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Fruition and stream entry?

Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
5/31/14 12:44 PM
Yesterday I tried, like every other day to keep noticing every sensation, etc. Unlike the other days, this time I was succeeding all the time.
Sounds became "bassier" and louder. Panoramic vision was a lot wider.
There was a lot of space, like I could accomodate thoughts, vision, sound and feelings in a room that suddenly was bigger.
I could see that I was not my thoughts or body (which I couldn't do earlier, at least not with that certainty).
I could accomodate thoughts and, if I didn't like them make them pass.

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).
But this time, attention went to the middle of the head.
I began to feel like someone was pouring water through the front of the head (between the eyes), going backwards to the back of the head. It felt really good.
At some point, attention went to breathing (I really dont know if voluntarily or not) , and I returned (I guess I didnt complete the process?).
Afterwards, pressure in the back of the head. Subtle but constant for some hours.

Anyway, the changes from yesterday remain today, in everything I do.
They are really cool and they help in my daily life in.....everything.

I've been to EQ before and this is different. There is no bliss. Just more room and control of sensations.
EQ feels good but forced, in fact, I could detect suffering in EQ.

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
5/31/14 1:08 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Yesterday I tried, like every other day to keep noticing every sensation, etc. Unlike the other days, this time I was succeeding all the time.
Sounds became "bassier" and louder. Panoramic vision was a lot wider.
There was a lot of space, like I could accomodate thoughts, vision, sound and feelings in a room that suddenly was bigger.
I could see that I was not my thoughts or body (which I couldn't do earlier, at least not with that certainty).
I could accomodate thoughts and, if I didn't like them make them pass.

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).
But this time, attention went to the middle of the head.
I began to feel like someone was pouring water through the front of the head (between the eyes), going backwards to the back of the head. It felt really good.
At some point, attention went to breathing (I really dont know if voluntarily or not) , and I returned (I guess I didnt complete the process?).
Afterwards, pressure in the back of the head. Subtle but constant for some hours.

Anyway, the changes from yesterday remain today, in everything I do.
They are really cool and they help in my daily life in.....everything.

I've been to EQ before and this is different. There is no bliss. Just more room and control of sensations.
EQ feels good but forced, in fact, I could detect suffering in EQ.

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

If there was no blip or loss of consciousness, it wasn't a fruition and you didn't attain stream entry.

It's possibly high Eq, or an A&P event. I think people often forget that until you hit stream entry, A&P comes after Eq, so you're cycling A&P -> DN -> Eq -> A&P.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 8:36 AM as a reply to J C.
Yoday I had it again, looks like kundalini (very weird kundalini).
I'm probably back in AP.
Definitely gaining insight.

Thanks for the response.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 11:04 AM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
“Everything that happens once can never happen again. But everything that happens twice will surely happen a third time.”Paulo Coelho
Just a quote that came to mind.....
If your getting to EQ read this - http://contemplativefitnessbook.com/book-two-theory/the-progress-of-insight-map/#Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11
Good Luck
~D

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/1/14 4:04 PM as a reply to J C.
J C:

The question:
Was that fruition (there was no blip, no loss of conciousness)? Did I attain stream entry?

If there was no blip or loss of consciousness, it wasn't a fruition and you didn't attain stream entry.

It's possibly high Eq, or an A&P event. I think people often forget that until you hit stream entry, A&P comes after Eq, so you're cycling A&P -> DN -> Eq -> A&P.
You know this for sure because...?

I say this because you do hear reports of yogi's who don't get a blip (that they noticed) yet later their teacher or whoever decide they got stream entry (e.g. suddenly they have access to all the jhanas etc...)

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/2/14 8:26 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
Thanks for the info.

For what I can see, I'm in high EQ or very near to stream entry.

I'll try the jhanas and see what happens.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/2/14 7:01 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Actually, what you describe here is incredible similar to what I've been seeing lately. There is pressure in the forehead and the back of the skull (under the ledge area) and I get a very strange bubbling or "trickling" effect at the back of the head.

A few weeks ago one of those trickles caught hold and I lost awareness of everything except a kind of complete stillness...

So, at night, when I meditate, I go to nothingness, like the mind is nowhere (as I usually do).


I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you referring to the 7th jhana (sphere of nothingness) or a kind of choice-less awareness meditation?

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/3/14 7:53 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
The nothingness I think is choice-less awareness. I just let go. It's not 7th jhana although it looks like the higher jhanas. Concentration is strong, but diffused, with no focus.

Unfortunately, I have a huge muscle contracture on the left side (jaw-neck-shoulder), so I use some of the time of my sitting to do some stretches.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/3/14 2:01 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
That's very interesting. I'd say we're in the same boat, whatever that boat might be. Maybe this is equanimity - there's definately been a profound change in my perspective.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/5/14 10:21 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
That's very interesting. I'd say we're in the same boat, whatever that boat might be. Maybe this is equanimity - there's definately been a profound change in my perspective.
If we are in the same boat, then try looking closely at thoughts, specially when you are about to do something. Look to the drive thought, to the doer. Look at the thought that resist doing things. Let it carry on. You´ll find it all resolves without your input!

Hope it helps.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/30/14 1:57 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
6/30/14 5:35 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.
More feedback might be useful for others who experience similar things.
Whats happening now?
~D

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/3/14 8:06 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Ernest Michael Olmos:
Well, time has passed and it certainly wasn't stream entry.
More feedback might be useful for others who experience similar things.
Whats happening now?
~D
Some unity, no self experiencies (like I cannot move or I'm not myself). More flickering, impermanence.
But the most important is drop of effort or attachment to states or goals. More spontaneity.
The recognition of some insights that were unpleasant.

Impermanence is begining to erode structures of thought. Sometimes the mind is melted into the present. The habit of solidifying things is weakening. At the peak of impermanence (strong), no self happens (weak) and some suffering understanding (weak) that produces deep compassion towards everyone in daily life.

Meditation subtly changed my attitudes towards certain things in daily life. I'm trying to organize my daily life to be able to meditate better.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 11:48 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Sleep reduced from 8-9 hours to 6 hours a day (for a week now).
I always slept a lot, so this is really weird.

Not so attached to panoramic vision, unity experiences, etc.
It's like I'm missing something and not only I don't know what it is but also I don't know how to find it.

I've experienced formations (or so I think) for a day long. I'm pretty sure they were formations because of there was no thought for a long time (10 hours), only relations between phenomena. I even had long talks without thinking. Everything seemed.....logical, obvious and determined.

So I think I'm in equanimity.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 6:12 PM as a reply to J C.
I'm really confused by this notion that one falls back to AP from EQ before SE. I was chatting here with someone yesterday who said one falls back to A&P instead of the very beginning only AFTER stream entry. I think that the source of confusion is MCTB itself. I never could get this straight, even during my fifth reading of the book. I guess I need to post this as a separate question; maybe Daniel can clear up what MCTB is saying about this topic.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/8/14 6:38 PM as a reply to _.
Yeah,
wtf

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/9/14 3:54 AM as a reply to _.
Well, some people cross the A&P, hit the Dark Night, get to Equanimity, and get Stream Entry. They are the very lucky ones, as this is extremely unusual.

The vast majority of people who cross the A&P and then subsequently hit the Dark Night won't get to Equanimity in any easily recognizable way the first (or even second or third...) time around, and will then fall back, and later on recross the A&P, hit the Dark Night again, and at some point will get to Equanimity.

The vast majority of those will not get stream entry after attaining Equanimity, but will again fall back and likely recross the A&P again at some point.

Walking up and down this territory again and again is very common before getting stream entry, as the lessons at each stage are subtle, not easily learned, and they must be learned sufficiently for stream entry to arise.

I personally crossed the A&P at least 6 times in daily life before going on retreats, and so had at least 6 Dark Night episodes during that time, wasn't sure I ever crossed to Equanimity during that period, and then on retreat crossed the A&P on my first two retreats and hit the Dark Night again, also without an obvious Equanimity phase, and then crossed the A&P on my third retreat, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, retreat ended, and then I fell back into the Dark Night, and then finally, on my fourth retreat, crossed the A&P, hit the Dark Night, got to Equanimity, and finally landed Stream Entry. This is a very normal sort of general pattern, and I call it the Standard Pattern for this reason. Notice descriptions here of very similar things by many, many practitioners.

Helpful?

Daniel

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/10/14 11:35 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
I agree.

I'll give an impression that I have, consider it as an opinion, nothing more.

There seems to be a "Jhana factor" in the background of every phase.
AP=Jhana 1, DN=Jhana 2-3, EQ=Jhana 4.

I do notice that when I fall into AP, and I get into Jhana 4, that Jhana 4 is different (it has qualities of AP) from the same Jhana 4 when I'm on Equanimity.
When I'm on AP and I get to Jhana 1, that Jhana is very "impressive" and the others are "softer", the same happens when I'm on EQ and I get to Jhana 4.

About progress, I don't have the options of retreats. I have a job, a wife and pets. I have a stiff spine (hours of working with a PC in a bad posture).
So, my progress won't be as "fast" as others.

Two days ago I hit again a very strong AP. I think I'm still in it.

One easy way for me to determin in which phase I am is the sex drive.
AP=Need, DN=Aversion, EQ=No need, no aversion.

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

Also, I would not consider EQ>DN>AP as a mark of progress. I would consider how much insight you got from that stages.
So, for me:
AP (no insight) - DN (no insight) - EQ (some insight) is worse than AP (lots of insight).
In fact, for me at least, insight is the only thing that matters.

An analogy here (not sure a useful one). You can pass an exam without learning or studying too much. In fact you can pass a lots of exams and get a degree without studying too much. The exams are sequential in time, inevitable. What you learn is not.
That said, the amount learned and the things that you learned that made a difference are the things that count in the long term.

Again, just an opinion.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/10/14 9:40 PM as a reply to Ernest Michael Olmos.
There seems to be a "Jhana factor" in the background of every phase.
AP=Jhana 1, DN=Jhana 2-3, EQ=Jhana 4.

Yes, the vipassana jhanas and samatha jhanas are closely related. EQ and jhana 4 occur in the same stratum of mind, using KF's terminology. You can actually slide back and forth between concentration and insight stages with some practice, it's a matter of how much you allow the 3C's to show themselves, if that makes sense. Jhana 1 is actually associated with the pre-vipassana stages due to the whole sustained effort aspect, AP is jhana 2, DN is jhana 3, etc...
About progress, I don't have the options of retreats. I have a job, a wife and pets. I have a stiff spine (hours of working with a PC in a bad posture).
So, my progress won't be as "fast" as others.

I don't have the option of retreats either. I have three kids, one on the way, a wife, and a full-time job. The good news is, I made it all the way to EQ in these circumstances, and I actually didn't even know what the Progress of Insight was. It only took me a couple of months from A&P to EQ. How many hours a day do you watch TV? Are you mindful at work? Do you note throughout the day? Do you practice any kind of sleep or dream yoga or do you just hit the sack and conk out? All these are important considerations. Enlightenment for householders is very possible, check out the book on Dipa Ma for some inspiration.

Some people spend years on retreat and yet fail utterly at insight practice.

I'm not so sure about the lessons thing. If each stage carried lessons, you should stop cycling after SE (all lessons learned).

I can't speak for Daniel, but I think what he meant was, insight has to mature before you can move on to the next insight stage. That's the way it is referred to in more traditional texts, insight maturing. It's difficult to describe how this happens. You just have to "get it." The best way to do this is practice, practice, practice, and a sense of surrendering to the process.\

Cycling is related to the way the mind relates to phenomena, not necessarily to whether you have learned every lesson of the stages.

RE: Fruition and stream entry?
Answer
7/11/14 9:55 AM as a reply to Eric M W.
Thank for the book on Dipa Ma idea. I'll read it.
Good idea about yoga sleep (I'll check that out).

Regarding progress, I've noticed that insight momentum is better that insight dispersed. Daniel said something somewhere about rolling a boulder over a hill. I agree with him.
That's not to say that I haven't been moving forward with my practice and getting results.

About the cycling, I don't know for sure.
There seems to be some energy thing related to them.
Stages are VERY useful to know where you are and keep practicing.
They are also useful in the morality area, so you don't wreck your life. I can't thank Daniel enough for the descriptions of them.

Now, stages as THE mark of insight progress, I'm still not so sure.
They do relate to insight progress (i'm not saying that they don't), but they are not the only markers.
My opinion anyway.