Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

I sort of realized this morning that it is possible to meditate quasi-correctly(!) on autopilot, just like we can drive a car on autopilot. By correct, I mean that noting labels are properly applied and accurate, even if I'm not really paying attention. It seems to me, that the antidote-to-meditation on autopilot is to pay attention to the noted objects, to see-what-I-see, hear-what-I-hear, etc. Is that correct? Does anyone have additional comments? Am I mistaken about really being "on autopilot"? If _I_ apply _effort_ to _be there_ am I reinforcing a sense of self or doing anything I shouldn't be?

You should probably note that you are "on autopilot."

The fact that you feel you are on autopilot implies that there is a stream of mental activity that you are not noting - so you should start noting that.

D

New labels to add to my repertoire:
1. (sense of meditating/guiding/willful self) "returning" (from autopilot)
2. "false note" (or simply "internal talk" because if I wasn't paying attention then I didn't note anything)

Maybe I should strengthen my concentration, too. I'll explore this.

Please let me know if my response implies I didn't understand your suggestion. Thanks!

-Mark

No, I think you got it alright.

I was musing about this a bit though - usually when I find that I am on autopilot, I am daydreaming about something else - let's say I'm driving home, I might start thinking about something from work, etc. As far as I know, I don't miss a beat driving though. I was wondering, has noting for this person become so automatic that he does it and can still leave part of his attention for other things like daydreaming about work - that is, when he's on autopilot, what is he thinking about, and is he really noting then (implied by the "false note" above)? If he is actually noting , maybe he should continue the automatic noting, and begin noting what he is thinking about while on autopilot - two streams of noting if you will. A third stream might develop after a while...

This is rather like what happens with aural sigils (intent encoded in a mantra) in practical magick - one begins a chant, and then that becomes automatic, and one's mind wanders., one becomes aware of that, and then one is creating the mantra internally, then a third stream of attention arises, again that is subverted to the concentration on the sound of the mantra - after a while one cannot sustain the multiple streams of attention and the cognitive dissonance produced by trying causes a breakdown and one slips into "gnosis" (one pointed concsciousness or non-dual concentration state). The same thing could happen with a noting practice leading to a nondual insight.

Anyway, you'll have to notice whether you are actually noting or not, and if so, begin noting what it is that you are attending to with the rest of your consciousness. If not, then it is just a matter of noting that you are not noting and get back to work. David

Your examples make sense. I would have to say that I don't think it's real noting. It's like a song is stuck in my head, except the song is intelligent and it reacts in predictable ways to external stimuli. I think I'm going to treat it for now just like the rest of internal talk.

With respect to your comments about layers of mantras, it is an interesting parallel. I have noticed in meditation where I'll have a thought, then buzzing thoughts about the thought, then a third layer of buzzing thought commenting on the dynamic of the first two. This is all happening while I'm doing simple noting and on protocol, and I manage to more or less note all of it. Things get metaphorically blurred and fuzzy after that, somewhat like the sensation of cognitive dissonance as you say (and I attempt to note everything as best I can as it happens), and then I recover back to a simpler phenomenological experience and continue with noting more gross objects.

Anyway, fun to think about. When in doubt, note everything, including doubt...

Author: buffduff

From what I understand of the noting practice from Mahasi Sayadaw's booklet Practical Insight Meditation, he advises that the noting be _nonverbal_ and perhaps even implies _non-conceptual_. In other words, just pay attention precisely, but without thinking about what you are paying attention to.

Are you labeling experience verbally? If so, that might be more thinking to note non-verbally.

I've noticed that sometimes doing some verbal noting can help me be more precise, but dropping back into non-conceptual noting helps shake the sense that "I" am meditating.

>> he advises that the noting be _nonverbal_

I see what you're saying from page 4 of the Google books version, but reading farther, I'm pretty sure that's only for one component of the practice. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, upon further examination a few months ago, I read it to mean that only the following of the abdomen was nonverbal. Everything after the initial abdomen/breath instructions seems to imply verbal noting.

So, nonverbal while following the breath and waiting for something to note. If something notable comes up, note it verbally.

Thoughts, anyone?

Author: buffduff

Ah, I guess it isn't clear in Sayadaw's writing. No wonder there are different opinions!

This question was given some opinions in a previous thread here: http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/1244837/Noting+Practice+Questions

In that thread, Daniel says that noting verbally is ok as a method to get to the point where noting happens so quickly that you notice directly. Seems like a middle-path that agrees with my experience too.

Yeah, it wasn't totally clear to me after fairly careful reading. (Maybe something lost in translation??) Anyway, cool linked thread above. Thanks. -M

So far as I've learned, from those who studied with Mahasi and U Pandita the notes are of necessity verbal. That being said, it's also true that one can drop the noting and simply observe the flow of phenomenal experience, and that is still very much vipassana. Just as Duff said, there are phases (particularly the A&P and equanmity) where mental noting can feel cumbersome. It becomes like hitting a nail with a jack-hammer. The weird thing though is that things can shift in the practice again, and then noting is really helpful--which doesn't mean there is any sort of back-sliding happening. Rather one has to gain mastery of the new territory, which takes the extra help of the noting, before the noting can be dropped.

Then there's the interesting point about the spiritual path itself being like this, where in the beginning more formal techniques, like noting or body-scanning, are essential to reaching some of the initial milestones (perhaps even up through the 3rd stage of enlightenment) and then there can feel like a shift toward less structured techniques, but there still being a swing between difficult and more effortless periods where one uses formal techniques when needed. Same pattern but happening at a larger scale. I guess that's part of the reason that "the arhant fractal is vast."

Regarding Noting technique and whether the word is conceptual or non-conceptual, the way I understand the instructions is that the note should be verbal and conceptual but the noting should not overpower the sensation itself. Often, when I find myself on autopilot, I'm just doing the internal verbal part and am not tuning into the sensation. The act of remembering and refocusing usually involves re-establishing the balance between the conceptual internal dialogue of the actual noting and non-conceptual direct perception of the object. The latter should be far more prominent than the former. I've heard some of the western insight teachers clarify this discussion by pointing out that the label should be about 5% of the focus of the mind and the actual sensory experience should be 95%.

Lee

I totally agree with you, Lee. In my experience noting was helpful to tune into vibratory quality in the beginning but now as my concentration is stronger it seems to solidify more subtle sensations. When I´m with really fine and fast vibrations and then start noting I usually fall into a much grosser sphere of sensations. For me noting has a strong effort/energy aspect to it that distroys the balance and clarity when being with subtle sensations. I can also relate to your statement of only doing the verbal part and missing the actual sensations.

Awesome post, Lee. That really helps.