IanAnd:
J C:
Rupa does include sense contact, correct? Would it be accurate to call that aspect of rupa "perception"? So could we say rupa = "matter and the perception of it"?
No, it does not include sense contact. And no that [meaning perception] is not an aspect of rupa, therefore it would not be accurate. And no, rupa is not "matter and the perception of it."
I stand partially corrected. Beoman's question had me going back to check through the sutta he mentioned and to check my notes on the subject.
Rupa does include sense contact (even according to the sutta that Beoman quoted), yet
rupa is meant to refer to form or matter and
not the aggregate of perception. Even the essay I wrote that I linked to makes mention of this, too. "The aggregate of material form (
rupa)
includes the physical body with its sense faculties as well as external material objects." However, you have to understand these things without conflating terminology; that was my concern with J C's conflation of
rupa with the term "perception." Yes, I agree these terms are all related to one another; but you cannot have the aggregate of
sanna conflated with the aggregate of
rupa, was my only point. The
perception of
rupa (by the mind through one of the six sense bases) is a separate activity
and aggregate. What is being alluded to in that Samyutta is the dependent co-arising of this awareness of form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness, dependent upon contact with the six sense bases of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind with craving and the four elements thrown in for good measure.
This is a very tricky concept to get across to people (the six sense bases and the tendency to conflate "recognition" with the bare essence of contact with an object). Recognition comes later in the process. Although in the real world of experience, it all seems to run in together, which can be somewhat misleading when attempting to understand the process itself. I had a difficult time understanding this distinction, too. I was conflating consciousness with perception. But these terms have a specific and distinct meaning when used in reference to the five aggregates, which was cleared up for me by reading Rahula's book. In the book he makes a distinction between consciousness and perception. I explained this distinction in my essay:
The fifth aggregate, consciousness (
vinnana), is
the basic awareness of an object necessary for all cognition. As with the three preceding aggregates, consciousness is a response which has one of the six internal faculties (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind) as its basis and one of the six corresponding external phenomena (visible form, sound, odor, taste, touch, and mental object) as its object. Once again, it should be understood here
that consciousness does not recognize an object. Recognition of an object is the function of perception. The function of consciousness is only to be aware of the presence of an object.
Rupa is, however, matter or form
and the use of the sense faculties as expressed in the sutta from the Okkantisamyutta that Beoman referenced. Unfortunately, he only brought up one of the ten small suttas in that Samyutta. Following are the other nine suttas taken from my copy of the
Connected Discourses of the Buddha The Samyutta Nikaya, which make it more clear how this teaching is to be understood. Each brief sutta is numbered and is preceded by the subject of the sutta. In addition to discussing the five aggregates and the six sense bases, it also provides some interesting thought about the definition of a stream-enterer from the perspective of the discourses.
SN 25.2
PTS: S iii 225
25 Okkantisamyutta
translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi
1 The Eye
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear ... The nose ... The tongue ... The body ... The mind is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."[270]
2 Forms [Rupa Sutta: Forms]
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Sounds ... Odours ... Tastes ... Tactile object ... Mental phenomena are impermanent, changing becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness...; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream- entry.
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness ...; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment at his destination."
Footnote:
270 This statement makes it clear how the stream-enterer differs from those on the way to stream-entry. The faith-follower accepts the teachings on trust (with a limited degree of understanding), the Dhamma-follower through investigation; but the stream-enterer has known and seen the teachings directly.
3 Consciousness
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Ear-consciousness ... Nose-consciousness ... Tongue-consciousness ... Body-consciousness ... Mind consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
4 Contact
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Ear-contact ... Nose-contact ... Tongue-contact ... Body-contact ... Mind-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
5 Feeling
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, feeling born of eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Feeling born of ear-contact ... Feeling born of nose-contact ... Feeling born of tongue-contact ... Feeling born of body-contact ... Feeling born of mind contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
6 Perception
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, perception of forms is impermenent, changing, becoming otherwise. Perception of sounds ... Perception of odours ... Perception of tastes ... Perception of tactile objects ... Perception of mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
7 Volition
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, volition regarding forms is impermenent, changing, becoming otherwise. Volition regarding sounds ... Volition regarding odours ... Volition regarding tastes ... Volition regarding tactile objects ... Volition regarding mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
8 Craving
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, craving for forms is impermenent, changing, becoming otherwise. Craving for sounds ... Craving for odours ... Craving for tastes ... Craving for tactile objects ... Craving for mental phenomena is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
9 Elements
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, the earth element is impermenent, changing, becoming otherwise. The water element ... The heat element ... The air element ... The space element ... The consciousness element is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."
10 Aggregates
At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Feeling ... Perception ... Volitional formations ... Consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination."