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SN Goenka Centers

SN Goenka Centers
Answer
3/30/08 7:19 AM
Author: Tracy.
Forum: Places to Practice

I want to start a category for info on SN Goenka centers. I know they aren't recommended by Daniel, but I think a lot of serious practice is possible there, especially for beginners. Each center has its own issues and facilities (for example, the Massachusetts center is building a huge, obnoxious pagoda which many community members oppose), but then again they have many things in common. Could we have a general SN Goenka review/discussion page, with sub-pages for the different geographic sites? I don't know how to set this up on the wiki.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 7:23 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Hi Tracy. You need to go to the "Places to practice" page (see on the left under WIKI PAGES) and select "Add page" (again, on the left). Next, give the new page a name, and choose the template "Places to practice". Follow through. When you finish the basic input, save the page. Later you may edit and add info and pictures as often as you wish.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 7:34 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I just notices you made a page on CIMC, so you figured it out. Good!

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 7:38 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

But can I add new pages "under" that page? I'm thinking of a structure like Places to Practice >> SN Goenka Centers >> Massachusetts, Texas, etc.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
Answer
3/30/08 8:35 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
There's a list with quite a few details at http://www.dhamma.org/en/bycountry/na/
Not sure how to go about this here. Send a message to Daniel and Vince to get their feedback on this.

You could start a thread on Goenka related stuff in each of our sections here, but not in the way to create a sub-wiki. For that purpose you can start a separate wetpaint wiki altogether and have all the structure and options as you like them. Just thinking. Sorry I can't help more.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 2:40 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Tracy,

You can totally have different centers under the SN Goenka Centers menu. All you need to do is once you've created a new page (ex. "Massachusetts" then click the "more tools" link at the top of the page. There are several options under there, but the one you are looking for is "move page". Click that, and then select the SN Goenka Centers page. That will place the Massachusetts page as a sub-page for that sub-page. A sub-sub-page if you will. ;-D

Best,

-Vince

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 4:20 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

Awesome. Thanks, Vince!

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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3/30/08 4:33 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Please don't misunderstand me, it is not that I do not recommend Goenka centers, as I know a good number of people who have gotten some real benefit from them, the price is clearly right, they are pretty on the up and up as centers and traditions go, I know numerous people who have crossed the Arising and Passing Away during their courses, and thus, there is much to be said for them.

I do have some critiques, however, about a few things. I do know that during the first 3 month retreat at IMS where they used the Mahasi method over body-scanning that they got many more stream enterers and others with deep insights and they basically never looked back. I know that many who have gotten into interesting territory on Goenka retreats have not had teachers there who could tell them what was happening, what to do next, how it might effect their daily life, etc., all of which I consider suboptimal and unfortunate. The tradition is a bit sectarian without necessarily the track record to justify this, though again, as a widespread, dana-based insight movement, the world is clearly a better place for it, and many do get their start there. In short, a mixed bag, but that is not the same as me not recommending them.

Best of luck posting your pages, and I do think that posting the pros and cons of various centers and where they is a very good thing, as plenty of people need local options, and more insight practice, even if I personally don't consider it the very most effective, sophisticated and fully developed, is definitely a good idea.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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10/5/09 12:23 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Hello!

given the teachers are not very helpful, what would you thing is the best plan to make most of Goenka´s retreats?

Would knowing the maps by heart an excellent idea, or do you think that it would not be of much help?

I did a Goenka retreat a few months ago, but because of my ignorance I couldn't really say how good or bad the teachers were, as I didn´t experienced nothing very fancy. I did feel some funky very pleasant tingling sensation in my hands, growing to the arms, but I never told them anything, just enjoyed and tried to be as equanimous as I could.

I'd love to do a retreat in Mahasi tradition, but I havent found anywhere relatively close to where I live, (Scotland...anyone knows?)


Thanks, and hello everybody, as this is my first post : D

Andy

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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10/5/09 9:20 PM as a reply to Andy Coke.
Andres Coca Lopez:

given the teachers are not very helpful, what would you thing is the best plan to make most of Goenka´s retreats?
Would knowing the maps by heart an excellent idea, or do you think that it would not be of much help?


I have wondered this myself. There is a Goenka retreat just outside of Toronto, which is far more accessible than, say, Barre, and you can't beat the price. But since the MCTB technique is firmly Mahasi, does their technique hinder, rather than help?

-- tomo

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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11/30/09 5:19 AM as a reply to Tom O..
As I said in a different post, here is another teacher from U Ba Khin tradition with centres around the world:

http://www.internationalmeditationcentre.org

I havent participated myself in any retreat with them, but it looks quite posh, so they may have more helpfull teachers.

Any thougth?

Andy

RE: SN Goenka Centers
Answer
12/31/09 2:10 PM as a reply to Tom O..
I just got back from 6 months at the Goenka center in North Fork doing long term service. I sat five ten-day courses while there, and served on 6 courses, plus a children's course emoticon

I would pretty much agree with what's been said:

pros:
good environment.
good discipline that keeps away the lazy space cadet types.
Teaching is excellent for a new student (but declines from there since you pretty much have to take the same beginner's ten day over and over again).
Donation only - Dana!
All over the world!
Not watered down western style - real Burmese flavor.

cons: some people don't like his chanting (way off key).
Sectarian (in the sense that part of the teaching is to "find a technique and marry it." They don't insist that it should be this technique, but whatever technique/teacher works for you - marry that one and don't be promiscuous. I think this comes from Goenka's Indian culture of gurus and arranged marriages having been met by the influx of uncontrolled lsd dropping freelove hippies who came to his early courses.)
Because the teachers and managers are all volunteers, it changes from course to course, and there is a lot of variance. Some are good, some not so good. Total crapshoot. For the most part, I found the assistant teachers to be unhelpful.
10 day retreats are the max you can do for the first 2 years of practice. Then, you can do 20 day retreats (but ONLY if you tell them that you only practice in the tradition of S.N. Goenka and no other practices whatsoever). Still, you must wait another few months before you can do a 30 day retreat, and the 45 day and 60 day retreats are very rare and hard to get into. Nothing longer than that.
Also, the 10 day retreat is repeated over and over and over and over and over again. It gets old.

One note that's important: It's not that the "teachers" are unhelpful. The "teacher" is S.N. Goenka. He's pretty helpful. Unfortunately, he's not there. It's the "assistant teachers" who are often unhelpful.

My advice to make the best out of it is simple: go and practice exactly as your taught (the core of the teaching is very sound), put your heart into it. Don't have any expectation that the assistant teachers will help you (and if they do, consider it a bonus!) Read Daniel Ingram's "General Advice for Retreats" on his website.

You can get a lot out of it. And mostly, the cons that I listed can be ignored or worked around.

If Goenka was the only access to dhamma that I had - I would still feel 1000000% grateful. Dhamma is dhamma, and Dhamma is wonderful! What magnificent karma we have that we live in a world with so much access to the Dhamma. Incredible! The only reason I'm moving on is because for whatever incredible karmic reason... there are even better places to practice! How cool is that?!

Be happy.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/4/08 7:04 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

Yes, I very much agree with your assessment, as you can see from my review. I tried to keep an objective tone, so if anyone else sees a negative bias, they're welcome to correct it.

My question in this thread was also trying to get at how tightly or loosely this wiki is meant to conform to interactivebuddha.com. Should it (the wiki as opposed to the discussion forum) be a big, expansive democratic site, or a more streamlined collection of high-quality practical information? If it's the latter, then it seems like the wiki will end up re-creating the structure and content of Daniel Ingram's website, with the added feature of a discussion board. The majority of what's on here IS new, but, um... it's not growing very fast. I think that people with all different levels of attainment should use this site to share their experiences and knowledge, even when that experience does not line up with what they've read on Daniel's site. I wonder if the reason why this isn't happening is that new members are afraid to contribute material that could be considered "wrong" by moderators.

Or it could be that the site is still in its initial phase, and those who do post here have Stuff to Do in the Real World.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/4/08 9:31 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
My understanding is this site is definitely aimed at being broader than Daniel's site, but with the same spirit of his work, to have meaningful, practical, and moderated discussion about various techniques, attainments, teachers, places to practice, etc. So, it's certainly broader then Daniel's work but not so broad that anything goes. Moderation, to some degree, is always necessary in a space where there is a clear mission and vision. That being said, it's always a fine line between moderating and squashing discussion. I feel, like you it sounds, that having people of all levels of theoretical and practical understanding contribute will make this a very rich and beautiful project.

I think it is still in an initial phase, with only 41 members (pretty small for a web community), and from my experience is highly active given that number. When there are a few hundred I suspect there will be much more participation, and it will quickly become an extremely useful resources for all practitioners interested in pragmatic dharma. Or at least, that's the hope.

:-D

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/4/08 10:03 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Part of this stems from the relatively small size of the site. Today half my office is out so I obviously have some free time, and our clients are broke now so I've had idle time.

Experiences that don't line up are good, since they might help the map-makers here. This is also a small site, too, there are only a few people here; my only prohibition against sharing experiences or theories are that a lot of it isn't that helpful or pragmatic.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/4/08 10:52 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I very much hope that this site is far beyond my site, broader than my emphases, includes a wide array of practitioners and traditions, but, as Vince stated, I am very much into certain points, such as practical, you-can-do-it, empowering, straightforward, open, real-world dharma. I personally have drawn from many traditions along the way and gotten a lot out of this, though sorting out what is useful and what is fantasy, what is dogma and what is truth has taken work.

I think that alternate points of view are good, and some of my most interesting dharma conversations have been with people from Christian Mystical, Western Mystery, and other traditions that superficially look very different from some of what is here but in reality share many common elements.

Thus, please feel free to contribute whatever you genuinely feel will help you and the other posters to get these things in the deepest sense.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/5/08 4:11 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I got too enthusiastic with the cut and paste function--by that I mean "personal prohibiton against sharing my experiences"

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/9/08 8:00 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Yverc

I might visit a 10 day retreat. However i googled goenka and found some negative reviews about the retreats. This was the most negative review: http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/goenka.htm

Do you think the guy just had bad luck? If i am to visit a retreat i want to be allowed to take a piss if i really need to.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/10/08 4:26 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

Wow, that guy's pretentious ("If you have not read the Buddha's four discourses on meditation, I have recently rendered a few improvements in their translation."??).

But his review does raise a couple real issues, especially the possibility that you will get an Assistant Teacher who is unable to guide you in a skillful way. A really good meditation teacher might have explained to this guy that he should try coupling his relaxation and absorption with continued alert observation, just to see what happens. The teacher should have recognized that someone who is so set in his ways is going to need polite and knowledgeable persuasion to change, rather than just an order to change or leave. The problem is that obedience and enthusiasm seem to be the characteristics most valued in students by the organization, so the most obedient and enthusiastic students are trained to be teachers. A student who displays these qualities might be wise and compassionate, or he might not. So it is largely a matter of luck.

Anyway, the thing about the bathrooms is true. There are 4 1-hour periods in each day when you are not allowed to leave the meditation hall. However, if something goes really wrong (bloody nose, bathroom emergency, etc), they're not going to stop you from leaving. That reviewer got to take his bathroom break, but he also got scolded by the course manager. So what? You have to be autonomous and know when you NEED to get up. They want everyone to stay in the hall during these times so that students will learn to break the habit of overreacting to unpleasant sensations. If your problem is going to have real consequences for others (such as urine all over the floor), of course it's better to leave the hall. There is no penalty for getting up during these times.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/10/08 5:04 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
The only thing I think you can conclude from Jhananada's sometimes paranoid review is that you probably don't want to visit that particular center or one led by that particular staff--e.g., they kick someone out for practicing "chakra meditation" after he reports following their technique because he is going through "swaying", a common side-effect?

That said, I made a point of steering clear from the prunes or lots of cabbage at the last retreat I was at.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/10/08 6:21 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Tracy.

After searching Jhanananda's website for a little while, it seems like it would be extremely hard to persuade him to go for insight instead of absorption. So it might be unfair to blame the Goenka teacher for failing.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/12/08 12:35 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Regarding Jhanananda, this guy found our local sitting groups listserve a few years ago and eventually I had to block him. We all deal with our demons. Enough said.

I did my first 10-day retreat at the North Fork Center and found it very good and recommend the place to people. They keep you focused and encourage you to work hard. I learned a tremendous amount. They focus on practice. Food was great :-)

They have their quirks and if someone already has a strong practice not in that tradition then I would not recommend them. But it never hurts to check them out - their hearts are in the right place.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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5/29/08 4:54 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Personnally, I startet doing noting practice only and did not try anything else until I had some basic insights. Recently I crossed a point where I find the noting getting in the way of my practice because it´s slowing me down, so I tried something else including the Goenka-method and found it quite suitable for me. So I cannot share the opinions expressed in the posts saying that it is better for real beginners.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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12/3/08 7:54 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: Gavesini

I think Daniel's opinion of Goenka centres is quite accurate. In fact they are very sectarian and not just a bit sectarian. I am speaking from personal experience at one such centre outside the States. They seemed to be very rigid and followed the "rules" of their tradition to the letter which kind of put me off especially like not accepting donations(dana) from my Buddhist friends just because they were not Goenka students and not accepting my offer of service at their retreats for the same reason. They told me I had to do their usual 10 day retreat before my offer could be considered...and that was I did, a year later. Not that I wanted to be one of them. Even though I have 20 years of practice in about 100 Mahasi style of intensive retreats I was quite curious about their way of practice as some of my students had in the past asked for my opinion of the tradition.To be able to do honestly that I had to sit in their retreat. To say the least I was not impressed by the teachers and they did threatened to show me the door if I did not do as instructed. They also objected to me walking slowly and doing walking meditation.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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12/6/08 5:52 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I use to go to Goenca center every year and feel happy I have this option inside the country since I cant permit myself to go out-money and timewise.I stoped asking questions after getting few nonsatisfying answers from assistant teachers/thanks Daniel book I can use their fasilities and push my practice forvard'concidering the maps until I ll be able to go to some other retreat.basicly even all their strict rules dont prevent the beginners from practicing less seriously then expected.and usually the beguiners are the majority in the course.I also admit that my positive attitude is due not knowing something else for comparison

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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2/24/09 12:14 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: yadidb

My only experience of meditation retreats is of those taught by SN Goenka, so i will just like to share that.

I've sat several retreats and served on several others,
the positive aspects i found are: teachers are always volunteers, and never even accept donations, they must earn their livelihood in other ways.
technique wise, 1/3rd of retreats is dedicated to anapanasati at the nostrils, 2/3rds to vipassana, or vedananupassana at the beginning atleast, sensations throughgout the body, in more advanced courses Goenka explains the whole mahasatipatthana sutta and the other foundations of mindfulness (kaya, citta, dhamma).

another positive aspect i found is that centres are dedicated to hardcore, diligent practice, and not to theoretical or philosophical discussions.
a course in this tradition involves over 10 hours of formal sitting practice in the hall or in a meditation cell (in the more ideal centres).

some negative aspects i've found: some people involved in serving tend to be dogmatic in regards to rules of the centre (which are important, but are followed dogmatically sometimes),
ideolizing of goenka.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
Answer
8/11/09 5:21 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
Author: AidanPelly

Would like to add my experience of Goenka retreats. I have sat 4. 3 10-days, Japan, Thailand, and Cambodia and a Satipattana in Cambodia. I had been meditating mostly with a Thich Nhat Hanh group and I have done a couple of his retreats.
I found the strict discipline and structure of the retreats very useful. It helped me to get beyond thinking and into the body which was an important shift for me. I have some ambivalence to the technique overall because it is so unrelenting. On the positive side, I have found that this unrelenting quality both leads to sharpened concentration and deeper appreciation of technique and the nature of hindrances etc - though this has been more through abandoning his instructions to a degree and using either the anapana or body scanning (depending on level of concentration) as a basis/ideal resting position but then being pleased to meet/investigate objects as they come up. To an extent this seems to be implied by Goenka himself with anapana/scanning being seen as both the most effective and suitable techniques for beginners.
On a negative side, I find a growing sense of aversion to sitting often develops as I am very tall and not physically made for cross-legged sitting - and this aversion is fatiguing and a barrier to concentration/investigation.
I have not learnt anything or received any advice of value from any of the interviews with the teachers I have had in the Goenka tradition, but the presence of strong meditator leading the group I find useful.
I find listening to him chant rather exhausting - and think he could also create his `positive vibrations` by involving meditors better. However, I loved hearing the 75mins of mahasatipattana on satipattana retreat - though I cheated and went and followed it in my room with the script. Goenka knows how to chant very well. Anyone have an mp3 of it? Found it useful to compare interpetations of the sutta with Analayo`s understanding (ISBN:1899579540).

RE: SN Goenka Centers
goenka
Answer
2/2/10 12:52 PM as a reply to Wet Paint.
I will add my comments, which are largely in agreement with the others in this discussion. I have done three 10-day retreats "with" Goenka, one at North Fork (the established center in the Sierra foothills of California) and two at a rented facility near Sebastopol north of San Francisco. Having learned meditation and developed my practice largely with Gil Fronsdal at Insight Meditation Center, my focus is breathing meditation, so Goenka's body scanning style of meditation is not my preference. For many reasons, after these three Goenka retreats I doubt I will do another.

However, I recommend them without reservation. Unlike the less physically demanding and rigorous retreats at Spirit Rock and many other Western centers, the Goenka retreats are really a "Buddhist Boot Camp" and enormously valuable on many levels. I won't offer comments on the specifics of the retreats, as I think it best for first time attendees to go in with as few preconceptions as possible (I literally knew nothing about Goenka when I attended my first retreat and think that made for the best experience), but anyone considering it should feel confident that they are well-run, well-intentioned, and a safe, positive place to learn and practice.

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/11/10 9:42 AM as a reply to Ted Weinstein.
hello ted, if i may ask, what about the body scanning technique don't u like

i tried the course 2 times, after previously doing noting and experimenting around with other methods.
i find the body scanning technique useful and im right now trying to decide what technique to stick to..

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/11/10 5:45 AM as a reply to Wet Paint.
The internet is full of unpleasant attacks on the SN Goenka courses, almost all of which center on the fact that they are "too hardcore". By contrast, it is so refreshing to come across such balanced, constructive criticism here. : )

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/13/10 11:20 AM as a reply to Aziz Solomon.
Dear Aziz,

Glad you like it.

Strangely, while I haven't been on a Goenka retreat, what I hear of them doesn't sound hardcore enough for me, not enough emphasis on every sensation, every second technique from the moment of waking to the moment of sleeping, not enough emphasis on progress, no maps, low expectations on people getting stream entry and beyond, low quality discussion of technical aspects, etc.

Anyway, just one opinion.

Daniel

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/14/10 6:23 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Dear Daniel,

And I gather that Mahasi course participants rise at 3.30AM, compared with a leisurely 4AM wake up time on the Goenka course!
At least in my own experience (just one Goenka course), the physical ordeal of sitting for so many hours on end can at times have the quality of a kind of endurance test or an exercise in bodily mortification if you're not used to it. With hindsight, it it is possible that I might have made more progress if some of the time had been spent on walking meditation, which also seems to offer an excellent way for insight to reveal itself amidst daily activity outside the retreat setting too.

Up until coming across your book about a week ago, I had assumed that Goenka's approach was the sole alternative to the norms of the commercialized, superstition-infested, guru-obsessed spiritual supermarket. Without wanting to sound guru-infatuated myself, I really want to express my sincere gratitude to you for making pure Dhamma accessible to so many of us in a new, creative idiom, without fundamentally dumbing it down. It is vitally important work you are doing.

Aziz

RE: SN Goenka Centers
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4/16/10 1:57 AM as a reply to Aziz Solomon.
Thanks for the encouragement. It is always good to hear.

Walking is great: I had some really important breakthroughs while walking. It shouldn't be underestimated. It keeps the energy up, provides durable concentration, and helps us integrate practice into the more motion-oriented, open-eyed world of daily life.