<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Books and Websites</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=11919</link> <description>Here is a place to post comments about books and websites of value.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 01:12:13 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T01:12:13Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: Positive Disintegration &amp; the DN</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606948</link> <description>I can definitely relate to this, in my early teens, coupled with some traumatic life-events (expulsion from my high school, living with relatives apart from my nuclear family, multiple suicide attempts, intense study of Astrology to discover the causes of my shitty-life-events, investigation from school authorities as to the possibility that I was a danger to myself and my fellow students etc) I entered a long, protracted period of intense depression and &amp;#034;existential coasting&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I believe (from my brief reading of the article) that I suffered from his Unilevel Disintegration, after the crises I was mute for two years, I spoke to no one. I was deeply religious and superstitious, I possessed no &amp;#034;activity&amp;#034; (I literally did nothing), I feared that my fellow classmates would spontaneously stab me to death, I was deeply paranoid.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Because of this total absence of &amp;#034;being&amp;#034;, (it was an existential crisis), I, in parts, overcame these problems one by one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First cognitively, then feeling-fed, then existentially in the soul, I experienced several awesome and besorbed altered states of consciousness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As it stands currently, all I do is bhushuku (literally: eat, sleep, shit), I am perfectly and totally happy and content. I&amp;#039;m in college and still working towards my degree, however on academic probation, because I literally (still) do nothing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet I am plagued by literally &lt;strong&gt;zero&lt;/strong&gt; existential problems, moreover my sexuality is now integrated and something I am wonderfully at peace with. All I do is leisure, leisure, leisure. I smoke cigarettes and have non-dual (emptiness) experiences and listen to music.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I&amp;#039;m often amazed by how much I changed in the course of about 6 years, for the first 15 years of my life, literally went through nothing, I am almost amnesiatic about it (I don&amp;#039;t remember much of it). I was only truly alive in the latter quarter of my life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;bhushuku,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;James</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 22:30:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606948</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T22:30:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Positive Disintegration &amp; the DN</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606884</link> <description>This is fantastic! I love psychology, actually, so I&amp;#039;ll never frown at you. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like that this is less standardized than nana&amp;#039;s. I think it&amp;#039;s true that most people who are meditating are looking for relief. To say that everyone follows the same order of emotional events, though, never seemed right to me. This model frames the path in a reactionary and developmental way - which is probably more accurate. I think it&amp;#039;s true in my own experience that I have come up with an ideal personality and am trying to move towards it.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 21:13:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606884</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T21:13:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Positive Disintegration &amp; the DN</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606824</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;gen&amp;#x2e;lib&amp;#x2e;rus&amp;#x2e;ec&amp;#x2f;book&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;md5&amp;#x3d;c27eff0adf55aef995421b6084922879"&gt;Positive Disintegration by Kazimierz Dabrowski&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Positive_Disintegration"&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The &lt;strong&gt;Theory of Positive Disintegration&lt;/strong&gt; (&lt;strong&gt;TPD&lt;/strong&gt;) by &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Kazimierz_D&amp;#x25;C4&amp;#x25;85browski"&gt;Kazimierz Dąbrowski&lt;/a&gt; describes a theory of &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Personality_development"&gt;personality development&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;Unlike mainstream &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Psychology"&gt;psychology&lt;/a&gt;, Dąbrowski&amp;#039;s theoretical framework views psychological tension and &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Anxiety"&gt;anxiety&lt;/a&gt; as necessary for growth. These &amp;#034;disintegrative&amp;#034; processes are therefore seen as &amp;#034;positive,&amp;#034; whereas people who fail to go through positive  disintegration may remain for their entire lives in a state of &amp;#034;primary integration.&amp;#034; Advancing into disintegration and into the higher levels  of development is predicated on having developmental potential, including overexcitabilities and above-average reactions to stimuli. Unlike some other theories of development such as &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Erikson&amp;#x25;27s_stages_of_psychosocial_development"&gt;Erikson&amp;#039;s stages of psychosocial development&lt;/a&gt;, it is not assumed that even a majority of people progress through all levels. TPD is not a theory of stages, and levels do not correlate with  age.&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;Dąbrowski&amp;#039;s theory of personality development emphasized several major features including:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;personality is not a given universal trait, it must be created&amp;#x2014;shaped&amp;#x2014;by the individual to reflect his or her own unique character (personality shaping)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;personality develops as a result of the action of developmental potential (DP) (overexcitability and the autonomous factor), not everyone displays sufficient DP to create a unique personality.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;developmental potential is represented in the population by a &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Normal_distribution"&gt;normal&lt;/a&gt; (bell) curve. Dąbrowski used a multilevel approach to describe the continuum of developmental levels seen in the population.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;developmental potential creates crises characterized by strong anxieties and depressions&amp;#x2014;psychoneurosis&amp;#x2014;that precipitate disintegration&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;for personality to develop, initial integrations based on instinct and socialization must disintegrate&amp;#x2014;a process Dąbrowski called positive disintegration&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;the development of a hierarchy of individual values &amp;#x2014; &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Emotional"&gt;emotional&lt;/a&gt; reactions &amp;#x2014; is a critical component in developing one&amp;#039;s personality and one&amp;#039;s autonomy, thus, in contrast to most psychological theories, emotions play a major role in this approach&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;emotional reactions guide the individual in creating his or her individual personality ideal, an autonomous standard that acts as the goal of individual development&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;the individual must examine his or her essence and subsequently make existential choices that emphasize those aspects of essence that are  higher and &amp;#034;more myself&amp;#034; and inhibit those aspects that are lower or &amp;#034;less myself&amp;#034; based upon his or her own personality ideal&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;li&gt;critical components of individual development include autoeducation and autopsychotherapy&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul style="list-style: disc outside;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I know psychology is somewhat frowned upon &amp;#039;round these parts... but I couldn&amp;#039;t resist. The parallel with the nanas is too compelling. So far, this theory is little known in the mainstream psychological world, but it&amp;#039;s found applications in understanding gifted children. I figure understanding Pragmatic Dharma yogis might be another application. As mentioned &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;3285651"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, PD theory might help the Pragmatic Dharma movement get more mainstream recognition. Its existence might help normalize the &amp;#039;Dark Night&amp;#039; and convince some people that it&amp;#039;s a &amp;#039;positive&amp;#039; experience. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In terms of &amp;#039;developmental potential&amp;#039;, it seems plausible to me that &amp;#039;over-excitable&amp;#039; (cf. &lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Highly_sensitive_person"&gt;highly-sensitive&lt;/a&gt;) people are more likely to reach a breaking point where it&amp;#039;s seen that current structures are inadequate. Or, in insight terms, it seems plausible to me that &amp;#039;over-excitable&amp;#039; people are more likely to notice the true nature of phenomena, and hence are more likely to experience intense A&amp;amp;Ps, and so intense DNs. I&amp;#039;m unsure the extent to which an analogy can be drawn with the progress of insight.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Given their genuine (authentic) prosocial outlook, people achieving higher development also raise the level of their society. Prosocial here is not just support of the existing social order. If the social order is lower and you are adjusted to it, then you also reflect the lower (negative adjustment in Dąbrowski&amp;#039;s terms, a Level I feature). Here, prosocial is a genuine cultivation of social interactions based on higher values. These positions often conflict with the status quo of a lower society (positive maladjustment). In other words, to be maladjusted to a low-level society is a positive feature.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Also, what a relief this is &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/tongue.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope someone finds this useful. Thoughts, questions, comments?</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 20:14:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606824</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T20:14:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606067</link> <description>Hello, Kim, your point is well taken and the natural progression... well, one does at least initially sort through the biographies and theories and practices and then find out where they are, dhukka-wise, select a practice that indicates to them, make a commitment, and mostly have fun doing the practice.   Nirvana  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, my partner saw me -- with my severe dhukka case -- doing my practices and he saw the changes in me and he started doing his own practices, likewise realizing how much fun and profitable it is even for someone in a not so severe dhukka-case.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The whole Maitreya-Buddha-arahants-practicers game was an experiment in a democratic hierarchical loop.... the operative word being &amp;#034;loop&amp;#034;.   Playing within the rules of this set-up one must ensure the success of self and everyone and cannot leave the loop.  Therefore the full truth and practice for nirvana will never be found and Nirvana is nothing but an incomplete carrot held out on a long, long stick.  A beautiful fakery. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;An individual could leave the loop and vanish it from his mind, but the other beings would continue to play that game, awareness practices being limited towards simply becoming a better member of the group, but never leaving.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now probably the game did not start out that way and was much more lighthearted and playful -- but you know how things always get more and more serious as time goes.  Your mileage may vary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One could imagine they are now outside that loop and it is just themself and their own mind with its fixated mishmash of goals and purposes -- that&amp;#039;s all it ever was.  Take someone with you if you can.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  </description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 16:40:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606067</guid> <dc:creator>Colleen Karalee Peltomaa</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T16:40:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606047</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jeremy May:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Ah... &lt;br /&gt;What is for me, is for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;There is nothing we can do.&lt;br /&gt;What is for me, is for you.&lt;br /&gt;Ah...&lt;br /&gt;We just have to face it this time, we&amp;#039;re through.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Breaking up is never easy I know &lt;br /&gt;But I have to go&lt;br /&gt;What is for me, is for you.&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s the best I can do.&lt;br /&gt;[Cure instrumental then verse 2]</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 15:24:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606047</guid> <dc:creator>Tee P Kay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T15:24:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605969</link> <description>I sometimes wonder if it is always going to be so that we/the humanity has to go back several hundres or thousands of years to find these &amp;#034;great masters&amp;#034;. Of course those are great stories but you know what about our time and our culture. I once got heard an elder zen monk telling a younger one: Forget the masters and focus on your own practice. I.e. become great yourself.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 11:05:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605969</guid> <dc:creator>Kim Katami</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T11:05:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605920</link> <description>Ah... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is for me, is for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Reality is a fractal.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does it matter if I am more holy?  What if I am God?  No... it doesn&amp;#039;t matter.  There is no such thing as holiness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When an old woman gives you a worn scarf&lt;br /&gt;When an old man gives you an old story&lt;br /&gt;When a young man gives you his toys&lt;br /&gt;When a young women gives empty promises&lt;br /&gt;When a cat brings you a dead bird&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is love.  It is all out of Love.  It is a credit to who you are.&lt;br /&gt;Likewise... I give you what you asked for while telling you it is useless.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The poor farmer was starving and only had one mustard seed.  He had sold his farm for this seed because it was promised that it was the seed of Life.  So the farmer planted the seed and watched as a tower grew past the clouds.  He climbed.  He climbed into the realms of Giants.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When he saw the sleeping Giant, he was scared but soon he would die unless he ate.  He grabbed a small bird and rushed back down the tower.  He immediately set to make a fire, but before he prepared his meal, the bird Shit Gold!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He took the bird to his only friend, one who had just swept his floor.  He tried to show the bird, but his friend said &amp;#034;Take it out!  It will Shit Everywhere!&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You think I put myself above you?  I speak to you because I want to praise you.  What you do with that will determine if you live in Gold, or live without knowing that you could have ever lived in Gold.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 08:32:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605920</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T08:32:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605903</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dhammatalks&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;Archive&amp;#x2f;Writings&amp;#x2f;a_lee_autobiography_v121212&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;The Autobiography of Phra Ajaan Lee&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 07:39:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605903</guid> <dc:creator>ftw</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T07:39:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605894</link> <description>With respect, Jeremy, I sense a slight holier-than-thou attitude from you and my resistance is natural. When we get into deep meditative states our subconscious emits all kinds of intuitive, revelatory insight that makes perfect sense within our own mindstreams. On more than one occasion I have inflicted these ideas on others due to lack of awareness. I was arrogant enough at the time to suggest that they were somehow to blame for the &amp;#034;transmission&amp;#034; of my cosmic wisdom being lost in translation. My impression is that I am now at the receiving end of the self-same arrogance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Essentially what I&amp;#039;m saying Jeremy is that I believe your &amp;#034;message&amp;#034; was tailor-made for you, not me. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Still, I will reflect on your theory as it is very interesting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for sharing with me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Adam</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 06:39:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605894</guid> <dc:creator>Adam F.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T06:39:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605874</link> <description>Work on your reception.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I tailored this for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For reasons.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 05:40:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605874</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T05:40:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605852</link> <description>Thank you all. Some great resources here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have started on the Dowman book, Masters of Mahamudra and it is fascinating and exactly what I had in mind. Thank you JJ!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jeremy May, I sense some interesting ideas being expressed but please work on your delivery. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Simon, Tee P Kay, JJ, Jeremy, many thanks,&lt;br /&gt;Adam</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 05:05:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605852</guid> <dc:creator>Adam F.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T05:05:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605737</link> <description>All These accounts are a complete history of the world. Within it are contained the events of the future. It is called the Buddha&amp;#039;s deshana. It exists in all religions, however, with completely correlating terms. It is in Genesis. It is in Hindi. It is in pieces scattered over Africa, older than any books but bound in oral traditions of Shamanism. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no way to prove me wrong. Only some of you will even notice what I&amp;#039;ve said. If you feel like proving this to yourself, you can do it by following the languages on Earth. Language changes slowly so words of untranslated versions of this story are close to the terms used in the Pali canon. Those terms are close to the persian buddhists that no-one thinks about. These words spread to Israel during the gospels, to both catholics and protestants in the two places left with resources, Europe and America. There are words in america&amp;#039;s version of the Buddha&amp;#039;s Deshana using latin that has changed little. See this in how science terms translate in the Latin ways. Put them together in a form that sounds like poetry and you will see how science is a religion. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Catholicism has a few extra books that protestants reject because it sounds like heresy. It is the deshana of a time when science needed terms in latin that translated to the mix of lingui they used.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When you understand that then you will understand that religion is simply the most scientific terms available during the height of great societies. Great societies moved only where there were forests. All deserts have been man-made. If this were not true than why can all places on earth support life in some way? Science tells us that over time, there comes an abundance of life no matter the conditions. When life stays in one place long enough, it makes dirt and plants that can live on no rain. When dirt builds up it reaches a place that has water and moves it to where there is no rain. Rivers become like veins and the creatures that lived on no rain became creatures that lived on abundance. The difference between a desert and a rainforest is the way to understand why creatures are so beautiful that they wrap themselves in rainbows and the variety of them number in a range that has no meaning to humans.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So can you see that without man, all of Earth was a paradise of such magnitude that it exists in the memory of genes and comes out in all ways as Deshana. Science is the drive to explain where the world we somehow love has hidden itself from history to live only in our dreams.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The garden of eden... Ed-means &amp;#039;end/without/empty&amp;#039; and -En in this context means &amp;#039;outside of time&amp;#034; just as -on would mean &amp;#039;within history&amp;#039; so.... The garden of eden was not a place in the world. It was the garden when there was no history. It was the entire era before Mankind began to farm and learn to make records to farm. That was the beginning of everything for us.... the end of something that we sing about in Old Songs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://books.google.com/books?id=qh0HBAAAQBAJ&amp;amp;pg=PT39&amp;amp;lpg=PT39&amp;amp;dq=Adhichittha%E2%80%9D&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=_E9wJ7pppm&amp;amp;sig=fKN0dMKpCrJ_hX_zUZemS9pU3YQ&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=dvk3VLb0EoXOggT064KADw&amp;amp;ved=0CD0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=Adhichittha%E2%80%9D&amp;amp;f=false&lt;br /&gt;http://books.google.com/books?id=zUFCAAAAIAAJ&amp;amp;pg=PA168&amp;amp;lpg=PA168&amp;amp;dq=tathagatha%27s+son+-song&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=cx7AI7zsSW&amp;amp;sig=QF557a21DWyxHiTurXfoDdCY8P8&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=-qc4VIzqI4mbyQTIsIHQCA&amp;amp;ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=tathagatha&amp;#039;s%20son%20-song&amp;amp;f=false&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://archive.org/details/SamantabhadraDevotions&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutra_(Mahayana)&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatamsaka_Sutra&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_cosmology&lt;br /&gt;http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&amp;amp;t=4387&lt;br /&gt;http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/iranians_role_expansion_buddhism.php&lt;br /&gt;http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lob/lob23.htm&lt;br /&gt;http://books.google.com/books?id=q8UFuMUdRK0C&amp;amp;pg=PA81&amp;amp;lpg=PA81&amp;amp;dq=Vaibh%C4%81%E1%B9%A3ika&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=1SJ2Kub9sB&amp;amp;sig=Ft0fmGFTJMWAxJ8Y7UOUnr70RCA&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=oBU7VKukFc6HyASw5YCgBQ&amp;amp;ved=0CFUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=Vaibh%C4%81%E1%B9%A3ika&amp;amp;f=false&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9812/9812_h.html&lt;br /&gt;http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113310/vladimir-nabokov-art-translation&lt;br /&gt;Colleen http://books.google.com/books?id=J3tml_2zutEC&amp;amp;pg=PA36&amp;amp;lpg=PA36&amp;amp;dq=queen+bodhisattva&amp;amp;source=bl&amp;amp;ots=8QfTTIQ4RC&amp;amp;sig=w7p2QsfSRGKwfBw9YV8Y5_lmIC0&amp;amp;hl=en&amp;amp;sa=X&amp;amp;ei=ZmM8VP_QGIT2yQSG44L4CA&amp;amp;ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&amp;amp;q=queen%20bodhisattva&amp;amp;f=false&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Buddha Stephens http://www.clearing.org/cgi/archive.cgi?/homer/act70.memo&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/resources/downloads/sutras/08technicalMayayana/Lions%20Roar%20fo%20SriVimala.doc.pdf&lt;br /&gt;http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ksitigarbha.pdf&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra&lt;br /&gt;These... these are just the echoes of Now.  There is only One Story.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 01:34:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605737</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T01:34:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605729</link> <description>&amp;#034;Dipa Ma: The Life and Legacy of a Buddhist Master&amp;#034;, by Amy Schmidt is good.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 01:02:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605729</guid> <dc:creator>Tee P Kay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T01:02:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605540</link> <description>http://www.amazon.com/Born-In-Tibet-Chogyam-Trungpa/dp/1570627142 (bio of Chogyam Trungpa)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Hakuin/wildivy.html (parts of Hakuin&amp;#039;s autobiography)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Atisha-Dipamkara/5717) (bio of Atisha Dipamkara, the website treasuryoflives has a lot of hagiographic material)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/en_milarepa.html (life of Milarepa)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/5js2h5mjm31elnq/Keith-Dowman-Masters-of-Mahamudra.pdf?dl=0 (lives of the 84 Mahasiddhas)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;James</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 18:14:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605540</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T18:14:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605500</link> <description>Not really a biography but in Modern Buddhists Master by Jack Kornfield there is a short biography of each masters in the book along their teachings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;ca&amp;#x2f;books&amp;#x2f;about&amp;#x2f;Living_Buddhist_Masters&amp;#x2e;html&amp;#x3f;id&amp;#x3d;8InEkEp5FtEC&amp;#x26;redir_esc&amp;#x3d;y"&gt;http://books.google.ca/books/about/Living_Buddhist_Masters.html?id=8InEkEp5FtEC&amp;amp;redir_esc=y&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is the biography of Ajarn Mun which I haven&amp;#039;t read:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x2f;pdf_file&amp;#x2f;acariya-mun&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/acariya-mun.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is more biography on buddhanet:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;search&amp;#x3f;ie&amp;#x3d;UTF-8&amp;#x26;oe&amp;#x3d;UTF-8&amp;#x26;q&amp;#x3d;biography&amp;#x26;domains&amp;#x3d;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x26;sitesearch&amp;#x3d;www&amp;#x2e;buddhanet&amp;#x2e;net&amp;#x26;submit&amp;#x2e;x&amp;#x3d;0&amp;#x26;submit&amp;#x2e;y&amp;#x3d;0&amp;#x26;safe&amp;#x3d;strict&amp;#x26;gws_rd&amp;#x3d;ssl"&gt;https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&amp;amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;amp;q=biography&amp;amp;domains=www.buddhanet.net&amp;amp;sitesearch=www.buddhanet.net&amp;amp;submit.x=0&amp;amp;submit.y=0&amp;amp;safe=strict&amp;amp;gws_rd=ssl&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:42:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605500</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T16:42:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Biographies of great masters . . .</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605234</link> <description>Hey all,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m looking for books that give detailed, inspiring, even dramatic accounts of the spiritual journeys of great Buddhist masters. Any help is greatly appreciated, as always!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;Adam</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:38:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605234</guid> <dc:creator>Adam F.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T07:38:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605193</link> <description>Very relaxing.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 04:48:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605193</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T04:48:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605165</link> <description>&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;HaZHrg_7EAA"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Song of Mahamudra - by Tilopa, its like these words but more comprehensive. always calms me down without fail.&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;HaZHrg_7EAA"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaZHrg_7EAA&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 04:18:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605165</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T04:18:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605050</link> <description>Yeah the second lines are more detailed. Letting go is not repressing.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 22:29:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605050</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T22:29:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604869</link> <description>This might be something to examine, but I don&amp;#039;t think these pairs match up:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t recall&lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what has passed) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t imagine&lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what may come)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t think&lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what is happening now)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re letting go, does that really mean stopping various mental processes, or does it mean allowing them without inhibitions. The last one especially, I think letting go of what&amp;#039;s happening can cause a lot of thoughts to &amp;#034;break loose&amp;#034; so to speak. I think I favor the bottom lines over the top. The top sounds like a lot of &amp;#034;doing,&amp;#034; which goes against the very last line saying to rest.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:32:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604869</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T20:32:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604600</link> <description>I think this looks more like instructions for Shikantaza since it looks for all the possible clingings that could be there and what to let go of. Of couse you wouldn&amp;#039;t want to do this in daily life when you actually need to think, recall etc.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:02:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604600</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T14:02:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604403</link> <description>This also sounds like the dzogchen &amp;#034;pointing out&amp;#034; - are they essentially the same thing?  I always liked these tibetian ideas.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 06:44:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604403</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T06:44:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Six words of advice - Tilopa</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604347</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;unfetteredmind&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;includes&amp;#x2f;sixwords&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;http://www.unfetteredmind.org/includes/sixwords.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another good Mahamudra list:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Don’t recall &lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what has passed) &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t imagine&lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what may come)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t think &lt;br /&gt;(Let go of what is happening now)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don’t examine &lt;br /&gt;(Don’t try to figure anything out)&lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;Don’t control &lt;br /&gt;(Don’t try to make anything happen)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Rest &lt;br /&gt;(Relax, right now, and rest)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;unfetteredmind&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;includes&amp;#x2f;sixwords&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 04:58:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604347</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T04:58:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ego Development Theory</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603261</link> <description>A few people on this forum took parth in this study on elightenment experiences and ego development...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&amp;amp;#40;D Z&amp;amp;#41; Dhru Val&lt;/strong&gt;I know a few people who post on DhO took part in Dr. J.A. Martin&amp;#039;s psychological research on enlightened people. Some might have heard the buddhist geeks poscasts on the topic see &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistgeeks&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;07&amp;#x2f;bg-224-the-study-of-non-symbolic-consciousness&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Ep. 1&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;buddhistgeeks&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2011&amp;#x2f;07&amp;#x2f;bg-225-the-end-of-self-referencing&amp;#x2f;"&gt;Ep. 2&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The full text is out...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;docs&amp;#x2e;google&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;file&amp;#x2f;d&amp;#x2f;0B9IyLjPYAVCYN2I4NGZhOTAtMzU1MC00YjNmLWI0YmUtYzllNWQzMjE2YWZl&amp;#x2f;edit&amp;#x3f;pli&amp;#x3d;1"&gt;J A Martin - Dissertion on Enlightenment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I assume the non-symbolic consciousness stuff will be familiar for most people here, for more details on the stages of ego development that the study talks about see here...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;stillpointintegral&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;docs&amp;#x2f;cook-greuter&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;Ego Development&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2014 05:19:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603261</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-12T05:19:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ego Development Theory</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602767</link> <description>Thanks for the link...fun skimming. I do love mapping and stages of development.~D</description> <pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:52:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602767</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-11T04:52:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ego Development Theory</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602279</link> <description>I find models like this helpful as well in that they illuminate how our sense of self is &amp;#039;layered&amp;#039; developmentally. So for instance if &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; are construct-aware that is where your conscious identity is, but all the earlier layers are there, operaing beneath the surface (until/unless you go into the archeoogy of &amp;#039;you&amp;#039; and start to see those earlier constructs operating in real time-- this helps with the hubris thing). Also considering how my &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; shifts up and down levels of development in different contexts (for instance, I&amp;#039;m pretty solidly mature at work, but in a college class I slide back into very adolescent dynamics maybe; or in romantic relationships I am very mature but in relating to friends from my teen years or certain family members maybe another whole layer rises to the top; or whatever). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think this developmental theory goes together really well with Roberto Assagioli&amp;#039;s Psychosynthesis and his theory of &amp;#039;sub-personalities&amp;#039; which states that the consious identity (ego) changes due to circumstance and we basicaly each have a set of &amp;#039;sub-personalities&amp;#039; that come out under different circumstances. It makes even more sense if you have both horizontal sub-personalities (like multiple versions of a given level) plus vertical (sub-personalities made of earlier and later structures). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, I totally agree that developmental theory helps alot with compassion because it helps us see the logic in others&amp;#039; positions. It&amp;#039;s also awesome for parenting because it helps to be adaptive and to see where your kids &amp;#039;edge&amp;#039; is and where their safety zone is and helps one be sensitive to helping them regulate themselves (when they may need to lean in and push their edge, when they need to be helped to lean back and feel safe/contained/familiar, etc). </description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:08:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602279</guid> <dc:creator>. Jake .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T14:08:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Ego Development Theory</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602011</link> <description>So I ended up simming earlier sections a lot and later sections a lot less. Not even reading all of it, the ideas within this pdf turned out to help me a lot I think. I&amp;#039;ve been suffering a lot more than usual recently. I think these two variables may have contributed to some (conventional) insight into understanding compassion deeper than previously (maybe). I think I&amp;#039;m probably inside the Autonomous stage and the construct-aware stage because I have attributes of both. Like being pissed off about the unnecessary excess suffering of the world. But even disclosing where I think I am I feel the &amp;#034;cheif anxiety&amp;#034; of the construct aware stage: &amp;#034;Fearing that almost nobody understands them in their complexity and sympa&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;thizes &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;with their experience, and that by fearing this, they are culpable of hubr&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;is. Concomitant with feeling not &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;appreciated or understood can be a deep sense of loneliness.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#034; I&amp;#039;m definitely neurotic about being culpable of hubris. Anyway, whether or not any of this is true there maybe be a similar effect on me as being exposed to the progress of insight is. The progress of insight helped me meditate better, and this article seems to help me be more accepting of myself and others as we are. So something is at least working here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And yeah, I can see how some of these stages are related to the stages of insight. I mean how can you be ego-aware without insight into no-self? Attributes of the Individuaist stage sounded like how I was around the A&amp;amp;P event.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway. That was one of the helpful sources of information (if not the most) I&amp;#039;ve read since MCTB. Thanks for sharing.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2014 21:21:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602011</guid> <dc:creator>Alex E</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-09T21:21:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601303</link> <description>Funny, because the word sutta literally means: &amp;#034;thread&amp;#034;. And the DhO is composed mainly of threads!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps scholars of the DhO-tradition in the future will have problem sifting out chaff from the wheat, especially when people were being humorous or serious. Maybe Nikolai&amp;#039;s song lyrics posts will be interpreted as hymns or poems.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who knows. Unless they have an MP3 archive of all current songs. Lol.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:04:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601303</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T23:04:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601279</link> <description>You guys crack me up! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;J</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 22:37:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601279</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T22:37:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601022</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Florian Weps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Chris J Macie:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;BTW: All these goings-on &amp;#x2013; secular-, pragmatic-, post-modern-Buddhism, hardcore Dharma, etc. &amp;#x2013; could be viewed, from my training in historical methodology, as the makings of a 20th-21st-Century &amp;#034;&lt;strong&gt;commentarial tradition&lt;/strong&gt;.&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t even&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I have this image of future scribes, after the collapse of civilization, meticulously copying DhO threads onto clay tablets and hotly debating what the word &amp;#034;wetpaint&amp;#034; could possibly have meant in the context of the hardcore commentaries.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wet paint was used as the medium with which the brave adventures of Dho and KFD recorded their experiences. Perhaps the scribes attempted to use this medium in recording Dho threads, but found that clay was more durable. Sadly, the scribes missed the point of using wet paint: it was a profound teaching of impermanence, like the sand mandalas of the Tibetans. </description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:35:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5601022</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T12:35:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600993</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Chris J Macie:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;BTW: All these goings-on &amp;#x2013; secular-, pragmatic-, post-modern-Buddhism, hardcore Dharma, etc. &amp;#x2013; could be viewed, from my training in historical methodology, as the makings of a 20th-21st-Century &amp;#034;&lt;strong&gt;commentarial tradition&lt;/strong&gt;.&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t even&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now I have this image of future scribes, after the collapse of civilization, meticulously copying DhO threads onto clay tablets and hotly debating what the word &amp;#034;wetpaint&amp;#034; could possibly have meant in the context of the hardcore commentaries.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2014 10:34:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600993</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-08T10:34:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600536</link> <description>re Tee P Kay (10/6/14 10:44 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram. )&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(exploring subtitles)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #0000ff"&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;A 21st Century Visuddhimagga&amp;#034; or&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;A Visuddhimagga for the Modern Age&amp;#034;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps better &amp;#039;&lt;em&gt;Vimuttimagga&lt;/em&gt;&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;Purity&amp;#039; or &amp;#039;holiness&amp;#039; … (&lt;em&gt;visuddhi&lt;/em&gt;) might ring a bit too idealistic, non-pragmatic.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;Deliverance&amp;#039; (&lt;em&gt;vimutti&lt;/em&gt;) has a more general sense, not specifying &lt;em&gt;from what&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;to what&lt;/em&gt;, per se. And perhaps alluding to Daniel&amp;#039;s getting beyond those constraints that have hindered Western teaching and practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BTW: All these goings-on &amp;#x2013; secular-, pragmatic-, post-modern-Buddhism, hardcore Dharma, etc. &amp;#x2013; could be viewed, from my training in historical methodology, as the makings of a 20th-21st-Century &amp;#034;&lt;strong&gt;commentarial tradition&lt;/strong&gt;.&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:06:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5600536</guid> <dc:creator>Chris J Macie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-07T14:06:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Books</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599958</link> <description>I just found this book in pdf format. I think there has been some intresst on the forum for it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;THE TREATISEONTHE METHOD OF VIPASSANA INSIGHT MEDITATIONWhich can speedily lead to the attainment of Magga-Phala-Nibbāna&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-vipassana_treatise_volume_i_part_i.pdf&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-vipassana_treatise_volume_i_part_ii.pdf&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-vipassana_treatise_volume_ii_part_i.pdf&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;http://www.saraniya.com/books/mahasi-sayadaw/pdf/mahasi_sayadaw-vipassana_treatise_volume_ii_part_ii.pdf&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Enjoy&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Gunnar</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 20:31:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599958</guid> <dc:creator>Gunnar Johansson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T20:31:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599810</link> <description>BTW, this horse has probably long left the stable but the other day an alternate sub-title for the book occurred to me. If some of us consider &amp;#034;arahat&amp;#034; to be controversial after Daniel&amp;#039;s name, then just think how much cat-among-the-pigeons fun we could have if:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;was replaced with ... drum roll:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;A 21st Century Visuddhimagga&amp;#034; or&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&amp;#034;A Visuddhimagga for the Modern Age&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #222222"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 15:42:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599810</guid> <dc:creator>Tee P Kay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T15:42:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599798</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Piers M:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;BTW how could anyone get &lt;em&gt;annoyed&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt; by the design of the original cover? It&amp;#039;s just a book cover. ...There&amp;#039;s more serious crap to get worked up in life about. But that&amp;#039;s just me!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;See: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson&amp;#039;s_law_of_triviality]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson&amp;#039;s_law_of_triviality</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 15:28:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599798</guid> <dc:creator>Tee P Kay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T15:28:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5595468</link> <description>I noticed my shoulders getting a little more loose, which is nice. With my arms behind my back I could almost reach halfway up (above elvow) my left arm, with the right hand. I started noticing this last week when I could grab my left elbow with right hand easily.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This may be only due to the daily exercises, I don&amp;#039;t know. Daily exercises include pulling the shoulder back &amp;#034;as far as possible&amp;#034; and holding for for 20s , and do the same forward, and also upwards.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2014 12:24:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5595468</guid> <dc:creator>faB</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-01T12:24:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Awake! Stories of awakening and dialogues leading to it</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594955</link> <description>&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Awake! &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 24px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stories of awakening &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;and dialogues leading to it&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 18px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Read word by word how several seekers have come to spiritual awakening in &lt;br /&gt;Guidance to Spiritual Awakening offered by the Samadhi Path. The book &lt;br /&gt;includes 9 stories and practical instructions in how to become free of &lt;br /&gt;I-delusion.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Georgia&amp;#x2c;serif"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Download for free as a pdf from &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;samadhipath&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;files&amp;#x2f;sundarayoga&amp;#x2e;kotisivukone&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;tiedostot&amp;#x2f;awake&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;here&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt; or from this page: &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;samadhipath&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;114"&gt;http://en.samadhipath.com/114&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 20:27:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594955</guid> <dc:creator>Kim Katami</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T20:27:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: my meditation blog</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594563</link> <description>Just want to bump this maybe once per year. My meditation blog is approaching 50,000 words, and I think there&amp;#039;s stuff in there that could be helpful to people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Meditation Stuff:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;em&gt;Meditation and transformative practice vis-à-vis rationality, phenomenology, neuroscience and {clinical, developmental, evolutionary} psychology because humans.&lt;/em&gt;&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;meditationstuff&amp;#x2e;wordpress&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;articles&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://meditationstuff.wordpress.com/articles/&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2014 15:26:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5594563</guid> <dc:creator>Mark Lippmann</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-30T15:26:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593529</link> <description>Just updated the OP to make it more readily apparent what all this is, and to add some links</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 02:24:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593529</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T02:24:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593513</link> <description>@faB&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for posting your experience. I&amp;#039;ve gone through very similar things but haven&amp;#039;t gotten around to posting updates. As to whether to do it before bed, I&amp;#039;ve never tried any of the breathing sessions immediately before bed so I dunno. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;@James&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m just glad people are getting some use out of this. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I want to emphasize that thinking about any of these execises as a mechnical process misses the point. While doing these exercises one should relax as much as possible and really feel the body and the emotions. With this attitude one can trust that the body will naturally remove the blocks by shaking, yawning, crying, jerking, yelling, etc. Of course, this process is gradual. Take it easy, make haste slowly, and don&amp;#039;t freak out if you&amp;#039;re sometimes unstable. Meet it with courage and it will pass.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, Buddhist practices aren&amp;#039;t inherently tight and suppressive, but it does seem to me that many meditators practice this way. It&amp;#039;s not necessary to practice this way.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2014 01:30:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593513</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-29T01:30:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593353</link> <description>Hi Droll,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks so much for the info on Reich and other psychology guys you&amp;#039;ve been posting, I&amp;#039;ve started the regimen found in the book you posted. Thus far it&amp;#039;s been very helpful in relieving the tension around my pelvis, sexual tension in the past presented two options for me:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1) Relax it.&lt;br /&gt;2) Ignore/suppress it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Neither of them worked, relaxing it seemed to just not do anything, and a few hours later I would &amp;#034;rubber-band&amp;#039; back into being in a state of hyper-vigilance, suppressing it seemed to just... be suppressing it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But doing this work seems to relieve the tension, not really relieve, but it&amp;#039;s hard to describe. I can see how my &amp;#034;Buddhist&amp;#034; practice from the past was a distortion of effort and striving, it was way too tight, perhaps even paranoid, it was probably just neurosis to be honest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks man!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2014 20:02:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593353</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-28T20:02:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>The Progress of Insight w/pāḷi version</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592446</link> <description>&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;ahandfulofleaves&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;documents&amp;#x2f;The&amp;#x25;20Progress&amp;#x25;20of&amp;#x25;20Insight_Mahasi_Nyanaponika_1965&amp;#x2e;pdf"&gt;The Progress of Insight (Visuddhi Ñāṇa Kathā)&lt;/a&gt;, Complete with pāḷi version, by Mahāsi Sayādaw</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:54:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592446</guid> <dc:creator>Nāgariko Bhikkhu</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T17:54:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>books and articles archive</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591694</link> <description>http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/Resources.html</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 01:53:45 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591694</guid> <dc:creator>Nāgariko Bhikkhu</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T01:53:45Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591316</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been trying to fix my &amp;#034;night owl&amp;#034; habit and as a result I often get 6h sleep lately, which got me wondering:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is it a good idea or not to do this type of breathing exercises when tired ? Any thoughts?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 12:54:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591316</guid> <dc:creator>faB</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T12:54:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591187</link> <description>It&amp;#039;s fortunate that Dropbox recently raised the usage quotas. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/happy.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Simon</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 07:56:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591187</guid> <dc:creator>Simon Ekstrand</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T07:56:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591059</link> <description>Tibetan Buddhism collection&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/83pjicvdojuuv8c/AAAdfcVCXqD86z0RKEQhQlD2a?dl=0&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Tony Duff Collection&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fucbuc0get847oo/AAAUKa76rvyVuPGmqtX5EPBxa?dl=0&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;cheers&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 07:19:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591059</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T07:19:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588638</link> <description>Thanks so much!</description> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 09:05:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588638</guid> <dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-22T09:05:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588448</link> <description>Found a goldmine of quotes from the practice-manual PDF in the Dzogchen library,&lt;br /&gt;called: Longchen Nyingtik Practice Manual by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;LKqB8Ai&amp;#x2e;png&amp;#x3f;1" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;qhxenbc&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;EtLQAFD&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;aWO8mst&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;</description> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 01:36:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588448</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-22T01:36:16Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588443</link> <description>Awesome! Will do.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 01:30:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588443</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-22T01:30:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588388</link> <description>Hi James,&lt;br /&gt;thanks very much theres a fantastic range of reading there, its a great way to share and I will add what I can to your thread when I get home from work&lt;br /&gt;enjoy your day&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:43:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588388</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T22:43:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588308</link> <description>Yes, I&amp;#039;d like to add a big thank you, thanks James.  </description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:48:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588308</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T20:48:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588303</link> <description>No problem!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Added some lists as to the content of the folders.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:45:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588303</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T20:45:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588150</link> <description>Thanks!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 15:59:18 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5588150</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T15:59:18Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Shit-ton of Dharma... books.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5587993</link> <description>Hello,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s a shit-ton of PDFs and books related to Dharma and spirituality, enjoy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;List:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To access Adi Da&amp;#039;s books: Go to archive.org and type in www.beezone.com, around 2010 should do fine.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Quanzhen Taoism and Taoism in General: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;bet0da6n877u7of&amp;#x2f;Cultivating-Perfection-Mysticism-and-Self-Transformation-in-Early-Quanzhen-Daoism&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/bet0da6n877u7of/Cultivating-Perfection-Mysticism-and-Self-Transformation-in-Early-Quanzhen-Daoism.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;t1vnun7iqe75ckp&amp;#x2f;Cleary-Thomas-Taoist-Meditation&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1vnun7iqe75ckp/Cleary-Thomas-Taoist-Meditation.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;js7xmpo1rb1vlz2&amp;#x2f;Early-Quanzhen-Taoists&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/js7xmpo1rb1vlz2/Early-Quanzhen-Taoists.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;oycv0x30f4zvfab&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Book-of-Venerable-Masters&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/oycv0x30f4zvfab/Komjathy-Book-of-Venerable-Masters.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;qrajzckcoitaxxx&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Introduction&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/qrajzckcoitaxxx/Komjathy-Introduction.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;llkyhqafoj9jfgx&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Inward-Training&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/llkyhqafoj9jfgx/Komjathy-Inward-Training.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;s5o0hbfgmdem31f&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Redoubled-Yang-s-Fifteen-Discourses&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/s5o0hbfgmdem31f/Komjathy-Redoubled-Yang-s-Fifteen-Discourses.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;7265zvn4ebcwrkb&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Scripture-for-the-Daily-Interal-Practice&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/7265zvn4ebcwrkb/Komjathy-Scripture-for-the-Daily-Interal-Practice.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;xjo5ldy0vgezkzt&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Scripture-of-Clarity-and-Stillness&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/xjo5ldy0vgezkzt/Komjathy-Scripture-of-Clarity-and-Stillness.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;6wbmi633c5k55ym&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Scripture-of-the-Hidden-Talisman&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wbmi633c5k55ym/Komjathy-Scripture-of-the-Hidden-Talisman.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;dwhfic8cmvf5u3g&amp;#x2f;Komjathy-Yellow-Thearch-s-Basic-Questions&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwhfic8cmvf5u3g/Komjathy-Yellow-Thearch-s-Basic-Questions.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;1kx213z0eyf9an3&amp;#x2f;Louise-Komjathy-Handbooks-for-Daoist-Practise-Introduction&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kx213z0eyf9an3/Louise-Komjathy-Handbooks-for-Daoist-Practise-Introduction.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;g6a9p2ptf1jrgoa&amp;#x2f;Louis-Komjathy-Kang-Siqi-Daoist-Texts-in-Translation&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/g6a9p2ptf1jrgoa/Louis-Komjathy-Kang-Siqi-Daoist-Texts-in-Translation.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;4b1s0afcux3oocw&amp;#x2f;Secret-of-the-Golden-FLower-Thomas-Cleary-pdf&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/4b1s0afcux3oocw/Secret-of-the-Golden-FLower-Thomas-Cleary-pdf.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;eq9u84c2909a5kd&amp;#x2f;130245082-Sitting-in-Oblivion-The-Heart-of-Daoist-Meditation&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq9u84c2909a5kd/130245082-Sitting-in-Oblivion-The-Heart-of-Daoist-Meditation.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt; (I highly recommend this one)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Vipassana, a la Mahasi Sayadaw:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Progress of Insight treatise&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fundamentals of Insight Meditation&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Practical Vipassana Exercises&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Treatise on Vipassana, in four parts&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instructions for going to the website for Sayadaw U Pandita&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;In This Very Life&amp;#034;, can be found via Google&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sh&amp;#x2f;zqa4jipz5vi4ue0&amp;#x2f;AAAD8IJTN7Dc4WvTyBkJMu69a&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zqa4jipz5vi4ue0/AAAD8IJTN7Dc4WvTyBkJMu69a?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;(Folder contains the translation of his large treatise, as well as text files on how to access other Dharma materials.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dzogchen, and misc:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Various books containing practical instructions on Dzogchen,&lt;br /&gt;particularly recommend zhang-zung-practices and practice-dzogchen.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sh&amp;#x2f;q86zp7on95jkdag&amp;#x2f;AAAcrm0Qcy91nN_PKQdSGXzya&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q86zp7on95jkdag/AAAcrm0Qcy91nN_PKQdSGXzya?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mahamudra, and misc:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;A Meditation Guide For Mahamudra, from mahamudracenter.org&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Translations of Root Tantras.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Works by Alexandra David Neel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of note is a translation of Tsongkhapa&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;A Brilliant Lamp To Illuminate the Five Stages&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;six-yogas is an old translation of another work by Tsongkhapa detailing the practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa,&lt;br /&gt;can be found on sacred-texts.com&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sh&amp;#x2f;1q1jmx37bigri1h&amp;#x2f;AAAjGYRoeoWXMvHdHXodldLda&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1q1jmx37bigri1h/AAAjGYRoeoWXMvHdHXodldLda?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Zen, and misc:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Multiple translations of the Fukanzazengi.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Translation of the Bodhicaryavatara by B. Alan Wallace.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Translations of the Shobogenzo by Dogen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Shinzen Young&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;Five Ways&amp;#034; PDF (found from his website).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Chronicle of the Buddhas by Mingun Sayadaw&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sh&amp;#x2f;51rx3ys35fbjiwi&amp;#x2f;AACfFBHOKPThRAcIs52QqIJra&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/51rx3ys35fbjiwi/AACfFBHOKPThRAcIs52QqIJra?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Magick:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;vq9f8t67krvkn2y&amp;#x2f;130806623-Dave-Lee-Chaotopia-Sorcery-and-Ecstasy-in-the-Fifth-Aeon&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/vq9f8t67krvkn2y/130806623-Dave-Lee-Chaotopia-Sorcery-and-Ecstasy-in-the-Fifth-Aeon.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Works of Sri Aurobindo:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The Life Divine&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Letters on Yoga Pt. 1&lt;br /&gt;Letters on Yoga Pt. 2&lt;br /&gt;Letters on Yoga Pt. 3&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Letters on Yoga (all four)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Synthesis of Yoga&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;sh&amp;#x2f;rs6x2zortjpa91a&amp;#x2f;AADknKQY8VTK55fSK8yInYRja&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rs6x2zortjpa91a/AADknKQY8VTK55fSK8yInYRja?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Biographies of Sufi Saints:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;nple4r3t8x3d2vr&amp;#x2f;sufi-saints&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/nple4r3t8x3d2vr/sufi-saints.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Adyashanti:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;04v3vp0fp7rwfwe&amp;#x2f;The_Way_of_Liberation_Ebook&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/04v3vp0fp7rwfwe/The_Way_of_Liberation_Ebook.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;NLP:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;NLP Patterns Book, 350+ patterns&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;amzr6xigfabzvhg&amp;#x2f;nlp-big&amp;#x2e;pdf&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/amzr6xigfabzvhg/nlp-big.pdf?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psychology:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Mask of Sanity by Hervey Cleckley&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dropbox&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;s&amp;#x2f;ykzha6dxv6yw2ow&amp;#x2f;sanity_1&amp;#x2e;PdF&amp;#x3f;dl&amp;#x3d;0"&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykzha6dxv6yw2ow/sanity_1.PdF?dl=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Le terma, has been, le revealed!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 08:53:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5587993</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-21T08:53:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB Editor: Please Describe How You Experience the Three Door</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584665</link> <description>@BCDEF, thanks for the testimony on the Three Doors as matching Daniel&amp;#039;s descriptions! Yay! And WOW! Spinning-Doughnut Universe!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Can you describe how you experience the suffering + impermance one? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now that I read those descriptions here again (thanks for typing them out!), it is very evident to me that my one fruition was indeed emptiness with impermance as secondary aspect, which is just instinctively what I thought right after the meditation bell rang that day:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;When the emptiness aspect predominates and is combined with the impermanence door, there are three clear and discrete moments of moving towards or sideways to (or perhaps focusing on) an intelligent seeing image staring back at us, except that there is nothing on this side. After the third moment, the illusion collapses in a very natural and pleasant way. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Except . . . my &amp;#034;three [or four?] clear and discrete moments&amp;#034; were in looking at these blooming nimitta things arise and pass, arise and pass, and arise and pass. It was very slowed down and super clear, and then everything vanished. It was only upon reality reboot, after the cessation, that I experienced the &amp;#034;intelligent seeing image staring back . . . except that there is nothing on this side.&amp;#034; And I&amp;#039;m certain that things happened in this order, with the cessation in the middle and the staring back thing during reality&amp;#039;s coming back online. Dang, I would like to have some more fruitions so I can reobserve closely!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I wonder why I&amp;#039;m not having any additional fruitions. Hmmm. It has now been a month, and I&amp;#039;ve not noticed even a single additional fruition. But I do still feel &amp;#034;different,&amp;#034; and I fell right back to A&amp;amp;P immediately afterward, and directly afterward and since then I have access to hard jhana states and even formless ones, which has been such a dramatic change for me. Anyway, I&amp;#039;m getting off topic. . . . Thanks for your time and energy in responding.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And thanks to you, too, Nick!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 20:57:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584665</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T20:57:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB Editor: Please Describe How You Experience the Three Door</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584494</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jen Pearly:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So how do you know that the way &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; experience the three doors is the way they really always present if one is paying sufficient attention? This is the kind of question that comes up for me a lot while I&amp;#039;m reading MCTB: &amp;#034;Is he talking about the way it must occur, or just the way it has occured for him?&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s a good question. And even if one is paying sufficient attention and sees them, but sees them after having read MCTB, is it being scripted? Likewise with the Dark Night - does it really have to happen that way always or does reading MCTB set one up to experience it that way? I would argue that reading MCTB does heavily influence one&amp;#039;s practice. However I wouldn&amp;#039;t attribute it all to scripting. Rather I&amp;#039;d say, if you do X, then Y happens, regardless of whether you know about it in advance - yet reading MCTB gets you to do &amp;#034;X&amp;#034; reliably.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, I had a good amount of concentration right after stream-entry so I can verify that I recognize each of the following descriptions as something that happened to me:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;* When the impermanence aspect predominates and is combined with the emptiness aspect, then the whole universe strobes three times quickly with something staring back at us as a minor aspect of that universe, and then it seems that awareness collapses into the space after the third gap, perhaps turning slightly towards the thing that was staring back. &lt;br /&gt;* When the impermanence aspect predominates and is combined with the suffering aspect, then the three strobing moments feel wrenching, and the plunge into the gap feels fundamentally violating, like exactly the wrong thing to do. &lt;br /&gt;* When the emptiness aspect predominates and is combined with the impermanence door, there are three clear and discrete moments of moving towards or sideways to (or perhaps focusing on) an intelligent seeing image staring back at us, except that there is nothing on this side. After the third moment, the illusion collapses in a very natural and pleasant way. &lt;br /&gt;* When the emptiness door predominates with suffering as its second aspect, then a very strange thing happens. There is an image on one side staring back, and then the universe becomes a toroid (doughnut), and the image and this side of the toroid change places as the toroid universe spins. The spinning includes the whole background of space in all directions. Fruition occurs when the two have changed places and the whole thing vanishes. &lt;br /&gt;* When the suffering aspect predominates and is combined with the emptiness aspect, again, the toroid thing happens, except that it can be quite distorted or cone-like. The universe can rotate up or down and away from us, so that the primary experience is of an image falling from this side, though with the hint that it might be coming back around to this side.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The only one I don&amp;#039;t really recognize is the suffering + impermanence one: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;When the suffering door aspect predominates with impermanence present, then the three moments in which the universe is ripped away from us are distinct. When the suffering door predominates, the experience is always a bit creepy.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The toroid thing is actually especially cool. It happened to me exactly as he describes. For me it was like I was on the inside of a vertical doughnut. The important part of the doughnut shape is, if you keep going forward along the inside, you get back to where you started. So I would zoom along the doughnut, but then I&amp;#039;d switch sides and zoom along the other direction. The point along the doughnut where I switched kept getting closer &amp;amp; closer to each other until the thing collapsed. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Weird stuff.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:54:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584494</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T17:54:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB Editor: Please Describe How You Experience the Three Door</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584324</link> <description>Hi Jen,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s how I experience the 3 doors. They have been very consistent for me over approx 50+ fruitions where I was actually paying close attention =)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Impermanence door:&lt;br /&gt;The &amp;#034;background&amp;#034; suddenly shudders just prior to the fruition moment (the blip out)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not-Self door:&lt;br /&gt;Suddenly being sucked into a black hole.  A feeling of being rapidly pulled into a tiny point of nothingness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Suffering door:&lt;br /&gt;Feels like I&amp;#039;m walking around and then suddenly fall through the floor.  Has associated with it a creepy vibe.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope this is helpful!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Nick</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 15:58:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584324</guid> <dc:creator>Nickolas Grabovac</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T15:58:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5583232</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A plant, fabricates leaves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A mind, fabricates thoughts.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Where it gets tricky is that both a plant and a mind and thoughts are part of the reality we know but how does that reality come to pass?  How did the plant come to pass?  And the thoughts?  And the sense of self?  Scientists still don&amp;#039;t understand how plants without even a brain are able to function as they do, for instance.  A lot (or all?) of our beliefs about our reality are really just assumptions not based on full knowledge.  I don&amp;#039;t fully know how my sense of &amp;#039;I&amp;#039; comes into existence nor how formations or reality do.  And I don&amp;#039;t know much about any potential interrelations between the two or if there is or is not a creator in the generally used sense.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;But, can one say, I am fabricating thoughts?  I say, yes, it does seem so, but under close scrutiny, one finds that the thingy we call an I is nothing more than a collection of thoughts itself.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Yes that does seem so from what I can see from my current perspective.  But it&amp;#039;s a circular kind of logic, I create thoughts and my thoughts create I.  What comes first the chicken or the egg!  ;-)  Seems likely there is some or a lot of data missing which I assume is what we are working at here.. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wait, interuption, I get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oops, I get what you are saying, I am a dummy, sorry!!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I&amp;#039;m glad you do, I don&amp;#039;t always get myself sometimes or often!  ;-)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I guess I could also have a dis-agreement with the use of Formations as is supposes a Former, or one who forms, haha, &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Yep, that was what I was thinking. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Sorry, maybe the entire language is encapsulated in delusion.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Would make sense.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Anyway, thank you for openening &amp;#034;my&amp;#034; mind a little,  maybe I have a problem with words to describe what is wordless.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Talking about things makes me think about it and look inside more, which helps me think in different ways.  I think I do it more for myself than any others so no need to thank me in any way, that is for sure.  ;-P&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Sorry if I upset you or anything, I do enjoy your posts, whether you fabricate them or not. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/blink.gif" &gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I&amp;#039;m not upset at all.  I tend to speak very directly so that might make a false impression along that direction though, sorry!  :-)&lt;br /&gt;-Eva&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi phi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 23:59:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5583232</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T23:59:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582967</link> <description>Hi Eva!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, I agree to the point that these words are just words, and my only point was, that in my view, the word fabrications is not a good choice in describing, Formations (Mental, verbal, and physical), it just seems...mis-leading, sorry&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But , maybe due to the restrictions of English language, and that uses of the English language do not usually communicate about topics such as this, it is not at all surprising that the words with which we discuss these subjects are limited.  We are at the mercy of the poverty of our spirtual language.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If one would use the word fabrications in this way I can agree:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A plant, fabricates leaves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A mind, fabricates thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, can one say, I am fabricating thoughts?  I say, yes, it does seem so, but under close scrutiny, one finds that the thingy we call an I is nothing more than a collection of thoughts itself.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wait, interuption, I get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oops, I get what you are saying, I am a dummy, sorry!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess I could also have a dis-agreement with the use of Formations as is supposes a Former, or one who forms, haha, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sorry, maybe the entire language is encapsulated in delusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, thank you for openening &amp;#034;my&amp;#034; mind a little,  maybe I have a problem with words to describe what is wordless.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sorry if I upset you or anything, I do enjoy your posts, whether you fabricate them or not. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/blink.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi phi</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 19:22:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582967</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T19:22:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582946</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eva M Nie:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Seems to me if fabrications always contain unsatisfactoriness/dukkha, then instinct would suggest there is an element of effort/tiringness to them.  &lt;br /&gt;-Eva&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hiya, Eva and all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fabricatons and effort:  Merriam Webster, To Fabricate is to invent or create something.  Effort as something produced by work, produced by serious trying.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I don&amp;#039;t think you can convince me by going to the dictionary definition of &amp;#039;effort&amp;#039; when I said that I thought fabrications contain an ELEMENT of effort AND dukkha.  The English language does not have accurate words for this so of course I will have to bend the currently used words to try to make them fit. Also, &amp;#039;fabricate&amp;#039; is a verb and &amp;#039;formations&amp;#039; is a noun, they are not good synonyms in that way.  However, I used the words &amp;#039;fabrications&amp;#039; which is also a noun.  Anyway, feels like I am getting off what feels important to me and into less important semantics, but here I go anyway.  If there are formations, somehow they got formed, also I could say that fabrications somehow also got fabricated.  By whom or what?   I&amp;#039;ll leave that to the experts.  But so far I&amp;#039;ve seen nothing to suggest the terms are used any differently when nouns are compared to nouns and verbs compared to verbs.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To further explain, Formations, when observed arise on their own, they are tiring and do require energy to deal with them , and/or to sustain them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To view Formations as Fabrications that require effort, is to say that Formations arise due to Effort, and this is just not so, not only not so, but mis-leading to see reality as it is.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I did not say it required effort to form them.  I have little clear idea what it requires to form them or how that happens.  But sometimes or often there is effort and pressure that you don&amp;#039;t realize is there until it&amp;#039;s gone.  If you have lived under pressure your whole life, you are not aware of it, it is the status quo, until suddenly it is gone, only then do you notice it.  Does a deep sea fish notice the pressure of all that ocean crushing down on it, pressure that would instantly kill a regular human?  Probably, not, it just swims along happily not noticing because it has never known different even though it&amp;#039;s body must constantly push back against all that amazing pressure.  Just because you don&amp;#039;t notice something does not mean it is not there.  So yes, would not surprise me of creating formations requires effort but that was not my argument.  My statement was that at least OBSERVING formations involves unsatisfactoriness and so an ELEMENT of being tiring/work.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many thoughts &amp;#034;pop&amp;#034; into the mind that we do not even remotely ask for, much less intend to create, by effort , to fabricate.  I can&amp;#039;t even dare say they were pre-fabricated, since this is all an impersonal process going on before and/or below the threshhold of consciousness.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;You can be sure then that you had NOTHING to do with those formations, did not ask for them in any way and were not involved in any way, assuming also that you also have a clear definition of what is &amp;#039;you?&amp;#039;  Seems to me, if you were to make a statement that you are not involved, you would need to know two things, both what is NOT you but also what IS you.  Do you know what is you and what that you is doing at all times?  I hear a lot of Buddhist statements about what is not you but I don&amp;#039;t hear much about what is you.  ;-)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;So to reply to earlier post, upon further review, in my opinion, Fabricate is not synonymous with Formation, and in fact, might very well be mis-leading and detrimental to one&amp;#039;s spiritual progress to think in this fashion.  It seems that it will lead one to think they are the owner of their thoughts and thus one might cling to these mental formations, &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I would argue that thinking you are the owner and clinging are two separate issues that are often but not always associated.  I am the owner of that pebble on my doorstep but I am not clinging to it as far as I can tell, and even if you do not consider yourself the owner, you can still have attachment to something and want it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yes, there is an element of tiringness to them , but when watching the mind formations seem to arise effortlessly, of their own accord, once they are there , &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;SEEM to is the word used.  But I am not ready to put that down as an assumption that I will take as fact.  Lots of things seem one way from one perspective and another way from another perspective.  Therefore, it seems easier for me to not get too attached to any one perspective if I want to be able to look at things from more than one perspective.  ;-)&lt;br /&gt;-Eva  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 18:44:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582946</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T18:44:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582863</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jen Pearly:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Besides, Sir Dream Walker is out beyond yon wine country, walking the panoramic perspective of more luminous planes with fairy-catching network well in hand. In short, he won&amp;#039;t bite Sawfoot&amp;#039;s line.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What remains is the moderator warning to sawfoot_.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He presents good counter-balance points of view, in an often funny way, which is fine.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;He also contributes attention-seeking jibes, which will not be tolerated, regardless of how often he tests whether this is still true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any further discussion of this particular DhO Sheriff&amp;#039;s intervention will go into its own thread, or into a PM to me. Thank you all for your attention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 16:19:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582863</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T16:19:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582849</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Florian to Sawfoot:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;sawfoot_, you&amp;#039;re not living up to your own standards with this trolling attempt, even if you got my attention.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Thing is, you&amp;#039;ll bring the grammar constables down on us if you can&amp;#039;t keep your archaic English straight! It&amp;#039;s &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;I do - thou dost (or doest) - he doth (or doeth)&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Besides, Sir Dream Walker is out beyond yon wine country, walking the panoramic perspective of more luminous planes with fairy-catching network well in hand. In short, he won&amp;#039;t bite Sawfoot&amp;#039;s line.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 15:53:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582849</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T15:53:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582828</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;sawfoot _:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thank you so much for finally answering the question from your direct experience. I find your phenomenological breakdown somewhat lacking. &lt;br /&gt;Perhaps if I bold the next word you could continue your breakdown.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Please Describe Your &lt;strong&gt;High-EQ&lt;/strong&gt; &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your contributions to the thread. You seem to have so much to share intelectually.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;~Dna na na na na na na, watch out, here comes the Dharma Police!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In light of your valiancy, and in recognition of your excellence in proponency of the great art of sarcasm, I doth proclaim you Sir Dream Walker, Protector of the Realm of Non-Lacking Non-Intellectual Phenomenological Experience Sharing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sir Dream walker, I suggest you apply for a DhO moderator postition forthwith. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;sawfoot_, you&amp;#039;re not living up to your own standards with this trolling attempt, even if you got my attention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thing is, you&amp;#039;ll bring the grammar constables down on us if you can&amp;#039;t keep your archaic English straight! It&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;I do - thou dost (or doest) - he doth (or doeth)&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Take a break, please.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers&lt;br /&gt;Florian, the DhO&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dsalsrv02&amp;#x2e;uchicago&amp;#x2e;edu&amp;#x2f;cgi-bin&amp;#x2f;philologic&amp;#x2f;getobject&amp;#x2e;pl&amp;#x3f;c&amp;#x2e;1&amp;#x3a;1&amp;#x3a;1229&amp;#x2e;pali"&gt;guttika&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 15:37:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582828</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T15:37:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582381</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thank you so much for finally answering the question from your direct experience. I find your phenomenological breakdown somewhat lacking. &lt;br /&gt;Perhaps if I bold the next word you could continue your breakdown.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Please Describe Your &lt;strong&gt;High-EQ&lt;/strong&gt; &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your contributions to the thread. You seem to have so much to share intelectually.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;~Dna na na na na na na, watch out, here comes the Dharma Police!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In light of your valiancy, and in recognition of your excellence in proponency of the great art of sarcasm, I doth proclaim you Sir Dream Walker, Protector of the Realm of Non-Lacking Non-Intellectual Phenomenological Experience Sharing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sir Dream walker, I suggest you apply for a DhO moderator postition forthwith. </description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 07:11:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582381</guid> <dc:creator>sawfoot _</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T07:11:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580953</link> <description>Further observations:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some of the exercises appear silly at first, such as moving the jaw to sides.. but Willis is not joking when he talks about defenses. I don&amp;#039;t know why for me it feels more comfortable to have the mouth nearly closed. I open it and then it always comes back to teeth nearly touching. So I stick two fingers in there as he suggests, to stop my mouth from closing up all the time, and breathe and notice light twiching or spasms in the muscles there.. and then this big pain / sadness feeling comes up and tears start rolling down my face. This happened several times now. Usually in the 2nd half of the 1 hour session as it takes a while for the belly and throat to start to relax.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This feeling of sadness/pain (hard to describe) came up at the end of my 10 day retreats and I remember it coming up occasionally during periods of self enquiry.. so never without particular effort and presence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is interesting. I wonder how such pain will resolve itself. Maybe it is really a kind of charge that would stay there indefinitely unless it &amp;#034;surfaces&amp;#034; and exhauts itself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Although I don&amp;#039;t feel like the forehead exercises do anything special nor do I feel any particular pain there, I also experience these spasms/twitches of the eyelids during the exercises. It feels like a tension, or a weight above the eyes and they want to close.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Overall I think there is more relaxation. My afternoons are less intense now. In fact last week a couple afternoons I didn&amp;#039;t notice any particularly unpleasant sensations.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 17:18:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580953</guid> <dc:creator>faB</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T17:18:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579001</link> <description>You are a blessing...</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2014 04:45:37 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579001</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-10T04:45:37Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578987</link> <description>No. Sorry it is confusing. It is a difficult topic that even Daniel struggles to convey (although I think you all are going to be really, really happy to read his expanded treatment of this topic when the new book appears). Anyway, no, there is no such thing as formations that happen only in High Equanimity. It is simply that in this stage they often become observable as such. You observe them from within them. Really, formations/fabrications are always what is occurring, always. So you cannot &amp;#034;abandon&amp;#034; them, either, unless you think you can just decide to abandon reality. The only time they stop is during fruition, because that is when all of reality stops. High EQ is just when they become clear as such, but not all people notice them at all. It is okay if you don&amp;#039;t. You can &amp;#034;do&amp;#034; Equanimity, or it can do you, anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They aren&amp;#039;t just an object &amp;#034;over there.&amp;#034; Rather, they involve the space that encompasses any object you observe, plus the observer. So when you observe them, it is as if you are observing objects &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; observer as objects &amp;#034;over there,&amp;#034; which raises the question who or what is still observing even that. They are huge swaths of all-inclusive &amp;#034;reality.&amp;#034; So, really, my blooming nimattas are incomplete considerations because a formation involves them, the senses, the space in and outside the blooms, time, and the &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; who is supposedly observing. At least, this is pretty much how Daniel describes them. You experience them as one flowing whole rather than a collection of disparate parts. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is an interesting &lt;a href="discussionhttp&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;accesstoinsight&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;lib&amp;#x2f;authors&amp;#x2f;bodhi&amp;#x2f;bps-essay_43&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;discussion&lt;/a&gt; that says there isn&amp;#039;t a good English translation for &lt;em&gt;sankaras&lt;/em&gt;. </description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2014 04:31:22 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578987</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-10T04:31:22Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578356</link> <description>Hi Eva, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, are these the types of High-EQ formations looking to be described??  I am about to give up, there really are too many formations to list, each mind moment is a different formation, and each mind has different mind moment, this combined with that there are the six sense base, and millions of combinations and complexiteies for those, there would literally be billions and billions of individual formations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps, one can only suspect that a High-EQ formation is a more complex type of formation?(quantum event consciousness)  Or the more simple type, (binary event consciousness).  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I still don&amp;#039;t know the definition of High-EQ formations, thus can not describe any, and perhaps, I just don&amp;#039;t have them.  Perhaps I am way out of my league here and am better off and more peaceful not trying to figure this one out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;May you have peace, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2014 16:04:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578356</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-08T16:04:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578341</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eva M Nie:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The mind does not require effort to fabricate, but does require delusion(ignorance) to fabricate, as you have also stated earlier, that fabrications do arise from ignorance.  And to sum up, the self, if taken as a concept that stems from ignorance and delusion, is also just a fabrication.  And if it is just a fabrication, why all the fuss and bother of taking a mere fabrication so seriously, as we mostly do as humanity.  In essence we are the fabricators of our own suffering.  Let go of the fabrications, let go of dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who watches the Watchmen?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Seems to me if fabrications always contain unsatisfactoriness/dukkha, then instinct would suggest there is an element of effort/tiringness to them.  &lt;br /&gt;-Eva&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hiya, Eva and all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Fabricatons and effort:  Merriam Webster, To Fabricate is to invent or create something.  Effort as something produced by work, produced by serious trying.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So I will stand my ground and say this is an incorrect view, perhaps contrary to any other humans who profess otherwise, famous or not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To further explain, Formations, when observed arise on their own, they are tiring and do require energy to deal with them , and/or to sustain them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To view Formations as Fabrications that require effort, is to say that Formations arise due to Effort, and this is just not so, not only not so, but mis-leading to see reality as it is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example when one meditates, a mental formation will arise, did you &amp;#034;create&amp;#034; the thought through effort, or did the thought arise and then &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; were aware of it.  This is something everyone has to see for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many thoughts &amp;#034;pop&amp;#034; into the mind that we do not even remotely ask for, much less intend to create, by effort , to fabricate.  I can&amp;#039;t even dare say they were pre-fabricated, since this is all an impersonal process going on before and/or below the threshhold of consciousness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to reply to earlier post, upon further review, in my opinion, Fabricate is not synonymous with Formation, and in fact, might very well be mis-leading and detrimental to one&amp;#039;s spiritual progress to think in this fashion.  It seems that it will lead one to think they are the owner of their thoughts and thus one might cling to these mental formations, and perhaps even devlop cravings for more and more wilder, lucrative, and bizarre formations, which are simply mental phenomenon.  And as such , it seems, that Mental Formations, in the end are no more that imperfections of insight.  And if mental formations are developed and cultivated will only lead to supporting the ego.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yes, there is an element of tiringness to them , but when watching the mind formations seem to arise effortlessly, of their own accord, once they are there , I suppose, then one could maintain the formation which requires effort, striving and energy.  Which sounds more like the sustaining of dukkha as comapred to the cessation of dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, thanks for discussing this with me, please don&amp;#039;t think I am lecturing, I am just trying to share my experience, and have learned and continue to learn from everyone&amp;#039;s posts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wishing everyone an awesome day!  Even if we have to fabricate it....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:55:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578341</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-08T15:55:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578179</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hey everyone:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess what is perplexing me with &amp;#034;Please describe your high-eq &amp;#034;formations&amp;#034;, is that I thought the goal is be free from the burden of these formations, so I always have practiced to let go and abandon formations if they arose, and kept letting go and abandoning formations earlier and earlier, both within meditation and during daily activities.  What comes into the mind is just dismissed forthright, why give any of it special attention?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Well for starters, it&amp;#039;s hard to practice abandoning something if you don&amp;#039;t know what it is that you are supposed to be abandoning.  Therefore a description of the thing to be abandoned would be helpful.  And I have to say, after reading this thread, I feel only slightly closer to understanding.  But so far, this is what I have gotten out of it, feel free to correct any inaccurate parts.  There was some talk of formations being actions instead of things.  IMO if there is an act of fabricating, then there would also be a thing/experience fabricated.  I still have some confusion as to if the action of fabricating and the outcome of the fabrication are all the same unit known as &amp;#039;formations.&amp;#039;  And speaking of &amp;#039;fabrications,&amp;#039; apparently that is a synonym for &amp;#039;formations,&amp;#039; yes?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now for the phenomenology aspect (look see see, here I am getting on topic for once!), I do sometimes see something like the &amp;#039;blooming nimittas&amp;#039; mentioned when I am in a certain kind of relaxed mood.  Although I have been curious about them and suspected it has something to do with brain activity, I had not considered them visual representations of &amp;#039;formations.&amp;#039;  They take several seconds to bloom and then pass. I have sometimes seen those while sitting in a room looking at a wall as others walked around, so I know that they really take seconds, not that my perception of time has slowed or anything.  I am a little suspicious about those being formations, but could potentially be convinced otherwise.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I can also see a kind of visual flickering in my visual field if I think about it for a sec.  That one doesn&amp;#039;t take much concentration and is reliable for me to produce.  But those are super fast flickers, milliseconds instead of seconds.  Is each flicker supposed to be a formation?  I think I&amp;#039;ve asked this before but no one answered.  What, no one wants to go out on a limb?  I can also notice if I concentrate, a sort of graininess to perception.  I can see the gappiness, like if you concentrate on breath, it can feel sort of choppy or gappy, as if you were not actually breathing smoothly but had choppy breath, which I have read is kind of the thing we are talking about, yes?  Those are also really fast paced like milliseconds.  It&amp;#039;s about the same flicker rate as preOBE vibrations, although I think with those as my mind travels into inner space (or whatever you want to call it), they seem to slow down but I think there what happens is perception of elapsed time changes, similar to how you can dream an hour&amp;#039;s worth of dream and then wake up to to find only 60 seconds of time have passed.  But anyway, so with the pre OBE vibrations, I&amp;#039;ve noticed that as I journey back towards waking state, the rate of the vibrations speeds and seems to recede from easy perception at the same time, but if you are in the right mood, you can still kind of feel it down in there as a kind of a buzz feeling deep inside even after you wake up.  The flicker of the waking state OBE vibrations and the visual flickers and the gap rate of the breathing, seem a similar rate, so I was thinking those are ways fo seeing the formations, but can&amp;#039;t be sure seeing as how no one seems to agree on much!  ;-P&lt;br /&gt;-Eva  </description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2014 05:00:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578179</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-08T05:00:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578173</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The mind does not require effort to fabricate, but does require delusion(ignorance) to fabricate, as you have also stated earlier, that fabrications do arise from ignorance.  And to sum up, the self, if taken as a concept that stems from ignorance and delusion, is also just a fabrication.  And if it is just a fabrication, why all the fuss and bother of taking a mere fabrication so seriously, as we mostly do as humanity.  In essence we are the fabricators of our own suffering.  Let go of the fabrications, let go of dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who watches the Watchmen?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Seems to me if fabrications always contain unsatisfactoriness/dukkha, then instinct would suggest there is an element of effort/tiringness to them.  &lt;br /&gt;-Eva</description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2014 04:07:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578173</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-08T04:07:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578168</link> <description>Hey everyone:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess what is perplexing me with &amp;#034;Please describe your high-eq &amp;#034;formations&amp;#034;, is that I thought the goal is be free from the burden of these formations, so I always have practiced to let go and abandon formations if they arose, and kept letting go and abandoning formations earlier and earlier, both within meditation and during daily activities.  What comes into the mind is just dismissed forthright, why give any of it special attention?  So all I can really say is it is much more pleasant to be without mental formations.  To be sure, the mind can make all kinds of pleasant and unpleasant formations but to become involved with the formations is opposite of letting them go. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I can understand equanimity towards all formations, but I guess I don&amp;#039;t get what is a High- EQ Formation?  Can anyone explain this, or is it needed?  Is it not better to abandon them all?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metta&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2014 03:46:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578168</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-08T03:46:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578072</link> <description>Okay, hey, everyone. I&amp;#039;m getting a little dizzy from moving back and forth between these two threads. So as DreamWalker has valiantly been trying to do, I hereby return this thread to its original topic: &lt;strong&gt;Please describe your experience of your High-EQ &amp;#034;formations.&amp;#034;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is not that the other conversation is somehow an unproductive one necessarily; it is just that this same conversation is going on over in dat Buddha-field&amp;#039;s thread already. This current thread is dedicated to discussion around the phenomenology that Daniel Ingram, in MCTB, calls &amp;#034;formations&amp;#034; and brings up as a topic only within the chapter on the insight stage called &lt;em&gt;Knowledge of Equanimity Concerning Formations&lt;/em&gt;, specifically where he talks about High EQ, specifically right before one of the Three Doors to cessation presents.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;My goal in starting this thread was to gain some advanced practictioners&amp;#039; experiences in their own words&lt;/strong&gt; so that, to the extent that their experiences seem to match Daniel&amp;#039;s, I can query or edit to make Daniel&amp;#039;s descriptions as clear as possible (although about such a difficult topic). And to the extent that no one&amp;#039;s experience seems to match Daniel&amp;#039;s descriptions at all, I can discuss that fact with Daniel, too. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You see, in my view, it wasn&amp;#039;t always clear in MCTB when Daniel was describing an experience that was required to be just so to be an attainment, and when he was describing simply his own way of experiencing &amp;#034;formations&amp;#034; or the &amp;#034;Three Doors&amp;#034; or whatever. It is his book, and I&amp;#039;m fine with his apparent view that he simply happens to be very talented at seeing all the fine details of presentations that others at least partially miss, but I think it would help readers if he at least said that much and accounted somehow for all the missed perceptions of quite advanced practitioners. And since he dwells on what he has perceived for so long of a stretch in MCTB1, there is the tacit implication that his perceptions are the way it &amp;#034;really&amp;#034; is. Prepathers will take his description to heart that way. I just want him to unpack all this a bit and explain what&amp;#039;s behind his going on so long about the details of those perceptions, especially if not a single other person known to any of us has perceived things similarly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BTW, glancing ahead a bit in the draft MCTB2, I see what I think is Daniel&amp;#039;s new discussion along these lines, saying that he doesn&amp;#039;t know why he sees the phenomena so clearly, that is seems to be just a trait of his.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Make sense? Concerning this thread, the goal is to help make MCTB2 as forthcoming and clear as possible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Love,&lt;br /&gt;Jenny&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;PS: For those who want to continue to discuss the &amp;#034;lessons&amp;#034; of the Dark Night and the fabrication/formation ontologies, please jump over to dat &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5368291"&gt;Buddha-field&amp;#039;s original post and thread&lt;/a&gt;, where I&amp;#039;m there with bells and whistles, if not &lt;em&gt;Wings&lt;/em&gt;, quite on, ha.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 22:50:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5578072</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T22:50:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577894</link> <description>Hi Daniel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m gonna be really prosaic here. ( I haven&amp;#039;t read all the comments yet so maybe someone else pointed this out already).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just in relation to your book cover, seeing as you&amp;#039;re giving it exactly the same title but putting &lt;u&gt;Second Edition&lt;/u&gt;, it suggests to me that it&amp;#039;s the same book as the first -  just a revised version, maybe with an additional chapter. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Woudn&amp;#039;t it be better to write &lt;strong&gt;BOOK 2?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;Piers&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;BTW how could anyone get &lt;em&gt;annoyed&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt; by the design of the original cover? It&amp;#039;s just a book cover. I don&amp;#039;t have a copy of it on my shelf anymore (I gave it away) and can&amp;#039;t even particularly remember it. There&amp;#039;s more serious crap to get worked up in life about. But that&amp;#039;s just me!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 09:40:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577894</guid> <dc:creator>Piers M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T09:40:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Birthing MCTB2</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577882</link> <description>I can barely contain myself because I&amp;#039;ve seen what Daniel may decide to do about the front cover and other matters. But I am &lt;em&gt;not not not&lt;/em&gt; going to give out spoilers! Shhhhhhh!!!!! &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/cool.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I will say this, because I can&amp;#039;t help it: MCTB2 is going to blow people&amp;#039;s minds wide open (in a good way). I think this edition will be a top, timeless dharma classic where MCTB1, though a niche or &amp;#034;cult&amp;#034; classic, only approximated and hinted at such potential.&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/in_love.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, I haven&amp;#039;t grappled with the structure/sequencing or the fact that it is more than 500 pages, but we&amp;#039;ll deal with that later, somehow. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/wacko.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 08:42:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577882</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T08:42:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577800</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;dat Buddha-field, &lt;br /&gt;The topic is &amp;#034;Please Describe &lt;strong&gt;Your &lt;/strong&gt;High-EQ &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;If you have been in High EQ and expereinced formations would you please be so kind as to describe the expereince phenomenologically.&lt;br /&gt;Though you are very well read, direct expereince not an intelectual understanding of a subject is what is being asked here.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi D, &lt;br /&gt;So to directly answer your question, &lt;strong&gt;I experience formations as stress&lt;/strong&gt;.  The stress around equanimity is extremeley subtle!    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Thank you so much for finally answering the question from your direct experience. I find your phenomenological breakdown somewhat lacking. &lt;br /&gt;Perhaps if I bold the next word you could continue your breakdown.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;Please Describe Your &lt;strong&gt;High-EQ&lt;/strong&gt; &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for your contributions to the thread. You seem to have so much to share intelectually.&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 04:45:06 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577800</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T04:45:06Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577791</link> <description>Hi Jen, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Nice post, I&amp;#039;m glad to see your understanding of formations/fabrications is quickly evolving.  Thanissaro Bhikku and Pa Auk Sayadaw are two of the teachers who have been extremely influential for me.  I think we&amp;#039;re in a better position to hear each other now, so let&amp;#039;s just clear up a few last things.  I hope this won&amp;#039;t be too painful... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;What I have been trying, so far without success, to convey to dat Buddha-field is that, despite the way jhana and vipassana can be combined in a single sit, and really should be according to the Thai Forest teachers, there remains a difference between &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;states of jhana&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; and &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;stages of insight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;. This difference exists just as much according to TB as according to Daniel M. Ingram. Your apparent confusion, dat Buddha-field (Zach), is in thinking that each separate stage of insight progess involves a will-to-release, or else one remains &amp;#034;stuck.&amp;#034; This is simply not so. When release really does come, it comes &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;automatically&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;. And it comes in a specific stage, at the end of the path: High Equanimity nana. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt; Yes there is a difference between states of jhana and stages of insight.  That&amp;#039;s why you can just be in 1st or 4th jhana, OR you can go through the stages of insight while being in a soft 4th samatha jhana.   I wasn&amp;#039;t saying people get stuck in Dukkha nanas because they don&amp;#039;t incline towards release.  I was saying they get stuck because they start identifying with their suffering and not looking at the formations present in it.  By your logic, they could never have got past mind&amp;amp;body if they had never inclined towards release, and that wasn&amp;#039;t what I was saying.   The main point was stop identifying with the suffering and look at your mind.  Then we started getting really technical about formations.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Being technical pre-supposes that we&amp;#039;re doing actual mindfulness of dukkhanana fabrications and not just sitting there suffering, or not even meditating at all.  So, if we take that assumption, inclining the mind toward release is helpful.  But it&amp;#039;s just a small little subtle thing we do to help look for the stress.  TB says a million times and one look for the stress, look for the stress.  Is that not inclining the mind?  Then you discern it and release occurs.  Was that then automatic, or were you trying in looking for the stress?  It seems semantic at that point.  Well here&amp;#039;s Pa Auk Sayadaw on the issue (Knowing &amp;amp; Seeing, Pg. 235).  If you think TB contradicts this, then I would be really interested in seeing a source or quote... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: PaliPalatino"&gt;After these insight-knowledges, as you continue to discern the passing-away and vanishing of each formation, with a wish for release from them, you will find that eventually all formations cease. Your mind sees directly, and is fully aware of the unformed Nibbàna as object. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Jen:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;So, dat Buddha-field, when on your &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x3f;p_p_id&amp;#x3d;19&amp;#x26;p_p_lifecycle&amp;#x3d;0&amp;#x26;p_p_state&amp;#x3d;normal&amp;#x26;p_p_mode&amp;#x3d;view&amp;#x26;p_p_col_id&amp;#x3d;column-1&amp;#x26;p_p_col_count&amp;#x3d;1&amp;#x26;_19_parentMessageId&amp;#x3d;5577744&amp;#x26;_19_threadId&amp;#x3d;5573051&amp;#x26;_19_mbCategoryId&amp;#x3d;11919&amp;#x26;_19_redirect&amp;#x3d;http&amp;#x25;3A&amp;#x25;2F&amp;#x25;2Fwww&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x25;2Fweb&amp;#x25;2Fguest&amp;#x25;2Fdiscussion&amp;#x25;2F-&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fmessage&amp;#x25;2F5573050&amp;#x26;_19_struts_action&amp;#x3d;&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fedit_message"&gt;other thread&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; you say that people stay stuck in the Dark Night because they don&amp;#039;t  learn its lesson, and you say its lesson is that they should incline toward release right then and there, I say this: No, that is not at all the &amp;#034;lesson&amp;#034; of the Dark Night. The knowledge of suffering is simply discernment of the phenomenology of suffering, its three characteristics. Release is not possible in DN territory. If it were, then it would not be the DN at all, and you would have moved on without learning the knowledge of suffering--which is to say, you would &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;not&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; have moved on at all. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;     &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The lesson is to see how your mind fabricates fear, misery, disgust, etc.  You&amp;#039;re not going to get this until you get over the notion that the only point of the dark night is to sit there suffering for a while.  That&amp;#039;s our impasse.  You&amp;#039;re just dead wrong.  Sorry.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In thinking about this, you might ask yourself why doesn&amp;#039;t Thanissaro Bhikku warn everyone about the dark night?  Thanissaro Bhikku teaches discernment around all the usual sutric stuff.  The Burmese insight tradition teaches from the Visuddhimagga.  In the Vissudhimagga they added all this extra stuff.  Concentration practice piled on 1000 different kasina practices, body parts meditation, etc.  Insight practice got all these new &lt;strong&gt;exercises&lt;/strong&gt; in addition to the usual sutric stuff.  They added a bunch of practices for discernment around formations, called the stages of insight.  These contemplations are designed with a very specific purpose in mind, to help &amp;#034;Purify Knowledge &amp;amp; Vision&amp;#034; as the Visuddhimagga states.  Yet these stages of insight don&amp;#039;t exist in the Thai Forest tradition.  Why not?  They&amp;#039;re not essential.  Yea if you do it right it leads to release, but so does TB&amp;#039;s instruction. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And just to reiterate one last time, people get stuck in the DN because they lose track of insight practice.  Insight practice is not the practice of sitting there wallowing.   </description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 04:00:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577791</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T04:00:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577783</link> <description>Hi Jen,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, your post I can agree with, and TB, (he is kinda sly) basically, skillfully using the fabrications(since as humans that&amp;#039;s all we got) to set up the causes and conditions for the un-fabricated to unfold.  (letting go of fabrications = unfabricated, unfabricated = no dukkha) .  Also as the Buddha put it, we HAVE to use the raft (skillful use of fabrications) to get across the river, but once on the other side, we don&amp;#039;t need to carry around the raft, for even the raft (the path) was fabrications.  Paradox.  But, cool. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sorry to have hijacked your thread, (with you) haha,  But, for me this is all needed for me to understand What High-EQ formations actually are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have been looking, it seems that Formations are synomonous with Samskaras, sanskara, fabrications.  And can be Mental Formation, Physical Formations, and/or Verbal Formations.  Or as The High-EQ formations , as maybe a new definition is needed, a new class of formation, being a formation of all six sense bases at once?  If that is true, a High-Eq formation would be akin to : Meditating along, in High EQ, and one &amp;#034;pops&amp;#034; into a 3d (six sense base &amp;#034;scene&amp;#034;) like a quick lucid dream, then views it with detached High Equanimity.  Which also could be rightly or wrongly viewed as Past life experiences, OOBE&amp;#039;s, Lucid dreams, Unconscious archetypical dreams, Remote viewing, mental formations from the Universal Consciousness, etc.  Or simply labeled as Formations, become aware of, and let go of, thus unravelling and dissipating their grasp upon the individual&amp;#039;s mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess I am having trouble with your question, about High EQ formations, because it is hard to get a definition for High EQ formations, maybe it&amp;#039;s big secret or something....  Shhhhhh......&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Maybe there are many more layers to the mind that have to be delved into and rescued from ignorance, maybe layers of mind that aren&amp;#039;t even aware there is a consciousness, or an external reality beside the mind&amp;#039;s internal formations.  Kind of an unconscious and unaware situation of mind.  Where&amp;#039;s Carl Jung now??&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway thanks for clarifying TB&amp;#039;s stuff, maybe I should pull the stick out of my keester now, and learn to be nicer.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metta, (to all)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;p.s. (if I can&amp;#039;t be nicer I&amp;#039;ll probably need to ramp up time breathing my feets)</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 03:57:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577783</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T03:57:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577744</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;Hi Psi Phi and dat Buddha-field:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It so happens that I&amp;#039;ve currently been reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;The Wings to Awakening&lt;/em&gt;, which is one of the most brilliant dharma books I&amp;#039;ve ever laid eyes on. It is extremely clear, but it is also not an easy read, simply because the Buddha&amp;#039;s system is complex, with many layers of subtlety and feedback loops. In fact TB incorporates not only the ancient analogies in this work, which is both a translation of and commentary on core teachings from the Pali Canon, but postmodern analogies with chaos theory, among other things. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, I&amp;#039;m not only a fan of TB, but a devotee of his meditation methods. His body of work on how to meditate basically is my meditation practice. I do not &amp;#034;note&amp;#034; after the Burmese tradition and never have. Interestingly, TB, in this work I&amp;#039;m currently reading talks about noting practice as one currently popular in the West, and he sees it as a fine practice. He talks about investigating the Three Characteristics, and there are a number of meditation methods, or &amp;#034;themes,&amp;#034; for doing so. I happen to follow TB&amp;#039;s breath meditation instructions. I also do not treat samatha and insight as completely separate practices; instead, after the manner of TB, in my practice I enter jhana and then pull a bit out and above whatever jhana I enter to &amp;#034;investigate&amp;#034; the three characteristics of its factors, those characteristics being (1) inconstancy/instability, (2) unsatisfactoriness, and (3) insubstantiality (not self).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I have been trying, so far without success, to convey to dat Buddha-field is that, despite the way jhana and vipassana can be combined in a single sit, and really should be according to the Thai Forest teachers, there remains a difference between &lt;em&gt;states of jhana&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;stages of insight&lt;/em&gt;. This difference exists just as much according to TB as according to Daniel M. Ingram. Your apparent confusion, dat Buddha-field (Zach), is in thinking that each separate stage of insight progess involves a will-to-release, or else one remains &amp;#034;stuck.&amp;#034; This is simply not so. When release really does come, it comes &lt;em&gt;automatically&lt;/em&gt;. And it comes in a specific stage, at the end of the path: High Equanimity nana. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, dat Buddha-field, when on your &lt;a href=""&gt;&lt;strong&gt;other thread&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt; you say that people stay stuck in the Dark Night because they don&amp;#039;t  learn its lesson, and you say its lesson is that they should incline toward release right then and there, I say this: No, that is not at all the &amp;#034;lesson&amp;#034; of the Dark Night. The knowledge of suffering is simply discernment of the phenomenology of suffering, its three characteristics. Release is not possible in DN territory. If it were, then it would not be the DN at all, and you would have moved on without learning the knowledge of suffering--which is to say, you would &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; have moved on at all. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Psi Phi to dat Buddha-field:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;So , you seem to be asking a tricky, entrapping,  or mis-leading question, implying that I feel craving to attach self to fabrications and what-not.  When actually what I was pointing to was that the self concept and the fabrication concept both stem from not seeing the true impersonal nature of phenomenon.  So I was basically refuting the teaching that the mind requires effort to think and fabricate, for, from my view thinking and fabrication is due to cause and effect of an impersonal nature, and that, from my view:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;The mind does not require effort to fabricate, but does require delusion(ignorance) to fabricate, as you have also stated earlier, that fabrications do arise from ignorance.  And to sum up, the self, if taken as a concept that stems from ignorance and delusion, is also just a fabrication.  And if it is just a fabrication, why all the fuss and bother of taking a mere fabrication so seriously, as we mostly do as humanity.  In essence we are the fabricators of our own suffering.  Let go of the fabrications, let go of dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now this discussion is going to get wild. Psi Phi, yes, fabrications/formations are, as MCTB1 says, &amp;#034;what, from a high dharma point of view, is happening all the time.&amp;#034; In other words, where there is dependent co-arising, there is fabrication/formations. What is very subtle and complex about TB&amp;#039;s--&lt;em&gt;which is to say, the Buddha&amp;#039;s&lt;/em&gt;--treatment of all this is that, while dependent co-arising involves the entire cosmos, phenomenology, and all of time, in addition to involving our individual personalities and wills, so to speak, the noble &lt;em&gt;path does consist of Right Fabrication&lt;/em&gt;, if you will. So long as we have to participate in fabrication, and we do, we should do so skillfully. And here is a tasty morsel of things to come: Daniel connects insight in this way, in MCTB2, with the Four Bases of the Powers (ie, Magick)--meaning that, as I read him, much like Thanissaro, he addresses the necessity of the individual will (Power) into arriving at release!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now, problematically, Dat Buddha-field, on the thread he started about &lt;a href=""&gt;&lt;strong&gt;how people remain stuck in the Dark Night&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt; because they are not inclining to release while there, seems to be mistaking path (stages) for the end of the path (release). When one is in the Dark Night, for example, one is discerning the characteristics of suffering in its many combinations of the aggregates. But &amp;#034;release&amp;#034; absolutely does not occur in the stage of the path known as Dark Night, Knowledges of Suffering, dukka nanas. On this level of path, release from fabrication/formation is not available at each moment; only discernment of the three characteristics of phenomena of that stage is available in the present moment of the stages. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When discernment of the three characteristics of the sufferings (Fear, Misery, Disgust) is sufficiently thorough, EQ emerges, and when discernment of the three characteristics is discerned even in EQ--thence &lt;em&gt;cessation&lt;/em&gt;. Cessation is &lt;em&gt;automatic&lt;/em&gt;. It is not fabricated--not by any self or otherwise. It cannot be willed from the place of Equanimity. It certainly cannot be willed from the place of the Dark Night. In fact, it is an oft-repeated truism on this forum that cessation/path/fruition comes during moments in High EQ that one is not even on the lookout for release. It arises from a kind of forgetfulness of all except the formation/fabrication one is currently investigating from within it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Thanissaro Bhikkhu, from &lt;em&gt;The Wings to Awakening&lt;/em&gt;:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thus, for instance, in the practice of meditation, as with any skill, it is important not to focus desire too strongly on the results one hopes to get , for that would interfere with the minds&amp;#039; ability to to focus on giving rise to the causes leading to those results. If, instead, one focuses desire on putting the causes in proper order in the present moment, desire becomes an indispensable part of the process of mastery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;These qualities [of desire, exertion, effortful/skillful fabrication] are necessary for anyone who pursues a path, but &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;are automatically abandoned on reaching the goal at the path&amp;#039;s end&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;. The image of the path [incremental stages of insight] is important here, for it carries important implications. First, the path is not the goal; it is simply the way there, just as the road to the Grand Canyon should not be confused with the Grand Canyon itself. Even though many stretches of the road bear no resemblance to the Grand Canyon, that does not mean that the road does not lead there, &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;just as neither the road to the Grand Canyon nor the act of walking to the Grand Canyon can cause the Grand Canyon to be&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;. &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;The goal at the end of the Buddhist path is unfabricated, so no amount of desire or effort can bring it into being&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;. Nevertheless, the path to the goal is a fabricated process, and in that process desire, effort, intent, and discrimination all have an important role to play, just as the effort of walkng plays a role in arriving at the Grand Canyon.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Here is TB again, and this is pretty heavy-duty stuff; everyone should read this book:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;The fluid complexity of dependent co-arising means that it is inherently unstable, and thus stressful and not-self. Although some non-Theravadin Buddhist texts insist that happiness can be found by abandoning one&amp;#039;s smaller, separate identity and embracing the interconnected identity of all interdependent things, this teaching cannot be found in the Pali Canon. The instability of conditioned processes means that they can never provide a dependable basis for happiness. The only true basis for happiness is the Unfabricated. The Pali discourses are quite clear on the point that the fabricated and Unfabricated realms are radically separate. In MN 1 the Buddha strongly criticizes a group of monks who tried to develop a theory whereby the fabricated was derived out of the Unfabricated or somehow lay within it. Stress, he says, is inherent in the interdependent nature of conditioned phenomena, while the Unfabricated is totally free from stress. Stress could not possibly be produced by absolute freedom from stress. Because the nature of conditioning is such that causes are in turn influenced by their effects, the Unfabricated could not itself funtion as a cause for anything. &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;The only way the Unfabricated can be experienced is by skillfully using fabricated, condition processes . . . to unravel the network of fabricated, conditioned processes (dependent co-arising) from within&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The entire pattern of dependent co-arising is a map showing how the different aggregates group, disband, and regroup in one another&amp;#039;s presence in a variety of configurations, giving rise to stress and to the cosmos at large. . . . One of the the most basic features of the Buddha&amp;#039;s teachings is his confirmation that the knowable cosmos, composed of old kamma, is made up of the same factors that make up the personality; and that the interaction of the aggregates, as immediately present to awareness in the here and now, is the same process that underlies the functioning of the knowable cosmos as a whole. As a result, descriptions of dependent co-arising slip easily back and forth between two time scales--events in the present moment and events over the vast cycle of time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;This is where I think dat Buddha-field is coming from, but with the one mistaken notion that &lt;em&gt;release&lt;/em&gt; is available before the end of the path; again from TB&amp;#039;s text right after the passage quoted just above:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It is important to remember, though, that the Buddha discovered the principle by observing events in the immediate present, which is where the individual meditator will have to discover them as well, Thus the practice takes the same approach as phenomenology: exploring the processes of conditioning from the inside as they are immediately experienced in the present moment. This is why the pattern of dependent co-arising lists factors of consciousness--such as ignorance, attention, and intention--as prior conditions for the experience of the physical world, for if we take as our frame of reference the world as it is directly experienced--rather than a world conceived somehow as separate from our experience of it--we have to see the processes of the mind as prior to the objects they process.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Whew! And thus I have contributed to the hijacking of my own thread!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 01:39:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577744</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-07T01:39:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577687</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t.  Taking fabrication as self, along with any of the other five aggregates is the thing we do out of ignorance.  Why is the concept of fabrication or intention a concept you feel the need to attach a self to?  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Because, the concept of fabrication arises out of ignorance, ignoring the origination of dukkha, the origination of dukkha being greed, hatred, and delusion, the core root of which is delusion, the delusion of not seeing anicca, dukkha ,and anatta in phenomenon, and when one does not see this, one fabricates concepts, of which the self is also a concept or fabrication.  I do not feel the need to attach the concept of a self to the concept of fabrication, they are both formations/fabrications.  When one uses Vipassana (Insight) one trains to be aware of phenomenon as it is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So , you seem to be asking a tricky, entrapping ,  or mis-leading question , implying that I feel craving to attach self to fabrications and what-not.  When actually what I was pointing to was that the self concept and the fabrication concept both stem from not seeing the true impersonal nature of phenomenon.  So I was basically refuting the teaching that the mind requires effort to think and fabricate,  for , from my view thinking and fabrication is due to cause and effect of an impersonal nature, and that , from my view:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The mind does not require effort to fabricate, but does require delusion(ignorance) to fabricate, as you have also stated earlier, that fabrications do arise from ignorance.  And to sum up, the self, if taken as a concept that stems from ignorance and delusion, is also just a fabrication.  And if it is just a fabrication, why all the fuss and bother of taking a mere fabrication so seriously, as we mostly do as humanity.  In essence we are the fabricators of our own suffering.  Let go of the fabrications, let go of dukkha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who watches the Watchmen?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 20:05:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577687</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T20:05:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577654</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Okay, so the first link is about training to get to access concentration, being aware of sensations as they arise, and letting them be, and letting them dissolve away without feeding them, if one feeds them they turn into fabrications/formations, then on down the chain we go.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it is about developing access concentration, but an important instruction in the Anapanasati Sutta is to &amp;#039;calm bodily fabrications&amp;#039;.  Fabrications don&amp;#039;t suddenly arise from nowhere because you feed them, they&amp;#039;re there already.  They are what you are letting go of as you relax into jhana.  So instead of saying &amp;#039;calm bodily fabrications&amp;#039; the Buddha could also have just said relax the body.  But he didn&amp;#039;t.  He said &amp;#039;calm bodily fabrications&amp;#039; which does mean relax, but he&amp;#039;s also saying something a lot deeper at the same time.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Plus, I do still hear a little of the mind creating reality talk, maybe this is just semantics.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s not semantics.  It&amp;#039;s the point!  The video is called &amp;#039;Fabricating the Present&amp;#039; for a reason.  Though slightly more subtlety would be useful. How about saying the mind fabricates our experience of reality?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;To me the mind is aware of waht has already happened, already occurred..  For insatnce, there is an organ called the Eye, then there is lightwaves hitting the Eye, and there is (almost simutaneously the eye consciousness,   Shortened to Eye, Eye Contact, and Eye Consciousness.  What exactly fabricated what?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you look at the 12 nidanas, you will see that fabrication comes &lt;em&gt;before&lt;/em&gt; consciousness.  This means your experience is already colored before you have objects of consciousness.  This is what I was trying to say in my story about getting sneezed on.  Dukkha is present in your eye consciousness before eye consciousness has an object.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;If there is a fabrication, that supposes a fabricator, there is no fabricator in the equation.   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It doesn&amp;#039;t.  Taking fabrication as self, along with any of the other five aggregates is the thing we do out of ignorance.  Why is the concept of fabrication or intention a concept you feel the need to attach a self to?  </description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 18:17:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577654</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T18:17:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577554</link> <description>Okay, here&amp;#039;s my view again, and yeah ya didn&amp;#039;t ask for it, I was watching the second link video, and to me, it makes more sense to replace the use of his word effort with the word energy, it just makes more sense to me, guess I&amp;#039;m a strange one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically instead of saying &amp;#034;The mind requires effort to think and react.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;  &lt;br /&gt;It makes more sense to me to say &amp;#034;The mind requires energy to think and react.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But, I&amp;#039;m no scholar....</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 05:10:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577554</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T05:10:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577542</link> <description>Okay, so the first link is about training to get to access concentration, being aware of sensations as they arise, and letting them be, and letting them dissolve away without feeding them, if one feeds them they turn into fabrications/formations, then on down the chain we go.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is same as in informal mindfulness, mindfulness while not on the cushion, being aware of what arises in the mind and not letting the mind cling and stick to sensations as they arise, thus letting the mind reside in &amp;#034;bare attention&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anyway, that&amp;#039;s what I got out of his talk.  I&amp;#039;m not sure how or if this relates to High EQ, and if it is the same or not ?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Plus, I do still hear a little of the mind creating reality talk, maybe this is just semantics.  To me the mind is aware of waht has already happened, already occurred..  For insatnce, there is an organ called the Eye, then there is lightwaves hitting the Eye, and there is (almost simutaneously the eye consciousness,   Shortened to Eye, Eye Contact, and Eye Consciousness.  What exactly fabricated what?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Same with thoughts, there is Thought Stimuli, Thought contact, and Thought Consciousness.  If there is a fabrication, that supposes a fabricator, there is no fabricator in the equation.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Though the fabricator delusion comes in later, and that is where dukkha starts.  Then again this may be just semantics in the talking, as we have to use some form of concepts to communicate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And a big Sorry to Jen if this is off-topic....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 04:57:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577542</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T04:57:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577526</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Since you cannot hear me, maybe you will be more inclined to hear Thanissaro Bhikku. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s a short, 9 min clip of him talking about &amp;#039;Fabricating the Present&amp;#039;:  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTR63OwzEpE &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please watch this video for the sake of all beings.  It&amp;#039;s short.  You might notice that his talk of fabrications isn&amp;#039;t about &amp;#039;visual blooms&amp;#039;, but it&amp;#039;s about watching what the mind does and calming it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To answer one of your questions, yes, we indeed use fabrications to attain release from &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; altogether.  This is why the Buddha was a genius.  You replace unskillful &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039;, with skillful &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039;, and eventually you release from &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; altogether.  That&amp;#039;s the hope anyway.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;In other words, you seem to be saying that all this action (formation, dicernment, release) is a matter of &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;a priori &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;intention, and the actual insight stage is just a separate object of this outsider manipulation perspective.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;A priori&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;outsider manipulation perspective&amp;#039; is really not a good way to understand what I&amp;#039;m saying.  But I&amp;#039;ll do you the favor of not saying another word and will leave your thread if you just assure me you&amp;#039;ll watch that Thanissaro Bhikku video... and just the first few minutes of this one too while you&amp;#039;re at it:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3nl2ZaL0Y&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hey all, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Okay, I started the second link for a couple of minutes, Thannissaro Bhikku talks about how the mind requires effort to think and fabricate, etc,&lt;br /&gt;Not really buying it myself, from my view the mind is there, and thinks happen pretty much due to cause and effect, impersonally and on there own, it might seem like there is an effort involved, but, again from my view it is like saying a car engine is using effort to keep running, doesn&amp;#039;t make sense or really match up with reality , when reality is cross-examined and investigated.  Kind of seems like more of the dancing around the Ego/me delusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll check more into the link and the first link posted, because I might be just making a hasty, impulsive post, based on the other numerous hours of Thannissaro&amp;#039;s views.  And, it could be he is &amp;#034;baby-Stepping&amp;#034; practicioners towards anatta, You know, investigate what you think is the self, find out it&amp;#039;s not, wash , rinse, repeat.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do apologize for being so blunt lately, guess I am feeling that sense of urgency, (what if I die tomorrow), and am tired of beating around the bush so much, that coupled with not having mastered Right Speech, etc.  Well, it is what it is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll look at first link, interested in fabrications, and formations views.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 04:23:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577526</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T04:23:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577507</link> <description>Since you cannot hear me, maybe you will be more inclined to hear Thanissaro Bhikku. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s a short, 9 min clip of him talking about &amp;#039;Fabricating the Present&amp;#039;:  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTR63OwzEpE &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Please watch this video for the sake of all beings.  It&amp;#039;s short.  You might notice that his talk of fabrications isn&amp;#039;t about &amp;#039;visual blooms&amp;#039;, but it&amp;#039;s about watching what the mind does and calming it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To answer one of your questions, yes, we indeed use fabrications to attain release from &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; altogether.  This is why the Buddha was a genius.  You replace unskillful &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039;, with skillful &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039;, and eventually you release from &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; altogether.  That&amp;#039;s the hope anyway.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;In other words, you seem to be saying that all this action (formation, dicernment, release) is a matter of &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;a priori &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;intention, and the actual insight stage is just a separate object of this outsider manipulation perspective.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;A priori&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;outsider manipulation perspective&amp;#039; is really not a good way to understand what I&amp;#039;m saying.  But I&amp;#039;ll do you the favor of not saying another word and will leave your thread if you just assure me you&amp;#039;ll watch that Thanissaro Bhikku video... and just the first few minutes of this one too while you&amp;#039;re at it:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--3nl2ZaL0Y&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; </description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 02:52:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577507</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T02:52:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577497</link> <description>This is kind of simplistic, but normal perception is experienced as either &amp;#034;I&amp;#039;m looking out from here&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;experience is coming in from there&amp;#034;. High EQ formations are when both of those viewpoints arise seemingly together in a snap-shot of time. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oddly, internal self-sensations and external object sensations are arising within the same space sensation and with a time sensation --- which really suggests that normal perception is some kind of contructed experience. It also makes you wonder where this sense of &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; could be positioned to have this experience. The sense of &amp;#034;I&amp;#034; feels really unteathered and untrustworthy.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 02:00:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577497</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T02:00:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577485</link> <description>Let&amp;#039;s return this thread to its purpose: describing actual &lt;em&gt;experience&lt;/em&gt; of formations rather than weaving intellections around them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks!</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 01:07:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577485</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T01:07:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577482</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;dat Buddha-Field:&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Thus, the &amp;#039;point&amp;#039; of this stage of insight [Knowledge of Equanimity Concerning Formations] is to see how even equanimity is something that we do.  Even a state as pure and as clear as 4th jhana is fabricated.  In this stage of insight we are noticing how the mind &amp;#039;does&amp;#039; equanimity, and thus how even some small amount of stress is present due to this unecessary level of doing.  When we are able to discern this stress or doing, we can incline towards release from it and cessation occurs.  For the first time, we taste &amp;#039;not doing&amp;#039;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;Yes, fourth-jhana factors are something we fabricate, and &amp;#034;dropping&amp;#034; certain factors, which is also something we do, opens us to the next higher jhana. However, the insight nana Equanimity (as with all the insight stages) is not an object of distancing, outside perspective, and objectification. You seem to be confusing states with stages, thinking that the latter is a matter of wilfully distancing the former. When you speak of &amp;#034;inclining toward release&amp;#034; (cessation), are you saying that you attain to nondoing by inclining? Isn&amp;#039;t inclining doing? Isn&amp;#039;t inclining, by your definition, more fabrication? What is so special about this fabrication that it occasions relief from its very self, its very action-orientation?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 00:51:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577482</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T00:51:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577465</link> <description>&lt;strong&gt;dat Buddha-Field,&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As on the other thread where we went &amp;#039;round, you seem to be locating formation/fabrication before and outside of sensate experience. In other words, you seem to be saying that all this action (formation, dicernment, release) is a matter of &lt;em&gt;a priori &lt;/em&gt;intention, and the actual insight stage is just a separate object of this outsider manipulation perspective.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With respect, this seems to be, as DreamWalker suggested, an intellectualization--experience twice removed. Thanisarro, as well as Daniel, makes clear that &amp;#034;release&amp;#034; happens automatically, not by fiat of will power, once the practitioner penetrates (discerns) the phenomena as phenomena.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I was in High EQ, for example, I was trying at one point to search for a &amp;#034;self.&amp;#034; This search was exhausting and fruitless, but the point is that, as soon as I turned my concentration on something &amp;#034;over there&amp;#034; as my object, I suddenly knew a sense of self! X X on here gave me the hint that this was exactly right, that there is something profound and earth-shattering about the fact that object and subject create each other. If you persist in believing in radical subjectivism, then you are missing formation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for Daniel&amp;#039;s &amp;#034;equating&amp;#034; fourth jhana and the nana of Equanimity, that statement is not accurate. He draws a parallel, but that differs from equating them. Your follow-on statement is a strange distortion of what Daniel says. Daniel talks a lot about higher awakening being agency-less, centerless, and so on. You are talking about the agent and the agent&amp;#039;s stubborn moods as some kind of prime mover. This sounds like a misunderstanding.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;High EQ and formations are more like subsumptions or envelopments of yourself rather than something &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; manipulate from an outside perspective. You seem to have things somehow backward.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2014 00:22:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577465</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-06T00:22:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577417</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;dat Buddha-field, &lt;br /&gt;The topic is &amp;#034;Please Describe &lt;strong&gt;Your &lt;/strong&gt;High-EQ &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;If you have been in High EQ and expereinced formations would you please be so kind as to describe the expereince phenomenologically.&lt;br /&gt;Though you are very well read, direct expereince not an intelectual understanding of a subject is what is being asked here.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi D, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I responded in the way I did due the fact that it seemed like people were describing how they experience equanimity itself.  My point was that one&amp;#039;s experience of EQ is not an experience of the formations surrounding consciousness of equanimity. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to directly answer your question, I experience formations as stress.  The stress around equanimity is extremeley subtle!    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here is what I hope is a relatable example...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  Imagine being in a really bad mood, everything in the world is pissing you off today.  Someone sneezes on you and you just lose it, telling them what a gross horrible jerk they are.  Normally, you be a little grossed out, maybe even a bit ticked, but not today, you straight up lose it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So what was different today?  What is this thing we call a &amp;#039;bad mood&amp;#039;?  A bad mood is gross formations on the level of mind and body.  Being sneezed on was not a different physical event than on a day when it would have just grossed you out, right?  But something about &lt;em&gt;you &lt;/em&gt;was different.  &lt;em&gt;You &lt;/em&gt;were holding tension and stress in your body that caused you to perceive things more aggressively.  Events in your day were more colored by your bad mood, independent of the events themselves.  The tension that colors your experience of having a bad mood are the formations.  The formations were not &amp;#039;the being sneezed on&amp;#039;, nor were they even the anger.  They were what led you to react with anger.  AKA Your Karma, your intent, your volitional formations.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Later that oh-so-shitty day, you sit down to meditate.  At first your mind is still in a tizzy about what a shitty day it was, but all of a sudden something relaxes.  Your mind slows down and even your body feels lighter.  Your shitty day seems to matter less all of a sudden and you&amp;#039;re no longer in a bad mood.  What just happened?  You released from those formations that were coloring your day.  You let go of the stress you were holding in your bodymind.   This is what the Buddha means when he says to &amp;#039;calm bodily fabrications&amp;#039;.  Let go of the stress you are holding.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The point is that this still occurs all the way up through experiences as pure as equanimity, and THAT is what we are trying to discern.  Am I making sense?  Do you see why it&amp;#039;s a weird question to ask how you experience formations?  Formations are always experienced as stress in the mind, no matter how subtle.  Obviously there is a lot of nuance, flavor, and difference to how they occur... but it&amp;#039;s like asking &amp;#039;how do you experience the nature of your bad mood?&amp;#039;  You&amp;#039;re pissed!  That&amp;#039;s how.  </description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 21:27:14 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577417</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T21:27:14Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577387</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I prefer Thanissaro Bhikku&amp;#039;s translation, as &amp;#039;fabrications&amp;#039;.  It seems to really capture that our experience of reality is created out of action, karma, intentness, or fabrication.  It is profound how much of reality is fabricated.  The work of insight is to unravel all these incredibly habituated patterns of doing that conceal what lies underneath.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will notice that Daniel equates the nana of equanimity to the 4th vipassana jhana.  Recall that 4th jhana is the jhana where the factor of equanimity is present.  Thus, the &amp;#039;point&amp;#039; of this stage of insight is to see how even equanimity is something that we do.  Even a state as pure and as clear as 4th jhana is fabricated.  In this stage of insight we are noticing how the mind &amp;#039;does&amp;#039; equanimity, and thus how even some small amount of stress is present due to this unecessary level of doing.  When we are able to discern this stress or doing, we can incline towards release from it and cessation occurs.  For the first time, we taste &amp;#039;not doing&amp;#039;.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If we are experiencing some sort of visual phenomena, then certainly there is an element of fabrication present.  Being able to discern this is a matter of seeing the mind&amp;#039;s involvement in the process.  The visual phenomena itself is not the formation, it is the result of what the mind is &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; which is the formation.  Similarly, the EQ of fourth jhana is not nana of EQ.  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;dat Buddha-field, &lt;br /&gt;The topic is &amp;#034;Please Describe &lt;strong&gt;Your &lt;/strong&gt;High-EQ &amp;#034;Formations&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;If you have been in High EQ and expereinced formations would you please be so kind as to describe the expereince phenomenologically.&lt;br /&gt;Though you are very well read, direct expereince not an intelectual understanding of a subject is what is being asked here.&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 19:05:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577387</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T19:05:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577378</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Small Steps:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Could inclining towards release lead to jhana of boundless space rather than cessation? Or does the movement to this take on a different &amp;#039;flavor&amp;#039; of inclination than for release? (I can&amp;#039;t see why this wouldn&amp;#039;t be the case)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I think if we&amp;#039;re clear about what we&amp;#039;re doing then there isn&amp;#039;t really risk of accidental 5th jhana.  At that level of absorption, even very subtle movements of mind feel huge and thus accidents don&amp;#039;t really happen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But there is a fundamental difference in the two activities.  In moving from 4th to 5th jhana, we are content with our experience of EQ.  We let go of EQ and allow absorption into the dimension of boundless space to take its place.  Yet we are too fully abosrbed into our object (whether EQ or boundless space) to engage investigation into fabrications.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let&amp;#039;s say alternatively, we take Pa Auk Sayadaw&amp;#039;s advice and rise up to 4th jhana for the purpose of doing insight practice.  First, we must pull ourselves out of the absorption just enough to create space for investigation, but not too much such that we lose the state.  With this space we begin to investigate the equanimity itself, eventually see how it is being fabricated, look for the stress present in the fabrication, and incline towards release.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;How about the EQ that arises from Brahmavihara practice? Similar in fabrication to EQ of fourth jhana?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;There will definitely be some similarities, but as to how much is for you to investigate.  I think there are too many factors at play, and thus you might find that they have slightly different flavors.  Also, if you are focusing on EQ prior to even entering 1st jhana then it is certainly a much grosser fabrication.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That sounds like it could be a very cool, albiet very challenging practice.  Can you cultivate EQ as your nimitta and then pull back just enough to do insight on it as you bring it up through the jhanas?  Wow, now there&amp;#039;s something to try!!   </description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 18:06:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577378</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T18:06:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577368</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will notice that Daniel equates the nana of equanimity to the 4th vipassana jhana.  Recall that 4th jhana is the jhana where the factor of equanimity is present.  Thus, the &amp;#039;point&amp;#039; of this stage of insight is to see how even equanimity is something that we do.  Even a state as pure and as clear as 4th jhana is fabricated.  In this stage of insight we are noticing how the mind &amp;#039;does&amp;#039; equanimity, and thus how even some small amount of stress is present due to this unecessary level of doing.  When we are able to discern this stress or doing, we can incline towards release from it and cessation occurs.  For the first time, we taste &amp;#039;not doing&amp;#039;.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Could inclining towards release lead to jhana of boundless space rather than cessation? Or does the movement to this take on a different &amp;#039;flavor&amp;#039; of inclination than for release? (I can&amp;#039;t see why this wouldn&amp;#039;t be the case)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If we are experiencing some sort of visual phenomena, then certainly there is an element of fabrication present.  Being able to discern this is a matter of seeing the mind&amp;#039;s involvement in the process.  The visual phenomena itself is not the formation, it is the result of what the mind is &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; which is the formation.  &lt;strong&gt;Similarly, the EQ of fourth jhana is not nana of EQ.&lt;/strong&gt;     &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How about the EQ that arises from Brahmavihara practice? Similar in fabrication to EQ of fourth jhana?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your point above is a good one. The nana of any stage is not the same as the felt sense (or fabrication) of being in that stage.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:02:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577368</guid> <dc:creator>Small Steps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T17:02:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577361</link> <description>I prefer Thanissaro Bhikku&amp;#039;s translation, as &amp;#039;fabrications&amp;#039;.  It seems to really capture that our experience of reality is created out of action, karma, intentness, or fabrication.  It is profound how much of reality is fabricated.  The work of insight is to unravel all these incredibly habituated patterns of doing that conceal what lies underneath.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You will notice that Daniel equates the nana of equanimity to the 4th vipassana jhana.  Recall that 4th jhana is the jhana where the factor of equanimity is present.  Thus, the &amp;#039;point&amp;#039; of this stage of insight is to see how even equanimity is something that we do.  Even a state as pure and as clear as 4th jhana is fabricated.  In this stage of insight we are noticing how the mind &amp;#039;does&amp;#039; equanimity, and thus how even some small amount of stress is present due to this unecessary level of doing.  When we are able to discern this stress or doing, we can incline towards release from it and cessation occurs.  For the first time, we taste &amp;#039;not doing&amp;#039;.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If we are experiencing some sort of visual phenomena, then certainly there is an element of fabrication present.  Being able to discern this is a matter of seeing the mind&amp;#039;s involvement in the process.  The visual phenomena itself is not the formation, it is the result of what the mind is &amp;#039;doing&amp;#039; which is the formation.  Similarly, the EQ of fourth jhana is not nana of EQ.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;   </description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 16:13:54 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577361</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T16:13:54Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577317</link> <description>Some further observations:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* Noticed that random memories come up, which is something that happens also during Vipassana. They are always completely unconnected to recent events which is how they are noticable. As with Vipassana sits, for me they are usually like a snapshot of some past moment, rather than any elaborate story. They tend to be moments of self-consciousness (in the psychological sense). Don&amp;#039;t know what it&amp;#039;s all about but it suggests there is some common ground with Vipassana during the exercises, not just during &amp;#034;sense and feel&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* Last sessions I noticed my mind wandering during &amp;#034;eyes in direction&amp;#034;. I am guessing this is another form of resistance. Also noticed how eyes looking up would easily come down to &amp;#034;halfway up&amp;#034; unless paying attention. When paying attention, trying to keep the mouth open, the eyes as far as possible in one direction AND belly breathing.. then the mind wanders. In this case I figured I&amp;#039;d give my resistances some lee way and let the mouth do whatever it wants (usually come back to barely open), and focus on the eyes and breathing. Then I was able to remain focused. &amp;#034;Baby steps&amp;#034; ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* There has definitely been more relaxation in my social interactions, along with one instance I mentioned earlier where disatisfaction spontaneously expressed itself with a shopkeeper, which for me is significant (I would usually always repress such emotions, rationalizing with philosophical outlook, or trying to &amp;#034;be equanimous&amp;#034;). Further going back to that store there was no awkwardness or left over feelings at all. It really was a spontaneous outburst which is something I don&amp;#039;t remember noticing ever after Vipassana (&lt;strong&gt;edit:&lt;/strong&gt; actually that&amp;#039;s not 100% correct as I did have a big outburst of anger at my father last year, wich was significant for my &amp;#034;character style&amp;#034;; and really improved our relationships after we had a sit down and a chat (which I had to also initiate).. and my recent outburst with a shopkeeper may simply be a natural progression of that so TLDR I can&amp;#039;t really claim either technique has shown more benefits so far).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;* I have this psychosomatic issue where I sweat during competitive games. It&amp;#039;s really annoying, and I can&amp;#039;t for the life of me figureit out. I&amp;#039;ve been rationalizing this thing for years and can&amp;#039;t seem to &amp;#034;psychoanalyze&amp;#034; myself out of it. I hope Reichian Therapy will finally address that. Maybe it is merely chronic tensions that needs to unwind itself with repeated application of the breathing (in retrospect I am much more of a &amp;#034;needy/oral&amp;#034; character in Stephen Johnson&amp;#039;s &lt;em&gt;Character Styles&lt;/em&gt; than the schizoid type). Of interest here, a daily 1h sit will eventually get completely rid of this tension in the shoulders and the sweating. &lt;em&gt;Completely.&lt;/em&gt; However what&amp;#039;s always discouraged me in Vipassana, is that it seems temporary because when I stop these symptoms would come back. Further the difficulty to build up strong concentration, and to maintain the sensibility you get in a 10 day course suggests that 1h daily sits don&amp;#039;t really go to &amp;#034;the roots&amp;#034; of the issues as Goenka suggested.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 10:38:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577317</guid> <dc:creator>faB</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T10:38:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: From the MCTB2 Editor: Please Describe Your High-EQ "Formations"</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577287</link> <description>Someone emailed me recently with the news that her experience of formations is like mine: these blooming nimittas that fold and bloom, fold and bloom. Interesting, huh?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 07:21:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577287</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T07:21:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577172</link> <description>This stuff sounds promising. I&amp;#039;m halfway through the book and started working on the breathing techniques a few days ago. I&amp;#039;ll update if I start seeing anything~</description> <pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2014 02:07:34 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577172</guid> <dc:creator>Nik</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-05T02:07:34Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Put Personal Meditation History in MCTB2?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576731</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jen Pearly:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Simon: &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;I don&amp;#039;t see either was evenness of level of detail can mean considering that the book deals with so many differen&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;t a&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;spects that&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; might very well need different level of detail. Should the section on dissolution be has long and detailed than the section on equanimity? Is that the kind of evenness we are talking here? &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hi, Simon. I meant that some parts of MCTB1 are raced through with little actual technique imparted. I also mean that some of the skimpy chapters, such as the ones on the subnanas of the Dark Night, might work better bundled together into a single chapter if they aren&amp;#039;t going to be further detailed. It is conventional in book publishing to make the chapters approximately the same length and scope. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You don&amp;#039;t know me from Eve, I realize, but, again, I&amp;#039;ll just assert that I&amp;#039;ve never had any author be anything except ecstatic over my substantive edits. I promise you that I won&amp;#039;t set out to ruin or dumb down the book. And I promise not to make Daniel sound like Jack. As if Daniel would let anyone do any of those things!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t know what else to say. I could post my resume, acknowledgments, and awards, but that sort of thing is unlikely to inspire the confidence that just seeing the work would.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not personnally interested in reading the draft by the way, as I don&amp;#039;t have the time nor the skills or the level of realization to seriously contribute to it. I see that you have a reading group, which is good and might serve in providing the valuable input. Don&amp;#039;t get me wrong, I&amp;#039;m grateful for your work. I&amp;#039;m simply coming from a background where many people working on the same piece of work is common. </description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 23:59:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576731</guid> <dc:creator>Simon T.</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T23:59:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Put Personal Meditation History in MCTB2?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576438</link> <description>That will help reduce confusion.  Though it will tough to explain toroids and some of the kasina after-effects like logarithmic spirals.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 03:08:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576438</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T03:08:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Put Personal Meditation History in MCTB2?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576348</link> <description>Thanks, Richard. I&amp;#039;m also reading widely on the DhO and talking with others who&amp;#039;ve read the book (ie, a reading group I was in last year). Since I&amp;#039;m in there editing anyway, I&amp;#039;m also dropping reader questions in. This by no means means I&amp;#039;m the only or best reader to offer a reader response, but it is a start.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For an example of the kinds of queries I&amp;#039;m making: Daniel has a conversational writing style in MCTB, and people like his modern, casual voice. However, one of the drawbacks of being so breezy/chatty is that sometimes the words he selects are vague. For instance, he uses &amp;#034;things&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;this stuff&amp;#034; a lot. So I query him for more precision. It doesn&amp;#039;t change his overall voice to select a more specific word so we readers can be sure we know precisely what he&amp;#039;s saying at each point. Other times, particularly in the descriptions of the three doors, the pronouns are ambiguous, so I will query him for antecedents so the picture of those doors is clearer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jenny</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:22:16 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576348</guid> <dc:creator>_</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T00:22:16Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 