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Morality and Daily Life

RE: victim identity

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/23/14 1:14 PM as a reply to Bill Glamdring.
Bill,

Enough.

Florian (mod)


Bill Glamdring:
... 

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/23/14 9:44 PM as a reply to Bill Glamdring.
Jen Pearly:
Wow!  You are engaged in name calling now.

Since you are so upset, Bill, and I'm done with conversing with you, why don't you take up your problem with the other mods or the owner?

I don't see a single instance on here I "engaged in name calling". You want to tergiversate and ignore the important substances that fall under this discussion? I bring these serious concerns up and these are the only measures of yourself you respond with?

You are just representing your kind, or, wait, are you not?

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 12:07 AM as a reply to Bill Glamdring.
What is the "correct" response in this situation? What is the compassionate response, one that honors what is real and true? 

Jen, you have clearly acknowledged that you wish to change the culture of this forum. You perceive it as male dominated, not a fully safe place for women to express themselves. I am at something of a disadvantage because I did not read the original thread, only this one. But people have been spelling out their positions here, and this is how I read yours. 

Bill, you are expressing anger at what you believe is a dangerous and polarizing position on Jen's part, one that could harm the forum's true purpose. You also resent Jen's seizing the moral high ground, as far as I can tell. You strongly desire that Jen cease and desist her dangerous agenda. 

I might begin by asking whether the forum does in fact tolerate or even encourage sexist behavior in some of its participants, or whether it is by virtue of its demographic intimidating to women. The next question might be whether it's appropriate for anyone who believes it does some or all of these things to try to change it. 

I'll begin with the first question. I think it essential that people feel free to be themselves as we talk about stuff that is inevitably personal and way out of the mainstream. There tends to be a lot of aggressive energy here, people getting in each other's faces. We need to be able to hash stuff out and let people do that. I would not want to see anyone make it her mission to change this. Aggressive energy may be intimidating to some lurkers, some female, others male. But to say that it should change in order to make this place more hospitable to women is unfair to both men and women. A woman is, first and foremost, an adult. If adults are intimidated by a particular culture, they are free to go elsewhere, or maybe examine their fear and use it as an opportunity for self-inquiry. 

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 12:24 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
On the other side, though, sometimes people are out of line. Honesty means we call them out. People can get into a contest over who has the right to silence whom. One person has told Bill to cool it. He finds it impossible to stop, though, because he isn't getting what he wants, which is an acknowledgement of what may be right in his position. Under the current circumstances, I don't expect Jen to provide that. So here is what I'll say:

Bill, if Jen is in her way demanding a safe place for her (and other women) to discuss practice, then you get to do the same. What is conducive to safety? There need to be some filters on what people get to say. Who decides, and who decides who decides? You are willing to allow people to label bad behavior as long as people don't attribute it to sexism. Can you, though, imagine any circumstance at all where a person's comment might be justifiably labeled as sexist? Have you ever seen such comments here? I personally have not, but I haven't read everything by a long shot. 

Jen, if you want to embark on a campaign to change the culture here, what do you envision doing? Is there a point at which such a campaign might end up doing more harm than good? The men who are participating on this forum have as much right as the women to express themselves. 

I guess this is it for now. Peace be with you. 

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 12:35 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
I need to add that I am having trouble getting messages from people, especially as I used to have another account here with a different email and picture. Both accounts have the same name. I didn't plan it that way, but it just happened. I don't know the password for my old account either! Sorry. Maybe Daniel and I can fiddle with it and get it straightened out sometime. 

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 1:45 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Hi Jane,

Jane Laurel Carrington:
I need to add that I am having trouble getting messages from people, especially as I used to have another account here with a different email and picture. Both accounts have the same name. I didn't plan it that way, but it just happened. I don't know the password for my old account either! Sorry. Maybe Daniel and I can fiddle with it and get it straightened out sometime. 


I disabled your alternate account so it no longer shows up in the messages form.

Simon

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 2:02 AM as a reply to Jane Laurel Carrington.
Jane,

Thanks for this, it is good to have somebody with an honest and good intention to mediate between the different sides. However, I think/feel that your assessment fits only partially.

1. I think Bill is a troll. Maybe he is Sawfoot's current reincarnation. His join date is just one day after the other thread's deletion, and he made posts only to this thread. He is way too agressive for a serious meditator. Yes, regular practitioners can be negative, argumentative, angry or sometimes even outright agressive. But time after time (and typically increasingly more often as they progress) they also have moments of mindfullnes which lead to more measured and skillful behavior. Ranting about alleged feminist oppression for days is at best childish but certainly not skillful. And it is not representative of this site's culture. Anyways, even if people did not explicitly distanced themselves from sexism that does not imply that they are sexists. Under the assumption that Bill is indeed a troll, his activity can be thought of as an attempt to insinuate that this is a bigot, opressive community.

2. As for Jen, I think her case is more about responsibility. She got strong DhO positions very quickly. She became the editor of MCTB2 (and as a result has special access to Daniel's time) and now even a moderator. Even if her assessment that this is an opressive place is true one cannot change it that quickly and voluntarily. But I think that assessment is by and large not a good fit. She was insulted by one long time contributor at the heat of the other thread (which was itself a giant provocation of the community by Sawfoot) who later, in this thread, explicitly apologized to her.

Jen,

I didn't want to talk about you "behind your back", so the above is also addressed to you - if this matters at all.

Z

Ps. I'm a mostly read-only member, but I do lift weights have a regular meditation practice which I feel often benefits from the DhO. That's why I felt I should share my thoughts.

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 2:10 AM as a reply to Zed Z.
I think that people are quick to rise to the bait here on both sides and that calmness, tolerance, and politeness should be increased when possible.

I find all this drama to be very far from what I wish to see here. Where it is coming from, I can't be certain. Obviously, it takes all sides to tango.

Let's try to back up, quit pushing everyone's buttons, quit responding when they are pushed if possible, and get back to helping people learn useful things they can do to explore these fascinating realms.

Daniel

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 2:49 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

Let's try to back up, quit pushing everyone's buttons, quit responding when they are pushed if possible, and get back to helping people learn useful things they can do to explore these fascinating realms.

Daniel


My apology was sincere and also an attempt to move things into direction you're talking about above. I'm a bit dissapointed that it was used as an argument for proving someone's point. Speaking of proving a point, my ego is going to have to be satisfied with what I've just said and nothing more.

ZedZ, I shar your opinion on the troll part. Either that or very angry meditator emoticon

Jane Laurel Carrington,
Thank you for wisdom.

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 9:13 AM as a reply to Zed Z.
Thanks to the three of you. I feel concerned that I was too easy on Bill--he really was over the line. I think I was really responding to others who may have felt their position was being excluded. Bill is hardly the right spokesman for that position and angry rants that escalate are trolling. 

In part I was thinking about a comment I heard on a recent retreat, from a psychologist. He said that anger is often given short shrift by Buddhists, and that people may mistakenly think repression is the answer to strong emotion. This, of course, is a losing strategy.

It may make sense to open a thread on anger and practice. In my own case, I used to be angry pretty much all the time; once one provocation lost its punch I'd find another. This practice has dialed down that reactivity to the point that I rarely get angry at all, and even then it blows over quickly. Fear is a different thing, unfortunately, but that's not the point here, which is that I don't think slapping down one's own or another person's anger is necessarily the best approach. But Bill was repeating the same rant over and over, and no one needs that. 

Thanks again, everyone.

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 9:40 AM as a reply to Zed Z.
Sorry, no, I'm not a troll. I wrote those messages over and over again because they were meant to be read over and over again.

I do not respect this type of behavior and have actually seen such thinking ruin innocent people's lives, so I am here to say No and to hold her accountable. 

I honestly do not understand what this big hooplah really is, in total seriousness, I'm wowed that respect for the forum at large isn't touched on by our friend Jen here. 

You think this is a troll? Please. I have seen real life feminist trolls ruin peoples real life lives. It's not alright to just parade it around this place for those squirrel reasons.

End of discussion. I am happy I am understood.

RE: victim identity
Answer
9/24/14 9:59 AM as a reply to Bill Glamdring.
I'm locking this thread.

Florian (mod)