience) has much the quality of &amp;#034;Irishness&amp;#034; about it; its all about the rolling hills and daffodils and the land of Fay etc. But the biggest thing that I take out of these trips has been a message about morality in its most elemental sense, deeply connected to the natural world. I find this interesting, and it ought to be studied more, potentially as a riposte to those who feel that morality is only socially constructed and also to those who think morality has naught to do with the physical brain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had one extremely bad trip that put me into the hospital for a month. It involved some common elements that led to bad trips in the past. These are: over eagerness for an altered state (I want it ALL, NOW), taking LSD, alone, on a whim (never a good idea), and having no intention to guide the trip. But this isn&amp;#039;t what sent me to the psych ward. The culmination happened the next day, when I combined one of the most sacred chemicals with a deleriant in a high dose, a chemical experiment which has surely gone down in medical literature somewhere. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After that, the only things I&amp;#039;ve done are pot, some other sacred herbs, and one Morning Glory seed trip that was one of the most healing experiences of my life. I took a low dose, but I was definitely &amp;#034;high&amp;#034;; the healing took place below my conciousness as I spent the trip playing guitar and learning a lot about how to &amp;#034;be&amp;#034; the notes. That trip cleared my lingering depression for almost half a year, although I continued to take SSRI&amp;#039;s, I found I could take much lower amounts of them and still be on an even keel, so to speak. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I&amp;#039;m only interested in altered states if they enhance my ordinary state of consciousness. I plan on going to the Amazon in 5 or 7 years to experience ayahuasca, as I&amp;#039;ve always had an interest in shamanism, and even if I&amp;#039;m still in DN territory aya is supposed to be good for that. In fact, I feel like all of my meditative practice, A&amp;amp;P and post A&amp;amp;P experiences, are good preparation for whatever lies behind the waterfall, but I could be fooling myself and I&amp;#039;ll just be soul raped by elves for 8 hours. But i&amp;#039;m definitely going one of these days (perhaps we could organize a combo meditation retreat/aya trek for those interested).</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:30:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5227566</guid> <dc:creator>Hazard J Gibbons</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-02-23T19:30:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Enlightened teacher: Shinzen Young in Hamilton (11/9/13)</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4872288</link> <description>Yesterday i attended the afternoon session of a Shinzen talk/retreat in Hamilton, Ontario. He was in good form, delivering his talk over 7hrs and fielding questions with ease though he is ~70yrs old. i spoke with him a few times and what sticks in my memory is this: even though we were eating, and im pretty sure he had a coffee, and though i dont think he had time to brush his teeth--he had good breath!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don&amp;#039;t the scriptures describe one of the benefits of enlightenment as having good breath? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Alex</description> <pubDate>Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:37:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4872288</guid> <dc:creator>Alex L.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-11-10T17:37:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4696180</link> <description>Hi Tarver,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This point of yours I especially like: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have no idea about the context and comprehensiveness of the financial details disclosed in the public record&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think it would be really nice to accompany a dharma corporation&amp;#039;s financial (990) posting with a teacher/founder interview and getting the teacher&amp;#039;s thoughts on what it&amp;#039;s like to found a company around dharma and some of the lessons they&amp;#039;d want to share with the dharma and non-profit corporate community. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When you approach your teacher, perhaps consider raising an interview opportunity. It could take the rest of this fall to organize a nice interview and a template for this sort of thing so that anyone can take up a 990-interview toolkit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Why?&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So this sort of financial dharma section (and I&amp;#039;d like to develop dharma economy models threads, next month, too): &lt;br /&gt;a) would create an opportunity for dharma teachers to share in one area their experience of creating a dharma corporation; there&amp;#039;s quite a body of dharma corporations now, and&lt;br /&gt;b) this not only gives a place for 990 information, AND gives a little life for the numbers (re: addresses your excerpted words above) while being more personable than the standard corporate summary one sees on charity review sites,&lt;br /&gt;c) and dharma teachers could also pass on what they like seeing in other corporations and/or directions they&amp;#039;d hope to nurture, and&lt;br /&gt;d) take up corporate and fiscal integrity, for which there is a big niche right now, with real delight, like it&amp;#039;s a pleasure to run transparent corporations with openness for the public trust, which is for oneself, ultimately.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Corporation dharma is still pretty new, yet has a few decades worth of companies now with some longevity, and has distinctions from monastic dharma centers, diverse in themselves, and from each other. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;u&gt;Pragmatic?&lt;/u&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s also a pragmatic dharma issue as people here commonly want to know which systems and teachers can they trust; the answers and clarity there directly relate to how quickly a person can choose and just focus on their practice. It really can be just 1-2 posts as anyone feels inclined to post:&lt;br /&gt;1) the 990 or country-equivalent, and &lt;br /&gt;2) an interview if the founder/teacher is willing</description> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Sep 2013 17:33:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4696180</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-12T17:33:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4692175</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Rob Wynge:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Has Shinzen gone back to Touch, Sight, Sound, Feel, Image, Talk instead of See In/Out, Hear In/Out, Feel In/Out?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen has not, but I have... sort of. I actually teach both vocabularies because they are useful for different things. Moreover, there is a significant corpus of extant videos, CD&amp;#039;s, and texts that use the old vocabulary. Technically, within the current formulation of Basic Mindfulness, the old vocabulary is a &amp;#034;custom labels&amp;#034; option. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Rob Wynge:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I actually like the old method better. Saying two words slows me down. Sometimes I&amp;#039;ll just say &amp;#034;See, Hear, Feel&amp;#034; since it&amp;#039;s pretty obvious whether it&amp;#039;s in or out.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You are not alone. Although &amp;#034;slowing you down&amp;#034; is definitely an issue, I believe there is a deeper and even more significant issue. The compound vocabulary is better (I think) for &lt;em&gt;discussing&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;teaching&lt;/em&gt; the practice, because speaking and thinking in &amp;#034;sentences&amp;#034; gives rise to understanding, and the compound labels are like sentences with a verb and an object. The single-word vocabulary is (again, I think) better for &lt;em&gt;doing&lt;/em&gt; the practice, because pointing and naming clarifies perception. Of course, it is hard to get someone to &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; something unusual like vipassana unless they first &lt;em&gt;understand&lt;/em&gt; clearly enough what they are supposed to do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for mentioning this. I am collecting case reports exactly such as this.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 19:39:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4692175</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T19:39:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tarver teaching on September HPP</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691658</link> <description>Tarver - this is great, congrats! I can&amp;#039;t join this month, but my wife and I have done several of the HPP workshops and have gotten a lot out of them.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:51:04 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691658</guid> <dc:creator>Rob Wynge</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T16:51:04Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691648</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;﻿ Tarver ﻿:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; If you were to train yourself to narrate your stream of experience to yourself using, say, only the nine words &amp;#034;Touch, Sight, Sound, Feel, Image, Talk, Rest, Flow, and Gone&amp;#034; you would thereby constrain yourself to return over and over and over again to the experiential activity, letting the objects (the &amp;#034;content&amp;#034;) of your experience take care of itself. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Has Shinzen gone back to Touch, Sight Sound, Feel, Image, Talk instead of See In/Out, Hear In/Out, Feel In/Out? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I actually like the old method better. Saying two words slows me down. Sometimes I&amp;#039;ll just say &amp;#034;See, Hear, Feel&amp;#034; since it&amp;#039;s pretty obvious whether it&amp;#039;s in or out.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:48:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691648</guid> <dc:creator>Rob Wynge</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T16:48:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691082</link> <description>Hi Tarver, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your thoughts and thanks to Sweet-E for looking at this with you. Amazing: I think it would turn most people to dust. She&amp;#039;s hardy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;In the meantime, if you want to talk about the mind, consciousness, or other topics of that ilk I&amp;#039;m right there. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Yup, I&amp;#039;m subscribed I think to your column on Leslie Dewart (né Gonzalo Gonzales Duarte) still, no? I haven&amp;#039;t seen an update in months. Am I still subscribed, do you think? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;In fact, I&amp;#039;ll do it: I will send a link to this thread to Shinzen himself and a few of his peeps so if there&amp;#039;s anything that really needs to be dealt with, the appropriate competent and responsible people will get on it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Awesome. I actually speculate this school is one of the well-suited entities to help lift the transparency standards. There&amp;#039;s no need to excuse paying for something that their root teacher (Gotama) gave out freely; just being open, easy to understand and accountable about all spending. People understand. It will probably garner more support if done well and whole-heartedly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Even if groups have troubles in their past (not that there are here), in 12-24 months of great tidy up, people tend to love and support honesty and transparency...especially when people want to know, &amp;#034;Where are my limited dollars best shared? How can I see exactly how they are using money?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes &lt;a href=""&gt;on the HPP &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(the details of which I think are: SEPTEMBER 15 (Sunday AM) - Focus In&lt;br /&gt;5:00 am to 9:00 am Pacific / 8:00 am to 12:00 pm Eastern, $20, Leader: Tarver, with reading from Shinzen&amp;#039;s freely provided manual &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;shinzen&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Retreat&amp;#x25;20Reading&amp;#x2f;FiveWays&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;Five Ways to Know Yourself&lt;/a&gt;) So there you have it.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 14:04:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4691082</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T14:04:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4690966</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Best wishes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks, but look, I am so the wrong person to talk to about this. I asked Sweet-E to look this over and she said you have a point. I was surprised, because honestly I can&amp;#039;t see it. There is a disconnect. Something doesn&amp;#039;t add up. I realized that I must have a blind spot around this. You know how if you try to raise certain topics with certain people -- veganism, climate change, alcoholism, and even meditation itself all come to mind -- at first you get a blank stare, and if you persist they react poorly and irrationally, even if what you are trying to tell them is &amp;#034;true&amp;#034;? Well, I&amp;#039;m like that in the area of paperwork, taxes, and bureaucracy. It&amp;#039;s not that I am in favour of wrongdoing or ripping people off or being a bad citizen or any kind of evil, it&amp;#039;s just that I have something between a phobia and a learning disability around certain clerical topics. A few years ago I had to go to a government office to deal with a minor matter and by the time I got to the clerk I was visibly shaking and my shirt was totally soaked with sweat. I apologized for my condition and she very patiently and kindly walked me through what we had to do. The whole episode was humiliating. I have certain strengths and talents, but this, for me, is a glaring weakness. If you try to start a conversation with me with anything like &amp;#034;Hey, you need to deal with Government Form XYZ...&amp;#034; even if you are right and what you are saying is true (and you are solidly convinced that it is &amp;#034;helpful&amp;#034;), what I will hear is &amp;#034;I am the Devil and I am here to eat you and destroy your world.&amp;#034; You may well be onto something, but it isn&amp;#039;t my department. Please stop quoting me. Katy, you updated this thread about 90 times yesterday. I get a notification every single time. I don&amp;#039;t wish to unsubscribe, because I monitor the entire Shinzen section where every once in a while I try to answer questions that I am competent to answer. As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with Basic Mindfulness -- although it&amp;#039;s within a &amp;#034;blind spot&amp;#034; to which I am admitting, so maybe it might, but I doubt it. I am quite sure that I have done nothing wrong, and I do not wish to discuss taxes or paperwork -- no, that&amp;#039;s putting it too mildly. My worst nightmare, my living hell, my re-traumatizing trigger-point is being confronted with and dragged into this shit. I am triggered and angry just thinking about it. It really is like stepping into shit for me... I get feelings of disgust and anger, strong feelings... how do I wipe this off and prevent it from happening? Fight, flight, or freeze! Fuck off already! These kinds of feelings. Yes, of course, this is wonderful fodder for further practice and personal growth. I&amp;#039;ll get right on it. In the meantime, if you want to talk about the mind, consciousness, or other topics of that ilk I&amp;#039;m right there. But if you want to talk about paperwork, &amp;#034;filing&amp;#034; of any kind, corporate blah blah blah, or &amp;#034;transparency&amp;#034; or suchlike, please seek out the administrative people who handle such things, or the government bureaucrats or whoever, and talk to them. In fact, I&amp;#039;ll do it: I will send a link to this thread to Shinzen himself and a few of his peeps so if there&amp;#039;s anything that really needs to be dealt with, the appropriate competent and responsible people will get on it.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 13:21:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4690966</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T13:21:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689713</link> <description>Tarver:&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;When I was at CML, Soryu reminded me of a teaching of the Buddha that some things are true to say, some things are useful to say, some are both, and some are neither. The idea was to stick to what is both true and useful.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Indeed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;but basically the overall tone is somewhere in the range of tabloid journalism and/or an accusation of wrongdoing. (...)These posts of yours, however, seem accusatory, inflammatory, and in one carefully chosen word: unhelpful.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Is this true and useful? You could support your statements here if they are true versus created beliefs. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For me, &lt;br /&gt; -- transparency and even delight in transparency is useful time and again, and &lt;br /&gt; -- expresses appreciation graciously and skillfully for being accepted and publicly supported as a non-profit entity&lt;br /&gt; -- it helps uncertain students to see the 990 history when paying a teacher; I&amp;#039;d encourage 990 sharing here.&lt;br /&gt; -- 990 sharing helps an organization earn trust and more support.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will also find that, personally, I have included thanks this teacher in the past two weeks elsewhere. It is unrelated to this thread, so I feel in stating it that your emotions are being placated where they could be placid naturally through clearly seeing. Still it may help you to know that, so there it is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; I don&amp;#039;t get any wrongdoing vibe from Shinzen, CML, the HPP, or any of the other fun, interesting, and helpful people I have been learning from and getting increasingly involved with lately, up to and including recently being invited to offer these cool and clever teachings through one of the established channels.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;Good. Nor do I. Otherwise I would have said so clearly and with support.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Speculating, based on just going to the center once, I do think your teacher and his colleagues could handle this transparency well if it is brought to their attention. Accountability and transparency are great friends to a business and monastery alike. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;[edited: we&amp;#039;ve covered it]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The number of people on the call makes no difference to the pay, but by the time Emily is also paid (and I assume and dearly hope she is paid, although I don&amp;#039;t know for sure), and overhead is taken into account, Shinzen may even lose money on a first-time junior facilitator such as myself, because subscriptions to undiscovered gems such as moi-meme always run at a fraction of what Shinzen gets.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; You mentioned in your thread that hundreds participate. So it&amp;#039;s probably okay at $20/pp even if it&amp;#039;s a handful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And you&amp;#039;re learning for yourself a difference between teaching dharma for dana (gift, generosity, including none at all) versus charging a payment (dealing with overhead, profit, compensation) while also being a non-profit guest of the public and the public&amp;#039;s generosity by way of offering non-profit status, free provision of municipal services, funds, etc. Many great teachers taught freely, accepting dana, receiving no dana, and then the dana of &amp;#034;just practice sincerely; sincere practice is more than enough payment&amp;#034;. And the dharma lineage began with no payment, just dana if dana was offered.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 02:18:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689713</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T02:18:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689320</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;katy steger:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Tarver, you seem well-placed to help with their transparency and I hope you do.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, perhaps, but mostly no.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am torn between ignoring this, responding offline, responding... I guess I am responding publicly, though with misgivings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea about the finances of the many organizations that Shinzen is involved with, for it is literally exactly none of my business. As for me being paid, Jee-zus, Katy! Will you please just chill?! I get paid less for doing a session of the HPP than it costs me every month to run the phone and Internet lines on which I will do the call. The number of people on the call makes no difference to the pay, but by the time Emily is also paid (and I assume and dearly hope she is paid, although I don&amp;#039;t know for sure), and overhead is taken into account, Shinzen may even lose money on a first-time junior facilitator such as myself, because subscriptions to undiscovered gems such as &lt;em&gt;moi-meme&lt;/em&gt; always run at a fraction of what Shinzen gets. I took the gig before I even knew there was any payment. I hesitate to discuss this because it is so totally beside the point, and because it isn&amp;#039;t my place to disclose the internal details of organizations that yes, I participate in, but no, I don&amp;#039;t actually speak for, unless perhaps you would like help distinguishing your thoughts from your emotions in which case maybe I can help you out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I was at CML, Soryu reminded me of a teaching of the Buddha that some things are true to say, some things are useful to say, some are both, and some are neither. The idea was to stick to what is both true and useful. Katy, my impression of these multiple posts of yours is that they may be true -- some government form or other... some tax status something... some abstract virtue of accountability/transparency this or that... but basically the overall tone is somewhere in the range of tabloid journalism and/or an accusation of wrongdoing. I don&amp;#039;t get any wrongdoing vibe from Shinzen, CML, the HPP, or any of the other fun, interesting, and helpful people I have been learning from and getting increasingly involved with lately, up to and including recently being invited to offer these cool and clever teachings through one of the established channels. And being invited to teach on the HPP is a real blessing and privilege and pleasure for me; I thought I would share my joy and mention it here. These posts of yours, however, seem accusatory, inflammatory, and in one carefully chosen word: unhelpful. Please desist. If you want to know more, contact me offline if you like.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mods, if there is even one more post to this thread -- or even right now, for that matter -- perhaps you might consider moving this thread to the Dharma Battleground.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Sep 2013 00:08:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689320</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-11T00:08:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689242</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Nikolai .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Matthew Horn:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, it is ultimately Daniel&amp;#039;s call, but I&amp;#039;m not sure the DhO, a practice-focused forum, is an appropriate venue for bringing a wayward meditation teacher to justice, especially if you won&amp;#039;t name the teacher in question (so we know not to sit retreats with that person).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this really help people&amp;#039;s practice, katy?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It might, Nikolai. I suppose that&amp;#039;s a personal decision. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Objectively, it seems that the paid/non-profit dharma service providers and the paying dharma service buyers can benefit. In the United States, services like Charity Navigator have helped well-run, transparent non-profits become better funded because &lt;strong&gt;people are attracted to honesty and openness; the more of it the better.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) So, ready honesty and openness can benefit centres like CML and Shinzen&amp;#039;s other affiliates (e.g., Vipassana Support International). And I have just mentioned the bare minimum --- the Form 990 --- which is required and can be linked easily each year as a PDF. I suspect if they disclose more and fully they will have more support because transparency and clear conduct rightly builds trust.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;2) Simply linking PDF Form 990s also benefits the entire dharma service community by upholding sila, good reasonable standards of ethical discipline and right speech and right livelihood. Linking Form 990s is a very simple and incredibly easy administrative feat that contributes to a basically good standard, though nothing exceptional. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3) Students can practice and not worry about paying for dharma. They can see for themselves the innards of their organization (corporate satipatthana?).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4) &lt;em&gt;It can benefit those who truly do not have any incomes or control over their sustenance. If an organization does not rejoice in showing what they&amp;#039;ve been generously paid for their services and their tax relief/municipal services gifted by the community at large, then I can turn my dollars to those that cannot currently earn monies and sustain or advocate for themselves, e.g., human beings incapable of providing livelihood or self-sustenance at a moment (e.g., war, disaster), and/or advocacy for the earth/environments and non-human sentients.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dhamma can be had and shared freely; those are its roots, provided by the founder a looong time ago. It is a surprise to me that I had to hunt for the Form 990, hence part of why there is this thread. A community that highlights study, careful looking, seeing for oneself could delight in contributing to the positive change in finance and economies big and small. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We hopefully have many more decades to come as a richly diverse planet and that outcome relates to causes like governance and transparency. Unless booted from the forum for asking for/posting 990s, then I&amp;#039;ll start a buddhist economics thread next month based on some studies I started reading this week &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Religious traditions and institutions seem to regularly face scrutiny, so their own economic lessons and conduct can offer nice standards and lessons for secular economic changes and how we give rise to planet/life conditions in the coming years, including sentient well-being.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 22:05:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689242</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T22:05:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689236</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Also, it is ultimately Daniel&amp;#039;s call, but I&amp;#039;m not sure the DhO, a practice-focused forum, is an appropriate venue for bringing a wayward meditation teacher to justice, especially if you won&amp;#039;t name the teacher in question (so we know not to sit retreats with that person).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I don&amp;#039;t assume this person intended to deceive people nor do I assume they were wayward about money. I researched their statements, found other revenue streams, discussed it with a condition of anonymity with one person, and then discussed it privately with the teachers senior student who then raised the point with their host group and their teacher. This way allows their non-profit corporation to privately consider what they say, and they can decide should they say, &amp;#034;This teacher&amp;#039;s only source of income is dana,&amp;#034; which it was not. If I thought they were deliberately abusing students I would bring this forward, Matthew, like you&amp;#039;ve mentioned. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When Tarver posted an advertisement about his paid class on the DhO a few days ago without disclosing that it was an advertisement for paid class it caused me to wonder about Shinzen&amp;#039;s corporate structure and his value of transparency. It is a surprise to me when an organization that can simply link its financial documents does not happily do so. Because non-profits exist on the generosity of the public paying for their service infrastructure, it&amp;#039;s just good sense and gracious to offer the public openly and easily their books, that 990s which the government requires. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no shame in that disclosure. On the contrary it is a reciprocal gift to the public, &amp;#034;You trust us non-profit structure and offer us the benefits of infrastructure without tax contributions. Thank you, we offer you at least what we must give the government.&amp;#034; They could always disclose more than the bare minimum, too.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:41:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689236</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T21:41:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689209</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Matthew Horn:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, it is ultimately Daniel&amp;#039;s call, but I&amp;#039;m not sure the DhO, a practice-focused forum, is an appropriate venue for bringing a wayward meditation teacher to justice, especially if you won&amp;#039;t name the teacher in question (so we know not to sit retreats with that person).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does this really help people&amp;#039;s practice, katy?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:26:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689209</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T21:26:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689078</link> <description>I find the OP confusing. You list CML&amp;#039;s tax identification with some empty fields at the top of the post, then state &amp;#034;This thread is started because &lt;strong&gt;I attend a retreat (not one by this tax-free ID)&lt;/strong&gt; in 2012 in which the teacher noted their only source of income was dana (&amp;#034;generosity&amp;#034;; commonly a call for donations after retreat payment). Some research found this dharma teacher involved in for-profit and non-profit businesses as well as drawing their pension; there is no good reason students would not be made aware of these revenues particularly when there is the call for &amp;#034;dana&amp;#034; (generosity) given at the end of a retreat, particularly when it has been said, &amp;#034;This is the teacher&amp;#039;s only source of income.&amp;#034; Regardless, it is a wise teacher who discloses this when taking money from students who are in dukkha. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Further, there was undisclosed profit-sharing of dana by the hosting organization and the teacher. Therefore the organization&amp;#039;s affective call for dana monies was also self-interested.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Emphasis mine. If the guilty teacher didn&amp;#039;t run this particular retreat at CML (&amp;#034;not one by this tax-free ID&amp;#034;), why show CML&amp;#039;s tax information at the top of the OP? This incident report would be more comprehensible if you were to identify the teacher who made the misstatement, where the retreat took place, what you want the teacher and the center to do about the misconduct, along with any documentation you have, including any records of communication with the teacher and the center about this issue.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, it is ultimately Daniel&amp;#039;s call, but I&amp;#039;m not sure the DhO, a practice-focused forum, is an appropriate venue for bringing a wayward meditation teacher to justice, especially if you won&amp;#039;t name the teacher in question (so we know not to sit retreats with that person).</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 20:35:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4689078</guid> <dc:creator>Matthew Horn</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T20:35:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688932</link> <description>Here&amp;#039;s my OP then. Tsetse, I hope the above satisfies your interest in connection:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;9/7/13 8:41 AM&lt;br /&gt; Reply&lt;br /&gt; Reply with Quote&lt;br /&gt;Company: Center for Mindful Learning Inc&lt;br /&gt;Tax Identification: 364695073 &lt;br /&gt;% NANCY KAPLAN &lt;br /&gt;177 N PROSPECT ST &lt;br /&gt;BURLINGTON &lt;br /&gt;VT 05401-1607&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Filing year: 2012&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Form 990 Revenue Amount: $208,442&lt;br /&gt;What is a Form 990? A tax filing for organizations that pay no taxes (tax-exempt groups).&lt;br /&gt;Compensation/Salaries: (to be supplied, anyone)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assets: $85, 572&lt;br /&gt;Assets are: (to be supplied, anyone)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Affiliated/umbrella companies: (to be supplied, anyone)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To be updated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Source: Internal Revenue Service&lt;br /&gt;www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/eo_vt.xls‎&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_________________________&lt;br /&gt;This thread is started because I attend a retreat (not one by this tax-free ID) in 2012 in which the teacher noted their only source of income was dana (&amp;#034;generosity&amp;#034;; commonly a call for donations after retreat payment). Some research found this dharma teacher involved in for-profit and non-profit businesses as well as drawing their pension; there is no good reason students would not be made aware of these revenues particularly when there is the call for &amp;#034;dana&amp;#034; (generosity) given at the end of a retreat, particularly when it has been said, &amp;#034;This is the teacher&amp;#039;s only source of income.&amp;#034; Regardless, it is a wise teacher who discloses this when taking money from students who are in dukkha. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Further, there was undisclosed profit-sharing of dana by the hosting organization and the teacher. Therefore the organization&amp;#039;s affective call for dana monies was also self-interested.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Corporate transparency is a useful metric everywhere. I hope this sort of tracking in a public dhamma forum will encourage paid teachers and their tax-free corporate structures to disclose their revenues and income, and for students to ask about this, though it is hard when students are in dukkha and wanting the shelter of family/acceptance/need for instruction so great they will pay for it. For example, when paying a paid dhamma teacher who is also receiving funds through a tax exempt structure, the students receipt could include the income, revenue, assets and salary disbursements. Disclosure takes up very little space on a receipt.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is not a ban/criticism on paying/paid teachers. To each their own; mind is the forerunner of all dhammas, so intentions bear fruit. Troubles and aid can arise equally in paid and free systems.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is Thanissaro Bhikkhu on dana, &amp;#034;No Strings Attached: the Culture of Buddha&amp;#039;s Generosity&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Excerpt:&lt;br /&gt;Thanissaro Bhikkhu: &amp;#034;How can I ever repay you?&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Ajahn Fuang: &amp;#034;By being intent on practicing.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;___________________&lt;br /&gt;Tarver: &lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; &lt;strong&gt;It is extremely difficult -- all but impossible -- to raise the topic of money without also implying a criticism. Unless you wish to level an allegation of impropriety, best to leave it alone; simply maintain noble silence.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since tsetse fly seemed unaware of the connection between Shinzen and CML, I have taken the time to spell it out, because I hope that this information will be helpful. Scrutinizing CML&amp;#039;s finances in this forum -- indeed, even raising the topic of them -- I don&amp;#039;t think is very helpful, unless you think there is a problem whose resolution would benefit from the exposure. For my part, I detect no financial or any other kind of impropriety at CML whatsoever.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To summarize:&lt;br /&gt;- Katy, I am annoyed with you for even raising this, but hopefully my explanation will be helpful.&lt;br /&gt;- Yes, CML is affiliated with Shinzen.&lt;br /&gt;- I was there, and stand as a witness to the fact that they are a Good Thing and certainly no den of opulence.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;You can be annoyed, but you are asserting an unwholesome basis from and for your own mind, the forerunner of all actions. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Tarver, you seem well-placed to help with their transparency and I hope you do. I think this action would garner more support for them if they are absolutely forthright in their finances, and at a minimum making their 990s available easily.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not share your negative projection on financial transparency. I know that corporations that are easily transparent and honest actually do better business; people rightly trust honesty and transparency.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I added bold emphasis. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Unless you would have shame for the payments you&amp;#039;ve made and/or for the system that requires payment for dharma teaching (scholarships excepting), there are only wholesome reasons for helping their generously tax-paying and supporting public obtain the public data (Form 990s) for each year of corporate operations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know why they don&amp;#039;t do it for themselves, actually. It is literally just linking PDFs, the annual Form 990 package.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:03:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688932</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T19:03:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688909</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Also, I have the opening post if anyone wants it restored.&lt;/strong&gt; I would repost it with more affiliate information per the request of the DhO participant &amp;#034;Tsetse&amp;#034;. It includes some of the Form 990 information I was able to find in a big Internal Revenue Service excel spreadsheet and why I decided to start threads that include paid-dharma tax information.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Again, I know this financial transparency serves a wholesome purpose (and it is super-easy to do: PDF-link the Form 990s and associated docs to the paid-dharma website), that good honest accounting actually helps forthright organizations. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As stated in the opening post &lt;strong&gt;&amp;#034;This is not a ban/criticism on paying/paid teachers. To each their own; mind is the forerunner of all dhammas, so intentions bear fruit. Troubles and aid can arise equally in paid and free systems.&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I, myself, am glad that there have been great human teachers, secular and spiritual, who&amp;#039;ve passed on freely their knowledge on being, studying being/here, and being well. I&amp;#039;m grateful that I&amp;#039;m on a site that has been paid for for me/us to practice sincerely.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is Thanissaro Bhikkhu on dana, &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;thanissaro&amp;#x2f;nostringsattached&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;&amp;#034;No Strings Attached: the Culture of Buddha&amp;#039;s Generosity&amp;#034;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Excerpt:&lt;br /&gt;Thanissaro Bhikkhu: &lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;How can I ever repay you?&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ajahn Fuang:&lt;em&gt; &amp;#034;By being intent on practicing.&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:51:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688909</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T18:51:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688873</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I feel annoyed with Katy for raising an apparently well-meaning but decidedly inherently controversial topic. Since it&amp;#039;s been raised, however, and since I know something about it, I will speak to it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s okay, Tarver.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please consider this in another light. This teacher and his students can separate themselves easily from trouble and opacity by simply providing what they are required to give the government each year on line via linked PDFs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This will also protect them from being associated with people who use their name. For example, the teacher I saw in 2012 (who I&amp;#039;m not interested in naming by name) who claimed a dana-only life and yet who had behind-the-scenes income and profit-sharing with their senior student(s), claimed your teacher as a friend. I hope that non-profit corporate dharma group has changed the way they do business and I fairly raised these points directly with the senior hosting students and host group. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I have no idea about the context and comprehensiveness of the financial details disclosed in the public record that Katy posted (for example, does that include just start-up donation funds, or also operating revenues?) but I would like to mention -- indeed to emphasise -- that my experience of CML was a case-study of ascetic frugality. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, Tarver, as you are a paid teacher for them (well, you teach a paid home-practice class that you mentioned hundreds attend) and use this site to advertise your class, would you also be the intermediary here and provide 990s? Would you like to introduce the topic to the employees of the corporation and affiliates? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is a healthy thing to do, transparency can help an organization thrive. Especially if they&amp;#039;re so frugal diligent with the payments made to them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you interpret this an unwholesome query, that would be your activity. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I, on the other hand know this financial transparency for non-profit, paid-dharma teaching corporations, to be a wholesome activity. The public is hosting them and paying for their access to public services and it would be good sense to just show what monies their students pay them, total income, assets etc... basic tax information. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many times totally honest transparency helps people and corporate entities earn trust and more support. Please consider working with me on this and, if you like, for the benefit of this company (or umbrella of companies) and for role-modeling a high standard of honesty and transparency.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For me, I am personally grateful that dharma is also made freely available and that in fact someone is paying for us to be able to study and share here. That there have been great humans throughout history sharing freely on being and being well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes,&lt;br /&gt;Katy</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:23:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688873</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T18:23:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688844</link> <description>Hi,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If he&amp;#039;s not, perhaps this should be moved elsewhere in order not to give the appearance of criticism of a well-respected teacher.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no criticism in providing a company&amp;#039;s tax-free income, assets, salaries and affiliates or a paid teacher&amp;#039;s income... Form 990 data.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The public supports these non-profits by paying for the non-profit corporations&amp;#039; portion of their received services (such as fire and safety...). It&amp;#039;s just gracious good sense for a non-profit to provide its annual Form 990s to its generous hosting public without requiring the public start writing letters. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I&amp;#039;ll write them to learn more unless you&amp;#039;ve found a link or a link has been added showing corporate structures, income/dusbursements from student payments, assets and so forth. He recommends them and is a guest teacher at CML&amp;#039;s residential entity. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, if the founder and sole provider of this site finds posting Tax ID and Form 990 data about dharma-based corporations, I certainly respect that. Here, he is taken something that was passed down through generations for free or for dana and he is not only not charging for it, but he is paying for us to have a place to access it and share practice. This is similar to accesstoinsight.org and numerous books monastics provide free for the taking.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes,&lt;br /&gt;Katy</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 18:08:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688844</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T18:08:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688771</link> <description>I feel annoyed with Katy for raising an apparently well-meaning but decidedly inherently controversial topic. Since it&amp;#039;s been raised, however, and since I know something about it, I will speak to it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CML is definitely affiliated with Shinzen. It is a start-up monastery in Burlington, VT, where Basic Mindfulness (Shinzen&amp;#039;s meditation system) is practiced and taught. It is located in the historic Friends (Quaker) meeting house. I was there recently for a week, as a practicing guest in residence and to further my training as a Basic Mindfulness facilitator.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Although he lives just a few blocks away, Shinzen is only occasionally there in person (and not once during my stay). He is, however, &amp;#034;there&amp;#034; pervasively in the spirit, style, and tone of the place; in the fact that Basic Mindfulness is the structuring principle for the contemplative practice so vigorously pursued there; and in the fact that just about everybody there (I think it&amp;#039;s safe to guess) has some sort of personal relationship with him.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But that&amp;#039;s just the thing: Shinzen doesn&amp;#039;t want people to depend upon him personally. Although he works tirelessly and is surrounded by a fluid team of assistants, staff, and supporters who put a great deal of effort into helping him schedule his every waking minute for maximum effectiveness, he just doesn&amp;#039;t have the time to work with enough people himself to do what needs to be done. This is why he has initiated a range of projects, including the annual cycle of retreats (assisted by his facilitators), software initiatives, the facilitator training program, the Home Practice Program (HPP), and of course CLM. The monastery itself is run by Soryu, whom Shinzen describes as his &amp;#034;colleague&amp;#034; and with whom he works very closely.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CML was a first-rate retreat experience for me, bringing to life the very best of contemporary pragmatic dharma: strong practice inspired by many streams of traditions from all over the world, all organized under Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;big tent&amp;#034; of a system. All of these ideas and practices are great and wonderful, but they also exist here and now, in the real world. Although much of the food we ate was grown in the garden, for example, it was cooked with power and the dishes washed with water that came from municipal utilities. That costs money.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no idea about the context and comprehensiveness of the financial details disclosed in the public record that Katy posted (for example, does that include just start-up donation funds, or also operating revenues?) but I would like to mention -- indeed to emphasise -- that my experience of CML was a case-study of ascetic frugality. Housing and feeding 10 people in an urban environment, to say nothing of connecting them to the Internet and supporting their surprisingly extensive community outreach activities, on an annual budget in the range of the numbers reported in the disclosure would be a remarkable achievement -- and like I said, I&amp;#039;m not sure how to read those numbers, because they may reflect one or more start-up donations, rather than just operating revenues. In fact, it&amp;#039;s not my business.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Money, like sex, is a topic around which there are social taboos for good reason. Knowing how much the other guy &amp;#034;got&amp;#034; without also knowing all of the corroborating contextual information (and perhaps even &amp;#034;walking a mile in their shoes&amp;#034;) only rarely leads to equanimous, empathic connection and harmony. Much more often such knowledge leads to jealousy, smug superiority, or other unwholesome less-than-perfectly-equanimous reactions. On the other hand, charities and nonprofits have legal requirements to disclose certain information to prevent abuses and maintain a certain level of transparency and accountability. That being said, publishing such information, even with a disclaimer about how &amp;#034;this is not a criticism&amp;#034; is different from having it on record, and leaving it there. It is extremely difficult -- all but impossible -- to raise the topic of money without also implying a criticism. Unless you wish to level an allegation of impropriety, best to leave it alone; simply maintain noble silence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Since tsetse fly seemed unaware of the connection between Shinzen and CML, I have taken the time to spell it out, because I hope that this information will be helpful. Scrutinizing CML&amp;#039;s finances in this forum -- indeed, even raising the topic of them -- I don&amp;#039;t think is very helpful, unless you think there is a problem whose resolution would benefit from the exposure. For my part, I detect no financial or any other kind of impropriety at CML whatsoever.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To summarize:&lt;br /&gt; - Katy, I am annoyed with you for even raising this, but hopefully my explanation will be helpful.&lt;br /&gt; - Yes, CML is affiliated with Shinzen.&lt;br /&gt; - I was there, and stand as a witness to the fact that they are a Good Thing and certainly no den of opulence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;EDIT: the original post seems to have been deleted (thank-you), but I&amp;#039;ll let my response stand, as I think it has value... and it took me an hour to write.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 17:40:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688771</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T17:40:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tax Identification: 364695073 Center for Mindful Learning</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688293</link> <description>Why is this under Shinzen Young? He doesn&amp;#039;t seem affiliated with them. If he&amp;#039;s not, perhaps this should be moved elsewhere in order not to give the appearance of criticism of a well-respected teacher.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 10 Sep 2013 13:30:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4688293</guid> <dc:creator>tsetse fly</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-10T13:30:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tarver teaching on September HPP</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4684432</link> <description>That&amp;#039;s okay. Good luck with it. It sounds like you&amp;#039;re preparing and excited.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This sort of thing does call into focus for me that I&amp;#039;m still blown away with gratitude and awe for the great humans who&amp;#039;ve come before us and passed on such worthwhile considerations on being alive, being at all, being well, and they&amp;#039;ve done so freely and sometimes at cost to their own comfort/well-being. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And then here specifically, on the DhO, there is actually this man paying for us to have an eSangha, so to speak, (Daniel, obviously : ) so that we may come from anywhere, share freely and openly, to study our own being, to shed debates, to take up being alive, being at all, being well.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;The payment being &amp;#034;practice sincerely&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s amazing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 09 Sep 2013 03:24:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4684432</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-09T03:24:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tarver teaching on September HPP</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4683532</link> <description>If you wish to participate and you can&amp;#039;t afford $20 for whatever reason, contact Emily (the administrator) and she can set you up with a &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;shinzen&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;MeditationTraining&amp;#x2f;scholarship_program&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;scholarship&lt;/a&gt;. I am not going to answer your direct question any more directly than to say, that if my motivation were to &amp;#034;make money&amp;#034; or in any way financially enrich myself, I would stay as far away from this line of &amp;#034;work&amp;#034; as most people in our culture in fact do.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 08 Sep 2013 18:33:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4683532</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-08T18:33:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Tarver teaching on September HPP</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4678798</link> <description>Hi Tarver, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It looks like this is a $20 paid program to look at one&amp;#039;s thoughts, feeling and sensations. Are you being paid for this? &lt;br /&gt;I think that&amp;#039;s relevant to know in an advertising post.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt; I am very excited to have been invited to lead a session.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Okay. Good luck.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Sep 2013 11:10:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4678798</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-07T11:10:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Tarver teaching on September HPP</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4677656</link> <description>I will be leading a session of the HPP on Sept. 15, on &amp;#034;Focus In&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For those who may not know, Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;Home Practice Program&amp;#034; (HPP) is a dial-in virtual retreat held every month on the second weekend. Shinzen and other facilitators teach and lead sessions with instruction, Q&amp;amp;A, and time for silent practice. Some people just call in for one or another segment, and other people set aside the whole weekend for a structured retreat which can be done anywhere with phone access. Hundreds of people call in from all over the world. I am very excited to have been invited to lead a session.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The registration deadline is Wednesday, Sept. 11: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;shinzen&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;MeditationTraining&amp;#x2f;2013_sept&amp;#x2e;htm"&gt;http://www.shinzen.org/MeditationTraining/2013_sept.htm&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 07 Sep 2013 03:32:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4677656</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-09-07T03:32:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4597233</link> <description>Robin, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have some personal experience in this area. I enjoy Shinzen Young&amp;#039;s teachings, but I generally follow Mahasi Sayadaw&amp;#039;s teachings more &amp;#039;to the letter&amp;#039;. If you look up Mahasi Sayadaw&amp;#039;s books, (i think the key one is &amp;#039;practical insight meditation&amp;#039; and it is on Google books for free), he gives some &lt;em&gt;very&lt;/em&gt; specific instructions about exactly how to note. Once you spend a little time with Mahasi&amp;#039;s instructions in formal sittings, trying to follow them precisely, you can try doing that style of intensive noting in daily tasks. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In my experience, it took time to be able to note very well at all, in daily tasks. For instance, walking down a busy street is still a challenge, and it is partly about &lt;u&gt;sense restraint &lt;/u&gt;in those situations. You can just experiment with these and find what works. If you are doing it appropriately and well, given your skill level at that time, then it can feel fairly liberating and restful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Note - I see Mahasi&amp;#039;s instructions as being very compatible with this aspect of Shinzen&amp;#039;s teachings. However, I don&amp;#039;t use the &amp;#039;In&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;Out&amp;#039; labels as does Shinzen, I&amp;#039;d say &amp;#039;Imagining, Recalling&amp;#039; for &amp;#039;In&amp;#039;, etc. I prefer the more exact labels, as I feel like my attention is &amp;#039;sharper&amp;#039; when i note very specifically.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am not enough of an authority to say exactly how daily life noting (not on retreat) can lead to progress on the path. For me, daily life noting can be very helpful alongside my sitting practice. A while ago, I felt that noting in a few daily tasks helped advance me up to A&amp;amp;P. Take that with a grain of salt though - who knows.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;*And as long as I am not over-exerting myself in daily life, trying to note everything, I find that periods of strong mindfulness during the day can help me be more calm and follow the precepts better. So I think that is very important as well. If you aren&amp;#039;t driving youself nuts trying to do too much at once, you can help fix up your lifestyle to be more calm and mindful. This all goes hand in hand with trying to be ethical in the first place, as well. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another suggestion, try to pick mundane tasks. As you already suggested. I will frequently do noting when walking to/from the bus, or if I am doing a very routine workout at the gym. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this was helpful. Again, try not to take on too much. Sometimes I would get worn out or feel a bit &amp;#039;spacey&amp;#039; if I was overdoing it. You need to find the right times to practice this, in my experience, and work up. Make sure you aren&amp;#039;t just falling into automatic noting of things, when your attention is really wandering off somewhere else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mike</description> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Aug 2013 18:17:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4597233</guid> <dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-20T18:17:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4596753</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Would there be a better, more &amp;#039;complete&amp;#039; noting vocabulary to adopt? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you think it would be possible to make progress along the paths doing this relentlessly for like 5-6 hours a day?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The most complete noting vocabulary (so complete that it isn&amp;#039;t normally considered noting vocabulary) would be the natural language in which people narrate their experience to themselves in their stream of thought. This of course passes without notice and isn&amp;#039;t considered &amp;#034;practice&amp;#034; -- on the contrary, in many circles, it is considered part of the problem to be overcome. The power of Shinzen&amp;#039;s closed vocabulary is that it utterly constrains one to be present to &amp;#034;insight&amp;#034; rather than &amp;#034;content&amp;#034;. Every conscious experience consists of an object and an activity. Most people, most of the time, are perfectly aware of their objects but only dimly or peripherally aware of the experiential activity. If you were to train yourself to narrate your stream of experience to yourself using, say, only the nine words &amp;#034;Touch, Sight, Sound, Feel, Image, Talk, Rest, Flow, and Gone&amp;#034; you would thereby constrain yourself to return over and over and over again to the experiential activity, letting the objects (the &amp;#034;content&amp;#034;) of your experience take care of itself. It is hard to do this &amp;#034;on purpose&amp;#034;, willfully, for hour after hour throughout the activities of daily life. But is is not that hard to do enough formal practice that the &amp;#034;habit&amp;#034; of being consciously present to this aspect of your stream of sensory experience -- which, as it turns out, is what makes it conscious -- remains increasingly available to you more or less continuously in real time, supplemented with the occasional nudge or burst of &amp;#034;formal practice&amp;#034; for a second or three, hundreds of time throughout the day, whenever it occurs to you. As that becomes true, at some point, the set-point kind of shifts and eventually a figure-ground reversal occurs, and perhaps paradoxically a certain truth becomes plainly obvious: on the one hand, &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; am doing my experience -- it is &lt;strong&gt;my&lt;/strong&gt; activity that is at work here; on the other hand, there is no &amp;#034;I&amp;#034;, just a a stream of (apparently) &amp;#034;my&amp;#034; experience. That, I believe, amounts to progress on the paths as this and related basic truths become self-evident and immediately available in real time.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:15:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4596753</guid> <dc:creator>﻿ Tarver ﻿</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-20T16:15:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4596550</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It&amp;#039;s just that I&amp;#039;ve suffered from depression for so long and I just want some external validation that I&amp;#039;m heading in the &amp;#039;right direction&amp;#039; with this and not just going more mental....&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;if depression is an issue then maybe you should concentrate on ways to make you feel better little faster than attaining full Enlightenment? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I mean like training concentration states of samatha jhanas or do some kind of metta meditation. Normal breath Jhana is definitely pleasurable as far as I can tell&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;if you have some specific good feeling you would want to experience more often then you can also train inducing them. There are many fine feeling that can be trained to make yourself feel that way</description> <pubDate>Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:31:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4596550</guid> <dc:creator>Paweł K</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-20T14:31:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591468</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It&amp;#039;s just that I&amp;#039;ve suffered from depression for so long and I just want some external validation that I&amp;#039;m heading in the &amp;#039;right direction&amp;#039; with this and not just going more mental...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Okay, I see what you&amp;#039;re saying, Robin, and know that sometimes external validation can be very healing and help us turn back more wholesomely into our own respective labs. Yes, that&amp;#039;s a great point, Robin. Thank you and best wishes.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Aug 2013 19:42:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591468</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-18T19:42:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591313</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Robin Woods:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Another annoying question I&amp;#039;m afraid guys - I just don&amp;#039;t have anyone else to talk to about this stuff....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you make of Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;3rd key moment&amp;#039; described here as his &amp;#039;boundaries vanishing&amp;#039;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this what HE refers to as &amp;#039;classical enlightenment&amp;#039;? How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OR, is this some kind of &amp;#039;non-dual awakening&amp;#039; which occurs &lt;u&gt;independently of one&amp;#039;s position on the path&lt;/u&gt;?!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I only ask &amp;#039;cos I&amp;#039;m pretty sure this happened to me (I can&amp;#039;t detect any boundaries in my &amp;#039;field of awareness&amp;#039; either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Great questions,&lt;br /&gt;I really like Shinzen Young and his videos are fantastic. I can&amp;#039;t wait until Daniel has enough time to do the same thing.&lt;br /&gt;Things to explore. copy and paste this into google and it will search within the dharmaoverground for the term - nondual&lt;br /&gt;site:www.dharmaoverground.org nondual&lt;br /&gt;site:www.dharmaoverground.org proprioception&lt;br /&gt;or to read Daniel&amp;#039;s take on it&lt;br /&gt;site:www.dharmaoverground.org nondual Ingram&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That is how I found this thread - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;396815"&gt;Is non-dual experience an illusion&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is a link to Shinzen Young on nondual - &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;mwOccTTAcVw"&gt;Non-Dual Awareness ~ Shinzen Young &lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have started to have experiences regarding changes in focus in dual/nondual perception since second path(and spoke to others that relate similar changes at 2nd path). Very minor compared to what is going on here. I speculate that 3rd path will deepen this but you would need input from those at this level to know where it happens or if it is a separate axis of development like chronoception.&lt;br /&gt;Explore the threads and come back and tell us what you think&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:46:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591313</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-18T18:46:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591046</link> <description>thanks Katy - I think I see where you&amp;#039;re coming from.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s just that I&amp;#039;ve suffered from depression for so long and I just want some external validation that I&amp;#039;m heading in the &amp;#039;right direction&amp;#039; with this and not just going more mental....</description> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Aug 2013 16:37:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4591046</guid> <dc:creator>Robin Woods</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-18T16:37:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4590820</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;to hear what other experienced yogis think of this 3rd event in his practice history. (...But the 3rd is...?) &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Have you met this person in person? Regarding that &amp;#034;3rd event&amp;#034; there&amp;#039;s nothing in-person pointing to something noteworthy there. It is noteworthy to them---the practitioner in your video link---and that person&amp;#039;s point is clearly just that their own meditation has changed their life. Why should there be more than that for any viewer of that account?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To make use of the ox-herding parable: a suffusive, thorough practice by oneself en&lt;em&gt;courages&lt;/em&gt; the practitioner to take up exactly the unknownness and the wholesome creativity of their own vast, brief life and releasing the easy gratification of moving in the trench of another ox, so to speak.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;YouTube, for example, abounds in evidence of people living lives extraordinarily (which can be very simple), contributing to the wonder of their own lives and sometimes in the view of others. What does it take to live one&amp;#039;s own life? Repeated close observation in one&amp;#039;s own life/mind/views and some regular freedom from one&amp;#039;s own blinders/ patterns. There&amp;#039;s a lot of simplicity in that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And that takes time. It&amp;#039;s is not easy. Comparably, to watch another&amp;#039;s practice, their structure, their apparent life and to want to mimic it---to climb a known ladder, that&amp;#039;s a natural move towards something easier and gratifying (relates to craving and clinging in a dharma model). If one can render that &amp;#034;teacher&amp;#034;&amp;#039;s life special, that can make a person feel better about their own move towards mimicry-gratification. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One outcome of suffusive, sincere meditation practice is to en-courage one to be alive without a goal of parroting and with a deep interest in life itself as one experiences it themselves. What teacher needs that in their followers? Meditation is like a four-year degree*** after which one takes it and applies it to own-life under lab conditions of care and close observation. And, yes, those first decade(s) of work are sometimes parroting...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe that is not happening here, but that&amp;#039;s my thought when I see people perseverate on what xyz-person has done.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;--------&lt;br /&gt;***to take the analogy further, perhaps the 4-yr degree is just the arena in which to get some basic meditative proficiency and that first release (technically, I think Gotama says it can take seven days to seven years), and then after stream-entry starts the personal thesis of to what activities should I specifically apply this knowledge (comparable to the massive effort of getting lost and found in a PhD). Many people may be stickily inclined to apply themselves to the dharma circuit, whereas I&amp;#039;d say join the dharma teaching circuit in retirement, be made a teacher only if there are students who will it, after a life of another application, or become monastic. Otherwise, one gives their dharma practice and steadying efforts to some activity(ies) worthwhile and suited to one&amp;#039;s being.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Aug 2013 13:38:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4590820</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-18T13:38:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4587506</link> <description>No cringing. Not necessary. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is a very valid question. Shinzen is a really interesting teacher and I would love to hear what other experienced yogis think of this 3rd event in his practice history. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first two seem kind of mundane. At a rough guess: Access concentration -&amp;gt; Reobservation/Equanimity in the MCTB terminology. But the 3rd is...?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2013 18:47:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4587506</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-17T18:47:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586843</link> <description>Yes, yes. I totally agree, Robin. Habits of a life time. Please don&amp;#039;t cringe. I follow your threads a bit and appreciate that you seem to be in a what can be maybe called a vigorous or effortful practice cycle for several months. It&amp;#039;s nice to run with that. I&amp;#039;m just looking at &amp;#034;leaking&amp;#034; energy (maybe?), where one&amp;#039;s focus wanders in the intensity of practice over months, and asking about that these foci, movements ostensibly away from practice, but maybe are sometimes just vents or even needed questions to build conviction or acknowledge doubt. Please, don&amp;#039;t cringe. I apologize that my own way of forming questions was not maybe softer.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2013 14:56:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586843</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-17T14:56:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586752</link> <description>*cringes* points taken. It&amp;#039;s hard changing the habits of a lifetime....</description> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2013 14:26:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586752</guid> <dc:creator>Robin Woods</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-17T14:26:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586654</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;What do you make of Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;3rd key moment&amp;#039; described here as his &amp;#039;boundaries vanishing&amp;#039;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;It is just something that matters to him, apparently. As a viewer via computer and in person, there is just a normal person.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this what HE refers to as &amp;#039;classical enlightenment&amp;#039;?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Try asking the claimant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OR, is this some kind of &amp;#039;non-dual awakening&amp;#039; which occurs independently of one&amp;#039;s position on the path?!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I only ask &amp;#039;cos I&amp;#039;m pretty sure this happened to me (I can&amp;#039;t detect any boundaries in my &amp;#039;field of awareness&amp;#039; either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt; Then it is you who can tell us/anyone more about the experience and how it lines up with anything you think it does.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;While we&amp;#039;re at it - where do the &amp;#039;contemporary enlightenment experiences&amp;#039; in The Three Pillars of Zen Line up with the MCTB model?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Do you want to become practiced in models comparison, in discursive posting, or is practice skill your intent?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:26:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4586654</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-17T13:26:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4583945</link> <description>Hi Sohil, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with you, the experience itself doesn&amp;#039;t seem to yield much in terms of insight in the moment. For me, this brings up another problem with many of the discussions around psychedelics and dharma - there is often a total focus on the &amp;#039;high&amp;#039; itself. But if these powerful substances affect behaviour and experience over a much longer term, then this needs to be looked at from a longer view. Also, it&amp;#039;s apparently possible to take psychedelics at very low doses (so no high at all) and still see interesting effects. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks, Paul</description> <pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2013 19:02:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4583945</guid> <dc:creator>Paul Anthony</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-16T19:02:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4583739</link> <description>My first vipassana experience was something like that;I had no clue about buddhism, meditation, sitting in strange flower-like positions and whatever, but I did relentlessly and with great effort (without noting) what Shinzen Young would call the outer way, so at every given moment I would focus on body, sounds and images all at once; after two weeks I hit the A&amp;amp;P, began reading, and sitting, and looking for vibrations and then things changed, but that was for sure an experiment that worked very well...</description> <pubDate>Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:11:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4583739</guid> <dc:creator>Mario Nistri</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-16T17:11:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4580618</link> <description>Another annoying question I&amp;#039;m afraid guys - I just don&amp;#039;t have anyone else to talk to about this stuff....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you make of Shinzen&amp;#039;s &amp;#039;3rd key moment&amp;#039; described here as his &amp;#039;boundaries vanishing&amp;#039;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this what HE refers to as &amp;#039;classical enlightenment&amp;#039;? How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OR, is this some kind of &amp;#039;non-dual awakening&amp;#039; which occurs &lt;u&gt;independently of one&amp;#039;s position on the path&lt;/u&gt;?!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I only ask &amp;#039;cos I&amp;#039;m pretty sure this happened to me (I can&amp;#039;t detect any boundaries in my &amp;#039;field of awareness&amp;#039; either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;While we&amp;#039;re at it - where do the &amp;#039;contemporary enlightenment experiences&amp;#039; in The Three Pillars of Zen Line up with the MCTB model?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Right I promise no more for a while......</description> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:12:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4580618</guid> <dc:creator>Robin Woods</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-15T21:12:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4561648</link> <description>from what I have noticed in my own humble observations with psychedelics, they really allow you to experience on a much deeper, bare sensate level the truth behind the things we do, and the things we work towards in meditation. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Meditating on for example, LSD is a laughable joke, you are fooling yourself if you think you an properly maintain your practice, but it really seems to allow one to experience persay the fruits of his practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;just my own humble two cents.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;peace and love!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;sohil</description> <pubDate>Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:55:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4561648</guid> <dc:creator>sohil shrenik nanavati</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-12T02:55:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556961</link> <description>I do this without labels. It&amp;#039;s great for walking, doing relatively mundane tasks etc. In fact, i have my wife doing this when she walks our dog in the evening as her only meditation practice and she loves it &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can also cycle through touch, sight, sound which adds a little structure to the practice. I&amp;#039;ve found it really helpful.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2013 07:18:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556961</guid> <dc:creator>Bagpuss The Gnome</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-10T07:18:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556766</link> <description>No need to adopt a more complete vocabulary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The point with the focus out stuff, I think, is to get you more in touch with your 1st person sensory perception of reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is important because all other stuff is a subset of your 1st person sensory perception of reality. I don&amp;#039;t know if it will help with the fast noting nana&amp;#039;s etc.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2013 04:45:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556766</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-10T04:45:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Technology of enlightenment - isn't there already an A+P</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556053</link> <description>HI all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess the main argument being presented here is: Why use a risky method when a safe and assured method (vipassana) is available? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But in my view there a few problems with this position: Firstly, vipassana is not really an assured method (outcomes are highly variable and seem to be based on some kind of innate talent); Secondly, vipassana is now not thought to be entirely safe, hence the screening protocols for mental health disorders at retreat centers; FInally, the dangers of psychedelics have been well researched for fifty years, so no need to rely on anecdotes such as &amp;#034;this guy thought he could fly and jumped out the window&amp;#034;. Yes there are dangers but they can apparently be minimized through screening, set and setting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The other argument is that vipassana insight is &amp;#039;real&amp;#039; but LSD insight is &amp;#039;fake&amp;#039;. I would need to hear more specifics on that one - at the moment it sounds a lot like dogma. I don&amp;#039;t think you can distinguish between a real and a fake insight purely based on how the insight was arrived at (like saying that Vancouver is a different place if you fly there versus take the ferry). Surely there has to be something about the insight itself which is different if we&amp;#039;re going to make claims about difference.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree with the original poster that it&amp;#039;s time for a different type of conversation about psychedelics within pragmatic dharma. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks, Paul</description> <pubDate>Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:15:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4556053</guid> <dc:creator>Paul Anthony</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-09T16:15:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Focus Out in Daily Life?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4555765</link> <description>I just wondered if any of you guys had any experience of just using Shinzen&amp;#039;s Focus Out (noting Touch, Sight, Sound) at every moment (you remember to do so) in daily life. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Would there be a better, more &amp;#039;complete&amp;#039; noting vocabulary to adopt? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you think it would be possible to make progress along the paths doing this relentlessly for like 5-6 hours a day? Every time you get up from your desk in an undemanding job? And not even doing any sitting in the dark or coming close to perceiving the subtle impermanence of vibrations at 100 mph etc?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 09 Aug 2013 13:46:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=4555765</guid> <dc:creator>Robin Woods</dc:creator> <dc:date>2013-08-09T13:46:58Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 