<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_thread?p_l_id=&amp;threadId=5302127</link> <description>How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 01:37:21 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T01:37:21Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544781</link> <description>I really do hope you continue with practice and share whatever you experience with us br All the best</description> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2014 09:06:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544781</guid> <dc:creator>ftw</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-12T09:06:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544659</link> <description>hi wtf br br Gave up practice Or the journal br br I started working with a teacher from a different tradition to pragmatic dharma but got thrown off course recently with some life events but I am trying to get back on track which I guess is part of the reason I have been posting here recently</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2014 22:58:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544659</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-11T22:58:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544622</link> <description>So hows practice going on sawfoot br i was really looking forward to this journal Gave up</description> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2014 21:18:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5544622</guid> <dc:creator>ftw</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-06-11T21:18:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5371134</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content morning sit 0 minutes Went on dharmaoverground and replied to several posts br had insight that I should probably stop spending so much time on dharmaoverground br br repeat after me br br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE div div br br LOL Right there with you man A good chunk of my free time is spent by lurking around this board and some other dharma websites and just filling my brain with mostly useless information Then I wonder why I haven 039 t made substantial progress with meditation img alt emoticon src http www dharmaoverground org dho theme images emoticons laugh gif</description> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:06:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5371134</guid> <dc:creator>Jake WM</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-02T12:06:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5370807</link> <description>morning sit 0 minutes Went on dharmaoverground and replied to several posts br had insight that I should probably stop spending so much time on dharmaoverground br br repeat after me br br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE br GOING ON DHARMAOVERGROUND IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICE</description> <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2014 09:23:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5370807</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-02T09:23:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5367496</link> <description>Based on this thread I am reminded that the body is important in 034 Psycho energetic Enlightenment 034 br http www dharmaoverground org web guest discussion message_boards message 5201846 br br So I am going to try doing some bodywork as part of integrated meditation practice br br Yesterday did some breathing chest opening Lowen type exercises and couldn 039 t do for long Felt like a shock to the system and brought some negative emotional states and had to engage parasympathetic nervous system to calm down Brought back a lot of memories of A amp P but not in a good way br br did a bit of 034 charging 034 and 034 grounding 034 before sit these are Lowian terms Have the theory that 034 unblocking 034 bodywork should encourage 034 energy 034 which should make jhana states more accessible So for example my A amp P involved a radical amount of unblocking in short space of time which was very destablishing but it was associated with increased jhana ability 034 flowing energy 034 br 20 minutes today again didn 039 t go in with clear intentions and therefore had a muddled practice Most consistent was the intention to experience or non verbally note bodily sensations and figure which parts of the body were present and which were absent Noticed a lack of feeling around shoulders neck and jaw</description> <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2014 08:49:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5367496</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-04-01T08:49:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Throwing out the maps</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5365391</link> <description>oh right I thought that might be the explanation though I didn 039 t recall anything contentious br br Yes 034 The Problem 034 br br 034 It is the task of the therapist to show the patient other ways than that of his psychological dead end and to show him that even if he would reach his goal at that moment he would see that it is a miscalculated goal 034 From a translation of 034 The Dream as the Key of Character 034 Der Traum als Schlussel des Characters a lecture by Dr Franz Plewa presented February 27th 1939 br br Barry Magid has a nice discussion of a version of this which he calls our 034 secret practice 034 in 034 Ending the Pursuit of Happiness 034 A pretty good book title I think</description> <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:16:38 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5365391</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-31T22:16:38Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Throwing out the maps</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5365324</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content There is some kind of weird forum voodoo going on br br I checked the other day and read John 039 s post in reply to this thread and yet when I go back now it has vanished though it says on the main page that the last poster was John br br I sort of remember what it said You talked about your version of the 4 noble truths I prefer the translation as 034 4 truths for noble ones 034 that David Brazier uses But yeah put like that it all seems pretty simple and pretty mundane really But no great newsflash but I becoming solidified in my view that spirituality like religion is a bit of con I think it 034 works 034 but these days the myths of eternal salvation discovering the 034 Ulimate Truths 034 or an end to endless rebirths don 039 t really cut it And it comes down to that choice to be happy Sometimes when I have moments of clarity or 034 happiness 034 I think actually this is quite easy and straightforward why don 039 t I do this all the time But then I forget And so a religious spiritual practice is really a way of remembering remembering there is a choice a choice in the present for present conditions and a choice in the present for future conditions div div br br Sorry not forum voodoo just me I posted a message reproduced below from email archive and a short while later decided to delete it because I thought it might come across as frivolous or insulting which wasn 039 t the intent but could be the effect for someone who doesn 039 t know me well br br There is one element of forum voodoo in that even when you delete a recent post you 039 re still listed as the most recent poster in the thread until someone else contributes br br Anyway here it is again for referential integrity so to speak br br br br div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br The other reason why I get bothered by the stages of insight in particular the big 034 E 034 is the promise of the right condition for happiness without conditions Conditionality of happiness is deeply entrenched culturally If only I got a girlfriend that job that promotion the retirement then finally I would be happy And the pragmatic dharma positioning of 034 E 034 can turn out to be a particularly insidious manifestation of that IMHO And despite being aware of this I have still found myself getting sucked up into the snare and that bothers me in the same way that knowing that a better job etc isn 039 t going to deliver my happiness and yet I can 039 t help shake my conditioning that it will br div div br br It 039 s not an easy one to shake cos it might not be just conditioning The fantasy of a radical life redeeming transformation somewhere in the future can be a neurotic 039 s refuge a 034 fictional final goal 034 in Adler 039 s terms and it has a very powerful and enduring appeal br br div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Anyhows I should stop worrying about it br div div br br You sure br br div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br The point is that I should look for motivation not in promise of future reward but from recognition that increasing awareness of 034 non duality 034 has a positive impact on my life br div div br br Speaking of which I like the possibility of taking a really pragmatic approach to 034 right view 034 i e approaching all aspects of practice in terms of the four noble truths which aren 039 t really true and therefore need to be customised br br Take your pick Mine 039 s as follows br br 1 By default there is psychological and emotional affliction br 2 There are ways of being and behaving that perpetuate and exacerbate these afflictions br 3 They can come to an end preferably without having to do away with 034 birth 034 034 aging 034 034 death 034 and the whole universe br 4 There are ways of being and behaving that don 039 t perpetuate or exacerbate affliction Choose them</description> <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:30:03 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5365324</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-31T21:30:03Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Throwing out the maps</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5364882</link> <description>There is some kind of weird forum voodoo going on br br I checked the other day and read John 039 s post in reply to this thread and yet when I go back now it has vanished though it says on the main page that the last poster was John br br I sort of remember what it said You talked about your version of the 4 noble truths I prefer the translation as 034 4 truths for noble ones 034 that David Brazier uses But yeah put like that it all seems pretty simple and pretty mundane really But no great newsflash but I becoming solidified in my view that spirituality like religion is a bit of con I think it 034 works 034 but these days the myths of eternal salvation discovering the 034 Ulimate Truths 034 or an end to endless rebirths don 039 t really cut it And it comes down to that choice to be happy Sometimes when I have moments of clarity or 034 happiness 034 I think actually this is quite easy and straightforward why don 039 t I do this all the time But then I forget And so a religious spiritual practice is really a way of remembering remembering there is a choice a choice in the present for present conditions and a choice in the present for future conditions</description> <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:34:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5364882</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-31T19:34:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360142</link> <description>In the last week 30 40 minute daily sits trying some more formless sitting I was getting the feeling with more formless sitting of how easy is it get into a reasonably calm and relaxed state where it feels like you are 034 meditating 034 but layers of undercurrent of thinking and stances which means you aren 039 t really getting anywhere br br Today sat with local soto zen group br First sit 30 mins getting struck with instructions and trying to do too many things at once br Second and third sits of 20 minutes each Decided to try and stick with proper soto zen instructions and sat with eyes open and with focus on not getting involved in thoughts and to just sit and return to 034 embodied presence 034 sitting feeling the body hearing my breathing the birds my awareness of the room and others And for each sit alternated between this presence and getting lost in thought and losing my awareness of presence and returning to the presence again and again Reminded myself that this is what zazen is all about just presence and returning to presence Falling down and getting back up again br As I become mindful of when I had got lost I started remembering that sensation of losing or softening When I have got good at concentration in the past it feels like I have been able to really hit this spot the transition where I lose it And I remembering talking about this before on another thread somewhere couldn t find it But from what I can recall we talked about how the transition was preceded by a moment of tension And what I have found before is that there is a way of riding that tension and following it through to a release which can leads to something like mini bliss So I reminding myself to keep on the look out for this transition e g setting up the mindfulness guardian br br Couldn 039 t find thread but found some old notes about this br br 034 but at times where I got into jhana land what happened is that the transition from the end of the out breath to the in breath When I try to catch those moments where I tend break into proliferation thought I feel a slipping away a tension lightly felt and a drifting away whereas that drifting away would normally slip into a new thought if I catch the moment when that happens and float along with into it then I then seem to slip into a fast track to access concentration jhana This I also associate with a release of tension in the eyes a small feeling of relaxation or mini bliss at times which when I analysed before seems to be due to eye blink muscle response with eyelids shut 034 br br 034 tried to find point where I got distracted detected something of a movement based on something I read on the DhO tried to shift my attention to the tension that preceded the movement which had limited success with br also suggestion on DhO that proliferation was preceded by a movement in the belly with a downward movement with slothfullness and upwards movement with agitation proliferations Instead or succumbing to the release of the tension try to stay with it 034 br br EDIT br br It was bugging me not be able to find it so I found it br br http www dharmaoverground org web guest discussion message_boards message 5006564 br br div class quote title Adam div div class quote div class quote content div class quote div class quote content So funnily enough I was meditating earlier and I was trying to catch how distractions arose and I what I perceived to be happening on several occasions was a gap where awareness faded then there was this moment of decision where the mind 034 decided 034 to move in a certain direction which I supposed was an instance of grasping so an instance of a fabrication of experience in a certain way an imposition or ordering towards something br br Now Jake talks about seeing such things in real time which I thought was the point i e of vipassana but you talk about locking down tightening and shutting down such processes I thought just seeing was enough And I don 039 t quite understand what you mean by such terms as 034 tightening 034 div div br br I have been investigating similar phenomena what I have found is that there is a moment of tension felt as bodily affect which can be described as an 034 upward movement 034 in the gut just before restless proliferation or 034 downward movement 034 in the gut just before sleepy proliferation The movement grows in intensity and is relaxed when you enter into proliferation and by tolerating not being overwhelmed by the intensifying movement and just being dispassionately aware of it you can avoid entering into proliferation br br I would say that it is important not only to know about this but to try and isolate it more and more via not accepting its invitation to enter into proliferation What starts to happen is that the affective trigger for proliferation stabilizes due to repeated instances of not accepting its invitation and then one can incline one 039 s mind such that it relaxes entirely and suddenly it takes no effort to 034 stay present 034 The way I have found to relax it is to pay attention to the aspect of it that is already fading and also to shift attention down below the navel to the spot where it seems to fade into When that trigger for proliferation fades then there is the experience of body moving on its own if you look at your hands they don 039 t seem to be 034 yours 034 there is just 034 in reference to the seen there is only the seen 034 with no sense of 034 I am 034 br br Just seeing this and not trying to isolate and relax may be enough for certain attainments but in my view being a slave to this process is inherently dissatisfactory no matter how you observe it as this is the process of becoming No matter how clearly you can see it it still has an influence on your behavior It seems to me that every time this process occurs while I am interacting with someone they subconsciously sense it and it creates a subtle 034 power dynamic 034 between me and them Also it is obnoxious to be constantly pulled into proliferation div div</description> <pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:14:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360142</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-29T23:14:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Throwing out the maps</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360138</link> <description>034 thoughts for the day 034 br br I am increasingly coming round to the view that I should throw the pragmatic dharma maps out the window for two main reasons One is that I always have been sceptical about them and that manifest in resistance rather than acceptance which probably does more harm than good I lack experience to be much of an expert but I have plenty of experiences which have fitted the maps Yet much of these I could probably explain away confirmation bias and other cognitive distortions Overall I think the maps are capturing something useful and potentially important yet I see a tendency in pragmatic dharma circles to look for explanations where the maps are no longer just descriptions but linked to causal explanations So for just one example the idea that you reach a 034 cutting edge 034 in meditation for a stage of insight which then permeates your life outside meditation For a lot of phenomena I have been mystified on what kind of explanation could account for such experiences e g stream entry and resulting shifts And a lot of that confusion would be allayed if reasserted my primary scepticism i e if it sounds like its nonsensical it probably is roughly speaking approximately nonsense with some interesting nugget of truth br br The other reason why I get bothered by the stages of insight in particular the big 034 E 034 is the promise of the right condition for happiness without conditions Conditionality of happiness is deeply entrenched culturally If only I got a girlfriend that job that promotion the retirement then finally I would be happy And the pragmatic dharma positioning of 034 E 034 can turn out to be a particularly insidious manifestation of that IMHO And despite being aware of this I have still found myself getting sucked up into the snare and that bothers me in the same way that knowing that a better job etc isn 039 t going to deliver my happiness and yet I can 039 t help shake my conditioning that it will br br Anyhows I should stop worrying about it The point is that I should look for motivation not in promise of future reward but from recognition that increasing awareness of 034 non duality 034 has a positive impact on my life</description> <pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2014 23:05:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360138</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-29T23:05:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360123</link> <description>div class quote title John Wilde div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br And emotionally emotions can contain contradictory elements each other e g awe or the same emotion in its physical manifestation can be interpreted in different ways with different results br div div br br Have you ever closely contemplated the difference between afflictive emotions and transcendent ones br br Some emotions just hurt Feelings of anger hurt arising from rejection grief etc they just hurt But feelings like love beauty compassion and bitter sweet melancholy feelings they hurt too but they don 039 t at the same time They hurt but they 039 re not em afflictive em emotions they 039 re transcendent ones br br Some people don 039 t get this I can only assume they don 039 t have these feelings But if you do it can be really interesting to contemplate what exactly is that afflictive element in and of itself div div br br No not closely or recently Just speculating based on memory it feels like the non transcendental ones involve a retraction of the self from the world whereas the transcendent ones involve a movement outward to the world but then a flip flopping where the self and world meet But that doesn 039 t say anything about raw feel I will try having a look out for this Difficult actually because my emotional life is often one where such emotions get shunted from view and its almost like I don 039 t have enough raw materials to work from I know in some Tibetan practices they deliberately induce negative emotions in controlled settings as a way to work with them</description> <pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:42:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5360123</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-29T22:42:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5355136</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br And emotionally emotions can contain contradictory elements each other e g awe or the same emotion in its physical manifestation can be interpreted in different ways with different results br div div br br Have you ever closely contemplated the difference between afflictive emotions and transcendent ones br br Some emotions just hurt Feelings of anger hurt arising from rejection grief etc they just hurt But feelings like love beauty compassion and bitter sweet melancholy feelings they hurt too but they don 039 t at the same time They hurt but they 039 re not em afflictive em emotions they 039 re transcendent ones br br Some people don 039 t get this I can only assume they don 039 t have these feelings But if you do it can be really interesting to contemplate what exactly is that afflictive element in and of itself</description> <pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2014 23:00:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5355136</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-27T23:00:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5350295</link> <description>div class quote title Jake div div class quote div class quote content Cool that makes a ton of sense Personally I 039 ve always been a bad 039 believer 039 in life in general too skeptical except that when i was younger and even more hot headed I believed pretty strongly in my skepticism However I 039 ve always been a good pragmatist and enjoyed 039 make believe 039 ever since childhood so br br Hey have you ever read James Austin 039 s 034 Zen and the Brain 034 If not I think you might like it He 039 s a pretty good neuroscientist from what I can tell and has an interesting method in the book basically he takes some interesting experiences both of the concentrative and awakening variety if I recall correctly and then does informed speculation about brain mechanisms that could be implicated in the various experiences Pretty fascinating stuff br br A lot of the newer brain meditation crossover stuff I am familiar with looks more at neuroplasticity and possible long term results in brain structure and function from regular practice br br For some reason my gmail doesn 039 t work at work anymore as of the past few days so i will get back to you this evening when I return home thanks for the note img alt emoticon src http www dharmaoverground org dho theme images emoticons happy gif div div br br Yep I know Zen and the brain and the other two There isn 039 t much else like it which makes me appreciate them but also find them pretty frustrating being hard to read and taken anything from for me Lots of nuggets but perhaps he needed a better editor br br The neuroplasticity angle is important and interesting but not really what excites me which if I had a put a finger on is to consider what Buddhism as a set of practices embedded in a religion might look like if it was invented now br br div class quote title John Wilde div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of 034 emptiness 034 or aliveness or God or whatever if we strip away what obscures it is intrinsically good and amazing That our enlightened state is our natural state I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this 034 naturalness 034 And then so what We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters I don 039 t think it tells that the 034 universe is love 034 and so on But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life a means to an end div div br br That there 039 s something intrinsically good and amazing underneath all the suffering and strife that exists in minds and hearts is something that makes complete sense to me I know it It was the initial inspiration for all this and it 039 s the reason why true cynicism will never be an option here br br And although I get your point about the paradox of calling something a 034 natural state 034 when nobody 039 s in it and people work years to attain it it still seems spot on to me because it 039 s what 039 s left when all the crap is gone and it 039 s clear that the crap is not intrinsic br br What exactly this is in anyone 039 s language or in any tradition I 039 ve given up caring There are aspects of so many teachings that point in that general direction but also veer off into stuff that doesn 039 t fit my experiences or aims at all and the same goes for actual freedom So be it Nowadays I 039 m looking at practice not as a means to a specific end but as a way of making all the br crap increasingly transparent div div br br Probably this is what religious faith really comes down to Just faith in this And probably a key 034 issue 034 for me is my lack of faith in it My skeptical angle on it is that being awareness is just pretty awesome though I can 039 t really go as far as saying anything is intrinsically anything Not a very grand vision though I admit but intuitively I am being pulled in this direction I guess you could call this 034 awakening 034 br br If you take the naturalist perspective which I do then I think you do get an answer to what 034 exactly this is 034 It might not satisfy everyone as an explanation but the direction it leads you to is inexorable the experience of being a brain that evolved in a meaningless universe This makes this all both utterly mysterious yet at the same time unmysterious Still doesn 039 t really solve any problems about being alive though</description> <pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:39:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5350295</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-25T21:39:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5349348</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of 034 emptiness 034 or aliveness or God or whatever if we strip away what obscures it is intrinsically good and amazing That our enlightened state is our natural state I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this 034 naturalness 034 And then so what We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters I don 039 t think it tells that the 034 universe is love 034 and so on But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life a means to an end div div br br That there 039 s something intrinsically good and amazing underneath all the suffering and strife that exists in minds and hearts is something that makes complete sense to me I know it It was the initial inspiration for all this and it 039 s the reason why true cynicism will never be an option here br br And although I get your point about the paradox of calling something a 034 natural state 034 when nobody 039 s in it and people work years to attain it it still seems spot on to me because it 039 s what 039 s left when all the crap is gone and it 039 s clear that the crap is not intrinsic br br What exactly this is in anyone 039 s language or in any tradition I 039 ve given up caring There are aspects of so many teachings that point in that general direction but also veer off into stuff that doesn 039 t fit my experiences or aims at all and the same goes for actual freedom So be it Nowadays I 039 m looking at practice not as a means to a specific end but as a way of making all the crap increasingly transparent</description> <pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:26:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5349348</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-25T19:26:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5349103</link> <description>Cool that makes a ton of sense Personally I 039 ve always been a bad 039 believer 039 in life in general too skeptical except that when i was younger and even more hot headed I believed pretty strongly in my skepticism However I 039 ve always been a good pragmatist and enjoyed 039 make believe 039 ever since childhood so br br Hey have you ever read James Austin 039 s 034 Zen and the Brain 034 If not I think you might like it He 039 s a pretty good neuroscientist from what I can tell and has an interesting method in the book basically he takes some interesting experiences both of the concentrative and awakening variety if I recall correctly and then does informed speculation about brain mechanisms that could be implicated in the various experiences Pretty fascinating stuff br br A lot of the newer brain meditation crossover stuff I am familiar with looks more at neuroplasticity and possible long term results in brain structure and function from regular practice br br For some reason my gmail doesn 039 t work at work anymore as of the past few days so i will get back to you this evening when I return home thanks for the note img alt emoticon src http www dharmaoverground org dho theme images emoticons happy gif</description> <pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:00:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5349103</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-25T17:00:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5345808</link> <description>div class quote title Jake div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br In a pragmatic sense these different frameworks have different utilities and I happen to think the neuroscience perspective is a pretty good one A perspective that I am probably too attached to and one that is possibly more of a hindrance than a help on a spiritual path But really exploring the relevance of that framework to spirituality is of great interest to me div div br br I think it 039 s potentially really useful too but in very early stages The advantage of being able to take on pragmatically a more traditional framework is that it 039 s an operating system for those experiences that 039 s out of the beta testing stage so to speak Or maybe more precisely the traditional frameworks are comprehensive in that they are likely to cover a broad spectrum of experiences and the cause and effect within experience of how these various states tend to arise and the side effects etc that may or may not come with them The neuroscience perspective is as yet pretty rough and incomplete from what I can tell but still is full of fascinating and pragmatically relevant nuggets div div br br Yeah all true I am just curious to see how far those nuggets can go br br So an important point for me is to remember that Buddhism is a practice and probably the 034 Buddha 034 would agree and not a belief system So I don 039 t have to believe in anything to practice as a Buddhist or pragmatic dharmist whatever other than faith that the practice will have positive effects for me and the world br br btw sent you a message And you too Zendo if you are reading this</description> <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:39:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5345808</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-24T22:39:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5344847</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br In a pragmatic sense these different frameworks have different utilities and I happen to think the neuroscience perspective is a pretty good one A perspective that I am probably too attached to and one that is possibly more of a hindrance than a help on a spiritual path But really exploring the relevance of that framework to spirituality is of great interest to me div div br br I think it 039 s potentially really useful too but in very early stages The advantage of being able to take on pragmatically a more traditional framework is that it 039 s an operating system for those experiences that 039 s out of the beta testing stage so to speak Or maybe more precisely the traditional frameworks are comprehensive in that they are likely to cover a broad spectrum of experiences and the cause and effect within experience of how these various states tend to arise and the side effects etc that may or may not come with them The neuroscience perspective is as yet pretty rough and incomplete from what I can tell but still is full of fascinating and pragmatically relevant nuggets</description> <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:56:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5344847</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-24T14:56:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5342552</link> <description>2014 3 23 09 11 br 40 minutes morning sit br just tried to do anapasanti Time passed quickly though buttocks starting to get annoying towards end Got lots in quite a lot of thought trains especially later on Made it to 10 at one point a weak 10 and counted back down br another old trick to remember Need to make the breath the most interesting thing in the world And making it as pleasurable as possible really helps with that br br 2014 3 24 08 57 br 40 minute morning sit br hard to stick with anapasanti Did get a greater sense of stillness deepening and relaxation as sit went on but still a lot of conceptual thought trains And need to be wary of tricks of the minds Towards end decided that anapasanti wasn 039 t really working and I should bathe in the nice sukkha filled state I was in and try deepening it through letting go but my practice goal was breath counting with intent Still feeling this tension in wanting to explore open awareness at the same time as thinking I need a more disciplined stable and still mind which is the point of breath counting</description> <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:37:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5342552</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-24T09:37:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5342548</link> <description>quote D Z Dhru Val div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of 034 emptiness 034 or aliveness or God or whatever if we strip away what obscures it is intrinsically good and amazing That our enlightened state is our natural state I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this 034 naturalness 034 And then so what We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters I don 039 t think it tells that the 034 universe is love 034 and so on But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life a means to an end div div br br That is an OK way of looking at it Just some thoughts br br The truth that we talking about in meditation spirituality is more closely related to philosophical truth than to the empirical truths of science and technology br br Scientific knowledge is a posteriori It is made possible by experience and reasoning br br The bar for ultimate truth in spirituality is higher From this perspective reasoning is just an experience And the nature of conscious experience itself has to be considered We don 039 t experience the neurotransmitters in our brains We experience bliss We experience despair br br Neuroscience is cool but isn 039 t directly relevant to spiritual practice br br Ideas about the natural state don 039 t refer to a sort of default evolutionary state of mind But rather the most uncontrived mental state possible br br The natural state doesn 039 t have any characteristics of its own The positive characteristics are associated with the discernment of the 039 natural state 039 br br Attachment and craving are possible because we associate our experience of reality as having some inherently existing characteristics Discerning that all experience is ultimately void of essence means that craving and aversion are dropped At least to the extent that you can maintain discernment br br Doesn 039 t mean that you wont have preferences on how to live life or how much sugar you want in your coffee Or that science will somehow stop working br br Thanks for offering your thoughts D Z I think I disagree in a number of ways but it is useful to have a different way of seeing things br I agree that scientific truth and experience dependent 034 truth 034 are different but I see experience as beyond notions of truth and false which partly why I hate that term 034 ultimate truth 034 And I agree that we should see science and spirituality as different kinds of enterprises with spirituality akin to the old school notion of philosophy as addressing the question of 034 ought 034 rather that 034 is 034 br br My point about the naturalness of the 034 natural state 034 still applies to an 034 uncontrived mental state 034 as if you have to spend 10 years on a retreat in a cave in the Himalayas to achieve it then it seems pretty contrived to me And I disagree about the relevance of neuroscience to spiritual practice though it might depend on how far you would push 034 directly relevant 034 as if neuroscience isn 039 t relevant then would count as being relevant br br We don 039 t experience bliss in the mind we experience an experience which in our conceptual socio linguistic matrix we label as 034 bliss 034 It is a word that is part of our shared conceptual apparatus an apparatus has an important role in shaping experience In another conceptual framework we might call it experience of divine union In another we might describe it as set of neurotransmitters for firing In that framework we can see the experience of craving as a consequence of reward circuitry of the brain and certain states of mind are possible which disrupt that Buddhist psychology gives another way of framing it In a pragmatic sense these different frameworks have different utilities and I happen to think the neuroscience perspective is a pretty good one A perspective that I am probably too attached to and one that is possibly more of a hindrance than a help on a spiritual path But really exploring the relevance of that framework to spirituality is of great interest to me</description> <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:34:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5342548</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-24T09:34:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5338380</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of 034 emptiness 034 or aliveness or God or whatever if we strip away what obscures it is intrinsically good and amazing That our enlightened state is our natural state I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this 034 naturalness 034 And then so what We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters I don 039 t think it tells that the 034 universe is love 034 and so on But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life a means to an end div div br br That is an OK way of looking at it Just some thoughts br br The truth that we talking about in meditation spirituality is more closely related to philosophical truth than to the empirical truths of science and technology br br Scientific knowledge is a posteriori It is made possible by experience and reasoning br br The bar for ultimate truth in spirituality is higher From this perspective reasoning is just an experience And the nature of conscious experience itself has to be considered We don 039 t experience the neurotransmitters in our brains We experience bliss We experience despair br br Neuroscience is cool but isn 039 t directly relevant to spiritual practice br br Ideas about the natural state don 039 t refer to a sort of default evolutionary state of mind But rather the most uncontrived mental state possible br br The natural state doesn 039 t have any characteristics of its own The positive characteristics are associated with the discernment of the 039 natural state 039 br br Attachment and craving are possible because we associate our experience of reality as having some inherently existing characteristics Discerning that all experience is ultimately void of essence means that craving and aversion are dropped At least to the extent that you can maintain discernment br br Doesn 039 t mean that you wont have preferences on how to live life or how much sugar you want in your coffee Or that science will somehow stop working</description> <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2014 04:00:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5338380</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-24T04:00:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5337602</link> <description>div class quote title John Wilde div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title Adam div div class quote div class quote content div class quote div class quote content I haven 039 t given up on the intuition that they 039 re not necessarily mutually exclusive the flawed fragile beautiful and doomed all suffered and celebrated within an overarching framework of perfection and freedom and ultimate okayness div div br br If you see it that way then how would the poignancy sadness beauty and terror be real If you saw that utterly and fully in that way then how would they be there at all div div br br Right if I saw things utterly and fully one way I wouldn 039 t see them both ways But I do see life both those ways not wholly one way or the other br br Part of me lives in a world of human identities and feelings In that world me and the people I have relationships with are real the joys and the sorrows we experience are real but not actual And I don 039 t want to dispel those real but not actual aspects of my life or cease to recognise them in other people 039 s lives But I also know that it 039 s all taking place within something that 039 s utterly untouched by any of this and that what I ultimately am isn 039 t excluded from that in any fundamental sense br br This being okay with the notion that everything is fucked and everything is fine at the same time might in part be a temperamental thing I know some people can 039 t relate to it at all but others can relate perfectly well I remember when I first started perusing the DhO I really couldn 039 t relate well to the goal of ending all suffering that was in vogue at the time it seemed so morbid and bloodless and anti life to me Even actualism which is even more extreme was not really about ending all suffering for me it was about the ultimate happiness the ultimate freedom I guess I just can 039 t relate to life or the universe being inherently fucked for sentient beings without it also being at the same time inherently wonderful Both at once and much more besides depending on how it 039 s seen by whom with what conditioning factors and to what end div div br br David has two nice complementary posts relevant here Life is shit a charnel ground Life is amazing a pure land br br http meaningness wordpress com 2012 08 22 charnel ground br http meaningness wordpress com 2012 09 11 pure land br br My way of relating to it currently is just back to Buddhism 101 non duality emptiness and form actual is emptiness real is form And emotionally emotions can contain contradictory elements each other e g awe or the same emotion in its physical manifestation can be interpreted in different ways with different results br br One thing that has been on my mind is this assumption well expressed in vajrayana but really the cornerstone of all spiritual traditions is that our experience of 034 emptiness 034 or aliveness or God or whatever if we strip away what obscures it is intrinsically good and amazing That our enlightened state is our natural state I struggle to accept all this talk of naturalness when it can take a lifetime of meditation practice to fully experience this 034 naturalness 034 And then so what We can engineer a state of being through messing around with our self referencing circuitry and disrupting our spatial perception and release lots of nice neurotransmitters I don 039 t think it tells that the 034 universe is love 034 and so on But the promise is that this is a suitable ground for living an excellent life a means to an end</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2014 21:00:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5337602</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-23T21:00:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335904</link> <description>div class quote title Adam div div class quote div class quote content div class quote div class quote content I haven 039 t given up on the intuition that they 039 re not necessarily mutually exclusive the flawed fragile beautiful and doomed all suffered and celebrated within an overarching framework of perfection and freedom and ultimate okayness div div br br If you see it that way then how would the poignancy sadness beauty and terror be real If you saw that utterly and fully in that way then how would they be there at all div div br br Right if I saw things utterly and fully one way I wouldn 039 t see them both ways But I do see life both those ways not wholly one way or the other br br Part of me lives in a world of human identities and feelings In that world me and the people I have relationships with are real the joys and the sorrows we experience are real but not actual And I don 039 t want to dispel those real but not actual aspects of my life or cease to recognise them in other people 039 s lives But I also know that it 039 s all taking place within something that 039 s utterly untouched by any of this and that what I ultimately am isn 039 t excluded from that in any fundamental sense br br This being okay with the notion that everything is fucked and everything is fine at the same time might in part be a temperamental thing I know some people can 039 t relate to it at all but others can relate perfectly well I remember when I first started perusing the DhO I really couldn 039 t relate well to the goal of ending all suffering that was in vogue at the time it seemed so morbid and bloodless and anti life to me Even actualism which is even more extreme was not really about ending all suffering for me it was about the ultimate happiness the ultimate freedom I guess I just can 039 t relate to life or the universe being inherently fucked for sentient beings without it also being at the same time inherently wonderful Both at once and much more besides depending on how it 039 s seen by whom with what conditioning factors and to what end</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2014 06:07:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335904</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-23T06:07:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335833</link> <description>div class quote div class quote content I haven 039 t given up on the intuition that they 039 re not necessarily mutually exclusive the flawed fragile beautiful and doomed all suffered and celebrated within an overarching framework of perfection and freedom and ultimate okayness div div br br If you see it that way then how would the poignancy sadness beauty and terror be real If you saw that utterly and fully in that way then how would they be there at all</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2014 05:23:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335833</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-23T05:23:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335579</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content I don 039 t really want to find a basic sense of existence which is free from distress For me to be existentially clear entails distress and lacking distress is to be existentially confused where desires to reduce distress and distort our emotional landscapes ultimately lead to escape from the conditions and facts of our existence And yet life is a wonderful thing It is an opportunity a precious gift This is Buddhism 101 And in everyday life what I am trying to do and reminding myself to do in writing this is to not turn away in escape from that but towards it as a gift embedded in embodied presence in experience div div br br Yes I get that Being a thinking and feeling mortal being means there 039 s going to be poignancy sadness beauty and terror in life so it 039 s a question of whether to embrace it fully with courage compassion and humour or renounce it one way or another and seek an alternative br br There can be existential clarity either way but I 039 d rather find it within this human domain em as well as em beyond it I haven 039 t given up on the intuition that they 039 re not necessarily mutually exclusive the flawed fragile beautiful and doomed all suffered and celebrated within an overarching framework of perfection and freedom and ultimate okayness In fact isn 039 t that already the case somehow</description> <pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2014 02:01:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5335579</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-23T02:01:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5334335</link> <description>div class quote title John Wilde div div class quote div class quote content What I meant by a basic existential clarity experiential clarity is something perfectly ordinary but quite wonderful a way of being right here in this world with all faculties working without obstruction and without any basic existential confusion or distress div div br br So I was talking above about that dual sense of attraction and revulsion bliss and fear br br And in recent days what I have been experiencing when trying to experience the here and now is that dual sense So it a mix of a feeling that is probably best described as anxiety but an anxiety that is full of potentiality and possibility Alternatively you could call it 034 awe 034 in existence br br And partially influenced by some stuff by David Chapman I feel a better sense of what feels like a realistic sense of what I want from practice which is to fully embrace the awe and the prospects for what a greater embrace could hold br br Life is a terrible thing One day I will grow old sick and die As will everyone else I can 039 t fathom the possibility of a state of mind in which that terror would be significantly diminished But I don 039 t really want to find a basic sense of existence which is free from distress For me to be existentially clear entails distress and lacking distress is to be existentially confused where desires to reduce distress and distort our emotional landscapes ultimately lead to escape from the conditions and facts of our existence And yet life is a wonderful thing It is an opportunity a precious gift This is Buddhism 101 And in everyday life what I am trying to do and reminding myself to do in writing this is to not turn away in escape from that but towards it as a gift embedded in embodied presence in experience br br br div class quote div class quote content The student of Tantra should be in a constant state of panic That panic is electric and should be regarded as worthwhile Panic is the source of open heart and open ground Sudden panic creates an enormous sense of fresh air and that quality of openness is exactly what Tantra should create x2014 strong Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche strong div div</description> <pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:58:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5334335</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-22T10:58:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5334328</link> <description>2014 3 22 10 23 br 40 minutes morning sit br did just anapasanti no noting Decided that I should try for a while to get concentration better Typically I do half anapasanti half noting yet I am not putting in the practice time to really get very far with concentration and mind calming as a base for noting And I am aware that when I do anapasanti it effectively is an insight practice as to get good at it in the past involved watching very carefully as a gatekeeper the process of emergence and falling away of thoughts in the mind br just tried to count the breath I do in and out breaths as in breath 1 out breath 1 br most of the time stayed around 1 But this gives me a good starting point from which to improve br started to remember my old tricks Important thing to remember is 034 stay with the physical sensations of the breath 034</description> <pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:56:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5334328</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-22T10:56:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Yanas</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5333101</link> <description>So a couple of thoughts which partly address John 039 s comments about goals above and partly me talking aloud I have been reading more David Chapman and he has been articulating a lot my issues I have had in my experience with Buddhism much better than I could br div class quote div class quote content br 034 Realistically in future most people will approach Western Vajrayana with a Consensus Buddhist background After a few years of vipassana they realize that it s pointing in the wrong direction for them and they want a path of vivid full blooded creative engagement Yet the vipassana they ve done will be excellent preparation x2014 because emptiness is the base for tantra The only difficulty is in deprogramming all their Consensus ideology 034 br http meaningness wordpress com 2012 09 11 pure land div div br br One of the issues I have been dealing with though in a pretty rapid timescale from programming to deprogramming which started in a big way since A amp P has been working on my deprogramming And at times the emotional fall out of that has ended up on these shores br br A compounded issue is yana confusion which has also has caused me confusion problems here Chapman suggests that yanas are primarily about goals rather than methods I have historically been more drawn to Mahayana approaches happiness for all beings than Hinayana happiness for yourself but theoretically rather than emotionally Emotionally and sun consciously there is a 034 removal of suffering 034 draw and could never fully rationally get behind Mahayana despite trying hard And the more I learn about Vajrayana or at least about what a naturalised Vajrayana might look like then the more it articulates what I think I am looking for as a goal and explains why I have been so dissatisfied with other forms e g Zen Theravada br br And with regard to methods br br quote Daniel m Ingram from another thread 034 I would seriously consider starting Theravada getting stream entry and perhaps second path from the Mahasi kids first and then a good sense of what really strong concentration is from the Pau Auk kids and then take that into the Vajrayana and you will already have what you need to visualize really well as well as having established a direct understanding of ultimate bodhichitta which is essential to that path and be able to see that the endless fascination with ritual and the rest of the hyper abundant trappings and politics and personality stuff may at best be skillful means as Attachment to Rites and Rituals will be profoundly lessened if not eliminated and so you will be able to have the wide vibrant acceptance that the Vajrayana offers without its obvious initial traps that so confuse most people who get into it before they were really ready for it Dzogchen and its related perspectives really help with 3rd path territory 034 br br note for a former giant alien space monster he can be quite wise I already do have this perspective roughly speaking but posting about it is just a way of reminding myself and articulating more clearly br br My enthusiasm for 034 enlightenment 034 waxes and wanes partly because I don 039 t believe in 034 it 034 And to get 034 stream entry 034 for the goal of self benefit seems lame in the grand scheme of things and self defeating in setting up the system of belief that there is something wrong that I need to fix from a Mahayana Zen perspective e g I am perfect as I am etc br br But my conscious rationalising is that it is a stepping stone John mentioned the br Mahamudra Meditation Center guide which he is working with I found it ages ago and it looks super cool I can 039 t wait to get the easy access to jhanas and increased concentration that is supposed to come with SE to use as a platform to explore that territory br br Often the idea of stream entry seems nice but then I think everything is just fine as it if it happens then great no big deal I guess this is an equanimity trap I almost have the expectation that it will just happen naturally without trying And this is where MCTB and the Theravada comes in saying get your arse in gear and do the work Discipline perseverance determination etc br br So I am reminded myself that no matter how nice the bright lights of dzogchen and its ilk I need to put in the cushion time and get that concentration strong It is not an earth shattering realisation but I do need to be hit over the head with it regularly which is part of the reason I am here br br p s br I have trying to figure out how 034 actual freedom 034 fits into yanas and I don 039 t think it fits well but it feels like in methods and goals Vajrayana would be the best match</description> <pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2014 18:54:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5333101</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-21T18:54:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5333068</link> <description>2014 3 19 br 20 minutes log not reported just mainly resting in awareness br br 2014 3 20 br no meditation in morning travelling br later in day did some relaxation just resting in what 034 is 034 and had some headgasms not quite jhana but close lacking one pointedness Lot of energy about br br 2014 3 21 09 00 br 40 minute morning sit br started off with a lot of discursive thought br got caught up in what practice to do again which I think relates to lack of clear intentions and having too many simultaneous goals Need to go back to clearly articulating intent at start of sit br after about 25 minutes switched to outloud noting which petered out towards end Had a few moments of 034 quickenings 034 what I call momentary rapid switches or drops in awareness to a heighted sense relatively early on There was a pattern for nicer states early on and distraction irritation later but always wary of reading too much into this br br Note in response to John 039 s comment about method the primary problem is not a particular method though I will try your suggestion thanks but a tendency to switch methods like many times within a minute As discussed in 034 Unlearning meditation 034 often the instructions get in the way Out loud noting is the best method I have found for instructions not getting in the way For concentration I should probably just keep doing what was worked in the past breath counting working on developing the 034 continuous breath 034</description> <pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2014 18:47:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5333068</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-21T18:47:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322977</link> <description>div class quote title Zendo Calrissian div div class quote div class quote content Fear is a very real obstacle I was somewhat surprised that I didn 039 t really have to sit with it much in the DN Went by in minutes Well that was the first time through the DN as I 039 m back and fear has been a very real part of this one The stress of facing things as they are have driven my blood pressure to dangerously high levels Woke up Sunday morning with a BP of 160 100 and a broken blood vessel in my eye The ride gets crazier and crazier div div br br I am not sure how these experiences of DN at different temporal scales e g nanas in a sit across days of heavy practice immediately after A amp P or across months or more are related to each other Quite possibly not in my view but I am still figuring it out being inherently skeptical of everything as I am br br But I can empathise I remember getting day long tension headaches for the first time in my life energy blockages anyone which freaked me out is this permanent They went away as my sleep got back to normal The fall out of A amp P can potentially be very emotionally physically and psychologically destablishing Of course it doesn 039 t have to be that way but it was for me And my way of dealing of it in the end if it is getting too crazy was to take the foot of the accelerator by stopping meditating and just trying with difficulty to indulge as best as possible in everyday life Lots of exercise talking to friends eating ice cream Of course some might say this the worst thing to do and you should power through with even more meditation But hey who doesn 039 t like ice cream</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 16:04:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322977</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-18T16:04:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322829</link> <description>Fear is a very real obstacle I was somewhat surprised that I didn 039 t really have to sit with it much in the DN Went by in minutes Well that was the first time through the DN as I 039 m back and fear has been a very real part of this one The stress of facing things as they are have driven my blood pressure to dangerously high levels Woke up Sunday morning with a BP of 160 100 and a broken blood vessel in my eye The ride gets crazier and crazier</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:32:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322829</guid> <dc:creator>Zendo Calrissian</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-18T14:32:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322485</link> <description>Whatever 034 this 034 is I don 039 t want to 034 not 034 be it br br With the analogy used in 034 Roaring Silence 034 not being 034 this 034 is like free falling without a parachute br br Feeling the slipping of the sense of self is scary and disorientating br br Now I am often perplexed by people on this forum and in Buddhism talking about a solid core sense of self as it doesn 039 t chime with my experience and I always thought it was related to The Buddha 039 s reaction to prevailing religious spiritual beliefs of the day atman For me the solid sense seems most linked to bodily sense Damasio 039 s core self and my experience of being a centre of a visual field So that is seeing myself as temporally ill defined in the midst of time and timelessness but spatially defined through body and vision And as a practice working to realise that I am not spatially defined consciousness is beyond space and spending more times in those states e g such as higher jhanas that I don 039 t have access to is one of things I am striving for though quite what I hope to gain from this I will return to in another post i e the goal of the big 034 E 034 br br But seems pretty fucking weird being an energy field And to echo some of my comments about fear above I have a better appreciation now of how much fear blocks the understanding of not self I realise I don 039 t want to be not self It is terrifying I am aware of all the talk of its liberating properties but still it is such a fundamentally different reference point for life living that it would be massively disorientating I guess the point about paths that it doesn 039 t come all at once and even without paths so you get time to integrate this into your life br br But yeah fear as an obstacle Both in the sense in not wanting to enter the void and the sparkling through of being 034 enlightenment 034 and in the avoidance strategies that block the seeing of it br br But wherever kindness is fear struggles to co exist br br edit br This is over dramatising I probably am not going to get sucked into some black hole of nothingness and go insane br br div class quote div class quote content from Spectrum of Ectasy 034 The discovery of intrinsic space enables us to let go of anxieties This realisation is the dawn of the clear knowledge that and the vicious cycle of intellect are just ways of trying to prevent ourselves from vanishing When we gain some degree of clarity through the practice of shi ne 034 calm abiding 034 we start to view vanishing as an occupational hazard of being We continually vanish and continually reappear We are continually leaping out of sheer emptiness into the present instant 034 div div br br I am starting to get a better understanding intellectually and experientially of what people like Nikolai are always going on about but I should work on getting sufficient insight to put into my own words</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:42:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322485</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-18T09:42:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322466</link> <description>2014 3 18 09 15 br 10 minutes sit Went to bed late so only time for a short time was meant to be 20 minutes but got confused with a 10 minute bell thinking that was the end so my sense of time had quite skewed br Did Exercise 2 from 034 Roaring Silence Discovering the Mind of Dzogchen 034 same book as the working with emotions booked quoted above though they say to do it for 1 2 hours br Just sat and did nothing else than try to block the emergence of thoughts br This blocking really consisted of obliterating so whatever thoughts came up I crunched them down split them into little shards and turned them inside out This felt very 034 dark nighty 034 This whole state of mind feels very fractured A buzzing confusion of 034 dark energy 034 br Was pretty consistent with this the instructions didn 039 t get in the way br I didn 039 t really find much space in the no thinking instead I did get a greater sense of presence and release of energy that seemed to build the sort of energy that feels unfathomable and unlimited br will try to get in a short sit later today</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:34:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5322466</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-18T09:34:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5321176</link> <description>div class quote div class quote content And when we disconnect the technique from the religious context which Daniel and Kenneth even more so have done and you are disavowed of the idea that meditation can give us insights into 034 Ultimate Reality 034 then what you are left with is a self improvement hobby And taking this perspective is often useful as it is at least humbling reminding us that practice is just a practice div div It a practice It is simple It is for me leveling humbling I would say for myself not we or you that what happens in this hobby is insight into what is this massive 034 I am 034 via its own observation investigation and awareness capacities Over time it has become often pleasant like laying in the grass as a kid looking at the sky and then the jolt after thinking 034 What is all of this here me anyway 034 And is also helpful with developing yes more skillful habits But if the only goal was self improvement as you say and here I can 039 t be sure we understand the same idea but I visualize a section in the book store labeled that then I was way better at that a few years back athletic fair to high income progressively technical learning for specific sectors all of which also are insightful into themselves With the hobby of ananpanasati breathing meditation the 034 What is this 039 I am 039 anyways 034 being lulled into a very slow quiet expression of awareness then there is also insight into itself like the other hobbies What is this 034 I am 034 how does it begin how does it arise subtly does it understand its cessation what does it affect what affects it learning about itself does 034 I am 034 vantage change how br br img alt emoticon src http www dharmaoverground org dho theme images emoticons happy gif br br Edit br You br div class quote div class quote content and got stuck with the technique of no technique Still experienced some periods of openness and expansion div div Me I like this Just sitting breathing mind at the breath in the body or at the upper lip nose whatever Simmmmmple friendly br br Repeat voila 034 concentration 034 develops br br Okay best wishes</description> <pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2014 01:55:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5321176</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-18T01:55:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320956</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br The thing about gentle curiosity that while it is an awesome state of mind my deliberate attempts to encourage it in everyday life didn 039 t get very far but I think what stops it being effective is underlying emotional currents that give rise to conditioned behaviours and associated avoidance strategies div div br br I can 039 t overstate how difficult it 039 s been for me to learn this but it 039 s a game changer in some way br br Just to step back from that a sec br br When those underlying emotional currents and the cognitive ripples downstream fall still for a while what 039 s it like Does the universe seem uninteresting or unintelligible Do you have the intellect of a cow Are you unable to think about past or future Are you unresponsive to people and situations Or is it more like ahhh that 039 s better now I can br br What I meant by a basic existential clarity experiential clarity is something perfectly ordinary but quite wonderful a way of being right here in this world with all faculties working without obstruction and without any basic existential confusion or distress For me the goal of all this practice is not about gaining any particular knowledge but about having a better em basis em for knowing and experiencing a better state or condition to operate out of Not specific knowledge but a better kind of knowingness And if the universe remains a fascinating mystery good chance of that that 039 s fine by me I certainly won 039 t be in a worse position to learn about it br br No amount of thinking has ever brought me to that basic existential clarity and non conditional satisfaction But it 039 s always there in the background and there 039 s nothing preventing it being manifest apart from what I 039 m adding to the situation br br So that 039 s what practice is ultimately about for me Seeing how and why that 039 s happening From that perspective there 039 s no better thing to be gently curious about than 034 underlying emotional currents that give rise to conditioned behaviours and associated avoidance strategies 034 which prevent you from being gently curious br br That said I might be projecting too much of my own aims onto you The basic existential clarity above is em my em goal and the 034 E 034 word is basically a placeholder for that I understand that for other people it means something quite different br br br br I 039 m only a beginner when it comes to sitting so take this with a pinch of salt br br You wrote in your practice log br br div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br had been reading a dzogchen book so tried to do instructions of just sitting and 034 letting go 034 br difficult Kept on wanted to introduce methods from my arsenal of techniques and got stuck with the technique of no technique br div div br br If 034 letting go 034 doesn 039 t do it for you as an instruction how about 034 don 039 t get involved 034 It probably amounts to the same thing but it has a different feel and I find it easier to apply Albeit from limited experience I find it builds the ability to just be present for long periods without either pushing anything away or getting entangled</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 22:20:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5320956</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T22:20:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5319711</link> <description>div class quote div class quote content strong Richard zen strong How about meditating as a way to watch the mental talk and watch how it makes you feel and how you feel makes you act in certain ways br br Are there mental habits that you would like to decondition Are there mental habits you want to condition When the mind is busy does it hurt When it 039 s less busy does it hurt less div div br br response to to strong Nikolai strong br br So in meditation at least I can get to the point of being equanimous of the emergence of thinking mind Observing the gaps has been very instructive in formal sitting though right now I am still in a distractible phase but that should settle down br br The thing about gentle curiosity that while it is an awesome state of mind my deliberate attempts to encourage it in everyday life didn 039 t get very far I have for example HAIETMOBA flashing up on monitor on a regular basis and various other bells alarms and whistles to encourage such states of mind but I think what stops it being effective is underlying emotional currents that give rise to conditioned behaviours and associated avoidance strategies br br I think in hindsight the heart of the 034 intellectual problem 034 is trying to use the conceptual mind to figure it all out obviously which ultimately so I have been told is a dead end and the addiction to thinking as a conditioned habit makes it almost avoidable to stop doing it and to be writing posts like this which I know is a substitute for 034 real 034 practice br br But underlying this is the problem of avoidance of life as it is which is a result of my our conditioned habits and strategies I we adopt in managing emotions And when I examine that avoidance closely enough it always seems to be fear as the base though it is often very hard to appreciate that fully as a murky undercurrent of experience br br So that leads me to two quotes from an aro book I have been reading and I resonating with me right now br br Spectrum of Ecstasy Embracing the Five Wisdom Emotions of Vajrayana Buddhism by Khandro Dechen Ngakpa Chogyam br reading this and having also had a peek at some audio talks by Ngakpa Chogyam he has very quickly jumped up into my favourite buddhist teacher list I am starting to see to really appreciate David Chapman 039 s arguments that Tantra is the ideal vehicle for the modern world br br Regarding the practice of trek chod br br div class quote div class quote content So first you familiarise yourself with the view Then second you internalise the view through experience Third you prepare to catch yourself out in the act of conforming to pre set emotional patterns Fourth you stare into the face of the arising emotion In order to do this it is necessary to relinquish intellectual analysis You have to abandon intellect as soon as you recognise the emotional pattern It is enough to recognise the pattern there is no need to dwell on intellectual analysis once that faculty has performed its useful task The intellect is valuable within the sphere of intellect But outside that it becomes increasingly useless Intellect is a valuable tool but unless we learn when to use it and when not to use it the view with which we have familiarised ourselves will just become another unhelpful addition to the giddying whirlpool of our conditioned responses To relinquish analysis allows you to stare directly into the face of an emotion You can accomplish this by focusing on the physical sensation of the emotion as the subject object of meditation Your whole field of attention needs to be immersed in the wordless sensation of the emotion as it manifests in the body If the emotion you are trying to embrace is one of sorrow you will tend to feel this as a very real and uncomfortable sensation just beneath the rib cage This is what is commonly known as heartache But if you are able to surrender the words x2013 the conceptual scaffolding x2013 then the sensation ceases to manifest as pain If you can then maintain the presence of your wordless gaze the emotion becomes a free energy At first thoughts seem to be thrown up by the centrifugal force of the sensation but if these thoughts are allowed to fly past and disappear into space you will discover that it is the cyclic nature of thoughts rather than the sensation itself that is the cause of your dis ease When you can simply be with the sensation of your emotion and experience it fully at the non conceptual level you will notice a dynamic reversal taking place The spinning energy that seemed to be generating rivulets of words and ideas has a vast still centre like the eye of a hurricane From that experience of stillness it is possible to perceive that the obsessive spinning is not caused by the emotional sensation but that it is in fact the cause of it When you realise the empty nature of the sensation of emotional pain the pain dissolves into an ecstatic sensation of presence and awareness div div br br So this Using the intellect up to a point and then letting it go And the practice of looking at bodily responses to emotions is a pretty standard one in various forms of buddhism It seems to make sense And I suppose there is a good reason why 034 Feel the fear and do it anyway 034 is one of best selling self help books ever br br And another quote about strategies we adopt in response to our perception of our enlightened state br div class quote div class quote content br Q You said that duality wants to watch itself becoming enlightened that it wants to get as close to the enlightened state as possible without surrendering its dualistic position Why is this br br Ngak chang Rinpoche Because the enlightened state is terminally seductive br br Khandro Dechen Because we are beginninglessly enlightened so our enlightened nature will continually sparkle through our neurotic condition br br NR That is unavoidable Absolutely unavoidable even though we may be hell bent on maintaining duality When our enlightened nature sparkles through there are three possible responses attraction aversion or indifference It s the attraction aspect of our neurotic state that wants to get close to the enlightened state because we have the idea that it just might be the most fabulous reference point7 in the universe But it s also the enlightened state itself the fact that we could be continually teetering on the edge of self liberation that actually provides the pull or draw The aversion aspect of our neurotic state also wants to get close to enlightenment but it wants to get close in terms of its inherent suicidal tendency With indifference either option seems fraught so we retract and hope that we will not remember the possibility that presented itself It s very tricky stuff It s incredibly sneaky x2013 duality is alarmingly clever Aversion wants to stay alive x2013 which is also why it wants to commit suicide in enlightenment Enlightenment beckons like some tremendous height from which we might fall There s a sense of vertigo We re hypnotised by the interplay of mortality and immortality x2013 of existence and non existence Attraction wants to dissolve into a subtle objectification of the enlightened state in order to achieve immortality Unfortunately as soon as you start to engage with a dualistic approach to non duality the discussion becomes a trifle psychotic KD There s no way out of this paradoxical language problem apart from abandoning the approach of obsessive form orientated intellect Silent sitting meditation is actually the only answer div div br br So part of the reason I am conflicted in beliefs about before after notion of 034 enlightenment 034 is my experience of the sparkling through Particularly in my experience of the A amp P what I found was very intense and simultaneous experience of the attraction great desire and aversion great fear and their culmination And in everyday life particularly when practice is going 034 well 034 i e pleasurable and or spacious sits I feel that bubbling undercurrent of the enlightened state And that bubbling undercurrent has an emotional dimension which leads to the conflicted sense of desire and aversion which leads to semi deliberate indifference br br So I have been trying to experience that more directly recently by relaxing into it and attempting to experience the non conceptual texture of the desire and fear and manifested in my bodily felt sense and that underlying sense of potential for an ecstatic sensation of presence and awareness grows There is vibrancy and alertness br br It also made me realise having been down these roads before and where I am in relation to recent experiences that equanimity is probably about right now or rather peeks into it though I seem to have got there through engaging in content rather than good concentration insight despite all Daniel 039 s advice in MCT img alt emoticon src http www dharmaoverground org dho theme images emoticons cool gif Whether that is true or not dwelling on it and over thinking it as I am want to do is probably best avoided as it becomes just another avoidance strategy</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:34:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5319711</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T16:34:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5318665</link> <description>2014 3 16 br 30 minutes morning sit br lacking sleep and hung over so didn 039 t have too much expectations br first settled into experience without too much willing just trying to let things naturally settle down br rather than breath counting I just tried to connect with pleasurable sensations of the breath passing nostrils This went reasonably well and at one point I had a bit of piti stirring but it dissipated as soon as I got attached to it Eventually realised after a while that I was spinning wheels with cognitive thought trains and switched to aloud noting for rest of sit Most commonly noted 034 sitting touching 034 and at one point got into the flow with a degree of momentary concentration br ended abruptly making I think I should set timer for 40 minutes Seems like a good sign though in that speed of sit passing vs resistance and wanting it to end is a good marker of where I am practice wise Equanimity round the corner A good motivator for longer more sits br br 2014 3 17 br 40 minutes morning sit br had been reading a dzogchen book so tried to do instructions of just sitting and 034 letting go 034 br difficult Kept on wanted to introduce methods from my arsenal of techniques and got stuck with the technique of no technique Still experienced some periods of openness and expansion At one felt a constriction and warmth around cheeks and relatively strong sukkha br in last ten minutes did quite consistent out noting to avoid preponderance of thinking and distractions which were quite visual e g visual fantasy Early one was pleasant and some brief stirring of piti and noted 034 expansion 034 034 pleasure 034 Some noting of 034 indecision 034 Later on discomfort at buttocks become more pronounced and noted 034 irritation 034 and 034 impatience 034 br despite my attraction to dzogchen reaffirms what I ready think which is that I am not quite ready for it as a formal sit and something to explore more post path In the meantime a more jhana approach orientated from a concentration practice is probably the best entry to some of these non dual states I suppose this is one what attracts me to pragmatic dharma in that while I see something like zen or dzogchen as the goal and am attracted to the philosophy and outlook especially wrt to everyday life pragmatic dharma probably is going to get me there quicker</description> <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:32:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5318665</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-17T09:32:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5315287</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind br br br Thanks as always John I super appreciate your comments even though they always get me stuck in fully in the intellectual conceptual processing that I supposed to be ridding myself of Arrghh what an affliction div div br br Perhaps rather than assigning the notion that such intellectual conceptual processing is some thing to get rid of which in my own experience leads to frustration and to quote you 034 arrggh 034 you could approach such reoccurring phenomena with curiosity br Get curious about the little gaps that occur in and of themselves when intellectual conceptual processing drops of its own accord There are gaps all the time Get curious about them not wanting them to occur as the notion of 039 getting rid of 039 may re enforce but simply be curious gently curious Replace the notion that there is something to get rid of with gentle curiosity and the 039 aarggh 039 loses it 039 s trigger support br br It 039 s like the practice of watching for the next thought like a cat at a mouse hole But rather than the next thought you just want to notice momentary gaps or rather the momentary cessation of such phenomena Strip such phenomena of the mental weight of being some 039 thing 039 to get rid of by being curious about such phenomena 039 s in and of itself arising and passing Paying attention like so can trigger lots of insight into the whys of such arisings and passings And knowing the whys experientially in real time seems to lead more so to more cessation rather than arising in my own experience Desiring cessation doesn 039 t br br Rather than impose a desired outcome to any phenomena which gives it more shape name and status weight in my experience see in real time the whys via recognition acceptance and curiosity br br My 2 cents br br Nick</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 19:29:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5315287</guid> <dc:creator>Nikolai .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T19:29:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5315284</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content strong I have an inkling that a better experiential understanding of that gets to the heart of what all this is about strong div div br br How about meditating as a way to watch the mental talk and watch how it makes you feel and how you feel makes you act in certain ways br br Are there mental habits that you would like to decondition Are there mental habits you want to condition When the mind is busy does it hurt When it 039 s less busy does it hurt less What about reading and studying If the mind wanders is it harder to remember the material When the mind is completely focused on the material does it absorb it better br br When self referencing decreased markedly for me it wasn 039 t with a bang but with a whimper The thought habit was useless and in fact impeded motivation I was angry that it ate up so much of my life Self referencing for most people is mostly negative and that extra cortisol does not make one more functional Negative self evaluation doesn 039 t seem to help because it 039 s so concerned with status and self worth that it becomes overly negative and too much pride and puffed up behaviour in the opposite extreme is conceited br br For most people who are intellectual they will find the 7 factors of awakening just what they need The new Analayo book describes it in better detail than I read before Instead of being a thoughtless zombie strong you 039 ll be more choosy of the thought habits you want to create and notice how much happiness is actually missed when unnecessary distraction takes over strong br br The more diligent with mindfulness of mind states I 039 m getting the more examples of useless affect is appearing The actual useful and purposeful thought I experience is probably 5 of the total thoughts I experience Many of the thoughts are deep and interesting but lack purpose and value For example my father got into a huge argument with a guy at work over how airports should be run It may have been an interesting debate but ultimately was a waste of time The stress was useless and none of them run airports or have any major influence so what 039 s the point br br I feel this way about a lot of politics now I have opinions but the identification with views and attachments is useless stress With politics I want to vote and then just see what actually happens as opposed to following every media scrap and tete a tete and then attaching to arguments and getting stressed when I have so little influence So little of these views are a major part of my life and I want to reclaim that mental real estate It 039 s valuable</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 19:24:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5315284</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T19:24:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314918</link> <description>div class quote title John Wilde div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind div div br br What 039 s conceptual adroitness worth without a basic existential clarity br br Unless you think experiential clarity is em inherently em deluded or dependent on delusion it makes sense to strive for that first and then if you 039 re that way inclined be as rigorous as hell in figuring out its nature and significance br br I share a lot of your doubts about so called enlightenment Some people derive experiential clarity from beliefs that are implausible and ridiculous others are utterly and demonstrably deluded in their views but feel entirely clear in their being so there 039 s no direct correspondence between experiential clarity and truth And like you I baulk at experiential clarity at the price of a locked in delusory mode of consciousness and or fantastical world view br br But the idea that experiential existential clarity is em inherently em delusory is itself nuts So thinking of practice in those terms doesn 039 t require a sacrifice of critical thinking but puts it to a better use than trying to suss everything out in advance from a position of basic existential confusion and dissatisfaction br br My way of rationalising having made the same choice div div br br So in my quest for experiential clarity I have trampled over whole spheres of perspective space sufficiently that it has become inconceivable that certain kinds of 034 enlightenments 034 would be really be all that 034 enlightening 034 for me e g altered non dual states of consciousness telling me something new about the universe and my place in it br br This is a case of trying to suss out everything in advance from a state of dissatisfaction Yet it doesn 039 t feel that I am working from a basic existential confusion which is potentially what makes it arrogant and there doesn 039 t have to a correlation between dissatisfaction and confusion And one man 039 s existential confusion is another man 039 s existential clarity I am aware though that shifting this locked in belief might be the problem to be solved or the problem to be 034 not solved 034 br br It also depends on what existential clarity is inherently delusional about not that I fully understand what you mean by the term existential clarity So in terms of being inherently delusional about the world out there the noumena then yes It is a fabrication But then its non sensiscal to say that it is delusionary about states of the brain since I see experience as direct phenomenal access to states of the brain and as such doesn 039 t have a truth value br br Pragmatically though I suppose I am looking for a reduction in obsessive compulsive behaviour but reading it back that sentence feels like my saying what I am supposed to think the goal is br br Practically speaking awakening whether linear or non linear could involve 3 things see also Richard 039 s comment and likely to all be important a reduction in the amount of self evaluative thinking an increased ability in both frequency and speed in seeing that kind of thinking and an increased ability to reduce the impact of that thinking on behaviour That latter one feels like really what I want right now but perhaps this is really just willpower the ability to counteract our tendencies to engage in behaviours that privilege short term over long term reward costs And the happier and more stable we are the better we are at engaging in more sane behaviours br br Thanks as always John I super appreciate your comments even though they always get me stuck in fully in the intellectual conceptual processing that I supposed to be ridding myself of Arrghh what an affliction</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:00:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314918</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T17:00:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314711</link> <description>strong Katy br strong br Yeah as Woody Allen said 80 of the success in life is just showing up So useful reminders thanks br br And when we disconnect the technique from the religious context which Daniel and Kenneth even more so have done and you are disavowed of the idea that meditation can give us insights into 034 Ultimate Reality 034 then what you are left with is a self improvement hobby And taking this perspective is often useful as it is at least humbling reminding us that practice is just a practice br br strong Droll strong br br 034 Not buy into 034 could mean not using embracing and using for myself but you are picking up on my scientific sceptical hat meaning and you are right to say this is missing the point in that the point is that these systems is their pragmatic component On googling I stumbled on a whole world of forums of people discussing these systems and their application to life e g if I am an X displaying behaviour Y and Z is an P displaying behavour T then how do I resolve conflict Still just to add I think the reason that I personally have never not got into it is partly based on the assumption that computational problem of managing social relations is incredibly hard which is why we won 039 t have AI any time soon And most of our knowledge that we employ is developed over a lifetime of social interaction is probably not the kind of knowledge that can be conceptualised and discussed And humans do have a strong need to fit into social identities and find a sense of belonging that comes with that though I often fight against that br br And yep I agree that seeing our smallness and unspecialness in the vastness of the cosmos is humbling and oh so important and really the point of spirituality seeing and managing the relationship between the finite and the infinite that we find ourselves in br br strong Richard strong br br I have this instinctive reaction against the notion of non thinking despite how nice this sometimes sounds because I can see all sorts of arguments as to why such thinking is useful even those self evaluative thoughts I suppose I see the more proximal goal as reducing the power that self evaluative thoughts have in motivating behaviour and their 034 stickiness 034 rather than getting rid of them But then I can also have some appreciation for the clever tricks of the ego in fighting its relinquishment br br 034 thinking pretending to control what 039 s happening 034 is interesting and not at all straightforward as it links to all sort of things about free will consciousness and the mind I have an inkling that a better experiential understanding of that gets to the heart of what all this is about</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:51:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5314711</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T15:51:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5305115</link> <description>Hiya br div class quote div class quote content This may be a misconception or an exaggeration but it does like a lot of progress seems out of control I have the sense that if I went on retreat it wouldn 039 t take that long to become 034 on 034 again but techniques e g self kindness and so on probably wouldn 039 t affect how long it took me for that off switch to flick div div I used to think this and in some ways I still do However I 039 d have to admit that what I do that works is I just show up for the practice and do it gently no conceit no expectation but to train on attention and the probably of dealing with torpor if I 039 m distracted or have just eaten br br I tend to loath hearing advice 034 Try to practice at the same time every day 034 but that can help me organize my life around the practice similar to how I am dedicated to making time for eating When I can 039 t show up at the same time every day then some time every day This is the control I do have in the practice br br Otherwise I feel the 034 out of control 034 part of meditation is like any repetitive hobby some 034 gains 034 just come out of blue I used to play piano a lot I can remember how some days it just impressed me what the body seemed to play best surprisingly and without my deliberation I think this state came to be called 034 flow 034 So I think anapanasati and other techniques has this too we I show up and repeat an effort we I actively develop a skill through effort and rest effort and rest then let one day one moment it does itself something insightful flowy happens pause take break then resume hobby effort and rest effort and rest Anyway br br I like what you said about teacher and personal motivation br br br Okay sow what you want to see grow br</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:33:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5305115</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T07:33:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5304835</link> <description>If you fit this description then you probably match INTP most accurately 034 are an INTP 034 http www wikisocion org en index php title LII br br It 039 s not necessary to 034 buy into 034 something in order to find it useful I just consider MBTI Socionics Enneagram more models to learn from and discard as needed They 039 re pragmatic tools with dubious correspondence to reality if you would like to posit such a thing If you know of or create a useful more rigorous model for classifying personality behavior and subjective experience I 039 m all ears Now one fun result of entertaining classifications of personality is statistics http oddlydevelopedtypes com INTP br br And I 039 ve had similar thoughts along the lines of 034 I don 039 t want to be foolishly stuck in the moment like an animal 034 I 039 ve come to realize humans create a false dichotomy between the human world and the rest of nature There are many unique parts of being human surely but still our existence is little more than that of a graduated animal To humbly realize one 039 s place in the universe as an aggregate of countless universally interconnected processes occurring in the eternal moment allows one to live a more fulfilling human life</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 05:19:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5304835</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T05:19:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5304060</link> <description>div class quote title katy steger div div class quote div class quote content Hi SF br br Nice br br I haven 039 t thought of your comments here ever as 034 trolling 034 Sometimes I have seen them as 034 testy 034 but 034 testy 034 can be related to 034 testing 034 as in 034 how these people react to my provocations may tell me if their so called practice is worth boo 034 br br div class quote div class quote content e anapasanti div div br Yes br br Personally I relate to some of what I call your testiness and a I 039 m glad you 039 re practicing on your own now sans teacher but don 039 t take this comment as against teachers absolutely or even a little there 039 s just a ton of reasons to practice on one 039 s own at some points and b I hope you give anapanasati your sincere interest and self gentleness in developing attention in the breath br br And yes I 039 m going to link Daniel Goleman 039 s breathing buddies link here http www youtube com watch v scqFHGI_nZE br br Anapanasati This is very simple Just attend the breath and the pali 034 sabbakhaya 034 can mean the breath is followed at the nostril area or it can be translated as Ven Bodhi does body wide Chris G 039 s new log new last line about actually thanking the mind that 039 s trying is to me very sound and useful practice br br Good luck div div br br Hi Katy br br Just to say I appreciated your comment on the past lives thread As a student of the DhO I had previously come across that thread where you displayed some 034 testy 034 behaviour br br When I got some recent 034 troll 034 accusations I actually looked up what a href http x3a x2f x2f www x2e urbandictionary x2e com x2f define x2e php x3f term x3d trolling trolling a means And it can mean a lot of things but I had the impression that it can often be used i e against me as a sort of catch all for forum behaviour that is not liked in some way I thought antagonistic was a better description in most cases but perhaps testiness instead It 039 s complicated in that motivation for testiness can be complicated and multi faceted which in means some cases the term trolling does become a complementary description But yes I like testiness br br Re practicing on own vs teacher There is a lot I could say here with lots of pros and cons but one big pro is that motivation aspect Which I guess is what a sangha can help supplant e g this thread br br I know you are a big fan of anapanasati And I suppose I am too as in I have been persuaded interpretations of the sutra as a complete path to liberation and all that jazz br br But here is the thing in terms of 034 technical meditation 034 It doesn 039 t seem to make much difference in what I do technique wise Instead depending on where I am in the stages of insight and other external factors it seems like I am 034 on 034 or 034 off 034 This may be a misconception or an exaggeration but it does like a lot of progress seems out of control I have the sense that if I went on retreat it wouldn 039 t take that long to become 034 on 034 again but techniques e g self kindness and so on probably wouldn 039 t affect how long it took me for that off switch to flick</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 02:41:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5304060</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T02:41:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303956</link> <description>div class quote title Droll Dedekind div div class quote div class quote content div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind div div br br Out of curiosity do you know your MBTI and or socionics and or enneagram type br br In MBTI terms I 039 m an INTP meaning I have a dominant Introverted Thinking function I also have trouble with obsessive conceptualization I suspect you either have dominant or auxiliary Ti or Te div div br br I haven 039 t been properly tested and haven 039 t really bought into it but yes INTP would resonate the most along with Ti br br Have you ever tried the a href http x3a x2f x2f www x2e hsperson x2e com x2f pages x2f test x2e htm Highly Sensitive Person a test I found it quite interesting when I looked at it ages back as I scored pretty darned high I think there is a strong correlation with HSP 039 s and IN TP INTJ 039 s And I expect there is a high correlation between these things and spiritual seekers i e DhOers br br I was sort of thinking about this earlier while in a night club There I was dancing away having lots fun yet at the same time I was engaging in this line of reasoning above quite disconnected from my bodily experience And I was thinking oh the curse of being an INTP or similar And thinking that 034 enlightenment 034 is the cure living in the now in the present being connected to the present rather than separate from it And also thinking how difficult it would be to fix that lifetime of habitual disconnection But then I also noticed how everyone else was drunk And it seems that the point of getting drunk is to reduce that distance so its probably not just a INTP curse Of course when I say curse it is also what makes us uniquely human in my understanding of the nature of animal consciousness And do I really want to live in the present fully like some kind of animal</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 02:07:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303956</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T02:07:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303792</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind div div br br That 039 s normal I have an intellectual bent and it can be difficult sometimes Note 034 strategizing 034 034 analyzing 034 034 rehearsing 034 etc It 039 s the thinking pretending to control what 039 s happening Some of this is perfectly okay when you are doing complex work but it 039 s the habit of self evaluation that needs to be deconditioned br br I like to empty my mind of all thoughts and wait long enough for relief To do this and enjoy the relief will help the brain see the benefit of a clear mind It 039 ll start inclining towards a relaxed mind There will always be some thoughts in it but the clinging complaining about why you dislike something makes the body react and act on the craving aversion When you empty the mind of as many thoughts as possible and feel relief it 039 s easier to put in thoughts you always wanted to develop in it 039 s place to start developing new mental habits of your choosing</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 00:50:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303792</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T00:50:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303783</link> <description>Hi SF br br Nice br br I haven 039 t thought of your comments here ever as 034 trolling 034 Sometimes I have seen them as 034 testy 034 but 034 testy 034 can be related to 034 testing 034 as in 034 how these people react to my provocations may tell me if their so called practice is worth boo 034 br br div class quote div class quote content e anapasanti div div br Yes br br Personally I relate to some of what I call your testiness and a I 039 m glad you 039 re practicing on your own now sans teacher but don 039 t take this comment as against teachers absolutely or even a little there 039 s just a ton of reasons to practice on one 039 s own at some points and b I hope you give anapanasati your sincere interest and self gentleness in developing attention in the breath br br And yes I 039 m going to link Daniel Goleman 039 s breathing buddies link here http www youtube com watch v scqFHGI_nZE br br Anapanasati This is very simple Just attend the breath and the pali 034 sabbakhaya 034 can mean the breath is followed at the nostril area or it can be translated as Ven Bodhi does body wide Chris G 039 s new log new last line about actually thanking the mind that 039 s trying is to me very sound and useful practice br br Good luck</description> <pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2014 00:30:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303783</guid> <dc:creator>katy steger</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-16T00:30:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303724</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind div div br br What 039 s conceptual adroitness worth without a basic existential clarity br br Unless you think experiential clarity is em inherently em deluded or dependent on delusion it makes sense to strive for that first and then if you 039 re that way inclined be as rigorous as hell in figuring out its nature and significance br br I share a lot of your doubts about so called enlightenment Some people derive experiential clarity from beliefs that are implausible and ridiculous others are utterly and demonstrably deluded in their views but feel entirely clear in their being so there 039 s no direct correspondence between experiential clarity and truth And like you I baulk at experiential clarity at the price of a locked in delusory mode of consciousness and or fantastical world view br br But the idea that experiential existential clarity is em inherently em delusory is itself nuts So thinking of practice in those terms doesn 039 t require a sacrifice of critical thinking but puts it to a better use than trying to suss everything out in advance from a position of basic existential confusion and dissatisfaction br br My way of rationalising having made the same choice</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 23:48:02 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5303724</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T23:48:02Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302884</link> <description>div class quote title sawfoot _ div div class quote div class quote content br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind div div br br Out of curiosity do you know your MBTI and or socionics and or enneagram type br br In MBTI terms I 039 m an INTP meaning I have a dominant Introverted Thinking function I also have trouble with obsessive conceptualization I suspect you either have dominant or auxiliary Ti or Te</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 19:26:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302884</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T19:26:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302798</link> <description>Thanks Zendo for the LOL br br And cheers BB Good advice As Daniel keeps on saying this is the method do the experiment I have a pluralist inclination but I agree that focusing on a specific goal and using tried and tested techniques are most likely the best use of my time And I will try to keep that in mind and focus on technical aspects of meditation rather than wallowing in the self improvement crap and ego games That said I am kinda hoping that the superficial issues can work as a consistent wake up call by trying to use that neurotic energy both by doing something constructive with it and for awakening For example being inspired by Trek chod practice br br http aroencyclopaedia org shared text e emotions_ar_eng php br br Here is a nice quote br br div class quote div class quote content The practice of meditation in the context of embracing emotions as the path gives us another option This option is one in which we neither repress express nor dissipate our emotional energy But one in which we let go of the conceptual scaffolding and wordlessly gaze into the physical sensation of the emotion This is what we describe as staring into the face of arising emotions in order to realise their empty nature This is where meditation becomes an essential aspect of our method of discovery The form of meditation we will discuss here comes from the system known as Trek chod which means exploding the horizon of conventional reality Trek chod involves finding the presence of awareness in the dimension of the sensation of the emotion we are experiencing Simply speaking we locate the physical location of the emotion within the body it may be localised or pervasive This is where we feel the emotion as a physical sensation We then allow that sensation to expand and pervade us We become the emotion We cease to be observers of our emotions We stare into the face of the arising emotion with such completeness that all sense of division between experience and experiencer dissolve In this way we open ourselves to glimpses of what we actually are We start to become transparent to ourselves Through this staring the distorted energy of our emotions liberates itself In the language of trek chod it is said of itself x2013 it liberates itself and it enters into its own condition In order to use meditation in this way we need to have developed the experience of letting go of obsessive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process as the crucial reference point on which our sense of being relies In short we need to be able to dwell in our own experiential space without manipulating whatever arises to referential ends We need to experience mind free conceptual activity x2013 yet qualified by the effulgence of pure and total presence br Through the practice of meditation we discover that we can make direct contact with the unconditioned essence of our spectrum of liberated energy We can embrace our emotions and realise the unending vividness of what we are br div div br br Getting rid of my obsessive compulsive attachment to the intellectual conceptual process seems like a tricky one particularly for this mind</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 17:42:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302798</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T17:42:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302466</link> <description>Wow I 039 m actually delighted to hear this I was sort of relating to your troll like behaviour before as I 039 ve had experiences where I 039 ve socialized online in circles where I didn 039 t quite fit in and ended up identifying as the outsider and sort of thrashing about and exacerbating my position That doesn 039 t end well But with this forum and from my perspective it seemed especially tragic as it was almost like you were karmically drawn to awakening but lacked the qualities to exploit the wonderful opportunity that had arisen So this turnaround is great news IMO and starting a practice log sounds like a great idea br br My only advice would be to focus ruthlessly on what is really going to make a difference in the end i e stream entry No matter how tempting it might be to operate at the level of more superficial issues and pursuing multiple strands of self improvement I wrote a diary for years filled with detailed descriptions of that kind of stuff E g 034 I managed to avoid wasting time on the internet for three days in a row but unfortunately I started again today I 039 m such an idiot why I do these things to myself Tomorrow I 039 m going to shoot for four days in a row And start getting up earlier in the morning And exercising more 034 Yada yada yada It all amounted to next to nothing compared to awakening Though having said this I realize there are multiple strands of the 8 fold path to be pursued to attain awakening and before you 039 re getting jhana consistently there could be months if not years where your practice has basically yet to take off and progress could be characterized as embarrassingly slow Even still always be wary of getting mired in superficial issues br br Good luck practice seriously and well And who knows maybe MCTB stream entry really is the monumental achievement the Buddha describes and you 039 re literally saving yourself from millenia of further wandering in samsara From what I 039 ve read of experienced out of body travellers like a href http x3a x2f x2f www x2e amazon x2e co x2e uk x2f Demystifying Out Of Body Experience Practical Exploration x2f dp x2f 0738730793 Luis Minero a and a href http x3a x2f x2f www x2e multidimensionalman x2e com x2f Multidimensional Man x2f Astral_Travel_and_life_after_death x2e html Jurgen Ziewe a their experiences would seem to lend credence to the basic form of Buddhist cosmology Possibly something to read up on in your spare time</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 16:04:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302466</guid> <dc:creator>B B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T16:04:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302366</link> <description>NOT BEING SARCASTIC IN FACT BEING COMPLETELY HONEST MODE ON br This is the greatest thing ever br NOT BEING SARCASTIC IN FACT BEING COMPLETELY HONEST MODE OFF</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 15:16:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302366</guid> <dc:creator>Zendo Calrissian</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T15:16:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Practice log</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302134</link> <description>A meditation report br morning sit 30 minutes at home br Normally I do 40 minutes and thinking about this again reminds me that longer periods would be more productive br br First ten minutes was just settling down relaxing trying to induce some positive states of mind but not in an disciplined or consistent way in other times I might be more disciplined about this Then ten minutes of breath counting i e anapasanti with a focus on anapasanti spot on nostrils which is a practice that has worked well in the past Right now in the dark night concentration is difficult and often I lack the strength of will to keep the counting up though today at least there was a sense that given more time things could have 034 developed 034 Some dreaminess brought on by slightly fantastical mind wandering Then 10 minutes of outloud noting a la Kenneth Folk style Started off mainly rupa but more mind states later on and more distraction later on Some thought trains about 034 judging 034 relating to stuff discussed above Throughout there was a sense of latent energy in a disordered state which I associate with 034 dark nightness 034 in that there was 034 wetness 034 by that I meant the potential to access piti and sukha AKA 034 energy 034 but in the face of disordered and fractured thinking which breaks up the possibility of riding anything very far Still it does give the sense of something round the corner Often when this happens in real time I note 034 anticipation anticipation 034 but right now that anticipation doesn 039 t go anywhere</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 14:30:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302134</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T14:30:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>How Sawfoot Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Enlightenment</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302126</link> <description>So I decided to start a practice log A couple of reasons One is that it gives me an excuse to be attention seeking and have an outlet for shitting and pissing It also means I can have an answer to the 034 do you even meditate have a practice log 034 question which sometimes gets used against me when I piss people off enough Another reason is that despite my best efforts I seem to like this place despite complaining it about all the time If you can 039 t beat em 039 join em 039 And I appreciate a good practice log A recent inspiring one was Adam 039 s which was full of lots of neurotic stuff which I could relate to which made me think hey I could do that br br A further reason is that I stopped working with a meditation teacher recently and since then my practice has taken a nose dive So I figure keeping a log may work to maintain motivation and momentum Practice wise I am in the 034 dark night 034 so they say pre path and my daily practice has dropped off in the last three weeks But now due to the entire internet reading my practice log and the associated pressure and expectation my practice will become super sold again We shall see and see how this log keeping goes If you want to join in please don 039 t hesitate It makes it all a lot more fun and interesting and you might help me to become enlightened quicker br br Note re title I like to use the word 034 enlightenment 034 in scare quotes like just then and see it as a dirty word Yet here I am br br Goals These seem to change on a daily basis Recently they were to reach equanimity and one step up beyond and build up concentration to allow return access to jhana land br br Recently like last few days or longer my goal appears to live life more fully whatever that means So that means living in the face of fear and judgement Perhaps what I am angling for what vajrayana and tantra is all about cf David Chapman 039 s argument that it is the ideal practice for the modern world So this involves not just recognising my bombu nature more fully but accepting it So living more fully means living more boldly being more open to failure So not being ashamed of shame To embrace embarrassment and the foolishness that is my nature And as John Wilde suggested 034 integrate the prick 034 Now one big pay off is how this makes me relate to others The less strongly I judge myself the less strongly I judge others and the more I appreciate them And in my experience this works and is a huge reward But all this is hard as a part of me is crying out not to put up a practice log and I seeing all this as just narcissistic masturbation and a misuse of my energies But then I also feel I should put my money where my mouth is And it feels like confronting that aspect that of me which feels that this is stupid I am stupid and everyone on this forum is stupid goes to the heart of what 034 practice 034 is all about which is in part reducing some of kind of distance between 034 myself 034 and my experience</description> <pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2014 14:26:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5302126</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-03-15T14:26:45Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 