<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" version="2.0"> <channel> <title>Non-specific/Broad/Generic</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_category?p_l_id=&amp;mbCategoryId=77844</link> <description>Discussions that cross traditions boundaries should go here.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2014 00:38:56 GMT</pubDate> <dc:date>2014-10-19T00:38:56Z</dc:date> <item> <title>RE: Pelvic area contraction and a weird energy burst</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606646</link> <description>I keep noticing a pressure moving around the chakra points lately.  &amp;#034;Trying&amp;#034; in general is what gets it stuck, so I think the best thing to do is accept it where it is.  You might notice that, when you finally leave it alone, it moves up the body.  Very weird stuff, haha, but just go with it, eh? &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 12:43:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606646</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T12:43:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Pelvic area contraction and a weird energy burst</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606615</link> <description>Hi,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have some sort of energetic contraction in the pelvis area and it kind of gets stronger when some negative situations happen.  I&amp;#039;ve tried being mindful of it but it still stays there in the body in the pelvic area. Like a glob of negative stuff.&lt;br /&gt;Does anyone know how to ease this or is there anyone else who has felt/ is feeling this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And the other weird sensation that I have is from time to time involuntarily there is an urge of the body to break through. Like an instant warm sensation will appear mainly in the head and shoulders area and it does appear like the body is trying to either disintigrate or teleport and it lasts for a split second&lt;br /&gt;Does anyone have more information on this? This has happened a lot of times.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2014 06:16:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5606615</guid> <dc:creator>John</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-18T06:16:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605793</link> <description>No.  Not yet needed.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 03:35:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605793</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T03:35:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605754</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Jeremy May:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It&amp;#039;s time for you, Dragon.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Can you elaborate?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2014 01:53:29 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605754</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-16T01:53:29Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605705</link> <description>It&amp;#039;s time for you, Dragon.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2014 23:51:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5605705</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-15T23:51:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: To cease or not to cease?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604773</link> <description>Hi Blue Jay,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The question is: does the experience of cessation of the mind in a &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; cycle disturb the &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; cycle?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Not in my experience. If you&amp;#039;re in, for example, the A&amp;amp;P of a &amp;#034;new&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; cycle, the time you&amp;#039;re spending in that stage will be much greater than it would if you were still in Review from the lower cycle, no matter how many times you complete it. The one fairly negligible exception I can think of being if you&amp;#039;re in high EQ in the higher cycle, just on the verge of the higher fruition, and you try to push it (arguably you&amp;#039;ve already fallen out of high EQ for this to be possible) and end up having the lower fruition rather than the higher one from a place of deeper release. Then your chances of achieving the high EQ of the higher cycle again are reduced for at least a few seconds. At least I&amp;#039;ve never personally had the fruition for a higher cycle directly after one for a lower cycle.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve also had multiple lower fruitions within a few minutes while in the EQ of a higher cycle. At that stage though I wouldn&amp;#039;t recommend much deliberate action of any kind. At earlier stages it may help. To be honest, I never really paid much heed to the nanas after SE. I just focused on insight, and once that arrived in sufficient doses the higher fruitions occurred automatically regardless of what stage I seemed to be in. They were probably quickly preceeded by sudden shifts through the remaining nanas of the higher cycle and into high EQ.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All the best</description> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:48:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5604773</guid> <dc:creator>B B</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-14T17:48:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>... Continued - I don't know 'where' I am.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603527</link> <description>Okay - the interface of this website on moble is going to make me cry ( Hahahahaaa - not very enlightened?)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;anyway... Stuff happened. Here is where I am now, or at least what I can &amp;#039;see&amp;#039; ... And not unsee&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;please respond if you get any of this! I&amp;#039;m terrified-excited! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- how all of reality is vibrations, but of what I don&amp;#039;t know. Substance is not really a word worth using here. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- able to feel it as such and notice it as only such, but also something else... But not even a something...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- an insight that all things microcosmic to macro cosmic have awareness, and &amp;#039;desire&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;aversion&amp;#039; as the result of a sort of ... Preference isn&amp;#039;t the right word - it is aware and flowing, but not because of physics - it causes physics - this insight is new and hard to express, but it resolves the &amp;#039;well this is all nothing and empty in a bad meaningless way&amp;#039; idea. It&amp;#039;s really really really fucking cool - to put it mildly. Very big understatement. No words - not real solid understanding of this. It&amp;#039;s new. It really knocked me out. (&amp;#039;Funny&amp;#039; story - I pulled my car over when this happened, watched a person leave his car, two gunshots, then he followed me onto the highway - hello real world and not dying being worth it and important again!)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- being able to feel all phenomena as vibration in a complete way, but able to ease back into normal things and have fun, be neurotic still, have laundry, chop wood, carry water and &amp;#039;be&amp;#039; who I &amp;#039;was&amp;#039;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- the very profound notion : how the hell did I not notice reality is an illusion before? I&amp;#039;m a somehow patterned grouping of vibrations that are constantly not me/part of everything/everything/ every ONE ... The everyone things seems more accurate. I had love and compassion and excitement for all of the atoms in my dashboard/air/some tree/ all of the universe... &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- everything is bigger and fuller and depper then not only humans can think - but once you notice it, numbers and size are pretty much a moot and outdated concept - by a lot&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;theres more, but my thumbs are tired ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;welp - take your best shot. Please don&amp;#039;t post any negitive feedback. Um - not sure why anyone would if they can see this stuff. Oh! I hope someone gets this who I can just chat with. I haven&amp;#039;t really told anyone in non &amp;#039;oh gee this must be a mental illness fluke&amp;#039; kind of facade. People are way more comfortable with it - like getting drunk is an acceptable time to hug people, but if I just wanted to hug everyone I see (and I do! And hug all the gluons! They&amp;#039;re giving it away, cheeky things ;) ... Well, that would get looks... Maybe cops. :p</description> <pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2014 16:02:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603527</guid> <dc:creator>Heather bird McElroy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-12T16:02:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>I don't know 'where' I am - I need help processing what is happening</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603494</link> <description>Okay - levels and dark nights and attainments &amp;#034;aside&amp;#034; :&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;first off - I&amp;#039;m pretty sure if I don&amp;#039;t get so e personal guidence, there may be trouble. Yes, I have all of the conventional psychological support - an army, really. A retreat would be ideal, but my college forays into places like The Berkely Psychic Institute ( I know, I know - the name... It should have been obvious. I have a thing for dumb names...) have left me extremely wary of charlatans and potentially brain washing dogma. I&amp;#039;m in a bit of a vulnerable state. I doubt I&amp;#039;d buy anything silly. I&amp;#039;ve seen too much, at this point, and I know what I&amp;#039;ve seen. Guidence from someone kind, knowing - or at least extremely open minded - is essential. Otherwise I may as well just continue to &amp;#039;trip out&amp;#039; and post to random strangers on the internet. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;SO, &amp;#034;where&amp;#034; am I? I guess I can&amp;#039;t tell, so I suppose it isn&amp;#039;t very &amp;#039;far.&amp;#039; I can tell you what I can &amp;#039;see&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;know&amp;#039; and then maybe someone can give me advice. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Note also that I have no FORMAL practice whatsoever. Having one would be nice... I can basically put myself in a meditative state at any time just wondering around. Maybe it&amp;#039;s a form of yoga or walking meditation without patern? Anyway, I find sitting painful. Lying on my back is fine - moving even better. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok. Here is the list. Bare with me. It&amp;#039;s all pretty indescribable:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- all the extreme pain and mental suffering has pased, but in the last year I have, mostly in order: had extreme cramping in the extremities, hallucinated, had a &amp;#039;hallucination&amp;#039; that I was being attacked by demons and had to hold my attention on a small light to stay here/not die,went through a few weeks where I couldn&amp;#039;t stop moving (the mental hospital was baffled enough that I was there for nearly a month - hard to do, but worth meeting the beautiful humans there), had severe suicidal ... thought attacks?..., depression, moments of feeling human again, and then severe derealization - basically being able to see the &amp;#039;illusion&amp;#039; of reality from the outside - and not able to unsee it (very hard to function)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, that&amp;#039;s over. I assume it was the dark night. I know the maps are helpful, but do we all really travel them the same way?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I digress.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- then I quickly made peace with being able to see reality from outside&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- had a bit more control over seeing it&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- felt that other beings were not as real as me, and didn&amp;#039;t have awareness, and that maybe I was &amp;#039;god&amp;#039; and had created all this fake stuff because I was lonely ( this may have happened sooner... Really depressing thought)</description> <pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2014 15:34:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603494</guid> <dc:creator>Heather bird McElroy</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-12T15:34:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Float tanks ?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603254</link> <description>google ---&amp;gt; site:http://www.dharmaoverground.org float tank&lt;br /&gt;some old threads discussing them</description> <pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2014 05:05:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603254</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-12T05:05:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Float tanks ?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603181</link> <description>Looking at the old thread below on float tanks I&amp;#039;m a little surprised not many have tried them. I&amp;#039;d like to know what they are like combined with meditation which I would think woud be a really effective environment for it. These are probably going to get a bit more popular as Joe Rogan regularly talks about them. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Joe talking about  it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeqmKwsvM58&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve known about them for years but there is nowhere to go to try it near me, so anyone try it ?</description> <pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2014 03:36:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5603181</guid> <dc:creator>John</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-12T03:36:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>To cease or not to cease?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602918</link> <description>Hello&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve been practicing insight meditation. I have the feeling that I am almost at the end of a new and complete &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; insight cycle. All I need now is to dedicate time to contemplating emptines. I also have the feeling, simultaneously, that I am cycling through the &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; cycles of the path I&amp;#039;m in. When I experience the cessation of the mind at the end of a &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; cycle, I have to relearn how to experience things with equanimity. So I go back to the starting point, so it seems. These could either be the cycles from 2nd to 3rd path, each eliminating deeper levels of attachment. Or could be cycles that imitate the elimination of attachment but belong just to the 2nd path experience. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t have enough insight and wisdom to destroy attachment and aversion yet. I need to contemplate emptiness for more time. On the other hand, the mind and body, after a cessation experience, feel very good and free. The question is: does the experience of cessation of the mind in a &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; cycle disturb the &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; cycle? If it does disturb, I rather contemplate emptiness. If it doesn&amp;#039;t I would like to experience that freedom that comes with it and keep progressing in the &amp;#034;higher&amp;#034; cycle. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think is the best option and why? Thanks.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:45:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602918</guid> <dc:creator>Blue Jay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-11T15:45:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Impermanent Arahatship?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602906</link> <description>Hello&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I saw a few days ago a member here saying that arahatship is impermanent. I was intrigued by what he meant by this, especialy knowing that there is at least one ancient buddhist school that held this view. In your experience, be it partial or full, what sense do you make of this idea? An enlightened being is dependent on his biology, but isn&amp;#039;t it too extreme to say that arahatship is impermanent?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/exclamation.gif" &gt; This is not intended as a debate, but as trying to make sense of a potentialy important insight. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/exclamation.gif" &gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:24:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602906</guid> <dc:creator>Blue Jay</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-11T15:24:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Practice advise by Kyle</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602160</link> <description>Anatta at the beginning remains as an intellectual concept. But the realization of anatta is something direct, experiential, non-conceptual. However there must be ongoing contemplative practice -- that is, directly experiencing one&amp;#039;s sensate reality, and contemplating/challenging any sense of a self/agent/seer/perceiver/etc behind/within/in-between them. Until there is direct realization that there is no self, seer, or even a &amp;#039;seeing&amp;#039; located in and of itself behind, within, in between the seen. The seen alone sees, no seer. After this the experience of No-Mind becomes very effortless. It certainly does not take &amp;#039;two hours&amp;#039; to get into some state, it is right now naturally manifested in direct experience here without any effort -- just this typing, these words on the screen manifesting as total clarity without any self/Self behind/within/in-between in relation to &amp;#039;just the seen/just the action&amp;#039;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As Thusness wrote before in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html :&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;At first &amp;#039;effort&amp;#039; to focus on experiencing on the vividness of &amp;#039;sensation&amp;#039; in the most immediate and direct way will remain. It will be &amp;#039;concentrative&amp;#039; for some time before it turns effortless.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;There are a few points I would like to share:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;1. Insight that &amp;#039;anatta&amp;#039; is a seal and not a stage must arise to further progress into the &amp;#039;effortless&amp;#039; mode. That is, anatta is the ground of all experiences and has always been so, no I. In seeing, &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;always only&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt; seen, in hearing &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;always only&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt; sound and in thinking, &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;always only&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt; thoughts. No effort required and never was there an &amp;#039;I&amp;#039;.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;2. It is better not to treat sensation as &amp;#039;real&amp;#039; as the word &amp;#039;real&amp;#039; in Buddhism carries a different meaning. It is rather a moment of vivid, luminous presence but nothing &amp;#039;real&amp;#039;. It may be difficult to realise why is this important but it will become clearer in later phase of our progress.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;3. Do go further into the aspect of dependent origination and emptiness to further &amp;#039;purify&amp;#039; the experience of anatta. Not only is there no who, there is no where and when in all manifestation.&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After realizing anatta one must still continue contemplation until realization of twofold emptiness. Then what follows is just actualization.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#039;Rigpa&amp;#039; as such is not a state, it is not a peak experience but simply the actualization of insights, living it out in real-time. (There are however different levels and modes of rigpa, rigpa means &amp;#039;knowledge&amp;#039;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, when drinking hot tea, whole body is just that burning! Just hot, no trace of you, whole universe is hot. &lt;span style="color: #333333"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;FreeSans&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;And this dynamic exertion/becoming never &amp;#039;becomes&amp;#039; or amounts to anything, an unborn, shimmering and illusory display.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 06:27:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602160</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T06:27:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Practice advise by Kyle</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602149</link> <description>AEN, do you think that if something like this is your practice, concepts like anatta can get in the way?  This sounds very similar to what I was doing before, and, like you said, even if it&amp;#039;s a bit forced at first, it will eventually smooth out into that effortlessness (it usually took me about two hours in the morning.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I read descriptions of rigpa, or other &amp;#034;natural state&amp;#034; type things, they seem completely different from what I experienced - incredibly convoluted and philosophical - but then I read how people get there and it&amp;#039;s often identical.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, is the goal of this practice to remain in rigpa all the time?  That seems contrary to the &amp;#034;don&amp;#039;t look for a state&amp;#034; thing I hear so often.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 06:13:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602149</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T06:13:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Practice advise by Kyle</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602104</link> <description>Very good description of perception/recognition:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;You can play a game with this by touching something and rubbing it lightly, if you shift attention to the object then the sensation becomes the touching and feeling of the object, if you shift attention to your finger the sensation becomes the feeling in your finger, there is only one touch sensation, the shifting of attention and intention creates the nature of the sensation via imputation. Or another one; if you rub your thumb and pointer finger together, shifting attention to the thumb it&amp;#039;s your thumb doing the touching, shift your attention to your pointer finger and it&amp;#039;s your pointer finger doing the touching, in truth neither are touching, a tactile sensation simply appears in awareness, and the sensation is in fact awareness itself. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 02:04:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602104</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T02:04:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Practice advise by Kyle</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602090</link> <description>&lt;span style="color: #141823"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;lucida&amp;#x20;grande&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;tahoma&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;Oops! I didn&amp;#039;t paste it completely. In continuation:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #141823"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;lucida&amp;#x20;grande&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;tahoma&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #141823"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;lucida&amp;#x20;grande&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;tahoma&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #141823"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;lucida&amp;#x20;grande&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;tahoma&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;Coming back to the stabilization of &amp;#034;thought-flow&amp;#034; and clarity in samatha or shine meditation... this stabilization reduces the projection of designations by thought so experience can be rested in nakedly without too much distraction and for this reason it is very helpful. From there, resting in this &amp;#034;presence&amp;#034; you see that the &amp;#034;presence&amp;#034; IS the &amp;#034;appearances&amp;#034; and vice versa. Also, mere mindfulness will help stabilize this, even if it&amp;#039;s contrived or forced.... just remain present at all times... ChNN says to do it like you&amp;#039;re driving a car... just remain aware and focused at what&amp;#039;s happening around you, just be here. Even if it feels like there&amp;#039;s a &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; attempting to &amp;#034;be here&amp;#034; just let it be. In time this will also dawn true insight and the point is to have that innate and true insight apart from all of this intellectual crap i&amp;#039;m talking about... in just remaining present the meditation will start to work for itself and true insight will dawn on it&amp;#039;s own accord... so try not to be distracted, and practice that non-distraction like you&amp;#039;re doing it to save your life... like if you become distracted you&amp;#039;ll be killed, make it of utmost importance... maintaining that flow. Now when ChNN and dzogchen talk about remaining undistracted they don&amp;#039;t mean merely remaining present, they&amp;#039;re talking about not separating from the non-dual natural state once that becomes apparent. But luckily since the self and the senses and objects are mere imputed conventions, in the act of remaining present, the natural state is already implied... and the contrived mindful presence will just strengthen the connection with the natural state... it&amp;#039;s also almost like a process of reconfiguring, removing habits and tendencies to reify dualities which make a subject-object experience seem real. In time with being present, it will just happen... the feeling of being a subjective entity will just go. The &amp;#034;all-ground&amp;#034; or feeling of substantiated awareness happening here will melt into the natural state. Don&amp;#039;t be too contrived in your mindfulness, just be present, be relaxed, allow appearances to self-arise and self-liberate and remove the notion of time and space, know that this is indeed it right here, right now, but &amp;#034;feel&amp;#034; that... don&amp;#039;t convince yourself intellectually, be in the flow, be the flow.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2014 00:32:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602090</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-10T00:32:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Practice advise by Kyle</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602050</link> <description>I found this advise by Kyle Dixon to someone in 2012 which I think is well written. Posting this up with Kyle&amp;#039;s permission. (More writing of his can be found in &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakeningtoreality&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2e;au&amp;#x2f;2012&amp;#x2f;03&amp;#x2f;sun-that-never-sets&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/sun-that-never-sets.html&lt;/a&gt; , &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;awakeningtoreality&amp;#x2e;blogspot&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;2013&amp;#x2f;12&amp;#x2f;clarifications-on-term-rigpa&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/12/clarifications-on-term-rigpa.html&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;.....&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That experience was fairly spontaneous, if I was to try to pin point what brought it on exactly I&amp;#039;m not sure if I could. But for about a year on and off prior to that I&amp;#039;d been practicing samatha or shine meditation which pretty much consists of just sitting quietly, eyes open looking at an object or space and not doing anything at all. If a thought arose I&amp;#039;d just let it pass and self liberate immediately without following it. From doing that my clarity and presence increased a lot. I had two smaller non-self experiences before the big one during the time I was meditating regularly everyday. I also was doing a lot of self inquiry. The day that happened though I was doing some inquiry into thought related to the present moment which was actually very forced so I&amp;#039;m not sure how it brought that anatta experience about. I just focused strongly on the present moment and took the attitude that there was only right here, and right now, that only what was being immediately experienced existed and it was all that ever had and ever would (which is true but felt opposite of how I usually had functioned). So I focused on that every thought that arose was the only thought there is, none before, none after. And there could only be one thought in that moment. Since there was only that one it wasn&amp;#039;t like there was a thought waiting to arise and/or one that had left, there was no coming or going, just was was here now. And for some reason the present thought just became noise that didn&amp;#039;t mean anything, like gibberish and it was all of a sudden apparent beyond a shadow of a doubt that there had never ever ever been anyone here at all. Thought stopped and seeing was happening but no one seeing, hearing happening but no one hearing etc.. There was only experiencing and my absence felt like I had died, or it was just seen that I had never existed which was crushing and upsetting in a way but at the same time it was beautiful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it was weird because I had been forcing an inquiry but the experience came on spontaneously. I&amp;#039;d actually deviated from dzogchen a little time before that because until this point I hadn&amp;#039;t had any substantial experiences to validate the teaching at all. Right around that time I had been reading a lot of this guy nisargadatta who isn&amp;#039;t even a Buddhist teacher but speaks really well about the non reality of the self... But after that experience I got more into dzogchen then I had been before and that&amp;#039;s because it wasn&amp;#039;t just a theory or idea anymore I saw that it was real. And I saw that it wasn&amp;#039;t just that experience but that&amp;#039;s how reality manifests at all times.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as trying to create that experience that&amp;#039;s the trouble, which it seems you already see... That any effort to &amp;#034;get there&amp;#034; is effort by the self and therefore spoils it from being seen. This is why dzogchen speaks of &amp;#034;doing nothing&amp;#034; or &amp;#034;effortlessness&amp;#034;, so that meditation you&amp;#039;re doing where you rest in awareness is good... and adding the insight of &amp;#034;in the seeing just the seen&amp;#034; etc.. Is good too. Adding the timelessness aspect to that is also key, (which is also effortless because it&amp;#039;s always only now, but that isn&amp;#039;t always apparent). The feeling that there&amp;#039;s an individual that spans time is a big part of it. What helps is understanding that it&amp;#039;s only thought that says &amp;#034;I&amp;#034;.. The &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; is just a thought, the thought isn&amp;#039;t commenting on a &amp;#034;me&amp;#034; which is actually present apart from the thought. It&amp;#039;s just a thought. So unless a thought is arising to claim authorship, it&amp;#039;s already just seeing, just hearing. And the seeing, hearing etc.. Isn&amp;#039;t inside or outside, it&amp;#039;s just present. Just &amp;#039;right here&amp;#039;.. immediate. Experience is just that. Seeing doesn&amp;#039;t see objects, the objects are the seeing. Hearing doesn&amp;#039;t hear sounds, the sound is the hearing... no separation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But in trying to understand it like that, it&amp;#039;s still the same old problem of the self trying to get it. Any effort made is blocking it from being made apparent when set up as &amp;#039;you&amp;#039; trying to &amp;#039;get there&amp;#039; in time. And this aspect of the teaching is where (for example) Jax was right (although he took it to an extreme and I ultimately didn&amp;#039;t agree with his view).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Understand that &amp;#039;you&amp;#039; are just a thought. The self is merely thoughts commenting on each other but thought A is never there at the same time as B so there is no consecutive chain of thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So luckily being that the &amp;#039;self&amp;#039; is only a thought(idea, concept), when thoughts aren&amp;#039;t being reified as belonging to a self they are just merely thoughts.. Just noise.. No one is thinking them, they just appear and vanish in the same moment. And for this reason merely resting in &amp;#034;awareness&amp;#034; or your &amp;#034;wakefulness&amp;#034; is actually allowing these faculties to arise in their suchness. If you rest in that unfabricated and uncontrived natural wakefulness and allow everything that arises to self liberate, the goal is to see that there is only this flow of arisings. The second part of your meditation where that element of pre-conceived forcing of the no-self view is taking place can actually go either way. It is conceptual and can be a potential trap but it all depends on how it&amp;#039;s related to; if as the meditation is going on and the &amp;#034;no-self view&amp;#034; is being forced the seemingness of the forcing comes across as &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; doing the forcing, then it becomes a trap.. because only &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; could force the view of &amp;#034;no-you&amp;#034;... it&amp;#039;s a trick of the self and actually keeps the illusion of self solidified and alive through that forcing. On the other hand, if while the forcing is going on, a recognition that in the forcing the forcing itself is simply spontaneously appearing itself and is spontaneously self-liberated then that is maintaining the view. The relaxed aspect of dzogchen is very key and is meant to reveal that the sum of these &amp;#034;aggregates&amp;#034; don&amp;#039;t create a self as an entity, but that the self IS simply these aggregates. I saw a talk the other day where someone put it like this; in a water molecule there is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen. The atoms don&amp;#039;t bond to form this &amp;#039;thing&amp;#039; called a water molecule.. the water molecule IS these constituent atoms. I don&amp;#039;t really do the analogy justice but here is a link to the mans talk &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;ted&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;talks&amp;#x2f;julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you"&gt;http://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing that I noticed in your message above is where you&amp;#039;re saying that the 5 senses produce their respective objects without a self to be found. This statement is actually stacking too much on top of the natural state as it is... if you can notice in immediate experience; the 5 senses as faculties are not present... the &amp;#039;5 senses&amp;#039; designation is merely a convention, which is useful for communication but lacks existence apart from it&amp;#039;s conventionality... likewise objects are designations implemented merely for conventional purposes(not to be denied, but seen for what they are as merely conventions). You&amp;#039;re already stepping toward trying to see the absence of the self in experience, but it would be helpful to see the senses and objects as empty as well. So what this means is that in your immediate experience there is no evidence of the self and there is no evidence of the senses and their respective objects. In immediate experience it is &amp;#034;just this&amp;#034; no self, no senses, no objects, just the natural state which is beyond designation. If you try to hard to &amp;#034;see it&amp;#034;, this is again the self trying to &amp;#034;see it&amp;#034;, it needs to be understood that it is already always the case. The senses don&amp;#039;t apprehend objects... the objects ARE the senses, the senses ARE the objects, and they are not two... but even this is saying too much.... it&amp;#039;s just BOOM right there, happening now. In the seeing just the seen, doesn&amp;#039;t imply that there are &amp;#034;things&amp;#034; which are seen... it just implies that it all contracts into a zero dimensional suchness... there&amp;#039;s no objective happening... it&amp;#039;s full union.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now as for the &amp;#034;awareness&amp;#034;... the awareness aspect can be solidified as a substantiated &amp;#039;thing-ness&amp;#039; as well... which was my beef with Jax&amp;#039;s insight again to use an example. The problem with the awareness is that due to certain kinesthetic sensations approximate to what we take as our body, we feel that awareness is seated &amp;#039;here&amp;#039; experiencing surrounding phenomena. So awareness is considered to be stationed or localized &amp;#039;here&amp;#039; instead of &amp;#039;there&amp;#039;. But this feeling of &amp;#039;hereness&amp;#039; is just this kinesthetic sensation coupled with the illusion of time. In truth the feeling of looking out from the vantage point of &amp;#039;here&amp;#039; is just a non-local &amp;#034;presence&amp;#034;, there is no here or there... here and there are merely thoughts. When the feeling of presence is felt, it doesn&amp;#039;t claim to be here or there or anywhere... if this can be intuitively understood then it can be seen that what appears, appears to itself and no distance from itself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #141823"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Helvetica&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;Arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;lucida&amp;#x20;grande&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;tahoma&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;verdana&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;arial&amp;#x2c;&amp;#x20;sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 12px"&gt;Coming back to the stabilization of &amp;#034;thought-flow&amp;#034; and clarity in samatha or shine meditation... this stabilization reduces the projection of designations by thought so experience can be rested in nakedly without too much distraction and for this reason it is very helpful. From there, resting in this &amp;#034;presence&amp;#034; you see that the &amp;#034;presence&amp;#034; IS the &amp;#034;appearances&amp;#034; and vice versa. Also, mere mindfulness will help stabilize this, even if it&amp;#039;s contrived or forced.... just remain present at all times... ChNN says to do it like you&amp;#039;re driving a car... just remain aware and focused at what&amp;#039;s happening around you, just be here. Even if it feels like there&amp;#039;s a &amp;#034;you&amp;#034; attempting to &amp;#034;be here&amp;#034; just let it be. In time this will also dawn true insight and the point is to have that innate and true insight apart from all of this intellectual crap i&amp;#039;m talking about... in just remaining present the meditation will start to work for itself and true insight will dawn on it&amp;#039;s own accord... so try not to be distracted, and practice that non-distraction like you&amp;#039;re doing it to save your life... like if you become distracted you&amp;#039;ll be killed, make it of utmost importance... maintaining that flow. Now when ChNN and dzogchen talk about remaining undistracted they don&amp;#039;t mean merely remaining present, they&amp;#039;re talking about not separating from the non-dual natural state once that becomes apparent. But luckily since the self and the senses and objects are mere imputed conventions, in the act of remaining present, the natural state is already implied... and the contrived mindful presence will just strengthen the connection with the natural state... it&amp;#039;s also almost like a process of reconfiguring, removing habits and tendencies to reify dualities which make a subject-object experience seem real. In time with being present, it will just happen... the feeling of being a subjective entity will just go. The &amp;#034;all-ground&amp;#034; or feeling of substantiated awareness happening here will melt into the natural state. Don&amp;#039;t be too contrived in your mindfulness, just be present, be relaxed, allow appearances to self-arise and self-liberate and remove the notion of time and space, know that this is indeed it right here, right now, but &amp;#034;feel&amp;#034; that... don&amp;#039;t convince yourself intellectually, be in the flow, be the flow.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2014 22:59:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5602050</guid> <dc:creator>An Eternal Now</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-09T22:59:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: watching moods shift</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599778</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Adam . .:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;some unorganized &lt;strong&gt;[but insightful] &lt;/strong&gt;observations:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My practice right now seems to be all about &amp;#034;moods,&amp;#034; watching them shift and change, seeing how they affect me and others, and trying to come out of unhappy moodiness whenever it arises. Moods seem to basically be just &amp;#034;pockets&amp;#034; of energy that I hold back from whatever situation I am in. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They express their energy mostly through thinking, and they can switch the topic of that thinking given some external trigger. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sometimes they just seem to lift and I can suddenly give myself to whatever situation I am in, sometimes they stick around longer than it seems like they should and I try various practices to come out of them. One thing I try is to simply remember that they are temporary and that I wasn&amp;#039;t in one a little while ago and I won&amp;#039;t be in one shortly, also I try to just cut off whatever thinking they are engaging in, or to just observe their energy in my body. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also notice that sometimes when a mood has been sticking around for a while and I have been observing it and trying to dissolve it that it might actually be that my thinking about the mood and trying different things on it is what is keeping it going. I think that sometimes I am just thinking about moods and about being present to dissolve them and not actually doing it in a way that really has a strong effect. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sometimes it also seems that the willingness to escape the mood is absent and that is confusing. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When they are really strong then sometimes that leads to my priorities changing and the only thing that matters is getting out of the mood, and in that case I can just direct my attention to the present and away from the thoughts and that does the trick.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s emotions like those where I simply concentrate away from the thoughts and emotions until they subside, but they are quite tricky. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All of these are &lt;em&gt;very&lt;/em&gt; good observations. The fact that you are aware of these events at their subtle level of arising speaks well for your practice. The fix that you are seeking involves gaining wisdom with regard to each of these events as they arise and realizing that these events have nothing to do with a &amp;#034;me, myself, or I.&amp;#034; If you can get to the point where equanimity is applied each time that one of these events arises, you will begin to see, with wisdom, the origin of the event and realize &lt;strong&gt;that you do not have to identify with it&lt;/strong&gt;.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It isn&amp;#039;t so much that you &lt;em&gt;apply&lt;/em&gt; equanimity (consciously), but that the impression of equanimity arises on its own due to wisdom with regard to what is occurring, &lt;em&gt;because you see what is occurring with insight and comprehension of what it truly is&lt;/em&gt;. Sometimes, though, in the beginning of learning and practicing this, you may have to apply equanimity consciously in order to keep yourself grounded (i.e., not let yourself fly off the handle emotionally one way or the other, but realizing that maintaining an even and balanced mental keel is best). Yet, eventually, once your mindfulness has become more developed as an ongoing present-moment process, equanimity will arise on its own as you see, with insight, the origin of the factors that led to the arising of the mood, and therefore see the mood for what it truly is and are able to let go of it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With wisdom, you will see that the event &lt;strong&gt;is merely a mental formation&lt;/strong&gt;, created in the mind and triggered by an outside occurrence from which you associated a feeling (&lt;em&gt;vedana&lt;/em&gt;) of either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral liking, disliking, or neutrality toward the occurrence. Once you are able to reach down and become &lt;strong&gt;mindful&lt;/strong&gt; of this level of subtlety and insight in your practice, these moods, when they arise, will not last very long because you will have seen through their illusion and realized that they are not real and have no substance. They will disappear of their own volition. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is difficult to explain without bringing up an example that one can relate to. Because, until one makes the initial breakthrough in insight, everyone reacts differently to various stimuli. Meaning that you may or may not understand the example being pointed to. Yet, I will endeavor to provide an example similar to what I am speaking about.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let&amp;#039;s say that you just got fired from your job, and that event gave rise to a feeling (&lt;em&gt;vedana&lt;/em&gt;) that was unpleasant with regard to the event. That unpleasant feeling, in turn, gives rise to negative emotions and a perception of (identification with) depression over the event. If you allow that negativity and depression to overwhelm you, you will not be able to deal effectively with finding a solution to the event.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is where equanimity enters the picture. If you can see where this feeling and these negative emotions had their origin, you can begin to deal equanimously with the matter. The unpleasant feeling and negative thoughts &lt;strong&gt;are merely mental formations &lt;/strong&gt;which you can either identify with (i.e., hold onto) or let go of. If you let go of these, then you will be able to deal more effectively with the aftermath of the event, which is to locate new employment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;By being able to see with clarity (wisdom) the arising of these negative elements in your perception, you are able to resist identification with them and thus lessen their effect on you. That is, these moods will be less likely to arise, and you will be able to get on with your life in a positive manner.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 14:40:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599778</guid> <dc:creator>Ian And</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T14:40:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: watching moods shift</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599616</link> <description>Yeah, I hear ya. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt; I think the reason it worked for me was because I truly believed it at the time, which can be hard to do.  Like, you might understand perfectly that the feelings are in the way, but unless there&amp;#039;s a visceral understanding - like that kick in the stomach, &amp;#034;oh, yeah!&amp;#034; type thing - then it probably will just make you feel worse to ruminate about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The main problem is the rumination, so once you understand you don&amp;#039;t need the emotion, it gives you permission to forget about it.  Actively forgetting becomes the key at that point.  When it comes back into your head, you can allow yourself to let it go, you don&amp;#039;t have to give it any more of your time.  This might repeat a few times, but eventually it stops coming back.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s helpful to &amp;#034;get the message&amp;#034; as well.  If you can allow the feeling to present all of the fears connected to it without trying to stop them, it tends to relax the emotion itself.  I like to think of it like this: a mind with negative emotions is in the middle of a debate.  Things like fear and anger happen when one part of the brain is trying to ignore another part of the brain.  If you let the emotion through and let it present its case, then it won&amp;#039;t feel the need to shout anymore.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There&amp;#039;s something very powerful about opening yourself up completely like that.  It feels a bit raw at first, but then the emotions settle down and you realize you were able to do it without turning away from things.  Old stuff comes up, but it doesn&amp;#039;t have the emotional component - you&amp;#039;ve already gone through the emotion, so it&amp;#039;s behind you.  It&amp;#039;s very freeing to realize you don&amp;#039;t have to run away or fight with yourself anymore - you can just let the mind do its thing.  Just consider, what&amp;#039;s the easiest thing you could do when you feel trapped by a bad mood?  If you&amp;#039;re trying to hold the feelings away, you&amp;#039;re adding a struggle on top of the bad feeling.  If you focus in on it and let it take you over, you&amp;#039;re just feeding it.  Instead, you can just let go of control and allow it to give you the full message.  I&amp;#039;ve been suprised by what my feelings had to say on a number of occasions, and it ended up being much easier to diffuse them than I thought.  Like, I used to think I just had this formless anxiety hanging over me that came from nowhere.  After letting it in and examining it, I realized it was actually a kind of OCD where I was trying to avoid touching certain things.  I never would have imagined that was the cause of my problem before, but now it&amp;#039;s easy to let go of it right when I notice it.  I just touch the thing I was subconsiously avoiding, haha.  Like I said before, that&amp;#039;s probably ideosyncratic to me, but I&amp;#039;m sure everyone can make these kinds of discoveries.  If you&amp;#039;re having trouble with an emotion that keeps coming back, there&amp;#039;s probably something repressed that&amp;#039;s trying to get out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s a delicate dance though.  Very tricky, like you said. </description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 08:55:15 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599616</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T08:55:15Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: watching moods shift</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599581</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;You can change these moods by reasoning through the cause and realizing the mood itself isn&amp;#039;t useful.  For example, I used to worry about time a great deal - I felt like I was going to run out of money, or I wasn&amp;#039;t going to finish the projects I wanted to do.  After a bit of thinking, I realized that this mood, specifically, was preventing me from doing the things that would prevent the negtive outcome I was imagining.  I was prevented from working hard because the anxiety itself created such an aversion to work.  This made it much easier to let go of the anxiety.  It&amp;#039;s like the observation you made that we hold on to our moods.  A good way to look at it is probably that these moods are actually caused by us to help us to remember to do something or act a certain way.  If you can delegitimize the purpose of the mood, it is much easier to let it dissolve because you won&amp;#039;t feel like it&amp;#039;s important.  For me, the key is allowing myself to trust my future self to handle whatever situation arises.  That way I don&amp;#039;t have to rehearse for anything.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don&amp;#039;t you sometimes try to do this and it completely doesn&amp;#039;t work though? The other day I was having a bit of insomnia and i kept trying to consider the fact that staying up worrying would only make things worse, it really seemed to have no effect at all though. It&amp;#039;s times like that when I attempt a &amp;#034;body-focus&amp;#034; strategy. I think insomnia is probably the best example of the type of emotions I really have trouble with. It&amp;#039;s the ones where I really have a strong sense of not wanting it to be there, a really strong logical understanding that it isn&amp;#039;t helpful, but it tenaciously hangs on or gets even worse... This happens in a very similar way with depressed feelings, i know it only makes things worse but it just won&amp;#039;t budge. Kind of like a chinese finger trap as someone once mentioned on the DhO. It&amp;#039;s emotions like those where I simply concentrate away from the thoughts and emotions until they subside, but they are quite tricky.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2014 05:28:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599581</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-06T05:28:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: watching moods shift</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599350</link> <description>This sounds very similar to my practice.  You wrote out a lot of the observations I&amp;#039;ve made too, haha!  Kind of fun to meet a fellow traveler.  Here are some things that might be useful:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve noticed that my moods tend to be caused by a few reliable specific things.  One is a sense of urgency, like I don&amp;#039;t have time to do what I need, or there is some deadline I must meet, one is a discomfort with my environment, and one is a feeling that I need to protect my social standing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can change these moods by reasoning through the cause and realizing the mood itself isn&amp;#039;t useful.  For example, I used to worry about time a great deal - I felt like I was going to run out of money, or I wasn&amp;#039;t going to finish the projects I wanted to do.  After a bit of thinking, I realized that this mood, specifically, was preventing me from doing the things that would prevent the negtive outcome I was imagining.  I was prevented from working hard because the anxiety itself created such an aversion to work.  This made it much easier to let go of the anxiety.  It&amp;#039;s like the observation you made that we hold on to our moods.  A good way to look at it is probably that these moods are actually caused by us to help us to remember to do something or act a certain way.  If you can delegitimize the purpose of the mood, it is much easier to let it dissolve because you won&amp;#039;t feel like it&amp;#039;s important.  For me, the key is allowing myself to trust my future self to handle whatever situation arises.  That way I don&amp;#039;t have to rehearse for anything.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing that might be useful is something the stoics talk about.  They realized that almost all of our anger is caused by other people, and the source of our anger is the feeling that we&amp;#039;ve been insulted.  This has to do with the &amp;#034;social hierarchy game&amp;#034; we play.  We are constantly monitoring our place in a kind of social pecking order, and when we feel someone is making a move to a position above us (usually by putting us down or comparing us negatively to themself) we feel we must protect our position by creating our own insults.  This often plays out in a very subtle way.  They came up with a brilliant solution to this - insult pascifism.  By simply refusing to play the game, there is no need to struggle to keep your place, and insults have no effect.  Their advice is twofold - if you are insulted, you can simply go on as if nothing happened, but if you must respond, you can insult yourself worse than the person who insulted you did.  It sounds a bit odd, but it works well in practice.  You&amp;#039;ll never feel flustered or angry, and you won&amp;#039;t feel the need to ruminate about the past, simply because you&amp;#039;ve decided that your position doens&amp;#039;t matter in any way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My second reason above might me more idosynchratic to me, but I realized a lot of my physical tension and discomfort came from being uncomfrotable where I was physically. Just realizing this one seemed to help diffuse it, especially if I intentionally touched things I thought were dirty, or I let myself really embed the space I was in.  This is also related to how others might see me in a specific situation, as well - like I might feel it&amp;#039;s nescessary to be &amp;#034;on my best behavior&amp;#034; or to adopt the personality and attitude of the people around me.  This relates to the point above, though, and letting go of the idea that other people must recognise some level of worth or merit makes it easy to be content in social situations - even when other people are very negative.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Finally, it seems that adopting an attitude of trust and benevolence, as well as curiosity, makes it much easier to diffuse the negative moods.  It&amp;#039;s like you said, the rumination about the moods often is what perpetuates them.  If you can work through the cause of the mood without trying to change it actively, that seems to be the quickest exit.  A good combination of acceptance and reorganization of beliefs and priorities.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2014 21:41:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599350</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-05T21:41:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>watching moods shift</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599242</link> <description>some unorganized observations:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My practice right now seems to be all about &amp;#034;moods,&amp;#034; watching them shift and change, seeing how they affect me and others, and trying to come out of unhappy moodiness whenever it arises. Moods seem to basically be just &amp;#034;pockets&amp;#034; of energy that I hold back from whatever situation I am in. They express their energy mostly through thinking, and they can switch the topic of that thinking given some external trigger. Sometimes they just seem to lift and I can suddenly give myself to whatever situation I am in, sometimes they stick around longer than it seems like they should and I try various practices to come out of them. One thing I try is to simply remember that they are temporary and that I wasn&amp;#039;t in one a little while ago and I won&amp;#039;t be in one shortly, also I try to just cut off whatever thinking they are engaging in, or to just observe their energy in my body. I also notice that sometimes when a mood has been sticking around for a while and I have been observing it and trying to dissolve it that it might actually be that my thinking about the mood and trying different things on it is what is keeping it going. I think that sometimes I am just thinking about moods and about being present to dissolve them and not actually doing it in a way that really has a strong effect. Sometimes it also seems that the willingness to escape the mood is absent and that is confusing. When they are really strong then sometimes that leads to my priorities changing and the only thing that matters is getting out of the mood, and in that case I can just direct my attention to the present and away from the thoughts and that does the trick.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2014 19:08:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5599242</guid> <dc:creator>Adam . .</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-10-05T19:08:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593036</link> <description>Hey Zed,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes that&amp;#039;s currently what I believe. Most of my practice was absorption-based (sustained energy lead to bliss), and not vipassana-like or deconstructive.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;James</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:28:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593036</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T18:28:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593020</link> <description>James,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Have you considered the simple, logical possibility that you are not awakened, nor you landed any path? The description of these attainments is that they involve a permanent shift in perception. By construction. And nice and pleasant breakthroughs, which require some form of sustained energy, are normally described as absorption states as opposed to insight stages. Don&amp;#039;t get me wrong, I cannot know what you achieved, I just recalled what is routinely said in such contexts.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:21:26 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5593020</guid> <dc:creator>Zed Z</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T18:21:26Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592886</link> <description>I can&amp;#039;t speak about this from personal experience, so I have to reference what other awakened people have said. That said, it really does explain a lot. Andrew Cohen, Trungpa, Adi da, etc. etc. All seem to be people that have had significant awakenings yet have screwed up. Ken Wilber also mentions that with awakening, the &amp;#034;darth vader&amp;#034; option is always possible, its sort of like &amp;#034;power corrupts&amp;#034; in conventional life. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course, you could make a tautological statement that &amp;#034;full awakening&amp;#034; results in &amp;#034;full elimination of shadow side&amp;#034;, but then it begs the question -- does someone have full awakening? My best guess (admittedly based on ignorance) is that full awakening is possible if conditions of experience are held constant (e.g. in a monastic situation). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But even Buddha had times when he caught &amp;#034;Mara&amp;#034; trying to corrupt him. lthough he was a monastic, he was actively involved with creating a society and navigating the power structures of the time. I&amp;#039;m sure if he stayed on mostly solitary retreat, he wouldn&amp;#039;t have seen mara anymore. But because he was developing means to help other&amp;#039;s suffering, he was innovating, and conditions of experience weren&amp;#039;t constant.  So I don&amp;#039;t think even full awakening means there will be no more challenges to one&amp;#039;s realization.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ultimately it&amp;#039;s maybe an interesting thought problem, but I guess that&amp;#039;s all it is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;p.s. I did some googling and came across this... kinda interesting discussion of mara:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmalife&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;issue25&amp;#x2f;devil&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;http://www.dharmalife.com/issue25/devil.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&amp;#039;To me the Buddha and the devil, or Mara, are two modes of a single organism. The Buddha is the capacity of that organism to open, Mara is its capacity to shut down. And that is non-dualistic because there&amp;#039;s only the one organism, the human being. Traditional Buddhism has succumbed to a dualism, that the Buddha is good, Mara is bad. The Buddha is perfectly good; in his idealised perfection, he is no longer quite human. Mara is this figure the Buddha overcomes. Good and evil are split off from one another in orthodox Buddhism.&amp;#039;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmalife&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;issue25&amp;#x2f;devil&amp;#x2e;html"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:36:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592886</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T12:36:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592835</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;The best &amp;#034;model&amp;#034; I&amp;#039;ve seen for this was described by Ken McLeod. Basically, insight is permanent,&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; but the freed energy goes into the remaining unawake reactivity.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt; So the insights don&amp;#039;t solve everything and in fact can make things worse. Lingering greed, hatred, and delusion can be abe triggered with even greater intensity. Frankly it explains a lot about teachers which seem to be awake, but f##k-up royally.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Um, I don&amp;#039;t know about this.  This doesn&amp;#039;t seem true to me at all.  I think this might be true during the review cycles after each path or during the immediate aftermath of certain stages of realization, or even the final stage of realization, but I doubt it is very long-lasting in most cases.  You did use the word &amp;#034;remaining unawake,&amp;#034; but even the final stage of realization creates a causal inertia where continued reactive patterns can continue for a bit longer.  However, they tend to lose steam fairly quickly.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:22:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592835</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T08:22:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592822</link> <description>&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;x x, I really value your contributions to DhO. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;How can a fully enlightened person still have psychological shadow issues, or at least be reactive to those issues? You imply that they can even get bigger after awakening/s.  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I&amp;#039;m familiar with most of the incidents that happen to so called &amp;#034;enlightened masters&amp;#034;. The question remains, were they really fully enlightened whatever that means or they didn&amp;#039;t clean up their attic to the full.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:34:28 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592822</guid> <dc:creator>ftw</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-26T07:34:28Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592336</link> <description>It&amp;#039;s worth bothering because it&amp;#039;s worth having better problems, even if problems themselves never go away completely. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The bolded sentence means that psychological shadow issues can become even bigger after spiritual insights/awakenings. You might just sort of be a negative renunciate, but that can blossom into a kind of dogmatic renunciate identity after awakening. Likewise, you could be an indulge the richness of life kind of person, but that can blossom into hedonism after awakening. Or you could have issues around being right or an authority and that could blossom into a repressive heirarchical cult that you create. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is why morality is first and last training. It&amp;#039;s very easy to avoid stuff when you have good concentration and awareness, at least for a little while. Then it can crash down, leaving a lot of wreckage. It&amp;#039;s important to be humble and realize that awakening isn&amp;#039;t a get out of jail free card.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:44:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592336</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T12:44:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592329</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;x x:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The best &amp;#034;model&amp;#034; I&amp;#039;ve seen for this was described by Ken McLeod. Basically, insight is permanent,&lt;strong&gt; but the freed energy goes into the remaining unawake reactivity.&lt;/strong&gt; So the insights don&amp;#039;t solve everything and in fact can make things worse. Lingering greed, hatred, and delusion can be abe triggered with even greater intensity. Frankly it explains a lot about teachers which seem to be awake, but f##k-up royally.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hmm, why even bother then?&lt;br /&gt;Subquestion:&lt;br /&gt;What is the meaning of bolded sentence?</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:17:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592329</guid> <dc:creator>ftw</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T12:17:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592309</link> <description>The best &amp;#034;model&amp;#034; I&amp;#039;ve seen for this was described by Ken McLeod. Basically, insight is permanent, but the freed energy goes into the remaining unawake reactivity. So the insights don&amp;#039;t solve everything and in fact can make things worse. Lingering greed, hatred, and delusion can be abe triggered with even greater intensity. Frankly it explains a lot about teachers which seem to be awake, but f##k-up royally.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:47:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592309</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T11:47:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592303</link> <description>I tend to think that there is a psychological version of cycling that is very similar to meditation cycling. Similar dynamic of effort, wild experience, and crash. In extreme forms it&amp;#039;s easy to simply say: bipolar or manic depression. But for the rest of humanity, most people seem to be in an in less volitile state of this kind of ambition-crash cycle. Not quite meditation related, more like &amp;#034;introspection&amp;#034; related.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That said, it does seem like you&amp;#039;re on the ride. Or at least that meditation seems like good medicine for you right now. Don&amp;#039;t make it into a big holy deal, just add a regular sitting practice. Probably the most simple practice of sitting and letting your mind bubble away and noticing it is all that is needed right now.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If it seems like meditation is useful to you, find a good teacher. You can get some good benefits from simple mindfulness practice, but if the drive is to push on, have someone you can check in with. Seems like you have the more &amp;#034;wild&amp;#034; versions of these experiences, so having a teacher (and normal support in life) will help a lot. Working with a teacher is the most painless way to go.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:41:40 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5592303</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T11:41:40Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591972</link> <description>Hello all,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for responding, it seems that everyone is pointing to the idea that there &lt;strong&gt;are&lt;/strong&gt; permanent, irreversible changes that can be arrived at through practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ok cool. I often have a fear of regression, so I&amp;#039;m often worried about slipping back. Just today I laxed my energy as much as I could and I totally felt out of sync and in the shits, it was quite unpleasant. I roused myself again and then I felt better. Perhaps I tighten the energy too much? Excessive strenuity is mentioned in the Pali Canon. I feel better now though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks again.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:20:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591972</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T05:20:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591891</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;I don&amp;#039;t feel any sort of permanent shift, is there such thing as a concrete, permanent shift that does not require practice to maintain? I need complete honesty here.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes. It isn&amp;#039;t just that no effort is required. Once you see it, it seems like it can&amp;#039;t be unseen.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 05:08:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591891</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T05:08:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591791</link> <description>Paths should not require even an iota of practice to maintain.  The longest I&amp;#039;ve gone without doing any practice at all is close to almost two years, although within the last week I&amp;#039;ve started sitting again.  I never experienced even a miniscule amount of regression past the point of the last cycle obtained in any of about three long duration breaks I&amp;#039;ve taken.. &lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Also, things like depression or other mental illness symptoms can still occur in the context of a permanent realization.  Although, there may be some differences in terms of intensity and duration.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If your enlightenment goes away when you stop practicing then you&amp;#039;re, at least, not practicing in accordance to the vipassana method or the methods of MCTB.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:38:57 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591791</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T04:38:57Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591771</link> <description>I&amp;#039;ve been able to perminantly alter my perception of spiders.  Maybe this seems conventional, but if I can completely remove that fear, specifically, why not all fears?  They all seem to be based on the same kinds of perceptions.  Anger, too, is slipping away.  I&amp;#039;ll let you know if it lasts. &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/closed_eyes.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think this stuff can be pretty straightforward if you want it to be.  Maybe instead of looking at states to monitor your progress, just look to see how you feel abot things that used to bother you.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 04:15:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591771</guid> <dc:creator>Not Tao</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T04:15:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Are awakening (states) permanent?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591735</link> <description>If I don&amp;#039;t practice, my awakening goes away. I don&amp;#039;t feel any sort of permanent shift, is there such thing as a concrete, permanent shift that does not require practice to maintain? I need complete honesty here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Many of the &amp;#034;breakthroughs&amp;#034; that I had were very nice and pleasant, but without sustained energy, these states drop away. Does anyone have any sort of permanent shift that allows laxity after obtaining it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dogen does not seem to think so, Ken Wilber seems to think that waking up is state training, and that states are not real permanent &amp;#034;growth&amp;#034; changes, Richard from the AFT seems to think that an altered state of consciousness takes a lot of effort to maintain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What do you think?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In general if I practice I&amp;#039;m happy, fluid, malleable, smooth etc. I&amp;#039;m on top of things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Lacking striving I become depressed an in pain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thoughts?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Edit: Also, I take medication. If I stop, (surprise surprise) I feel bad, and depression kicks in. If I resume medication, I feel great!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here the Buddha records how he dwells nearly constantly in mental concentration:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;gyazo&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;a523104bba75f79796486a9c3b1bd888&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here it is implied:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;gyazo&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;ddebb6124c685f36275c705f9a1f6e51&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:27:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591735</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T03:27:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591732</link> <description>Yeah when I got back from that Goenka course a couple weeks ago after the lights in my minds eye on the last day I had tons of crazy astrol projection type lucid dreams and then I became depressed again and it was really hard to even get to the cushion but when I did there were a lot of places that I was able to perceive subtle sensations before that I couldn&amp;#039;t feel anymore and after like 15 minutes I was sure it&amp;#039;d been 45 and I couldn&amp;#039;t focus so I would just give up every time lol.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 03:25:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591732</guid> <dc:creator>Bronson Michael Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T03:25:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591721</link> <description>Tingling is the vibrations and vice versa.  At a gross level they may feel like pinpricks, like a shiver going up your spine.  But other times, like in A&amp;amp;P and equanimity, they can get much more subtle and they become more obviously vibrations.  Eventually when you get the hang of it you can look at pretty much any sensation any time and feel it vibrating away.  You kinda learn what to look for, and having taken a Goenka course, then this is what he means by Anicca.  When something vibrates, it&amp;#039;s changing.  Also what you saw in your mind&amp;#039;s eye, the light flashing, I would call that vibrations too and it can either be fast or slow.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From your descriptions, I&amp;#039;d say you&amp;#039;ve crossed the A&amp;amp;P, but as someone suggested, reread the stages of insight section and see what clicks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another thing you can look for: when your feeling depressed and try to meditate, what is your meditation like?  Do things seem foggy and really hard to apprehend.  Like you try to observe your leg (or any part), but it somehow resists being observed, or your mind won&amp;#039;t grasp it?  Or does the &amp;#034;flow&amp;#034; of your meditation feel choppy or edgy, or do you get drowsy quickly when you weren&amp;#039;t tired before?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;T</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:44:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591721</guid> <dc:creator>Teague</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T02:44:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591709</link> <description>Thank you for your replies! I appreciate it! If I could just ask... how do you percieve the different vibrations of different stages? I can feel my whole body tingling and when I get really concentrated sometimes it feels like certain parts dissolve and dissapear but I don&amp;#039;t ever sence vibrations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also for anybody that does Samadhi practice how long does it usually take to get to say the second Jhana if you practice 1.5 - 2 hours per day?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks again!</description> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2014 02:11:21 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591709</guid> <dc:creator>Bronson Michael Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-25T02:11:21Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591532</link> <description>Interesting post!  I have heard lucid dreaming can have dangers, interesting to hear about your experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I like that quote, &amp;#039;Best not to begin, but once you have begun, better to finish&amp;#039;  Here&amp;#039;s a quote about it I saw the other day:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;The spiritual path is not fun - better not begin it. If you must begin, then go all the way, because if you begin and quit, the unfinished business you have left behind begins to haunt you all the time. The path, as Suzuki Roshi mentions in &amp;#039;Zen Mind, Beginner&amp;#039;s Mind,&amp;#039; is like getting on to a train that you cannot get off; you ride it on and on and on.&amp;#034; - Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That seems to sum it up pretty well; once you start looking at your problems of perception, start focusing on the way your mind is tricky and out of control, you start to notice it more and more, and it starts look like an issue.  The fact is the only way you will get anywhere on the path is if you truly want to change your mind badly enough that you force yourself to put in the hard effort it takes to make progress.  If your mind&amp;#039;s not a problem, you probably won&amp;#039;t get anywhere because you have no reason to practice.  If you do get somewhere, it&amp;#039;s very likely because your mind was such a problem it forced you to take action.  The path is unpleasant, and you don&amp;#039;t undertake it without a reason.  If you feel driven to meditate to improve your mind &lt;em&gt;because you want out&lt;/em&gt;, you&amp;#039;re on the ride as I see it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for being in the cycles; what you should do to determine that is go read the chapter in Mastering the Core Teaching&amp;#039;s of the Buddha where it talks about cycles and the stages of insight, and see how they resonates with you.  If it does truly resonate with you, then trust yourself, you are probably somewhere on the map.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mediation wise, stick with what you know and feels good.  If you took a Goenka course it seems you have a prety solid foundation in training, so go with it unless you really feel otherwise.  Personally I would say don&amp;#039;t worry too much about concentration specifically; practicing vipassina/noticing sensations will naturally improve your concentration.  The key thing is to practice consistently.  Maintain the continuity of mindfullness; that&amp;#039;s how you build up steam.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 21:13:20 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591532</guid> <dc:creator>T DC</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T21:13:20Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591504</link> <description>&amp;#034;gap&amp;#034; between thoughts is mind dharma door, imho it has to be realized not longed or widened, to be able to dwell in there and you will notice you can dwell in there and think at the same time.&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;gap&amp;#034; basically is You, try to be it. letting go of whatever there is or try to make your precision strong(try everything you can). Basically what holding you back is the remains of your wrong attention or take to the reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;the gap between thoughts is same as the gaps between sounds you hear or feelings you feel, breaths. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;looking at the gap is same as you would looking at the mirror. Tho it is useful for examining myself.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:32:35 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591504</guid> <dc:creator>Rist Ei</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T19:32:35Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591460</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Bronson Michael Miller:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I want to know if I&amp;#039;ve already started but I can&amp;#039;t tell. I don&amp;#039;t really notice the different vibrations in different stages. The only thing I notice is that sometimes I&amp;#039;m really energetic and outgoing for a while and then I have a bunch of crazy astrol projection type lucid dreams and then I&amp;#039;m depressed for long period of time but maybe that&amp;#039;s just how I am?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Greetings Michael&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I cannot give you any advice regarding cycles, A&amp;amp;P and any other terminology used here on the site, but I can however give you a personal advice regarding your last sentence: &amp;#034;Maybe that&amp;#039;s just how I am&amp;#034;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I humbly and whole-heartedly recommend you to inquiry into this idea, the idea that you are a something, and that something causes lucid dreams and periods with high energy followed by depressions. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another suggestion could be that complex patterns of evaluations, of thoughts, of expectations and defence mechanisms aquired and formed through birth and growing up in a world not always loving and friendly, has something to do with these periods of ups and downs in your life. That they are nestled in this seemingly causal web of why things happen.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also would say that the quote about &amp;#034;best not to begin&amp;#034; only holds true if your world view is latched onto the idea that life is a race towards something at a certain velocity and once you enter this race this idea of yourself, have to get going on the race until the end. This something could be an experience, a distinct way of experiencing the world, a different perception, etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I shared similar worries regarding the &amp;#034;best not to begin&amp;#034; after having experienced certain phases of dissolution, of disenchantment and in hindsight these worries for me were emotions of fear latched onto an idea, nothing more or less and as the fear naturally dissolved, so did the idea. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wish you all the best on your path, whatever it might take you :-)</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 18:10:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591460</guid> <dc:creator>Albin Hagberg Medin</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T18:10:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591434</link> <description>I want to know if I&amp;#039;ve already started but I can&amp;#039;t tell. I don&amp;#039;t really notice the different vibrations in different stages. The only thing I notice is that sometimes I&amp;#039;m really energetic and outgoing for a while and then I have a bunch of crazy astrol projection type lucid dreams and then I&amp;#039;m depressed for long period of time but maybe that&amp;#039;s just how I am?</description> <pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 17:19:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5591434</guid> <dc:creator>Bronson Michael Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-24T17:19:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Best not to begin.... But have I already begun?</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5590618</link> <description>Hello! &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My name is Bronson. I live in a super mormon town in Utah and it is very hard to find anybody that knows anything about meditation anywhere near me. I am really trying to figure out if I&amp;#039;ve already entered the insight cycle or crossed the A&amp;amp;P.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve only started meditating recently (half a year or so) and only doing concentration type meditation for the most part put I read the MCTB a couple times and there were some things that got me thinking. So here&amp;#039;s a brief summary of noteworthy events in my life:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;age 13: Did mushrooms with my mom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;age 16: Taking a nap then I wake up and look around only to realize that I&amp;#039;m not in my body so I try really hard to wake up but then I just feel like I&amp;#039;m sinking into the couch and I get sleep peralisis and get really scared for a few minutes until I wake up and look around at the room exactly as it was while &amp;#034;sleeping&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;25: I&amp;#039;ve always had VERY vivid dreams and been fascinated with them but when I was 25 I started reading about astral projection and was intrigued and in order to prove to myself that it&amp;#039;s bogas I practiced every night for an hour or two before bed. This leads to a few times where I&amp;#039;m not sure if I was OBEing or just dreaming but would dream shortly after but the main thing was that I started having lucid dreams every single night for what seemed like all night. I eventually got so good at them that I could control everything from lighting, flying, breathing under water, going to places I knew, seeing people I knew, walking through walls etc but then I started to get confused when awake. I could never tell if I was asleep or awake and a lot of my dreams seemed to come true so it was like a constant dream/deja vu state and it freaked me out. I felt like I was losing my mind so I stopped the thing altogether and Immediately afterwards started using drugs pretty heavily and got suicidally depressed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;28: Started meditating. Read MCTB and noticed these stages in my life that seem Bi-polar like may be A&amp;amp;P/Dark Night. Became fascinated with this whole concept but afraid to start it because if I haven&amp;#039;t reached A&amp;amp;P yet I&amp;#039;d like to start AFTER I become more stable. I start Samadhi practice and then last week I did a ten day Goenka retreat. The only notable thing that happened was a couple times it was like life was a strobe light flickering several times per second and once I felt a strong pressure between my eyebrows and my nerves all up and down my body felt electric and started making tiny parts twitch and release wierd tensions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now: I feel like I may already be in the cycle and if so I really want to practice noting but if not I&amp;#039;ll just work on concentration for now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Any input would be greatly appreciated!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Other minor questions: I don&amp;#039;t notice any changes in meditation other than sometimes I can sit for an hour without moving and sometimes ten minutes is really hard but my life definately goes through stages where I&amp;#039;m really upbeat and happy then very depressed/use drugs and sometimes I just decide to move to a new city or country for a while. Is this just because I&amp;#039;m wierd or maybe part of the cycle?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Should I practice concentration for a while anyway to get it stronger? And what&amp;#039;s the best way to do this? right now I just focus on my breath and follow it from the bottom to the top and watch the pauses. Staying with it the whole time and trying to get the &amp;#034;gap&amp;#034; to increase between thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks very much!! Again I have no acccess to any real people in this town so I appreciate it more than I can express!!</description> <pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2014 23:08:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5590618</guid> <dc:creator>Bronson Michael Miller</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-23T23:08:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584386</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thank you for your response. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Was it the &amp;#034;big&amp;#034; Dark Night of second path that made your life miserable, or was it cycling through &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; DNs in review? It sucks, I&amp;#039;ll admit. I&amp;#039;ve been a dark night yogi for two years now.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well the pre-path one sucked, the 2nd path one sucked more, and after that it just sort of kept perpetually sucking and I kept getting dragged into that unpleasant morass. I thought that I had to continue to get the dark nights to stop, but then I realized that I could just stop meditating, instead, and deal with all the fallouts of that. It took a while to stop meditating after having done it almost non-stop for over a year, and I still suffer some after-effects, but the cycling has stopped.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I hope whatever path you choose brings you happiness.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Likewise for you!</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:23:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584386</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T17:23:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584367</link> <description>Thank you for your response. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Was it the &amp;#034;big&amp;#034; Dark Night of second path that made your life miserable, or was it cycling through &amp;#034;small&amp;#034; DNs in review? It sucks, I&amp;#039;ll admit. I&amp;#039;ve been a dark night yogi for two years now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope whatever path you choose brings you happiness.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 16:50:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584367</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T16:50:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584287</link> <description>Hi Eric,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I also found this one by Beoman in another thread:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;After my stream entry I was very hyper-charged and energetic. My first review phase was amazing and I could fruition at will doing just about anything. I would totally show off with it, too. Like I would be like &amp;#034;ok I&amp;#039;m gonna lean back in my chair, hang my head upside down, then have a fruition just for the heck of it&amp;#034;, and then I would do exactly that. Great stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4876916&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;My question to Beoman remains-- why the sudden shift in opinion on the benefits of meditation? Vipassana seems to provide a whole lot of fun, interesting, and profound levels of experience. I am curious as to why this is a bad thing. I do not mean to come off as confrontational. Rather, I simply do not want to be fooled into taking a path that seems fun but is really not worth the trouble.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s a good question. For part of the answer you need look no further than the next paragraph from this post you quoted. The next paragraph I wrote is (emphasis added):&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Encouraged by that ease of mental manipulation, I decided to make as rapid progress as I could through the next cycle. &lt;strong&gt;Things started falling apart pretty quickly, though, and I got myself into a pretty unpleasant state&lt;/strong&gt; wherein I would be making rapid progress through the cycles, yet &lt;strong&gt;I would also be in a lot of pain as a result of not going through it all carefully&lt;/strong&gt;. I would say to take your time and really investigate, and heed well Daniel&amp;#039;s advice in this easy-to-miss sentence of his:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;On the other hand, even if you gain all kinds of strong concentration, look deeply into impermanence, suffering and no-self, but can&amp;#039;t just open to these things, can&amp;#039;t just let them be, can&amp;#039;t accept the sometimes absurd and frightening truths of your experience, then &lt;strong&gt;you will likely be stuck in hell until you can&lt;/strong&gt;, particularly in the higher stages of insight practices.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also at the end of that post I allude to the reason that I stopped meditating:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Good luck, and I would recommend you &lt;strong&gt;reflect often and well on what exactly your motivations are for pursuing this - that is, what you expect to get out of it - and what you are currently getting out of it, and whether those two are matching up&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically, what I wanted to get out of meditation, and the actual results I was getting, were not matching up. I started meditating because I saw that there was much more to life - that it was possible to lead a much better life than I was - and I wanted to lead that better life. There were initial successes, though nothing definitive. Then I found MCTB and my life quickly became more and more miserable - commonly termed the Dark Night. I pushed through it and got stream entry, which was quite an accomplishment, I felt awesome about it, and I felt awesome for a brief period. But then the Dark Nights continued - the post above described what happened after stream entry, not before. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I had been pushing for a while and being miserable for a while. Then I learned about actualism, and recognized somehow that that&amp;#039;s what I wanted. What Richard was writing about, seemed to align much better with what I initially got into meditation for. However, I was misled - doesn&amp;#039;t matter whether it was intentional or not - and was practicing &amp;#034;aff&amp;#034; (mostly with Trent as a guide), and not actualism. It took me visiting Richard &amp;amp; Vineeto in Australia to see that I was misled. As soon as I figured out where I had gone wrong with actualism - and how meditation would never, ever lead to PCEs (except maybe by accident) or actual freedom (not even by accident) - then it was easy to make the decision to switch. It did take a few months of intense cognitive dissonance until I could say all this with confidence, though. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is possible if I kept meditating I would have gotten better results from meditating. I&amp;#039;d argue I tried it for a long time, but I could have done it more, or differently, perhaps. But as soon as I understood that it would never lead to what Richard describes, I had no reason to continue down that path.</description> <pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 15:18:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5584287</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-15T15:18:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582331</link> <description>I love you, James.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is a good question to ponder... &lt;br /&gt;Had I not began my quest, I would be quite happy and probably wealthy.&lt;br /&gt;Knowing what I know now, I thank God everyday that I didn&amp;#039;t settle for that, though I am empty and I have been broke for two years.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Had I not finished my quest, I would have been destroyed.  There is no question about that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But did I ever have a choice?  Like James said in another post, those who are strongest, hurt most.  It was the suffering around me that pushed me onto the path.  It was also the suffering around me that made me push through the path.  I don&amp;#039;t think I could have ever said, &amp;#034;No, I will stay with this imperfect understanding and live as well as I can.&amp;#034;  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It was worth the cost.  It was worth the cost a thousand times over...</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 05:57:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582331</guid> <dc:creator>Jeremy May</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T05:57:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Isolation/Sensory Deprivation/Flotation Tanks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582064</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Dream Walker:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Gary Sanders:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Tarin,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so you would suggest NO practice for floating? I&amp;#039;ve only done it once, just recently, and went in with the intention to practice with the jhanas. I could not lose all physical sensations of the breath because, with the earplugs in, my breath was so &amp;#034;loud&amp;#034; and my mind never got the chance to create a nimita.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i want to do it again soon, and I get 2+ hours in the tank, so I&amp;#039;d like to create an effective game plan. Which might just be having no plan. Any suggestions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hey Gary, Tarin hasn&amp;#039;t been around for quite a while now, but I can throw my 2 cents in...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve wanted to try a sensory deprivation tank in the past, but I&amp;#039;ve never actually done it. My suggestion is to take the breath as your object if you find it too loud, or to request ear-plugs. I know that this technology has been used for thousands of years, I seem to remember ancient peoples in Europe using ancestral tombs in this way, and Inuit shamans being out on the dark tundra in winter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The best approach I&amp;#039;ve found when approaching a new practice is to be bright, alert, interested yet aloof. Let the process unfold and see what happens. Don&amp;#039;t interfere.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think a good float in a tank like this would &lt;strong&gt;basically mimic formless realms&lt;/strong&gt;, but I could very well be wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;If you are having luck with jhanas I would say that floating will help you get into the formless realms easier....if you are already almost there anyway, or sometimes you just get a out of the blue lock on preview of stuff that you then have to work hard to get to.&lt;br /&gt;Take breath as the object and go with it. Do some resolutions too.&lt;br /&gt;lots of other fun stuff too...do some work and have some fun too&lt;br /&gt;~D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hey DM &amp;amp; Eric,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; I can hit jhana 1-4, and use Shaila Catherine&amp;#039;s technique of watching the breath so closely and intently, at a small microspot in the nose, that eventually the physical sensation goes away, the mind creates a nimita and then I relax/flow into 1st jhana, etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; The problem with floating is that you have to wear earplugs, to keep the high concentration of salt out of your ears, making the sound of the breath quite loud, thereby keeping a constant physical sensation of breath present, not allowing the brain to create a nimita. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not sure what the work around here would be. I did hope the sensory deprivation would help these absorbed states....but to be honest, I could hear my breath, I could feel the tempurature difference between the water and my skin, I&amp;#039;m a big guy and would sometimes bump into the sides of the tank, etc...i was very aware of many sensations. That said, it was a very relaxing 2.5+ hours and I did practice metta just for the hell of it, since I was getting nowhere with the jhanas.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hope that clarifys things more- gary</description> <pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2014 02:23:44 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5582064</guid> <dc:creator>Gary Sanders</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-13T02:23:44Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581651</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James Yen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The posts are still there!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;... &lt;br /&gt;My Evaluation (I&amp;#039;m already leaving this part out of KFDh due to their ways there, let me know at DhO if you think i should not include this, but i feel it&amp;#039;s relevant for evaluating my mental state): ringing ear tone / solidity was pre-nyana / mind + body which i usually don&amp;#039;t notice. the ear tone getting more complex was getting into A&amp;amp;P/3rd jhana. scary faces was fear. murky visuals was misery. disgusted face/smell was disgust. the &amp;#034;fruition Platform&amp;#034; was maybe an earlier cycle that i was perpetuating? don&amp;#039;t think i got out of re-observation this time, but i think the all-encompassing lower pitch sound might be hints of equanimity. &lt;br /&gt;...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;then i turned the lights on, and now this one was REALLY fun. first i noticed just some redness. then the redness kept expanding and expanding. then i started to see what I think are the veins in the eyelids. however, it soon got into really crazy visuals. the veins really thinned out and became more like spiderwebs and rings around the vision. the background became a really detailed texture of ‘lava’ almost, like yellow, black, and brown. after it formed, it started shifting crazily. it felt like the rings were dancing around, going from right to left really quickly, while the lava background distorted in all different directions at once.&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1428405&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;1mwjvdV&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1320285&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you James, those were the posts I was referencing. I also found this one by Beoman in another thread:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;After my stream entry I was very hyper-charged and energetic. My first review phase was amazing and I could fruition at will doing just about anything. I would totally show off with it, too. Like I would be like &amp;#034;ok I&amp;#039;m gonna lean back in my chair, hang my head upside down, then have a fruition just for the heck of it&amp;#034;, and then I would do exactly that. Great stuff.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4876916&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;My question to Beoman remains-- why the sudden shift in opinion on the benefits of meditation? Vipassana seems to provide a whole lot of fun, interesting, and profound levels of experience. I am curious as to why this is a bad thing. I do not mean to come off as confrontational. Rather, I simply do not want to be fooled into taking a path that seems fun but is really not worth the trouble.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 21:41:30 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581651</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T21:41:30Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581448</link> <description>The posts are still there!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;... &lt;br /&gt;My Evaluation (I&amp;#039;m already leaving this part out of KFDh due to their ways there, let me know at DhO if you think i should not include this, but i feel it&amp;#039;s relevant for evaluating my mental state): ringing ear tone / solidity was pre-nyana / mind + body which i usually don&amp;#039;t notice. the ear tone getting more complex was getting into A&amp;amp;P/3rd jhana. scary faces was fear. murky visuals was misery. disgusted face/smell was disgust. the &amp;#034;fruition Platform&amp;#034; was maybe an earlier cycle that i was perpetuating? don&amp;#039;t think i got out of re-observation this time, but i think the all-encompassing lower pitch sound might be hints of equanimity. &lt;br /&gt;...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;...&lt;br /&gt;then i turned the lights on, and now this one was REALLY fun. first i noticed just some redness. then the redness kept expanding and expanding. then i started to see what I think are the veins in the eyelids. however, it soon got into really crazy visuals. the veins really thinned out and became more like spiderwebs and rings around the vision. the background became a really detailed texture of ‘lava’ almost, like yellow, black, and brown. after it formed, it started shifting crazily. it felt like the rings were dancing around, going from right to left really quickly, while the lava background distorted in all different directions at once.&lt;br /&gt;...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1428405&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;i&amp;#x2e;imgur&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;1mwjvdV&amp;#x2e;png" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1320285</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 20:24:24 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581448</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T20:24:24Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581366</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paul Kinkade:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When people say this in reference to insight practices, are they just being facetious? I realize that once I cross the A&amp;amp;P I&amp;#039;m kind of doomed to finish the path or wander through the in-between stages for the rest of my life. It doesn&amp;#039;t sound like any arahats regret what they&amp;#039;ve done, but this forum (and MCTB ) sometimes make it seem like insight practices are only for those who have crossed the A&amp;amp;P accidentally and now must finish what they&amp;#039;ve started.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I&amp;#039;m just an average joe, should I go ahead and do hardcore vipassana? Should I do this with my life?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Short answer: No.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Really though, from one human being to another, I really want to warn you off this path. Undertaking it was probably the single largest mistake of my life. Though it wasn&amp;#039;t one mistake, more like a long series of them since I was doing it for a year or two. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would recommend a normal life over a spiritual one. However, I would recommend actualism over a normal life, so I will answer your questions about that &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5579487"&gt;on that thread&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Beoman Fire Bird... Thing, your comments are interesting. It is true that insight meditation is often unpleasant, but the end result (theoretically) is the erradication of certain levels of suffering at each successive Path moment, with freedom from all suffering occuring at 4th Path. And yet, you wish to warn others away.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is most interesting, is that you were quite happy and enthusiastic when you attained stream-entry. Unfortunately, that particular post was eaten in the transition to the new website, but I remember you saying something about watching the backs of your eyelids and seeing the nanas play out-- sad faces when Misery rolled around, for example-- and attaining a very clear no-self fruition. You also had some posts about &amp;#034;solving&amp;#034; koans and attaining cessations that way. Forgive me if any of this is inaccurate. My point is, you seemed very happy with the results of your efforts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Furthermore, correct me if I am wrong, but didn&amp;#039;t you submit an Erowid experience report about your experiences? This would indicate at least some degree of wanting to share what you had learned with others.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am curious as to why you feel differently now. A whole lot of people have spent enormous amounts of time, sometimes their entire lives, practicing and teaching meditation. Clearly they felt that this practice was of value. It is only fair that you explain why you feel it is not worth pursuing.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 19:50:09 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581366</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T19:50:09Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Isolation/Sensory Deprivation/Flotation Tanks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581194</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Gary Sanders:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Tarin,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so you would suggest NO practice for floating? I&amp;#039;ve only done it once, just recently, and went in with the intention to practice with the jhanas. I could not lose all physical sensations of the breath because, with the earplugs in, my breath was so &amp;#034;loud&amp;#034; and my mind never got the chance to create a nimita.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i want to do it again soon, and I get 2+ hours in the tank, so I&amp;#039;d like to create an effective game plan. Which might just be having no plan. Any suggestions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hey Gary, Tarin hasn&amp;#039;t been around for quite a while now, but I can throw my 2 cents in...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve wanted to try a sensory deprivation tank in the past, but I&amp;#039;ve never actually done it. My suggestion is to take the breath as your object if you find it too loud, or to request ear-plugs. I know that this technology has been used for thousands of years, I seem to remember ancient peoples in Europe using ancestral tombs in this way, and Inuit shamans being out on the dark tundra in winter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The best approach I&amp;#039;ve found when approaching a new practice is to be bright, alert, interested yet aloof. Let the process unfold and see what happens. Don&amp;#039;t interfere.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think a good float in a tank like this would &lt;strong&gt;basically mimic formless realms&lt;/strong&gt;, but I could very well be wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;If you are having luck with jhanas I would say that floating will help you get into the formless realms easier....if you are already almost there anyway, or sometimes you just get a out of the blue lock on preview of stuff that you then have to work hard to get to.&lt;br /&gt;Take breath as the object and go with it. Do some resolutions too.&lt;br /&gt;lots of other fun stuff too...do some work and have some fun too&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 18:51:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5581194</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T18:51:58Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Isolation/Sensory Deprivation/Flotation Tanks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580271</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Gary Sanders:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Tarin,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so you would suggest NO practice for floating? I&amp;#039;ve only done it once, just recently, and went in with the intention to practice with the jhanas. I could not lose all physical sensations of the breath because, with the earplugs in, my breath was so &amp;#034;loud&amp;#034; and my mind never got the chance to create a nimita.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i want to do it again soon, and I get 2+ hours in the tank, so I&amp;#039;d like to create an effective game plan. Which might just be having no plan. Any suggestions?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hey Gary, Tarin hasn&amp;#039;t been around for quite a while now, but I can throw my 2 cents in...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ve wanted to try a sensory deprivation tank in the past, but I&amp;#039;ve never actually done it. My suggestion is to take the breath as your object if you find it too loud, or to request ear-plugs. I know that this technology has been used for thousands of years, I seem to remember ancient peoples in Europe using ancestral tombs in this way, and Inuit shamans being out on the dark tundra in winter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The best approach I&amp;#039;ve found when approaching a new practice is to be bright, alert, interested yet aloof. Let the process unfold and see what happens. Don&amp;#039;t interfere.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think a good float in a tank like this would basically mimic formless realms, but I could very well be wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Eric</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 13:46:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580271</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T13:46:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Isolation/Sensory Deprivation/Flotation Tanks</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580232</link> <description>Tarin,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;so you would suggest NO practice for floating? I&amp;#039;ve only done it once, just recently, and went in with the intention to practice with the jhanas. I could not lose all physical sensations of the breath because, with the earplugs in, my breath was so &amp;#034;loud&amp;#034; and my mind never got the chance to create a nimita.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;i want to do it again soon, and I get 2+ hours in the tank, so I&amp;#039;d like to create an effective game plan. Which might just be having no plan. Any suggestions?</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 13:33:19 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580232</guid> <dc:creator>Gary Sanders</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T13:33:19Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580121</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;should I go ahead and do hardcore vipassana?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also, it doesn&amp;#039;t necessarily need to be done &amp;#034;hardcore.&amp;#034;  For me the word &amp;#034;hardcore&amp;#034; represents high standards of wisdom and not some forceful and strained method of meditation.</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 11:35:55 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580121</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T11:35:55Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580108</link> <description>I made a thread like this way back in the day:&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;418486&amp;#x3f;doAsUserId&amp;#x3d;U4FYRpmIICQ&amp;#x25;3D&amp;#x25;2F-&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fmessage&amp;#x25;2F10847&amp;#x25;2F-&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fmessage&amp;#x25;2F392971"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/418486?doAsUserId=U4FYRpmIICQ%3D%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fmessage%2F10847%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fmessage%2F392971&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;I believe the Chogyam Trungpa quote is: &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;&amp;#039;If you can possibly avoid the spiritual life you should do so.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;With the insight I have now, I am extremely grateful for it (I am somewhere between very late 3rd-4th by Daniel&amp;#039;s criteria).  It continues to provide astounding benefits day after day.  I did go through a lot of troubles (probably an understatement) to get where I am, though I did get there relatively quickly.  I very highly doubt you will go through the degree and amount of trouble I had to go through (due to mental illness), and even I think it was worth it, but I have no guarantees about how long it will take you.  However, the amount and quality of information available has never been better.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;418486&amp;#x3f;doAsUserId&amp;#x3d;U4FYRpmIICQ&amp;#x25;3D&amp;#x25;2F-&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fmessage&amp;#x25;2F10847&amp;#x25;2F-&amp;#x25;2Fmessage_boards&amp;#x25;2Fmessage&amp;#x25;2F392971"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2014 11:27:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5580108</guid> <dc:creator>Tom Tom</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-12T11:27:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579497</link> <description>I think Chogyam Trungpa said that originally?&lt;br /&gt;The Buddha said the Dharma is good in the beginning, middle, and the end&lt;br /&gt;I tend to go with the latter, although your thread quote certainly resonates at times&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m not even meant to be responding here because I&amp;#039;m neither a Stream Enterer (no blips) nor a pre-A&amp;amp;P happy- go-lucky guy, so for whatever it&amp;#039;s worth&lt;br /&gt;When Morpheus offers Neo to take the blue or the red pill, which do you root for?&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#039;s a deep F-ing question, which would you take?&lt;br /&gt;I think it was Adyashanti that said Enlightenment isn&amp;#039;t about being happy (which pissed me off ;) but there is a deep sense of peace, contentment and sometimes fearlessness that I&amp;#039;ve personally gained from walking the path&lt;br /&gt;As for Actualism I have no personal experience, but I&amp;#039;ve experienced what they refer to as PCEs (though considering they practically trademarked the experience my assertion may piss the Actualists off haha), and the writings of Tommy McNally (in your other post) and Daniel Ingram (in his write-up) make a lot more sense to me than others that have dogmatic beliefs about Self and 100% Freedom and Actualism being something totally new and different that no one else knows about. Sounds a lot like religion to me, and I mean that in a bad way.&lt;br /&gt;One suggestion may be to search for deep contentment in &amp;#039;normal&amp;#039; things, girlfriend (or boyfriend), job, money, nice stuff, vacations, etc. and see if you find it there. Never did the trick for me </description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 18:52:10 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579497</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Leffler</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T18:52:10Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579483</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paul Kinkade:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When people say this in reference to insight practices, are they just being facetious? I realize that once I cross the A&amp;amp;P I&amp;#039;m kind of doomed to finish the path or wander through the in-between stages for the rest of my life. It doesn&amp;#039;t sound like any arahats regret what they&amp;#039;ve done, but this forum (and MCTB ) sometimes make it seem like insight practices are only for those who have crossed the A&amp;amp;P accidentally and now must finish what they&amp;#039;ve started.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I&amp;#039;m just an average joe, should I go ahead and do hardcore vipassana? Should I do this with my life?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Short answer: No.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Really though, from one human being to another, I really want to warn you off this path. Undertaking it was probably the single largest mistake of my life. Though it wasn&amp;#039;t one mistake, more like a long series of them since I was doing it for a year or two. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would recommend a normal life over a spiritual one. However, I would recommend actualism over a normal life, so I will answer your questions about that &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;web&amp;#x2f;guest&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5579487"&gt;on that thread&lt;/a&gt;.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 18:26:52 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579483</guid> <dc:creator>Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T18:26:52Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579304</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;James Yen:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The fact that you&amp;#039;re already on this forum really speaks to the possibility that you&amp;#039;ve already crossed the A&amp;amp;P.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also the fact that you were able to read Daniel&amp;#039;s book.  I&amp;#039;ve suggested that book to several people who I thought were ripe for it, and none of them were interested enought to read more than the first few chapters.  It takes a certain thirst to spend time on a website like this and to read a book like MCTB.  And it&amp;#039;s a thirst that can only be quenched by one thing... enlightenment, baby!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-T</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 01:13:49 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579304</guid> <dc:creator>Teague</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T01:13:49Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579295</link> <description>Hey Paul, you&amp;#039;re asking a really good question.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would say that there is a real reason why the saying exists and why it continues to be repeated, generation after generation. Meditation is a slippery slope and it really does wind up being something that takes on a life of its own. So it&amp;#039;s important to really think about your life and what you really need or want right now. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Life is very unpredictable and short even when we are lucky enough to live &amp;#034;a long life&amp;#034;. There will always be regrets about what we manage to do in our short time on earth... but hopefully we can minimize those regrets.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Here&amp;#039;s what I would suggest... if there is something that quickly comes to mind as an alternative to spending time meditating, really spend time with that idea. Don&amp;#039;t put it aside or deny it. Also keep researching meditation, either by reading or talking with people or trying it out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There&amp;#039;s no magical answer. You need to feel your way through this life for yourself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Don&amp;#039;t get seduced by people who claim that &amp;#034;X&amp;#034; is the best thing to do with your life --- they are probably saying that to help reinforce their decision that &amp;#034;X&amp;#034; is the most important thing to do in their life. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think the domain of meditation is so wildly interesting that I can&amp;#039;t even imagine what my life would be without it... but honestly, if you talk with people you see that people feel the same way about the decisions they have made for their life, whether it is a career or music or travel or or dating or art or charity or family or school or craft... so remember the flesh and blood human side to all of this. Meditation has also been a really hard path and not something I could just blindly wish on someone else. I think that would be cruel. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I hear someone voice a passing interest in meditation, I often have the thought &amp;#034;perhaps better never to have started, once started best to finish&amp;#034;.  I don&amp;#039;t just rush up and offer encouragement to start meditation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Take your time, feel it out. Keep asking good questions. Good luck!</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:57:46 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579295</guid> <dc:creator>x x</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T00:57:46Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579284</link> <description>Ah, ok. So at this point it&amp;#039;s all intellectual for you?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s still good too, personally it was the same for me for many years, only after a streak of being vulnerable (for about 6 months) did I have an opening to this whole process, and from then on it was hell, like it literally sucked.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus, treading the intellectual grasping of the four noble truths, may in fact launch you into the process as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is worth it.</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:11:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579284</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T00:11:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579277</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;In general, no one really seeks solutions to problems of existential angst or suffering unless they have already started the journey&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;That&amp;#039;s the thing--as far as I can tell, I don&amp;#039;t notice any exitstential angst or suffering. It&amp;#039;s not a real-time, experiential problem that motivates me to practice, it&amp;#039;s just the idea that I could be living better. I read about grasping &amp;amp; aversion in Mindfulness in Plain English and thought freedom sounded better than my futile attempts to find satisfaction in the external world. I liked Daniel&amp;#039;s book because the instructions were so clear and voilà, I&amp;#039;m here. Am I missing the point on this stuff?&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:00:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579277</guid> <dc:creator>Paul Kinkade</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-11T00:00:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579266</link> <description>The fact that you&amp;#039;re already on this forum really speaks to the possibility that you&amp;#039;ve already crossed the A&amp;amp;P. In general, no one really seeks solutions to problems of existential angst or suffering unless they have already started the journey. It is probably best to work from the perspective of &amp;#034;already begun&amp;#034; and work out what to do from there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;People might make it seem like it&amp;#039;s gunning an engine to jump over a bridge, or starting the launch button for a rocket ship, it&amp;#039;s not really like that, the nagging searching or &amp;#034;not rightness&amp;#034; is in fact insight disease.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;James</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:39:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579266</guid> <dc:creator>J J</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-10T23:39:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579263</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Paul Kinkade:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d prefer responses only from those who have completed at least one progress of insight.&lt;br /&gt;Paul&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps you may also limit it to people who had not gotten to A&amp;amp;P and chose to start then got to a path moment.&lt;br /&gt;Don&amp;#039;t know if there are any people here who qualify.&lt;br /&gt;Good luck,&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:38:25 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579263</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-10T23:38:25Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579243</link> <description>&amp;#034;Best not to begin. Once begun, best to finish.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When people say this in reference to insight practices, are they just being facetious? I realize that once I cross the A&amp;amp;P I&amp;#039;m kind of doomed to finish the path or wander through the in-between stages for the rest of my life. It doesn&amp;#039;t sound like any arahats regret what they&amp;#039;ve done, but this forum (and MCTB ) sometimes make it seem like insight practices are only for those who have crossed the A&amp;amp;P accidentally and now must finish what they&amp;#039;ve started.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If I&amp;#039;m just an average joe, should I go ahead and do hardcore vipassana? Should I do this with my life?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;d prefer responses only from those who have completed at least one progress of insight.&lt;br /&gt;Paul</description> <pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:26:43 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5579243</guid> <dc:creator>Paul Kinkade</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-10T23:26:43Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577059</link> <description>Well Done!! Well Said!!&lt;br /&gt;Saddhu! Saddhu! Saddhu!</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 21:06:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577059</guid> <dc:creator>Piers M</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T21:06:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577040</link> <description>SOunds like you guys basically agree on the concepts, the only confusion seems to be if or not the book is as clear as it could be on those same points.  It&amp;#039;s hard to predict how others will read and interpret things since different minds can operate so differently.  Things that seem obvious to some may not be at all obvious to others and you&amp;#039;ll never make everyone happy.  I think you mostly just have to try to figure out where the most  people get confused the most and in areas that are more important, and work on those.  Not being in the center of the storm myself, I don&amp;#039;t know what areas those are that you might get the most complaints from..</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:31:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577040</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T20:31:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577037</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Psi Phi:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have come to see that as true just as the Buddha suggests: in DN 16 Mahaparrinibbana Sutta:&lt;br /&gt;[url=61. Thereupon the Blessed One entered the hall of audience, and taking the seat prepared for him, he exhorted the bhikkhus, saying: &amp;#034;Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you &amp;#x2014; these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men. 62. &amp;#034;And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path. These, bhikkhus, are the teachings of which I have direct knowledge, which I have made known to you, and which you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men.&amp;#034;]61. &lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;4 foundations of mindfulness&lt;br /&gt;4 right efforts&lt;br /&gt;4 constituents of psychic power&lt;br /&gt;5 faculties&lt;br /&gt;5 powers&lt;br /&gt;7 factors of enlightenment&lt;br /&gt;8 fold Path&lt;br /&gt;= 37 Factors&lt;br /&gt;This is pretty cool. It seems like there may be a way of looking at these factors and projecting them onto different axis of development. If we list each factor I find quite a bit of redundancy and overlay. If we chop out the redundancy what do we get? how many axis?&lt;br /&gt;hmm...I have no time to do this right now but I think it would be an interesting exercise. Anyone up for it?&lt;br /&gt;~D</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 20:30:56 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5577037</guid> <dc:creator>Dream Walker</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T20:30:56Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576989</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The problem with my morality, concentration, and wisdom is what again, specifically? It is hard to state that in general this path produces people of poor moral virtue and also poor concentration without taking this personally, as I am obvoiusly one of those people. So, specifically, the deficits are what? What do you know of my morality, my actions, my life, as I live it daily, and so who are you to presume?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Being as it is nearly impossible for someone to do as you imagine, that being to just focus on sensations and not notice mindstates in the Dark Night, and to not notice psychological issues as well, you misunderstand that the meaning of the book is to take people from their profoundly psychological practice and to add an insight component and to try, against all odds, to push them in that direction against all their natural tendencies. Honestly looking at what is going on their experience is pointed to again and again and again. Wallowing in that without noticing the true nature of that experience, however, is a totally terrible idea, as countless people who have done the experiement can attest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also state explicitly in the Dark Night section that those with strong concentration skills may breeze through the Dark Night in realms of light and geometry or something similar and hardly notice anything but some subtle phase problems with attention. It is the larges carrot I can float out there for strong concentration abilities. Those few have that degree of concentration skills (which I introduce before insight practices and list specifically as a valuable support to insight practices) that are sufficient to actually stave off the psychological wallowing that nearly everyone else goes through for the vast majority of their Dark Nights, as attested to here by literally thousands of posts about this topic, hardly need much additional teaching, as they are doing just fine, and a few subtle pointers is all that is required. For the rest, I go on and on about developing strong concentration and also about how, once one has stabilized somewhat in practice, one may include mindstates and everything else, including space and the sense of awareness itself, as noted in numerous places.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You also somehow missed the whole section in the beginning that talked about desire, compassion and wisdom in the section on Suffering. Perhaps go back and read that. It is common for Mahayanists to have a filter that somehow Theravadans don&amp;#039;t say or understand anything about compassion, a filter that then can make it nearly impossible for them to actually notice when they talk about it. It is an annoying and oddly habitual occurrence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you want references and quotes, I could go on and on and on. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;Hello Daniel, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My original post reply was to dat-Buddha field, and/or any general reader.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I did not state or not state that you had a problem with morality , concentration or wisdom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not presume to know anyone&amp;#039;s daily state of morality, actions , or their life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do not proclaim what is a Myabanana or a Thersagodda view.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My point is, again, that just observing sensations and not practicing any other trainings would be an error, I did not state that anyone has ever said that it would be otherwise.  As, indeed you yourself have pointed out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have, from experience, seen that what the Buddha teaches to be correct, I do not believe in blind faith, I believe in Investigation for one&amp;#039;s self.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I was trying to point the finger towards was that, &amp;#034;if anyone thought that they could obtain Full Enlightenment by only observing, just sensations, I think that this is in error.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have come to see that as true just as the Buddha suggests: in DN 16 Mahaparrinibbana Sutta:&lt;br /&gt;[url=61. Thereupon the Blessed One entered the hall of audience, and taking the seat prepared for him, he exhorted the bhikkhus, saying: &amp;#034;Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you &amp;#x2014; these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men. 62. &amp;#034;And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path. These, bhikkhus, are the teachings of which I have direct knowledge, which I have made known to you, and which you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men.&amp;#034;]61. Thereupon the Blessed One entered the hall of audience, and taking the seat prepared for him, he exhorted the bhikkhus, saying: &amp;#034;Now, O bhikkhus, I say to you that these teachings of which I have direct knowledge and which I have made known to you &amp;#x2014; these you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men. 62. &amp;#034;And what, bhikkhus, are these teachings? They are the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four constituents of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven factors of enlightenment, and the Noble Eightfold Path. These, bhikkhus, are the teachings of which I have direct knowledge, which I have made known to you, and which you should thoroughly learn, cultivate, develop, and frequently practice, that the life of purity may be established and may long endure, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;Not wanting to quote , but to point to teachings that the 37 factors of enlightnement as suggested, should be thoroughly learned, cultivated, developed, and frquently practiced.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And again, I did not state that anyone here has implied or taught in such a manner, it is only my intention that if practioners were seeking to exists in an enlightened state, then they must practice all 37 factors to a level of mastery.  By the very definition of a factor, everyone of them has to be part of the equation or Full Enlightenment does not occur, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example: all 37 factors added together = Full Enlightenment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If they are not all present then there is not Full Enlightenment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Same as factors in math.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;1+1+1+1+33=37&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;and 1+1+1+33 =36&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Factors are Factors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, for myself, as usual, I will have to contemplate and examine My own cause and effects of my own speech and action, even though they be of an impersonal nature, there is still a sense of responsiblity for speech and actions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, if I have harmed anyone or led anyone to a wrong path with anything I have written or implied, I sincerely apologize.  Such is the nature of Dukkha, even when I try to help I am hurting.  &lt;img alt="emoticon" src="http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dho-theme/images/emoticons/sad.gif" &gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Phi</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 17:32:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576989</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T17:32:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576966</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Eric M W:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&amp;#034;The sensate level.&amp;#034; What does that even mean? Everything is sensate, even sila and formless realms. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From MCTB (pg 12):&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;The assumption that is rarely stated explicitly but often implied is&lt;br /&gt;that we must be willing to stay on a sensate level, at the level of the&lt;br /&gt;actual sensations that make up experiences, if we wish to gain the&lt;br /&gt;insights that are promised by the mystics. The corollary of this&lt;br /&gt;assumption is that we must be willing to set aside periods of time during&lt;br /&gt;which we abandon the ordinary way of working in the world that is&lt;br /&gt;called training in morality and even the unusual way of working with&lt;br /&gt;altered states of consciousness that is called training in concentration.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:45:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576966</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T16:45:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576956</link> <description>Hi Daniel, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&amp;#039;t presume to know much about you.  In fact, from what I can tell you seem like a very decent person.  I&amp;#039;m merely responding to statements by yourself and other pragmatic dharmees about how enlightenment doesn&amp;#039;t necessarily make one a good person. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I&amp;#039;m saying is that if we take sila, samadhi, and prajna to be at the end of the day inseparable then how could this be true?  Or why would we choose to define enlightenment in such a way that it is?  Adopting such a definition seems counterproductive, to me.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are plenty of examples of Theravadins saying such things as well.  For example, in Ajahn Brahm&amp;#039;s essay on the Jhanas he discusses how virtuous people more easily attain Jhana, have brighter nimittas, etc. due to the wholesomeness of their minds.  Thus, he advocates training in morality as central to the development of wisdom and liberation.     &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I didn&amp;#039;t miss your section on Morality.  You said the following which is great: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Thus, even if we have little interest in being moral because of the benefits it can bring, if we are interested in obtaining the results of the other two trainings, we should also engage in training in morality. &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet then I hear you in an interview say something like becoming a decent person is a different &amp;#039;axis of development&amp;#039; from prajna.  The two statements are contradictory, and undermine the importance of those teachings on morality.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And just for the record, even though I brought up the paramitas and find the idea of them very useful, I don&amp;#039;t identify as a Mahayanist.  The vast majority of my retreat time has taken place in the tradition of Pa Auk Sayadaw.      </description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 16:13:07 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576956</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T16:13:07Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576946</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel M. Ingram:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;I am so sorry that somehow you got the wrong impression. I am reworking MCTB and will try to see how that occurred. &lt;br /&gt;Daniel&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also got the impression that the book was sort dismissing the psychological aspects.  I can see how it came about if you think that sensate was lost in the shuffle, then I can see why you would concentrate on sensate.  But I don&amp;#039;t recall in the book you ever said you though both were important but sensate gets neglected.  I do remember the emphasis on sensate, but not where you indicated psych was important.  Instead I remember the parts where you sort of rail against the psychological aspects make it sound kind of as if you though they are a waste of time.  Plus I do well remember that quote that Dat Bhudda brought up as giving a similar impression.  If you indeed feel more that psychological stuff is important but sensate is ALSO important, you could say it more directly for starters, instead it sounded more like  you reluctantly felt psych issues might be of use to do a tad of that at first but most of it was just a waste of time. Oh and I also kind of got the impression that you were indicating the psych stuff was more for the more messed up people!  Obviously, that might step on a few toes and give an elitist kind of a feel to things even if it was only sort of implied!  ;-)   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Keep in mind, I have no ponies in this race.  When I read the book, I felt many aspects were EXTREMELY valuable to have out there and I had not heard much prior about the sensate investigations so I was and am very interested in those explorations.  But I also see some of the issues that others have pointed out with the book.  I am not a type that follows groups or leaders so I don&amp;#039;t feel much need to join a group or leader and defend that group.  I think that is the source of a lot of arguments. People from other groups tend to come here and want to show how this group is wrong and their group is right, and this group wants to show how this group is right and the other groups are wrong.  It&amp;#039;s an amazingly strong human tendency and tends to color interaction between groups very strongly.   I don&amp;#039;t follow any of the groups so I have no emotional stake in the matter of what this group thinks or what other groups think.  Every group seems to  have their dogma, including this one, but here does seem to be less rigid about than many places, maybe because it is not based off any one religion.   </description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 15:48:50 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576946</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T15:48:50Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576931</link> <description>&amp;#034;The sensate level.&amp;#034; What does that even mean? Everything is sensate, even sila and formless realms. </description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 14:56:39 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576931</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T14:56:39Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576861</link> <description>The problem with my morality, concentration, and wisdom is what again, specifically? It is hard to state that in general this path produces people of poor moral virtue and also poor concentration without taking this personally, as I am obvoiusly one of those people. So, specifically, the deficits are what? What do you know of my morality, my actions, my life, as I live it daily, and so who are you to presume?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Being as it is nearly impossible for someone to do as you imagine, that being to just focus on sensations and not notice mindstates in the Dark Night, and to not notice psychological issues as well, you misunderstand that the meaning of the book is to take people from their profoundly psychological practice and to add an insight component and to try, against all odds, to push them in that direction against all their natural tendencies. Honestly looking at what is going on their experience is pointed to again and again and again. Wallowing in that without noticing the true nature of that experience, however, is a totally terrible idea, as countless people who have done the experiement can attest.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also state explicitly in the Dark Night section that those with strong concentration skills may breeze through the Dark Night in realms of light and geometry or something similar and hardly notice anything but some subtle phase problems with attention. It is the larges carrot I can float out there for strong concentration abilities. Those few have that degree of concentration skills (which I introduce before insight practices and list specifically as a valuable support to insight practices) that are sufficient to actually stave off the psychological wallowing that nearly everyone else goes through for the vast majority of their Dark Nights, as attested to here by literally thousands of posts about this topic, hardly need much additional teaching, as they are doing just fine, and a few subtle pointers is all that is required. For the rest, I go on and on about developing strong concentration and also about how, once one has stabilized somewhat in practice, one may include mindstates and everything else, including space and the sense of awareness itself, as noted in numerous places.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You also somehow missed the whole section in the beginning that talked about desire, compassion and wisdom in the section on Suffering. Perhaps go back and read that. It is common for Mahayanists to have a filter that somehow Theravadans don&amp;#039;t say or understand anything about compassion, a filter that then can make it nearly impossible for them to actually notice when they talk about it. It is an annoying and oddly habitual occurrence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you want references and quotes, I could go on and on and on. </description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 08:29:42 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576861</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T08:29:42Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576807</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It seems like one aspect of the MCTB philosophy is that we can practice insight on the 3Cs, using physical sensations or their changing nature as the only object of our contemplations.  It also is argued that being an &amp;#034;enlightened&amp;#034; being does not necessarily make one a good person.  I want to argue that these two aspects of the MCTB philosophy are intimately related, and that failing to practice inisght on feelings and mental contents (aka &amp;#034;our stuff&amp;#034;) is why MCTB practitioners do not develop in a balanced way that integrates ethical maturity with phenomenal understanding.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A huge domain of human experience and confliction is wrapped up in our psychology.  The confliction we experience on this level (the kleshas) is a huge source of suffering, and a huge drain of energy.  On the level of body we experience this kind of internal conflict as bodily fabrication, and psychologically we experience it as conflicting emotions.  When one is liberated, the energy that normally goes towards feeding the kleshas is transmuted into the energy of wakefulness itself.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus the idea that we can practice meditation and compartmentalize insight from our basic psychology is a fundamental ignorance that fails to recognize the ways in which we fabricate our experience, our suffering, and eventually our liberation.  It&amp;#039;s a denial of how complicit we are in this process, and is a denial of our ability to transmute negative karma into liberation.  The Buddha taught four frames of reference for contemplating the nature of phenomena: body, feelings, mental contents, and mind.  Call me a &amp;#034;sutta head&amp;#034; if you&amp;#039;d like, but it seems clear that ignoring three out of these four frames of reference misses most of the pie.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are stuck in the Dark Night and the whole world seems shitty, your perceptions are frightening, and you are hating life there are different approaches you can take.  With the MCTB approach, you are told to suck it up and just keep noting sensate phenomena.  Another approach is to understand that the suffering you are currently experiencing is being created by you in the mind.  I&amp;#039;m making the humble proposal that it can be helpful to take a break from sensate phenomena, stop denying your basic psychological state, and take a look at what&amp;#039;s going on in your mind.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re an &amp;#039;Arhat&amp;#039; and still a dick, what is it that causes you to act that way?  Surely you can see the process as it arises, you&amp;#039;re capable of reflecting on the impact your words have, and you&amp;#039;re capable of forming the intention to be better next time around.  So why don&amp;#039;t you?  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hello everyone, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Practice points, Is  what I am about to propse related,? understood, ? and/or actually practiced?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; What I see is that each Factor of Enlightenment is a Practice Point with various Methods available to continually improve and eventually Master each point,  this is due to cause and effect.  Contrarily there seems to be the mis-understanding that if one practices Noting only, then one will &amp;#034;automatically&amp;#034; and magically get all 37 factors at the Path Moment (s) and be enlightened.  This view, while enticing, seems to be incorrect, which is why there is so much denial of the Standard Model for Enlightenment, and rationalization as to why it must be a myth, etc.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mainly, like it or not this would be due to ignoring the full development of each and every section of the Eightfold Path, which is why it is called ignorance.  I state this due to my own battle with ignorance, ( I say I and my, though can not find a core self nor can find a &amp;#034;creator&amp;#034; of any thoughts, they arise from within, and have cause and effect reasons for arising to be sure, but that is another story.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would think it an error for anyone to say they were Fully Enlightened and have not mastered all 37 factors of Enlightenment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I would also think it an error to say it were not possible to be able to master all 37 factors of Enlightnement just because one hasn&amp;#039;t been able to do so.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I do also think there are varying levels of Enlightenment, and many lateral and angular trajectories from initial stages of enlightenment, which is why there is so much disagreement about the definition of enlightenment, which ironically means that they are all personal views and therefore are all wrong anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Life is like a box of chocolates.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And that&amp;#039;s all I got to say about that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Psi Gump</description> <pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2014 05:39:53 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576807</guid> <dc:creator>Psi Phi</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-04T05:39:53Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576704</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;this reminds me of &amp;#034;if you not a christian you will go to hell&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You recall that the Buddha taught the path to liberation as consisting of Sila, Samadhi, and Prajna right?  Most of the people here claim to practice something they call the &amp;#034;core teachings of the Buddha&amp;#034;.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; If I say &amp;#039;not cultivating prajna means you will continue to exist in samsara&amp;#039; is that too dogmatic for you?  Or how about if I say &amp;#039;you won&amp;#039;t become an arhat if you don&amp;#039;t learn samadhi&amp;#039;?  But if I say you won&amp;#039;t become liberated if you don&amp;#039;t become an ethical person, that makes me sound like a Christian fundamentalist?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So you&amp;#039;re probably down with Samadhi and Prajna, but too cool for Sila or something like that.  That attitude does not lead to liberation which is all I&amp;#039;m here to say, despite how unpopular that is.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well wishes.  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hi,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have no issue with what you have wrote although my interest in this has nothing to do with being cool. I mentioned it reminded me of other statements I had heard because of below&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &amp;#034;Let&amp;#039;s define a &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; as one who mindfully intends to cultivate the six transcendent virtues (paramitas) of generosity, discipline, patience, exertion, meditation, and prajna, as well as the four sublime abidings (brhamaviharas).  A person of &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039; is one who has realized these things to various degrees.To me, it&amp;#039;s sad that Daniel is only reluctant to admit that the ability to be mindful of mind, feelings, and mental contents is helpful to the practice.&amp;#034;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As soon as you define a good person and an ethical mature person by these standards you automatically create another imaginary division of bad or unethical and immature people which I think is the wrong view. I appreciate the exchange and the concerns you have raised although I have disagreed with your summation of the practices that occur here. From what I have read here there is a healthy balance of different practices and as you have stated: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#034;sila, samadhi, and prajna are at the end of the day not separable&amp;#034;,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; this is all part of progress of insight although some practices might not be aimed at one specific component there will be progress in all with the progress in insight&lt;br /&gt;cheers&lt;br /&gt;Jeff</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 22:32:13 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576704</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T22:32:13Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576598</link> <description>Hi Daniel, &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thank you for clarifying.  I certainly agree with you about how overly psychologized a lot of pop-Buddhism is.  I have come across many of the types of practitioners you are talking about who just don&amp;#039;t get it.  I can thus appreciatie your message and feel that your voice has been an important one in that regard.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Part of the problem as I see it, however, is that you are talking to practitioners on multiple different levels.  You are talking to people who can&amp;#039;t even discern the difference between thoughts and sensations, and then you are also talking to practitioners who really do have the faculties, aspirations, and potential necessary for true liberation.  You do it all in about 350 pages and something gets lost in the middle.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m referring to passages like your chapter on the dark night in which you advocate compartmentalizing the dark night on the sensate level from your &amp;#039;stuff&amp;#039;.  I can see why you would advocate this for people who have not yet looked at their psychology deeply, as I acknowledge there are plenty of cases to indicate just how badly this can go.  However, maybe this is part of why Samadhi and purification of mindstream are traditionally taught before the insight stages.  Maybe it isn&amp;#039;t responsible to be encouraging weak practitioners into insight territory before they&amp;#039;ve purified their minds.  Perhaps the patience of many meditation teachers in dealing with people who only practice on the psychological levels is a wisdom that reflects this.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My issue with how you speak about the dark night is the notion that the sensate level can be compartmentalized from our stuff, and yet still reflect something about reality.  Yet when you go on to your discussion of formations it &lt;em&gt;seems like&lt;/em&gt; you do understand that these things are not separate.  After all, all stages are knowledges into certain types of formations.  Thus, any thoughts that arise must be recognized as part of/in relation to the formation.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Even merely laying out the teachings on the five aggregates and co-dependent arising before launching into the stages of insight would help with this.  That&amp;#039;s how the teachings are layed out in the Vissudhimagga, and for good reason.  I don&amp;#039;t really understand how one can practice insight without this knowledge.  Even if one hasn&amp;#039;t purified their mindstream, an intellectual understanding of the 5-aggs or even just an inclination towards the hope for one, could potentially give someone the tools to better wrangle with their psychology when they find themselves in weird territory.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The result of all this is the idea in western Buddhism that practice doesn&amp;#039;t necessarily make you a better person because people have failed to integrate their psychology into their practice.  Sila, samadhi, and prajna are seen as separate spheres from which we can pick and choose and still somehow come out enlightened.  To my mind, an important realization is that sila, samadhi, and prajna are at the end of the day not separable.  Many will recognize that samadhi is important for the development of prajna.  Sila is sometimes translated at &amp;#039;discipline&amp;#039; which is of course necessary for the development of samadhi.  And the basic tennet of the Mahayana, from which we can all learn is that wisdom in action &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; compassion.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thanks,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Zach</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 16:58:08 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576598</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T16:58:08Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576504</link> <description>I am so sorry that somehow you got the wrong impression. I am reworking MCTB and will try to see how that occurred. Were there specific passages that caused you to ignore the other places where I recommend that people be moral and do psychological work and reflect on feelings? Please point those out so that I can try to make it better.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You have to understand that the book has evolved in a specific cultural context and reacting to very specific cultural factors, those being specifically the profound focus on psychology rather than careful sensate investigation you find advocated by plenty of Western insight teachers, particularly at places like IMS, as well as what happens when plenty of hyper-psychologized Westerners try to make sense of techniques taught in Asia and related places.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus, it makes its case as a counterbalancing force to a culture whose focus purely on psychological development is so pervasive that plenty of people in it literally can&amp;#039;t hear anything that it says about bare sensate investigation and the Three Characteristics. Just a month ago, I had a conversation with a neuroscientist who had practiced for years and who teaches meditation at a major center for training people in mindfulness techniques, and he literaly couldn&amp;#039;t hear or understand one word I said about rapid sensate investigation, as the whole of his practice was about noticing areas of psychological clinging and trying not to do that. It is not that such work can&amp;#039;t be useful, as it obviously can, but he had a cognitive deficit against hearing about the world of sensate investigation and the methods and results of all of that which was so strong that I might as well have been speaking in Swahili.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When training in Morality, which I highly advocate, I think that psychological work and reflection on psychological, feeling and emotional aspects is a great idea, as I state many places. I also spend most of my waking day dealing with these things at a relative level, as is standard practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, when doing insight practices and trying to really understand the core of what things like the Abhidhamma are talking about, it really pays to be able to shut that down to the degree that allows one to drop to the level of the rapid back and forth oscilliation of mental and physical processes that creates the illusion of a self, observer, controller, etc. and to be able to see things like very little flicker of intention arise causally before each little flicker of action, and to see each little flicker of mental impression arise causally interspersed with other sensate impressions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It should be noted that, if you go on an insight retreat, nearly everyone in the small group meetings or the interviews with their teachers is dealing nearly 100% with psychological issues and things like back and knee pain and nearly nobody is doing the rapid, careful, steady, concentrated, clear, precise investigation that finally cuts through the core of ignorance. It is against this staggeringly unfortunate trend that MCTB  fights.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I truly recommend incorporating feelings, mind states, and all the rest into practice, both relative (Morality, meaning skillful reflection and contemplation of feelings and their consequences as such), and also ultimate, meaning the raw sense data in all forms, be those mental or physical, as failure to do either is obviously a serious problem, as you point out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is that helpful?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Daniel</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 07:58:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576504</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T07:58:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576478</link> <description>I think you have misread the book. I clearly get the impression that Daniel advocates investigating everything: thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. He just emphasises that everything can be broken down into smaller and smaller parts. Is that were you are getting caught up? </description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 05:10:23 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576478</guid> <dc:creator>Jason Snyder</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T05:10:23Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576460</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;To me, it&amp;#039;s sad that Daniel is only reluctant to admit that the ability to be mindful of mind, feelings, and mental contents is helpful to the practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;???&lt;br /&gt;I think you should read the book more carefully...&lt;br /&gt;it is quiet clearly written that all arising phenomena is worth to investigate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 04:11:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576460</guid> <dc:creator>Noting Monkey</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T04:11:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576442</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;this reminds me of &amp;#034;if you not a christian you will go to hell&amp;#034;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You recall that the Buddha taught the path to liberation as consisting of Sila, Samadhi, and Prajna right?  Most of the people here claim to practice something they call the &amp;#034;core teachings of the Buddha&amp;#034;.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt; If I say &amp;#039;not cultivating prajna means you will continue to exist in samsara&amp;#039; is that too dogmatic for you?  Or how about if I say &amp;#039;you won&amp;#039;t become an arhat if you don&amp;#039;t learn samadhi&amp;#039;?  But if I say you won&amp;#039;t become liberated if you don&amp;#039;t become an ethical person, that makes me sound like a Christian fundamentalist?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So you&amp;#039;re probably down with Samadhi and Prajna, but too cool for Sila or something like that.  That attitude does not lead to liberation which is all I&amp;#039;m here to say, despite how unpopular that is.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Well wishes.  </description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 03:12:59 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576442</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T03:12:59Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576434</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It was my understanding that Daniel intended the focus to be on physical phenomena only initially as physical phenomena are less seductive. The section on Impermanence mentions thoughts, the section on Equanimity mentions thoughts, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you mind defining &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, Daniel does concede that some psychological work can help one with insight practice&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;All that said, there is some debate about what factors or progress allows some people to just notice the Three Characteristics of the sensations that make up their world in the face of their stuff as opposed to those who just flounder in their stuff. Some would argue that you have to have done enough psychological work and deal with enough of your issues to get to the place were you can move on to the next stage. I must reluctantly admit that there is probably some truth to this. However, I didn’t consider myself particularly psychologically advanced when I started insight practices, as I had all kinds of stuff to deal with and still do, and yet somehow, perhaps through good instruction, perhaps through some other factors I have yet to identify, I was able to practice well despite it all and make the shift from being lost in content to noticing how things actually are.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, thanks for pointing out that those need clarification.  Let&amp;#039;s define a &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; as one who mindfully intends to cultivate the six transcendent virtues (paramitas) of generosity, discipline, patience, exertion, meditation, and prajna, as well as the four sublime abidings (brhamaviharas).  A person of &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039; is one who has realized these things to various degrees.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To me, it&amp;#039;s sad that Daniel is only reluctant to admit that the ability to be mindful of mind, feelings, and mental contents is necessary to the practice.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;this reminds me of &amp;#034;if you not a christian you will go to hell&amp;#034;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 02:57:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576434</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T02:57:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576424</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Droll Dedekind:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It was my understanding that Daniel intended the focus to be on physical phenomena only initially as physical phenomena are less seductive. The section on Impermanence mentions thoughts, the section on Equanimity mentions thoughts, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you mind defining &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, Daniel does concede that some psychological work can help one with insight practice&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;All that said, there is some debate about what factors or progress allows some people to just notice the Three Characteristics of the sensations that make up their world in the face of their stuff as opposed to those who just flounder in their stuff. Some would argue that you have to have done enough psychological work and deal with enough of your issues to get to the place were you can move on to the next stage. I must reluctantly admit that there is probably some truth to this. However, I didn’t consider myself particularly psychologically advanced when I started insight practices, as I had all kinds of stuff to deal with and still do, and yet somehow, perhaps through good instruction, perhaps through some other factors I have yet to identify, I was able to practice well despite it all and make the shift from being lost in content to noticing how things actually are.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, thanks for pointing out that those need clarification.  Let&amp;#039;s define a &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; as one who mindfully intends to cultivate the six transcendent virtues (paramitas) of generosity, discipline, patience, exertion, meditation, and prajna, as well as the four sublime abidings (brhamaviharas).  A person of &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039; is one who has realized these things to various degrees.   &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To me, it&amp;#039;s sad that Daniel is only reluctant to admit that the ability to be mindful of mind, feelings, and mental contents is helpful to the practice.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 02:44:11 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576424</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T02:44:11Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576418</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;dat Buddha-field:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;It seems like one aspect of the MCTB philosophy is that we can practice insight on the 3Cs, using physical sensations or their changing nature as the only object of our contemplations.  It also is argued that being an &amp;#034;enlightened&amp;#034; being does not necessarily make one a good person.  I want to argue that these two aspects of the MCTB philosophy are intimately related, and that failing to practice inisght on feelings and mental contents (aka &amp;#034;our stuff&amp;#034;) is why MCTB practitioners do not develop in a balanced way that integrates ethical maturity with phenomenal understanding.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A huge domain of human experience and confliction is wrapped up in our psychology.  The confliction we experience on this level (the kleshas) is a huge source of suffering, and a huge drain of energy.  On the level of body we experience this kind of internal conflict as bodily fabrication, and psychologically we experience it as conflicting emotions.  When one is liberated, the energy that normally goes towards feeding the kleshas is transmuted into the energy of wakefulness itself.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus the idea that we can practice meditation and compartmentalize insight from our basic psychology is a fundamental ignorance that fails to recognize the ways in which we fabricate our experience, our suffering, and eventually our liberation.  It&amp;#039;s a denial of how complicit we are in this process, and is a denial of our ability to transmute negative karma into liberation.  The Buddha taught four frames of reference for contemplating the nature of phenomena: body, feelings, mental contents, and mind.  Call me a &amp;#034;sutta head&amp;#034; if you&amp;#039;d like, but it seems clear that ignoring three out of these four frames of reference misses most of the pie.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are stuck in the Dark Night and the whole world seems shitty, your perceptions are frightening, and you are hating life there are different approaches you can take.  With the MCTB approach, you are told to suck it up and just keep noting sensate phenomena.  Another approach is to understand that the suffering you are currently experiencing is being created by you in the mind.  I&amp;#039;m making the humble proposal that it can be helpful to take a break from sensate phenomena, stop denying your basic psychological state, and take a look at what&amp;#039;s going on in your mind.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re an &amp;#039;Arhat&amp;#039; and still a dick, what is it that causes you to act that way?  Surely you can see the process as it arises, you&amp;#039;re capable of reflecting on the impact your words have, and you&amp;#039;re capable of forming the intention to be better next time around.  So why don&amp;#039;t you?  &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;I havent read the MCTB for a few years but I&amp;#039;m sure Dan advocates in the book to investigate everything - form, feeling, perception, formation, counsciousness looking for the 3Cs. Anyways the first nana&amp;#039;s should give insight into this</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 02:31:33 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576418</guid> <dc:creator>Jeff Grove</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T02:31:33Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576413</link> <description>It was my understanding that Daniel intended the focus to be on physical phenomena only initially as physical phenomena are less seductive. The section on Impermanence mentions thoughts, the section on Equanimity mentions thoughts, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Do you mind defining &amp;#039;good person&amp;#039; and &amp;#039;ethical maturity&amp;#039;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And, Daniel does concede that some psychological work can help one with insight practice&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #111111"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: Arial"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;All that said, there is some debate about what factors or progress allows some people to just notice the Three Characteristics of the sensations that make up their world in the face of their stuff as opposed to those who just flounder in their stuff. Some would argue that you have to have done enough psychological work and deal with enough of your issues to get to the place were you can move on to the next stage. I must reluctantly admit that there is probably some truth to this. However, I didn’t consider myself particularly psychologically advanced when I started insight practices, as I had all kinds of stuff to deal with and still do, and yet somehow, perhaps through good instruction, perhaps through some other factors I have yet to identify, I was able to practice well despite it all and make the shift from being lost in content to noticing how things actually are.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 02:28:05 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576413</guid> <dc:creator>Droll Dedekind</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T02:28:05Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>You're not liberated if you only practice insight on the sensate level</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576355</link> <description>It seems like one aspect of the MCTB philosophy is that we can practice insight on the 3Cs, using physical sensations or their changing nature as the only object of our contemplations.  It also is argued that being an &amp;#034;enlightened&amp;#034; being does not necessarily make one a good person.  I want to argue that these two aspects of the MCTB philosophy are intimately related, and that failing to practice inisght on feelings and mental contents (aka &amp;#034;our stuff&amp;#034;) is why MCTB practitioners do not develop in a balanced way that integrates ethical maturity with phenomenal understanding.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A huge domain of human experience and confliction is wrapped up in our psychology.  The confliction we experience on this level (the kleshas) is a huge source of suffering, and a huge drain of energy.  On the level of body we experience this kind of internal conflict as bodily fabrication, and psychologically we experience it as conflicting emotions.  When one is liberated, the energy that normally goes towards feeding the kleshas is transmuted into the energy of wakefulness itself.    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Thus the idea that we can practice meditation and compartmentalize insight from our basic psychology is a fundamental ignorance that fails to recognize the ways in which we fabricate our experience, our suffering, and eventually our liberation.  It&amp;#039;s a denial of how complicit we are in this process, and is a denial of our ability to transmute negative karma into liberation.  The Buddha taught four frames of reference for contemplating the nature of phenomena: body, feelings, mental contents, and mind.  Call me a &amp;#034;sutta head&amp;#034; if you&amp;#039;d like, but it seems clear that ignoring three out of these four frames of reference misses most of the pie.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you are stuck in the Dark Night and the whole world seems shitty, your perceptions are frightening, and you are hating life there are different approaches you can take.  With the MCTB approach, you are told to suck it up and just keep noting sensate phenomena.  Another approach is to understand that the suffering you are currently experiencing is being created by you in the mind.  I&amp;#039;m making the humble proposal that it can be helpful to take a break from sensate phenomena, stop denying your basic psychological state, and take a look at what&amp;#039;s going on in your mind.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;re an &amp;#039;Arhat&amp;#039; and still a dick, what is it that causes you to act that way?  Surely you can see the process as it arises, you&amp;#039;re capable of reflecting on the impact your words have, and you&amp;#039;re capable of forming the intention to be better next time around.  So why don&amp;#039;t you?  </description> <pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:37:12 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5576355</guid> <dc:creator>dat Buddha-field</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-09-03T00:37:12Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Long time since an update</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573902</link> <description>If we believe the whole buddhist cosmology, then this is a multi-life path.  Some of us may be finding the dhamma for the first time in this life and have a whole crap-load of karma and defilements to purify before we&amp;#039;re ready to transcend.  Others people may have been a stream-enterer or once-returner in the last life, so progress is totally natural.  Remember how long the Buddha worked toward becoming the Buddha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Assuming I&amp;#039;ve been around before, I have a notion that I&amp;#039;ve practiced this stuff before.  I remember when I went on my first retreat and learned &amp;#034;real&amp;#034; vipassna (not just watered down mindfulness) I thought, &amp;#034;Oh my god, I&amp;#039;ve found it!&amp;#034;  It felt so obvious and neccesary.  I made pretty quick progress, then got stalled, then made some more quick progress post MCTB, then got stalled again.  Now my motivation is in another waxing phase.  So you&amp;#039;re not alone in spending years to get stream entry.  Lets git &amp;#039;er done!!!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-T</description> <pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 13:26:47 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5573902</guid> <dc:creator>Teague</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-26T13:26:47Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Long time since an update</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572730</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Daniel Johnson:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;Hi everyone,&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for all the advice and comments. It took me a while to read through and digest the posts here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just saw this article today that seemed somewhat relevant and interesting: &lt;br /&gt;http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/10000-hour-rule-not-real-180952410/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically, the amount of time practicing may not be as important as some people suggest. This makes sense for me. They didn&amp;#039;t study meditation, it was things like sports and music, but I would guess meditation would have similar results.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m going on a 10 day retreat this week. I&amp;#039;m looking forward to it. I feel like I have a good idea of what I need to do, and so it&amp;#039;s time to do the work. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll update again when I return.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The time spent practicing vs. actual attainments has always been something that has baffled me, it seems like some people spend decades plugging away and don&amp;#039;t have the slightest hint of insight, and others can tag a path with minimal practice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Dipa Ma got first path in six days, and that&amp;#039;s just one example. I personally made it all the way up to Equanimity a few years ago with minimal sitting, not even realizing what was happening. It seems to be the opposite now, I can sit till the cows come home and not much happens.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you&amp;#039;ve been kicking around Re-Obs for as long as Ron thinks you have, you have the potential to make great progress on this retreat, because now you truly understand fundamental suffering. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Best wishes, may you attain stream entry!</description> <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:23:51 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572730</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-24T01:23:51Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Long time since an update</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572705</link> <description>I am generally in the Equanimity stage, and what really works for me when I feel stuck is alternating between Vipassana and Direct Inquiry. Asking &amp;#034;Who am I?&amp;#034; &amp;#034;Who/what is suffering/craving?&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;who sees/hears?&amp;#034;, &amp;#034;where am I?&amp;#034;, etc and then deconstructing the sensations that make those up, usually in the face/chest areas for me. Another trick that helps is to imagine that God/universe or whatever is looking out through my eyes, that I am a window of universal mind. Whether or not this is true, it sure produces some interesting states.</description> <pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2014 00:42:32 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572705</guid> <dc:creator>Jason Snyder</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-24T00:42:32Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Long time since an update</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572605</link> <description>Hi everyone,&lt;br /&gt;Thanks for all the advice and comments. It took me a while to read through and digest the posts here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I just saw this article today that seemed somewhat relevant and interesting: &lt;br /&gt;http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/10000-hour-rule-not-real-180952410/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Basically, the amount of time practicing may not be as important as some people suggest. This makes sense for me. They didn&amp;#039;t study meditation, it was things like sports and music, but I would guess meditation would have similar results.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;m going on a 10 day retreat this week. I&amp;#039;m looking forward to it. I feel like I have a good idea of what I need to do, and so it&amp;#039;s time to do the work. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#039;ll update again when I return.</description> <pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:36:27 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5572605</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel Johnson</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-08-23T20:36:27Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5558173</link> <description>This might be one of those where the real situation is far more complex than the question implies.  For instance, you&amp;#039;d have to consider the nature of reality and time and probabilities.  Is the future and past stable?  Or not?  Or are there probability branches?  If the first, then the whole time line may have already happened or is set, even things you think of as free will.  If the last, then maybe you test out multiple options causing multiple probability branches.  If the first, then even the perception of free will would be suspect.  If the last, then the whole question does not even really apply.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Other than those aspects, you might want to think about how you make decisions.  For instance, you want to go to the store but someone else borrowed the car, so you consider your options.  But there will be some options you failed to consider, why did you forget some of the options?   And why did you even decide to go to the store in the first place?  Where did the idea for going to the store and the ideas for your options originally come from?  You think you are free to choose between various options but how did you think up those options in the first place?  If  you only have a certain number of options but not all of them, is your choice really free?  You can&amp;#039;t take an option if you don&amp;#039;t even think of it first.   If you try to track back to the origin of ideas, IME, you can&amp;#039;t.  You either lose track of the thread or you get all the way back only to notice that the idea seemed to appear out of nowhere.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;At least for the conscious mind, the start of the ideas come from somewhere else that we can&amp;#039;t seem to see.  IMO, you&amp;#039;d have to understand more about that place where ideas come from to have any idea if there is free will, but I don&amp;#039;t know anyway who can see clearly into that place.  From the perspective of what I can consciously see, I can see why people would say that our conscious existance is causal.  The ideas come from someplace else and I can&amp;#039;t see from where but that place or whatever it is seems to be what &amp;#039;causes&amp;#039; the thoughts.  The conscious me does not seem to cause them but instead to notice them afterwards.  Perhaps that is similar to the Buddhist concept of &amp;#039;no self?&amp;#039;  But without being able to understand the place where ideas come from, I don&amp;#039;t see how the concept of free will can be reasonably considered with any expected accuracy.  But also without being able to see to there, I don&amp;#039;t know how I can feel confident there really is no self.  I can only feel confident that I don&amp;#039;t see origin of self in the conscious arena.    </description> <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2014 06:25:48 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5558173</guid> <dc:creator>Eva M Nie</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-17T06:25:48Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557372</link> <description>From an experiential point of view: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The sensations that seem to imply will and effort arise on their own, naturally, as part of the field of causality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The sensatuions that seem to imply effortlessness arise on their own, naturally, as part of the field of causality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Notice the sensations of will and effort arise and vanish on their own. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Notice the sensations of effortlessness and naturalness arise and vanish on their own.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Notice intentions arise and precede actions. They arise on their own: clearly perceive this and the mystery is clarified directly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;From a dependent origination point of view, it is on Ignorance of the bare sensate truth of these things that Volitional Formations depend, meaning the sense of a will, a doer, a watcher, a compounded, separate, continuous entity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perceive things really, really clearly, and this Ignorance is ended by that clear perception.</description> <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 23:59:00 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5557372</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-15T23:59:00Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556916</link> <description>The following talk by Alan Wallace approaches this topic from Buddisht, philosophical and scientific point of view. I heard it a couple of times and it&amp;#039;s worth your 115 mins. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaseed&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;teacher&amp;#x2f;295&amp;#x2f;talk&amp;#x2f;8234&amp;#x2f;"&gt;http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/295/talk/8234/&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&amp;#034;We must believe in free will, we have no choice&amp;#034;  - Isaac B. Singer&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;With Metta,&lt;br /&gt;V</description> <pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:52:41 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556916</guid> <dc:creator>Vijay V</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-14T13:52:41Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556303</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mind over easy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This has been weighing on my mind for the past few weeks, while contemplating anatta:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If causality is the law (which I don&amp;#039;t see any way around) and there are no agents to change causal phenomena, then isn&amp;#039;t one forced to conclude that determinism is the law? Determinism by the definition I know it lines up very well with anatta, in claiming that one&amp;#039;s will (if there is such a thing) cannot influence events.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Determinism does not mean that your &amp;#039;will&amp;#039; doesn&amp;#039;t have an influence on events. Just that your &amp;#039;will&amp;#039; is not independently generated out of thin air. To say will has no impact on things is fatalism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Also we need to be careful when we are talking about &amp;#039;laws&amp;#039; and absolutes. From a 1st person perspective causality is imputed rather than absolute. Since cause-&amp;gt;effect, requires time. Time is imputed. More detailed post here...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;dharmaoverground&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;discussion&amp;#x2f;-&amp;#x2f;message_boards&amp;#x2f;message&amp;#x2f;5354465"&gt;http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5354465&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description> <pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2014 15:47:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5556303</guid> <dc:creator>(D Z) Dhru Val</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-12T15:47:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554666</link> <description>You may want to look into some of the contemplative branches of Christianity and Sufism, with regards to the will of the Divine. I remember Bernadette Roberts talking about something called will-to-God that I think must relate to this subject, somehow...  Also, teachings on Karma, Ka, Fate, and things of that nature all relate to this issue.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When I&amp;#039;m working on the first training, I assume free will. When I&amp;#039;m doing insight practice, there is no free will, just phenomena unfolding according to the laws of the universe, no &amp;#034;self&amp;#034; in control at all. This is more obvious in Equanimity.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2014 18:14:17 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554666</guid> <dc:creator>Eric M W</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-09T18:14:17Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554573</link> <description>That reality is causal is a core tennant of Buddhism. It appeals to many scientists as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That causality is too complex to be fully understood is also a tennant of Buddhism, with the workings of Karma being one of the Four Imponderables, as there are too many factors that weight on what happens in each moment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That causality is the law of the land and there is no free will also works well in practice and holds up to rigorous insight practice and investigation, and ends up being one of the core foundations of deep wisdom.</description> <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2014 08:45:01 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554573</guid> <dc:creator>Daniel M. Ingram</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-09T08:45:01Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554558</link> <description>Look this stuff is really complicated but cause and effect includes such complex things like the big bang, entropy and evolution:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;GkCWywO93b8"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkCWywO93b8&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cause and effect &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;uQSoaiubuA0"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSoaiubuA0&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;Impermanence&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;fMaIiHFp-nk"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMaIiHFp-nk&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cause and Effect&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;Untoik6c_gs"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Untoik6c_gs&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;More impermanence&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;vLACGFhDOp0"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLACGFhDOp0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Arrow of time&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;91RHD0RSRxY"&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91RHD0RSRxY&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;What time is it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Arrow_of_time&amp;#x23;The_quantum_arrow_of_timewiki&amp;#x2f;Arrow_of_time&amp;#x23;The_quantum_arrow_of_time"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time#The_quantum_arrow_of_timewiki/Arrow_of_time#The_quantum_arrow_of_time&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;vLACGFhDOp0"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;The causal arrow of time&lt;span style="font-size: 10px"&gt;&lt;span style="color: #555555"&gt;[&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;w&amp;#x2f;index&amp;#x2e;php&amp;#x3f;title&amp;#x3d;Arrow_of_time&amp;#x26;action&amp;#x3d;edit&amp;#x26;section&amp;#x3d;7"&gt;edit&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style="color: #555555"&gt;]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #252525"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;A &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Causality"&gt;cause&lt;/a&gt; precedes its effect: the causal event occurs before the event it affects. Birth, for example, follows a successful conception and not vice versa. Thus causality is intimately bound up with time&amp;#039;s arrow.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #252525"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;An epistemological problem with using causality as an arrow of time is that, as &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;David_Hume"&gt;David Hume&lt;/a&gt; maintained, the causal relation per se cannot be perceived; one only perceives sequences of events. Furthermore it is surprisingly difficult to provide a clear explanation of what the terms &amp;#034;cause&amp;#034; and &amp;#034;effect&amp;#034; really mean, or to define the events to which they refer. However, it does seem evident that dropping a cup of water is a cause while the cup subsequently shattering and spilling the water is the effect.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="color: #252525"&gt;&lt;span style="font-family: sans-serif"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size: 16px"&gt;Physically speaking, the perception of cause and effect in the dropped cup example is a phenomenon of the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Thermodynamic"&gt;thermodynamic&lt;/a&gt; arrow of time, a consequence of the &lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Second_law_of_thermodynamics"&gt;Second law of thermodynamics&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Arrow_of_time&amp;#x23;cite_note-6"&gt;[6]&lt;/a&gt; Controlling the&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Future"&gt;future&lt;/a&gt;, or causing something to happen, creates [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(arrow_of_time)#Correlations]correlations between the doer and the effect,&lt;a href="http&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;en&amp;#x2e;wikipedia&amp;#x2e;org&amp;#x2f;wiki&amp;#x2f;Arrow_of_time&amp;#x23;cite_note-7"&gt;[7]&lt;/a&gt; and these can only be created as we move forwards in time, not backwards.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;a href="https&amp;#x3a;&amp;#x2f;&amp;#x2f;www&amp;#x2e;youtube&amp;#x2e;com&amp;#x2f;watch&amp;#x3f;v&amp;#x3d;vLACGFhDOp0"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description> <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2014 06:26:31 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554558</guid> <dc:creator>Richard Zen</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-09T06:26:31Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554345</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mind over easy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;If causality is the law (which I don&amp;#039;t see any way around) and there are no agents to change causal phenomena, then isn&amp;#039;t one forced to conclude that determinism is the law?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#039;s circular: &amp;#034;Determinism is the cause of determinism&amp;#034;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Question to play with: how does a &amp;#034;completely free will&amp;#034; work anyway? It can&amp;#039;t let its decisions be informed by any conditions, as that would influence and hence determine its decisions. It can&amp;#039;t let its decisions be informed by any consequences, as that would influence and determine the decisions. It can&amp;#039;t decide by weighing alternatives, because then it would be determined by preference. It can&amp;#039;t decide by chance, because then it would be ruled by chance...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another question to play with: How to you arrive at the conclusion that there are only these two possibilities, and that they are mutually exclusive?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Cheers,&lt;br /&gt;Florian</description> <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2014 10:33:36 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554345</guid> <dc:creator>Florian Weps</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-08T10:33:36Z</dc:date> </item> <item> <title>RE: Cracking the debate open: Free will vs. determinism in the Dharma</title> <link>http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554312</link> <description>&lt;div class="quote-title"&gt;Mind over easy:&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="quote"&gt;&lt;div class="quote-content"&gt;This has been weighing on my mind for the past few weeks, while contemplating anatta:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If causality is the law (which I don&amp;#039;t see any way around) and there are no agents to change causal phenomena, then isn&amp;#039;t one forced to conclude that determinism is the law? Determinism by the definition I know it lines up very well with anatta, in claiming that one&amp;#039;s will (if there is such a thing) cannot influence events.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What does the word &amp;#034;free&amp;#034; mean to you in this context? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Does it mean uncaused or unconstrained, both, or something else? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What attributes or abilities must it have in order to be called free?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If you drop the word free, does the question remain?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If will is a causal agent but is itself a product of numerous other causes and conditions, would you call that free will, determinism, both, or neither?</description> <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2014 07:12:58 GMT</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dharmaoverground.org/c/message_boards/find_message?p_l_id=&amp;messageId=5554312</guid> <dc:creator>John Wilde</dc:creator> <dc:date>2014-07-08T07:12:58Z</dc:date> </item> </channel> </rss> 