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RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings

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RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:56 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail.

Interesting thread -- how much do we really know (demographics and among the range of definitions)?

What is Theravadan SE? Two directions -- how it's attained (and recognized), and what it does for one.

Here's a relatively succint (ca 80 pages) intro by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html

Here's additional information on his take of it (not found in the book):
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5585083#_19_message_5596761

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:16 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Florian Weps:


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind
that you are unsure of?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 5:20 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind that you are unsure of?


Like I said: does it stick? How do people deveolp after transmission? How to deal with the possibility of abuse of the power gradient?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE


Yeah, the "death metal aesthetics" of awakening emoticon

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 7:29 AM as a reply to Florian Weps.
Oh, right! Now I understand the context of your question.

To make sure there is difference between 1. direct pointing (whether it is done by verbal pointing or the way how the zen master does it in the film, I think it is a fabolous clip btw) and 2. transmission of energy/shakti. This is a clear distinction though sometimes it is not so black and white, meaning that either one can and does effect the other.

From my own behalf as a teacher I can say that I use both approaches because I think the tantric method doesn't do very good in regards to stream entry (dropping of I, the primary cause of delusion) while it does great in reg to karmic cleansing while analytical meditation (subject vipashyana) used in direct pointing works well for the purpose. Analysis of I-ness/I-lessness could be continued (karmic purification, the secondary causes of delusion) after the subject I has dropped but I think such approach is just too slow and time consuming for the common dedicated practitioner. This is why I combine both approaches, at least for time being.

I am sure that when shakti transmissions are done 1. by a valid at least awakened person who is well trained in meditation and has 2. to a larger part or completely cleansed his/her karmic body, then surely there is long-term benefit for the person receiving it. However, these two requirements are very rarely fulfilled in all the shaktipats/transmissions that I've seen. Usually, it is more or less an "esoteric cocktail".

In the other thread there was the example how someone got the transmission of the elder chan monk and his fingers, urine and whatever turned to taste sweet. I didn't see him saying if this has actually been beneficial to him. He did say that he didn't feel or notice any difference with the exception of the taste. Anyway, licking your own or others fingers or tasting your urine after transmission to see how or if it has worked or not sounds way too *weird* for me. I do not know who we are talking about but this does not sound pregnant with wisdom to me. Sorry.

I've witnessed several cases of world known "masters or satgurus" giving their blessings or initiations when the outcome of it has solely been negative: people getting sick and nautious, some even for a long period of time before they have received help from more competent healers or teachers.

Oh boy, now that I came to think of this... I've seen so screwed up things happen you wouldn't believe. My late teacher used to laugh at me because I used to take up these "big boys". Now recalling all those things these world gurus do to their devotees and students makes me extremely sad for all of them. I can only sincerely pray that it will turn out better for them.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:49 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:30 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:47 PM as a reply to Psi Phi.
Psi Phi:

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi
PP,

Yes, the first one. I mentioned in the prev post two terms that I use: primary cause of delusion (subject) and secondary causes of delusion (all objects/karmas) which seem to nicely fit with the model you post here. In my exp these two stages are the main ones. I call them awakening/enlightenment and liberation (jivanmukta/arhat). After this there is also the third main stage of full buddhahood/paramukta-hood. These three main stages can be chopped into several smaller ones (as is done with the bodhisattva bhumis) but I use this map because it is easy to understand.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:53 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
Droll Dedekind:
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.
Their claims can be verified by reading all those dialogues from their online forum. I have no reason to think that Elena would have made those numbers up. I do have one student who awoke through LU in just 2 days, that went very smoothly. One of my student knows better about LU than I do. In reg to stream entry it seems to me they do better than all the trads combined. But just as it has been said, it is not everything, just the beginning.

No, I am not eager to do the experiment here but if you wish you can download a free e-book and read how I do it:
http://en.samadhipath.com/114

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 2:50 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I don't think any deliberate deception is at work here. But...

When there are archives full of these conversations, that seekers have presumably read, is it any surprise that people can reproduce answers that sound like an awakening? To complicate matters, there are probably some people that have been seeking for years that have woken up through LU. But, their years of previous work were essential to that awakening. I think it's common for teachers to have an anticlimactic awakening after years of seeking, and then assume that they (and anyone) could have just had that awakening from the beginning. It's easy to underestimate the creeping effect of years of spiritual seeking.

Then, there are probably scores of people on LU who believe that awakening is merely an intellectual understanding. They see that the process has (ostensibly) worked for so many others; it's human nature to want to be in the club of people who 'got it'. Guide status, and a colored username too? Oooo

A Crowley poem comes to mind. Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:47 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:48 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
buddha!

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:01 AM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.
DD,

What is the problem if someone wants to produce learned answers? That is no harm for the guide but for the person himself. We talked about this with my assistant teachers.

At LU they leave the confirmation of the awakening mostly for the person himself. The guide discusses about the awakening with 2-3 other guides before the awakening is confirmed. They as do I request the person to be honest and as clear as possible in the dialogue. As there are so many guides at LU I suppose some of them can and some of them can't vefiry or falsify the seeker's awakening also without the written answers. I combine three ways of verification which are: 1. written answers/explanations of what has taken place, 2. photo before and after and 3. testing ones awakening in everyday life. As I'm trained in this I'm pretty sure I can spot if someone tries to trick me. In these awakening guidances it hasn't happened but on other issues has. I feel it instantly if the person is talking the truth or not, or if it tastes like paper (merely intellectual). That is fine for me if people wish to speak falsely but in the case of awakening guidances I certainly wouldn't pass such a person. I'd say that being able to spot these things is the difference between an amateur and a professional teacher. It requires years of in-depth training with a competent teacher/s.

Also, what is the issue if and when people have long backgrounds of meditation/practices? I don't see what is the matter with that question.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:12 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 5:06 AM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:26 AM as a reply to Rod.
Rod:
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

Thank you for presenting this fella and his work.  I put myself through one of his guided sessions and at first I was critical for him always asking the question and then giving the answer and then I decided to treat it as a guided visualization and that is when it started to work for me.   It can cut through delusions -- he is simply using logic, a logic that is not of the mind.   Any process that can get the being to even temporarily bypass their mind is of value.  And even if the being cannot immediately disengage from their enforced games of life, they will never forget it as an experience of a !wow! moment and at some point want to re-create that experience, seeking it out.   I also saw this occur occasionally with people going through the Sedona Method Course. 

I'm committed to finishing another [slow awakening] practice for now, but once in awhile I like to give myself a "cat-treat" and do some back-to-basics self enquiry, namely, "what am I?".  You know -- that inner "purrrrr"   :-))

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:51 AM as a reply to Colleen Karalee Peltomaa.
Colleen Karalee Peltomaa:
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?
Colleen,

No, I don't mind.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 3:57 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Did this message not get to you?  There was a server reset on the night I sent it...

"Do you want your sudden awakening?  Colleen has it in a little box under her bed.  She has been saving it for you, waiting to give it to you on your BirthDay"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 7:35 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
My previous post seems needlessly critical, sorry.

To put it more positively: if LU gave short surveys that asked pointees about their previous meditation/spiritual experience, then success rates could be put into more descriptive brackets. Like, Average Joe Success Rate 15%-20%, ..., 10+ Years of Meditation Success Rate 90%. These stats would be more interesting.

I'm gonna give LU a sincere try soon. I'll post here if I have to eat my words emoticon