<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_thread?p_l_id=&amp;threadId=5606334</link> <description>What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 01:42:44 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T01:42:44Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606576</link> <description>Oh it&amp;#039;s not painful, you&amp;#039;re right, it&amp;#039;s more annoying than anything. I was just kind of wondering from a hypothetical perspective. Does somebody who has to experience a lot of physical pain have a harder time achieving jhana? And can something that is painful be turned into something pleasant through concentration, and jhana can be achieved by focusing on an object that is initially painful?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for your post by the way. The idea that the key is concentration itself that brings about pleasure and leads to jhana made things a lot more clear to me.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 02:17:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606576</guid> <dc:creator>rich r a</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T02:17:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606478</link> <description>Haha, well I just thought your clogged nostril was more annoying than painful.  I don&amp;#039;t think you&amp;#039;ll get to jhana by focusing on unpleasant things.  Acceptance of annoying things and concentration on something in the present will take you to jhana, though.  I was just trying to point out that it&amp;#039;s the stable awareness, not the object of awareness, that&amp;#039;s important.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 19:30:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606478</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T19:30:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606431</link> <description>Thanks for the quick replies guys.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it is not that the breathing needs to be pleasurable, but rather, concentration itself becomes pleasurable. Is this the general consensus that everyone agrees on to reach the first jhana?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So hypothetically speaking, if I were to choose an unpleasant or painful object, such as a severe itch or ache on my body, can jhana be just as attainable if I focus on those spots? Would the pain or unpleasantness turn into something pleasant just from the concentration on the object?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d actually rather not switch objects just because I&amp;#039;ve been doing the breath for so long, and it indeed is easier to keep my concentration on it because the unpleasantness of it draws my attention to it more. But I wonder if this is holding me back?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 15:44:38 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606431</guid> <dc:creator>rich r a</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T15:44:38Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606392</link> <description>The key to jhana seems to be stability of attention.  It isn&amp;#039;t that you try to make the breath pleasant, so much as concentration itself is pleasant, and most people are watching the breath.  If you have any pleasant sensation anywhere, you can simply watch that.  If nothing seems pleasant, just watch anything at all - whatever captures your attention most easily.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My first forrays into jhana were accidental. I was a teenager, and I was trying to learn telekinesis (hehe).  I was staring at a psi wheel for about 10 minutes, and I began to notice how incredibly beautiful it was.  I looked around and everything was glowing vibrantly with color.  I didn&amp;#039;t know what it was at the time.  Later on, when I started meditating, I liked to do body scanning - where I just placed attention on different body parts in sequence for a few seconds - and after a while each thing became very pleasant until the whole body was buzzing with pleasurable tingles.  From there concentration is very easy, so you can just go along for the ride.  It seems very easy just to stay with anything once you&amp;#039;ve stabilized the awareness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So you can concentrate on anything at all, just remember it&amp;#039;s the act of stabilizing your attention that makes the jhana, not any particular object or sensation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A good way to think about it is trying to stop a train that&amp;#039;s going down hill.  The movement of attention has its own weight and momentum, so the first few minutes of applying the breaks might not make a noticable difference when you first start.  Try not to think of it like you&amp;#039;re vieing for control over your mind, but rather you&amp;#039;re slowing it down with every moment of sustained awareness of a single thing.  Every time you notice you aren&amp;#039;t concentrating, just hold the attention on something.  You will get carried off by the momentum again, but then you&amp;#039;ll have a moment of clarity, and you use that to go directly back to the object.  There&amp;#039;s no reason to scold yourself or anything because that&amp;#039;s just keeping your foot away from the brakes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lastly, if you find your clogged nose distracting, that means you&amp;#039;re already focused on it, so why not just use that as your object of concentration.  &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;  Anything can become pleasant if you keep your mind open to the possibility.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:45:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606392</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T10:45:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606389</link> <description>Another popular object is a visual object called a kasina.  This can be a colored circle drawn on something or a candle flame or other light source shined into the eyes.  After staring at the light the eyes can be closed and then the after-image on the retina can be concentrated on.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:42:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606389</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T10:42:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606347</link> <description>Samatha (pure &amp;#034;concentration&amp;#034;) practice should be pleasurable/blissful, yes. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Proper samatha should suppress the 5 hindrances of sense desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness, and doubt.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This forum doesn&amp;#039;t seem to talk about the 5 factors of samatha much (probably because the focus here is geared toward vipassana), but the 5 factors of jhana are vitakka (applied thinking)-vicara (sustained thinking) and piti (rapture)-sukkha (bliss) and ekagatta (one-pointedness).  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the first jhana these 5 factors arise and the 5 hindrances are suppressed.  Each subsequent jhana eliminates the factors as a more and more refined level of absorption is obtained.  In the second jhana the forceful attention (vitakka-vicara) is dropped.  In the third jhana the piti (rapture) is dropped.  In the fourth jhana the sukkha (bliss) is dropped and the result is a very refined state of equanimity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In practice all of this happens automatically whenever an object is selected and concentration on that object is maintained for a significant length of time.  Knowing all of this terminology is unnecessary, but helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; My sinuses cause my nostrils to alternate so usually only one is open at a time. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Is this going to be a problem to achieving jhana? Or can I learn to find some kind of pleasantry in the sensation of breathing if I spend more time being mindful of it?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t have any significant trouble with sinuses (though sometimes), but often I would notice that at certain stages one or the other nostril would inhale more air than another.  There is probably some kind of &amp;#034;meditative-energetic&amp;#034; correlation as to which nostril is inhaling, but I&amp;#039;m not sure what this is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If the nose is not working for you as an object of meditation, then pretty much any other object concentrated on for long enough will produce jhana.  Another popular spot is concentrating on the belly a little bit below the navel.  You might want to try the belly as an object instead of the nostrils.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 08:22:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606347</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T08:22:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>What if breathing isn't pleasurable?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606333</link> <description>Hi everyone. I read the stickied thread of this forum, and it mentioned that the key to achieving the first jhana is to focus on pleasant sensations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is news to me, I didn&amp;#039;t pleasure was a requirement for jhana. I always thought all I needed was to cultivate my mindfulness and concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The issue is that for some reason, I have developed a distaste for breathing out my left nostril. I&amp;#039;ve seen doctors about it and they said it&amp;#039;s not too abnormal to require surgery. Anyway, at this point i don&amp;#039;t have money for that. It&amp;#039;s not necessarily painful, it just feels clogged up and unpleasant to breath through. My sinuses cause my nostrils to alternate so usually only one is open at a time. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this going to be a problem to achieving jhana? Or can I learn to find some kind of pleasantry in the sensation of breathing if I spend more time being mindful of it?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:47:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606333</guid> <dc:creator>rich r a</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-17T07:47:09Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 