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Dealing with the Dark Night

Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.

People around here seem to talk an awful lot about how horrible the dark night can be. It's true, it is inherently unpleasant. Most people also tend to spend the majority of their pre-stream entry practice as Dark Night Yogis. To me, this is very indicative of the general mindset here.

If you're busy stressing about how awful the Dark Night is, you're missing the point! Aversive circlejerks about the DN are supremely unskillful.

This is a perspective on the practice that Daniel has mentioned, but I don't see discussed often and I don't feel gets enough recognition.

If your Dark Night seems to be some eternal, hellish nightmare you're not approaching it in a skillful way. The primary reason you are in the DN is because you need to learn it's lessons. The DN is a powerful teacher. Listen to what it has to say. Aversion to the DN is understandable, but an unskillful approach. Don't turn away from reality.

You're going to be in the DN until you learn what it is trying to teach you. There are difficult but important lessons to be had. Note and release your aversion to the DN. More than that, become the dark night! Revel in all it's horrific, frightening, and terrible glory. Let the Dark Night flow through you! Attain it's evil bliss.

If you can do that, it will likely be far easier than you have been led to believe. Be mindful of the 3Cs and don't turn away from reality, it's as simple as that.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 2:49 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
it's so easy to say those things when not really in DN, is it?

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 3:11 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
It's the realization that got me out of it.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 3:34 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
Paweł K:
it's so easy to say those things when not really in DN, is it?

Pretty much this. OP is right, but it's not always that easy.

The DN is like a Chinese finger trap. That one has been floating around in my head lately, figured I'd take my chance to get it out there

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 6:08 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
Its hard to be mindful of the 3C's when you can only really understand them with the mind based on reading and not with direct experience/insight. Actually, it isn't hard to be mindful, just hard to really KNOW them. This just means I need to meditate more.

The direct knowing of the 3C's is (or 2?) is a recipe for stream entry right? I think I saw that on this board somewhere..

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 6:42 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
dat Buddha-field,You're not wrong, you're just being callous. Most likely to elicit a response.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 7:35 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
dat Buddha-field:
People around here seem to talk an awful lot about how horrible the dark night can be. It's true, it is inherently unpleasant.

No it isn't. Third jhana is inherently pleasant, but the murky center and complex harmonics can bring up our dark stuff in a hurry. If you stick with body sensations or a rarified object such as a candle flame, you will probably be all set, but it is very easy to get caught up in our dark stuff and have a difficult time.

The DN has positive aspects, for example it is a great time to cultivate compassion, the second sublime abode.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/1/14 11:18 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
You're going to be in the DN until you learn what it is trying to teach you


I see this mentioned but I don't know exactly what is meant by it. Could you elaborate? Could you give some examples from your experience if it's not too personal, so we have a better idea of what kind of lessons are to be learned and what to look for?

Are you referring to something along the lines of not making rash decisions that have strong and irreversible outcomes as mentioned in MCTB, and the things that can be learned from those irreversible outcomes?

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 12:08 AM as a reply to Trial And Error.
@Trial and Error

In the DN, for me, noting impermanence and unsatisfactoriness was easy.

Reality got pixely, was warpy at times, and deep meditation made reality feel much less solid. It seemed tissue paper thin at times. I recognized impermanence.

I had many unpleasant sensations while sitting such as intense itching, intense sharp needle-like sensations. Recognizing unsatisfactoriness was extremely clear.

Recognizing not-self was much tougher, and was where I was stuck. From my perspective, it seems like many here suffer the same issue.

My DN had intense states of fear, existential angst, and doubt. My stuff came up frequently. I strongly identified with all my states and stuff. I had fear. I had angst. I had doubt. I couldn't separate myself from these, and I lived in hell.

These states are not-self. Your "stuff" is not-self. This is the message many seem slow to realize. Seeing fear as not-self gives you space from it. Having fear arise and being the scared one are very different things.

Understanding not-self gives you space from what arises while simultaneously allowing you to be more intimate with it. If you're stuck in a seemingly endless dark night you have failed to realize this. Quit identifying with your shit and start noting it. That's the practice.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 12:07 AM as a reply to Jake WM.
@Jake WM

Yes, understanding the 3Cs is the whole practice. It's what will take you to stream entry.

If you can't recognize them, you're not in the Dark Night. Nonetheless, I bet you can recognize them and you don't even realize it.

Feel a sensation, like an itch, arise and pass away. Boom, impermanence.

Recognize pain. Boom, unsatisfactoriness.

Realize that you are not your thoughts. Boom, not-self.

That's how understanding of these things starts. As you traverse the territory your understanding of them will get subtler and subtler.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 12:10 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
dat Buddha-field,You're not wrong, you're just being callous. Most likely to elicit a response.


It's a perspective that's needed around here. People get caught up in the dark night and forget the practice.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 1:59 AM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
Recognize pain. Boom, unsatisfactoriness


Could you give more examples to unsatisfactoriness that are less obvious?

I have more trouble with this than the other Cs.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 6:43 AM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
dat Buddha-field:
@Jake WM

Yes, understanding the 3Cs is the whole practice. It's what will take you to stream entry.

If you can't recognize them, you're not in the Dark Night. Nonetheless, I bet you can recognize them and you don't even realize it.

Feel a sensation, like an itch, arise and pass away. Boom, impermanence.

Recognize pain. Boom, unsatisfactoriness.

Realize that you are not your thoughts. Boom, not-self.


Hmm.. I have recognized them before but only on the surface level if you know what I mean.. I have been meditating and watched many sensations arise and pass away, even thoughts. I have felt pain, disgust, depression, anxiety, and these are incredibly unsatisfactory. The realization that I wasn't my thoughts is what triggered my a&p and I am completely aware of this (although sometimes they still trap me).

dat Buddha-field:

That's how understanding of these things starts. As you traverse the territory your understanding of them will get subtler and subtler.


I understand them but I haven't been able to get deep enough into meditation yet to see them on a truly microscopic level, such as actually feeling tiny little atoms whizz in and out of reality. This is not something I go into meditation expecting by the way, just an example i've read on this board before.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 10:54 AM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
dat Buddha-field:
Dream Walker:
dat Buddha-field,You're not wrong, you're just being callous. Most likely to elicit a response.


It's a perspective that's needed around here. People get caught up in the dark night and forget the practice.

A callous perspective is what is needed? Have you considered that each persons dark night can be subjectively better or worse than another's? Could your experiences be twice as bad as anothers? what about 10X as easy?
The message of practice well with skillfulness and diligence is always useful...As the dude say's "You're not wrong Walter"
~D

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 11:54 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
A callous perspective is what is needed? Have you considered that each persons dark night can be subjectively better or worse than another's? Could your experiences be twice as bad as anothers? what about 10X as easy?
The message of practice well with skillfulness and diligence is always useful...As the dude say's "You're not wrong Walter"
~D


The practice is to recognize emotional stuff as not-self. Like I said elsewhere, being able to recognize something as not-self gives you space from it and allows you to engage it in a more skillful way.

Moral support during the DN is great and all, but it's meaningless if people forget the practice. Even advanced practitioners needed to be reminded sometimes.

If saying that makes me an asshole, then I'm glad to be one.

The people with the worst of the worst DNs are the people who need to hear this message the most, because they are the ones clinging the hardest. The less you cling, the less you'll get burned.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 12:14 PM as a reply to Trial And Error.
Trial And Error:
Could you give more examples to unsatisfactoriness that are less obvious?

I have more trouble with this than the other Cs.


Sure. Like I said in my last comment to you, I experienced intense needle-like sensations that were very unpleasant. Intense itching, and getting hot during meditation which was unpleasant. The emotional and mental states such as fear, doubt, and angst were all unpleasant.

Sometimes I felt myself grasping at sensations with awareness in a way that felt jarring. I think Daniel has described something similar in his practice, as "feeling out of phase with objects" or something like that.

There's no super secret magick trick to discerning the 3Cs. It's all right there in your experience. You might be over-thinking things and expecting the 3Cs to be way more profound than they actually are. The 3Cs are extremely ordinary, it's just a matter of teaching yourself to experience reality through the lens of them.

Also, the 3Cs are all linked to each other. For example, I had attachment to self-image. Thus recognizing aspects of my identity and attachment to it, as not-self, was difficult/jarring/unsatisfactory.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 1:03 PM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
Recognize pain. Boom, unsatisfactoriness.
wow, that's some really deep insight you have there dude emoticon

but seriously realizations of 'actually I am fine' are kinda like realization that headache ended. When it lasted you could do nothing to stop it but the moment it ends is almost like it was your choice to end it. Its illusion.

DN can hit even someone who think now that he is on top of the world because old thinking patters are not immediately eradicated and mind will experience dukkha of clinging, aversion and ignorance for many times before it finally give it up


BTW. there might be some value to this topic after all because after reading it I had insight about real source of my current DN. As valid as it was it's not solving anything yet but I have feeling that when time comes it will. Though I do not really see what part of your advice was relevant, probably just mere thinking about DN made me realize I might be in one and my struggle to integrate some part of me was causing it and it was not working cause it is already integrated. Kinda like trying to catch own tail won't ever work for dogs emoticon

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/2/14 1:40 PM as a reply to Paweł K.
You seem to not understand what I'm saying so I will clarify for you.

Paweł K:
Recognize pain. Boom, unsatisfactoriness.
wow, that's some really deep insight you have there dude emoticon


I was explaining 3Cs at their most basic level for someone who claimed to not be able to have mindfulness of them, and only have an intellectual understanding. It would behoove you to read in context before you decide to be a dick.

Pawel K:
but seriously realizations of 'actually I am fine' are kinda like realization that headache ended. When it lasted you could do nothing to stop it but the moment it ends is almost like it was your choice to end it. Its illusion.


I'm not teaching realization of "I'm fine". I'm saying remember the practice and note phenomena as not-self. Of course you have the power to end your own headache silly, that's why enlightenment is possible. Getting through the dark night is not about toughing it out, it's about maturing your wisdom.

Pawel K:
mind will experience dukkha of clinging, aversion and ignorance for many times before it finally give it up


Yes, and finally giving it up is a matter of being mindful of the Dharma.


Pawel K:
BTW. there might be some value to this topic after all because after reading it I had insight about real source of my current DN. As valid as it was it's not solving anything yet but I have feeling that when time comes it will. Though I do not really see what part of your advice was relevant, probably just mere thinking about DN made me realize I might be in one and my struggle to integrate some part of me was causing it and it was not working cause it is already integrated. Kinda like trying to catch own tail won't ever work for dogs emoticon


So you're saying you looked into the nature of your Dark Night and had insight? Miraculous!

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/3/14 9:14 AM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
Thanks OP, this is an important perspective that I agree is not emphasized enough in the culture of this community. While similar advice is often given by the more elder practitioners here, it does seem that the culture of this community often obscures this. Part of the reason may be that many folks find their way here as DN yogis who stumbled into an A&P event with little preparation and hence don't have solid practices established by the time they find themselves in the dark night.
This being the case an emphasis on the practical approach to the dark night is just what the doctor ordered I think.

All too often folks-- especially those who have the longest and most dramatic (as judged by posts anyhow) DN-- are either overemphasizing the content of their DN as opposed to merely noticing the arising and passing of content on subtler and subtler levels, or else, trying to power through the DN through aggressive practice which conveniently reinforces the felt sense of being a solid practitioner-self.

The above isn't bad because those kids aren't cool enough or whatever else bullshit, it's bad because folks are getting stuck in their practice and are hindering their own natural unfolding of insight and liberation. Some of the reactions to your post seem like they are trying to project a judging mindset onto what you are saying but that's not what I am reading in your OP. It is not an issue of shaming folks or judging folks which also would reinforce their sense of being a solid separate self, but rather of a wake-up call that good practice will facilitate the unfolding of the stages of practice resulting in liberation and awakening and that anyone can do this if they simply come back to the basics again and again on subtler and subtler levels as the latter naturally arise in awareness and so thanks for bringing up this topic and trying to help folks out. This community could use more firm and clear voices like this as that might result in newcomers spending less time indulging in either wallowing in their content or trying to aggressively power through the DN stage, both of which conveniently avoid the basic lessons of equanimity and emptiness and letting go that the DN so generously offers us.

RE: Why the Dark Night Sucks and Why You're Stuck in it.
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4/3/14 11:10 AM as a reply to dat Buddha-field.
can you stop physical pain? if yes can you stop all physical pain?

I have some successes and I can stop some mild pain and reduce bigger one and when big eg. headache hits I suffer less than I previously (without practice) would . Still I am not really convinced stopping all pain and suffering is possible because its part of conditioned reality we are in. Many folks here at DhO think that way too including overlord emoticon