Elimination of Emotions [T DC]
T DC - 2014-04-30 09:11:38 - Elimination of Emotions
HaHA! Turns out you AF F---er's were right! My afflictive emotions are done!!
Aim high eh, well how about that..
Now here's this:
I don't care if you do want to eliminate your emotions, you're going to have to destroy your ego illusion first. You think you're so special you don't have to follow the stages? Bullshit!
If you think centuries of practitioners have been laying out a path to enlightenment, but you can just do your own thing; you're going to have a bad time.
There is a path, you must follow it, if you fail to, you fail!
Cheers!
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sawfoot _ - 2014-04-30 09:49:35 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
What's your opinion on the whole AF thing TDC?
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Pawe? K - 2014-04-30 10:39:49 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
ok, but what that does mean for us mere mortals?
please, enlighten us!
and could you also give us your two cents on the whole AF thing?
ps. I am gonna go my own path. Will I end in hell or what?
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Nikolai . - 2014-04-30 10:54:18 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Mark Twain:
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark would so have been a great addition to the pragmatic dharma thingie.
Oh, and do you have an opinion on eliminating emotions TDC? I'd love to hear about it.
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Curt Welling - 2014-04-30 10:59:28 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Is spite not an afflictive emotion?
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Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii - 2014-04-30 13:02:41 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Here in the London the sun is blazing and I have been dancing all morning and am in a good happy (afflictive) mood.
This thread is awesome.
TDC I believe you may have done it but you are kind of like the
Pandora Cassandra of the DhO - you prophecy the future of the dharma here, but your curse is that no-one will ever believe you. I await the storm of generally dismissive posts.
I would love to hear about it.
Do you mean the afflictive emotions totally (e.g. no sensations), or the subjective qualities of the emotions (physical sensations which previously were thought of to do with emotions arise, but there is absolutely no subjective quality to them whatsoever)?
Sawfoot I confess I have not been a general fan of your inputs here but this post as silly as it is made me laugh at loud really hard so thanks for that.
sawfoot _:
What's your opinion on the whole AF thing TDC?
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Daniel M. Ingram - 2014-04-30 16:21:44 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Other questions for T DC to help explain what you mean:
Do you mean that nobody observing you would think you had emotions? (as in Tarin, Trent and Jill during their "Zombie" phase)
Do you mean that emotions occur but there is no identification with them? (as in some further development in non-dual awareness)
Do you mean that emotions occur but there is no awareness of them by you? (as in Gary Weber)
Do you mean that no emotions occur and there is no internal manifestation or external manifestation? (as in Jill, Trent and Tarin in their "Zombie" phase)
Does this apply to all emotions entirely in all circumstances or just negative emotions?
Does this apply to dreams? (Can you still dream?)
Can you still visualize things?
Does this apply to things like physiological responses to adverse circumstances, such as a near miss car accident not causing elevated heart rate?
Does this apply to all responses to pain? Specifically: is there now any problem with pain at all? More to the point, would you smilingly go into, say, abdominal surgery or a major dental procedure without pain control or anesthesia with a smile (or no smile, if you are free of emotions) on your face?
Is there still a startle response?
Would you flinch to sudden, unexpected pain?
Might any adverse circumstance make you sweat?
Is there still the ability to get physically sexually aroused, and, if so, what does it take (I know some who for a period of time claimed that only physical contact (rather than say, visuals) could cause physical sexual arousal)?
Is orgasm still possible? If possible, anything different about it? (some at points claimed that the elimination of feelings made is so that that it could occur but provided no pleasure at all and was actually slightly painful).
By "Afflictive Emotions", do you mean all emotions, including happiness, excitement, etc., or just the "bad ones", such as fear, sadness, jealousy, lust, greed, hatred, disgust, etc.
AF specifically eliminates all emotions without exception, not just afflictive ones, if I read them properly, but give the impression, at least in written communications, of having emotions. You give me the impression of having emotions in your post, but then that is clearly not AF criteria, as Richard also gives the impression of emotions in his posts but apparently that doesn't imply actual emotions by the standard AF criteria, just the appearance, so they say.
Thanks. In case you misread my tone, I mean these as serious, straightforward, phenomenological questions, and not as anything more than that. If you remember the history of this place, I was one of the ones willing to entertain the notion that friends of mine might have done it, and they had the kindness to answer basic questions such as these. Perhaps you will do the same.
Daniel
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T DC - 2014-04-30 19:38:10 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
So to give some more explanation:
Sadalsuud BA: Yes so it's the latter; not that sensations have been eliminated, but that the subjective aspect of emotions is gone. What's gone most obviously is the mental emotional dialogue.
Daniel these are some good clarifying questions. I will try to answer them thoroughly, forgive me if I repeat myself.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Other questions for T DC to help explain what you mean:
By "Afflictive Emotions", do you mean all emotions, including happiness, excitement, etc., or just the "bad ones", such as fear, sadness, jealousy, lust, greed, hatred, disgust, etc.
AF specifically eliminates all emotions without exception, not just afflictive ones, if I read them properly, but give the impression, at least in written communications, of having emotions. You give me the impression of having emotions in your post, but then that is clearly not AF criteria, as Richard also gives the impression of emotions in his posts but apparently that doesn't imply actual emotions by the standard AF criteria, just the appearance, so they say.
Do you mean that no emotions occur and there is no internal manifestation or external manifestation? (as in Jill, Trent and Tarin in their "Zombie" phase)
Does this apply to all emotions entirely in all circumstances or just negative emotions?
So to be clear, it seems what I am experiencing is not exactly in line with AF. Perhaps for the better! Essentially, I am not a zombie. The negative emotions such as jealousy, depression, sadness, hatred are gone. The biggest factor in my state of being is an overriding sense of happiness; strong fearless upbeatness. Fear of negative consequences, of future events is gone, evaporated. There is a strong sense of will, of never giving up in the face of adversity, but also being able to embrace the totality of experience in a rational sense.
It's like negative parts of emotions are gone, and those part that do remain pass from my mind effortlessly, and cause no suffering. For example, if a situation I was opposed to occurred, anger might well result, but it would be anger free from any self-reflective doubt, or insecurity. It would be direct anger I could act on rationally and fearlessly. Hatred is gone, hatred of people who I past perceived to have wronged me. Now I simply dismiss ill-will, it is replaced by strong will to acomplish what need be done in any circumstance.
So by no means am I a zombie. I do not have flat, or blank affect. I have great energy in my expression, great positive energy. It is as though the negative, side of emotions has been stripped away. The negative side of emotions such as sadness, or anger is that they cause you to direct energy into yourself, in an inner struggle, thus they are aflictive, they cause suffering to those who feel them. Everything I feel is directed outward, there is no struggle, only energetic expression. There is no self doubt, there is complete confidence, but this is realistic to the circumstance (I do not think I can lift any weight, but I have no problem or self doubt in fighting for my personal objective).
I should perhaps say that in the absence of self doubt and fear, I can fully acknowledge others without fear, I can fell the world fully without turning away whatsoever. I am totally strong in my individuality, but also inherently respectful of the individuality of others.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Do you mean that emotions occur but there is no identification with them? (as in some further development in non-dual awareness)
This is a great question, and opportunity for good distinction. As I had said earlier, at some point post enlightenment, the stream of thoughts in my mind stopped. This last experience was similar in that the stream of emotions itself stopped. So it was not a further development of non-dual awareness, I do consider full (non-dual) enlightenment to have happened previously. Instead it was the end of the 'emotion stream', of the beliefs locking me into emotional experience.
Perhaps I should add, throughout this post I mention end of fear. My real issue or challenge in life emotionally has been lack of self-confidence, fear... So when this aspect was stripped away, I suddenly felt like I could relate with people on a 'whole' level, there wasn't the underlying fear they were better, or more than me, or would hurt me.. Also as I said above, this was not a non-dual attainment, but more of the ending of a chain of belief.
(Perhaps you will find this interesting: I have seen a qi gong energy healer for 4 years or so, she always emphasizes after treatment that the main issue I struggle with is feeling small, or not enough. Recently (as I got more enlightened) she noted these issue were declining. I got a treatment several weeks ago (post the end of thought shift) and she said the issue was very small, but there was still a little there. To be honest I just thought she was in error (after all I'm fully enlightened!..), but now it seems the issue is truly overcome.)
Daniel M. Ingram:
Do you mean that emotions occur but there is no awareness of them by you? (as in Gary Weber)
Do you mean that nobody observing you would think you had emotions? (as in Tarin, Trent and Jill during their "Zombie" phase)
As above, emotions have ceased. It is thus that there is not awareness of them.
I think an observer would just think I was generally a pretty happy, energetic person. I don't no if they would notice anything too unusual in terms of emotions. I still feel compassion for others quite strongly, so it's not as though I cannot relate to the spectrum of human experience.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Does this apply to things like physiological responses to adverse circumstances, such as a near miss car accident not causing elevated heart rate? Is there still a startle response? Might any adverse circumstance make you sweat?
Would you flinch to sudden, unexpected pain?
Does this apply to all responses to pain? Specifically: is there now any problem with pain at all? More to the point, would you smilingly go into, say, abdominal surgery or a major dental procedure without pain control or anesthesia with a smile (or no smile, if you are free of emotions) on your face?
Is there still the ability to get physically sexually aroused, and, if so, what does it take (I know some who for a period of time claimed that only physical contact (rather than say, visuals) could cause physical sexual arousal)?
Is orgasm still possible? If possible, anything different about it? (some at points claimed that the elimination of feelings made is so that that it could occur but provided no pleasure at all and was actually slightly painful).
Yes there are still physiological responses, probably would still flinch, and experience a rush/elevated heart rate in life endangering situations.. Elevated heart rate, interesting to note, as I sit here life is exciting, and there seems to be some elevated heart rate associated with that. Really life is very exciting and interesting. Extreme sports have always had a huge appeal to me. I would compare my current moment by moment experience to skiing, extremely well, a dangerous and rewarding line in ideal conditions. The happiness, or level of reward/ intensity of engagement with my circumstance is like the best, or maximum feeling such a experience skiing would produce.
Physical arousal does not seem to be dampened, actually it is like those emotional affectations which might dampen arousal have been removed. I do assume orgasm is still possible and fun

Daniel M. Ingram:
Does this apply to dreams? (Can you still dream?)
Can you still visualize things?
Dreaming! interesting note, I had this realization last night around 11:30 as I was falling asleep in bed. I then could not fall asleep. I was until 4, when I decided to go for a walk outside. Then I went to be around 5. So overall I got very little sleep last night, perhaps 4 hours, but I feel energetic. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.. I did not really dream last night that I remember, but given the circumstances I'm not going to draw any conclusions. That too will be interesting, though I suspect the capacity is still there.
Visualization, still possible, not weakened really. Definitely my capacity to visualize is not gone.
Cheers, thanks for the questions!
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. Jake . - 2014-04-30 20:11:07 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Please keep us posted on how this unfolds.
A couple questions:
1) What makes you think such a phenomenon, with such little history, is a permanent shift?
2) Were there practices or attitudes or inquiries that you were doing that you think in retrospect produced this result? Or do you see it as a natural consequence of earlier realizations?
Some of what you are describing sounds A&P esque; or even a little manic. Are you sure there is nothing like that going on? If so, how? I mean, who am I to say.. just wondering if you have considered these possibilities?
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Felipe C. - 2014-04-30 21:16:44 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
TDC: The negative emotions such as jealousy, depression, sadness, hatred are gone.
[...]
It's like negative parts of emotions are gone, and those part that do remain pass from my mind effortlessly, and cause no suffering. For example, if a situation I was opposed to occurred, anger might well result, but it would be anger free from any self-reflective doubt, or insecurity. It would be direct anger I could act on rationally and fearlessly. Hatred is gone, hatred of people who I past perceived to have wronged me. Now I simply dismiss ill-will, it is replaced by strong will to acomplish what need be done in any circumstance.
So... not gone really.
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Daniel M. Ingram - 2014-04-30 21:17:08 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
I was thinking a&p also, or equanimity, as they share similar features, but it is hard to diagnose people sometimes, and I don't personally know T DC
I have had countless openings that were totally awesome moodwise: none lasted
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T DC - 2014-05-01 00:58:59 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
. Jake .:
Please keep us posted on how this unfolds.
A couple questions:
1) What makes you think such a phenomenon, with such little history, is a permanent shift?
2) Were there practices or attitudes or inquiries that you were doing that you think in retrospect produced this result? Or do you see it as a natural consequence of earlier realizations?
Some of what you are describing sounds A&P esque; or even a little manic. Are you sure there is nothing like that going on? If so, how? I mean, who am I to say.. just wondering if you have considered these possibilities?
Indeed, it has yet to be seen what happens next. It does seem a little manic, but you know hard to say.
1) The reason I think it was a permanent shift was that it occurred in the same way the end of thoughts occurred. And I feel noticeably changed. It is definitely early, and I will see what happens and report back.
2) Yes basically I see it as the consequence of earlier realizations. Non-duality allowed for the end of thoughts, which in turn allowed for the end of emotions.. I haven't been practicing per say, moment to moment, my mental life has been somewhat occupied with making progress through beliefs.
Ya thanks for the post, always good to take an objective look at things. I guess I will just see what happens!

So far it seems to be holding up pretty well, though I am feeling the consequences of not sleeping.
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sawfoot _ - 2014-05-01 09:22:43 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii:
Here in the London the sun is blazing and I have been dancing all morning and am in a good happy (afflictive) mood.
This thread is awesome.
Sawfoot I confess I have not been a general fan of your inputs here but this post as silly as it is made me laugh at loud really hard so thanks for that.
sawfoot _:
What's your opinion on the whole AF thing TDC?
So kind of you to say so!
So in general, you aren't a fan? If you had to be specific, could you put a percentage on how many of my 359 posts you aren't a fan of? How about this one, specifically?
Thanks for sharing!
Peace and love
Sawfoot (in the pouring rain)
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Nikolai . - 2014-05-01 10:00:59 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
sawfoot _:
Sadalsuud Beta Aquarii:
Here in the London the sun is blazing and I have been dancing all morning and am in a good happy (afflictive) mood.
This thread is awesome.
Sawfoot I confess I have not been a general fan of your inputs here but this post as silly as it is made me laugh at loud really hard so thanks for that.
sawfoot _:
What's your opinion on the whole AF thing TDC?
So kind of you to say so!
So in general, you aren't a fan? If you had to be specific, could you put a percentage on how many of my 359 posts you aren't a fan of? How about this one, specifically?
Thanks for sharing!
Peace and love
Sawfoot (in the pouring rain)
Correction-> 361
"Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?" Walt Witman
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Eric M W - 2014-05-01 12:18:57 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
I... uh... nah, I'm going to stay out of this one.
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Pawe? K - 2014-05-01 20:53:29 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
such a long post and you still haven't said a word HOW you did it...
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-05-01 20:53:44 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Nikolai .:
Actually I think it's 360.
Nikolai .:
"Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?" Walt Witman
"I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS!" -
Walter White-------------------
Nikolai . - 2014-05-01 21:22:57 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Nikolai .:
Actually I think it's 360.
Nikolai .:
"Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?" Walt Witman
"I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS!" -
Walter WhiteAs soon as he posts again, I am right!
:0
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sawfoot _ - 2014-05-01 22:04:18 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
I better not post again lest you be right
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sawfoot _ - 2014-05-01 22:06:41 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Doh!
Oh, but 362!
By the way, I heard a nice quote the other day and I think it is really opportune to mention it here. It goes a little something like this:
ìPeople who like quotes love meaningless generalizationsî
? Graham Greene
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Psi Phi - 2014-05-02 00:23:53 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
sawfoot _:
Doh!
Oh, but 362!
By the way, I heard a nice quote the other day and I think it is really opportune to mention it here. It goes a little something like this:
ìPeople who like quotes love meaningless generalizationsî
? Graham Greene
ìIn quoting others, we cite ourselves.î ? Julio Cort·zar, Around the Day in Eighty Worlds
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Eric M W - 2014-05-02 00:37:59 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Hey everyone! I've decided to contribute to this thread.
I'm really pissed off right now. Not about any of this stuff, but about a situation at work. I was written up for something that I didn't do, and I basically feel like a victim of managerial incompetence. To be more specific, I was written up for something that effectively bars me from further employment in this field if I ever apply to another company. And as a guy with three kids and one on the way, and only one job, I'm
pissed. Even now, hours later, I am trembling with rage.
And you know what? That's fine. Being a human means feeling the whole spectrum of emotions. Joy and sorrow, elation and grief, hope and despair. The flickering dance of emptiness continues, just as it always has and always will.
Would I like to not be angry? Sure, that would be much nicer. But fundamental suffering is not caused my emotions, it's caused by thinking that there is a self to which these emotions are happening.
So, what do I do? I ruminate in my anger a little bit, thanks to my pre-path brain, I'm sure. But then, I sit. I try to quiet my mind a little. I envision the members of the management team that decided to make an example of me. And I send metta. "May so-and-so be happy, may they be well, may they be safe, may they be free of all forms of suffering." And you know what? I feel a little bit better, a little more at ease, a little less spiteful. I feel a little more understanding of why they did what they did, as unfair as it was. I'm sure with more practice these emotions will vanish altogether, not because they are gone, but because they are healed.
There are many ways to skillfully work with our emotions. The brahma viharas are great. I also hear there's this new thing called psychotherapy that helps us explore and heal even our deepest wounds. Along those same lines, there are some interesting "deep therapies" such as breathwork and re-birthing that can, apparently, heal racial and karmic wounds, though I've never really tried them.
I've been in states where I didn't seem to have anything emotional going on. I experimented with codeine when I was a teenager and quite enjoyed the dumb, hazy bliss that enveloped me. I also was prescribed Xanax for some anxiety problems a few years back, and the affective part of my brain seemed to have been temporarily shut down. Both these experiences were nice in their own ways, and in fact it was a pain in the ass when the effects wore off, because those pesky emotions were back.
But, would I want to have my emotions turned off forever? Would I want to look at my children and not feel the deep love that I always feel? Would I not want to learn, change, and grow from the many ups and downs of this strange human drama?
Fuck that, ladies and gentlemen. I cherish my humanity.
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James Yen - 2014-05-02 01:10:28 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
I think it's important to elucidate the notion that skillful emotions increase while unskillful emotions decrease, at least that is the idea. But the emotion thing is difficult to tackle.
After you get rid of your emotions what's left? It's like scrubbing a dirty bowl, are you ever sure it's clean? No.
The idea is that you'll never stop scrubbing, which is why I don't particularly like the view that one is supposed to eliminate his emotions.
It's like, trying to smash something out, someone who feels that emotions are the cause of suffering, probably identifies them as atta, and then concludes that the ending of atta is the ending of suffering (a la Richard). But this is not how it works in practice, in practice one identifies form, feeling, perception, formations and cognition and regards them as not me, not mine, they are foreign.
And then they are let go of.
The problem is always ignorance, of what actually causes suffering. I suppose.
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Jinxed P - 2014-05-02 02:16:38 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
I suddenly felt like I could relate with people on a 'whole' level, there wasn't the underlying fear they were better, or more than me, or would hurt me.
If you have no thoughts, how can you think someone is 'better' than you? If you had no thoughts, how could you have low self confidence..since low self confidence stems from a belief system ( i.e a bundle of thoughts)....
TDC,
You claim no thoughts, full enlightenment and now no negative emotions (or really you do experience negative emotions but you take it in stride), but nothing of what you say and do corresponds to any of this. My diagnosis, and I'm not saying this to offend you..is..
mild bi-polar with grandiose delusions..
I suddenly felt like I could relate with people on a 'whole' level, there wasn't the underlying fear they were better, or more than me, or would hurt me
It is not normal to feel like that when talking to people. This speaks of anxiety and depression, symptoms of a bi-polar down period.
as I sit here life is exciting
,
Excitement is an emotion.
I had this realization last night around 11:30 as I was falling asleep in bed. I then could not fall asleep. I was until 4, when I decided to go for a walk outside. Then I went to be around 5. So overall I got very little sleep last night, perhaps 4 hours, but I feel energetic.
Bi-polar mania.
The biggest factor in my state of being is an overriding sense of happiness; strong fearless upbeatness. Fear of negative consequences, of future events is gone, evaporated. There is a strong sense of will, of never giving up in the face of adversity, but also being able to embrace the totality of experience in a rational sense.
Classic description of mania.
I got a treatment several weeks ago (post the end of thought shift) and she said the issue was very small, but there was still a little there. To be honest I just thought she was in error (after all I'm fully enlightened!..
Grandiose delusions
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-02 03:15:24 - RE: Elimination of Emotions
Having an aversion to emotions is just more aversion. Just resting in consciousness and watching the emotions do their thing and relax will do more than repression. The awareness just watches impassively and with no judgement.
I hope you get back on your feet and find some other situation. Politics at work is really hard. The pressure is to be part of a dominate group to avoid being targeted. This is so predictable and if anyone thinks they're safe when they are with other mammals they should think again. It's dangerous in groups.
I'm sorry for your lost job. The problem with attachments is that when you have a family and work you'll be attached to the outcomes you want for them and yourself. I don't think it can be avoided. Having emotions with those losses isn't bad. As in cognitive therapy sadness is healthy, but depression is not.
Metta