Discussion Forum Discussion Forum

Claims to Attainments

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings

Threads [ Previous | Next ]
Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 2:53 PM
I began a thread under Shinzen Young with these quotes:

HPK: During the last retreat here you mentioned that many of your students are more enlightened than they think they are.
After 30 years of working in the field, what have you observed that’s common, and what’s different about your student’s experiences of
enlightenment? How do their experiences compare to, for instance, those found in Kapleau’s “Three Pillars of Zen”, or Buddhagosa’s
“Vissuddhimagga”? How common is that dramatic, sudden experience of enlightenment as compared to the more gradual and even integration.

SZY:
The sudden epiphany that’s described in many books about enlightenment, that has definitely happened to some of my students. And when it happens, it’s similar to what is described in those books. How frequently does it happen? I don’t know. I don’t keep statistics, but maybe a couple times a year.

Here is Shinzen's interview at Buddhist Geeks: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

I was surprised to see that this number is quite small, "a couple of times a year" despite of Shinzen's strong kensho-background via Rinzai Zen. Anyway, this thread is not about him (nor was the one I posted before).

I would like to know statistics (numbers) of how many stream-entries various guides/teachers verify during some period of time (perhaps on a retreat, during a month or year) and how many who apply the practice that is meant for a breakthrough actually pass the gate. Through numbers I wish to outline how methods actually work.

The reason I am asking this is because I have many times heard being said words like "humanity still hasn't found a way to mass awakenings" or words to that nature. In fact, I recall also Shinzen saying that somewhere.

I guess many here know LU, Liberation Unleashed. I am not up-to-date with their work but requested this info from Elena Nezhinsky who is one of the LU-founders. She said she will gladly find the information I am asking. I think they have found a wonderful way to awaken people.

I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
How do you determine that someone has achieved 'stream-entry'? How many had prior meditation and seeking?

A text conversation in which awakening is expected seems like an unreliable way to collect data.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:52 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
DD,

There are three ways for either verification or falsification that I use (not in specific order).

1. Written word/answers given by the person
2. A newly taken profile photo where eyes are clearly seen (because the I-sense falls off from the level of the eyes)
3. The energetic feeling/sensation that is transmitted from the particular person (where you need to be able to compare to your own awakened state whether an awakening has occurred or not)

Refer to the book for further info: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5594955

I've had people ranging from 2 months of meditation background to 30 years of "professional" practice (10 years out of those 30 as a monk). Prior practices vary from simple stress reduction exercises to Transcendental Meditation, from kriya yoga to tai chi. Ages between 23-70. Men and women. All European so far.

Based on my exp emailing is not unreliable at all. emoticon

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:16 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Is the process effective beyond stream entry?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:31 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Can you estimate an average amount of experience for the people you work with? And, your criteria remain unconvincing to me. I'd like to believe awakening is that easy, but I doubt it. It's remarkable what people will script themselves into if they've paid money.

Also, to partially answer Simon's question, I think your definition of 'stream-entry' isn't congruent with the typical definition of stream-entry around here. Your 'stream-entry' is 'MCTB arhatship', I think.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:10 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:31 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:03 AM as a reply to Teague.
Teague:
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T
T. I can ask. I've formed a closed FB-group for people who have passed the gate through this process. That has been a handy platform for open discussion.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:21 AM as a reply to J J.
J J:
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

JJ,

Um, I don't know about this sort of stuff. Maybe it is a poor choice of words but awakening is not an experience as Bill Joslin said. Maybe they confuse awakening/enlightenment with something else. Certainly for me, my late teacher as well as to each one who has awakened in my guidance awakening is a "big deal", a turning point. By big deal, I mean a definite shift that is permanent, dropping of I from the place of subject. That is how the gang of robbers looses it's boss, in a psychological sense, and that is never an insignificant thing. If it was an insignificant thing I doubt people of the past or present would be interested in it.

If awakening is something that makes the person better, higher or more precious than others, then we are not talking about awakening as how I understand it. For me awakening hasn't brought an "aura of mystery", a higher position in relation to others or something like that but the contrary, naturalness and simplicity.

I certainly don't think that awakenings are "extremely common". If they were, the world society and the planet would be in a very different place. Sure, awakenings do occur these days much more often than for example 10, 50 or 100 years ago but still, I think, it will be perhaps hundreds of years before we can talk about "mass awakenings" that will have a direct effect on the society. That is simple not the situation at the moment. 

Hakuin's quote "The Way is not far from man" is spot on. He does say that there is some distance between man and the Way which in practical terms means that everyone is not already awakened. Surely Hakuin wasn't before he had first breakthrough. I think he wrote in his diary that he had 18 breakthroughs which made him the most respected zen-master of the modern times.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 2:43 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I agree.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:36 AM as a reply to Rod.
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:47 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The only study I'm aware of regarding the rate of awakenings (in this case: stream entry, according to Therevada criteria) was a study in which meditators on a three month retreat were studied before during and after the retreat. Teachers were asked to identify which students had hit which milestones and this teacher assessment was correlated with changes in thematic apperceptive testing and other qaultitative 'measurements' of the students.

The study was done twice: with (mostly) Burmese meditators in Burma and with (mostly) Western students at IMS in Barre Massachusetts(I think it was IMS, anyway). In the former case the Stream Entry rate was something like 50% I think. In the latter case it was much much lower, maybe even 1%. As I recall the analysis of this disparity was that the Burmese students followed instructions at a higher rate while the Western students at IMS didn't follow instructions at a high rate.

The study is discussed in "Transformations of Consciousness" which is a collaborative book by Ken Wilber, Dan Brown (now a mahamudra teacher) and Jack Engler. I think Brown and Engler conducted the study. The book is from the late seventies or early eighties I think (maybe, it's been a while since I've looked at it).

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:50 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
OK. Thanks Jake.

I have Brown's book on mahamudra but don't recall him referring to this study, have to check it.

50% vs. 1%. Gee... That's a huge difference. 3 months huh? That's pretty intensive, most Westerners couldn't even join one. I don't know if the Burmese method aims to stream entry or not.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:16 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Sorry for being unclear, yes, the Burmese method does directly aim at it; it's one of the traditions that uses that specific language and frames awakening in terms of Four Paths of which SE is the first. This is a tradition that has heavily influenced the culture here at DhO. Daniel's work and that of other pioneers in the pragmatic dharma scene could be seen as a response to the conditions which result in such low success rates for Westerners.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:17 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.


Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

Ooh, Ooh! Mr Kotter! I know!  The success rate for Stream Enterers is 100% of those who enter the Stream.  Just messin' with ya!  :-), but seriously, I know nothing....which is indeed a paradox in and of itself....

Psi Phi

Just brushing up on my "wrong speech"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:18 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:

Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail. I posted some questions about the notions my students have made after the initial breakthrough. Not all of them are keen Facebook/internet-users but I hope I get answers at least from half of them.

I suppose that for those who have little or close to none meditataion/practice background there might have been moments/periods when they have felt they lost it. Personally in my case, I thought so several times in my head. However the "I" never came back, it never became a memory which would imply of an experience. Hence the awakening would have not been a real permanent breakthrough. Will get back with the information from the apes. Yeah, the group we have at Facebook for these folks is named "Apes on their way to liberation". We openly speak of apes emoticon

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 3:11 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.


Ok.

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 4:07 PM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Right. I'll go through the Folk-recording and the threads tomorrow.

I have transmissions/tunings with my students both in person as well as through Skype, sometimes without Skype or any other online-media because I'm a tantric yoga teacher. Also, my late teacher used this method as her primary teaching tool (she lived at Hawaii while I live in Finland) so I'm well aware of it. I also teach this stuff to my students who will someday pass transmissions themselves to their students.

I'd say tuning in with anything is a basic skill for a tantric yogi. But just like you mention it is crucial to know some basics of who does it, how and to whom. Common morals and ethics go a long way here too.

I'll get back on this.

Baba