Wylos Practice

Wylos Practice wylo . 20/02/12 18:04
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 26/02/12 10:08
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 27/02/12 07:15
RE: Wylos Practice Tommy M 27/02/12 15:00
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 29/02/12 13:42
RE: Wylos Practice Tommy M 29/02/12 15:02
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 29/02/12 16:05
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 01/03/12 13:50
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 02/03/12 05:04
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 05/03/12 09:00
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 07/03/12 08:42
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 14/05/12 19:39
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RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 17/05/12 09:04
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 18/05/12 07:33
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RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 18/05/12 20:03
RE: Wylos Practice Russell . 19/05/12 10:31
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 21/05/12 10:10
RE: Wylos Practice (D Z) Dhru Val 22/05/12 01:05
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 22/05/12 06:48
RE: Wylos Practice An Eternal Now 22/05/12 09:25
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 23/05/12 08:49
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 24/05/12 06:50
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 29/05/12 10:43
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 05/07/12 08:37
RE: Wylos Practice End in Sight 05/07/12 09:15
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 06/07/12 08:09
RE: Wylos Practice End in Sight 20/07/12 06:49
RE: Wylos Practice Saul P 06/07/12 13:16
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 07/07/12 13:46
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 12/07/12 13:05
RE: Wylos Practice An Eternal Now 20/07/12 13:21
RE: Wylos Practice An Eternal Now 20/07/12 13:44
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 15/08/12 17:50
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 15/08/12 18:06
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 16/08/12 08:17
RE: Wylos Practice End in Sight 16/08/12 09:16
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 22/08/12 15:57
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 08/09/12 08:41
RE: Wylos Practice An Eternal Now 22/05/12 09:17
RE: Wylos Practice (D Z) Dhru Val 23/05/12 00:18
RE: Wylos Practice wylo . 23/05/12 06:45
wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 20/02/12 18:04
Created 12 anys ago at 20/02/12 17:48

Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
This is long, but Ive done my best to arrange it so you dont have to trawl through it, and can skip to certain bits that may interest you.
Ok I didnt want to post originally, because I sometimes get a bit intimated by the references to certain states, insights, practices , etc here.
But then I said "meh", as there seems to be more enthusiasm here for solid practice and genuine insight and results rather than knowing the terminology of the spiritual scene.

My conventional knowledge in all this stretches to one basic read of MCTB, Im going to read it again though, because I can tell Ill be able to pick up more and more as time goes on.

Anyway , thats my disclaimer over and done with.

So there are 4 parts:
- Where I think I am
- What I want
- My Practice
- The point of this thread.

If you want to skip to just certain bits and offer advice? Im all ears!!

Where I think I am Whether Ive hit MCTB 1st path or not doesnt really matter. Truthfully, with all honesty, I think I have about 10 months ago after a huge shift in perception , both in terms of how I perceived life in general, and how things physically looked. AFter that everything change inside, what became important, what didnt etc, but as well all know, this whole enlightenment business is full of annoying paradoxes that never seem to make sense , so even though "everything changed", nothing really changed either, I couldnt tell you with conviction that what Id be doing conventionally in my life would be any different had I not had that change, so it may be 1st path, or it may not, if not, I have in the past 2/3 months been getting very close. I could be talking through my arse as well but just the more I read the more I can relate to the experience.
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SKIP TO NEXT BOLD BIT IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ A LONG RANT ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
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Current overall experience regarding how I feel since a big change 10 months:

- low/high/fluctuating self esteem completely gone

- Stress gone

- Flustered feeling gone

- Feeling below or above another person gone

- mild depression pretty much gone (Id say 100% gone only I may have experienced very short bouts, like seconds or minutes long from time to time)

- alot , but not all irritation over silly things gone, and for the bit thats left, a certain acceptance of the experience (even though Im still aware its due to a lack of clarity). Its important I say "certain" acceptance, there are still times I feel very mildly disappointed over being annoyed at something. Even if the whole thing is entirely subtle.

- inner running dialogue that was almost deeper than conventional loud thought, gone, leaving an empty head alot of the time, but still general running thought alot of the time. I would imagine this will continue the rest of my life.

- some deep joy/love in phases, sometimes it can last a few days, sometimes a few hours

- times when it feels Im completely free of even subtle tension, (a true THIS IS IT feeling), doesnt last though, and doesnt hold up if I run into a fearful situation.

- fear , this is a tough one to call, huge progress being made, I would say a huge amount of my fear has gone, but because I keep pushing the bar higher I still get into fearful situations, example: This morning , as I walked around town I felt a great emptiness and peace, but later that day I was going to be cold calling into a shop and it was going to be my first ever approach for my new business, right before it , I could feel a strong fear. I just allowed it to happen, and then got out of the car and went in and did it. I wont lie, Id prefer it be gone completely. Another example of pushing the bar is my attendance of Toastmasters where I have began public speaking (a long time fear) . But to sum up, yea, I still get nervous. And yea I "relapse" too from time to time, i.e. I find myself nervous in a situation that maybe a few weeks ago I thought I was completely done with.

Regarding fear overall, its probably not helping that the gauge is all over the place due to whats going on in my life now. Im meeting alot of new people, and running into a lot of very new situations , making calls that I would imagine alot of people feel uncomfortable with,because Im trying to start a business.

- inhibitions ? Alot still remain, well some do anyway (I wouldnt have done all the stuff I just described in the fear section if it wasnt for the experience of seeing no self). I definitely act in situations that I would have just left alone before. But I still don't do things I would like to be able to do, and where there is no real reason I shouldnt do them.

- Regarding insight: I have gained a tremendous very close understanding of suffering and no self, Im still working on trying to understand and experience impermanence.Please bare in mind my limited knowledge of whats being talked about here.
i.e. Im aware that that sentence may sound like Im just spouting off stuff I read in MCTB, and maybe it is the case, but I guess to be more accurate, I can I really "get" no self, I experience it, and I really do experience the reasons for suffering, in terms of thought and conditioning causing it, but when it comes to experiencing impermanence, or more so, KNOWING it, I dont think Im quite there, even though I fully understand it, and make good progress in practice.

I can hit fruition when meditating, not all the time, but alot of the time, sometimes I even hit something similar during the day or what not, if I am in a particularly relaxed situation (even if it means Im just walking down the town).





What I want:
Well, I guess , genuine equanimity. A true 100% acceptance of suffering, an ability to embrace it beyond what I can do now. I guess if Im being honest, I want another "hit", a jump, something that matches the permanent change factor I experienced 10 months ago. "Full enlightenment", 4th path, or even 1st path if Im not already there,whatever, just another significant step anyway. There has been MANY "this is it" moments the past 2/3 months. But its gotten to a point now that I dont even expect anything from it when it happens. Just those moments of absolutely clear true peace and emptiness not just in the head, but all the way to the bottom of the feet, an astounding silence would be the most accurate way of describing it.

So yea, overall, I want that thing that seems to be described by Ingram and others here, that true no watcher, no doer, no one in control, absolutely zero doubt, not once questioning it.




My practice:
I was still a little confused as to whether to just stick with insight practice or do some concentration, or do them both at the same time(if that even makes sense).

But anyway, heres my current practice.

1. On a not too busy day, firstly about 1 to 1.5 hours of concentration on an object , usually the breath, I dont have much of an issue at all with thought getting in the way, unless its been a very hectic day , or if Im really really tired. Unfortunately the concentration tends to go away from the breath, to just general awareness. The breath gets so quiet that my attention seems to just stay on general awareness. I use this opportunity to truly experience the senses without "translating" them. If there is a sound, I can get to a point where I am only hearing the sound and not imagining what the sound is, same goes for all the other senses. Even the feelings of my hands touching each other no longer become "my hands touching each other", just a sense experience in that area.
After going through the cycle, and getting very relaxed and very deep I eventually come out of it around 50 minutes and start to get restless, I stay with the feelings and the tension and eventually get very relaxed again, this might go on for another half an hour before restlessness arrives again and I finish up. Its worth noting I spend alot of this time making sure Im going back to the breath.
Im usually left feeling quite peaceful and relaxed after all this, sometimes this lasts quite a while.

2. Secondly, I do insight meditation, usually about an hour. I concentrate as hard as I can on every thing that is happening, and try and observe the fact that all it is is constant vibrations. I try my best to stay away from the content of thought, and just experience the thought as it arises instead. The first few minutes this can be difficult, but Im not hard on myself, after about 10 minutes, I just begin to experience all sensations , random example: picture thought -> feet vibration -> nose vibration ->head vibration -> words thought ->stomach tension -> hands vibration -> right leg vibration -> head tension ->split second flash thought -> stomach tension -> finger vibration ->hearing a sound ->whole body vibrates quite intensely etc etc etc.
After a long bout of insight meditation, I tend to feel more "no self"ish (if that makes sense), and I tend to feel like Ive gone deeper into the insight, but I dont necessarily feel better or more chilled out than after concentration meditation.
It can very straining too. Its definitely not as "nice" as concentration meditation.

3. I attempt as best as I can remember to experience all senses just as they are throughout my day, Id be lying if I said I was doing this succesfully, Im forgetting most of the time.
Throughout the day, I also attempt to find whatever bits of tension there might be,and then observe as it tunes out and back in etc. Again, I wont lie, this practice is falling down a bit, I think I may need to start setting reminders on my phone. That might sound stupid. But I could spend the hours thinking and experiencing this form of "liberation" to a certain degree, its actually the default topic that occupies my mind if its not preoccupied, and during all this I will forget to actually do any practice, or Ill feel to lazy to do it.






The point of this thread:

1. Theres the whole thing of "oops I started this big ass thread, now I gotta prove Im going to actually do it",
2. I hope that someone might read it, and be able to tell me if Im going in the completely right or wrong direction in general.
3. Theyll perhaps be able to diagnose an experience or how Im feeling a bit better than I can.
4. Theyll be able to give specific pointers on practice.

Thanks for reading!
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 26/02/12 10:08
Created 12 anys ago at 26/02/12 09:50

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Ok Ive been doing alot but not paying attention enough in terms of translating it here, that said, today, I decided to make a very good concious effort to keep in mind and remember where Im at while sitting.

So Im going to start this thread with todays sit,

I have a comfortable spot, cushion, on the ground with my back resting on the side of the bed,in lotus position. I think there would be too much strain if I didnt have that support, and I believe sitting on a chair would cause aches as well.

0 - 10mins: Decent concentrated effort on breath, little to no disruptions thought wise, when there is it lasts about 10 seconds before I realize Ive been distracted. I count my breath in sets of 10 the for the first 5 minutes until the counting eventually gets boring, and wears off. While there is decent concentration, the effort required is very real.

10 -20mins: The most difficult part Im thinking, still decent concentration on breath but an increase in the seduction of thought,often going 20 seconds + , possibly more getting caught up in thought, until there is a sort of "cmon man concentrate" moment.

20 -25 mins: A very thorough effort in concentrating on breath, still effort required, but thought fading alot at this stage.

25 -35 mins 1st Jhana (based on as much reading as possible on it, but mainly based on MCTB ), the effort required is dropped out, a very clean clear empty state of mind, quite pleasureful, and to give an analogy of the breath, its like a really thirsty person, where each breath is a drink of water. Just quite nice and relieving.
Any thought that does arise is very very weak, unseductive, only a split second and length, and very quiet.

35 - 40 mins Restlessness kicking in, boredom with 1st jhana, but a knowing that this feeling doesnt get stronger, it actually subsides

40 - 50 minsIm thinking second Jhana, the breath becomes less of the object of attention and just a general high concentration on everything that makes up the body, notable sensations of heart pulse, and even a pulse in the head. Pretty much no thought, except towards the end where thought and restlessness begin to take over a small bit again.

50 - 52/53 mins More restlessness, and weak thought occupying the mind, but also strong pleasure, a confidence of being in a deep state of concentration, but less of that concentration geared towards the breath.

53 - 70 mins Possibly 3rd Jhana, if the description of MCTB is to go by. A difficulty in keeping focus on the breath at this stage, but ironically still in a very very high state of concentration.
Almost the breath is just this really nice thing thats making of the centre of the pleasant experience of existing, but isnt the focal point of it.
A strong natural urge to begin insight practice, as a matter of fact it feels like it happens without effort at all. A strong noticing of body sensations, but also a feel that there is no body, just the sensations. Very pleasureful, sense of self notably reduced, emptiness increased.


Then more restlessness, but also a stronger desire to finish up, but also reaching the end of the time Id planned on sitting so I do get up.

Its worth noting throughout this sit, I probably moved myself about 2/3 times, i.e. just sat up a little, or stretched, just to relieve any pain that was arising. I also got one or 2 "cold" spells,just a sort a quick shiver down the back and through the body.

I think from now on, I will use this kind of practice but try and amalgamate this with insight practice and better noticing of tension.

After getting up there is still residual feelings of concentration and no body. This tends to wear off. Leaving the desire to become fully enlightened/4th path whatever aside. I can see how this type of concentration can be extremely good for you in a conventional sense in terms of well being, and higher concentration with regular things in general.

Another quick thing to note, it was sort of funny , even though I felt quite peaceful after it, and still in a highly pleasurable state, the laptop suddenly turned off in the middle of writing all this (what I didnt know was I was lucky it saved what I was writing), but I instantly felt strong tension/annoyance in the stomach when it happened, not sure what the point of writing this bit is for, but its just worth acknowledging.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 27/02/12 07:15
Created 12 anys ago at 27/02/12 06:56

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Tried the same again last night, was very tired, and despite feeling clear and thought free I just kept turning off. I stopped after about 30 mins and went to sleep altogether. Lesson learned, dont do this when you are fit for going to sleep.

However, this morning I got up ,and sat for an hour.

It followed the same general pattern for the first 25 minutes, and then Im pretty sure I reached first Jhana. I sat with this for a while and made sure I was in a deep state of concentration, and then moved onto insight practice. It was initially a little difficult to cross over, the attention kept going back to the breath, but with time I began to follow the senses more and more, Im finding it a little difficult at times to recognise that Im going through the progress of insight, it just doesnt seem as clear cut as it seems to lay out in MCTB, I recognise all different parts of it, but whether they are in the sequence or not is still questionable.


Since yesterday evening Ive been an experience a thorough emptiness, but once again I know how many times Ive had "this is it" moments only for them to fade away again, so Im not too bothered about it. Im also aware that the jhanas and concentration practice can leave you feeling "more enlightened", i.e. mistaking a clear peaceful mind for insight.

Anyway, Ive finally realized the importance of access concentration for insight practice. That was problem originally, I was just seperating the 2, thinking that concentration and insight practice were two things that are done completely seperately, but Ive realized now what I need to do, and why. So from now I begin with trying to get to 1st Jhana as quick as possible, and then move onto the experience of impermanence of the senses, plus trying to recognise the self, or moreso , what experiencing is making me beleive a presence of me .stuff like Ill notice a sensation "inside" in the head and see what it is, watching it fade and come back, Ill do the same with other sensations, and notice how they are just simply sensations and are not "me", or at least not part of an extra "me".

During insight practice I try and experience how suffering fades in and out, I have read that meditation is great for bringing up your suffering, concentration practice anyway. My issue there is, nothing replaces the real thing.
Example: I might think of a fear that causes pain and tension while sitting (lets say in my personal case, having to approach people to sell my product), but it will be very subtle, it will fade in and out. The real deal is more intense. Lately thats been fading, but really if Im going to be perfectly honest, my sole reason for doing ALL of this, is to eradicate fear through an understanding of it.

Progress is being made. Just a little slower than I thought.
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Tommy M, modificat fa 12 anys at 27/02/12 15:00
Created 12 anys ago at 27/02/12 15:00

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 1199 Data d'incorporació: 12/11/10 Publicacions recents
I had meant to drop in and comment earlier when you posted this but forgot all about it!

Everything's sounding good, I think you've got your shit together and are getting it done. By the way, if you're hitting Fruition then you've got 1st path at least, no question as far as I'm concerned as that's the big one in terms of criteria.

With fear, look at what causes it to arise in the first place. The ñana-like fear doesn't seem to have an obvious cause but if you look closer, it's down to a lack of stability because "I" have seen the entire arising and passing of the very objects "I" thought "I" was. Yet stability is an illusion, impermanence is clearly seen in all things now and we know that there's nowhere for "me" to get a foothold anymore.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 29/02/12 13:42
Created 12 anys ago at 29/02/12 13:29

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Tommy M:
I had meant to drop in and comment earlier when you posted this but forgot all about it!

Everything's sounding good, I think you've got your shit together and are getting it done.


Thanks! It was the other thread with your comments and EISs comments that gave me a kick up the ass!emoticon

By the way, if you're hitting Fruition then you've got 1st path at least, no question as far as I'm concerned as that's the big one in terms of criteria.

I was going to post this in a thread of its own,but I said Id post it here, can I just double check something with you, just to see what you think...
Is the bold bit fruition?
I sit down to meditate, times here are very rough, just laying it out like this to make it easier...
0-25 mins, maybe 0 - 35 mins (or even longer if Im not up to it) spent on trying to simply keep concentration, often a very good concentration during this but still a concsious effort for it to happen.
35 mins - 50 mins, 1st jhana, 2nd jhana (maybe 3rd, basically the head feels like its opening up, the breath and then body is without a doubt the automatic central point of concentration, no effort required whatsoever, extremely relaxing, yet very very awake.
50 mins - 1h 10mins : Concentration thoroughly on all the senses , vibrations, sounds, etc, thorough investigation of all this, sometimes at high speeds there are vibrations, other times not.
1h 10 mins - 1h 20 mins : The senses begin to really feel not mine, just pure experience, they dont represent anything anymore, example: hands touching doesnt feel like "hands touching" anymore, just an experience of senses in that general area(even giving it an "area" is pushing it)
1h 20 mins to 1:30 mins, what I think fruition is , almost a vast nothingness, "Im" not experiencing it, I cant feel the senses anymore, they sort of black out of awareness, I cant feel or see anything, theres no me whatsoever, no colours, no thought or visualisations, just vast "darkness", emptiness, truly feeling like no one is even sitting in the room experiencing anything, yet ironically, despite saying all of that, there is knowledge,or at least the assumption, that it is fruition, usually that thought might jump in straight after experiencing it. This feeling wouldnt stay solid for 10 mins (although its getting better), it would more pop in and out for seconds or longer. Sometimes I even feel I can go into this during the day or when Im going about my business, not with the same intensity by any means, especially seeing as my eyes are open, but still it just feels like I can tap into "non experience", whatever thats supposed to mean emoticon
1:30 onwards: restlessness and a desire to finish up.




With fear, look at what causes it to arise in the first place. The ñana-like fear doesn't seem to have an obvious cause but if you look closer, it's down to a lack of stability because "I" have seen the entire arising and passing of the very objects "I" thought "I" was. Yet stability is an illusion, impermanence is clearly seen in all things now and we know that there's nowhere for "me" to get a foothold anymore.

Thanks, I like the way you've pointed out the nana-like fear , its helped clear that bit up a bit.

Regarding fear in conventional situations, day by day its dissolving more and more, even since starting this thread. Its worth noting that Im really trying to punch high here, example: the fear I keep talking about, my public speaking one is nearly gone. that was HUGE for me my whole life, it aint fully gone, but its more than manageable, its just a discomfort now, not a borderline panic attack. Inhibitions are fading alot as well.

Im fully aware though that this needs momentum. I know its not linear and I could end up posting in a few days that it feels like im going backwards not forwards. So I need to be mindful of that at all times.
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Tommy M, modificat fa 12 anys at 29/02/12 15:02
Created 12 anys ago at 29/02/12 15:02

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 1199 Data d'incorporació: 12/11/10 Publicacions recents
Is the bold bit fruition?

what I think fruition is , almost a vast nothingness, "Im" not experiencing it, I cant feel the senses anymore, they sort of black out of awareness, I cant feel or see anything, theres no me whatsoever, no colours, no thought or visualisations, just vast "darkness", emptiness, truly feeling like no one is even sitting in the room experiencing anything, yet ironically, despite saying all of that, there is knowledge,or at least the assumption, that it is fruition, usually that thought might jump in straight after experiencing it. This feeling wouldnt stay solid for 10 mins (although its getting better), it would more pop in and out for seconds or longer. Sometimes I even feel I can go into this during the day or when Im going about my business, not with the same intensity by any means, especially seeing as my eyes are open, but still it just feels like I can tap into "non experience", whatever thats supposed to mean

If there's any experience happening, any memory of anything or even any knowledge of what goes on between the blink out and rebooting then it wasn't fruition. I don't quite know what it is that you're getting into but it sounds more like a sub-jhanic thing than anything else, even then I'm not sure but I'm fairly certain that it's not a fruition.

Check out this chapter of MCTB, it should help you sort out what's what. It's worth really getting a grip on fruitions, if you can get them then you've got Path but if not then it should at least make it easier to focus your practice and hit stream entry. Give that chapter a read, see what you can do during a sit and be 100% honest with yourself.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 29/02/12 16:05
Created 12 anys ago at 29/02/12 16:05

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Cheers, yea I read that a few times, just read it again to be clear, just wondering are we talking about split second moments of complete and utter non experience? Fractions of a second?

Its really hard to tell, after reading that again, the 10 minute bit definitely aint fruition, because there is still an acknowledgemnt of the experience. But during that 10 minute period (for instance) im thinking there are complete split second flashes of absolutely nothing.

But as you say, I have to be honest, im only THINKING that at the moment, ill definitely have to sit again , a few times, to try and see with total and utter honesty. As you say, even if its not fruition, at least being able to look closer will give me a better chance of hitting stream entry.
Although I gotta say, going by the progress and experience the past while, I'll be shocked if it isnt path. We'll see, Ill keep up the practice, either way, its beneficial, so Ive nothing to lose!

Thanks for the help btw.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 01/03/12 13:50
Created 12 anys ago at 01/03/12 13:48

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Practice still going well.
This morning there were bits of fuzziness and tension , I didnt feel bad as such, just more confused/frustrated, and often turning my tension to whats going on in my conventional life (sort of blaming it, even though I could feel great and be thinking its because of conventional life as well, so really its just a mind trick), it only lasted a few hours.
Anyway the reason Im pointing that out is because Id imagine this phase would probably have been much more intense a few weeks ago, and I would have been genuinely irritated.

Anyway I did an hour and 20 mins today.Its taking me a bit longer sometimes to hit that Jhana state, actually todays session took me a while to get "off the ground", at least a half an hour of falling back into thought. Patience is a virtue, I would say by 40 mins I was going deep and highly concentrated.
I moved on into insight practice, and then through the cycles. Im noticing less "random" fear arising the last session or 2.
As for fruition, I really dont know, Im inconclusive, yes , there are moments near the very end where it really feels like there is NOTHING , almost falling out of consciousness, yet not tired, before I may have labeled that just a case of me losing my attention, but now Im starting to have seconds thoughts.
The reason being , one of those moments was definitely happening and I didn't realise it, because suddenly I opened my eyes and I realised straight away I hadnt been focusing on ANYTHING.

Now all that said, maybe thats just the mind wandering.
If I was to describe it, I would have to say, its like daydreaming about absolutely nothing. You know when you're daydreaming, you dont realise you are daydreaming, but straight after you know what you were daydreaming about, whereas in this situation straight after you DONT know what you were day dreaming.


Anyway more practice will clear that part up for definite, I could even see an improvement in that session in terms of honing in on whats going on.

As the day progressed, after that session I found myself going naturally deeper again, and this morning was forgotten about.

This log is helping too just to lay it all out, Im going to do another hour in a while. The beauty of all this, and this has been the case for months now, is the little amount of sleep you need. That said, Id have to question how healthy that is for the body, after all you do hear people that sleep less dont live as long. Although I really dont have a clue what Im talking about when it comes to that end of things.

Conventional fear is slowly falling I think too, then again Im due a testing situation.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 02/03/12 05:04
Created 12 anys ago at 02/03/12 05:04

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
This mornings sit started off great, hit very clear awake states within 10 minutes, and even building up to that there was very little effort required to keep the concentration. Morning is definitely a good time. I tried another one again last night, and again, I just kept turning off. Theres no point in even bother trying when you are sleepy. I wasnt even that sleepy but having done alot of exercise that day and having got up quite early I knew my body would just start turning off.

Back to this morning, first 25 mins were fanastic, extremely relaxed concentrated state, but then due to noise outside, and the fact that it wouldnt stop everything fell apart. I was attempting to concentrate on the three characteristics, and I was even trying to use the noise if you get me, trying to observe it directly, but unfortuntaly a constant dog barking and then a loud drill that kept coming on and off was enough for me to give upemoticon

I'll go back again later, quite busy today.
I need to boost my effort in concentration during the rest of my day as well. Often it happens naturally, I find myself very empty and just looking around at everything etc, noticing the bodily sensations,especially around the feet, especially if Im walking down street or something, but its not proper applied concentration.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 05/03/12 09:00
Created 12 anys ago at 05/03/12 09:00

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Practice has been fairly solid, Im hitting those high alertness states quicker and quicker, and am finding myself sitting for longer.
As for fruition, Im starting to think not alright. Bar momentary losses of "whats going on", I dont think Im hitting that kind of thing for any extended periods (even though I know time becomes irrelevant, I would still surely know afterwards that I had been experiencing it for a while), at the moment those experiences only last split seconds, maybe slightly longer.

Even though , it obviously interests me as I keep bringing it up, its still not my main concern.

The effects of this practice in general is tremendous, with the exception of today every other day has been spent with longer and longer periods of emptiness , investigation, sense experience, and low tension. Im still unsure as to what to label whats going on today, I guess "normal" would be the word, but not completely satisfied, and even sometimes slightly annoyed.


Is this a period of dark night? I dont know. There is just simply more tension arising today than usually.

I havent done a session today, but did spend some time just concentrating on the senses as I walked through the town.
I also spend as much time as possible experiencing sounds and vision with an acknowledgement that that experience can ONLY be going on in my head. This isnt mystical, everything I see is an interpretation with the tools/instruments on this body. By acknowledging and understanding this, it helps cut out what the sound/vision is representing, and helps better to see that it is simply a sound/vision. Just to clarify though, I only do this for meditation purposes, I cant keep something like this going whenever I want. I have to make a conscious effort to do it.

Im losing my discipline when it comes to finding tension, unless its during a sit. I need to get back to that, i.e. the very thing I started doing when I came here first.

I give this as much time as I possibly can, Im always thinking about it and mostly enjoying it, but that doesnt always mean im doing any investigation, thats where serious discipline is required.
Im fine during a formal session, so its about improving on that.

This tends to change so much too that I often find myself reserved about writing things in case my experience is completely different later on. Oh well!
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 07/03/12 08:42
Created 12 anys ago at 07/03/12 08:31

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Well theres no point in me constantly repeating what practice I did if its the same thing, so Ill also use this thread to get out my thoughts on this general.

The last 2 days Ive upped my practice. 2 sessions two days ago, 3 sessions yesterday. By the 3rd one yesterday I was almost instantly in a jhana state. All averaging at about 1hour to 1hr 25 each

My practice now is consistence, basically , start with the breath, and keep focus on the breath for as long as possible until my awareness naturally widens to the whole body and surroundings, I then allow insight practice and investigation to develop when im ready, this is no set time, just when it starts to happen I direct my focus towards it, this can be a gradual thing. It can get pretty intense at times.

Im not sure how disciplined I am in terms of investigation, regarding suffering/tension I spot that quite well, and watch it as it comes and goes, regarding self, I try and spot what Im assuming "I" am, just physical feelings, this also fades in and out. And try and notice my bodily senses and their impermanence, whether the last bit there is actual investigation or not Im not sure.


I constantly get "this is it" moments, I really felt like I hit one on my second session yesterday in terms of fruition, but I dont know. However since then,it feels like my insight into the illusory self has been cemented a bit more, and it feels like im nearly always in a jhana like state.

Its been very strong the last 24 hours. However, it seems that can often happen after a long session.

Ill admit Im becoming a bit of a victim of the map, I still cant tell whether I got path or not, or maybe the past 24 hours I have I dont know. It really shouldnt matter, because practice and investigation doesnt change either way.

Im also thinking that what happened me 11 months ago cant be just labeled as A+P even if its not stream entry. Theres no way something like that never really went away could be just an experience that came and went. Unless Im really underestimating someones first A+P event.
Dont get me wrong, its not like Im trying to prove to myself its something more than it is, other than burning curiosity Im not too hung up on it , I just really really would love to know how its seen on various maps thats all.


Anyway, Im going to continue practice, try and observe and investigate as much as I can. If I havent hit SE yet, I am DAMN close, I have to be. Even just sitting here holding a cup of coffee, it feels like no one is holding it, although those kind of feelings can still arise quiet strongly after a good bout of concentration meditation.

We'll see! Either way, whatever it is im doing, I want more of it, and I want to keep doing it! This honesty thing is addictive emoticon

I cant foresee myself being able to go on a retreat, for lots of reasons, time being the main one, but Im lucky that Im setting up a business and its starting small, so at the moment I have more time in the day than your average 9 to 5er. So Im considering putting a whole day aside and really trying to nail whatever it is Im trying to nail!

Any feedback so far would be great!emoticon
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 14/05/12 19:39
Created 12 anys ago at 14/05/12 19:31

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Although my practice and interest has only been growing stronger i let this thread slip away.
Inspired by Tommy Ms thread Im going to start to speak in my own language from now on. No point in spending more time trying to line up my experience with language and possibly getting it wrong when I have my own language to work off!!emoticon

My practice has been going well. It consists of any form of investigation I can possibly do whenever I think of it!!

- 45 minute sit daily, sometimes twice, concentration that I allow to turn into insight (3 Cs), often still on the breath
And the rest of my day?
- I try and observe that everything Im seeing is just that , something Im seeing, images, colours etc, only representations.
- I try to meditate to the fact that everything happens in my head, my whole field of vision can only be in my head, same with sounds etc (just another attempt really at trying to understand my experience)
- I try as often as I can to look out for subtle tension coming and going.
- I Investigate my 'points to note' when they arise, which ill list below.
- I constantly try to see what experience is not that feeling of "I"/consciousness/aliveness.
- I try and experience the fact that my sensations are not my body, and try and break down the presumptions that the sensations translate to, this is difficult to do,but keeps my general focus and awareness up
- if I find myself in jhana like high focus breath naturally during the day, I try and harness it more.

Points to note: These are a list of parts of my life where I experience suffering or have recently overcome it completely, I cant overemphasise how subtle this stuff is, for alot of my day I am very content and at peace, its just these tiny tiny things Im still picking at, or have succesfully overcome.

Suffering/Thought/tension:

1. First thing in the morning, a thought or two can tend to induce stomach suffering - nearly gone but still happens some mornings
2. Flatmate who irritates me - nearly 100% gone, has been improving over the last 6 months, but since March pretty much no irritation or suffering has arisen around him, I knew that always my own problem
3. An egoic reaction/personally offended - almost nearly gone but I would still say there is stuff that could bring it out that I just havent explored yet.
4. During meditation/restlessness/tension - can sit with no urge to get up for 45 mins, I used to get an urge after about 15/20 mins and it would subside, however the 45 minute one is still disappointing, and my examining of it has been weak

5. Thoughts anger about things not being a certain way in my house etc - pretty much gone, dont care now,
6. Thoughts in general not inducing suffering, but running commentry in general - definitely subsiding throughout my day, this is definitely thanks to the concentration techniques I presume, I realized I had made huge progress when I was jogging the other day (usually there is a constant stream of loud thoughts when I jog for some reason), and after 45 mins I had realized I had been totally aware and focused without even trying.
7. Disappointment after a fear experience - completely gone
8. Being interrupted and having to hold a conversation while "in the zone" (whether its because Im working quietly, watching a movie, doing somthing)- very subtle, not gone yet, and if I spend a long day on my own , if that gets interrupted (like a friend coming home or whatever), some small tension arises for a few minutes

Fear:
1. Public Speaking situations - untested, but last one somewhat subsided
2. Making uncomfortable cold calls - subsiding ALOT, a tiny amount before and during, but nothing like in the past, and definitely nothing that could be possibly noticed externally I would imagine. Also before, the thought of this earlier in the day would induce a tiny amount, but that thought now doesnt have any physical effect on me
3. Talking to absolute strangers/awkwardness - I would say 99% gone
4. Alot of untested stuff also so Im definitely not going to get too overconfident.

Depression
1. Feeling of random dark gloominess - rarely happens, and only lasts a very short period of time, generally its difficult to even find a physcical feeling associated with it, very eye opening because in the past I never I knew I was experiencing this, but now in hindsight, I think I may have been depressed quite alot in the past few years and just sort of didnt take it as seriously as I should have.
2. Life/conventional situation getting me down/low motivation - I started a thread in Motivation/Results as a result of this so its obviously not gone, and something new that I probably need to examine
3. Not being in the mood for talking to people - mostly gone, but not fully, probably worth mentioning that I mean this in terms of a depressive way, ive no issue with simply not wanting to talk to someone because Im busy etc.

I genuinely believe good eating habits, more exercise combined with an even closer examination (not easy in this state) could help a huge deal with the depression symptoms, the rare times they do occur.

There is some very negative stuff in this thread, but all it does is serve to highlight how negative I obviously WAS.
I may as well finish on a high note:

I experience tremendous emptiness alot of the time, obviously not all the time by any means, I know there is definitely something even better though, because from time to time I touch on a "this is a feeling like Ive just won the lotto while on the best holiday of my life" feeling, even for just a few seconds, complete and total joy/love/whatever.
I can see now there is something to work towards. My clarity , both visually , and in terms of mind is cleaning up, and getting better and better. While its not linear by any means , there is definitely progress, and I genuinely think whatever I hit late March had an abiding effect.

My sits for the most part are solid, very high concentration, but I do get bored after about 45 mins, Im not sure why. Its ironic, my sits were probably more difficult 3/4 months ago yet I was able to do what would seem like marathon sits (for me), like 1h35m, even punching to 2hours (bare in mind Ive little meditation experience). So I find it ironic that that ability has subsided despite having way better natural concentration and much much more clarity and peace, possibly due to laziness or arrogance, i.e overconfidence at my own ability to sit and then just wrapping it up at 45 mins for the sake of it.

Its something Ill investigate. ill try post more in this log about my actual practice too.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 15/05/12 10:35
Created 12 anys ago at 15/05/12 10:31

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Another 45 minute session earlier,

I start out with intention of full concentration, I then tend to make a conscious effort to begin investigating after aprox 25 mins.

Session today was very very still from an early stage, sometimes I dont even bother investigating and just sit with it, probably not a good habit. But Im sure it does help my focus. An issue I seem to run into is my memory seems to be playing tricks on me, I struggled once or twice with trying to even remember all three characteristics I was supposed to be looking at (during the sit that is), which is a little crazy, I would think of 2 and not be able to think of the third, we're talking about 3 words here, very strange.
Actually from time to time I do wonder if this is having a mild detrimental effect overall on my memory, but I think its fine tbh,.

I got bored again after 45 mins, it seems irrestistable , alot of energy starts creeping in and even though Im happy to stay sitting for a long time after, I still feel the complete and overwhelming urge to stretch, open my eyes, and just chill out, and ponder. I need to do better on that end of things.

The session has left with me with a very nice "afterglow" for the day.
I realized in the past few weeks that i was turning "no self" into dogma so I began to ease back on that a little, and simply try and see what the feeling of aliveness/consciousness actually is compare to the body. I find the central "me"/ownership element of my existence is really really disappearing into oblivion, its increasingly hard to see any "me" , but it feels like there is this overall feeling of "I" or consciousness that spreads far beyond this body, I dont say this as some sort of insight claim, more just what it experientially feels like , and almost as if this body is just an experience of that. Im just thinking out loud here, and its also very subtle stuff, my main aim is try and see my experience with as much clarity as possible. But its very pleasant at the same time.
Regarding points of suffering, there has been next to none today (im sure there has been plenty of subtle tensions which Ive ignored), there was one incident where a comment was made about something, that left a very mild "hot" feeling of being annoyed, but it was mild enough that I was examining it within seconds as oppose to fueling the reaction to it with thought.

Regarding what I believe to be cessations, Im pretty sure Im hitting them during many of my sits, but not all my any means, and sometimes I think they may be more subtle than other times.
It seems like it always has to be precluded by a very very very subtle daydream, even just a second or two long before the cut off.
Can anyone relate to this? If its the case it would make sense as to why I read stuff here about trying too hard to hit it.
Its like I try , try , try , try , split second distraction , then blip, cut off without realizing it, then a "was that it?", usually a relaxing feeling after, but again, very subtle, and I wonder am I just looking out for that feeling because I believe I hit a cessation.

All in all, some nice work today, and Ill do another session later, Ill attempt to do 1 hour, and really closely examine whats happening after 40 mins.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 17/05/12 09:04
Created 12 anys ago at 17/05/12 08:57

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
2 days ago after the last post I did 50 mins of concentration -> insight.

That evening, for the first time in months, I experienced that feeling of inferiority/low self esteem when I bumped into an old friend, it didnt last long,but was interesting to see that another point of suffering that I thought was long gone had the ability to bring itself up. I would say by the end of our conversation it had turned entirely into a case of me examining the feeling more than anything.

I then ran into a gloomy view on things for a while. Strange, again, this lasted for about 2/3 hours. Very very very subtle. So subtle that it usually takes something to trigger it, this was gone by the evening.
Even the first bit of pointless irritation came up for a few minutes during this. Was this a mini dark night episode ? Not sure.

The next day/morning I was completely suffering-free. I find first thing in the morning a great time to check what kind of thoughts arise, and if they do, how they are affecting me. Usually as soon as I get up, most of that potential weakness is gone.
So generally if im absolutely clear first thing in the morning I know progress is being made. I even sat up for a while , while in bed and did some concentration exercise.

I did another 55 min sit yesterday, but I think Im after realizing that my concentration abilities have actually been quite crap up to now. I was definitely getting ahead of myself I think. When concentrating on the breath, very very subtle background thoughts that barely take up any attention and that come and go within seconds have been arising, and Ive sort of settled with that. But from now on, Im gonna be a bit tougher on myself, and attempt to force an even more stable clear concentration.
My target is full breaths with NO thoughts, not even extremely subtle background flashes for split seconds. Note, thats a target ,not what I expect to be doing immediately.
Either way, for the most part, I tend not to go into a complete trail of thoughts anymore (not that Im invincible from that by any mean), but that doesnt mean my concentration cant be improved 10 fold.

Improving this is not just good for practice in this area, but I can see how its just good for functioning better in conventional life, ie getting stuff done.

Even after one sit of trying this, yesterday evening I was even beginning to feel like I was attaining new insight, so Im really starting to appreciate the importance of keeping your concentration abilities to the utmost highest standard, even if you are looking to do other forms of investigating as well.

Im thinking also of using walking meditation as another tool.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 18/05/12 07:33
Created 12 anys ago at 18/05/12 07:27

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
I need to sort out the "ahh this feels good" vs proper investigation and meditation. I did 2 walking sessions in the past 2 days.
While they are definitely excellent , there is definitely alot more distraction and less internal focus on the tiny tensions.
But Im definitely going to continue them, not as a replacement, but as an add on. Basically instead of making small driving trips Im walking instead (weather permitting).
When walking, I try and notice every sensation arising, including my attention back to the breath, I think it would be too difficult right now to keep focus on only breath for now during these.
I get very absorbed in the reality around me, but the sensations around my feet tend to take up most of my attention. Ive been paying attention to sensations from feet to tension in the stomach to the feeling of clothes rubbing off to wind, to whatever thought arises and goes away again. I constantly try and observe the impermanent nature of all these sensations. I also try and kill my assumption that they are happening TO my body, i.e. kill the assumption of the body and try just experience the sensations as they are are.

I feel mostly very peaceful doing this all this during a walk, and that can actually make me get somewhat lazy after a while. This laziness then tends to fall into a stream of thought, even if Im happy. But I can see how after a few minutes that can end up falling into a stream of slight tension.

It really is a battle of direct experience vs mind.

Another good way of finding tension is when Im walking past a big group of people in a quiet area, or another one being , if im walking in a quiet area and I see someone approaching against me in the distance, I try and examine does even the tinyest most subtle tensions arise as they come closer and walk past me.

Ive dropped the "no doer" investigation just for a little while, Ive been doing that since day over a year ago, and I need to give it a rest and stop it from being complete dogma.

Ill do another proper sit later on.


Getting back to Dho language, I would love to be able to diagnose myself in terms of MCTB or something, unfortunately I think Ive come here from such a different angle Im starting to think its impossible.

Sometimes I even read stuff from 4th pathers that I can relate to. Im not suggesting for a second that I beleive thats where Im at, more just highlighting my uncertainty as to where Im at.
I am very very confident Ive hit first path though in the past 2/3 months. Just particular stuff that changed for me hasnt went away, suffering rolling away very quick, no attempt to resist something that happened already, what I believe to cessations, even if they arent as common as what tends to be described here.

Regarding suffering and my progress there, well I have my list a few posts ago of my points of suffering, Ill update them from time to time.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 18/05/12 19:57
Created 12 anys ago at 18/05/12 19:54

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Another interesting day,
2 walking sessions as I had to get a few things done and said I would walk instead of drive to the locations.
And one small sit later on.
I probably need to get refocused in terms of planned sits, and timing etc.

Today throughout the day I really felt I was hitting on newer levels of emptiness and peace, especially after the 2 walking spells.
But yet ironically stuff can come up with a bit of outside influence, i.e. I tend to constantly lure myself into a false sense of security, even when I know im doing it.

Everything was great until this evening, when I was playing football with my nephew and it seemed like kids were laughing at him from a distance about something, it actually wasnt the case it turned out, but I could see his spark suddenly drop when he thought it was the case and whatever that did to me Im not sure, but it left a sinking feeling, and a gloomy feeling even as I went back inside to the family etc. Its strange, once that feeling hits , there is the capability for other stuff to rise up, and a thought arises then "who am I kidding? This , this , this isnt even dealt with, Im still bla, bla, etc , etc".

This can all happen in a short span, and its still very detached compare to what it would have even been a few months ago,but is unpleasant nonetheless, I try my hardest to just sit and examine the sensations of it.

The ridiculous part is I may have been projecting that "spark dropping" in my nephew, possibly something I completely made up in my own mind due to making a presumption that thats how I would have felt in the past.

I know thats very strange, detailed , and almost me trying to sound dramatic, but its just an account.

I was a little tired for the rest of the day, but I have began to try and use every opportunity possible to investigate.
Most of my tension , when its noticeable is in the stomach. I feel compelled to really get a closer look at that for the next few weeks.
Im not sure if the likes of Adyashanti is popular around here, personally I really really resonate with the way he describes how this stuff pans out, he goes into such specific subtle detail and yet I find myself saying "yyeaaaa thats it".

But theres one thing Id be interested in knowing in terms of his lingo vs whats thought here. When he speaks of "awakened in the head , the gut and the heart", he seems to really emphasize almost in a literal way. And I know he doesnt just say spiritual stuff for the sake of it, he literally means its like an unclenching in your gut. But Id be interested in finding out what insight or attainment that may be on a more technical level. It feels like I have to free the "gut". As ridiculous as that may sound.

Its a shame these posts have to sound so negative, when I would consider my progress and levels of personal liberation at points that Ive never reached in the past. But I guess thats boring to write about.


As for my practice today, it was all about finding the arising of tension, and noticing other sensations with that.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 18/05/12 20:03
Created 12 anys ago at 18/05/12 20:03

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Maybe its time to start writing a blog instead of using this as an opinion spot. But something else came to mind there, and I felt the need to write it, a sort of light bulb moment.

When I feel great, when there is no tension, when fear is at an all time low, when Im calm, cool, empty, deep, whatever, I think I start to feel hope. And thats something I didnt realise I was doing, but basically when things are good, I say to myself "Great , things are going to be excellent, things are going to turn out great for me in the future because Im like this".

And then the same for vice versa, if there is more tension or hints of depression, etc etc I look to the future negatively.

I didnt realize I was doing this, it was taking away from my attempt at direct focus on experience, and it was probably contributing to a lack of equanimity and 'let downs'. From now on Im going to try catch myself every time a thought pops up like that, and just watch the thought instead of indulging in it.
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Russell , modificat fa 12 anys at 19/05/12 10:31
Created 12 anys ago at 19/05/12 10:31

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 92 Data d'incorporació: 19/10/11 Publicacions recents
That is exactly what this practice is about. That is a very profound insight when directly experienced. So simple in theory, yet amazing when you finally have that lightbulb moment on stuff like that. Good work.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 21/05/12 10:10
Created 12 anys ago at 21/05/12 07:29

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Thanks Russel,
Although I must admit, its probably not 100% experienced and still only theoretical alot of the time, even if there is alot of clarity and emptiness.

Regarding practice...

I did quite alot yesterday,
1 sit for 50 mins,
1 walk on the way back from a jog
another walk for about 45 mins
and another sit last night for 50 mins.

plus whenever it crosses my mind the rest of the time. The issue is while I spend alot of my time THINKING about this stuff, its not always practice, sometimes Im just sitting there pondering it and not investigating.

Regarding the quality of these, its time I started paying alot more attention to exactly whats going on during practice, I mean straight afterwards that is, I tend to largely forget , its usually a combination of concentration leading in deeper jhanas/emptiness ( I need to understand the jhanas more specifically), leading into an attempt at find the three characteristics (my discipline in this area needs to be improved, it nearly feels like it was more solid a few months ago than it is now, and then trying to note it as I go through a cycle.
I dont always hit a cessation, and if I do , sometimes they are times I wouldnt quite expect it, like earlier on in a sit,maybe after 20 mins, while doing concentrating on the breath.

This leads me to think that alot of these arent actually cessations at all, moreso just random cut offs.

Another thing I notice with my concentration is that it starts off very well, first 10 mins is usually clean breath, with hardly any thought. But as time progresses I tend to slip away.

I rarely fully lose track, i.e. get completely lost in a train of thought, if I do it doesnt last more than a few seconds, unless its near the end after about 50 mins , and impatience is growing.
However contradictory to all this, there are periods during a sit when I am in very high concentration and alertness as well.

Last nights session however was more 'rough', I noticed I was losing track alot more,and there more discomfort (relatively*),and just general desire to wrap it up, I investigated all these sensations as much as possible, often a sign that im about to go off focus is that instead of fully 100% concentrating on breath, there is moreso an image of me concentrating on breath, almost like a relaxing day dream of what Im doing, rather than giving it complete focus. So ive started trying to use that as a gentle reminder.

My walking practice is all investigation of the three characteristics, but for some reason my attention seems to mostly be towards impermanence of sensations.


*all this is relative to my what I know I can do ,so discomfort now may involve me moving and shoving around, but compare to discomfort as I would have described it even 4/5 months ago, it is actually great.

Regarding my points of suffering, I noticed a discomfort in the stomach (its always the stomach), when I was watching a movie last night, coming towards the end, a friend arrived home of whom i hadnt seen in a few days. I knew he'd probably be in the mood for a conversation. I never let this translate externally, but it was interesting that it still rose up. However, again though, while not linear in progress, this stuff is less intense all the time, and still fading slowly.

Regarding fear, I have yet to get myself into any tests with the points I listed above, since I wrote them. However I did go to a house party at the weekend, and noticed my biggest lull in fear yet when talking to all sorts of random strangers.


Another issue Im having is motivation regarding my life. I posted about it in a thread in 'motivation and results'. But perhaps its simply not a discussion for Dho, reason being, it wouldnt take much for that to be sparked up again. A good example being I am hoping for a call that could mean the business really taking off. If that happens I will genuinely feel excited and enthusiastic again so maybe I need to stop associating with practice and enlightenment etc.
Im just scared that I might turn around and realize that in 5/10 years time I used all this as an excuse not to bother trying to succeed in my personal life. Yet ironically , even knowing this, Im still not pushing myself, in other words, im a lazy git emoticon


One final thing, while Im not hung up on it by any means, and it rarely does consume my thoughts, I would still love to be able to place my attainments/experience on a map of some sort. It just seems to make targets, goals, not to mention communication of this a little easier. I know its all about practice, and really it doesnt matter, but still it would be nice, I realized this last night when I was on the Kenneth Folk forum, and thought to myself that I would have to explain thoroughly where I was at and make some SE claim or something before being able to join in comfortably with the conversation.
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modificat fa 12 anys at 22/05/12 01:05
Created 12 anys ago at 22/05/12 00:57

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 346 Data d'incorporació: 18/09/11 Publicacions recents
wylo .:

One final thing, while Im not hung up on it by any means, and it rarely does consume my thoughts, I would still love to be able to place my attainments/experience on a map of some sort. .


Here is a very different but equally authentic map, of progression of insight for the blogger 'Thusness', who has some deep insights...
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.ca/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

This is a quote from a forum post by the same indvidual that I tend to agree with as well...

"...there exist a predictable relationship between the 'mental object to be de-constructed' and 'the experiences and realizations'... As a general guideline,

1. If you de-construct the subjective pole, you will be led to the experience of No-Mind.

2. If you de-construct the objective pole, you will be led to the experience of One-Mind.

3. If you go through a process of de-constructing prepositional phrases like "in/out" "inside/outside" "into/onto," "within/without" "here/there", you will dissolve the illusionary nature of locality and time.

4. If you simply go through the process of self-enquiry by disassociation and elimination without clearly understanding the non-inherent and dependent originated nature of phenomena, you will be led to the experience of “I AMness”.


Note the difference in language: What we call 'stream entry' or first path on these forums is what Thusness would call 'No-Mind'.

If we think of things in terms of the subject-object split. Then Stream Entry in the Noting / Vipassana maps is an insight into the reduction of the subject into its sensory components. Or in other words it is an insight into how the subject is made up of objective components.

As an aside, I don't think Noting - Vipassana really does anything to deconstruct the object side of the subject / object duality. Noting also does something weird with attention and doesn't result in the calm 'presence'.

Maybe some other spiritual traditions start off by through dissolving the objective side of reality and viewing it as subjective, what Thusness calls 'one mind'.

If I recall correctly you had your initial insight through self enquiry / direct pointing. So maybe your initial closer experientially is closer to what is described as the 'I AM' realization, and now moving closer to non-duality. And so maybe your progress will more closely mirror the one described in his maps than the MCTB.

Another language difference is that Thusness' uses the word Annta / No Self to describe something that is more akin to the culmination of the non-dual phase with a complete dropping away of the subject / object division. Rather than the complete discontinuity we talk about here as path / frution resulting in Stream Entry. He is talking about Annata in terms of a fully non-dual realization where subject and object are the same.

The stuff he calls emptiness is about breaking down the aggregates even further, but lets not worry about that for now.

Note: The preceding is merely my opinion. If this stuff is confusing or inaccurate don't worry about it too much, just know that there are many paths to unfolding. And it is debatable whether the stuff with talk about on DhO as paths corresponds to the paths described in the suttas.

In the end it probably doesn't really matter too much what aspect of aggregated experience of reality is deconstructed first, the key is to continue investigating and deconstructing these things with sincere intent till these 'aggregates' or 'illusions' are completely seen through, and no longer grasped at by the mind.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 22/05/12 06:48
Created 12 anys ago at 22/05/12 06:38

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
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An Eternal Now, modificat fa 12 anys at 22/05/12 09:17
Created 12 anys ago at 22/05/12 09:16

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 638 Data d'incorporació: 15/09/09 Publicacions recents
wylo .:

Note the difference in language: What we call 'stream entry' or first path on these forums is what Thusness would call 'No-Mind'.
Not exactly, no-mind is an experience, it is like PCE, it can be a mere peak experience. Even someone at One Mind may have occasional glimpses of no-mind. Someone with no practice history may also occassionally bump into some similar experience. Some people cultivate No-Mind but it does not mean they had any breakthrough insight or realization. To them, the deconstruction happens by dissolving all sense of self/Self but there is no "realization". It is the realization of anatta that in my understanding is more related to stream entry.

A clearer delination of experience, realization, view, etc can be found this article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html

However this is obviously different from say, MCTB's definition of stream entry, which is defined as an event where everything blips out of existence. This definition does not really line up with the suttas*, does not line up with all Theravada teachers (e.g. Thai forest traditions don't talk about this as in anyway important) but is particular to some Burmese traditions and maps (more info: http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/447451 ).

*Sutta definition of four paths are solely in terms of the ten fetter models, the first three fetters being eliminated are self-view, sceptical doubts, and attachment to rites and rituals
Another language difference is that Thusness' uses the word Annta / No Self to describe something that is more akin to the culmination of the non-dual phase with a complete dropping away of the subject / object division. Rather than the complete discontinuity we talk about here as path / frution resulting in Stream Entry. He is talking about Annata in terms of a fully non-dual realization where subject and object are the same.
Yes, it is not the discontinuity in MCTB.

However, Anatta realization is also not just non-dual realization, which is also present in Thusness Stage 4.
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An Eternal Now, modificat fa 12 anys at 22/05/12 09:25
Created 12 anys ago at 22/05/12 09:25

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 638 Data d'incorporació: 15/09/09 Publicacions recents
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modificat fa 12 anys at 23/05/12 00:18
Created 12 anys ago at 23/05/12 00:03

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 346 Data d'incorporació: 18/09/11 Publicacions recents
Would you mind elaborating on deconstructing the object side of the subject? Im a little confused about that.
What Im getting from your post is that subject would mean "human body" for instance, and object would mean sensory components, like tension, sensations, feelings, etc. How do I deconstruct those "objects"?


By object I mean anything that you perceive to be 'outside' of your 'self'.

For most people's day to day experience of reality there is a seperation between the inside and outside. They see both the watcher and the watched being inherently existing and real.

This is an example of the subject object split, experienced in terms of the ghost inside the machine, or soul. (common for people without spiritual attainments)


Everything in neuroscience suggests that this split is not real, i.e. that the experience results from neurons in the brain and we don't really have a way of knowing what is real and what isn't aside from that.

However this sort of scientific / intellectual understanding doesn't result in an experiential seeing through. Even an intellectual understanding of non-dualism and emptiness is pretty useless without practice.

Spiritual realization / enlightenment is fundamentally about seeing through the dualism to some extent on an experiential level.

As the the views of separation and and inherently existing attribues of reality are let go via insight, there is a corresponding reduction in grasping for these things, which in turn leads to a decrease in suffering.

The subjective experiences for the intermediate steps of letting go will be different depending on the angle from which the dualistic problem is attacked. This is what Thusness is talking about with the poles.

Anyways in terms of deconstruction the experience in practical terms you can do whatever works for you.

I reccomend MCTB style Vipassana becasue it worked for me, but also because you will be able to get help in the intermediate stages from people who have done gone through the same path in the pragmatic dharma community online. (eg DhO, Shinzen Young, Ken Folk etc.)

But AEN has strong insights, and he has helped point me in the right direction with my practice in the past. So you wont go wrong following that path either.

AEN:
It is the realization of anatta that in my understanding is more related to stream entry.


Don't want to sidetrack Wylo's practice thread, but read through that long article, and your model makes more sense now...

Thusness' Annata is similar to but different from the realization resulting from the Vipassana path.

Noting works by tuning attention in a way that creates interference patterns in the constant pinging between subject <-> object. However burmese style vipassana alone does not result sensory clarity (meaning the pinging is still going on, just that after repeated cycles of interference, any sort of the view of an inherent self is lost, so it is annata in some sense).

However, Anatta in yours/Thusness's model implies non-duality and sensory clarity already attained.

In my experience, noting alone did not result in such sensory clarity. After switching from noting to present moment awareness type practice, the most noticable thing was a very clear difference in sensory clarity, in the visual field the difference was like going from watching a standard definition TV to High Definition.

Implicit in this was centrelessness and no inherently existing self.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 23/05/12 06:45
Created 12 anys ago at 23/05/12 06:43

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
D Z:


By object I mean anything that you perceive to be 'outside' of your 'self'.

For most people's day to day experience of reality there is a seperation between the inside and outside. They see both the watcher and the watched being inherently existing and real.

This is an example of the subject object split, experienced in terms of the ghost inside the machine, or soul. (common for people without spiritual attainments)


Everything in neuroscience suggests that this split is not real, i.e. that the experience results from neurons in the brain and we don't really have a way of knowing what is real and what isn't aside from that.


Thanks for clearing that up, I beleive I may have doing something along these lines already, but without structure, or solid labelling of the practice.
Having read AENs link, I think I can definitely relate to that path more, with the exception of experiencing subtle progress of insight cycles, however, sometimes I wonder did I make that stuff up, by trying hard to fit it in with MCTBs map.
Its just those cycles made alot of sense to me at times, in terms of moving through dark night, up to equanimity and then falling back.

Cheers
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 23/05/12 08:49
Created 12 anys ago at 23/05/12 07:10

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
An Eternal Now:
You had some experience, it is the I AM experience but not the unshakeable realization.

However these posts in 2008 by Thusness might be quite relevant for you:


Hi AEN, I read the link you left DZ, and I have to say, it really excited me , because I feel you have pointed out where I may be at, where I may be still clinging etc and why. Do you mind if I ask a favour, ill understand if its too much hassle because this post is pretty long , but is it possible you could attempt to diagnose me to an extent, and maybe just double check my practice that ive laid out at the end to see if Im at least on the right track. I would hate to think Im overemphasising one thing, and making no progress elsewhere as a result etc.

The post is long, but all the quotes are your own words so theres probably no need to read them properly if you get me.
Any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Im also aware that I may sound very overconfident here when I say "yep I can relate to this, that , etc". But to constantly play down my day to day experience doesnt serve as any use, because people then tend to advise you of things you already know.

On the flip side, Im not typing this to have my experiences validated or confirmed, Ive little interest in trying to prove where im 'at', the only thing that interests me is getting an honest assessment and being given the most optimum practice advice I can possibly get.
So shoot me down please if you feel Im getting ahead of myself regarding realizations claims.

Before I get quoting, here is brief summary of my experience to date...

- seperation between "me" and another object has taken a huge hit, I see no distance now between me and an object, however like mentioned in your post, there is still that clinging to a source.
- I cant self reflect anymore. its empty, if I ever do its when Im writing here about myself or talking to someone, when on my own this self reflection is next to impossible, even at times when looking in the mirror, however that isnt to claim that there isnt identification, attachment, and clinging going on by any means.
- that wow factor you talk of happens quite a bit when looking at nature, and Im at peace/empty most of the time, I know it can be FAR more intense than how im experiencing it at present because Ive touched on it.
- still a hint of an experiencer , even if its ridiculously subtle.
- bliss happens alot, not all the time.
- psychological fear and inhibitions still present but always fading, its taking more and more to bring it out. But for instance, today I have to make a call I dont want to make , and there is an inhibition about it, sort of putting it off. Its very sublte but remains there.



EXPERIENCE:

1. Pure Presence/Witness

In daily life, one may sense this as a background witnessing presence, a space-like awareness in the background of things. It is felt to be something stable and unchanging though we often lose sight of it due to fixation on the contents of experience or thoughts (like focusing on the drawing and losing sight of the canvas).

- I believe i first hit this a year ago, and was probably in denial that I Was losing sight of it, but since beginning more intense practice from 6 months ago onwards I believe it is now stable. If its what Im thinking, its the core of my perceptual shift from April 2011, Id call it an indescribable emptiness that for the most part does not go away, and with good concentration practice and a deepening of insight, becomes more and more prominent.

2. Impersonality


-I cant say I ever thought anything was being controlled by a higher intelligence etc, but have definitely experienced no personal doer alot, and still do quite alot, especially if its paid attention to. Sometimes I pay attention to it alot for the sake of self inquiry. And sometimes its very natural and obvious (walking down the street is usually when its most noticeable)

3.Non-duel into One mind.
Where subject and object division collapsed into a single seamless experience of one Naked Awareness.

- I have good reason to think that is what happened me in March, 2 months on now, and while the intensity of the change has subsided, the core experience that DID change hasnt really went away .
4. No-Mind
Where even the naked Awareness is totally forgotten and dissolved into simply scenery, sound, arising thoughts and passing scent. This is the experience of Anatta, but not the realization of Anatta. Explained later.

- No, I cant say I have ever completely 100% dropped the experiencer even if at times I got very good glimpses of it. Im happy Ive had glimpses though because it keeps me grounded in terms of practice and what to aim for.


5. Sunyata (Emptiness)
It is when the 'self' is completely transcended into dependently originated activity. The play of dharma. There is a difference between this as a peak experience and the realization of emptiness/dependent origination. Explained later.

- Im not sure I fully understand this, so Im assuming I havent even had an experience of this.

REALIZATION:
I AM:
Self-realization is attained when there is a certainty of Being - an irrefutable and doubtless realization of Pure Presence-Existence or Consciousness or Beingness or Existence as being one's true identity. There is nothing clearer or undoubtable or irrefutable than You! Eureka

- I cant say i can relate to this, at least not until you talk of it being experience in a NDNCDIMOP way.
...not even any sense of self. It is all-pervasive and limitless, and is often described as being like a raindrop (sense of individuality) falling/dissolving into the ocean and fusing with the whole, and in this infinite oceanic Presence there can be no sense of individuality (especially when this phase of experience and realization has matured in terms of intensity and impersonality).

- I experience this quite alot alright, even right now as I type I would say this is the case on a subtle level.

Therefore even though the I AM experience is itself non-dual, one still clings to a dualistic view which therefore affects the way we perceive reality and the world. This dualistic framework distorts a non-dual experience by clinging or reifying that experience into an ultimate Background which is merely an image of a previous non-dual experience made into a Self, ultimate and unchanging.
...
Also, in my experience the I AM experience after the initial realization is tainted with a slight sense of personality and locality.
...
...
this level, the I AM is separated from Personality, and it is seen as if everything and everyone in the world share the same source or same space, like if a vase breaks, the air inside the vase completely merges with the air of the entire environment such that there is no sense of a division between an 'inside space' or an 'outside space', such that everything shares the same space, as an analogy of all-pervading presence.
...

- I can say with a fair degree of confidence that I can definitely relate to all this alright, both the vase analogy, but also the clinging, and sense of personality and locality (even if very subtle)

2. The Realization of Non-Dual, into One Mind

the first time I had it was when looking at a tree - at that point the sense of an observer suddenly disappeared into oblivion and there is just the amazing greenery, the colours, shapes, and movement of the tree swaying with the wind with an amazingly intense clarity and aliveness as if every leaves on the tree is crystal-like. This had a lot of 'Wow' factor to it because of the huge contrast between the Self-mode of experience and the No-Self mode of experience

...

My personal experience is that from day 1, more than a year ago this was the most noticeable thing about my whole shift in perception, simply looking at trees and nature, cars moving, people moving, and almost feeling a sweet clear warmth off it, the Wow was definitely there,
HOWEVER, this came and went alot as the year progressed, sometimes it went entirely, other times it was so intense that the wonder of it would genuinely excite me. Sadly , often the intense times were after strange circumstances like drinking alcohol the night before, or after going for a long long run.

That said,since March, most of my days are like a subtle version of your description, sometimes a little more boring but there, other times very intense, that leaves me not being sure whether Im still in 'experience' mode or if Ive actually attained the insight. I know it may seem arrogant and presumptious to beleive Im hitting these type of realizations so soon, but I can honestly say that a simple walk down the street, or sitting out the back garden is , for the most part, a very enjoyable experience for me now, i.e. if the settings are just right (warm, sunny, slightly breezy) I could sit there for quite a while watching a tree blowing in the wind., not to mention a sort of wonder at the fact that there is no real distance or seperation between "me" and the tree(or whatever). I know this is very airy fairy sounding stuff, but I have to honestly convey that it is the core of my experience now.


And even after seeing through this separation, you may have the realization of non-dual but still fall into substantial non-duality, or One Mind. Why? This is because though we have overcome the bond of duality, our view of reality is still seeing it as 'inherent'. Our view or framework has it that reality must have an inherent essence or substance to it, something permanent, independent, ultimate. So though everything is experienced without separation, the mind still can't overcome the idea of a source.

- This reminds me of my experience now, I can definitely relate to this clinging/trap/beleif.

It should be understood that even in this phase, at the peak of One Mind, one will have glimpses of No Mind as *temporary peak experiences* where the source/Awareness is temporarily forgotten into 'just the scenery, the taste, the sound, etc'. Very often, people try to master the state of No Mind without realizing anatta, thus no fundamental transformation of view can occur.

- I fear this is what I may be doing right now, also , im not sure if im ever hitting those temporary peak experiences.

3. Realization of Anatta:

Here, experience remains non-dual but without the view of 'everything is inside me/everything is an expression of ME/everything is ME' but 'there is just thoughts, sight, sound, taste' – just manifestation.

- Im not even sure if im hitting this in my peak experiences, maybe something very close , but it seems so damn certain that I dont think I could say with confidence that Im even having brief experiences of this.
the moment you say there is an ‘Actual World Here/Now’, or a Mind, or an Awareness, or a Presence that is constant throughout all experiences, that pervades and arise as all appearances, you have failed to see the 'no-linking', 'disjointed', 'unsupported' nature of manifestation – an insight which breaks a subtle clinging to an inherent ground, resulting in greater freedom.

- sounds like my experience alright ( the belief of the linking/supported/jointed nature that is)

When the sense of self/Self is sufficiently deconstructed, you also begin to experience everything as being a stream of activities that dependently originates. You directly see and experience everything as the activity/total exertion of the universe, i.e. the totality of causes and conditions giving rise to this moment of manifestation. Effectively, there is no self, no universe, no solidity, and all there ever is is an interdependent process of causes and conditions meeting to give rise to an activity, followed by another interaction that gives rise to more activities, ad infinitum.

- again, with a great degree of confidence I would say this is NOT my experience.

4. The Realization of Emptiness (Shunyata)

Having thoroughly read this your description of this realization, I can say that I havent attained, but do have at least an intellectual understanding of it, and perhaps from time to time had very subtle glimpses of it.

Implication of view:

Non-conceptuality does not mean non-attachment. For example when you realize the I AM, you cling to that pure non-conceptual beingness and consciousness as your true identity. You cling to that pure non-conceptual thought very tightly – you wish to abide in that purest state of presence 24/7. This clinging prevents us from experiencing Presence AS the Transience. This is a form of clinging to something non-conceptual. So know that going beyond concepts does not mean overcoming the view of inherency and its resultant clinging clinging. Even in the substantial non-dual phase, there is still clinging to a Source, a One Mind – even though experience is non-dual and non-conceptual. But when inherent view is dissolved, we see there is absolutely nothing we can cling to, and this is the beginning of Right View and the Path to Nirvana - the cessation of clinging and craving.

-This is what gives me confidence in having attained I AM, and perhaps non-dual, but nothing more. I cant understand how people would settle with this, the way I see it is, if there is ANY form of conflict, even in the most subtle subtle way, even if your life has become incredibly liberated and 100 free-er than before, then you still have lots of work to do.

The Practice


I have read the difference between your gradual and direct, and feel Im doing both, as I mentioned a posts earlier, I have begun to drop the "no self" dogma, and tried to gear my practice elsewhere...

You can put self-inquiry aside. Instead you should focus on the four aspects, in my case with impersonality first, then later emphasis shifted to the aspect of intensity of luminosity (practice shifts from experiencing luminosity as the background Source to experiencing luminosity as the foreground sensate world and aggregates - sights, sounds, bodily sensations and so on), plus with a particular form of contemplation that challenges the view of boundaries, subject and object, inside and outside.

Could I ask what do you mean exactly by luminosity, I see you mention this quite a bit, but am unsure as to what you are referring to.



Regarding my practice, could you tell me if Im on the right track, whether Im wrong about what realizations Ive attained or not...


1. Ive began attempting to investigate the subject/object split (id been doing this for a while, but just not realizing I was doing it specifically the way it was described here, my descsription was that I was attempting to see how all experience was only that, an experience, e.g. 'that object over there is only an image here' etc etc).
2. Vipassana during sits, and during walks, and whever I think of it during the day.
3. Concentration breathing during sits, (usually I bring this into a more vipasssana excersise after approx 20 mins)
4. I spend alot of the rest of the day simply sinking into the reality around me , or experiencing no doer etc, however Im not sure if all this is productive, it doesnt feel productive, it more feels like im resting in whatever Ive attained so far.
5. Self inquiry,"is this the self?" from time to time, some intense looking also, basically a repeat of the direct pointing process I went through to attain the initial 'opening'.

Can I ask aswell, how did your progression in terms of reduction in suffering go? I know we all come from different 'suffering' backgrounds, my main one being fear over anything else.
Did each new insight/realization drop another chunk of suffering quite quickly? Was it a gradual thing? Did your stream of temporary experiences alone help you reduce suffering for the long term or were you completely reliant on realization?
Did you add anything else to the mix like challenging your beliefs if something is bothering you?
Personally I find simple breathing concentration is doing wonders, but I cant tell if its that, or the other types of insight that is contributing most. But I really wont be without any form of conflict until there is no fear, at least pscychological fear that arises from conceptual beleifs, ( what I mean by that is I wont mind if I feel fear/adrenalin if it looks like im about to be knocked down by a car for instance)

If Im to be perfecfly honesty, I even place the eradication of fear a priority over attaining all the realizations. While Ive made great progress, and while for the most part , nobody in my life would probably even notice any of my fear, I still find myself opting not to do tougher things, or at least putting things off out of fear. And I can say with confidence that since I was a child, fear and the protection of an ego have been the core reasons I have always "played it safe" and thus put limits on the experience of my life compare to even some very 'unawakened' people (ok off topic rant over !!)

I know this is a long post, if you can offer any help Id really appreciate it thanks.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 24/05/12 06:50
Created 12 anys ago at 24/05/12 06:47

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Anyway, getting back to practice.
DZ, thanks again for the subject/object reminder, its funny how you can hear something several times but the importance of it doesnt click properly until a certain stage in your path.

Ive been really giving focus on this during the day and its already yielding slight insight/experience.
It seems sometimes you can be half looking/investigating something, but due to a lack of words or guidance as to what you are doing its not clicking, so upon giving that more intense focus it doesnt take much to practice it.

My sits are really hit or miss the past few days. While Im always in a semi-alert and very relaxed state I still find myself being lost in very very subtle thought, not even bad thought , just thought of all sorts. Its hard to describe the difference between being lost in thought now during a sit, and being lost in thought even a few months ago, its like its in the background now or something, but still takes up my attention.

This obviously doesnt happen throughout the whole sit by any means, but enough to make me realize its not a high quality meditation session.
I also cant seem to break the 55min barrier , an energy overcomes me and sometimes I find myself stretching and opening my eyes before ive even realized it, even when I try get back to it, rarely do I get back into a completely relaxed tranquil state. The restlessness doesnt feel like tension in the way it would have before, more like an excitement, but a tension nonetheless.

Again, all very negative reports here, so on the upside, I can say that when I am in good concentration, there is some very solid investigation going on , trying to see 3Cs as much ass possible during a sit or a walk.
I also find myself in a state of high concentration alot more now naturally during the day than ever before.

Yesterday was a strange day, much of the first half of it, I was experiencing that on edge "fear" I do from time to time, it rarely happens anymore but still can come up alright. What I mean is, things just seem that small bit more difficult, as if Im a little more sensitive to potential fearful situations than usual. But then it faded fast by the evening.

I should probably stress, when I talk of fear, Im setting my standards high here, its not like im going around not wanting to talk to people , or are scared of every day situations, im quite a social person, and some might say , a bit of an extrovert to an extent. But when I say I want to have no psychological fear, I mean it quite literally. I want to be at a stage where no psychologically testing situation (that doesnt involve physical danger) can induce fear. Am I setting my standards too high? I dont think so, it seems part and parcel of attaining insight by many accounts. Maybe im still lost in the story/future/goal here, but Im just being honest in terms of where im at vs where I want to be.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 29/05/12 10:43
Created 12 anys ago at 29/05/12 10:42

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
quick update:
Ive been having some more huge changes the past few days, Id rather wait a week or so before going into detail cause I know how this stuff can behave.
Its been extraordinarily empty, blissful and peaceful at times, and its like everything is one big illusion including my body. Fear has taken another massive hit, but I need to test that in more challenging situations before I talk about it more.

Im going to be doing some cold calling for my business in the next few days, thats always a great time to test my discomfort levels!!
I knew 'something' was happening, my sleep was getting really bad and energetic again in the past few days.

However, leaving that aside for a small while Ill get back to posting about practice in a few hours.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 05/07/12 08:37
Created 12 anys ago at 05/07/12 08:28

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Well its been more than a month since I last posted, my practice in all aspects seemed strong with the exception of the sitting itself, I seemed to get worse AT it, but also started to neglect it and just sat there in a sort of bliss instead, maybe one in every 5 sits would be productive, the rest were strange sits where there would either be a dull sort of mind which i could rest with for a long time, or just a happiness or excitement and Id want to get up.

In the past several months I have been having strong shifts and changes, some times truly only experiencing with no experiencer, other times seeing emptiness in everything, other times being in states of utter happiness and peace, but then at times I was confused and things seemed paradoxical.

A few events in the past few days made me realize something though, all this time, as great as it has been , Ive been building up a massive enlightened ego (a term ive robbed from adyashanti), what I mean is, each shift, and each "wow this is true non duality" feeling would only cement this ego not get rid of it. What was happening to me was I completely losing touch of other aspects and ignoring them. The ego or moreso , idea, was all about creating circumstances in my head that things should be a certain way now that im attaining these insights.

And with that there was confusion over the paradox between trying to improve my life and practising this stuff, and also at times not knowing whether it was some sort of cycle in dark night, or if my problem was something I should genuinely be looking at.

I think its one issue that largely seems to be ignored here, but its something I consider the elephant in the room, basically your "stuff", lifes issues and problems , your core beliefs and ideas that are stopping you from enjoying a life you really want to enjoy etc. You could make the argument that practice has nothing to do with your stuff, and that no one claims that it solves your problems, but thats like comparing it to any other hobby or any other field of interest. In truth , we all have to admit that we get into this because we want a better more happy fulfilling life.

That said, I shouldnt be too harsh either, I rarely suffer now, quite the contrary actually ,and many other aspects of my life have been really cleaned up as a result of this practice. Even from when I arrived here and not really understanding while I could feel no self but still went through frustration, tension and suffering, to now , has been quite impressive if i do say so myself.

So , without letting that rant go on any further Ive a plan of action for the next few weeks or months.

1. Actually get back to doing proper productive sits, which include insight, concentration, and keep the standard and stop basking in my own sense of enlightenment.

2. Read and practice the Greg Goode emptiness stuff again, that yielded tremendous results, but i would imagine its something I must keep up and really work on.

3. (this is related to my rant above), start listening to some more Western teachers who seem to have a better grasp at "1st world problems" if you follow. Adyashanti I consider to a be a good one for this. Byron Katie another.

4. Get productive WITH what the Western teachers are talking about, try and write out all my beliefs and assumptions that are making me sometimes behave or not behave in a certain way, really try and get to the root of my beliefs.

5. Drop the enlightened ego, this may take some time. Its effectively a programming Ive created where I believe things are now suppose to be happening a certain way, and Im suppose to be acting a certain way because I do practice. Whereas that bullshit.

6. Start taking advice that comes from outside of the spiritual perspective more seriously. Listen to what people have to offer.


Anyway, im actually quite positive about all this. I know dark night brings up your stuff in an exaggerated way, but I think when hitting new paths or your basking in bliss, happiness and peace, you are just as much masking stuff as well.
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End in Sight, modificat fa 12 anys at 05/07/12 09:15
Created 12 anys ago at 05/07/12 09:14

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 1251 Data d'incorporació: 06/07/11 Publicacions recents
wylo .:
Well its been more than a month since I last posted, my practice in all aspects seemed strong with the exception of the sitting itself, I seemed to get worse AT it, but also started to neglect it and just sat there in a sort of bliss instead, maybe one in every 5 sits would be productive, (...) what I mean is, each shift, and each "wow this is true non duality" feeling would only cement this ego not get rid of it. (...) I think when hitting new paths or your basking in bliss, happiness and peace, you are just as much masking stuff as well.


Some practice suggestions:


CASE ONE

Examine whether, when you experience something that you associate with a shift and it cements your ego, there is

1) the shift: some change in your experience, some lack of a dualistic mental process that was previously occuring
2) a feeling about the shift: "wow, look at this shift / this experience, no (or less) duality!"

CASE TWO

Similarly, examine whether, when you're "basking in bliss", there is

1) the bliss: some kind of pleasantness that is prior to any reflection on it
2) a feeling about the bliss: "wow, this feels great!"

(In case two, it's easy to mix up the feeling about the bliss with the bliss itself. It may seem that the feeling about the bliss is the thing that's blissful...however, that is an illusion. Analyze carefully, go back to what we talked about earlier regarding apparent gaps in experience and see if the feeling of "wow, this feels great!" is associated with a momentary blurriness of experience.)

If you can distinguish bliss from a feeling about bliss, then, when you're experiencing both, you can work on figuring out how to incline your mind in a way that reduces or eliminates the feeling about bliss. (A good hint is, stop caring about it / clinging to it / mentally regarding it or interacting with it in any way / etc.)

Having accomplished that, you may find that the situation in case one is exactly analogous, and the solution is exactly analogous. (Certainly, a person's beliefs and goals are major players in solidifying one's ego around the idea "I'm so enlightened!", but only if the mind is giving rise to ego-experience in the first place. If you can subdue the process that creates the experience of ego, and do it consistently, the beliefs and goals related to ego-experience will also be subdued.)



A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 06/07/12 08:09
Created 12 anys ago at 06/07/12 06:09

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
End in Sight:

CASE ONE

Examine whether, when you experience something that you associate with a shift and it cements your ego, there is

1) the shift: some change in your experience, some lack of a dualistic mental process that was previously occuring
2) a feeling about the shift: "wow, look at this shift / this experience, no (or less) duality!"

CASE TWO

Similarly, examine whether, when you're "basking in bliss", there is

1) the bliss: some kind of pleasantness that is prior to any reflection on it
2) a feeling about the bliss: "wow, this feels great!"




Thanks, I think you pretty much nailed what my issue was,
In case 1, I had to an extent just mixed 1) and 2) together , even when attempting to be honest there was still no actual practice or mindfulness going , just a constant transition from blurry "wow look at this" to the shift itself without bothering to distinguish them.
As a matter of fact I think I may have even been arrogant enough to have a running blurry out of focus thought "Im not even experiencing that blurriness anymore" emoticon

In case 2, to be fair to me, I had made some headway in that if I felt bliss I would try and examine it and try to see there was no qualities in the physical feelings that made them "nice", i.e nice being just a concept/interpretation, but I think even in doing this I was giving the whole experience a value in itself thus cementing underlying ego thoughts "im feeling enlightened" , "this is how it should be and is going to be from now on", "i dont expect to feel crap anymore" etc etc.
So yea, just sort of disregarding it and getting back to proper practice of simple distinguishing between attention and non-attention is a better idea.


A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.


Out of curiosity how do you think someone could destroy it? Over examination of it and essentially "killing" it off?

Also, re: your suggestions of looking into Cyclothymia and Bypolar 2, its something I still havent done, I dont have any excuse for it really, and am aware that getting that sorted, be it finding out whether its an issue or not and getting it sorted if it is, could actually improve this whole practice tremendously. Im not sure would it be my GP or a professional therapist to approach, ill have to find out. Admittedly theres a bit of resistance there too though, I sort of wonder would drugs kill that ability to give something serious borderline compulsive focus and drive (even if it falls off at times).
I sort of look at the experiences I had in my life so far, and in a way I dont really regret trying all these different things, anyway, im just thinking out loud.
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Saul P, modificat fa 12 anys at 06/07/12 13:16
Created 12 anys ago at 06/07/12 13:16

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 2 Data d'incorporació: 08/02/11 Publicacions recents
A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.


How do you tell the difference between 'relishing' and gratitude/appreciation? Is it just one of those subtle flavor things that you come to discern?
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 07/07/12 13:46
Created 12 anys ago at 07/07/12 13:44

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Saul P:
A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.


How do you tell the difference between 'relishing' and gratitude/appreciation? Is it just one of those subtle flavor things that you come to discern?


Personally what I've found since last posting was that when I notice something is happening, I very quickly get lost and out of focus from the shift itself to "a shift is happening", thats fine and human, i think EISs point is to get back to being attentive without necessarily trying to take apart and 'destroy' the shift.

An analogy would be trying to light a fire by rubbing sticks, when you start to see some ambers, glowing and a tiny bit of smoke, you don't stop and look at them, you keep doing what got you that far in the first place.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 12/07/12 13:05
Created 12 anys ago at 12/07/12 07:02

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Since my last post things theres been a few key changes, Ive followed up on my plans (with the exception of the Greg Goode stuff)

EISs advice about discerning between shifts/feelings and the thoughts about them has done wonders and opened up alot of crap that Id be unaware Id been doing.

I can see clearly how resting in your shift/bliss REALLY contributes to the nurturing of an egoistic notion, as this notion gets stronger and stronger you can set yourself up for a fall. One bad reaction can leave you confused and annoyed.

It turns out Id be doing that alot more than I thought I was. Instead of staying grounded and continuing my efforts at being attentive I was resting in bliss etc.

The advantages of tackling this are three fold.
1. They stop those egoistic notions of enlightenment which can trap you in the long run (not saying they dont have their uses for motivation at times, but I feel at a stage where they are getting passed their sell by date for me)
2. I am practising more.
3. Im getting even closer to the understanding that this moment is perfectly fine as it is. To be more accurate, what I mean is, my attachment to where Im at, long term goals, past events,shifts , my story of liberation,and whether im feeling good or bad, are fading slowly but surely, and am closer and closer to now! While that stuff is useful, I think when abused it can become relatively dangerous.

Its not like Im trying to resist enjoying the benefits, more that I want to simply maintain mindfulness during it.

However despite all that, id be lying if I said the entire purpose of all this wasnt to feel as great as possible in the long term. Maybe thats another trap.


As for my other plans, Ive been working on some of my beliefs and notions that ignite reaction in me. I simply dont think meditation and mindfulness alone can deconstruct some untapped beliefs that can cause me to suffer when something happens. I could go weeks without getting to that part of my belief system so its possible I can be unaware of stuff and be very content only for a reaction to occur and for me to be surprised. A good example recently was a friend lying to me about something (only trivial crap), but Ive applied Byron Katies "the work" on it, and I have to say, I find it very effective as an add-on tool. It just really really exposes what is actually going on when you are caught in a bullshit situation.



My sits have improved ALOT, ive decided to reduce the time a bit to make my targets more achievable. I do pure concentration of the breath , usually when that gets extremely quiet I will begin to investigate the rest of my experience during the sit, including the breath.

Regarding my life, and motivation issues etc. I think I am finally finding peace with the notion of working off two levels of "truth", and not trying to mix practice in with whatever conventional stuff is going on in my life. This is good imo because ive heard the mention of a spiritual shipwreck before , and I think at the moment I may be one!!emoticon


While I havent had any major perceptual shifts, realizations or changes in the past week, I think Ive had several mini epiphanies that have been very important in understanding what Im actually doing here.
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End in Sight, modificat fa 12 anys at 20/07/12 06:49
Created 12 anys ago at 20/07/12 06:47

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 1251 Data d'incorporació: 06/07/11 Publicacions recents
wylo .:
End in Sight:

CASE ONE

Examine whether, when you experience something that you associate with a shift and it cements your ego, there is

1) the shift: some change in your experience, some lack of a dualistic mental process that was previously occuring
2) a feeling about the shift: "wow, look at this shift / this experience, no (or less) duality!"

CASE TWO

Similarly, examine whether, when you're "basking in bliss", there is

1) the bliss: some kind of pleasantness that is prior to any reflection on it
2) a feeling about the bliss: "wow, this feels great!"




Thanks, I think you pretty much nailed what my issue was,
In case 1, I had to an extent just mixed 1) and 2) together , even when attempting to be honest there was still no actual practice or mindfulness going , just a constant transition from blurry "wow look at this" to the shift itself without bothering to distinguish them.
As a matter of fact I think I may have even been arrogant enough to have a running blurry out of focus thought "Im not even experiencing that blurriness anymore" emoticon


It's definitely worth examining how you let this come about...if I, not having your experience, was able to infer that this is what was going on with you, then you, having your experience, are in a much better position to catch this sort of thing in the future before it starts to interfere with your practice.


wylo:
In case 2, to be fair to me, I had made some headway in that if I felt bliss I would try and examine it and try to see there was no qualities in the physical feelings that made them "nice", i.e nice being just a concept/interpretation,


This is good insight (that "bliss" is not blissful or pleasant, but rather, the idea that it's pleasant arises in contrast to the facts), but you should keep in mind that there's a superior kind of experience (which you might also call "bliss", though I think "pleasure" is a better word) that is "nice" by its very nature, not dependent on concepts or interpretation. (There is also a further important insight to have concerning it, but you can figure it out once you get there.) Stronger concentration and more relaxation should produce it for you.


wylo:
A shorter summary: don't relish any experience, and, if you can consistently bring up bliss and peace and etc., be absolutely ruthless in distinguishing between the experience and the relishing of it, and in letting go of subtler and subtler forms of relishing, without destroying the experience. Ego = relishing = unhappiness that masquerades as happiness.


Out of curiosity how do you think someone could destroy it? Over examination of it and essentially "killing" it off?


If the experience depends on relaxation, for example, but you get worked up in your examination of it, then that will kill it off.

wylo:
Also, re: your suggestions of looking into Cyclothymia and Bypolar 2, its something I still havent done, I dont have any excuse for it really, and am aware that getting that sorted, be it finding out whether its an issue or not and getting it sorted if it is, could actually improve this whole practice tremendously. Im not sure would it be my GP or a professional therapist to approach, ill have to find out. Admittedly theres a bit of resistance there too though, I sort of wonder would drugs kill that ability to give something serious borderline compulsive focus and drive (even if it falls off at times).


If you get diagnosed but don't like what the medication you're prescribed does to you, you can take a lower dose so that the balance of pros and cons works out more to your liking, or take a different medication, or just stop and let your mind be the way it's always been. No harm done, I assume. And this way you find out whether there could be big, easy-to-reap benefits from partially or wholly treating a condition you may have.
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An Eternal Now, modificat fa 12 anys at 20/07/12 13:21
Created 12 anys ago at 20/07/12 13:15

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 638 Data d'incorporació: 15/09/09 Publicacions recents
Hi, sorry I don't always have the resource to surf this forum or the internet (especially on weekdays when I am in camp), only get to see your post now.


- I cant say i can relate to this, at least not until you talk of it being experience in a NDNCDIMOP way.
Then you are having NDNCDIMOP, not I AM realization.


That said,since March, most of my days are like a subtle version of your description, sometimes a little more boring but there, other times very intense, that leaves me not being sure whether Im still in 'experience' mode or if Ive actually attained the insight. I know it may seem arrogant and presumptious to beleive Im hitting these type of realizations so soon, but I can honestly say that a simple walk down the street, or sitting out the back garden is , for the most part, a very enjoyable experience for me now, i.e. if the settings are just right (warm, sunny, slightly breezy) I could sit there for quite a while watching a tree blowing in the wind., not to mention a sort of wonder at the fact that there is no real distance or seperation between "me" and the tree(or whatever). I know this is very airy fairy sounding stuff, but I have to honestly convey that it is the core of my experience now.
That is the experience of non-dual. There is a difference between having intermittent experiences of non-dual rather than non-dual insight. Non-dual insight means realizing there never was duality, seeing and seen has always been seamless and nondual. This is not non-dual as a state, but realizing non-dual as always already the case, there is in seeing always just the seamlessness of seeing/seen without a separate observer, and clearly seeing through the construct of subject-object, inside and outside, as delusory/false. As for your "there is no real distance or seperation" - if you meant a temporary state where separation collapses in an experience of fusing, this is a temporary non-dual state. Non-dual realization is the sudden, direct, understanding that "there Never Is/Was in truth any real distance or subject-object seperation, and this is always already the case". In One Mind it may lead to the understanding that "Awareness is always already its own perception", that all perceptions are always only Awareness itself.

Note that even is not yet the realization of anatta, which is not just seamlessness of seeing/seen but the realization that there is no agent, no watcher, behind a thought or a perception. This is different from non-dual insight, as non-dual insight is more about seamlessness of subject and object, where seer, seeing, and seen are collapsed in one vivid luminosity.

As Thusness wrote to me before in 2010,

In the article on http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html, I mentioned about the 2 stanza. There is the no-agent aspect and there is the intensity of luminosity aspect. I find that your present experience is still centered on the luminosity aspect. You are directly experiencing seamlessness of any happening where no clear line of demarcation can be drawn between the subject-object split. You realized the boundary is purely illusionary and is clear about the cause that resulted in such division but still, that is not the ‘essence’ of an experiential insight of anatta in my opinion. There is a difference in saying "there is no split between thinking and thinker, the thinking itself is 'me'" and "there is thinking, no thinker". You must be aware that having immediate and direct experience but with dualistic framework intact and complete replacement of the dualistic framework entirely with DO (dependent origination) yields very different experiential insight; you may want to investigate further and move from "they are all flowing independently" to "manifesting in seamless inter-dependencies."

- This reminds me of my experience now, I can definitely relate to this clinging/trap/beleif.
Contemplating Thusness first stanza will lead to insight of anatta and that might help.

- I fear this is what I may be doing right now, also , im not sure if im ever hitting those temporary peak experiences.
There is completely no you, only a thought, a sight, a sound, etc. The difference between one mind is that in one mind, there is still this tracing back to a source, or seeing the source to be inseparable from its manifestation. In no mind, there is only manifestation, only action, only the flow, no source, self/Self whatsoever. But no-mind is a state of experience, not a realization of anatta, and cannot be made effortless or seamless without the realization.
1. Ive began attempting to investigate the subject/object split (id been doing this for a while, but just not realizing I was doing it specifically the way it was described here, my descsription was that I was attempting to see how all experience was only that, an experience, e.g. 'that object over there is only an image here' etc etc).
2. Vipassana during sits, and during walks, and whever I think of it during the day.
3. Concentration breathing during sits, (usually I bring this into a more vipasssana excersise after approx 20 mins)
4. I spend alot of the rest of the day simply sinking into the reality around me , or experiencing no doer etc, however Im not sure if all this is productive, it doesnt feel productive, it more feels like im resting in whatever Ive attained so far.
5. Self inquiry,"is this the self?" from time to time, some intense looking also, basically a repeat of the direct pointing process I went through to attain the initial 'opening'.
That sounds good. Contemplating on Thusness two stanzas of anatta will also help in addition to what you are doing. Steve Norquist in his non-dual article http://www.spiritualteachers.org/norquist_article.htm also wrote, "If I could teach the world a lesson it would be, no matter what you experience always remind yourself, “There is no experiencer, there is no observer.” If you do this long enough and often enough you will one day know what's going on."

Did each new insight/realization drop another chunk of suffering quite quickly? Was it a gradual thing?
Gradual.

Personally I find simple breathing concentration is doing wonders, but I cant tell if its that, or the other types of insight that is contributing most. But I really wont be without any form of conflict until there is no fear, at least pscychological fear that arises from conceptual beleifs, ( what I mean by that is I wont mind if I feel fear/adrenalin if it looks like im about to be knocked down by a car for instance)

If Im to be perfecfly honesty, I even place the eradication of fear a priority over attaining all the realizations. While Ive made great progress, and while for the most part , nobody in my life would probably even notice any of my fear, I still find myself opting not to do tougher things, or at least putting things off out of fear. And I can say with confidence that since I was a child, fear and the protection of an ego have been the core reasons I have always "played it safe" and thus put limits on the experience of my life compare to even some very 'unawakened' people (ok off topic rant over !!)

I know this is a long post, if you can offer any help Id really appreciate it thanks.

Thusness wrote something which may be relevant:


Delete
Blogger PasserBy said...

Hi Buddha Bra,

‘Psychological pain’ is directly related to our ‘sense of self’. The sense of self is directly related our deeply rooted ‘inherent and dualistic thought’. This pain is an indication that we have not fully recognized the cause and many faces of the arising ‘sense of Self/self’ and that includes the attempt to remain as an unaffected passive observer. If we prescribe the wrong medicine, then there is no cure. Therefore your experience that “remaining as a detach observer doesn’t seem to eliminate the pain and anxiety yet breathing exercises and some physical exercises do” is a precious realization. There are 2 parts to it.

First we must realize why we equate ‘detachment’ to this ‘unaffected and passive observer’. It is due to an incomplete insight of our pristine yet non-dual and empty nature of awareness. It is partly due to our direct and non-conceptual experience of our “Unborn, pristine and luminous nature “of awareness and partly due to the karmic tendency of solidify experience. When this direct experience is understood from the lens of a ”dualistic and inherent” framework, it is natural that we view “a passive observer” as the way to solve this psychological pain.

Second, in addition to the ‘unborn, pristine and luminous’ aspect of awareness, we must have a more thorough and deeper insight into our ‘intimate, inseparable, non-dual and dependent originated’ aspect of Awareness. This relates to why “breathing exercises and some physical exercises is able to relieve psychological pain". We must directly and deeply experience what is meant by “inseparable” from the transient and understand “beingness” is never apart from whatever arises.

Lastly what that is ‘unborn, pristine and luminous’ cannot be “dependent and inseparable from the transient” appears sound only logically but not experientially. It will first seem illogical and unnatural to accept such an idea, but when the tendency to dualify and solidify experience subsides, then scenery, taste, scent, sound, breathe, the sensation of our feet touching the ground…all arising will help lighten this psychological pain. Therefore fearlessly, unreservedly and completely open to whatever arises.

- comments section of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html
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An Eternal Now, modificat fa 12 anys at 20/07/12 13:44
Created 12 anys ago at 20/07/12 13:29

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 638 Data d'incorporació: 15/09/09 Publicacions recents
wylo:
If Im to be perfecfly honesty, I even place the eradication of fear a priority over attaining all the realizations.
Be very careful how you approach 'fear'. When approached by the wrong way, which is by 'dualifying and solidifying', you are falling into what Thusness calls 'applying the wrong medicine' in which there will be 'no cure' and instead strengthening the propensities, sense of self, and increasing the suffering. Instead of strengthening the sense of self, your entire practice must be based on right view (of no-self and dependent origination/emptiness), so as to dissolve all self/Self until there is only this whole process which is self-liberating on its own accord. When all sense of self/Self dissolves (and herein, realization of anatta and emptiness becomes important), there is naturally no more 'fear'. But fighting fear by resistance (attempting to suppress by hard will), dissociation (such as becoming a detached watcher), and all kinds of contrived action only serves to increase the very sense of self that is causing them (as Thusness said, 'The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’').

These might be helpful for fear (in fact the same advice apply for all emotional and sensate processes), they are all important:


On Maha, Thusness (2006):

“Fear is just like Self, is a process being molded into a label. What hides behind this label is a vivid process of involvement, interplay between the causes, conditions giving rise to all appearances. The activity is alive and vivid. The flow of blood, the pulsating of the heart beats, the humming of the aircon, the cold air touches the skin, awareness is all these. It is a mere knowingness without effort to recognize anything, it is one whole sensing. All true knowledge must evolve from the mere Presence.”

Thusness:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/09/six-stages-of-dropping.html

Six Stages of Dropping

First is ‘someone’ is dropping…
Second is dropping appears as a mirror reflecting…
Third is there is only endless dropping without footing and mental reasoning…
Fourth is dropping as vivid wide opening…
Fifth is vivid wide opening as everything…
Sixth is only Dharma spontaneously manifesting…

......

Simpo:

Dear Friends,

If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must not argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling that is being felt at that moment.

You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.

If this persist long enough, something ‘magical’ will be percieved…

......

This is by Jean Klein:

Questioner: In certain situations in life I feel blocked by a fear which prevents me from acting. How can I be free from this obstacle?

Jean Klein: First free yourself from the word, the concept, ‘fear’. It is loaded with memory. Face only the perception. Accept the sensation
completely. When the personality who judges and controls is completely absent, when there is no longer a psychological relationship with the
sensation, it is really welcomed and unfolds. Only in welcoming without a welcomer can there be real transformation.

We are in essence one with all existence; when we truly observe ourselves there is ultimately no observer, only observation – awareness.

“In simple openness which is welcoming you will come to accept and get to know your negative feelings, desires and fears. Once welcomed and nondirected attention to these feelings will burn themselves up, leaving only silence. “

~ Jean Klein

.......

This is by Thusness:

"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. emoticon "

~ our forummer, Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force urself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 15/08/12 17:50
Created 12 anys ago at 15/08/12 17:42

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
I really dont keep this thread going enough, often im not in the mood or just feel there is nothing I can write, other times I do have good intentions but am just too lazy. No point in pretending now that im going to suddenly write more from now on!

Anyway, back to the topic,
AEN and EIS, your pointers are great, thanks!

My practice now sort of amalgamates various pointers as I believe they are all sort of related,

It consists of a concentrated effort, as best I can, on my senses (this would be in my regular hours) + the 2 stanzas recommended by AEN (also my regular hours) + during a sit, breathing and concentration effort until I decide its the "right time" to begin to investigate the three characteristics (when actually sitting down to meditate). I really feel the last bit is necessary if I want to progress. I dont think concentration meditation is good enough on its own, it makes you feel good and stable and helps clear up the mind, and definitely contributes to happiness. But I do have an urge to move forward progress and attainment wise. I cant help but think that getting real attainments lock in some clarity permanently, this isnt necessarily something I can get from high concentration breathing practice alone.

My only problem is that I really should be bringing the sits back up to an hour a day, I can tell they dont have the quality they should have. My other problem is I cant seem to find the discipline to investigate the 3 characeristics unless im actually in a sit, the rest is fine during the day, but not that bit for some reason. I guess it requires complete devoted attention.

Just to add another note to what Im doing practice wise, I sometimes leave my attempt to be engaged in sense experience,and go back into the world of thought content, so I can dig into some beliefs and I use my own version of what Byron Katie teaches. It really helps undo some reactive suffering that can take you by surprise.

My method is basically to write out what Im believing, as in the core believe behind a bad reaction "someone should be behaving this way", "they shouldnt be doing that", "I care about what was said there", "this issue matters to me because...".."im not supposed to have felt fear there"..."I shouldnt have reacted like that"

I then try and go deeper and see what THOSE beliefs reveal by seeing even deeper more underlying beliefs so
"someone should be behaving this way..." -> means -> "I have an egoistic view that pushed on causes a reaction" etc etc etc.

I try do this until I have exhausted all the beliefs I can think of, and then begin to write out what the actual truth behind the situation is. I address each belief and write out how its not the case. When doing this I try my best to relive the situation to invoke emotion. But that bit doesnt always work tbh. I think my imagination has gotten too weak now at this stage.


Regarding my issues in the previous posts, Ive taken a long look at these the past few weeks

AEN said:
Be very careful how you approach 'fear'. When approached by the wrong way, which is by 'dualifying and solidifying', you are falling into what Thusness calls 'applying the wrong medicine' in which there will be 'no cure' and instead strengthening the propensities, sense of self, and increasing the suffering. Instead of strengthening the sense of self, your entire practice must be based on right view (of no-self and dependent origination/emptiness), so as to dissolve all self/Self until there is only this whole process which is self-liberating on its own accord. When all sense of self/Self dissolves (and herein, realization of anatta and emptiness becomes important), there is naturally no more 'fear'. But fighting fear by resistance (attempting to suppress by hard will), dissociation (such as becoming a detached watcher), and all kinds of contrived action only serves to increase the very sense of self that is causing them (as Thusness said, 'The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’').


I was STILL considering fear a bad thing until recently, although it was sliding off me, and although there was a much deeper acceptance , there was still this tiny voice in my head saying "you shouldnt be feeling that", thankfully Ive addressed this issue now (using the above method), and it seems to have helped greatly.

EIS wrote this regarding my issue of not discerning between actual shifts/bliss/etc and me creating a belief/assumption and thought that I was experiencing it:
It's definitely worth examining how you let this come about...if I, not having your experience, was able to infer that this is what was going on with you, then you, having your experience, are in a much better position to catch this sort of thing in the future before it starts to interfere with your practice.


Well Ive been examining this as closely as possible, and sort of retraining myself not to fall into this trap again, but it has become quite apparent to me how much i was actually doing it. It was a bit of wake up call, but it has helped because I no longer create egoistic assumptions about any experience, at least Ive made great headway in reducing it. So now when I have a mini-shift or feel great etc, I watch out for the deep assumptions that dont even require words yet I still think them, stuff like "this means from now on, things will be this way" , "this is really non dual, this shit really works, I can ease off on my practice right now". I dont consciously think that stuff, thats just my attempt to put into words what kind of assumptions are building up.


Another issue Im having, which Ive discussed with Tommy elsewhere is the recurring feeling of anticipation , during days after alot of practice, I experience little small changes and views occur constantly, slight shifts and mood changes, or even more extreme shifts where I feel closer to another path or something. And every time the tinyest thing happens a thought arises "is this it?" , "is something happening?" I am wasting alot of time with this recurring thought,and only feeding into the story and out of direct experience. He advised to try and discern what that feeling + thought actually is. Ive began a process of digging very deep and dissecting the phenomenon into its parts, ie the slight tension that comes with it, the minds increase in business, the almost instant striving for something conceptual and the avoidance of the senses. All this can happen in a half of a second. Thankfully practice has given me the clarity to able to recognise this happening in nearly real time. However I still need to learn how to stop doing it.

Perhaps I should take my Byron Katie-esque approach above with it to see does it dissolve the thought itself by disregarding every belief based around it.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 15/08/12 18:06
Created 12 anys ago at 15/08/12 18:06

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Just thought Id add one more comment on this whole process, I find that when I begin to truly drop an issue that would have caused suffering in the past I dont feel a great relief. Not to say its not fantastic that something has stopped happening ,be it a mild irritation, a strange fear , unnecessary anger, or a protection of ego. But what I mean is, it sometimes feels like once that issue is no longer an issue, it never WAS an issue.

Is this a problem ? Not really, once its gone its gone , who cares, but it just makes progress difficult to quantify sometimes, and that can be a cause for a potential lack of motivation, and all of a sudden your next issue that by rights shouldnt feel that big a deal, now feels almost as important as the last thing you finally got over.

Maybe thats confusing, but what I mean is , sometimes I set my own standards so high that I tend to wonder have I made any progress at all. I think the solution to this is to ask myself, how much more hours in the day do I spend in peace than I used to before? If I look at that carefully, Im sure Ill be pleasantly surprised.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 16/08/12 08:17
Created 12 anys ago at 16/08/12 08:17

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Ive decided to get a bit more practical and log on a daily basis every sit, it should require little effort:

Today:
Time: 1hr 10 mins focus on breath for 25 mins and into sense experience and examination for the remainder. It incuded 2 break of approx 2 mins each, which consisted of having my eyes open. I hope in the future not to have these at all, but I find I get alot more quality and time out of a sit if I allow myself this for now.
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End in Sight, modificat fa 12 anys at 16/08/12 09:16
Created 12 anys ago at 16/08/12 09:08

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 1251 Data d'incorporació: 06/07/11 Publicacions recents
wylo:
EIS wrote this regarding my issue of not discerning between actual shifts/bliss/etc and me creating a belief/assumption and thought that I was experiencing it:
It's definitely worth examining how you let this come about...if I, not having your experience, was able to infer that this is what was going on with you, then you, having your experience, are in a much better position to catch this sort of thing in the future before it starts to interfere with your practice.


Well Ive been examining this as closely as possible, and sort of retraining myself not to fall into this trap again, but it has become quite apparent to me how much i was actually doing it.


To me this indicates that your concentration during practice needed (and needs) to be much stronger. Concentration ultimately dispels this kind of thinking, and when concentration is reduced and it comes back, it's generally quite clear how unpleasant and unsatisfactory thinking in that way is.

Another thing about concentration is, when you have a lot of it, you should be able to notice an obvious sensation of pleasure. You mentioned before noticing that a lot of "bliss" isn't pleasant by itself, but is only pleasant due to thinking about it that way:

I had made some headway in that if I felt bliss I would try and examine it and try to see there was no qualities in the physical feelings that made them "nice", i.e nice being just a concept/interpretation,


That's a good observation, and you can use the presence of "bliss" that is pleasant by itself, independently of what you think or believe, as a marker for stronger concentration. What you're noticing and rightly rejecting as not really nice is an example of the way that the mind grasps at things and builds an identity around them (in this case, the identity of "I feel good"...which is what you're calling the concept / interpretation).

I dont think concentration meditation is good enough on its own, it makes you feel good and stable and helps clear up the mind, and definitely contributes to happiness. But I do have an urge to move forward progress and attainment wise. I cant help but think that getting real attainments lock in some clarity permanently, this isnt necessarily something I can get from high concentration breathing practice alone.


Maybe seeing even stronger concentration will change your mind about this.

If you can improve your concentration, then a great way to investigate is like this: concentrate until there's a palpable difference in your experience, and then (very gently) assess

1) is it more pleasant / less unpleasant this way?
2) the addition or subtraction or alteration of which sensations is responsible for that?
3) what unexpected qualities do those sensations carry (e.g. a sense of "I", a sense of "looking", a sense of inhabiting different parts of your body).

When your concentration fades a bit, you can examine these issues at the moment of fading. And over the long term you should work to improve your concentration so that you keep assessing subtler and subtler sensations, sensations which you may not even realize you're experiencing until you can assess them via stronger concentration.

If your concentration is leaving you at the point where you have a sense of stability, what sensation is responsible for that? How much concentration would you need for that sensation to disappear?

So now when I have a mini-shift or feel great etc, I watch out for the deep assumptions that dont even require words yet I still think them, stuff like "this means from now on, things will be this way" , "this is really non dual, this shit really works, I can ease off on my practice right now". I dont consciously think that stuff, thats just my attempt to put into words what kind of assumptions are building up.


Seeing this in real-time is good. If you can see how these things correspond in some way to some sensation that arises when you subtly think these thoughts, that would be good too. (At first you might notice a sense of tension but not quite be able to pinpoint where / what it is.)

You should assume that you're always having subtle thoughts like this, though not always about the same topics. Where are they the rest of the time? If you can see them, it will help your concentration, and if you can concentrate well, you'll see them more overtly.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 22/08/12 15:57
Created 12 anys ago at 22/08/12 15:57

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
update: Things have been really hectic for me the past week or so, in a good way , new job, new housemates etc, but alot of my attention has been soaked up by all this, which is interesting in itself, some old 'stuff' came up when starting the new job, but what was interesting was how weak it was and how quickly it fell away. (im talking about mild stresses, or the notions of wanting to impress and stressing at the notion that I might not be, but within minutes those notions lost their traction)

Ill report probably in the next day or two, unfortunately ive only done 2 sits reading EISs post, both putting in full concentration effort. Itll probably have been the first time since all this started that all this hasnt been at the forefront of my attention, although funnily enough, as things are quickly settling and Im falling back into a routine again, I can feel my drive for being as attentive as possible growing stronger again, thankfully.
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wylo , modificat fa 12 anys at 08/09/12 08:41
Created 12 anys ago at 08/09/12 08:40

RE: Wylos Practice

Apunts: 166 Data d'incorporació: 18/11/11 Publicacions recents
Practice has been at its worst since Ive started posting on Dho, in that it hasnt been happening. My life has been fairly consumed the past month or so with new changes and also the fact that I have to learn something for a new job which takes up a huge amount of my time mentally.

Ironically , all these changes wouldnt have happened or at least wouldnt have been so smooth if it wasnt for practice in the first place so as soon as things settle Ill get back to proper disciplined practice.

Also , Ive realized that sorting out your conventional life issues, and giving them genuine serious attention offers great peace as well. Its just an entire area of my life that I was tackling, and is at the moment, no longer an issue at all.

EIS, you're right about concentration , I think I was just getting a little lost on trying to achieve recognised insights and path moments again, and forgetting that extremely high levels of concentration actually yield exactly what I would be attempting to attain. And its true, every single assumption, delusion, and egoic thought is a result of a lack of attention and concentration. How couldnt it be?

I think my only doubt was in my thinking I had to be following Ingram style rules of insight practice to actually be permanently moving forward in terms of insight, but in truth, concentration fits it all together very very neatly.

Even though I havent been up to much in this area the past month, there has still been a fairly significant shift happening by itself, which makes me think I may even have hit another path or insight, I cant really describe it at the moment, mainly because I just feel like im describing more of the same so it just gets repetitive , so I think the best way I can describe it is by using conventional examples of things that have fallen away, which ill do in my next post. Im happy I wrote my list of "issues" in the first few posts because I can reference them now and compare.

Im not going to write an actual practice post until I am confident that I am consistently doing sits every single day again.
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