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Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?

Okay, so the last few days I’ve tried the Candle Kasina meditation. I’ve followed the advice given by Nikolai . in this link:
http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2010/12/nicks-current-candle-flame-kasina.html

I was going to experiment with a coloured disc and maybe I will at some stage because I wonder how it would differ and if it would be harder to get an imprint when you close the eyes.

So far, I start by staring at the flame for about 5 minutes. I note intently, usually the colour as in “bright white, bright white” or yellow yellow. Sometimes I note the motion as in “moving, moving” or the shape etc. But usually I prefer to settle on the brightest spot of the flame. I note at a rate of maybe 3x per second. If I do it too slow (Nikolai notes every 5 secs he said) wandering mind has a tendency to take over.

After this initial settling in period I close my eyes and begin to note the impression. It takes maybe 30secs or so usually for the image to consolidate and become clearer. Initially it tends to be a greenish colour, which changes to a pinkish or redish hue. Then it sometimes turns black or very dark. Whilst it is pink or black there is often what I think has been termed a “halo effect” behind the object. Very bright white light which sometimes “threatens” to consume the object completely only for the image to re-emerge from the light. Occasionally, there is a kind of a “super nova” effect when the bright light “overwhelmes" the object and the image is almost gone, down to a full stop size dot, which is fading. Eventually it does disappear altogether. When this happens I sometimes linger a bit wondering if it will come back. The bright lights are sometimes still there a bit. (When it is black/pink/red the image is around the size of a large rice grain). When it is rice grain size there seems to be a spinning disc inside usually redish/pink colour.

When the image eventually fades – this process takes around 5-7 minutes I reckon. I open my eyes to “top up” for about 2 – 3 mins or so. Therefore in 60 mins, I probably open my eyes around  6 or 7 times. Don’t know if this is relevant or typical or what exactly.

Written as a descriptive above, it all sounds more dramatic/impressive than it really is. It’s quite mundane although relatively enjoyable. Of interest to me (and I’ve sat like this about 10 times now for an hour each time) is that I’m not waiting for the alarm to ring alerting me that the time is up. In fact I’ve even gone past the 60 minute mark for a few mins if I’m ingrossed in the image. Even when I’ve been sitting with aches and pains in my back. If I had been noting the rising/falling of the abdomen or anapana at the nostrils or body scanning sensation I would have invariably been hankering for the alarm to ring. And gotten up pretty much straight away once it had.
Also, when the eyes are shut, my concentration seems to be far better than any other object (primarily breath or walking) I’ve used in the past. Far less wandering mind.  And I’m not even on retreat.

Any helpful comments thus far to what I’m doing would be appreciated.

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-16 上午6:24 回复Piers M。
Why am I doing this?

I have started to think about trying to attain first Jhana. And how important this could be. It doesn’t matter to me how long or short this process takes. (Obviously the quicker the better – I was listening to Ayya Khema (from a talk in the 1990s) who mentioned that one of her students in Germany aged 78 had attained first Jhana after trying for 25 years!! And he was then walking round like the cat that got the cream. Hopefully it won’t take me as long as that).

I’m not even sure if it matters whether it is soft or hard (in terms of attaining first path)...... I’ve read many differing opinions on this forum about what does/doesn’t constitute Jhana, and whether you even need concentration (for first path at least). See here a little booklet by Bhikkhu Bodhi entitltled “The Jhanas & The Lay Disciple according to the Pali Suttas” which you can read online here.

I’m also confused about when some of the nanas are matched to Jhanas  (When I say Jhana I’m talking about Samatha Jhanas. Are some of the nanas so called Vipassana Jhanas?) Further, I read/heard  some people saying you need to come out of Jhana to then practice insight. Ajhan Brahm I know has said this. Because he says the mind has calmed down sufficiently and the hindrances are suppressed enough for clear insight to arise. He reckons if you’ve really attained jhana, that for some people this “washover period” – my term – will last a few hours and  for others it can even be several days.

[ sorry I cannot give you all the sources – I really ought to use a notebook when I read/hear these things to jot down the detail of who said it/when or the book etc].

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-16 上午6:28 回复Piers M。
Incidentally, Daniel suggests trying this for 10-15 hours for a couple of days to see the results. This would be difficult for me at home.

Unless I can find a place to self retreat, I am wondering where you can practice these kinds of Kasina meditations in a retreat environment. I’ve heard that they do it in Pa Auk in Burma but you need to have mastered the 4 Jhanas first through ananpansati (which begs the question for me, if you’ve mastered the first 4 Jhanas with breathwork, why would you then need to use an object such as a candle or a disk? For what purpose?)

Any suggestions for Kasina retreats?

Thanks Piers.

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 上午5:07 回复Piers M。
Try a hotel, or, if you have conducive weather, a national park or similarly cheap area.

When I learned this I was in a very small wooden cabin out at Bhavana Society in the dead of winter in West Virginia with a cantankerous wood stove for heat and no power.

It doesn't really take anything but the candle (I actually typically use an oil lamp for this, as you can go longer), freedom from distractions, time and work. Setting can be really simple. Just need a relatively clean and undistracting background. There really is no substitue for the momentum you get from a few days of doing this basically all day long.

Other recommendations:

use no clock
sit in a very comfortable sitting situation if possible to maximize the time you can keep at it and remove pain as a distraction
when you have to get up as your legs/eyes/back can't take it anymore, walk while trying to visualize or at least visually detail exactly what you see while you are walking
as soon as you can go back to sitting, do so
really pay attention to the colors above all else and whatever is happening in the visual field regardless of what it is
mantras can add more umpf, so play with one of those: a very simple one that can naturally ring on in the background without requiring much thought about it, one that sounds good to you and you like and means something good and powerful to you

Daniel

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 上午7:24 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
I hope the owner of the thread doesn't mind me asking in here but I have a problem with candle meditation. Watering eyes. How do you deal with those? How far should candle flame be? If it's to far it's after image is small, to close it's to bright. Tips?

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 上午9:28 回复ftw。

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 下午3:25 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Thanks Daniel. Hotels - too expensive but it's a good idea and gives me the thought about renting a caravan in a caravan park. If it's out of season and not school holidays (ie when noisy families might be around) it could well be ideal.
I can only imagine that momentum is key.

Thanks for the other pointers. Tell me, the bright white lights I get whilst seeing the Kasina image and when the image fades. Should I pay any attention to it or not? I've had bright white lights (and to a lesser extent a few varients, example: kinda tourquoise colours but not for long) whilst doing Mahasi style noting of rising and falling abdomen but have always been told by various teachers not to give it any importance. Just basically ignore (or note "seeing seeing" briefly before returning to primary object).

The lights I see now are very similar if not the same. Are they the same phenomena?

Thanks again. Piers

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 下午3:32 回复ftw。
ftw:
I hope the owner of the thread doesn't mind me asking in here but I have a problem with candle meditation. Watering eyes. How do you deal with those? How far should candle flame be? If it's to far it's after image is small, to close it's to bright. Tips?

Erm, I don't really get that problem of watering eyes (even when it seems very bright at times which I quite like), so sorry can't give you any tips. You are right, too far and the image is rather small. Also, I usually wear glasses but don't like to when sitting (no point) so I need the image fairly close to my face anyhow (if I stretch out my arm in front of me the candle flame is roughly at my wrist). That seems about the right distance for me.
As the other link suggests perhaps switching to a coloured disc might be the solution.
Just a further thought. I do blink. Do you blink? If you don't that might be the cause of watering eyes.
Piers

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-17 下午4:22 回复ftw。
I find that about 4-6 feet (~1.2-1.7 meters) away is good and positioned so that the flame is probably at approximately the height of your upper abdomen to lower chest, such that eyes are angled down gently.

It is really important to learn not to strain the eyes and not to confuse tensing eye and facial muscles for the act of bringing more concentration and effort to the practice, something that initially can take some sorting out. More practice with attention to this typically sorts this out in a few minutes or hours.

Just let the eyes rest easily on it, noticing that flames are naturally enchanting, easy to just stare at, and that it requires no strain to see them, as they are bright already. You need not stare at the flame for very long, maybe a minute or two, and then close the eyes and see the afterimages and go from there. Again, even with the eyes closed, there is still this habit of straining eye muscles as a false proxy for turning attention to internally generated images: try to gently relax and not do this, which may take some steady practice until it is natural.

Daniel

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-21 下午3:59 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Daniel,

When you say:
when you have to get up as your legs/eyes/back can't take it anymore, walk while trying to visualize or at least visually detail exactly what you see while you are walking

Do you mean visualize the object (in this case the candle flame) as you see it with eyes open or the imprint image when the eyes are shut? Or the second highlighted sentance "visually detail exactly what you see while walking". What does this mean? The eyes are open. You see objects in the room or outside such as a chair or trees...... Could you elborate a bit please?
mantras can add more umpf,

I am just considering how to factor in a mantra at the same time as trying to intently note the objects colours/characteristics..... it seems mutually exclusive.....to have two thought processes going on at the same time......I know I need to try it first really but it is something that comes to mind as I think about gearing up for a self retreat (hopefully) in a few weeks time.

Thanks, Piers

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-22 上午1:27 回复Piers M。
By visualize, I mean see the images you have been working with while walking around. This takes strong concentration and not many can do it without a seriously large amount of momentum if at all.

By visually detail, I mean very careful and interested attention to exactly what you are seeing as you walk around, particularly noticing things like perspective shifting as you walk around, how three-dimensionality is created as you walk around, subtleties of lighting, and the like.

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-22 上午10:53 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Daniel M. Ingram:
By visually detail, I mean very careful and interested attention to exactly what you are seeing as you walk around, particularly noticing things like perspective shifting as you walk around, how three-dimensionality is created as you walk around, subtleties of lighting, and the like.

I just started to notice Parallax last weekend doing concentration exercises, mostly walking. Things got very extra 3D.


RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-23 下午5:40 回复Dream Walker。
Unfortunately, I cannot see in true 3D, because I lack stereoscopic vision (eye surgery when a baby). I have to infer depth perception by seeing that things that are far away are smaller than things near. This is why I suck at sports.

I also tried this candle flame meditation a few times over the past week. I did it for only about 45 minutes each time because it was before bed on a work night. I guess I wish I had more detailed instructions and understood the purpose of doing concentation this particular way (kasina).

It does help to be mindful not to tense up the face and brow; otherwise, it can be unpleasant to keep watching a jittery flame. Although I tend to enjoy looking into a bon fire, so go figure.

When I closed my eyes, I always would see a purple or cobalt blue disk. It grows in size for a short while and then fades away. Nothing spectacular, and I have a tendency to want to keep eyes closed and just go on into Boundless Space, etc. I am slightly concerned that this kind of meditation could be migraine-inducing if continued for many hours, but maybe it wouldn't. I think it would be difficult, though. Maybe one has to work up to it.

Again, is there a special purpose to this kind of meditation object?

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-23 下午5:46 回复Daniel M. Ingram。
Daniel:
By visualize, I mean see the images you have been working with while walking around. This takes strong concentration and not many can do it without a seriously large amount of momentum if at all.
So by "visualize" you mean actually see, see it in front of one--not merely imagine it, correct?

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-25 上午1:43 回复Piers M。
Hi, Piers,

I'm doing these meditations now as a little experiment because I am trying to strengthen concentration and explore jhanas. I'm usually heavily into whole-body breath meditation vis-a-vis Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I am not really a "noter," more just a noticer. I need to come back and read Nick's thread you linked to (when it isn't way past bedtime).
Written as a descriptive above, it all sounds more dramatic/impressive than it really is. It’s quite mundane although relatively enjoyable. Of interest to me (and I’ve sat like this about 10 times now for an hour each time) is that I’m not waiting for the alarm to ring alerting me that the time is up. In fact I’ve even gone past the 60 minute mark for a few mins if I’m ingrossed in the image. 

This rings true for me, too. I just sat for an hour but it felt more like just 20 minutes, and I felt like I could keep going--only I needed to go to sleep for work in the morning. All my aches disappeared, and toward the end, my sense of body was gone--even with my eyes open!

Since I don't yet know the special purpose or good technique for this meditation object, I'm kind of winging it until I can do more reading. But I tried adding a mantra tonight (om mani padme hum, because that was the only one I could remember, back from my Tibetan Buddhism days), and that seemed to make everything more intense somehow, more Moiré patterned. When I close my eyes I see a bright purple disk. Tonight it started showing a greenish-golden border. I'm wondering if it is best to focus on one aspect of the flame, such as the light, or the whole thing. The color of flame is a bit hard for me to discern unless I close my eyes slightly, and then it looks very pale orange, almost white.

Maybe on the weekend I can spend a longer stretch of time doing this meditation. It certainly goes by fast. Also, the afterglow tonight feels really endorphic, but maybe that is because I slipped into one of those formless realm things toward the end. I'll check back and see how yours is going.

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-25 上午1:51 回复Raazik Gatrad。
Raazik--very helpful "attachment" emoticon. Thanks!

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-25 上午7:56 回复_。
Jenny:



Since I don't yet know the special purpose or good technique for this meditation object, I'm kind of winging it until I can do more reading. 


The purpose, as I see it, is to calm, direct and sustain the incessant flow of thought. Though these days, I would lean more to advising the practice of the Buddha's more body-orientated anapanasutta instructions. The idea, as I see it though, is to learn how to direct thought till it is sustained thought. This may then allow pleasure and joy to establish. Thems there are the 1st jhana factors in place. Then it is a matter of letting go of the grosser aspects/factors of the jhana to experience the next one up and so on. 

A short Experiment:

Stare at a visual object in front of you. Don't do anything else. Just stare at it for a minute.
VERSUS
Stare at the same visual object in front of you but at the same time contemplate the 'shape' or the 'colour' or the 'perception' of it as a 'thing', or some other quality being mentally assigned to it. 

Which way seems to direct the flow of thought more so?

The candle kasina instructions in the linked article use the latter method. One contemplates a quality of the flame along with staring at it. The contempalting aspect is actively moving the flow of thought in a direction away from the usual objects of the 5 hindrances. And as I see it, so do the anapanasutta instructions. The Buddha asks one to contemplate secondary objects along with the incoming and outgoing breath.

One is actively directing the energy of thought in a particular direction, eventually leading to sustained thought. With the tempering of the 5 hindrances, pleasure can get established. Joy leaps from the pleasure. If this is fullbodied as the anapanasutta instructions set one up for, all the better to let go of at 4th jhana to experience the mental realms and/or cessation.

Nick's cent.

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-9-25 上午9:57 回复ftw。
Hey, first off , Candle meditation is awesome! Trataka 

Trataka  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C4%81%E1%B9%ADaka


But:  Be safe, and healthy some candle smoke contains toxins, use soy or beeswax


http://www.theredheadriter.com/2012/03/the-truth-about-paraffin-wax-candles-are-they-toxic/

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-10-2 上午12:53 回复Nikolai .。
NIck,

Thanks for the explanations. I've always done breath meditation--whole body breathing that involves really a type of body scanning--via Thanissaro Bhikkhus. My sits have become confusing, so I've thought it a good time to experiment with new objects

I had a pretty wild experience with the candle last night. I don't want to highjack this thread, though. So here is the link to my journal, and the date would be October 1, if anyone is interested in commenting on what happened.

EDITED to see if I can make the link work this time: 

Jenny

RE: Just Started Kasina practice - How am I doing?
答复
14-10-3 上午6:12 回复Piers M。
re Piers M (9/16/14 6:15 AM )
"Okay, so the last few days I’ve tried the Candle Kasina meditation. I’ve followed the advice given by Nikolai . in this link: …"

Where does this conception of 'kasina' meditation come from (in the link from "The Yogi Toolbox," and as apparently commonly agreed upon in this forum)? No sources, written or oral are mentioned there. I ask on the chance that there is, in fact, some tradition that uses 'kasina' in this sense, as a sort of vipassana practice (noting changing stuff), and using "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi), which is similar to access-concentration and s/t taught in the context of vipassana meditation.

And I'm curious because this is different from the kasina practices in the Theravada Pali Canon (both the Suttas and the commentaries):

First, there were traditionally 10 kasina objects – the 4 Great Elements (earth, water, fire, air/wind); 4 colors (blue,  yellow,  red and white); plus space and light (or s/t consciousness).

Second, each was considered a pure phenomenon, i.e. only earth,… only blue,…; that is, as exclusive, one-pointed object, to the exclusion ("seclusion", s/t considered suppression of all other objects), i.e. as an object for absorptive concentration (jhana).

Third, the respective object (or rather the mind's corresponding nimitta) is cultivated to fill consciousness, and then to be 'extended' beyond all boundaries, all limits, to become an 'immeasurable' experience. The term is kasina-ayatanaayatana as in the term for the 4 'higher' jhanas, which also use 'unbounded' objects (in fact, 2 of those are in the kasina list). In the suttas (in AN, DN, MN), the expression is (in one English rendering) "one perceives [the kasina object] above, below, on all sides, undivided, unbounded." In the Visudhimagga (commentaries) extending the sign (nimitta) was described in more detail (Chapter IV, 126ff). Note: the Brahma-Viharas (goodwill, compassion,…) also were, for G.Buddha, "immeasureables", and as such among the possible objects of jhana absorption.

As Jenny put it (9/23/14 5:40 PM as a reply to Dream Walker): "Again, is there a special purpose to this kind of meditation object?

In the original sources, the purpose of kasina objects was for attaining jhana.

Nikolai answers (9/25/14 7:56 AM as a reply to Jenny) "The purpose, as I see it, is to calm, direct and sustain the incessant flow of thought,"

i.e. standard preparation of jhanic factors for 1st jhana. He adds "The Buddha asks one to contemplate secondary objects…" i.e. vipassana interpretation of anapanasati instructions. (Sujato, tho, seems to insist the thrust of anapanasati is towards jhana.) But this all lacks mention of working with the immeasurable quality to deepen the ekaggata (one-pointedness of mind) factor. Is that because these instructions are intended only at a beginning level?